Guild Wars 2

Firstly, let me say that I really enjoyed the game play aspect of this release. I enjoy going though part of the tower, then enter a mini dungeon, and then keep exploring the tower. This mix of world event and dungeons is very well done.

Now, let’s talk about the lore, and how this release broke the lore once again.

Scarlet, an mechanical engineer, has just added bio-weapon, genetic modification, Resident Evil to her resume. So she is now a biologist. Her Mary Sue-ness, unfortunately, continues.

We have to keep in mind that Scarlet was an engineer. She is a mechanic that works with technology. The part about her being the best engineer ever lived wasn’t believable, but let’s say the readers accepts this. This explained how she created the Molten Alliance and Aetherblade technologies.

Yesterday the Nightmares Within was released. And the final boss wasn’t some kind of Krait/technology mix. The boss was a Krait/Nightmare Tree hybrid. This is a bio-weapon, a product of genetic engineering.

Scarlet is an mechanical engineer. She shouldn’t know anything about biology. So the lore is once again broken. I think it is fair to say that engineering has absolutely nothing to do with biology.

A necromancer or a ranger, who worked with biology and organisms, would be a better fit to be the ones who made that hybrid.

Wait, you mean people can’t learn more than one skill? O.o
I’ll agree, the Toxic Hybrid is different from her other works, such as the Molten bosses and the Clockheart, which are more cyborg like. But, a possible explanation is that she has expanded her abilities to create biological weapons. She’s an intelligent Sylvari, having studied with multiple people of renown, so I don’t see it hard to believe that she learned a little more. We haven’t seen her for a while (in person), so that could be the reason for her absense

Mystic Starfish.2586:

Wait, you mean people can’t learn more than one skill? O.o
I’ll agree, the Toxic Hybrid is different from her other works, such as the Molten bosses and the Clockheart, which are more cyborg like. But, a possible explanation is that she has expanded her abilities to create biological weapons. She’s an intelligent Sylvari, having studied with multiple people of renown, so I don’t see it hard to believe that she learned a little more. We haven’t seen her for a while (in person), so that could be the reason for her absense

Sure she “can” learn new skills. Anyone can learn new skills. But the problem is she already knows too much.

You have to keep in mind that she is already the best engineer ever lived, by a huge margin.

Now she has also become the best biologist ever lived. She has just produced the first fully functional bio-organic-weapon (BOW) that the world has ever seen. The bio-weapon is also fully intelligent, instead of the usual rampaging, out of control first generation BOWs that we see in other stories. Scarlet has just put the Umbrella Corporation to shame. Think about that.

She is becoming more and more Mary Sue. And this doesn’t sit well with me and many other players.

I’m starting to believe that the Toxin in Tower was first meant to be Mustard Gas, invented by Scarlet during World War 1, but eve she considered it a bit OP. Also….. Mustard Alliance….

Don’t all sylvari have limited control over plant life inherently? Combined with her engineering ability with that plant control mastered to a greater degree? Just speculation.

I agree that this just makes Scarlet even more overpowered, but this isn’t really news.

We already knew that she was mentored by the greatest Hylek alchemist ever. Alchemy isn’t exactly biology but it’s pretty close. At this point nothing phases me. It could turn out that she has the power of intergalactic travel and I wouldn’t say anything anymore.

To be honest, I am still hoping that Canach is involved somehow. He knows how to manipulate toxins, at least.

I don’t want Canach to be truly evil, but Scarlet is already too overpowered. Having other people involved that actually have skills that she does not would make the whole story more interesting. It is hard to like a character that excels on absolutely everything and don’t really need help, besides a bunch of minions that don’t mind being killed.

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

As Konig referenced, it’s not “what scarlet knows”, in this case, it’s “who she knows”.

And as the most successful business people in RL practice, they don’t need to know everything, they just need to know who to hire… (and how to hire).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

CHIPS.6018:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh97jGEGA7g#t=50m10s

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFVUI_aqbU

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

One should assume scarlet is not just adept in one form of engineering she is also a capable bio engineer also she did study in all three asuran colleges and Jeff Grubb has compared the College of Synergetics to nuclear engineers the College of Dynamics to chemical engineering and the College of Statics to civil engineers.So one can easy see scarlet creating somthing that falls in line between the three and what she mite have learned from the hylecks or inquest and her natural born syvari knowledge of plants.

