Guild Wars 2

Last spoiler warning. Beyond this line is a SPOILER Discussion!

So now we learn Jormag is active as well with Primordus.

Along with information that a lot of magical energy is heading South into the Unending Ocean areas.

The entire Elder Dragon Awakening Cycle is also now completely destroyed due to the sudden burst of Magical energy from Mordy’s death into the world.

Looks like a all out Elder Dragon War is about to begin in my opinion.

The awakening cycle is unaffected because Mordremoth was the last Elder Dragon to wake up.

The Elder Dragons become “active” is just Tyrian speak for “they’re doing stuff (again)”, which they tend to overlap with anyways (both Jormag and Zhaitan were active during the PS, after all; we just manage to push Jormag back – or rather, norn players, Priory players, and Grawl/Quaggan sympathizing players do – before he can make an assault like Zhaitan did).

It’s been my theory that all three Central Tyrian ED would become active in S3. Two down, Kralkatorrik to go.

Or maybe the DSD becomes attracted to the magical increase in the south?

Whilst I’m not sure about this whole merging of Dragon powers into “super dragons”, if the DSD isn’t brought in until later, I wonder if they will find a way of using this power absoprtion to bring him closer to land so avoid the underwater fight problem.

If so, that would be a bigger disappointment than them moving Primordus to the Ring of Fire and ignoring the epic Depths of Tyria.

Say, why aren’t the asura, skritt, and other forced-from-underground races returning now that Primordus is no longer there?

Oh, and does this mean that Primordus never moved in 200 years thus retconing Jeff Grubb and previous in-game lore about Primordus moving about to spread destroyers across Central Tyria?

I agree with not wanting to ignore the Depths. I hope we find a way to push Primordus back just so we can have the Depths to explore. There’s going to be a lot of unhappiness if we don’t get to return there I’m already concerned there are no more dwarves beyond “Rock Face” as it is, but to completely skip all that would be continuing to throw away more potential under the bus.

Hopefully they wont do that…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If so, that would be a bigger disappointment than them moving Primordus to the Ring of Fire and ignoring the epic Depths of Tyria.

Say, why aren’t the asura, skritt, and other forced-from-underground races returning now that Primordus is no longer there?

Oh, and does this mean that Primordus never moved in 200 years thus retconing Jeff Grubb and previous in-game lore about Primordus moving about to spread destroyers across Central Tyria?

While I am equally miffed about implying- twice!- that Primordus not only wasn’t active, but was actually still sleeping, I don’t think the ship has sailed for fighting him in the Depths. Yes, he’s not under the Shiverpeaks anymore, and yes, our stony faced friend seems convinced he’s moving towards the surface, but under the Ring of Fire moving up is still within the Depths. And, as a metagame consideration- there’s only room for one more map in the Ring of Fire, mayyyybe two. Unless we’re going to take down an Elder Dragon in two Living World episodes, there just isn’t enough room around those volcanoes for that plot.

On Grubb’s interview: we’ve known ever since the end of the Scarlet arc and the Secondborn dating fiasco that they don’t feel beholden to the old lore interviews. We don’t have to like it, but they were frank with us back then, so it isn’t fair to keep acting like it’s an outrageous breach of etiquette when it happens.

But IIRC there was also dialogue in-game which mentioned this. And if Primordus wasn’t active, how the heck did destroyers get as far from him as Brisban Wildlands, Mount Maelstrom, and nearby Ebonhawke (Blazeridge Steppes/Fields of Ruin area)?

Speaking of the cycle of awakening, I’m wondering if the ‘spectrum’ of magic has anything to do with it.

Is Primordus always the first to rise (if he always is) because his ‘spectrum’ of magic is the easiest to absorb, or is it more potent than other forms of magic so he requires less of it to wake up? I suppose it could also be because of their size.

Mordremoth is interesting because he got given breakfast in bed by Scarlet which would have accelerated his awakening, but I’ve always been interested in why they wake up when they do. It could just be as simple as certain Elder Dragons wanting more magic before they wake up than others like some humans needing 6 hours sleep whilst others need 10, but especially now we know it’s a spectrum (at least according to Taimi) I wonder now how it influences their awakening.

