Guild Wars 2

MAJOR SPOILER WARNING THIS TIME! Beyond this line is a MAJOR SPOILERS discussion!!!!!

So that was unexpect event at the end of episode 2.

I still do not trsut Lazarus after all he has done for generations and the amount of people he has help kill over greed for being a “high race”

Still i would be greatly surprised if Lazarus does end up turning out to have turned good.

What do you guy’s think? Is Lazarus still predictably evil in secret and only using the Commander or has he really learned what his Race has done is wrong and actually want to atone for his and his entire Race mistake.

Last we saw him, he swore endless suffering on countless generations because we messed with his ability to use magic.

Does that seem like a guy who’d turn over a new leaf? Not to me.

And if he does… -sigh-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Last we saw him, he swore endless suffering on countless generations because we messed with his ability to use magic.

Does that seem like a guy who’d turn over a new leaf? Not to me.

And if he does… -sigh-

meh who can really know what goes on the head of a person who spent over 250 years doing nothing but thinking about his life and where it went wrong while stuck in a giant magical brick.

I’m pretty sure there’s something he’s not telling us. I doubt we’ll find that out very soon, but there’s every reason he could be another Palawa Joko.

But, for now, our goals happen to align.

Lazarus has nothing lol. His species is dead. He lost to the dragons. He lost to the humans. The Mursaat are really good at losing because of their own pride. I’d hope Lazarus learned something after everything he’s endured. Could he even take revenge? Sure he’s strong, but it’s not like he already almost died to humans.

He almost died before he absorbed a Bloodstone’s worth of power. He was just one normal mursaat back then. Now he’s basically the Superman of mursaat.

So a lot has changed with what he’s capable of.

And if he is just tricking the Pact Commander (who’s to say that he isn’t the reason why the defenses failed? After all, mursaat and Forgotten worked close together so they have similar magic), then it’s possible he’s waiting for either the Pact Commander to be weakened, or waiting to absorb more magic and become more powerful.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And if he is just tricking the Pact Commander (who’s to say that he isn’t the reason why the defenses failed? After all, mursaat and Forgotten worked close together so they have similar magic), then it’s possible he’s waiting for either the Pact Commander to be weakened, or waiting to absorb more magic and become more powerful.

I would say that if he is tricking us ( well his Timing at the Last Instance was nearly perfect, too perfect ), he is waiting until we kill another Elder Dragon. He knows that we killed 2 of them where entire Civilisations failed to kill even one. So for him we are a very useful Ally. He thinks that we have the best Chance, so he is “helping” us out.

We’ll see his Endgame when Primordus is dead and he is absorbing its Energy. ( Ironically our Characters now also can absorb Magical Energy, its possible that we also absorb some of the Elder Dragon’s Energy after its Death then, which could be a WTF Moment for Lazarus. )

Walhalla.5473:

We’ll see his Endgame when Primordus is dead and he is absorbing its Energy. ( Ironically our Characters now also can absorb Magical Energy, its possible that we also absorb some of the Elder Dragon’s Energy after its Death then, which could be a WTF Moment for Lazarus. )

In the next expansion, we only have one hero point.

It’s a channel, right on the corpse of the next dragon we kill, and it grants all the hero points needed to fully unlock the next elite specialisation for your profession… which happens to be themed on the dragon we just killed.

Legendary Destroyer Stance for revenants, anyone? :P

Walhalla.5473:

We’ll see his Endgame when Primordus is dead and he is absorbing its Energy. ( Ironically our Characters now also can absorb Magical Energy, its possible that we also absorb some of the Elder Dragon’s Energy after its Death then, which could be a WTF Moment for Lazarus. )

Lazarus: “You are… Dragonborn. But such a thing… surely that’s not possible…”

He wants to help us kill the dragons so he can have the magic for him self. That’s my feeling, even if he did save me when it looked like I was a gonna.

My theory? I think he wants to resurrect the Mursaat.

Become a god is my second guess.

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

Maj is ploting something… since Lazarus(i think its the name of the guy that heplp saving the new Glint) returned from the dead maybe she will try to bring her sister??

Wich will result in Kas death.

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

If Kas shows up anyway. Her, Rox, and Braham have been surprisingly absent for everything going on. It makes me wonder what they’re up to.

Like the proverb says, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Lazarus is taking advantage of the situation; Primordus happens to be situated in a pretty important location: the site of an other Bloodstone. While the Fire Dragon wasn’t driven to the Ring of Fire because of the Bloodstone itself (since, once inside the stone, the magic is hidden), the immense flow of magic around the Bloodstone is definitely what attracted it.