Surprise, surprise, Scarlet is a Mary-Sue. Who would have thought. The storylines get worse and worse with every update. Nothing new. I sure hope Ree and Jeff are working on something big to make up for this mess.

Marquie Thomas.1873:

CHIPS.6018:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh97jGEGA7g#t=50m10s

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFVUI_aqbU

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

One should assume scarlet is not just adept in one form of engineering she is also a capable bio engineer also she did study in all three asuran colleges and Jeff Grubb has compared the College of Synergetics to nuclear engineers the College of Dynamics to chemical engineering and the College of Statics to civil engineers.So one can easy see scarlet creating somthing that falls in line between the three and what she mite have learned from the hylecks or inquest and her natural born syvari knowledge of plants.

You have to keep in mind that the core problem here is the Mary Sue-ness of Scarlet. I mean yes Scarlet picked up a bunch of knowledge from many different people. However the problem is she excels in ALL of them. She can make high tech gadgets and BOWs at the same time. And her story isn’t over yet, so she can still do more.

Think about it this way. Let’s say there are 5 people with 5 different skills and abilities. They each spent years (e.g. 20+ years) to master their work.

Scarlet went to all 5 of them one by one. She master all their act in a year or less, and then left. A few years later, she returned and has exceeded all 5 of her masters in all their skills and abilities. Not only exceeded. She raised the bar to an outer space kind of level.

5 master X 20 years = 100 years of combined knowledge. Scarlet mastered all of that in 5 years, and then went beyond them. She is literally more than 20 times smarter than all of her 5 masters.

Is this kind of story possible? Yes. But it becomes a Mary Sue story, a character that’s good in absolute everything and has no weakness.

CHIPS.6018:

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh97jGEGA7g#t=50m10s

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFVUI_aqbU

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

1. Plant magic is not “summoning plants to fight for you” – plant magic is utilizing magic to alter plants. Sylvari do this to create armor, weapons, even housing, forts, and mortars. In the Nightmare Court’s case they use it to convert other sylvari forcibly to the Nightmare, to build gates, etc. While we haven’t seen sylvari putting other races into plants, nothing says that the Toxic Alliance has done such (the Hybrid, despite its name, looks more like something born as a plant like a sylvari or a husk, rather than a krait turned into a plant-like being), and there was no reason for a sylvari to attempt such before now. So nothing says that they couldn’t imbue another race with plant-like qualities. Furthermore, given the FACT that it was the Nightmare Court’s doing, not just – at best – Scarlet’s, no it does not demonstrate that “Scarlet is the best biologist” given how magic is not part of the biologist’s description and we have no clue how easy this is to do nor do we have any clue how good of one Scarlet would be even if she were one.
2. But nothing shows that she has “suddenly knowledge in biology.” I know you hate Scarlet. Hell, I do too. But come on. Stop twisting the facts to fit your argument. That’s just idiotic to anyone who does their research and falsifying facts. If you so truly believe that then point it out to me where we see that Scarlet had anything to do with the making of the Toxic Hybrid because there is nothing that you’ve pointed out or during the story instance “The Nightmare Incarnate” which even implies this – only that she put the alliance together and most likely directed the alliance’s actions. And that line you pointed out? No, it doesn’t show at all that the Hybrid was made by Scarlet. It only showed how she got the krait’s aid – by promising the Prophet’s return. Given the Nightmare Court’s alliance with her and the Toxic Oratuss’ line “At last, our alliance gives us the power to scale the heavens themselves!” on top of the Baron’s line “As long as they believe we’re incarnating one of their true prophets, they’ll die to protect it. Toxic Baroness: It’s a pity that Scarlet didn’t stay to witness the realization of her vision.” this implies more that Scarlet only directed what they were doing. It was “her vision” not “her work” – there is a huge difference between the two.
3. You’re wrong. There is one phase where it fights like a Hypnoss. Except for the initial part of the fight where the thing is crawling around, it switches between fighting like the standard krait mobs with slight additions to his skillset – Damoss (two daggers), Hypnoss (a single staff), and Nimross (two spears). You should replay it and pay more attention.
4. Exactly, pulling the strings. She did not make their inventions. She put them to work with each other and told them what to do. She was a director. This is exactly what I stated myself. You only reiterated exactly what I said.

