Guild Wars 2

Wynne: “We come from the dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”
The…reluctance of certain forum users to entertain the possibility that the sylvari are dragon minions has meant that the implications of this have not really been explored. But with yesterday’s revelation, now seems to be the time to take another look. This thread isn’t meant to be a debate about whether making the sylvari dragon minions was the right storytelling choice, or whether or not there was any substantive evidence for this twist beforehand—-the other thread has already devolved into that.

This thread is for taking another look at existing sylvari lore within the framework of them being minions of Mordremoth, trying to make sense of it and exploring its implications for the future. Whether or not there was any evidence for this beforehand is only relevant insomuch that any “evidence” might be pertinent to the wider lore. It is no longer necessary to debate whether something constitutes evidence for this. Wynne’s testimony is all the evidence we need.

I suppose, from the top: where do the sylvari come from? We all know the origin story of the sylvari—the human Ronan, separated from his patrol, stumbles across a cavern filled with strange seed pods, guarded by terrible plant monsters, steals a seed and plants it in Arbor Bay, upon the graves of his family (who had been killed by the mursaat).

In light of recent events, this tale raises some questions:

• Is the sealed cavern with Caithe’s memory seed the very same cave? Arbor bay to beneath the Mamnoon Lagoon/Sage Lands is quite a distance. And if so, why does opening it ward off the Mordrem, when the seeds were guarded by Mordrem? Or was that the Forgotten magic, since the Shadow of the Dragon has no problem once inside.
• What happened to the other seeds? This is at least partially answered by the presence of Malyck, answered below.
• What are the golden ruins in the sealed cavern? The cavern was sealed by Forgotten magic, so it would suggest that they are the originators of these structures, but we’ve never seen Forgotten architecture before so we cannot confirm this.

Amaranda the Lonesome: “A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave…you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream.”

So we come to the $1,000,000 question: If the sylvari are Mordrem, why don’t they all behave like Mordrem? We’ve only seen two sylvari so far acting as agents of Mordremoth—Ceara and Aerin. Even if they are just waiting for Moredremoth to awaken, why do they feel compelled to fight the dragons? The Pale Tree has suggested that this protection is afforded by her, and those who reject her protection (the Soundless) are susceptible to Mordremoth’s call. But how does the Pale Tree provide protection? Via the Dream? Because it seems to be that the Nightmare is a manifestation of Mordremoth’s power, but if that is the case then Dreamers should be more susceptible, not less. And where does the Pale Tree get this protective ability from?

I can’t answer all of these questions, but I can offer some theories. It is my belief that the sylvari’s freedom from dragon control owes to Forgotten magic, to the same ritual that originally freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s control. If the Forgotten were somehow able to put up a psychic barrier between Mordremoth and the sylvari while the Mother Trees were still seeds, then this proffers an explanation for why we have free-willed dragon minions, as well as for why Malyck was also uncorrupted. But if the Forgotten had freed the seeds from Mordremoth’s influence, why were they guarded by Mordrem and not simply destroyed?

To what extent is the Ventari Tablet involved in this? We don’t actually know the mechanism by which Ventari influenced the Pale Tree. Cadeyrn attributed it to the actual Ventari Tablet itself, and thought that destroying it would free the sylvari of its influence. But it could equally have been from the fact that the tree absorbed Ventari’s remains after his death, or he could have magically “imprinted” on the tree through nurturing it for so long (in the same way that the player nurtures Mawdrey, in fact). What is clear is that the sylvari are not influenced directly by Ventari’s teachings, rather, they are influenced by the Pale Tree, who is in turn influenced by Ventari.

Were it not for Ventari, what would be the philosophy of the Mother Tree? There seems to be an assumption among some that the sylvari would be simply behave like any other Mordrem, but I’m not so sure. If we want to know how they would behave without Ventari, I think Malyck is a good first place to look.

At this point, reading this, it is starting to become clear how Scarlet fell under Mordremoth’s influence. But what about Aerin? He seemed to be eager to share his voyage with the Zephyrites with the Dream, and yet, at Dry Top we find Soundless mantras among the wreckage of the ships that he sabotaged. This is similar to what we see of the sylvari crew of the Pact fleet in the end cinematic for this release: sudden betrayal in the skies.

What do we know about these sylvari, and what parallels can we draw with Aerin? Is their betrayal spur-of-the-moment, or have they been corrupted for some time? We know that in all of these cases, it is post-dragonrise, and they are in the skies above dragon territory. Nothing else that I can think of. Is it because they are far away from the Pale Tree (sylvari have been much further in the other direction and been fine, though)? Or is it because the Pale Tree is weakened (although she wasn’t when Aerin fell)? Trahearne is among the sylvari in the Pact fleet, is he corrupted as well, or is this handwaved as him being shielded by Caladbolg? Why is the sylvari player character not corrupted—is Mordremoth’s reach limited for now, or is the dragon just waiting for the right moment, as it did with Aerin and the Pact sylvari?

Tamias.7059:

if the Forgotten had freed the seeds from Mordremoth’s influence, why were they guarded by Mordrem and not simply destroyed?

