Guild Wars 2

I think Scarlet could use work and give us more depth of lore related details but she does not outright break any lore. I don’t meant to say I excuse the lore and writing teams of all faults but she hasn’t destroyed lore like people say.

And I love the lore.

Scarlet is not who I have a problem with, although I do focus my frustrations on her. I’ve been willing to give her much more leeway than many others. But this current update has brought out a major anger over the very close to lore breaking plot of this Living Story. And this whole lore-break wraps itself neatly around Scarlet, focusing my anger on her.

Jeff.4680:

Just because someone says something, doesn’t mean you have to agree? You could have an entirely different opinion or even just slightly agree. I wouldn’t call that peer pressure at all. Nobody’s threatening anyone to get on the forums and rage about Scarlet.

I think that’s a lame excuse of the cause behind all the Scarlet hate. She just sucks, end of story.

I never said that it was behind all the Scarlet hate. I implied it might be behind the opinion shift of people that might have a neutral view of her.

As for the bolded part, who said that there needs to be any threatening involved? The peer pressure I was talking about was conforming to the majority opinion. And in case you missed it, the forums are flooded with hate threads about her, and we’re even posting on one right now.

How is someone, who only has a neutral or even a slightly good view of her, suppose to think when they see this? A seemingly large portion of the playerbase hating on one single character, with laser point precision. Do they still agree with their own initial neutral opinion, or do they think the majority might have it correct, since obviously, almost everyone agrees with it?

Like I said before…

Isn’t peer pressure swell?

mercury ranique.2170:

Personally only a fraction of the people dislike Scarlet. but those are, as always the people who speak out on the forums. I absolutly love the character and think she is truly a job well done.

So definitely not signed.

I must day I agree with you. I really like her. Lore is not unwritten here just expanded and that has always been something that has made Guild Wars so great.

So yeah definitely not signed

I didn’t start off hating Scarlet. Initially I kind of liked the voice acting, and she had her charm. I though: Finally an entertaining villain.

But then they started pushing her as the instigator behind every alliance of the week, and it became to feel extremely shallow. And when I read her back story, about her graduating from all of the Asura colleges, that is when they really lost me.

What also annoyed me was the way Scarlet loudly announced that she would disrupt the festivities of the Queen’s pavilion, yet NO preventive measures were taken. I think GW2’s writing team should stop using the idiotball as a plot device. I propose the following:

Lets pretend for a change, that all of the characters in the story are competent. In an alternate reality, what if Queen Jennah had taken precautions, and arranged tons of siege equipment against airship attacks, and plenty of bodyguards? What if Scarlet had already second guessed this strategy, and abused the lack of guards in other areas of the capital, to steal something of value? I know, it sounds a bit like the plot from Die Hard with a Vengeance. But at least we’re not frustrated with the incompetence of everyone involved here. I like it when the writers make a solid attempt to write every character as remotely intelligent, and then try to come up with a clever plot for the villain to get around this problem. Remember how some people suggested that the assault on the Queens Pavilion would be the perfect distraction to break May Trin out of jail? When the players are coming up with better plots, it kind of makes a joke out of your Living Story.

Avatar Rage.4369:

mercury ranique.2170:

Personally only a fraction of the people dislike Scarlet. but those are, as always the people who speak out on the forums. I absolutly love the character and think she is truly a job well done.

So definitely not signed.

I must day I agree with you. I really like her. Lore is not unwritten here just expanded and that has always been something that has made Guild Wars so great.

So yeah definitely not signed

stepping all over established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and, even the Asura starting quest lore to shove scarlet in is not “expanding lore” its killing it and making scarlet the sole cause all the worlds woe for what? oh right a “pay off” that will tie it all together…No i rather she was the retconed one out not the lore that was there before her.

narrock.6890:

Avatar Rage.4369:

mercury ranique.2170:

Personally only a fraction of the people dislike Scarlet. but those are, as always the people who speak out on the forums. I absolutly love the character and think she is truly a job well done.

So definitely not signed.

I must day I agree with you. I really like her. Lore is not unwritten here just expanded and that has always been something that has made Guild Wars so great.

So yeah definitely not signed

stepping all over established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and, even the Asura starting quest lore to shove scarlet in is not “expanding lore” its killing it and making scarlet the sole cause all the worlds woe for what? oh right a “pay off” that will tie it all together…No i rather she was the retconed one out not the lore that was there before her.

Well she didn’t step over the established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and especially not the Asura starting quest Lore. ( playing the first story missions would show that only the golem was sabotaged, and the Inquest tempered with the hardware itself and not the design )

To be honest. It is really dangerous for the Lore to include the Krait becuase of their xenophobic but also religious nature and I was worried that Anet would kill the Krait Lore with the Nightmare Tower Patch but as fair as I know, they played the religion card and this is a clever one. Religion is really manipulative and with it you can even force xenophobic zealots to work with other races. There is one question the game has to answer and the answer could destroy some of the krait lore or go completely fine with it. How could Scarlet ( with Scarlet I mean her and her allies ) find the obelisk shards. I would be fine with the Airship answer, but we will see.^^

I’m still wondering what the purpose of all of this is. But I’m bracing myself for disappointment. What have all these alliances been leading up to? Was it really worth all the trouble for Scarlet?

The message seems to be alluding what happens when a person overstep their boundaries just to play god. In the end she wants to create a world that bends to the freedom of anything beyond whats predestined. Also creating life that cannot be contained or counted by simple annotations of what is good or evil. Breaking those rules to her agenda. Nevertheless so far all of her visible work shows that she is out to conduct her own personal gain with a narcissistic tendencies. She could simply labeled as a generic terrorist with a lack of strong motivations. Scarlet own goals seem to hampered by the fact she uses a rinse and repeat method in order to get what she wants. Becoming very predictable.