CHIPS.6018:

You have to keep in mind that the core problem here is the Mary Sue-ness of Scarlet. I mean yes Scarlet picked up a bunch of knowledge from many different people. However the problem is she excels in ALL of them. She can make high tech gadgets and BOWs at the same time. And her story isn’t over yet, so she can still do more.

Think about it this way. Let’s say there are 5 people with 5 different skills and abilities. They each spent years (e.g. 20+ years) to master their work.

Scarlet went to all 5 of them one by one. She master all their act in a year or less, and then left. A few years later, she returned and has exceeded all 5 of her masters in all their skills and abilities. Not only exceeded. She raised the bar to an outer space kind of level.

5 master X 20 years = 100 years of combined knowledge. Scarlet mastered all of that in 5 years, and then went beyond them. She is literally more than 20 times smarter than all of her 5 masters.

Is this kind of story possible? Yes. But it becomes a Mary Sue story, a character that’s good in absolute everything and has no weakness.

I would like to note:

• Scarlet did not master the crafts. She obtained an intermediate understanding of them.
• Some crafts she was with for “months” to learn, others took years. The charr sniper, for example, she was with for two years. Beigarth she was with for a winter. But none of them she actually mastered.
• She still hasn’t exceeded the masters. Unless you mean “exceed in terms of terrorism” because then yeah, she has. Let’s face it, none of Scarlet’s ploys work when we figure them out. Scarlet’s strongest weapon is secrecy, and that’s now out the window after the first 10 minutes usually. Her second strongest weapon is her alliance making, who does all these feats of magic and engineering we’re seeing. The only threat that we’ve seen which Scarlet did herself… was Queen’s Jubilee and the hijacking of the Watchknights into those Twisted Watchwork creatures.

So you can actually argue that Scarlet does, indeed, hold a weakness. That weakness is that none of her plans actually succeed. For all her knowledge and ability to learn and understand better than others, she cannot make things work all the way through. The issue with it reducing this as a potential weakness is the fact that she doesn’t care – and given this latest update, it seems to be due to the fact that Scarlet’s not after the alliance’s goals, she’s after something that they make to reach their own goals. Scarlet sets up her alliances in order to obtain their means, not their ends.

Konig, you have to understand that this is a message to Anet, not to you. It is not your job to defend the story.

Details are everything in the story. We players shouldn’t need to spent time guessing what happened. What happened should be clearly stated.

1) Did you see any Sylvari biologist claiming that they made the hybrid? I hasn’t seen any researcher in that whole tower. I only saw soldiers. What prove do you have that these researchers and biologists exist? Or is this just your assumption?

If Anet do not want people to suspect Scarlet did it, they should put a name behind it. Make someone else responsible for the hybrid. Create biologist(s) that’s isn’t Scarlet. Some kind of NC evil genius. etc

How did you conclude that NC can imbue other races with plant magic? You claim that this is a fact, yet we have never seen this anywhere else. This is once again an assumption. Those NC Sylvari that changed into the Nightmare Tree is not the same thing, because they were a tree to begin with.

As you can see Konig, we are both working with assumptions here. But why are we? Why wasn’t more solid facts given? Why is everything up for the players’ to guess? The story lacks details.

2) Once again, a lack of any biologists in that tower makes the assumption on “Scarlet did it” easy to do. It makes more sense, to me, to put it on Scarlet (which exists) than these phantom biologists (which I have never seen).

If Anet would focus on these “minor” details and PUT SOME BIOLOGISTS in that tower, I won’t need to worry about this.

When I play Starcraft 1, one of the missions involves you leading zergs to infest a science vessel in space. Inside it, we encounter numerous researchers. They are very easy to kill and cannot fight back. So why are they there?

Details, details, details. Having the researchers there makes the mission much more believable.

3) I both seen and played though the whole fight. I has not seen one single skill from the hybrid that I would consider magical. I did see plant magic. But of course! It is a krait/Sylvari hybrid after all.

Would you seriously call the hybrid a mage, with a straight face?

At the same time, I have no problem calling Baelfire and Subject Alpha mages. They both uses a lot of magic spells.

4) You said that Scarlet is a hands off manager. But Scarlet herself said they are her puppets, perfectly under her control. I am done with this point.

Konig, this is the part that frustrates me the most. You and I spent a lot of time worrying about the logic and details of the story. But this is Anet’s story! Why are we worrying about it? And the worst part is, why do we have to argue over assumptions? Where are the solid facts?

