Guild Wars 2

The White Mantle did not topple the royal family…they ran like cowards from the charr invasion. Leaving the people of Kryta to die while they saved themselves.

During the Charr invasion after King Jadon fled the throne, Saul and the White Mantle managed to turn the tide of the war against the Charr, sneaking into their camp in the dead of night and assassinating their leaders…

The White Mantle didn’t destroy kryta they saved it. Without the White Mantle there would have been no Kryta left for the Royal family to comeback to, and no one left to rule over. Its people would have been conquered and enslaved..if not all dead.

Deny the witch, burn the heretic?

the Mantle wasn’t made till after the royals fled..so they can’t topple them..

You have to consider that the shining blade probably villanised the White Mantle, and that is how things were remembered in history

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

You have to consider that the shining blade probably villanised the White Mantle, and that is how things were remembered in history

Or this cinematic just contained a bad retcon that slipped through the writing cracks.

they need to fix that…someone didn’t do their homework in guildwars 1 history

It’s cool. The story is within a raid, so like 90% of the people playing the game aren’t going to see it anyways.

“A lie told often enough becomes the truth.” – Vladimir Lenin

and that is a bold lie..and completely wrong.

hey, that’s the way that history is remembered in the modern day. The only race that cared about the White Mantle when they were in power were the Humans, and the only remaining humans are the krytans, led by the royalty and the Shining Blade, who- lets be honest – probably dont want people knowing that the Krytan royalty fled, and was replaced with council that made the average citizens life great, especially considering the power struggle between the throne and the ministry.

As a result, the Shining Blade make some “Minor edits” to the way things went down, and that is just the way of things.

When you think of how much history is defined by the victors, think of the opinion of Louie IV in the french revolution, or Napoleon after he lost his campaigns in russia, or the battle of waterloo(I think it was waterloo, I dont remember off the top of my head)
They were bad. Now consider the opinion of the Founding Fathers in the United States- They owned slaves, and even went as far to say that a colored person was only worth 3/5s of a person. And we think of them as HEROES. History as we remember it isnt always what happened.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

When you think of how much history is defined by the victors, think of the opinion of Louie IV in the french revolution, or Napoleon after he lost his campaigns in russia, or the battle of waterloo(I think it was waterloo, I dont remember off the top of my head)

Liverpool maybe…

InsidiousWaffle.7086 that maybe true and history is remembered the way it was written. because, we don’t have people who live for 1000s of years..but i lived thru gws 1 so i know the truth…and they only way to fix wrong history is to find out and tell the real history..and make sure it’s right..so before this tale of lies become the truth people will know.. that is just wrong and a bold faced lie about the White Mantle.

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands” : gws 1 wiki

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

When you think of how much history is defined by the victors, think of the opinion of Louie IV in the french revolution, or Napoleon after he lost his campaigns in russia, or the battle of waterloo(I think it was waterloo, I dont remember off the top of my head)

Liverpool maybe…

Waterloo = Napoleon
Liverpool = The Beatles

I think the Devs addressed this in a recent Guild Chat. At least, I think that’s where I heard/saw it.

Good luck.

virus.4370:

InsidiousWaffle.7086 that maybe true and history is remembered the way it was written. because, we don’t have people who live for 1000s of years..but i lived thru gws 1 so i know the truth…and they only way to fix wrong history is to find out and tell the real history..and make sure it’s right..so before this tale of lies become the truth people will know.. that is just wrong and a bold faced lie about the White Mantle.

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands” : gws 1 wiki

Here’s the problem, your character, none of our characters actually- were there. If this is the way history is remembered that is the way it is, period.

Inculpatus cedo.9234 what did they say about it?

That’s a good view of things, Bobby. I’m in the middle of Prophecies campaign, and although the White Mantle seems to have done good to Kryta, they were in truth mean. They sacrificed humans, so… whatever you say, lives were taken.