We have only heard reports or stories of Ronan, and nothing first hand. He could have misinterpreted the Modrem intentions in this situation. They may not have been guarding the seeds to keep someone from harming them, but guarding them to prevent them from getting out, knowing that they could grow into trees that produce Sylvari that fight the elder dragons. Some other players have reported some magical barrier preventing Modrem from getting into the cave, so at best; all Modremoth could do is guard the seeds as a jail keeper, not a protector.

I have been away from the game for sometime, but now that the season is over I will probably play through it, so forgive me if this situation has changed.

The problem with the forgotten ritual theory is Mawdrey. It seems like Mordrem can actually be trained, in a formative stage, to not be jerks, unless Mawdrey is a joke and not canon.

Maybe the forgotten ritual isn’t needed for them. Unlike any of the other known dragon minions, Mordrem are living things, not magically animated constructs of dead flesh, crystal, corrupted ice, or semi-molten stone. They may naturally have some independent will of their own on that account.

On the other hand, clearly the dragon can corrupt Sylvari who were raised in the Dream. So, presumably, a lot of people are going to be strangled by their backpieces when they head deeper into Maguuma.

perilisk.1874:

The problem with the forgotten ritual theory is Mawdrey. It seems like Mordrem can actually be trained, in a formative stage, to not be jerks, unless Mawdrey is a joke and not canon.

Maybe the forgotten ritual isn’t needed for them. Unlike any of the other known dragon minions, Mordrem are living things, not magically animated constructs of dead flesh, crystal, corrupted ice, or semi-molten stone. They may naturally have some independent will of their own on that account.

On the other hand, clearly the dragon can corrupt Sylvari who were raised in the Dream. So, presumably, a lot of people are going to be strangled by their backpieces when they head deeper into Maguuma.

LOL not like a lot of people use it, it does not go with a lot of other armor and looks lopsided.

Can not remember when last I saw someone use the skin.

Novuake.2691:

perilisk.1874:

The problem with the forgotten ritual theory is Mawdrey. It seems like Mordrem can actually be trained, in a formative stage, to not be jerks, unless Mawdrey is a joke and not canon.

Maybe the forgotten ritual isn’t needed for them. Unlike any of the other known dragon minions, Mordrem are living things, not magically animated constructs of dead flesh, crystal, corrupted ice, or semi-molten stone. They may naturally have some independent will of their own on that account.

On the other hand, clearly the dragon can corrupt Sylvari who were raised in the Dream. So, presumably, a lot of people are going to be strangled by their backpieces when they head deeper into Maguuma.

LOL not like a lot of people use it, it does not go with a lot of other armor and looks lopsided.

Can not remember when last I saw someone use the skin.

I use it on my mesmer female sylvari. Works very well with one of the make-over kit hair styles and the right color scheme. Admittedly though, my other 8 toons can’t make it work so she is the only one wearing it.

I hope the ramifications have some effect on PC’s. Even if its a superficial one, like a corrupted glow in maguuma or something. I’m not big into Sylvari as a race, but there’s certainly an interesting story for them to tell here – as long as the writers actually get it going and not keep stalling with unanswered cliffhangers.

Whatever PAX announces, I hoe we get some changes in the world reflecting all this even if its not directly content. Attitude changes with NPCs, The Grove in heightened state of panic perhaps.

Fear not this night….

Fear the next!

Tamias.7059:

In light of recent events, this tale raises some questions:

• Is the sealed cavern with Caithe’s memory seed the very same cave? Arbor bay to beneath the Mamnoon Lagoon/Sage Lands is quite a distance. And if so, why does opening it ward off the Mordrem, when the seeds were guarded by Mordrem? Or was that the Forgotten magic, since the Shadow of the Dragon has no problem once inside.
• What happened to the other seeds? This is at least partially answered by the presence of Malyck, answered below.
• What are the golden ruins in the sealed cavern? The cavern was sealed by Forgotten magic, so it would suggest that they are the originators of these structures, but we’ve never seen Forgotten architecture before so we cannot confirm this.

My fun theory means that it is the same cave or at least similar

well imagine you had these seeds from an elder dragon, they will grow into thousands of minions unless you do something with them fast however u cant just leave them because if they touch ground(?or water? not sure how it work with sylvari seeds)
it would start to grow now in order to protect everyone (the forgotten)
may have turne the entire area to gold so that nothing can grow there i mean what better play to hide from the growth and life dragon that to be somewhere devoid of life and growth (they may have also cleansed the seeds which could explain sylvaris peaceful behavior up till now) infact the gold of the cave may have been what separated the influence of the dragon from the seeds.

With the revelation that Sylvari are, in fact, dragon minions, I now believe the following:

1. The Dream is actually the “hive mind” of Mordremoth, the same way that other dragon minions share a hive mind with their Elder Dragon. The Pale Tree is protecting the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption by essentially “filtering” it, somehow, allowing the Sylvari access to knowledge from the Dream, but without granting Mordremoth the ability to control the Sylvari through it.