We get hints she is stealing stuff for a massive plan (very subtle), and she has corrupted political officials. However most of this downplayed to her cliché theatrics of doing evil deeds. It’s really bothersome because like in TA Aether path she knew exactly what everyone was up to in her facility, but the possibility of what that means is never explored. I mean Scarlet could literally be one step ahead of Caithe sneaking around with prerecorded holographic message. Really? No way of developing that any further? Or how about that emulated Steam Creature portal device that she has in Gendarran Fields. Does that means she can explore parallel universes (through the mists), and that’s why she knows how certain events will transpire? None of these questions or ideas are even remotely dealt with. We just get her constantly making one odd-out alliance after another. With no explanation to how or why.

You know what I would love to see in this next update. This is speculation on a future possibility, but it probably won’t happen. It turns out to be Faolain who is actually the real person behind the toxic alliance. Why did she do it? Out of envy. Since Scarlet was upstaging her efforts with the Nightmare Court; just after her disappearance in TA story mode. She would explain that the entire tower was to set the stage for a massive deception. So she could have a biological/chemical army of terror to call her own. It would also serve as a rival faction to Scarlet mechanical monstrosities. Faolain would give us hints about what Scarlet’s true motivations are. Also tell us why she despises Scarlet because of their past “disagreements.” Faolain would show us why she was using nightmarish hallucination. So she would not only trick the Krait into forming this new alliance (something that was thought to be impposible), but in case there was fallout with the her plans then Scarlet would take the blame.

It will have a very causality feel to it. Because of Scarlet theatricals misgivings she is making enemies out of those who have dealt with her before. Her influence has indirectly caused other problems in the world to which she has not direct control over. It would also explain the relationships she has squandered in the past and therefore creating future debacles not just for us but for Scarlet. It would make her to be charterer that can be supposedly all powerful but flawed.

Walhalla.5473:

narrock.6890:

Avatar Rage.4369:

mercury ranique.2170:

Personally only a fraction of the people dislike Scarlet. but those are, as always the people who speak out on the forums. I absolutly love the character and think she is truly a job well done.

So definitely not signed.

I must day I agree with you. I really like her. Lore is not unwritten here just expanded and that has always been something that has made Guild Wars so great.

So yeah definitely not signed

stepping all over established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and, even the Asura starting quest lore to shove scarlet in is not “expanding lore” its killing it and making scarlet the sole cause all the worlds woe for what? oh right a “pay off” that will tie it all together…No i rather she was the retconed one out not the lore that was there before her.

Well she didn’t step over the established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and especially not the Asura starting quest Lore. ( playing the first story missions would show that only the golem was sabotaged, and the Inquest tempered with the hardware itself and not the design )

SHE DID ruin flame legion simple really shes female flame legion hate females with a passion and see them as servants in their world why would any fallow her? oh right the would not ever and no it was not manipulation.. its a magical world called “we cant tie this in well WHO CARES throw it in anyway those lore fans can rot for all we care”

second in dredge another xenophobic race that make less sense fallowing her by ALLOT more one xenophobes that one thing but the big one is them serving her they would never put themselves on that spot after what happened with the dwarf why fallow a useless plant who is quite clearly not here to help.

And then there is the krait a race of crazy guys who see all other races as beneath them see nothing as any real threat and are devout followers of a religious text that has only subtle changes made by its priest. So if scarlet tampered with it she would be killed even if it was subtle, killed and if she had a Krait obelisks shard to bribe them KILLED no matter how strong her armies were to back up the bribe because Krait, as i said see nothing a threat.

To say she didn’t ruin the lore is just a flat out lie.

I remember when people were whining that 5 dragons will be annoying to fight if they were only the main villain.

I’m pretty sure that’s why the created Scarlet, to create a villain that isn’t a dragon and that probably won’t be tied to any, until at least the very end. Too bad, that like most part of the recent lore, she was probably written in at the last minute.

Walhalla.5473:

narrock.6890:

Avatar Rage.4369:

Lore is not unwritten here just expanded and that has always been something that has made Guild Wars so great.

stepping all over established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and, even the Asura starting quest lore to shove scarlet in is not “expanding lore” its killing it and making scarlet the sole cause all the worlds woe for what? oh right a “pay off” that will tie it all together…No i rather she was the retconed one out not the lore that was there before her.

Well she didn’t step over the established Krait, Dredge, Flame Legion and especially not the Asura starting quest Lore. (playing the first story missions would show that only the golem was sabotaged, and the Inquest tempered with the hardware itself and not the design)

The Flame Legion, dredge, and Nightmare Court working with Scarlet are relatively reasonable – but the Molten Alliance is hard to swallow though not impossible, and the krait are even harder to swallow (Toxic Alliance only depending on how she got their cooperation) but again not impossible.

The asura starting story that was meant was the fact that Scarlet got shoehorned into being part of Teyo’s krewe that stole blueprints from the Rata Sum archives – leading to the Weather Machine storyline (not the Floating Grizwhirl or the haywire golems). She didn’t “step on it” but she was shoehorned in when it was unnecessary. That’s how most of her history is – just unnecessary stuff to make her seem even more “awesome” and capable of doing anything.