In addition, I may have missed this while playing episode 2 but if what Taimi says is true, why are they only interested in other ED’s domains after they die? Why not compete for their domains constantly? I assume it’s because certain EDs are just naturally better at absorbing certain domains than others and with that Elder Dragon dead, the others can actually absorb it without too much resistance.

Maybe their waking patterns are size based? Primordus looked quite small in GW1, whilst Kralk and Mord seem to me to be the largest. Smaller Dragons maybe require less to wake or maybe the larger ones took longer to absorb what they needed to rest again, hence the slight staggering.

Or maybe there is no reason or pattern. 200 years gap is quite insignificant compared to the interval.

Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is still a thing. They didn’t change that at least. The dwarf we find in the Ring of Fire confirms it if you go back and ask him about his history.

But why would he move to the ring of fire. Lazarus wasn’t there, and the bloodstone does him no good. Besides, he was closer to the one in the Shiverpeaks to begin with.

He moved there because the magic from Mordremoth went south. It does seem a rather long way to detect a magical surge and there is every chance the DSD and Kralk could detect it as well depending how far away from the RoF they are now.

We were told why he moved. An abundant amount of energy – from Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s deaths – had gathered there.

Squee.7829:

Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is still a thing. They didn’t change that at least. The dwarf we find in the Ring of Fire confirms it if you go back and ask him about his history.

Forgot to comment on this. The thing is that Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is the retcon. Older lore stated he’s been moving about since waking up, clearing out tracks of land deep underground (aka making the Depths bigger) and spawning destroyers across (subcontinental) Tyria (hence why we see them in Brisban, Kessex, Maelstrom, and Ascalon in EoD).

With the new explanation (aka retcon) we’re left wondering why the heck there are destroyers all over the place.

Pfft. Fire and Ice is SO 2013. (Or… 1275 AE? I forget the in-game year.)

I’m not sure how that’s really a retcon. The dwarf never said he woke up and just tunneled straight to RoF. It’s been 200 ish years. He had plenty of time to get there. We don’t know exactly how long Primordus had been under the island. We only know the dwarf has been there “for ages” but the dwarves have been fighting Prim for centuries now (and for a second time) and might have sent Orestriker and Co. ahead of Prim, as they knew that’s where he’d ultimately end up. (Also, they only sent 4? That might have some weird implications)

The RoF might be where the dragon ended up, but nothing ever said he hasn’t been other places doing other things between his awakening and his arrival.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Squee.7829:

Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is still a thing. They didn’t change that at least. The dwarf we find in the Ring of Fire confirms it if you go back and ask him about his history.

Forgot to comment on this. The thing is that Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is the retcon. Older lore stated he’s been moving about since waking up, clearing out tracks of land deep underground (aka making the Depths bigger) and spawning destroyers across (subcontinental) Tyria (hence why we see them in Brisban, Kessex, Maelstrom, and Ascalon in EoD).

With the new explanation (aka retcon) we’re left wondering why the heck there are destroyers all over the place.

Is it possible do we think, that he woke up, cleared out the Depths and returned to his “lair” in the Central Transfer Chamber once his territory was marked out. Dragons appear to prefer a central lair to occupy.

The other possibility is that “he moved about” is a collective reference to his minions. Often when NPCs refer to Zhaitan or Mordremoths attacks, they refer to his army, but since everything is essentially linked back to the Dragon, the movement/aggression is referred to collectively.

And the old lore was fairly vague about it. It really just said Primordus was “moving about”. It never said he was moving to mount maelstrom. It never said he was moving to Boca to live out his golden years watching the sun set. It just said he was moving. And eventually he moved to the Ring of Fire Islands.

Also having Destroyers in , for example, Kessex Hills, doesn’t mean that Primordus himself was there. Just that his Minions found a Way to this Location. Its likely that Primordus moved around but stood most of the Time in the Shiverpeaks ( And well the Shiverpeaks are more than big enough for him moving around and still staying in the Shiverpeaks ), having enough Magic to eat there. He is only moving to the Fire Islands because there are vast amounts of Magic there now.

Squee.7829:

I’m not sure how that’s really a retcon. The dwarf never said he woke up and just tunneled straight to RoF. It’s been 200 ish years. He had plenty of time to get there. We don’t know exactly how long Primordus had been under the island. We only know the dwarf has been there “for ages” but the dwarves have been fighting Prim for centuries now (and for a second time) and might have sent Orestriker and Co. ahead of Prim, as they knew that’s where he’d ultimately end up. (Also, they only sent 4? That might have some weird implications)

The RoF might be where the dragon ended up, but nothing ever said he hasn’t been other places doing other things between his awakening and his arrival.