2. Sylvari can still be physically corrupted by Mordremoth by coming into too close in proximity to Mordremoth or his corrupted minions. Sylvari who cut themselves off from the Dream (i.e. become Soundless) are especially at risk, but even good Sylvari who are within the Dream can become corrupted if they are not especially strong-willed. (Another possibility is that the Sylvari aboard the Pact vessels got corrupted simply because the Pale Tree was so badly injured her ability to filter the Dream was gravely weakened. Had the attack on the Grove not happened, only Soundless are at risk of corruption and the Sylvari aboard the ships would never have turned at all.)

3. Unlike other types of Elder Dragons, who corrupt their minions from existing creatures, many of Mordremoth’s minions are living creatures in their own right. (The Thrashers and the Sylvari, in particular. The Husks, Teragriffs and Trolls appear to be corrupted versions of existing creatures.) As living creatures, they do have the ability to choose their own path in life, unless they individually become corrupted/controlled by Mordremoth.

Tamias.7059:

Wynne: “We come from the dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”
…

I went and googled the cut scene for that dialogue. I had hoped to confirmed it. However, with some disappointment what I found was :-

‘…We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it…’

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

• My gut feeling would be that at some point the guardians might have distributed them, depending on the nature of the guardians. Given the above, though, it’s possible that they’re still there.

• There are actually Forgotten ruins that can be visited in GW1 – the Lair of the Forgotten is the most convenient to reach as it is an outpost. Arches similar to the arch here are found in the Lair of the Forgotten, but similar arches are also found in ruins that are believed to be Elonian (and otherwise have Elonian architecture) so that may simply be re-use of resources. It could also be the Elonians copying Forgotten architecture.

• Some sort of ritual to break the link seems likely – contrary to the belief of some, simple force of will and inspiring philosophy is not sufficient. (Although it may still be a valuable component – Glint didn’t turn immediately after the ritual, the ritual simply gave her the free will to choose to turn of her own accord.) This may not be identical to the Forgotten ritual in the Arah path – the Mawdrey scavenger hunt suggests that there are indeed other ways to do it, and with the number of magical reagents that get fed to that plant, it’s likely that something in there served to break the link. (Perhaps we should start feeding all those various plant foods to sylvari as well…)

• An interesting question here is the relative strength of what was done to the Pale Tree seeds and the Forgotten ritual. The sylvari seem to have a lesser degree of protection than the Pale Tree, indicating that the protection fades between generations. If the same is true of the Forgotten ritual, this could have unfortunate implications for Glint’s offspring.

• I don’t think the Dream is simply a manifestation of the dragon hive mind – we see it touching things that aren’t associated with Mordremoth (including animals, such as the White Stag). The Nightmare may be an encroachment of the Mordrem hive-mind on the Dream.

• My feeling is that Dream sylvari have become corruptible due to the Pale Tree’s wounding. The “kill the leader and the rest will fall in line” quote from early in S2 seems to have been the Shadows aim in E4 – while failing to kill the Tree (for now) it has weakened her enough to weaken her protection.

• Some of the Mordrem appear to be plants controlling an animal corpse (the Mordrem Wolves, for instance). Others, however, simply seem to be plants in animal form. We know that the Pale Tree can create sylvari in forms other than human should she so choose (the fern hounds being based on dogs, for instance) – so it is likely that if similar trees are the source of other mordrem, that they can use trolls, colocals, and other animals as ‘blueprints’ to create a creature that resembles that animal, but isn’t actually a corrupted version of that animal. Similar to how many Destroyers resemble living creatures.

It should also be noted that while it was only a short time for us, that Mawdrey was 2-3 generation removed from Mordremoth, and it was the end result of careful cultivation by the players over said generations.

So it might not even have been a ritual, like in Glint’s case, that broke the connection between the Pale Tree and Mordremoth. It possible that it could have been some kinda of Forgotten (or Mursaat or some other elder race) botanist that was experimenting on them a long while ago, and they discovered that the application of certain magical essences over time and generations could possibly break the connection between Mordremoth’s living minions and their master.

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

i dont believe that the forgotten were around anymore when the seeds were taken.
also i believe that the gold of that cave is very important, i think perhaps a spell was cast to convert the entire area to gold to prevent anything growing in that area (mordrem vines and such) and i think when they did the spell they had made sure the seeds where put in the middle to also be turned to gold but it may have not worked on the seeds properly(may have just coated them in gold perhaps even preserved the seeds)and then ronnan breaks into this place and finds a wondrous cave made of gold then he sees these huge hunks of gold that are perfect size to carry out of the cave (everything else looks kind of attatched physically(plants planted in gold and turned to gold would be hard to uproot)) Ronan then takes the seeds away but when he sits down to inspect the gold he “borrowed” from the cave he realises that its not actualy gold and then the story continues how we know it. basically in the end ronnan was only looking for riches when he found the seeds

tldr:cave and seeds were attempted to be turned to gold by forgotten or mursaat to stop jungle dragon. Ronan mistakenly steals seeds because he thinks they are made of gold

The forgotten are a bit like the mursaat – they have a tendency to reappear when everyone thinks they’re gone. The forgotten certainly did remain in the Crystal Desert until at least 1075, and appear to remain extant in the domains of the gods. While they no longer lived in the Maguuma as a group, it’s possible that they could have been made aware of the breach of the cave and took steps to upgrade it’s security.