Honestly, all they needed was that she joined up with the Inquest. Didn’t need that charr sniper training, or working with the most famous modern norn blacksmith and even the hylek training is presented in the story as “she didn’t need it but she did it anyways” and only holds a sway in the story if that training is what led to the Toxic Alliance’s toxins.

People claim that the issue is that Scarlet “breaks the lore” but really that’s not the case. Scarlet doesn’t break the lore – she just bends it unreasonably with no explanation for why it gets bent, just that it is. And that makes people think it’s broken. If Anet went and explained how she got the oppressor-hating dredge who also hate charr on a whole in of themselves to work with the oppressive charr Flame Legion, and if Anet went and explained how she got the xenophobic “all races are inferior to us” to work for her and alongside the Nightmare Court, then maybe people would dislike her less. All we got of the Molten Alliance is “we needed fire magic! Scarlet provided it in the form of Flame Legion!” and “we needed tech! Scarlet provided it in the form of dredge!” which doesn’t really answer why dredge went to Flame Legion rather than trying to siphon into the power of Destroyers again.

I have my own theories on why the Molten Alliance, Aetherblades/Inquest, and Toxic Alliance formed. Which I’ve posted here since I feel it’d be better in a new thread than an old Scarlet-hate thread.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m still wondering what the purpose of all of this is. But I’m bracing myself for disappointment. What have all these alliances been leading up to? Was it really worth all the trouble for Scarlet?

I’m holding to my original theory in that she needed the advancement of magitech. I’ve gone into more details to said theory in the thread I linked above, but in summary:

Most of the main parts of her actions are about obtaining advanced weaponry/technology and new sources of power. Even hijacking the Watchknights, an act done on a whim, go to this.

Her goal as we know is to effectively destroy the Dream and Nightmare – to remove the predetermination (aka Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts) of her race. Why she needs this technology though… I don’t quite get how the two dots connect, but I theorize that she’s making a hallucinogen bomb that’ll disconnect the sylvari from the Dream of Dreams (and thus the Nightmare and Wyld/Dark Hunts).

Sindex.9520:

We get hints she is stealing stuff for a massive plan (very subtle), and she has corrupted political officials.

While she has attempted to get Mai Trin into the Captain’s Council, I don’t think this is directly relevant to her plot, as it is the only case of political affairs she has taken other than attempting to assassinate/kidnap the Queen.

I suspect getting Mai Trin onto the council was her way of getting the Aetherblades’ cooperation. But they messed up and was already in too deep to pull out of Scarlet’s insanity.

Sindex.9520:

Or how about that emulated Steam Creature portal device that she has in Gendarran Fields. Does that means she can explore parallel universes (through the mists), and that’s why she knows how certain events will transpire?

Technically speaking, we don’t really know how the whole alternate universes work in GW, so we cannot say she can leave this world for the one the Steam creatures go to – there could be various reasons preventing her. All dependent on the rule of thumb that the GWverse follows with these things. But it’d be nice to see it explored.

narrock.6890:

SHE DID ruin flame legion simple really shes female flame legion hate females with a passion and see them as servants in their world why would any fallow her? oh right the would not ever and no it was not manipulation.. its a magical world called “we cant tie this in well WHO CARES throw it in anyway those lore fans can rot for all we care”

second in dredge another xenophobic race that make less sense fallowing her by ALLOT more one xenophobes that one thing but the big one is them serving her they would never put themselves on that spot after what happened with the dwarf why fallow a useless plant who is quite clearly not here to help.

And then there is the krait a race of crazy guys who see all other races as beneath them see nothing as any real threat and are devout followers of a religious text that has only subtle changes made by its priest. So if scarlet tampered with it she would be killed even if it was subtle, killed and if she had a Krait obelisks shard to bribe them KILLED no matter how strong her armies were to back up the bribe because Krait, as i said see nothing a threat.

Flame Legion
Actually, they hate female charr, and if you had one and talked to the Flame Legion Prisoner at the end of Flame and Frost, you’d have had the prisoner insult you multiple times and refuse to give you any details. But the prisoner will easily explain himself to female norn/human/sylvari/asura the same way he would to male norn/human/sylvari/asura.

Out of all those who worked for Scarlet, the Flame Legion actually make the most sense.

Dredge
Go play Sorrow’s Embrace story mode. The dredge are not fully xenohpbic. Under Shukov’s rule, they have learned to accept the asura as allies and intended to – and I quote Shukov – “humble the sylvari.”

Shukov’s reign was corrupt and wasn’t finished with Sorrow’s Embrace explorable (see Frostgorge Sound hearts). They were willing to work with and partially under other races (namely the Inquest) in order to obtain more power.

Krait
She couldn’t tamper with the krait religious texts, but she could convince the Oratuss to do so. The Oratuss are fanatic as well, but they are corrupt first and foremost. It wouldn’t be surprising to see them alter the text to say “And Scarlet Briar is a herald of the Prophets’ return!” Besides, there is no physical text – it’s all memorized as the krait have no written language. So what the Oratuss say is what the “religious text” says. So if she manages to convince the Oratuss, she has the entire krait race working for her, as non-Oratuss krait are fully about serving the religious texts, and as I said: what the Oratuss say the religious texts say, is what the religious texts say. Control the Oratuss, control all krait.

She didn’t ruin the lore YET. It’s just unexplained and that makes it hard to believe. Depending on how it is explained can make or break the lore though.

Konig I do appreciate your efforts. But from what I gathered from Anet, they realize that Scarlet is indeed a lore breaking villain. I think at this point, Anet just want to get rid of Scarlet asap to prevent further damage.