Seis’ dialogue indicates the moving was recent, and it was a straight path to the Ring of Fire.

Rhoban’s dialogue also sounds like Primordus being at the Ring of Fire only recently, matching Seis’ achievements perfectly. There’s also Taimi’s dialogue, which practically claims Primordus was asleep still for the past 200 years…

Randulf.7614:

Is it possible do we think, that he woke up, cleared out the Depths and returned to his “lair” in the Central Transfer Chamber once his territory was marked out. Dragons appear to prefer a central lair to occupy.

You mean ZHaitan did.

Jormag’s been constantly pushing south since it awoke in the Furious Stretch area. Kralkatorrik instantly flew away and certainly didn’t stick around his victorious battlefield. Mordremoth was spreading across the continent, only sticking his main body in place to feed on ley lines. The DSD has been moving about pushing sea creatures out – with new lore, the karka were kicked out not recently but about 100 years ago (petrified egg trinket from one of the heart vendors is dated to the rising of Orr) while the quaggan was forced out 50 years ago.

Only Zhaitan remained in place, doing nothing personally.

Also having Destroyers in , for example, Kessex Hills, doesn’t mean that Primordus himself was there. Just that his Minions found a Way to this Location. Its likely that Primordus moved around but stood most of the Time in the Shiverpeaks ( And well the Shiverpeaks are more than big enough for him moving around and still staying in the Shiverpeaks ), having enough Magic to eat there. He is only moving to the Fire Islands because there are vast amounts of Magic there now.

The wording was that Primordus’ movement is why the destroyers are widespread. Which would mean that Primordus’ movements were also somewhat widespread. It may not mean “he was at one point underneath Brisban Wildlands” but it does mean “he moved close enough that his destroyers got there”.

But Seis’ achievements/dialogues and Rhoban’s dialogues, as well as Taimi’s, indicate that Primordus has not only been inactive on the surface, but practically asleep and remained in the Central Transfer Chamber area for the past 200.

Taimi: According to what I documented, Primordus is awake— you know this. But here’s the more part…
Taimi: It’s moved! Tunneled its way down to the Fire Islands, south of Maguuma.

This line particularly is the counteraction. Combined with Seis and Rhoban reads that they completely discounted the lore that they had established, the explanation for why we see destroyers across the continent from Primordus – something unseen with any other Elder Dragon, especially those who like to remain in place like Zhaitan.

Again they might be referring to Primordus’ movement as his influence/army rather than him physically. I’m not saying they haven’t retconned anything, but it is possible to take that wording and apply it differently. In fact it is very common to do so.

Maybe I am missing something, but isn’t it possible the Destroyers could have been in somewhere like Brisban w/o the need for Primordus to be nearby? Zhaitans minions spread far and wide after all.

Unfortunately the site of the interview (guildmag.com) is down so I cannot access the exact wording, and though I’m certain the same was said in-game somewhere obscure I don’t recall where, but IIRC the wording was that Primordus was personally clearing out tracks of land underground.

A dragon champion would be needed. Dragon minions only spread out far under the rule of dragon champion or Elder Dragon.

No dragon champions known in those areas. (The Megadestroyer was made a champion rank by the asura, as originally it was just a regular Destroyer Troll; and there’s no destroyer champions in Ascalon or Brisban).

We actually have no idea if the other dragons are moving their physical bodies or not. We have literally never seen a dragon physically move, with the exception of kralk, and he only moved to the Crystal Desert to do one specific thing. He very well could have gone to some permanent roost.
We know Jormag is “pushing” south, but we haven’t physically seen it since some norn knocked its tooth out.

We know DSD has been “pushing” sea critters from their homes, but have seen no sign of its own physical presence.

Technically speaking, we have more evidence that the dragons themselves prefer to find one spot and remain stationary, spreading their influence through minions. I mean, two dragons isn’t exactly substantial evidence, but we have literally no evidence that they prefer to move a lot.

Edit: Move a lot without reason. We know they can move, obviously, but tend not to. Killing a rogue minion would be one reason. Finding a set of volcanic islands suddenly has more tasty magic than your current spot would be another.