By getting rid of Primordus, Lazarus could get his hands on another Bloodstone.

I certainly believe Lazarus isn’t done with his search for power. Evil or good? He doesn’t care, the end justifies the means.

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

Kas won’t show up. Marjory killed her in a bout of erotic asphyxiation and buried her in the back yard. This is why she’s joined up with Lazarus.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

If Kas shows up anyway. Her, Rox, and Braham have been surprisingly absent for everything going on. It makes me wonder what they’re up to.

Braham appears to be dealing with the Jormag side of things in the Shiverpeaks.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

If Kas shows up anyway. Her, Rox, and Braham have been surprisingly absent for everything going on. It makes me wonder what they’re up to.

Braham appears to be dealing with the Jormag side of things in the Shiverpeaks.

Which leaves Kas, the only one unaccounted for. Is she having to deal with stuff on the nobility side, or did she and Jory get in a fight, and that’s why she hasn’t shown up?

How very convenient to have the egg barrier fail when the Exalted’s preservation magic is supposed to keep dragon minions out. My bet is Lazarus disabled the shield, allowing the destroyers to enter Tarir, and then swooped in to offer help. How could we say no?

That’s my thought as well. How did he even know about the egg in the first place? Or that it would hatch, or that we’d need help? What if we didn’t need help – would he have just showed up and gone “Uh… Commander, I know this is awkward with me being in this super secret, highly defended place of vast importance but I want you to trust me and let me help you fight the Elder Dragons.”

Plus there are some holes in his explanation for wanting to help.

It’s either betrayal, one hell of a coincidence, or bad writing trying to be epic writing (and yeah, the scene was epic, but once you get past the “fighting alongside a mursaat” bit, it becomes “wait… why?”)

Scipio.3204:

Couldn’t Kasmeer find out his intentions? I mean she is supposed to know whether people lie or don’t

Here’s the thing, though: Kasmeer can only read people for whose species she’s familiar. When she first met the Itzel, she couldn’t get a good read on their intentions. Luckily, they were on our side, and presumably after hanging out in the village for a while, she got to know their rhythms a bit better. Lazarus, though, is the last of his species, and unlike the Itzel being at least hylek in nature, there’s not really a baseline for her to read. I think even if she does show up in the story, she’ll be hard-pressed to read him. Or maybe because she’s a human lie detector, that’s why she’s been kept away from the last mursaat for so long.

Personally, I’m willing to trust Lazarus, at least for now. The mursaat back in Kryta weren’t all bad until we realized they were sacrificing humans to power up the bloodstones and keep the Door of Komalie closed. Lazarus also said point-blank that he has no interest in human politics, and had bigger goals in mind. Presumably, those goals are keeping the dragons down. I’ll keep him around to help slay the next dragon, and watch his actions. Could he make a grab for power? Sure, no one does anything that doesn’t benefit them at least a little bit, but I don’t think he’s after power. Even if he gets it, what then? What’s his end goal?

Rognik.2579:

Personally, I’m willing to trust Lazarus, at least for now. The mursaat back in Kryta weren’t all bad until we realized they were sacrificing humans to power up the bloodstones and keep the Door of Komalie closed.

“They weren’t bad until we realize they’ve been doing bad things for years before we caught them in the act” is not a very… intelligent claim.

The White Mantle were doing the Test of the Chosen since 1067 AE (five years by times of Prophecies), though maybe not the sacrificing part. But they certainly were since 1070 AE (thus two years), and their first act in Kryta was to wipe out dozens of their own followers simply because they saw the mursaat.

How can that “not be bad”?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How can that “not be bad”?

Not what I said. I said they weren’t all bad. Oh, they were pretty bad, and even if my GW1 character knew then what his scion knows now, he would’ve still done exactly the same thing, but the kingdom was thriving. Orr sank and nearly wiped out the race. Ascalon burned, the water turned to tar; then Adelbern goes all final solution and turned his people into eternal ghosts. Kryta is still there, and still a human kingdom. Clearly something was done right.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s my thought as well. How did he even know about the egg in the first place? Or that it would hatch, or that we’d need help? What if we didn’t need help – would he have just showed up and gone “Uh… Commander, I know this is awkward with me being in this super secret, highly defended place of vast importance but I want you to trust me and let me help you fight the Elder Dragons.”

Plus there are some holes in his explanation for wanting to help.

It’s either betrayal, one hell of a coincidence, or bad writing trying to be epic writing (and yeah, the scene was epic, but once you get past the “fighting alongside a mursaat” bit, it becomes “wait… why?”)