Chris Whiteside (paraphrasing): Desperate all the player’s objections, we have to finish the Scarlet Saga because everything for her is already done, both the story and the gameplays.

Anet so far only said “There is a story with Scarlet.” They never said “Scarlet is not what you guys think at all. It will all make sense at the end.” So I think most of our accusation against the Lore Slayer is valid.

Don’t get me wrong. If Anet managed to turn her story around I would be more than happy. But I am willing to pretend she never happened if required.

Scarlet doesn’t ruin lore – just bends it to near the breaking point. But she is very choppy storytelling with no or improper exposition and progression scaling of the plot. The time for that exposition has come and gone so there’s no real redeeming it – trying to do so would be like ME3’s extended cut DLC. It “fixes” the issues but the damage has been done nonetheless.

Scarlet’s “arc” has always been intended to come to a plan and a few months back now there was an interview between TowerTalk and Scott/Angel in which Scott said that Scarlet is a “filler arc” to give players time between Elder Dragon plots that’ll happen “every couple years” (paraphrased). In other words, it was probably always intended for Scarlet to take the whole of 2013 and some of 2014. So I doubt that ArenaNet “just want[s] to get rid of Scarlet asap.”

I think Konig’s just okay with Scarlet’s existence because he’s making money off her :P

You mean because I have yet to receive the artificial pixel cash from drax and Eluviete? Because pixel money means a lot to me in a game I’ve lost interest in playing beyond seeing the story develop (something that took four years to occur in GW1, mind you I began playing after Factions’ release so there’s that).

I’m just being honest here. It’s very easy to get caught up in the hate for Scarlet and yeah, there’s a kitten ton of mistakes about her. I’m far from “okay” with her. I’m just trying to play the devil’s advocate which in this case is explaining how Scarlet isn’t as bad as everyone claims. I’m not saying she’s good to the lore – just that people are exaggerating her problems.

I’m in agreement. Scarlet isn’t so much a Slayer of Lore, but she’s just not written very well. Kind of like the average villain of a Captain Planet episode (“We’re polluting because, bahahaha, we’re evil and crazy!”).

A lot of her alliances are a bit of a stretch, and seem very unlikely given the nature of these races. Plus on top of that, she never sticks with one alliance, and has a new one every few weeks, which is bizarre. And then we’re also not given any real motives. I certainly don’t think we’ll see any motives that the player could find even remotely understandable (the core aspect of a well written villain).

I can imagine a plot where Scarlet has discovered that Sylvari are actually slaves to the pale tree, and it turns out Faolain was actually right in trying to set them free, or something along those lines. Or maybe Caithe really hides a dark secret that would make her more of a villain than anyone. All of these are edgy plots, which I doubt we are going to see. I think they are going to play it safe, and just have Scarlet create some sort of monster, which we then kill, end of story. Or maybe she tries to become a god. Again, boring. At least in my own character’s background, Malafide tried to stop someone else from becoming a god, and was cursed with immortality in the process. A sort of tragic fall from grace; a good person whose heart is turned black for good understandable reasons, while the villain she wants revenge on, learns from his mistake, and tries to better his life. But I don’t think we should expect anything that blurs the lines of good and evil like that in the Living Story. So far the writing team has really underwhelmed me with the quality of their writing.

But that doesn’t mean it’s all bad. There are some genuinely compelling characters in the Living Story, like Rox, Kasmeer, Marjory, Braham. Even Ellen Kiel to some extend. They are clearly trying, but I hope they take some risks. Scarlet feels too safe, and its stretching the lore just for the sake of an unlikely plot. But it’s easy to come down on the writing team and not provide any improvements. Lets try and provide ways for them to better their writing.

I think what I would like to see is for them to not bend lore to their advantage, like with the Krait. Getting the Krait to help Scarlet, when they are so xenophobic, is indeed a writing challenge. They obviously wouldn’t quickly ally themselves with anyone at all. So personally I would find it far more likely if Scarlet provoked them into helping her, without them knowing it. And maybe they would turn on her, as soon as they figured out they’d been played.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m in agreement. Scarlet isn’t so much a Slayer of Lore, but she’s just not written very well. Kind of like the average villain of a Captain Planet episode (“We’re polluting because, bahahaha, we’re evil and crazy!”).

I wouldn’t say it was her writing that was the problem. We would need to actually need to know her possible motives and methods, for it to be more of the writing. All we are getting from her, at the moment, are the results of her actions and a brief encounter of her character. After we see all this, all we can really do is scratch our head, and we think,“How in the hell is she doing all this, and why?”.

I would say its more of the handling of her entire character in general. While we in the forums discuss everything to death, and we go over every possible detail and clue for the future possibilities, she seemed, for most of the playerbase, to come out of nowhere. They could have spread out a couple more clues to her existence in FF and DB.

How they presented her backstory didn’t help matters much either. Stuck-up, ill-tempered, intelligent loner type of childhood? That’s fine. It’s a classic villain backstory. Them saying she took an Eat, Pray, Love tour of the world to learn from everyone? Not so much. They could have removed all that text and replaced it with, “After learning all she could in the Grove, Ceara left to travel and learn from other sources, before coming to study at the Colleges of Rata Sum.” It’s short, sweet, simple, and deliciously vague on details.

They could have even turn it into a surprise easter egg hunt later on. Every LS dealing with her in someway, they could have put in extra dialogue, dealing with her backstory, to the npcs she studied under. It could have been a nice tie into what she is doing at that time. Her first appearance? Random Inquest member in Rata Sum. Invasion events? Norn and Charr teachers. It could have also tied into the events of FF. Toxic Alliance? Sylvari teachers at the Grove, and her lonesome Hylek mentor.