We actually do know that Jormag has physically moved. He awoke far north of where the norn lived in GW1, close to the arctic sea where the kodan lived, and the norn skaalds explicitly state that it was flying over the norn as they retreated south before having to retreat back north itself because of Owl.

Has physically moved, sure. But physically moving? I know it sounds like nit picking, and i wouldn’t really disagree, but I never meant to imply that “dragon wakes up, dragon immediately makes minions from his bed, dragon profits”. More that dragons will pick a spot, and stay there. In Zhaitans case, he did wake up and stay in Orr. But others might wake up and find other spots more appealing. I.e kralk and wherever he went.

As far as we’re aware, Jormag has been moving, just not over great distances but not merely sitting in the same 1,000 feet radius like Zhaitan was.

And that’s what we were told was the situation for Primordus too, that he’s moving, not moved.

And honestly, yes, it is nitpicking, given that the Elder Dragons act in pulses of activity, you’d not expect them to be moving 24/7. Else they’d have circled over the globe several times over within a single year. So obviously even the most active ones will move, sit for a decade or more, move again, sit around again. Likely just going from magical hotspot to magical hotspot.

I know these posts are old but I am hoping we can reopen this or start it from this point, Sorry Mod this was just too good to pass up.

Lets take a step back to GW1, I’d like to remind folks that the Great Destroyer is the one that woke up. Our buddy Prim. woke up because the Asura were using him like a Giant battery and he woke up on them from sucking his energy. Now as Prim. is the Elder dragon clearly with Fire he does have another portfolio as I am convinced each Elder Dragon has two. I will assume that Balthazar was one of his creators and I will assume that the second would be possibly Melandru (the earth factor). Also with this in mind we can assume that these dragons were given a mission when they woke up to start setting into play the End Times and recreate the world. The dragons need then to soak up all the magic they can find. So Prim. could have been wandering around trying to collect his energy but still very low thanks to the Assura. So my thought is its been slow going for Prim. just like traveling through rock. And we need to keep in mind in order to maintain the balance of the powers given to the Dragons by the Gods when a Dragon dies those powers need to be divided or we’d have some serious power shifts in the elements. I am more interested what happens when the Gods Guard Dogs are put to sleep permanently . I will assume the Gods will feel the power shifts and come to find out and not be too happy with the races for destroying their plan

Primordus didn’t wake up because the asura were using the magic he naturally leaked out while hibernating. He woke up for the same reason all Elder Dragons woke up – magic in the world rose to a certain point. He was going to wake up earlier, via his herald The Great Destroyer giving him magic just as Drakkar did to Jormag, but we killed The Great Destroyer thus setting Primordus back 50 years (to wake up about the same time as the DSD); a similar thing happened to Kralkatorrik but rather than being killed Glint was purified (or Kralkatorrik overall lacked a herald, or said herald was killed as part of Glint’s preparations – we’re not really sure as there’s conflicting implication of whether Kralkatorrik was asleep or awake when Glint was purified).

Nothing needs to convince each Elder Dragon has two domains – we’re outright told this by the Durmand Priory in Season 2.

None of the Six Gods could have created any of the Elder Dragons, let alone Balthazar and Melandru creating Primordus. The Six Gods didn’t step foot onto the world of Tyria until after the previous dragonrise – Primordus and the other Elder Dragons are at least 9,000 years older than the time the Six Gods first walked on Tyria.

If the Elder Dragons and Six Gods have any direct connection, it is via the general purpose they hold (balancers of magic) or a connection between the Elder Dragons (or past Elder Dragons) and entire previous generation(s) of Six Gods.

In theory, Primordus would have the easiest time, since ley lines are naturally underground – closer to Primordus than any other Elder Dragon.

Also, please press enter sometime in the middle of your theorizing. Makes it hard to read and follow when it’s just a block of text.

macon.4065:

I know these posts are old but I am hoping we can reopen this or start it from this point, Sorry Mod this was just too good to pass up.

There’s no harm in necromancing an old thread, so long as there is some productive discussion to come of it. If it’s just to say something like “OMG yes!” or equally inane, that’s what the block is for.

Konig refuted most of the rest of your post, but I’ll focus on this.

