Guild Wars 2

LS3E4 has caused a lot of commotion in regards to the nature of Queen Jennah and Logan Thackeray’s romantic subplot, and it seemed appropriate to start a thread about it. Is it a retcon? Is this how Queen Jennah has always seen Logan? Where is this subplot heading? Or what are your general thoughts and feelings on this?

My general thought on this is:

Logan was never going to be viewed by the Krytan establishment of being worthy of being Prince Consort while acting like a glorified bodyguard.

If she ever wants it to be possible for them to be a couple, she needs to push him away so he can make a name for himself as someone who can be a near-equal rather than a lovesick puppy. There’s no guarantee even then, but there’s no chance if he doesn’t prove himself a leader in a context where he isn’t Jennah’s subordinate. A Pact Marshal who manages to get another dragon or two down under his command may well get there.

It’s also possible that any feelings she may have had have faded – familiarity breeds contempt and all. What makes her motivations hard to predict is that her behaviour will be much the same either way – if she’s not interested she’ll push him away just because she’s not interested, and if she is interested she’ll push him away because it’s never going to happen without him proving himself.

One other thing to consider, although it might not be popular in some circles:

Jennah took the throne young, but she’s held it for thirteen and a half years now. There’s also no clear heir: there’s evidence that the orders know who’s next in line, but the existence of an heir at all seems to be a closely guarded secret. For those who want to see the line preserved, she’s got to be facing pressure to choose a consort and produce an heir sooner rather than later.

I’ve gone through the story twice now, the second time looking for this pushing away of Logan. I feel rather dense because clearly from forum comments it is a thing, but I can’t spot it. I mean at the end, his reactions bear it out, but what specifically showcases it? I might have been distracted by other things in the instance(s), or I might just be blind here.

I saw her asking him not to reduce his effectiveness by getting killed, which hardly seemed lacking in affection. So what dialogue is being interpreted as “friend-zoning” him? Answers welcome!

It started in the novel, Edge of Destiny, which was published before the game’s launch.

It’s not a bad little book and makes the most recent happening make a little more sense.

I don’t want to spoil any more than that.

No, I read that. I mean, what in this episode has people talking like Jennah has put Logan in his place?

Except Queen Jenna isn’t real, its Anise, who also is Livia.

Warlord.9074:

Except Queen Jenna isn’t real, its Anise, who also is Livia.

She’s also Lazarus!

Donari.5237:

I’ve gone through the story twice now, the second time looking for this pushing away of Logan. I feel rather dense because clearly from forum comments it is a thing, but I can’t spot it. I mean at the end, his reactions bear it out, but what specifically showcases it? I might have been distracted by other things in the instance(s), or I might just be blind here.

I saw her asking him not to reduce his effectiveness by getting killed, which hardly seemed lacking in affection. So what dialogue is being interpreted as “friend-zoning” him? Answers welcome!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regrouping_with_the_Queen#Dialogue

During this step. Specifically:

Queen Jennah: Something else, Commander?
PC: After the incident with Estelle, I meant to ask you about Logan…
Queen Jennah: Captain Thackeray has provided unwavering, invaluable service to the crown. I expect he will continue to do so, especially given the current situation with Caudecus.
PC: Apologies if I’ve given offense, Your Majesty.
Queen Jennah: That’s not necessary. I hear the whispers, and I see with my own eyes. Logan is…a loyal servant, and a friend. I think he’s coming to terms with that. At last.
PC: So it would seem.

The bold directly contradicts her earlier claims in the PS, such as:

Queen Jennah: I never doubted you for an instant, Advocate. Kryta has no finer heroes than you and Captain Thackeray.
PC: Speaking of Captain Thackeray… it doesn’t bother you that he’s going to Lion’s Arch?
Queen Jennah: I’m worried, I’ll admit. Caithe has never been trustworthy in the best of times, and lately… please, tell me you’ll watch over him?
PC: You know that you could stop him, right? One word from you, and he’d stay.
Queen Jennah: No, Advocate. I have enough servants — I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions. I made such a mistake once before. I won’t make it again.

From both The Queen’s Justice and Kellach’s Attack

First, she says she doesn’t want Logan to be a servant but a partner. Then she says Logan is a loyal servant and friend.

Not only is that friendzoning to the nth degree, but it’s a direct 180 for Jennah’s view of Logan. I could probably also quote the book to further how Jennah feels about Logan too, tbh.