All in the handling. ; ;

I just had a interesting thought. What if Scarlet didn’t give them obelisk shards as a gift, but as a threat. In my mind, perhaps Scarlet came down to them and said, “Hey you like these Obelisks right? Well here’s one, if you don’t want me to destroy every one of them you’ll do what I say!” and then flew off in an airship where they couldn’t reach her…

That actually gave me an interesting idea. What if the Krait’s deities are real, and they are actually Gods with good intentions? What if the Krait really are their chosen people, and are paramount in the battle against the Elder Dragons? That would be an interesting 180 twist.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That actually gave me an interesting idea. What if the Krait’s deities are real, and they are actually Gods with good intentions? What if the Krait really are their chosen people, and are paramount in the battle against the Elder Dragons? That would be an interesting 180 twist.

The good twist would be their gods wants to kill the Elder Dragons and then enslave everyone else. So it ends up being a 3 way war. ^^

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That actually gave me an interesting idea. What if the Krait’s deities are real, and they are actually Gods with good intentions? What if the Krait really are their chosen people, and are paramount in the battle against the Elder Dragons? That would be an interesting 180 twist.

Well, as we go through, most of the “gods” that we’re introduced to have some real effect on the game’s world. We’re still not certain about the existence of Koda or Melaggan, but the Spirits of the Wild, Human Gods, Hylek Sun, and other such deities are seen to some extent in the world. Even, be it, just a simple meta in Caledon Forest. So having the krait gods be real, wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.

My opinion is that GW2 tries to show the current game world through events and dungeons, rather than showing historical lore. The current events will be the lore of the future. I’ve got no problem with that. However if the Scarlet storyline is going to become the lore of the future then it’s not going to make much sense, given what we’ve seen so far.

I have a feeling Scarlets arc will be ending in the next few months, but I feel like what she’s done will cause some aftermath, I still am upset the kittening Sinister Triad wasn’t utilized more instead of making all of these other alliances…. I mean they’re already there!! And my god would the be more interesting….

Granted I do like Scarlet ( love her archetype so I’m biased), and I like how they’re pushing the lore to the limits but it’s starting to get repetitive which is a little annoying…. Better not be another alliance….

CHIPS.6018:

Konig I do appreciate your efforts. But from what I gathered from Anet, they realize that Scarlet is indeed a lore breaking villain. I think at this point, Anet just want to get rid of Scarlet asap to prevent further damage.

I don’t think that’s quite what they said. Chris acknowledged that there were serious flaws with how they introduced and handled Scarlet, but their line is still that it does all still make sense from their perspective.

To give them the benefit of the doubt, they may be completely right there. Once everything is laid out on the table, it may be that everything will make sense – it’s just that, months into the story, we haven’t been given enough pieces of the puzzle to identify that there is an overall picture and not just the developers throwing together whatever seems like a good idea at the time with Scarlet as an increasingly tenuous linking factor.

Clearly, there are major flaws with how Scarlet has been portrayed and developed, particularly with her Sue-esque background, but time will tell (and we have got a commitment that Scarlet’s story does have a planned endpoint rather than being the focus of the LS indefinitely) whether the flaw is because their overall plan was bad, or whether it was because they were too stingy with giving us glimpses of what that overall plan was for us to be able to distinguish that there was one.

Yes, I think regardless of the quality of the writing itself, the Living Story team may have underestimated the amount of information that players like to learn over the course of these events. A lot of players want more than just the event itself, they want some information on the plot so they can speculate.

It’s like an episode of Castle, where clues are dropped throughout the episode, and the viewers are trying to second guess the plot. Then there are a few twists and turns along the way. But so far Scarlet’s story has been pretty much a straight line, with no new information at any point. And I think a lot of players are dreading that they’ll drop the pay off on them suddenly and without warning, leaving no further room for speculation.

Then add the expected disappointed for her motivations, and you’ve got a colossal story telling failure. The sad thing is, from a gameplay perspective is aint all that bad. Sure, the achievement grind is obnoxious, but the overall new content has been fairly enjoyable. It’s a shame that they haven’t figured out how to deliver a good story. I wish there was a way for me as a player, to help them out with that. But I’m a little bit afraid that my tiny voice, or those of the lore community as a whole, get lost in the crowd of this forum.

What ruined Scarlet for me personally was the fact that when she was first released, she was much too heroic. She was presented as a genius even compared to Asura and that right there broke the lore for me. Because until that point, Sylvari were already the most diplomatic (only they ‘knew’ that the races should work together), the most magical (cleansing Orr), the most heroic (the only race that starts out by saying their purpose is to save the world) and having one of the 3 best smiths in the world (joining the pact). They have an expert on Orr that knows more than any human scholar. And added to that, they were immune to corruption and could foretell the future.

And then they had to make a Sylvari that was smarter than all Asura. At that point, Sylvari literally were the best at everything.

Sylvari would have been so much better if they were more like Seiran…you know, in the sense that they have a flaw (and only at the very end of her life did she understand what friendship was). Regardless, I deleted my Sylvari long before Scarlet came around…

ThiBash.5634:

What ruined Scarlet for me personally was the fact that when she was first released, she was much too heroic. She was presented as a genius even compared to Asura and that right there broke the lore for me. Because until that point, Sylvari were already the most diplomatic (only they ‘knew’ that the races should work together), the most magical (cleansing Orr), the most heroic (the only race that starts out by saying their purpose is to save the world) and having one of the 3 best smiths in the world (joining the pact). They have an expert on Orr that knows more than any human scholar. And added to that, they were immune to corruption and could foretell the future.