And we need to keep in mind in order to maintain the balance of the powers given to the Dragons by the Gods when a Dragon dies those powers need to be divided or we’d have some serious power shifts in the elements. I am more interested what happens when the Gods Guard Dogs are put to sleep permanently . I will assume the Gods will feel the power shifts and come to find out and not be too happy with the races for destroying their plan

Even if the Six Gods were in any way involved with the dragons, which they aren’t, I don’t see them coming back just because we started slaughtering them. They could have created them as a test, one that the five races are finally able to succeed. It would take a pretty massive action to bring the Six back to Tyria, and I don’t see that happening any time soon. Plus, if they did return, that would be a massive power shift in favour of the humans, and none of the other races really need that. I think they’re still the most popular race for characters to create.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s been my theory that all three Central Tyrian ED would become active in S3. Two down, Kralkatorrik to go.

Is K considered Central Tyrian? I figured they would save him for an expansion into Elona.

But yeah, I had expected the next storyline to be a song of fire and ice too.

Edit: Wow, just noticed how old that post was. The one I replied to, that is, not the link. But that too.

We see the Crystal Desert on our magical portable maps, so I’d say he’s a central Tyrian dragon. Hopefully, we will get to see some of Elona when we eventually head that way, but for now, it’s either Ebonhawke or Mount Maelstrom for as far southeast we go.

ahem… https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Primordus

Interesting information we have gathered here. I tend to find that their is an answer that the Devs have thought about but perhaps have gone a different direction.

The return of the 6 now this is interesting. I thought of this because clearly someone or something we at work in the creation for the Dragons. I mean from the stories they wake up destroy everything, suck up the magic and then go back to sleep. Somehow that cycle got into place.

I’m not sure the 6 would indeed favor the Humans. Besides we all know that the term god for the humans could be just that different. These “gods” could have been in fact supped up characters that travels or existed and moved on into other realms. Perhaps that is where we are getting the Fissures of Woe, The Underworld etc. from.

I do not have good expectations about this “fire and ice” thing, it seems to me:

1. A means of shortening the game, maybe even sign of closure, “we must kill 2 dragons soon to go faster.”
2. A means to make final fight against dragons cheaper. “It will not take a great battle because they are already injured after fighting against each other.”
3. A much weaker expansion than HoT.

My expectations will be wrong in the future if:

1. Facing 2 dragons mean double content in relation to HoT.
2. If develop into a plot more attractive and larger than HoT.
3. A really great expansion.
4. 2 large final battles, more epic and more interesting than the two dragons we faced before (Mordy and Zaithan).

ugrakarma.9416:

I do not have good expectations about this “fire and ice” thing, it seems to me:

1. A means of shortening the game, maybe even sign of closure, “we must kill 2 dragons soon to go faster.”
2. A means to make final fight against dragons cheaper. “It will not take a great battle because they are already injured after fighting against each other.”
3. A much weaker expansion than HoT.

My expectations will be wrong in the future if:

1. Facing 2 dragons mean double content in relation to HoT.
2. If develop into a plot more attractive and larger than HoT.
3. A really great expansion.
4. 2 large final battles, more epic and more interesting than the two dragons we faced before (Mordy and Zaithan).

I personally see it as a means to finally push beyond having the Elder Dragons as the main antagonist and the main World threat.

Back in GW1 each story/expansion had a different focus on their story despite having some small link but they never felt too dragged on for too long.

GW2 story involving the Elder Dragons felt it was dragging on too long now and felt like the Elder Dragons were just waiting in one spot for the Commander to rally a force to kill them one at a time or just being lazy and expect their minions to do all the work for them only to die one at a time because they didn’t want to do things themselves.

I personally say it may be time to move beyond this Elder Dragon Saga and move into a new one as the only thing keeping the Commander and his allies in the current lands of Tyria and not expanding beyond into Cantha, Elona, or other lands is because all the Elder Dragons are all located in one location of the World being the Map we have now.

The world of Tyria is a much larger place and 90% of the world has yet to be explored but for some reason all Elder Dragons are located and awakened in one convenient spot to keep the story in this one Map we have until they are all dead.

They need to shake things up. Next expansion should be a musical, lots of singing, dancing. But…tasteful stuff, then the next class can be Bard, and maybe we can end this epic with a tropical serenade to DSD, while Krackle corpse glitters in the background.