There are other dialogues hinting at the same retcon that Jennah never cared:

Logan Thackeray: General Soulkeeper came to see me the other day and offered me the position of Pact Marshal.
Logan Thackeray: I didn’t…at first I didn’t think it was for me, but my injuries and today…
Logan Thackeray: Well, my eyes were opened to…ny role here.
Logan Thackeray: Her Majesty has always been the kind of person to do things her own way. It’s time I started doing the same.
<Character Name>: It’s a great honor, and you deserve it. Have you told her yet? I imagine she’ll be disappointed.
Logan Thackeray: I think she’ll be…just fine. Have a safe mission. See you on the other side.

Lady-in-Waiting: So nice of you to say hello.
PC: How is Captain Thackeray?
Lady-in-Waiting: As strong willed and hardheaded as ever, although he seems to have outgrown his puppy-dog affection for the queen. That look din’t suit him anyway.
PC: I’m sure I don’t know what you mean.
Lady-in-Waiting: Come now, darling. Everyone knew it. And besides, Logan is so last year. Even the cutest kitten can grow into old tomcats, if you know what I mean.
PC: I’m sure I wish I didn’t.
Lady-in-Waiting: Lord Faren, though. Now there’s a proper gentleman. Courteous. Magnanimous. Dauntless. Flawless. Tall…
PC: Oh, sorry—duty calls. Immediately.

Both from the same instance. Estelle’s poorly worded insult at the end of A Meeting of Ministers is another indication that everyone but Logan knew Jennah had no feelings for her.

Even though the development of Logan would actively put him in the position that Jennah wanted him to go into during the PS, it seems that they’ve decided the feelings were one-sided.

There’s also that interesting bit at the very end of Caudecus’s Manor story

Queen Jennah: Caudecus is guilty of many things, Captain, but he was not responsible here. The Separatists were planning to capture him as well.

Caudecus: Capture…me? Then I am in your debt for keeping me safe, your Majesty.

Queen Jennah: Also, for your own protection, you should stay at my palace. Temporarily of course. I insist.

Caudecus: There’s no…I mean…I’m sure…Certainly, your Majesty. I would be honored.

Logan Thackeray: Your Majesty! Jennah! Are you serious?

Queen Jennah: Very serious, Captain. I think it best the minister stays where I can keep an eye on him. For his own safety.

Logan Thackeray: Then I should remain as well. To help keep an eye on him.

Queen Jennah: No, no need for that. I appreciate your rescue, but you have your own journey. One that leads beyond Divinity’s Reach.

Logan Thackeray: There are dangers that threaten you here.

Queen Jennah: There are dangers that face all of us, Logan. All of our world. There are things only you can do.

Logan Thackeray: You’re right. So much has been left unfinished. Much to make amends for. I should go.

Queen Jennah: And I will be waiting your return.

Reminder that Faren will be the king of kryta once him and Jennah get married

Thanks, Konig. I must have missed it on my playthroughs because rather than seeing a direct conversation or interaction in which she rebuffs Logan’s romantic side it rests in implication of past thoughts via present attitudes.

And lol, Uvirith!

draxynnic.3719:

My general thought on this is:

Logan was never going to be viewed by the Krytan establishment of being worthy of being Prince Consort while acting like a glorified bodyguard.

If she ever wants it to be possible for them to be a couple, she needs to push him away so he can make a name for himself as someone who can be a near-equal rather than a lovesick puppy. There’s no guarantee even then, but there’s no chance if he doesn’t prove himself a leader in a context where he isn’t Jennah’s subordinate. A Pact Marshal who manages to get another dragon or two down under his command may well get there.

Logan is a founding member of Destiny’s Edge and took down numerous dragon champions and even performed a vital role in defeating the first every Elder Dragon to fall. It’s ludicrous to suggest he needs to prove himself some way beyond his already incredible accomplishments. It’s difficult to overstate how accomplished he already is. Even his family name is prestigious – he descends from some of the greatest heroes in human history. He hasn’t really acted like a bodyguard since Scarlet attacked and even there he only briefly attempted to protect the Queen before returning his complete focus to his duties to the Seraph.

We just saw Jennah hold all her ministers against their will and a major rebellion within the Krytan government. The Ministry has long been resisting the Queen’s power and there was a lot of support among the common Krytans against the Queen. If Logan’s class is in any way an issue for the Krytan people they simply aren’t being written as rational thinkers.

I suspect the nobility/commoner plot was a weak attempt at a star crossed lovers storyline for the two of them that fell flat in the novel Edge of Destiny where a good portion of the audience finished the book thinking she had mind controlled him. It seems clear to me that Jennah either had feelings for Logan or she was manipulating/using him and leading him on, which is pretty terrible for a heroic protagonist.