And then they had to make a Sylvari that was smarter than all Asura. At that point, Sylvari literally were the best at everything.

Sylvari would have been so much better if they were more like Seiran…you know, in the sense that they have a flaw (and only at the very end of her life did she understand what friendship was). Regardless, I deleted my Sylvari long before Scarlet came around…

I would prefer if you didn’t confuse scarlet hate with Sylvari hate. It’s been said already that she isn’t smarter than all asura, just that she got a crash course in all the colleges. The only one that she may have gotten any major experience in would have been synergetics.

Narcemus.1348:

I would prefer if you didn’t confuse scarlet hate with Sylvari hate. It’s been said already that she isn’t smarter than all asura, just that she got a crash course in all the colleges. The only one that she may have gotten any major experience in would have been synergetics.

It’s not confusing with, it’s an extension of. I’m well aware that the lore was ‘fixed’ but to me, the damage was done at that point. And it was a half-baked fix, because the ingame Scarlet still acts like nothing touches or concerns her. Nothing the players or any of the NPCs do, seems in any way relavant to her. No defeat is a true setback, not even a minor one. She mocks us as if we didn’t do anything at all. So in many ways, she’s still the over-the-top Sylvari that she was at the start.

You may not like me ‘confusing’ things but in reality, Scarlet’s just one of many on a long list of overpowered, overheroic Sylvari that can always to a tad more than would make for a believable and fun character.

Her story would have been more believable on an Asura. Just like how a Charr as top 3 blacksmith in the personal story would have been much more believable than Sylvari. They can have their strengths, but they shouldn’t be outclassing the elder races in everything.

ThiBash.5634:

Narcemus.1348:

I would prefer if you didn’t confuse scarlet hate with Sylvari hate. It’s been said already that she isn’t smarter than all asura, just that she got a crash course in all the colleges. The only one that she may have gotten any major experience in would have been synergetics.

It’s not confusing with, it’s an extension of. I’m well aware that the lore was ‘fixed’ but to me, the damage was done at that point. And it was a half-baked fix, because the ingame Scarlet still acts like nothing touches or concerns her. Nothing the players or any of the NPCs do, seems in any way relavant to her. No defeat is a true setback, not even a minor one. She mocks us as if we didn’t do anything at all. So in many ways, she’s still the over-the-top Sylvari that she was at the start.

You may not like me ‘confusing’ things but in reality, Scarlet’s just one of many on a long list of overpowered, overheroic Sylvari that can always to a tad more than would make for a believable and fun character.

Her story would have been more believable on an Asura. Just like how a Charr as top 3 blacksmith in the personal story would have been much more believable than Sylvari. They can have their strengths, but they shouldn’t be outclassing the elder races in everything.

And it is indeed funny, because I always imagined that Sylvari is the most numerous race of the 5. The other races made up the number difference by being better individually.

Asura =intelligence and theoretical science
Human = magic and history
Char = crafting and practical science
Norn = raw strength and bravery
Sylvari = huge population and unity with nature

When Anet makes new characters in the future, they should first think about which races would make the most sense for that character.

I don’t think Arena Net believes they have quite conveyed the natural existence of the Sylvari in game as of yet. Until we get the next Elder Dragon chapter then it’s probably not going to be the last Sylvari main character we get. I doubt the next living story is going to the amazing adventures of Captain Ellen Kiel and her merry crew.

I just had a flash of thought. What if Scarlet was done in by the Skritt? I was thinking it would be hilarious because of the pure irony of someone of her stature being done in by the Skritt.

CHIPS.6018:

Asura =intelligence and theoretical science
Human = magic and history
Char = crafting and practical science
Norn = raw strength and bravery
Sylvari = huge population and unity with nature

When Anet makes new characters in the future, they should first think about which races would make the most sense for that character.

So, basically, you think when Anet decides to make new characters, they should decide which race they are by seeing which racial stereotypes they fit into? That’s a horrible idea when trying to make a compelling story. Not to mention, all the characters would all start to blend together after awhile.

One of the few pros for Scarlet, is that she isn’t the stereotypical nature loving Sylvari.

Erukk.1408:

So, basically, you think when Anet decides to make new characters, they should decide which race they are by seeing which racial stereotypes they fit into? That’s a horrible idea when trying to make a compelling story. Not to mention, all the characters would all start to blend together after awhile.

No, but they should implement it in a believable way. A character can also be very smart without surpassing all Asura by a large margin. Their story ‘fix’ was actually a bit better, making her smart and curious rather than ‘follows all colleges (which no Asura ever did) and also faster than all other Asura’. The latter is just absurd, the first I have no problem with. Her character would have worked just as well if she was ‘just as smart’ as the Asura, or ‘nearly as smart as’. She doesn’t need to be ‘smarter than all Asura’, let alone ‘waaaay smarter than all of them combined’. And if she absolutely has to be smarter than all of them combined, then at least make that happen after the experience she has had, not before. That keeps the story acceptable and believable.

One of the few pros for Scarlet, is that she isn’t the stereotypical nature loving Sylvari.

Like you said, one of the few…

It probably has to do with the Zhaitan fight, and how it was rushed (developers have admitted it before). Which left the entire game feeling kind of anticlimactic. Not only have been trying to improve their game mechanics (like Tequatl the Sunless) but also their story telling. Until they get everything right where they want it, then maybe afterwards Arena Net will return to weaving a narrative about the remaining Elder Dragons. My guess would be around July of next year is likely the time they will get get back on track. However that is only speculation. I also hope they fix the Zhaitan encounter, before they move onto the next Elder Dragon. Until then Scarlet was their intentional plot filler. Though her significance to the lore is what is being questioned, and hopefully will be answered once her narrative concludes.