I could very well keep quiet, and I did for the longest time. I didn’t start this whole anti-Scarlet rally. It started way before me.

Like I said many times, all I care about now is the future stories. And details is what Anet got to work on. They must provide us with solid facts, so the story flows and makes sense. Let’s go back to the basics of story writting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws

Who is it about?
What happened?
When did it take place?
Where did it take place?
Why did it happen?
How did it happen?

These would be the questions that the audiences will ask. And these should be enough facts for the audiences to find the answer.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS.6018:

You have to keep in mind that the core problem here is the Mary Sue-ness of Scarlet. I mean yes Scarlet picked up a bunch of knowledge from many different people. However the problem is she excels in ALL of them. She can make high tech gadgets and BOWs at the same time. And her story isn’t over yet, so she can still do more.

Think about it this way. Let’s say there are 5 people with 5 different skills and abilities. They each spent years (e.g. 20+ years) to master their work.

Scarlet went to all 5 of them one by one. She master all their act in a year or less, and then left. A few years later, she returned and has exceeded all 5 of her masters in all their skills and abilities. Not only exceeded. She raised the bar to an outer space kind of level.

5 master X 20 years = 100 years of combined knowledge. Scarlet mastered all of that in 5 years, and then went beyond them. She is literally more than 20 times smarter than all of her 5 masters.

Is this kind of story possible? Yes. But it becomes a Mary Sue story, a character that’s good in absolute everything and has no weakness.

I would like to note:

• Scarlet did not master the crafts. She obtained an intermediate understanding of them.
• Some crafts she was with for “months” to learn, others took years. The charr sniper, for example, she was with for two years. Beigarth she was with for a winter. But none of them she actually mastered.
• She still hasn’t exceeded the masters. Unless you mean “exceed in terms of terrorism” because then yeah, she has. Let’s face it, none of Scarlet’s ploys work when we figure them out. Scarlet’s strongest weapon is secrecy, and that’s now out the window after the first 10 minutes usually. Her second strongest weapon is her alliance making, who does all these feats of magic and engineering we’re seeing. The only threat that we’ve seen which Scarlet did herself… was Queen’s Jubilee and the hijacking of the Watchknights into those Twisted Watchwork creatures.

So you can actually argue that Scarlet does, indeed, hold a weakness. That weakness is that none of her plans actually succeed. For all her knowledge and ability to learn and understand better than others, she cannot make things work all the way through. The issue with it reducing this as a potential weakness is the fact that she doesn’t care – and given this latest update, it seems to be due to the fact that Scarlet’s not after the alliance’s goals, she’s after something that they make to reach their own goals. Scarlet sets up her alliances in order to obtain their means, not their ends.

Until we see fear, anger or tear from Scarlet, we hasn’t won anything. All these defeats means nothing to her. Where is the failure?

Please give Scarlet a mentor that she really respects, and now works with her. And then please let us kill him. And then please make Scarlet rush to his aid, fearing for his life, only to see us players strike him down right in front of her. Please make Scarlet angry and swear for revenge.

Please give Scarlet a childhood friend, and now her most devoted follower. And then please let us kill her. And then please make Scarlet angry and swear for revenge

Please give Scarlet a boyfriend. And then please let us kill him. And then please make Scarlet cry and swear for revenge. These failures are real and they hurt, a lot!

Then YES that was a sweet victory for us, because that’s the day Scarlet is no long Villain Sue.

Not to be taken as assaulting or confrontational, but educational.
I would just like to point out that “biological” and “organic” are the exact same thing and are synonyms of eachother. So “Bio-Organic” is redundant and would be the same as “Biological-Biological Weapon” or “Organic-Organic Weapon”.

Scarlet is not a Mary Sue… she created (or had help in creating) a bio weapon of possible mass destruction. How many people in the real world have been able to do that? Manhattan project? Albert Einstein? What we have here is someone on that real world level of equivalency!

It is entirely possible for someone to have the education on the level of 6 PhDs to make such feats on engineering in real world to cause mass death and destruction, why not in game using in game universe examples?

StinVec.3621:

Not to be taken as assaulting or confrontational, but educational.
I would just like to point out that “biological” and “organic” are the exact same thing and are synonyms of eachother. So “Bio-Organic” is redundant and would be the same as “Biological-Biological Weapon” or “Organic-Organic Weapon”.

Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) is a term from the Resident Evil series. Bio-weapon includes both BOWs and viruses. BOW means a full size life form created as a weapon.

She saw everything. She learned everywhere. She can do anything.

I still think that the reason Scarlet is called a Mary Sue is because she is supposed to be the personel nemesis of the Player. An equal in power. And storywise the Player is a person who destroyed almost every evil/criminal organisation in Tyria in a few months and created the biggest and most powerful alliance in all of Tyria (the Pact).
So she has to be powerful or this whole fight just wouldn’t be fair.

@Konig
I am very happy that some else understood the fact that Scarlets biggest strength is her ability to create alliances but that also every plan of her failed despite being called a Mary Sue so often.

They are dead wrong and utterly single-minded to say the least. Having someone equal in power (by any measure) is boring and can be killed by just saying, “Hey look over there!” STABS DEAD!. We kill vets or champs which are equal in power everyday. Real villains and evil masterminds are just like scarlet intelligent cunning almost no weaknesses and flaws and must take an army (or 5-6 man band of heroes) to kill them. There is a such thing in storytelling as “larger than life”. It has been around since Beowulf.

I constantly see people go whit argument that Scarlet is not Mary Sue because she always lose to player, but be honest here have any of you ever feel that she lost?

Every time you destroy her plans, she goes whit “Well im done here, time to move on, see you next time”, she is practicaly toying whit players, she never shown any care about her failed plans. Even in this LS you can see that this Tower was just some playground for her.
How can you talk about Scarlet defeat when, after all you did, she leave with a smile.

So far she stands undefeated, thinking about her next plan, and a new way to annoy us.

Honestly, when I was doing invasions in the Clockwork Chaos, it felt like she was surprised that I (and 10,000 other adventurers) were able to defeat her. Her dialogue seemed to point to her expecting to succeed at something, sadly this isn’t visible in game anymore as her invasions always fail due to diluted rewards or champion farming.

CHIPS.6018:

Konig, you have to understand that this is a message to Anet, not to you. It is not your job to defend the story.

The problem is, when you miss obvious easily-checked details, you’re making a potential strawman of yourself. In this particular case, for instance, someone who wants to deny that the Scarlet storyline has it’s problems and go “look, CHIPS here is calling Scarlet a VillainSue for doing something that’s a common ability among sylvari, and where there’s ample reasons to think that the thing he says she did wasn’t actually done by her in the first place! Clearly, the people who hate Scarlet only do so because they don’t actually understand what is really going on!”

And then they proceed to dismiss all of us because you’ve given them a strawman to beat down and they can present you as typical of those of us who don’t think her story has been a good one.

In order to be taken seriously, we need to make sure we come across as rational and base our arguments on firm foundations, rather than jumping to conclusions that are easily countered. Because if the people who are on your side are picking holes in your argument, what makes you think the other side isn’t going to be picking the same holes and thereby deciding that your position is baseless?

While I agree there are some things wrong with Scarlet, I do not agree that biological magic is one of them.

There is something i don’t understand about you guys. So the only reason why people think that Scarlet is some kind of Sue is because she never admits defeat?
That’s what people call a pokerface.

I mean you can’t think she is overpowered because she gets defeated every single time.

For myself, let her have all the fun stuff. I mean she should throw everything she has at us. Molten Alliance, Watchwork, Aetherblades, Toxic Nightmare; everything.
It will make the final showdown even more awesome.

Derom.1205:

There is something i don’t understand about you guys. So the only reason why people think that Scarlet is some kind of Sue is because she never admits defeat?
That’s what people call a pokerface.

I mean you can’t think she is overpowered because she gets defeated every single time.

For myself, let her have all the fun stuff. I mean she should throw everything she has at us. Molten Alliance, Watchwork, Aetherblades, Toxic Nightmare; everything.
It will make the final showdown even more awesome.

Well have we ever defeated her? Every time we foil one of her plans, she just comes back, with a new army. It’s not about her not admitting defeat, it’s mostly because she doesn’t care when she is defeated, because she can make alliances of doom on a whim. There is no consequenz for her. No matter how much we stomp her minions to the ground, they still flock to her.
Sure we manage to save the day, but what does it matter, if she can comeback only weeks later with full force again. That’s why she is a villian sue.

“So the only reason why people think that Scarlet is some kind of Sue is because she never admits defeat?”