Not necessarily a coincidence. I think Aurene’s hatching may have been a major cosmic beacon, sending “Something big is happening here!” signals through the ley-lines that drew The Commander, The Destroyers, and Lazarus all at once.

As far as Lazarus changing – Maybe. I kind of hope so, because he was absolutely epic in his appearance. Sure, the Mursaat we knew were treacherous deceivers… But have you seen where that got them? They ALL died.

See, I find it personally more likely that the reason for the failure of the barrier was the inclusion of Mordremoth magic within the baby Dragon. I mean, we can see the effect of the magic in it’s appearance, it likely changed enough about the baby that the barrier no longer considered it the Legacy. It is likely that they hadn’t planned for an elder Dragon to have died before the egg hatched and grew, seeing as the Exalted hadn’t been prepared for Mordremoth.

Sartharina.3542:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s my thought as well. How did he even know about the egg in the first place? Or that it would hatch, or that we’d need help? What if we didn’t need help – would he have just showed up and gone “Uh… Commander, I know this is awkward with me being in this super secret, highly defended place of vast importance but I want you to trust me and let me help you fight the Elder Dragons.”

Plus there are some holes in his explanation for wanting to help.

It’s either betrayal, one hell of a coincidence, or bad writing trying to be epic writing (and yeah, the scene was epic, but once you get past the “fighting alongside a mursaat” bit, it becomes “wait… why?”)

Not necessarily a coincidence. I think Aurene’s hatching may have been a major cosmic beacon, sending “Something big is happening here!” signals through the ley-lines that drew The Commander, The Destroyers, and Lazarus all at once.

As far as Lazarus changing – Maybe. I kind of hope so, because he was absolutely epic in his appearance. Sure, the Mursaat we knew were treacherous deceivers… But have you seen where that got them? They ALL died.

Another possibility is that Lazarus was stalking us all through Episode 2. The signature feature of the mursaat, even more than Spectral Agony, is that they are Unseen unless you’re Ascended or otherwise able to spot them, which the GW2 PC explicitly isn’t – Lazarus could have been following us since he appeared to take out Caudecus’ followers, or he might have been the the mursaat ruins in Ember Bay for his own reasons, saw the PC, and followed out of curiosity until the PC returned to “Stone Face” and mentioned an “ominous vision”, further sparking Lazarus’ curiosity (particularly since even if Lazarus didn’t know who the PC was in Episode 1, he certainly seems to now).

Rognik.2579:

Kryta is still there, and still a human kingdom. Clearly something was done right.

Managing to push the charr back with superior firepower that does not nuke your own nation is not exactly doing something right when you’re also sacrificing thousands of innocent individuals over just a couple years.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rognik.2579:

Kryta is still there, and still a human kingdom. Clearly something was done right.

Managing to push the charr back with superior firepower that does not nuke your own nation is not exactly doing something right when you’re also sacrificing thousands of innocent individuals over just a couple years.

I’d retaliate about how sometimes a tyrant is needed for the good of the nation, but that’s getting to politics and I don’t want to muddy the game forum with that kind of talk. Let’s just agree to disagree for now. Past actions are done, and maybe Lazarus will try to atone for his past actions. We’ve seen too little of him to know his true intentions yet.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rognik.2579:

Kryta is still there, and still a human kingdom. Clearly something was done right.

Managing to push the charr back with superior firepower that does not nuke your own nation is not exactly doing something right when you’re also sacrificing thousands of innocent individuals over just a couple years.

Seems to have been righter than “Sink the entire nation under the water” or “Kill EVERYONE to fight the Charr Forever”

draxynnic.3719:

Another possibility is that Lazarus was stalking us all through Episode 2. The signature feature of the mursaat, even more than Spectral Agony, is that they are Unseen unless you’re Ascended or otherwise able to spot them, which the GW2 PC explicitly isn’t – Lazarus could have been following us since he appeared to take out Caudecus’ followers, or he might have been the the mursaat ruins in Ember Bay for his own reasons, saw the PC, and followed out of curiosity until the PC returned to “Stone Face” and mentioned an “ominous vision”, further sparking Lazarus’ curiosity (particularly since even if Lazarus didn’t know who the PC was in Episode 1, he certainly seems to now).

Also a good possibility that he followed us. Since we aren’t Ascended, don’t have Goggles of true Sight +2 or something similar we aren’t able to see him if he phases out. We only could see him in the Episodes because he chose to be seen.
But why would he follow us? Pretty easy. We killed 2 Dragons. Something where his God-Complex arrogant Race failed at ( together with the other Races ). Of course he would be interested in us.