You know, here is nothing to say that this couldn’t be potentially true. The information that we have about the krytan royal family fleeing the Charr is only second hand. We do not see it for our own eyes. I would put it on the same level of the information that we have on the gods creating Tyria, which is untrue according to GW2 lore. Until Bobby just quasi confirmed it to be true, there was always potential room for the White Mantle or Mursaat to have had some hand in he disappearance of the Krytan Royal Family.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

When you think of how much history is defined by the victors, think of the opinion of Louie IV in the french revolution, or Napoleon after he lost his campaigns in russia, or the battle of waterloo(I think it was waterloo, I dont remember off the top of my head)

Liverpool maybe…

Someone needs to listen to more Abba…

:P

virus.4370:

the Mantle wasn’t made till after the royals fled..so they can’t topple them..

Not true.

Only those who have proven themselves worthy are asked to partake in this ceremony. In the past five years, all of the knights who have been promoted to the rank of zealot or justiciar had at one time administered the test.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Franklin

The Test of the Chosen, a White Mantle act, has existed for three years by the time the royal family fled due to charr.

The cinematic is told from the perspective of an NPC and we’ve never heard the details of why King Jadon fled.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

You have to consider that the shining blade probably villanised the White Mantle, and that is how things were remembered in history

They did villainize them. In War in Kryta, they called Saul a tyrant and liar, though we know he was genuinely a good hearted man.

And if you played Unknown Parents storyline, the PC thinks the White Mantle were fairytales. So not only were the good members of the White Mantle villainized but the order was effectively made into untaught historical information – comparatively to if Germany didn’t teach about kittens and kitten in their grade schools.

Heck, I just thought about this, but for all we know he story of he royal family fleeing at the sight of the charr armies could have been white mantle propaganda used to justify their existence within Kryta.

Unlike with calling Saul a deceiver, the Shining Blade didn’t suggest that King Jadon fled the throne due to the White Mantle:

The royalty of Kryta descend from King Doric, the first king of united Tyria. The Royal Line has continued uninterrupted for generations, until the great charr invasion, when the strength of Doric failed and King Jadon abandoned his throne. In the absence of a king, The White Mantle cult took control.

http://www.guildwars.com/warinkryta/sb/

While possible, I’m rather doubtful that’d have been the case. Most likely, it was Shining Blade propaganda that began after the Krytan civil war – or Bennett meant it in a general sense of the White Mantle taking power in place of the throne.

When you consider how our own history can be inaccurate at times even in the modern age.
it would be kinda strange for a NPC that wasnt alive 200 years ago to know all the exact details of what happen!

Apologies Konig, I guess I wasn’t clear. I’m fully aware that the White Mantle didn’t declare war on Jadon and conquer him or anything, I was merely stating that it was quite possible that Mursaat or White Mantle spies could have had something to do with Jadon’s fleeing the country, so think stealthy and back handed. Spies seems unlikely due to how the White Mantle seemed to be prior to Saul being taken away, but it is a possibility that there were members of the organization more loyal to the “Unseen Ones” than Saul. My whole point is that there really is room for ArenaNet to fill gaps within that period because we were not present to witness it and it is basically word of mouth.

I knew what you were meaning. What I meant, however, was that if such was the case then the Shining Blade would have been just as likely to know of it during the War in Kryta content as they would be in GW2’s time.

Given that they didn’t make such claims in WiK, however, this indicates to me that Bennett’s claim is just post-war propaganda on the Shining Blade’s part. While there is possibility for the propaganda to end up being the truth, I doubt those who began it knew it to be truth – is what I was trying to say.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

and was replaced with council that made the average citizens life great, especially considering the power struggle between the throne and the ministry.

This is wrong. The Prophecies Manuscripts, which generally present the White Mantle as good guys, make it pretty clear that if you’re not Mantle that you’re effectively a dirt-poor second-class citizen:

“Travellers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.”

“Those inside the organisation receive special priviliges (more food, better clothing, access to books) simply by abiding by the rules of the Unseen Ones and carrying out the orders handed down by the White Mantle high priest.”

In-game, there are some pretty clear indications that there’s something rotten in Paradise well before you get to the Wilds mission.

Modern Kryta still has classes, but commoners are clearly better off than GW1 Krytan citizens in huts and smocks, and even the street-rat class seems to have access to better clothing.

this is what i dont like, when they say this npc is the one telling the story so maybe hes wrong or biased? with this way of telling lore, u will have conflicting lore, instead of common knowledge amongs players. for example who is the lich king in wow? everyone will say arthas or the new guy bolvar. in GW2 if u ask about the lore u will get conflicting answer because diff. source tell you diff things.