That’s your supposition and it’s wrong. She is a bad villain because she is unbelievable in what she does. A lot of what she does is unexplained and you can either unquestioningly believe it or you question it then disbelieve it. This lore forum only exists because game players believe the game lore is worth discussing as a coherent believable package. As soon as the coherent lore is broken it just becomes rambling fantasy nonsense. That’s where we are with Scarlet.

If there were one or two holes in the story then we could expect them to be filled later or it might not even matter. This living story however is swiss cheese without the cheese.

The only real good news out of any of this, is that if we’re lucky we’ll get to see this whole thing blow up in her face soon. I personally find it very likely that once the krait find out that they were duped, they will shatter their alliance and bring the full brunt of their anger on her (if or when they can find Scarlet). I personally think one of the best ways that this could end would be finding this location on the other side of the second portal type (the steam-pipe location) and fighting out way through it only to see that Scarlet is already failing utterly. Her Molten Alliance and Toxic alliance are fighting each other/her, the Inquest have abandoned her, and the Aetherblades are starting to think that perhaps protecting her isn’t worth what she pays. We get to the top/end just in time to land the final blow, destroying her completely.

@ Draxynnic:Thats the point. Why should the Pro Scarlet faction take the arguments from the ones who dislike Scarlet seriously. They only have to see the arguments from chips and can dismiss the things that are wrong with Scarlet. The arguments or „facts“ from him aren’t really logical, I would say they come from Troll Logic, nothing to take serious.

But well, back to Scarlet. She isn’t a biologist, didn’t create the Molten Alliance weapons and Aetherblade Tech and she isn’t a mesmer ( saw this one from another in another thread ). Nothing in the game hints, that she had done such a thing. The Hybrid is a Toxic Alliance creation. The Molten Alliance Magitek was created and developed from the Alliance, same with the Aetherblade tech. Nothing from this was created by Scarlet herself. She only takes from them what is useful for her or the Aetherblades.

And I hope that the Krait will find out about the NC and their „ Prophets“ and I also want to see their reaction. It is easy to anger religious people if you play with their religion.^^

“But well, back to Scarlet. She isn’t a biologist, didn’t create the Molten Alliance weapons and Aetherblade Tech and she isn’t a mesmer ( saw this one from another in another thread ). Nothing in the game hints, that she had done such a thing. The Hybrid is a Toxic Alliance creation. "

No, there is nothing in the game to suggest that the hybrid is a toxic alliance creation (rather than Scarlet). That is just your assumption. There was nothing at all in the tower to suggest how this hybrid was researched or created. We see a militarized death trap in game but players can decide that it is research and birthing facility if they choose to do so. We still have no idea why a massive tower in the middle of Vaithan lake was necessary to all this. The story is completely full of holes and some players fill in the gaps with their own interpretation of the lore to satisfy themselves.

The nightmare court within the tower speak about “making the krait’s prophet”. This could easily be interpreted as the Hybrid being a NC creation, and have some validity behind it. Plus, Scarlet’s talk in the cinematic makes it very clear that whatever she wanted from this alliance, she got. This would mean it’s highly unlikely that the Hybrid was something she wanted (since we killed it).

Derom.1205:

There is something i don’t understand about you guys. So the only reason why people think that Scarlet is some kind of Sue is because she never admits defeat?
That’s what people call a pokerface.

I mean you can’t think she is overpowered because she gets defeated every single time.

For myself, let her have all the fun stuff. I mean she should throw everything she has at us. Molten Alliance, Watchwork, Aetherblades, Toxic Nightmare; everything.
It will make the final showdown even more awesome.

Back in GW1, Varesh Ossa was an engaging character from her interactions with Kahyet, Morgahn and Abaddon. The direct interactions between the players and Varesh was slim to none.

Kahyet was one of Varesh’s mentors. Kahyet was the evil teacher that Varesh really sided with. When the players killed Kahyet, we saw anger in Varesh. Kahyet MATTERS to Varesh. It hurts to lose her mentor.

Morgahn was another mentor of Varesh. Morgahn was the good teacher that Varesh, tragically, decided to betray. He was, in a sense, the last chance for Varesh to turn around. So her fall to evil was much more believable.

Abaddon was the god of Varesh. She risked everything for her god’s freedom. This shows the amount of devotion in Varesh. She could potentially do so much more if she had only put all that devotion into something good. But tragically her devotion was misplaced.