That said, if I had to bet I’d bet on the door having been there all along, and on Ronan either having gone to a different cave or having to have come in through a different entrance.

yea i mean the entire area has changed over the last 250 years whos to say that there isnt a long care leading into this cavern i mean that would still make sense lore wise

Is it possible that those who are prone to Mordremoth’s influence and go mad are those who choose to be Soundless? Not every sylvari so far has been willing to follow the tenets of Ventari and they either end up being Soundless or they join the Nightmare Court.

Malkavian.4516:

Is it possible that those who are prone to Mordremoth’s influence and go mad are those who choose to be Soundless? Not every sylvari so far has been willing to follow the tenets of Ventari and they either end up being Soundless or they join the Nightmare Court.

That’s definitely what we were being led to in S2. I don’t think that’s quite the whole story, though. The shared allies with the Nightmare Court, the new thorny projections off Faolain’s back as she fights alongside a mordrem troll, the seemingly vast number of sylvari that turned on the Pact fleet… I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the first two sylvari by a long shot we see serving Mordremoth are Soundless, but the trailer makes me doubt that all of them going forward will be.

From what Trahearne said, Mordremoth wasn’t fully awake yet. It could have been that the Soundless were the first to fall simply because they were the easier targets. Once Mordy was fully awake though, either by the cannon fire or the Pact just had awful timing, he could exert the full force of his mental powers on the other Sylvari.

On a sidenote, I’m still wondering who was the Firstborn to come up with the meditation techniques to become Soundless.

Zaxares.5419:

3. Unlike other types of Elder Dragons

Do you count Glint/Glaust as a minion then?

saventis.1485:

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

i dont believe that the forgotten were around anymore when the seeds were taken.
also i believe that the gold of that cave is very important, i think perhaps a spell was cast to convert the entire area to gold to prevent anything growing in that area (mordrem vines and such) and i think when they did the spell they had made sure the seeds where put in the middle to also be turned to gold but it may have not worked on the seeds properly(may have just coated them in gold perhaps even preserved the seeds)and then ronnan breaks into this place and finds a wondrous cave made of gold then he sees these huge hunks of gold that are perfect size to carry out of the cave (everything else looks kind of attatched physically(plants planted in gold and turned to gold would be hard to uproot)) Ronan then takes the seeds away but when he sits down to inspect the gold he “borrowed” from the cave he realises that its not actualy gold and then the story continues how we know it. basically in the end ronnan was only looking for riches when he found the seeds

tldr:cave and seeds were attempted to be turned to gold by forgotten or mursaat to stop jungle dragon. Ronan mistakenly steals seeds because he thinks they are made of gold

There’s no evidence that this is the right cave, I’m not saying it isn’t the same cave, just that there’s really no evidence to support that this is anything more than the location that Wynne told Caithe her secret.

Now about this cave, why did the seal prevent us from entering, but not Caithe and Wynne? We get through this forgotten seal only to find that someone has been camping out! Why weren’t Caithe, Faolain, and Wynne locked out? Was the seal put on since Caithe killed Wynne, or was it always there?

saventis.1485:

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

i dont believe that the forgotten were around anymore when the seeds were taken.
also i believe that the gold of that cave is very important, i think perhaps a spell was cast to convert the entire area to gold to prevent anything growing in that area (mordrem vines and such) and i think when they did the spell they had made sure the seeds where put in the middle to also be turned to gold but it may have not worked on the seeds properly(may have just coated them in gold perhaps even preserved the seeds)and then ronnan breaks into this place and finds a wondrous cave made of gold then he sees these huge hunks of gold that are perfect size to carry out of the cave (everything else looks kind of attatched physically(plants planted in gold and turned to gold would be hard to uproot)) Ronan then takes the seeds away but when he sits down to inspect the gold he “borrowed” from the cave he realises that its not actualy gold and then the story continues how we know it. basically in the end ronnan was only looking for riches when he found the seeds

tldr:cave and seeds were attempted to be turned to gold by forgotten or mursaat to stop jungle dragon. Ronan mistakenly steals seeds because he thinks they are made of gold

If he thought the seed was made of gold, why would he plant it? I can’t believe he thought the seeds were made of gold. Would you try to plant a gold seed?

DarcShriek.5829:

Now about this cave, why did the seal prevent us from entering, but not Caithe and Wynne? We get through this forgotten seal only to find that someone has been camping out! Why weren’t Caithe, Faolain, and Wynne locked out? Was the seal put on since Caithe killed Wynne, or was it always there?

It seems that Wynne somehow had a Forgotten Seal, which acts as a key (the whole divine fire thing is the backup mechanism) – we see her doing something with the door before it opens in the previous vision. Caithe presumably found the seal after the final confrontation, and it’s likely that the seal we receive as a completion reward afterwards is the same seal.