Sigh.. not exactly how I read the Mursaat journals. IF they are to be believed, when the dragons get to the height of their power, they absorb ALL magic from all magic using races, by killing them off. The surviving Mursaat sidestepped into an alternate universe until the dragons went dormant again, to keep their magic.

Now, combined with Taimis theory about when a dragon dies, the surviving greater dragons take on its powers and absorbs all unbound magic around it, means one thing. Since Glint was to be the next “Great Dragon” to replace her master, and her egg takes on her qualities, her spawn is the ONLY dragon we want to survive and take on the powers of all six great dragons. Of course, who is to say it wont take on its father dragons qualities..

As another poster said above, her taking on more power than planned would affect the barrier, but that would make it stronger. I also favor the theory that Lazarus used the knowledge he had of the Forgotten from their alliance against the dragons from before to drop the barrier. He wanted to see WHO was the egg’s protector.

But, I have the disadvantage of not playing GW1 to know who his race is.

Darlgon.9273:

But, I have the disadvantage of not playing GW1 to know who his race is.

Well to sum Mursaats…

1) The were found by Saul D’Alessio when he Saul was outcated from kryta for his bad habits.

2) Saul believed the Mursaat to be Gods and they took advantage of that to manipulate him into creating the White Mantle.

3) After Saul pushed back the Char invasion with the help of 3 Mursaat being Lazarus, Mercia, and Optimus.

4) After the Victory over the Charr Lazarus, Mercia, and Optimus killed all White Mantle who did not believe they were Gods and took Saul away to keep him silent and to prevent the “Believers” from doubting them as Gods.

5) For years they manipulated the White Mantle into sacrificing people, by tricking those people into believing they were Chosen for something Great, with High Magic energy on the Bloodstone to power it which they use the Eye of Janthir to identify which lead to the death of generations of innocent people being killed. All to prevent the Flame Seeker Prophecy from happen which told about their race extinction.

If we are to believe the Tablets found on Ember Bay, the other elder races had their fair share of guilt during the last dragon rise; According to the writer of the tablets, not only did the races refuse to fight against the dragons, the Forgotten apparently “tricked” or gave up on the Mursaat at some point. After all that, it would be no surprise that the Mursaat race chose to leave the world rather than surrender their magic to someone who offered no help before.

What would make more sense, however, is that the Mursaat were actually a warmongering race (their eagerness to die to our GW1 heroes on the Battle for Lion’s Arch goes a long way in showing that), not unlike the charr, and were warned by the other elder races that the Dragons were actually important to maintain a detailed balance of the different kinds of magic. The Seers probably sought to create surrogates to hold all the magic for a long time, but the Mursaat would not settle for anything less than destroying the dragons and whatever stands in front of them.

All that said, Lazarus is certainly not like the other Mursaat anymore. To begin with he probably has no reason to fear Titans or most creatures from the Mists, as well as basically anyone who is neither a Dragon nor the PC. Even if he (very likely) is going to betray us, I highly doubt it will be as simple as a “Ha jokes on you I’m actually a bad guy!” scenario. I trust the writers at Anet that they’re going to do more justice than that to what now is a demigod who had 250 years to think up of ways to torment the younger races of Tyria.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s my thought as well. How did he even know about the egg in the first place? Or that it would hatch, or that we’d need help? What if we didn’t need help – would he have just showed up and gone “Uh… Commander, I know this is awkward with me being in this super secret, highly defended place of vast importance but I want you to trust me and let me help you fight the Elder Dragons.”

Plus there are some holes in his explanation for wanting to help.

It’s either betrayal, one hell of a coincidence, or bad writing trying to be epic writing (and yeah, the scene was epic, but once you get past the “fighting alongside a mursaat” bit, it becomes “wait… why?”)

There may have been a “disturbance in the force” when Aurene hatched. Currently, Laz is pumped full of magic from bloodstone. It may be how Primordus also knew. Of course we really don’t know if Primordus knew or if it was just and incredible coincidence.

Mordremoth knew of Tarir and the egg. It’s not far fetched to say the other Elder Dragons know, but have been too far away to launch an assault.

Similarly, the destroyers knew of Gleam in GW1. It’s probable that the Elder Dragons can innately sense each other. Would explain both situations, as well as how Kralkatorrik knew exactly where Glint was (though that could be explained by how Glint was previously Kralkatorrik’s champion).