Sindex.9520:

It probably has to do with the Zhaitan fight, and how it was rushed (developers have admitted it before). Which left the entire game feeling kind of anticlimactic. Not only have been trying to improve their game mechanics (like Tequatl the Sunless) but also their story telling. Until they get everything right where they want it, then Arena Net will probably return to weaving a narrative about the remaining elder dragons. My guess is probably around July of next year they will get back on track. However that is only speculation. I also hope they fix the Zhaitan encounter, before they move onto the next elder dragon. Until then Scarlet was their intentional plot filler. Though her significance to the lore is what is being questioned, and hopefully will be answered once her narrative concludes.

They actually said a while ago that they want to fix the Zhaitan fight (IE make it not super anti climactic) before they continue the elder dragon story because they don’t want another Zhaitan to occur (IE all this build up and then nothing).

To be honest i’d rather endure another year of scarlet then have them rush into the ED story too soon and end up with another Zhaitan fight…

I still wonder how the Zhaitan encounter ended up like that. Even if it was rushed its so bad you think they would have put it higher up on the list of things to fix before launch.

The current LS arc with Scarlet still has time to redeem itself, it all depends on the execution of the final one or two LS patches. The whole gripe about the krait being xenophobic/racist puts a plot hole in the LS is kind of silly. For one the story isnt even finished and two, why can’t they change? Someone gives you a bunch of super sacred objects of your culture you might turn from xenophobic to grateful. Her plot might also have attracted them work with the NC.

@Dromar there’s actually a PoI in Arah that we can not physically get to called The Dragons Lair (can be seen in game), so my bet is they literally ran outta time and rushed the Zhaitan fight into being only 2 phases instead of something much larger, I mean even the cutscenes make it seem like more is supposed to happen.

Erukk.1408:

CHIPS.6018:

Asura =intelligence and theoretical science
Human = magic and history
Char = crafting and practical science
Norn = raw strength and bravery
Sylvari = huge population and unity with nature

When Anet makes new characters in the future, they should first think about which races would make the most sense for that character.

So, basically, you think when Anet decides to make new characters, they should decide which race they are by seeing which racial stereotypes they fit into? That’s a horrible idea when trying to make a compelling story. Not to mention, all the characters would all start to blend together after awhile.

One of the few pros for Scarlet, is that she isn’t the stereotypical nature loving Sylvari.

By that arguement, would you believe it if a Skritt named Tony is the smartest Skritt ever. In fact he is so smart he attended all 3 Asuran collages and graduated from all of them. He made a weapons called the “Sand Gun”, which shoots out one grain of sand at supersonic speeds. He went into the ocean, and with just one single shot from his Sand Gun he killed the Deep Sea Dragon (without the rest of Kryta even knowing that dragon’s name. Who cares that dragon is dead!).

Now everyone praise Tony like a god. The other elder dragons was so afraid of him that they all died to heart attacks without Tony doing anything else. And the world live happily ever after. No explanation is needed.

>_>

If Anet wants to get away from the stereotypes, they would need VERY well written and explanation to support the story. Stereotypes in stories works because the audience are much more willing to accept them.

For example, a sea pirate+ransom story in Somalia ocean is more believable than a sea pirate+ransom story in US ocean. Sure it can be done. But the story writer must put in more efforts to make the story work. The pirates in Somalia maybe untrained, unplanned and uneducated. The pirates in US better be trained, planned and educated.

Asura are smart. But as a child they still need to attend elementary and high school before entering one of the collages.

Scarlet never attended the Asuran elementary and high schools. Her “education” in the Pale Tree is mostly Ventari’s teachings. Sure perhaps the Pale Tree would teach her kids whatever science knowledge she knows. But there is no way they would be as science focused as the Asura.

And then Scarlet walks right into the 3 Asuran collages and get accepted into all 3. No explanation was ever given.

When the story writer decides to get away from the stereotype, and didn’t give any explanations, the story falls apart.

Not to mention that we’ve been told over and over and over again that she’s a silver-tounged individual who is able to coerce anyone into anything, but thus far her talk has been far from what you would expect from someone like that. I mean I would believe that she could do what she does with the alliances a little better if her dialogue seemed to match what we’re told about her.

Narcemus.1348:

Not to mention that we’ve been told over and over and over again that she’s a silver-tounged individual who is able to coerce anyone into anything, but thus far her talk has been far from what you would expect from someone like that. I mean I would believe that she could do what she does with the alliances a little better if her dialogue seemed to match what we’re told about her.

This is what I want to see. Her coaxing one of the these alliances into existence. I want to catch her in the act of doing it. Because right now she seems like a demented lunatic when she addresses her adversaries. The best way I could imagine her doing it is compared to Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (Garry Oldman) charterer from the Fifth Element offering a package deal of some sort.

Well, we have a new cinematic now, at the start of the Tower of Nightmares boss battle. And it explains exactly as much about her motivations as we all feared: NOTHING!

Actually now that I think about it before going to sleep : she has a motivation. She’s a drama w**re. She wants fame, she wants people to talk about her, she wants to wreak havoc.
That’s it.

Sindex.9520:

Narcemus.1348:

Not to mention that we’ve been told over and over and over again that she’s a silver-tounged individual who is able to coerce anyone into anything, but thus far her talk has been far from what you would expect from someone like that. I mean I would believe that she could do what she does with the alliances a little better if her dialogue seemed to match what we’re told about her.