DarcShriek.5829:

saventis.1485:

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

i dont believe that the forgotten were around anymore when the seeds were taken.
also i believe that the gold of that cave is very important, i think perhaps a spell was cast to convert the entire area to gold to prevent anything growing in that area (mordrem vines and such) and i think when they did the spell they had made sure the seeds where put in the middle to also be turned to gold but it may have not worked on the seeds properly(may have just coated them in gold perhaps even preserved the seeds)and then ronnan breaks into this place and finds a wondrous cave made of gold then he sees these huge hunks of gold that are perfect size to carry out of the cave (everything else looks kind of attatched physically(plants planted in gold and turned to gold would be hard to uproot)) Ronan then takes the seeds away but when he sits down to inspect the gold he “borrowed” from the cave he realises that its not actualy gold and then the story continues how we know it. basically in the end ronnan was only looking for riches when he found the seeds

tldr:cave and seeds were attempted to be turned to gold by forgotten or mursaat to stop jungle dragon. Ronan mistakenly steals seeds because he thinks they are made of gold

There’s no evidence that this is the right cave, I’m not saying it isn’t the same cave, just that there’s really no evidence to support that this is anything more than the location that Wynne told Caithe her secret.

Now about this cave, why did the seal prevent us from entering, but not Caithe and Wynne? We get through this forgotten seal only to find that someone has been camping out! Why weren’t Caithe, Faolain, and Wynne locked out? Was the seal put on since Caithe killed Wynne, or was it always there?

it may or may not but think about the significance of it i mean if wynne had seen the origins of the sylvari in the dream perhaps she saw the cave and hence were she went to to try and figure things out

and as for the crest
who says they need one?
what if the seeds were cleansed(or enchanted or something) by the forgotten before being placed in the cave
could this potential give a sort of protection… and then this idea sorta continues into why our sylvari arnt automatically bad perhaps its some sort of ritual like what happened to glint perhaps different

however the protection/cleansing gets weaker as the generations go on (why we as sylvari cant enter the cave right away)

it dosnt really make sense that caith and folain were able to enter as well but this would explain how

DarcShriek.5829:

saventis.1485:

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, working through the various discussion elements raised:

• I don’t think it’s actually likely that this cave is the one Ronan entered, given that Ronan’s story didn’t mention having to interact with forgotten magics to enter. It’s possible, however, that the door was placed as a security measure after the Forgotten discovered that someone had stolen a seed from there. It’s also possible that Ronan came in through another entrance (the golden archway).

i dont believe that the forgotten were around anymore when the seeds were taken.
also i believe that the gold of that cave is very important, i think perhaps a spell was cast to convert the entire area to gold to prevent anything growing in that area (mordrem vines and such) and i think when they did the spell they had made sure the seeds where put in the middle to also be turned to gold but it may have not worked on the seeds properly(may have just coated them in gold perhaps even preserved the seeds)and then ronnan breaks into this place and finds a wondrous cave made of gold then he sees these huge hunks of gold that are perfect size to carry out of the cave (everything else looks kind of attatched physically(plants planted in gold and turned to gold would be hard to uproot)) Ronan then takes the seeds away but when he sits down to inspect the gold he “borrowed” from the cave he realises that its not actualy gold and then the story continues how we know it. basically in the end ronnan was only looking for riches when he found the seeds

tldr:cave and seeds were attempted to be turned to gold by forgotten or mursaat to stop jungle dragon. Ronan mistakenly steals seeds because he thinks they are made of gold

If he thought the seed was made of gold, why would he plant it? I can’t believe he thought the seeds were made of gold. Would you try to plant a gold seed?

i dunno i imagin him sitting by the river examining it and then he realises it isnt actualy gold and then the story continues from there

but he could equally as likely taken to market and be denied were upon he recognises its just a gold covered seed

Zaxares.5419:

With the revelation that Sylvari are, in fact, dragon minions, I now believe the following:

1. The Dream is actually the “hive mind” of Mordremoth, the same way that other dragon minions share a hive mind with their Elder Dragon. The Pale Tree is protecting the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption by essentially “filtering” it, somehow, allowing the Sylvari access to knowledge from the Dream, but without granting Mordremoth the ability to control the Sylvari through it.

Going to disagree here. I am of the belief that the Nightmare is Mordremoth’s attempts to get inside The Dream and corrupt it where as The Dream is the Pale Tree’s product of resistance.

The vital key to the Sylvari in our (the player-sylvari) case is that The Pale Tree has worked hard to resist that which sought to harm it even though The Pale Tree had no real clue as to what was behind it. This poses the question however on what will happen to poor Mallyk the Fauna-Snowflake and whether or not we’ll see him. There needs to be some special stipulation to address the fact that player character sylvari cannot be corrupted.

Sylvari of The Pale Tree are a unique form of Dragon Minion simply because they have been tampered with prior to Mordremoth’s awakening. This is what stirred Scarlet into action, whether she was in control of her own actions and wanted to awaken Mordremoth just to kill it or knowingly aiding Mordremoth to awaken it in order to allow the Sylvari to fall into their natural order.

I believe the Dream acts as a radio station that is tuned to the same frequency as another radio station, only being closer and thus its transmission covers up the other and you can only hear the Dream transmitting.