Keep in mind Logan abandoned his friends and team to come to her aid resulting in Glint and Snaff’s deaths and Kralkatorrik roams free, yet we see constantly that both Anise and even Jennah herself are quite capable of defending themselves. It’s pretty messed up if she had just been manipulating him this whole time when it is clear he wasn’t needed to protect her (nor was his position to protect her either).

To me this was the plot finally accepting this romance didn’t work. It was cliche and it turned an interesting character into a frustrating one whenever the relationship was involved. Logan is great as the Seraph captain, he is great when he’s fighting alongside Rytlock and he was great before he even came to Kryta, but the whole romance plot was holding him back.

He has a tonne of experience commanding troops and fighting Elder Dragons and their champions, so more than most he is very qualified for the position of Pact Marshall. The Seraph isn’t likely to be as important going forward now that the primary human conflict has been resolved.

I don’t doubt the romance might come back, part of the cliche is to create drama by separating the two lovers before reuniting them later, but for now this is the most interesting development we’ve seen for login since the game came out.

Shiren.9532:

Logan is a founding member of Destiny’s Edge and took down numerous dragon champions and even performed a vital role in defeating the first every Elder Dragon to fall. It’s ludicrous to suggest he needs to prove himself some way beyond his already incredible accomplishments. It’s difficult to overstate how accomplished he already is. Even his family name is prestigious – he descends from some of the greatest heroes in human history. He hasn’t really acted like a bodyguard since Scarlet attacked and even there he only briefly attempted to protect the Queen before returning his complete focus to his duties to the Seraph.

So, he’s a good fighter. Doesn’t mean that jumped-up commoner is king material.

Seriously, Logan’s never commanded anything more significant than a Seraph company, and Kryta has plenty of Seraph captains. He was the weak link in Destiny’s Edge (whatever his reasons), and “everybody knows” he’s just a lovesick puppy. My guardian PC probably has a better shot at being accepted as prince consort material – he’s at least a noble, after all!

Socially speaking, the gap between commoner and royalty is a big one to marry up into. At the very least, he’d need to show that he’s got more to offer than bashing things and telling others to bash things. He’s missing a lot of the non-battlefield-related skills that would be expected of someone who might have to step in to rule a nation (he couldn’t even fix a rift between him and his former best friends for five years!) – but as the Pact Marshal? He may just have the chance to develop those skills, and to force the Krytan to recognise that he is as close to being an equal to the Queen as any other human can be.

draxynnic.3719:

Seriously, Logan’s never commanded anything more significant than a Seraph company, and Kryta has plenty of Seraph captains.

Until this update, there were only “a handful” of captains at a time, technically. Each one ruling over a large region – Thackeray only had authority in Divinity’s Reach, while Trevelan had such over Queensdale for example.

Apparently they gave “second level of leadership” a huge promotion role in the past 4 years though.

draxynnic.3719:

He was the weak link in Destiny’s Edge (whatever his reasons),

While I’m sure you’re playing devil’s advocate I’d heavily disagree with this. Especially from a human noble viewpoint. Most humans would likely consider Rytlock and Zojja to be the weak links – and personally I’d put Zojja as such. She was, after all, the last to rejoin.

And the fact that Logan’s departure is what broke DE would actually mark him as a crucial link in the guild – though the even more crucial link that bound everyone together was Snaff, it was Logan who first bent his old ways to befriend a mortal enemy (Rytlock) and while not in command of large units he had shown cunning in the battlefield (see very intro of the character in the novel).

While he does have downsides, I think these are only enough for enemies to run smeer campaigns rather than the populace to outcry against him. Which is what was implied (to me at least) for the main reason why Jennah and Logan didn’t get hitched while he was considered the “first among equals” of Seraph Captains.

When I said ‘plenty of Seraph captains’, I meant the 12, not however many are currently scattered around because they forgot that aspect. :o

Regarding the ‘weak link’ part: That was somewhat devil’s advocate-y, but mostly it’s talking about how he may be seen by NPCs. At the basic level, DE broke apart because Logan left: he was the link that broke, and the entire chain failed as a result. (He was also, incidentally, the reason Edge of Steel ended up in the arena…)

Now, the fact that he left to protect the queen probably gives him more credit from the perspective of humans than other races. However, he certainly wasn’t the leader: Eir was. Whichever way you look at it, his participation in DE reflected more on his ability to hit things, not on his ability to lead.

From non-humans NPCs view, I’d agree that he’d be seen as the weak link, but humans wouldn’t. This is actually shown a few places in-game, the most iconic being the charr, human, and asura kids playing in Setting the Stage instance that once upon a time were always right in the PC’s path (but not since they made it so we could use the old map). Of said kids, the human defended Logan while the other two blamed Logan.