This is what I want to see. Her coaxing one of the these alliances into existence. I want to catch her in the act of doing it. Because right now she seems like a demented lunatic when she addresses her adversaries. The best way I could imagine her doing it is compared to Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (Garry Oldman) charterer from the Fifth Element offering a package deal of some sort.

I don’t think she does it directly. She may have agents who convey her messages for her. This is why we don’t see her really interact with these alliances even after they’ve formed.

I recently watched Avengers again… hey now she had her parade, now she has her tower.

Great, i had a Loki flashback, haha.

No, to be honest. Something has to happen. We need answers, we need motivation, we need anything.

i liked how we fight our “loss” in the new content, but it would actually fit better somwhere else and just feels like a gimick here. i thought they don`t want to mix LS and PS, even though i appreaciate it (if there wasn`t a point in the PS somwhere where i was tought to accept death, well still a traumatic experience)

What i find weird. No spies fromt the orders, no notes scattered around, no Asura to hack her “computers”… She is a ghost. She leaves no traces and that is annoying.
Either she is that good groan or our heroes are just stupid doublegroan.

I want a profiler on that case, now. Get the best detectives and magic mumbo jumbo people together to find her.
It cannot be that she always is right beneath our nose and we can`t see her.

What about Scenthounds, infiltation, stackeouts, detectivework. So many possibilities…

CHIPS.6018:

Asura are smart. But as a child they still need to attend elementary and high school before entering one of the collages.

Scarlet never attended the Asuran elementary and high schools. Her “education” in the Pale Tree is mostly Ventari’s teachings. Sure perhaps the Pale Tree would teach her kids whatever science knowledge she knows. But there is no way they would be as science focused as the Asura.

And then Scarlet walks right into the 3 Asuran collages and get accepted into all 3. No explanation was ever given.

When the story writer decides to get away from the stereotype, and didn’t give any explanations, the story falls apart.

Did you read her short story? At all? Because if you had, it would have answered almost all of these questions.

First, she was born naturally intelligent. She could look at something, and she understood how it worked and how it effected the things around it. She built on this over the years by studying engineering at the Grove, and most more further later on in Rata Sum.

“Ceara opened her eyes to a vibrant world of greens and golds and earthy browns. Sunlight streamed down through the canopy, nourishing the great trees and warming the ground level vegetation. All around, creatures of every shape and size called to one another, exploring, chasing, being chased, always in motion.

Ceara blinked, pleasantly overwhelmed by it all. The world was a fascinatingly complex system of smaller, interlocking systems that affected one another in an ever-changing dance. It was beyond fascinating: it was life itself, and now she was a part of it."

Second, she didn’t just walk into Rata Sum and instantly get accepted to all three colleges. They didn’t want to accept her at all at first, because she was non-Asuran, and they thought she in no way would understand any of the coursework.

“She found that convincing the three great colleges to let her in was the hardest part. Apart from their inherent bias against non-asura, they did not relish a lowly sylvari with delusions of academic excellence “diluting” or “contaminating” their student body’s collective brain power. When Ceara constructed a fully functional golemite on the fly from a small power crystal, a handful of raw ore, and a few select spells, the Arcane Council begrudgingly granted her provisional status as Dynamics student.

She completed the Dynamics coursework in under a year as the highest-ranked student in her class. Chagrined, the councilors give her the same opportunity in Statics. When she achieved similar results in a similar time frame, they were intrigued enough to see if she could do the same with Synergetics.

Synergetics took quite a bit longer, however, as Ceara finally found a field of study that was a boundless as her interest. She immersed herself in Synergetics’ miasmic mix of mystical energy patterns and arcane probabilities; in its focus on chaos theory and mapping unpredictable connections; in the pursuit of hidden knowledge and secret mechanisms derived in equal parts from the contemplation of the ephemeral and the application of the practical."

Third, she didn’t do the entire coursework of each college. She only got a degree in advanced engineering at each one. Though, not in the short story (since it was in-game), this is backed up by Emissary Vorpp in the Closing Ceremony instance, during Clockwork Chaos.

“Emissary Vorpp: Of course. I know of this Scarlet. She earned advanced engineering degrees at each of Rata Sum’s colleges in record time.
Emissary Vorpp: "Engineering prodigy,“ they said. “Intuitive grasp of phenomenological design and transcendent systems.“ Pfah, I say. Pfah!

All the information regarding her superior intellect have been there for months, so you can’t say they “didn’t give any explanations”. All you had to do was look for it.

Sadly, one could find more backstory and lore regarding Tyria/Guild Wars 2 in the “Lore” section of this forum then in the actual game. Quite sad.

Even worse is that I still have some form of hope to check the forums, but still not enough to log into the game anymore.

Has anyone else noticed how Bobby Stein never seems to respond to negative feedback about Scarlet? He usually carefully steps around it in his responses – or he just ignores it altogether.

Dott.5672:

Has anyone else noticed how Bobby Stein never seems to respond to negative feedback about Scarlet? He usually carefully steps around it in his responses – or he just ignores it altogether.

I don’t think that’s fair. What do we really expect him to say? As a writer you work hard to make the story as fun as you possibly can. And it’s harsh to receive a lot of negative feedback. I’ve had colleagues in a similar situation, and best thing you can do is not take it too personal, and try to learn from it.

The devs have already acknowledged that they are aware that many players find the story a bit lacking. What more can they say? I don’t think it’s being ignored.