Isn’t that how things are in real life? We’re the British the evil overlords that we Americans learn in high school history that they were? There is bias in everything, as the Priory scholars say, “History never lies, Historians however…” I honestly think that this gives us a richness of lore. As it forces you to truly grapple with the legitimacy of the claims of one individual over another. And it has been around since the beginning of Guild Wars 2, with the revelation that the gods did not, indeed create the world.

The thing about GW2 lore is that while, yes, there is some conflicting sources, there will always be sources with more credibility or more consistency than others. We know that Bennett is not telling the full objective truth because we saw it all happen, just as we know that Thrulnn the Lost is not telling the objective truth because there are dozens of other NPCs – including a ghost who had first hand experience – telling the same thing that contradicts Thrulnn’s tale.

When you have one or two guys telling one thing, and eight telling another – typically it’s more correct to go with the eight. The only exception is when that one or two have first hand knowledge and aren’t likely to be lying.

For what it’s worth I like it when fantasy has conflicting historical accounts and opinions, it makes it more realistic than when you’ve simply got The Word of God (aka the writer/s) saying “this is exactly what happened and because it’s exactly what happened every single person in this world knows and believes this one version of events”.

That never happens in real life and people in fantasy settings (even the non-human ones) are usually similar enough to people in real life that I don’t expect them to approach history differently.

(Plus it can be useful in an on-going story to have some ambiguity because it allows more room to change things later on if you need to without it getting awkward.)

I’m happy they’re writing it to incorporate NPC bias. That’s one of the cool things in ESO lore — even Zenimax’s Lore head says that there is not necessarily any one true version, and what you learn will always be filtered through those from whom you learn it. Using that technique lets Tyrian lore be more nuanced.

Of course, that does suppose they’ll give us multiple NPC sources with some conflicting lore between them. Having just one guy that we meta-know is biased isn’t quite, ah, meaty enough.

Apparently this version of events has been in the game since launch.

I’ve been exploring Brisban Wildlands on an alt and several of the Seraph mention that part of the reason they’re so concerned about the bandits in the area (other than they’re working with the Inquest) is that there are rumors that they’re associated with the White Mantle.

You can ask some of them about the White Mantle (with extra dialogue for Priory or Whispers members) and they’ll tell you the history. Apparently the accepted version of events these days, at least among the Seraph, is that the Mantle overthrew the Krytan government, as explained by one of the heart quest NPCs.

You can see a similar thing if you ask humans (especially in Ebonhawk) and charr about the Searing. Accounts vary between individuals, some have it reasonably accurate (the Priory scholars especially seem to be good at being objective), some will be wildly inaccurate and show a lot of bias towards their own race.

NPCs being able to lie or be biased certainly does add a lot of depth to the lore. Good job anet!

Well, the account of the Seraph in Brisban Wildlands is not necessarily incompatible with what we know from Guild Wars 1. The flight of the king does not necessarily mean that there wasn’t some form of government left behind that the White Mantle overthrew when they seized control. That hypothetical caretaker government could have been so ineffective that replacing it was objectively the right thing to do, but nevertheless…

Another thing to consider is that we’re basically taking the Prophecies Manuscripts at their word that the king fled of his own volition. That’s what the Shining Blade believed at the time, but they may have found evidence to the contrary after the War in Kryta. Given that the mursaat were able to go pretty much where they wanted undetected until they started facing Ascended opponents, it would have been very easy for the mursaat to have… removed the royal family to make way for the White Mantle.

draxynnic.3719:

Well, the account of the Seraph in Brisban Wildlands is not necessarily incompatible with what we know from Guild Wars 1. The flight of the king does not necessarily mean that there wasn’t some form of government left behind that the White Mantle overthrew when they seized control. That hypothetical caretaker government could have been so ineffective that replacing it was objectively the right thing to do, but nevertheless…

Another thing to consider is that we’re basically taking the Prophecies Manuscripts at their word that the king fled of his own volition. That’s what the Shining Blade believed at the time, but they may have found evidence to the contrary after the War in Kryta. Given that the mursaat were able to go pretty much where they wanted undetected until they started facing Ascended opponents, it would have been very easy for the mursaat to have… removed the royal family to make way for the White Mantle.

Already posed that theory. Some people just didn’t like it…