Should the Dream stop broadcasting or the signal somehow cut, the other signal would then be heard.

Similarly if you move closer to the other signal, it would eventually become stronger than the Dream and override it.

Ronin.7381:

Sylvari of The Pale Tree are a unique form of Dragon Minion simply because they have been tampered with prior to Mordremoth’s awakening. This is what stirred Scarlet into action, whether she was in control of her own actions and wanted to awaken Mordremoth just to kill it or knowingly aiding Mordremoth to awaken it in order to allow the Sylvari to fall into their natural order.

I don’t think Scarlet was in control of her actions in the end. She might have believed she was doing something to kill Mordy but instead Mordy was pulling her strings to wake him up.

You don’t wake up someone to kill him. You kill him in his sleep.

Tamias.7059:

• Is the sealed cavern with Caithe’s memory seed the very same cave? Arbor bay to beneath the Mamnoon Lagoon/Sage Lands is quite a distance. And if so, why does opening it ward off the Mordrem, when the seeds were guarded by Mordrem? Or was that the Forgotten magic, since the Shadow of the Dragon has no problem once inside.
• What happened to the other seeds? This is at least partially answered by the presence of Malyck, answered below.
• What are the golden ruins in the sealed cavern? The cavern was sealed by Forgotten magic, so it would suggest that they are the originators of these structures, but we’ve never seen Forgotten architecture before so we cannot confirm this.

I don’t think it’s the same cave. Or else we might have seen some seeds or at least remnants. The cave was sealed by the Forgotten but the golden city is reminiscent of the description of Mursaat cities. So the question might rather be: why would the Forgotten seal away a Mursaat city? Of course its not like the Forgotten got along with the Mursaat or anything.

Tamias.7059:

So we come to the $1,000,000 question: If the sylvari are Mordrem, why don’t they all behave like Mordrem?

My theory? The Pale Tree was planted and awoke well before Mordy, so Mordy couldn’t directly influence her behavior (because he was asleep). This gave her an opportunity to be influenced by Ventari’s teaching (and maybe some other stuff) and now the Pale Tree is in turn protecting the Sylvari from Mordy’s corruption.

Tamias.7059:

Because it seems to be that the Nightmare is a manifestation of Mordremoth’s power, but if that is the case then Dreamers should be more susceptible, not less. And where does the Pale Tree get this protective ability from?

It’s still an assumption (but a very good one) that the Nightmare comes from Mordy. However the Nightmare might only indirectly come from Mordy. Maybe the Pale Tree was able to expel Mordy’s influence over her and it took the shape of the Nightmare. Remember the Dream and Nightmare reflect the experiences of the Sylvari. Those Sylvari that are tortured by the Nightmare Court not only fall to nightmare but their experienced add to the Nightmare. So it’s likely the Nightmare only reflects Mordy’s corruption but does not stem directly from Mordy.

draxynnic.3719:

• I don’t think the Dream is simply a manifestation of the dragon hive mind – we see it touching things that aren’t associated with Mordremoth (including animals, such as the White Stag). The Nightmare may be an encroachment of the Mordrem hive-mind on the Dream.

Yeah I’m with you on the dream not being directly tied to Mordy. Maybe the Dream was a pre-existing thing which the Pale Tree simply managed to link to and use to help her free herself form Mordy.

Erukk.1408:

From what Trahearne said, Mordremoth wasn’t fully awake yet. It could have been that the Soundless were the first to fall simply because they were the easier targets. Once Mordy was fully awake though, either by the cannon fire or the Pact just had awful timing, he could exert the full force of his mental powers on the other Sylvari.

I don’t think Mordy is fully awakened yet. When Elder Dragons fully wake up, it’s rather hard to miss. Although I must say, Mordy sure is taking a long time to get out of bed.

Novuake.2691:

Zaxares.5419:

3. Unlike other types of Elder Dragons

Do you count Glint/Glaust as a minion then?

Glaust was a minion (a lieutenant or champion specifically), Glint was a freed minion (even though they’re the same, sort of).

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t think Mordy is fully awakened yet. When Elder Dragons fully wake up, it’s rather hard to miss. Although I must say, Mordy sure is taking a long time to get out of bed.

Not so long, considering there was a 42 year gap between the first destroyer activity and Primordus properly awakening. Depending on what you want to use as an equivalent, it’s been six years since Scarlet first made mental contact with Mordremoth, about one since she redirected the ley line into it, and less than a year since the tendrils were first observed.

Omad’s machine, the Ley lines, and the Breechmaker all seem rather superfluous now.

CureForLiving.5360:

My theory? The Pale Tree was planted and awoke well before Mordy, so Mordy couldn’t directly influence her behavior (because he was asleep). This gave her an opportunity to be influenced by Ventari’s teaching (and maybe some other stuff) and now the Pale Tree is in turn protecting the Sylvari from Mordy’s corruption.

We’ve had a case of a dragon champion being created before the dragon was awake before, in Svanir. It’s not actually quite clear how much Svanir was actually doing the dragon’s bidding, but he certainly had a major change in personality and loyalties afterwards, and he definitely wasn’t acting against Jormag as the Pale Tree has appeared to be acting against Mordy.