Evil villain’s interactions with those people around her is what give that villain character.

Scarlet doesn’t need anyone. She never interact with anyone. She never feel anything for anyone. She have no attachment. She never feel love, pain, fear, anger, sadness and frustration. And that’s why her character is so shallow.

Walhalla.5473:

@ Draxynnic:Thats the point. Why should the Pro Scarlet faction take the arguments from the ones who dislike Scarlet seriously. They only have to see the arguments from chips and can dismiss the things that are wrong with Scarlet. The arguments or „facts“ from him aren’t really logical, I would say they come from Troll Logic, nothing to take serious.

But well, back to Scarlet. She isn’t a biologist, didn’t create the Molten Alliance weapons and Aetherblade Tech and she isn’t a mesmer ( saw this one from another in another thread ). Nothing in the game hints, that she had done such a thing. The Hybrid is a Toxic Alliance creation. The Molten Alliance Magitek was created and developed from the Alliance, same with the Aetherblade tech. Nothing from this was created by Scarlet herself. She only takes from them what is useful for her or the Aetherblades.

And I hope that the Krait will find out about the NC and their „ Prophets“ and I also want to see their reaction. It is easy to anger religious people if you play with their religion.^^

I might be a troll if you can prove to me:

-find another instance where Sylvari put other people (of another race) into a plant and transforms him into a powerful hybrid. This proves the “hybrids are so easy that any Sylvari teenager can make one” theory.

-Scarlet directly said she didn’t make the hybrid. Or someone else claims that they made the hybrid. This proves that she didn’t make it.

-Molten Alliance directly said they got no help from Scarlet with the weapons. Or someone else claim responsibility for the weapons. This proves that they made their own weapons.

-Aetherblade directly said they got no help from Scarlet with the weapons. Or someone else claim responsibility for the weapons. This proves that they made their own weapons.

If you cannot show me 100% prove to the above, then all your “conclusions” are just assumptions. I don’t blame you though. I blame Anet. Like I said they did not provide the players with enough details and facts to fill the plot gaps and holes.

And here is the tragic part. Let’s say you did prove all of the above. Congrats! You just created the biggest plot hole in the whole Scarlet’s story because:

-If Scarlet didn’t do anything for any of these alliances, why in the world would they risk their lives to obey and die for Scarlet? Where is the logic of fighting and dying for this person who is not even part of their own race?

OMG HOW???

Answer: Mary Sue

/thread

Yet villains that rely on other like you say above CHIPS, are weak villains: full of humanity-based weaknesses. Scarlet is above that and she far more of a villain and deadlier as she has no morals or people she cares for. To be a complete monster is what she has become and that makes even a better villain. She is devil in disguise and demon in all sense of the word. She could just say, “I’ll just kill you all as son as you walk up to my door step, but where is the fun in that?”

She is reveling in all this despair and failures of her alliances as it emboldens her as they are in worse shape now than they started in (you can say that the molten alliance was a good thing for the “Big darn heroes”, as they now have their backs broken even more than before). The best villains are sociopaths with no remorse and no emotion or ties to family or anyone, they will be willing to nuke the world to get what they want (which may be what Scarlet’s goal as evidence by wooden potatoes and my own conclusion from all the PS and LS stuff so far combined). Scarlet is by far the best villain so far compared to say a bland dragon which might as well be mindless compared to her cold calculating yet jovial personality.

CHIPS.6018:

SNIP

Can you prove to me 100% that Scarlet created the Aetherblade tech, the Molten Alliance tech, or the Hybrid? Because otherwise you are also making massive assumptions.

From what we saw in the Aetherblade Retreat, it seems highly likely that the Inquest were supplying them their weapons. Similarly, the Dead Drops pointed more towards the Molten Alliance working together to create their technology and never mentions Scarlet as anything more than the mind behind the alliance itself.

Narcemus.1348:

CHIPS.6018:

SNIP

Can you prove to me 100% that Scarlet created the Aetherblade tech, the Molten Alliance tech, or the Hybrid? Because otherwise you are also making massive assumptions.

From what we saw in the Aetherblade Retreat, it seems highly likely that the Inquest were supplying them their weapons. Similarly, the Dead Drops pointed more towards the Molten Alliance working together to create their technology and never mentions Scarlet as anything more than the mind behind the alliance itself.

There is not enough solid facts and details for any of us to draw solid conclusions on who made those weapons. That’s the problem with Anet’s story writing.