As for Edge of Steel being in the arena… one can also place blame on Caithe for forcing a stop to the bear fight, or Rytlock for waving a flaming sword around in a highly combustible setting in front of an individual whom he knew was angry about him owning the sword.

As for leadership: His role in saving Jennah in of itself proves leadership qualities (capable of rallying a broken morale) as does his now 9 years as Captain of the Seraph (then 5).

Thanks for posts on this. In particular, it was useful to see the contradictions between the earlier personal story comments from Jenna (clearly indicating a relationship), and the current (which indicates that the romantic relationship never existed from her side).

Thoughts:
1) There goes the primary straight romantic relationship in the game.

Yes, I know this can be argued. but before arguing: restrict focus to relationships that the player is exposed to directly or hears about regularly over a long period of time. I’d say the romantic relationships that we’ve been exposed to the most have been: Logan and Jenna, Caithe and Faolaine, Marjorie and Kasmeer.

Though at the secondary level (briefer exposure), we’ve seen quite a few straight relationships, particulary in Orr storyline characters: Benn and Jaine (briefly mentioned at end), Benn’s parents, two separate asura couples, Snarl and Galina. And theres the bubbles couple who show up throughout the first season living story.

2) This really makes Logan look like a chump. And an oblivious fool. And it disqualifies him from any substantial leadership role. A huge part of leading is recognizing and managing feelings — a person who can’t do this for themselves in their most personal relationship certainly isn’t qualified to manage large numbers of people.

3) Writing for this game sometimes seems very erratic, as if control shifts between a couple of different people with substantially different plans. First, Jenna and Logan written as a couple, now they’re written as if they never were a couple. Looks like a 180 after someone else took over the wheel.

4) As noted by others above. If Jenna is so kick kitten by herself, and has Anise backing her up, then it makes Logan’s departure from DE’s final fight unnecessary, and thus Snaff and Glint’s deaths tragic also unnecessary.

5) If Jenna hasn’t been (discretely) involved with Logan this whole time, then what has she been doing romantically during the time that Logan has been hanging around in attendance on her? (And that’s what? 5 years?)
a) seeing no-one. Being a chaste, sexless virgin at the most vibrant time of her life, while being in a position where producing potential heirs is almost mandatory.
b) seeing other suitors openly. Which would make Logan even more of a chump
c) having suitors/lovers secretly. Which makes Logan blind.

On 4… Jennah and Anise did do something pretty kick kitten, however, she was probably too busy setting up the illusory Kralkatorrik in order to get down and dirty herself. Jennah probably could have fought if Logan hadn’t arrived and the ogres had broken in (which they were pretty close to doing when Logan did arrive), but she probably wouldn’t have been able to pull off the Kralkatorrik illusion if forced to defend herself directly, which means she likely would have eventually been overwhelmed.

On 5… Historically, even with the pressure to beget heirs, historically reigning queens have often been very careful about choosing suitors. Partially because choosing the wrong one could be giving the wrong person a lot of power, and partially because the queen’s unmarried status can be a political tool in and of itself, through people remaining at least outwardly loyal to her in hope that they might get her hand in marriage. See, for example, Elizabeth I.

Now, Jennah’s situation is a little different there, since she doesn’t have a clear heir, but a) isn’t too farfetched.

Careful about choosing suitors, and political implications/utility: Yep. And indeed, QE 1 had a long list of suitors, which she used to political advantage.

But Jennah? We don’t know. Up to this point, the implication was that Logan was (perhaps unofficially) her intended, and so no other suitors were being accepted. But now… its apparent that Logan was never even unofficially a candidate. Which leaves the three options above – none of which look good.

There are other alternatives. For instance:

d) Jennah is still interested in Logan, but felt she had to push him away for the conditions in which he might be considered a suitable partner to have a chance of occurring.

e) Jennah is still interested in Logan, but has realised that’s never going to be able to happen, and therefore that pushing him away so that both of them can move on and perhaps find other partners elsewhere is better in the long run for both of them.

f) Jennah was interested in Logan, but that has changed over time.

DarcShriek.5829:

Warlord.9074:

Except Queen Jenna isn’t real, its Anise, who also is Livia.

She’s also Lazarus!

all part of a Skritt conqueror’s plot!
there are no millions of Skritts. There is just one god called Skritt, and he’s a mesmer, and he made up the entire Skritt race, as well as all the human gods and the Eternal Alchemy to fool two races into servitude

Jennah told Logan she can’t be with him because she needs to marry Rytlock to secure peace between humans and charr. Jenna asked Eir to not give Logan Magdaer because she wanted to give it to Rytlock as a wedding gift and he is a revenant and needed matching firey dragon swords to dual wield.