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm whether we have fought any sylvari that were not born of the Pale Tree?

As to the mordrem angle, I propose that the sylvari born of the Pale Tree are evolving away from Mordremoth (i.e. they are no longer truly mordrem, they call themselves sylvari for instance). Whilst some may retain faculties which the dragon finds easier to break, I’m sure that the remainder are developing a sense of identity and may soon be as individualistic as any other member of any other race not known to be intended to be dragon minions.

Stephen.6312:

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm whether we have fought any sylvari that were not born of the Pale Tree?

So far, we have not. Scarlet was definitely of the Pale Tree, and I can’t imagine Aerin came all the way from Malyck’s tree. Without Mordremoth driving him he’d have no reason, and the survivor accounts indicate he underwent a comparatively rapid but nonetheless notable personality shift as the corruption took hold, ruling out his being pre-corrupted.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Stephen.6312:

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm whether we have fought any sylvari that were not born of the Pale Tree?

So far, we have not. Scarlet was definitely of the Pale Tree, and I can’t imagine Aerin came all the way from Malyck’s tree. Without Mordremoth driving him he’d have no reason, and the survivor accounts indicate he underwent a comparatively rapid but nonetheless notable personality shift as the corruption took hold, ruling out his being pre-corrupted.

Hi Aaron,
Thanks for clarifying that point.

Omadd’s machine is still very relevant. It gave us the first real hints that sylvari are dragon minions. Vorpp says whatever happened to Scarlet’s mind happened because of something she brought with her. Her connection to Mordremoth existed when she entered the machine. At the time the critics of sylvari as minions theory argued she encountered something else, but it now seems most likely that whatever prevented Scarlet and other sylvari from becoming servants of Mordremoth, that thing was stripped from her in the machine (this is more explicit in the short story What Scarlet Saw).

We still don’t know how Mordremoth’s influence over sylvari works. It’s suggested the Pale Tree protected Scarlet (and other sylvari) but Scarlet broke that protection to venture out on her own, that made her vulnerable. It’s also suggested that Soundless, sylvari that cut themselves off from the Dream, are vulnerable. This suggests that the Dream and the Pale Tree are the ones protecting the sylvari from Mordremoth’s control. The outlier is Malyck, he may have been an undercover servant of Mordemoth (unlikely – if he didn’t want us to be suspicious he wouldn’t let us know about his pod and instead try to blend in as another child of the Pale Tree), or possibly his pod woke in the vicinity of the Pale Tree and the protection offered by her applied to him, preventing him from awakening as a minion. Alternatively a sylvari from any Mother Tree might be a neutral creature until Mordremoth exercises its influence over them and maybe Mordremoth’s influence couldn’t reach Malyck at the time due it being asleep.

In the recent Points of Interest episode Colin reaffirmed that the sylvari as minions theory was canon before launch. He actually went on to elaborate that Ree Soesbee was working on it as far back as Eye of the North and she carefully went through the tutorial instance and early sylvari personal story to ensure they didn’t give away too much. Given that they were laying the background so early, I think it’s very worthwhile to revisit the “Grove” in GW1 and the early sylvari personal story (especially Malyck) and review everything with the knowledge of them as minions.

Caithe more than anyone else will be most important to pay attention to. She knew the entire time and everything she has done was while concealing this secret. I wonder if Edge of Destiny might hold more hints.

Omad’s machine (and Scarlet, and in fact all of LS1, and some if LS2) becomes unnecessary to the plot when you have Mordremoth taking control of Sylvari without it.

In fact, you could pretty much skip all the living story up to this point, and jump into this chapter and have Modremoth just take control of his minions and have it make no less sense.

Wanderer.3248:

Omad’s machine (and Scarlet, and in fact all of LS1, and some if LS2) becomes unnecessary to the plot when you have Mordremoth taking control of Sylvari without it.

In fact, you could pretty much skip all the living story up to this point, and jump into this chapter and have Modremoth just take control of his minions and have it make no less sense.

Not that it made much sense to begin with…but yeah, pretty much.

Wanderer.3248:

Omad’s machine (and Scarlet, and in fact all of LS1, and some if LS2) becomes unnecessary to the plot when you have Mordremoth taking control of Sylvari without it.

In fact, you could pretty much skip all the living story up to this point, and jump into this chapter and have Modremoth just take control of his minions and have it make no less sense.

I’m guessing that HoT might be campaign style then? Though it helped, you didn’t need to have played Prophecies to play or understand Factions, and new players might not need to have played LS1 and 2 to understand what’s happening in HoT.

Shiren.9532:

Omadd’s machine is still very relevant. It gave us the first real hints that sylvari are dragon minions.

Actually I think one of the first hints was actually the Sylvari immunity to Zhaitan’s corruption. Still there’s a lot of hints here and there I’m sure.

Mordremoth was still sleeping when he broke through Ceara’s mind, and it took a while for Scarlet to break. Maybe the change from Ceara to Scarlet is all it took (she steps out of the machine as Scarlet) but her story last year suggested Scarlet was resisting. This is important because the method in which Mordremoth influences sylvari will be central moving forward. My suspicion is it’s not simply Soundless – the cut scenes I believe exclusively show sylvari fighting non-sylvari, suggesting every Pact sylvari in the siege was turned. I don’t believe all the Pact sylvari are soundless, I suspect Mordremoth needs to be in proximity to the sylvari and possibly that the Pale Tree needs to be weakened so she can’t offer protection to other sylvari as they travel far from the tree (leader must die so all others will fall in line – this is clearly the Pale Tree). Obviously when we adventure into Heart of Thorns sylvari will be immune to the corruption to some extent (PC sylvari need to access the same content) so there will be some degree of immunity.

And that brings me to something I do want to talk about. Wynne knows that sylvari are all dragon minions of Mordremoth, it’s her unique burden to carry. It makes all of her dialogue interesting. What does she do with that information? If knowledge of the sylvari origins was Wynne’s wyld hunt, that might suggest to us why she was in the Silverwastes researching Ventari and running into a mursaat(?) city hidden behind forgotten/ascension glyphs. My guess is Wynne’s wild hunt was to find a way change the sylvari destiny and keep them from falling to Mordremoth.

Keeping that in mind, Wynne has some interesting dialogue in the Newly Awakened that might give insight into what a sylvari thinks when they know their race are dragon minions.

Wynne: I don’t understand how anyone can be indifferent to our own kind. We are so few and so fragile. Trying too hard to be noble…and good. We must rely on and support one another. No matter what.
Caithe: She’s not being indifferent. She simply believes in the freedom to choose.
Wynne: We all do. But what harm is there in teaching which path is better. We know more. We’ve been here longer.
Caithe: Not so much longer that we can know what’s right for others, for them.

Now mostly I believe this dialogue is foreshadowing the fight for survival and isolation from the other races the sylvari will experience in Heart of Thorns (Trahearne also foreshadows this when he talks to Caithe about their race trying to survive and sylvari needing to protect each other) but it might also suggest that Wynne thinks that if sylvari behave virtuous and are raised that way, it might help them keep their minds warded from Mordremoth (or more inclined to remain under the protection of the Pale Tree).

Wynne and Caithe are special among the sylvari – they have lived most of their lives with the knowledge their brothers and sisters, that they themselves, are creatures that the rest of the Tyria fears more than most things. Their actions and words (more so Caithe’s than Wynne’s) are worth reviewing with the new knowledge. What lengths have they gone to to protect this secret? What preparations have they made for when it would inevitably come out or for when the time comes for Mordremoth to wake?

I think there are actually multiple layers to how Ceara got corrupted.

Part of it is that Dream sylvari, and possibly also Nightmare sylvari, are protected by the Pale Tree and the Dream. Scarlet became vulnerable because she abandoned both – however, until Mordremoth started to stir, Scarlet was the only Soundless to be vulnerable. So Omadd’s machine was a part of her corruption.

However, the sylvari PC entering Omadd’s machine has shown no signs of becoming the next Scarlet, even as we do start seeing even Dream sylvari begin to succumb. So the machine, in itself, is not a sufficient condition to make a Scarlet. There were two required elements: rejecting the Pale Tree and the Dream, and entering the machine.

Vorrp’s opinion that Scarlet only took into the Machine what she brought with her is one that’s been contradicted by other sources, but in light of recent revelations, I suspect that it’s probably where the corruption came from – each sylvari has some touch of the dragon lingering within them. Normally, this is buried deep, however…

I think an analogy can be made here between the machine, and the experience of Jora and Svanir with Drakkar. While sleeping frozen within the lake, Drakkar was unable to reach out directly, but it could respond if something made contact with it, as Svanir’s spell did. Similarly, entering the Machine brings a sylvari into contact with the touch of Mordremoth within them – which was normally buried deep enough to keep it safe, but which the Machine brings a sylvari within it into direct contact with the draconic residue.

To continue the metaphor, in this circumstance Ceara was like Svanir – she opened herself up to it, and was corrupted by it. Now, the shard of Mordremoth within her is much weaker than the dragon or even the dragon champion, and it was not enough to truly take control of her… but it was able to shift her personality to something more suited to its goals, and manipulate her as the Entity. It’s doubtful even now that Scarlet truly believed she was acting on behalf of Mordremoth instead of herself – she possibly even believed she was fighting Mordremoth, while being tricked into doing what was necessary to waken the dragon.

The sylvari PC, on the other hand, is like Jora – while exposed, the sylvari PC resisted the influence, and as far as we currently know has not been affected by it.

Once Mordremoth started to waken, however, Mordremoth’s own will is much stronger than the shard of the dragon buried in each sylvari’s psyche, and is thus able to seize control of sylvari without requiring artificial elements like Omadd’s machine. At first, it could only seize control of sylvari with weakened defenses, namely other Soundless like Aerin – as Mordremoth grew more powerful and the Pale Tree was injured by the Shadow of the Dragon’s attack, however, Mordremoth gained the power to mind-control even weaker-willed Dream sylvari, like those on the Pact fleet.