You are guessing Inquest. Where is the prove?
I am guessing Scarlet. Where is the prove?
Walhalla is guessing the alliances themselves made the weapons. Where is the prove?

It is obvious why everyone is drawing their own conclusions on how they see the story fits.

I did read the whole dead drop. Nothing in there shows clear fact on who made those weapons:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mysterious_Device

In fact, I can easily argue it was Scarlet who made the weapons due to the following message:

“Looking into a reason for the alliance. Little success. Something pushed the Flame Legion and dredge together, but it wasn’t desperation or minions of Primordus. So what? Why?”

If you are perfectly happy with the story, then please go ahead and enjoy it. I am just voicing my own displeasure with it.

ITT: People who don’t know what a Mary Sue is.

I’m just saying that you are claiming this as one of your biggest claims about how wrong she is, and you are saying that the players HAVE to prove you wrong, but you yourself could quite well be wrong. I agree that there are holes in the story, but I don’t agree that these holes you are pointing out are a bad thing. I am far from a Scarlet fan-boy, but I cannot help but disagree with you on the points you bring up. Plus, if you read that dead drop, all it hints to is that Scarlet pushed the alliance together, which I stated in my last post, was likely her only involvement within until after the alliance collapsed.

Nobody said that any sylvari could do it (“teenager” is not really an appropriate term where sylvari are concerned) just that it’s not a massive leap that from things that sylvari in general (plant manipulation including Canach’s spores infecting the wildlife of Southsun) and Nightmare Court in particular (corruption of plants and animals into the Nightmare) have done. We’ve also seen cases of animals being temporarily transformed into plant creatures (hearts in Caledon Forest when played by a non-sylvari, Avatar of Melandru). It’s far from outside the realm of possibility that these elements can lead to someone figuring out a way to make hybrids, especially if the Inquest is directly or indirectly involved.

We have been told that the Molten Alliance made their own weapons (and, in fact, that was part of the point – Scarlet put them together because she wanted the stuff she figured they’d be able to make), and much of the Aetherblade tech comes from the Inquest (unfortunately, I’m too busy today to do the digging myself). Did Scarlet play a role? Almost certainly, but we’re not being asked to believe that she built everything that is used by her subjects as you suggest.

Seriously, you’re beginning to make me think of the character that works as a professional strawman – deliberately losing public debates to his employer – in Questionable Content. When your own side thinks you’re being irrational, what chance do you have of swaying anyone?

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Yet villains that rely on other like you say above CHIPS, are weak villains: full of humanity-based weaknesses. Scarlet is above that and she far more of a villain and deadlier as she has no morals or people she cares for. To be a complete monster is what she has become and that makes even a better villain. She is devil in disguise and demon in all sense of the word. She could just say, “I’ll just kill you all as son as you walk up to my door step, but where is the fun in that?”

Characters that are good at everything with no weaknesses or flaws are pretty close to the definition of a Sue. The only thing that’s more Sue is having things that are presented as weaknesses and yet never seem to present any form of real hindrance to the character – like, say, being bat-guano crazy on screen but never losing her cool in the face of defeat while apparently being a consummate charmer offscreen, or being overconfident to the point of never taking her enemies seriously, and yet always having an escape plan.

In my opinion the only mistake Anet made is the failure to show that Scarlet acknowledges the player (techniclly her arch-nemesis) as a serious threat.
I mean for her there is this guy/gal who just doesn’t give a skritt about everything and “spoils” her fun.

At least they tried to do something like that when Scarlet says that she will make a special project out of you after the event with the spider eggs.

And one more thing: while “everyone” says she is a Sue, most people haven’t noticed that she is actually a pretty weak fighter, very reliant on her various gadgets to do anything. A straight fight with her would be just boring.

Derom.1205:

And one more thing: while “everyone” says she is a Sue, most people haven’t noticed that she is actually a pretty weak fighter, very reliant on her various gadgets to do anything. A straight fight with her would be just boring.

Clearly, you never had the experience of having Scarlet jump on you during an invasion when you’re on your own or with only a small group. It’s pretty much a guarantee of having to pay for a waypoint and a res cost. Far from being weak in a straight fight as you claim, she’s frelling nasty.

Not to mention that she apparently swings a crude club with more force than an enraged ettin.

Derom.1205:

At least they tried to do something like that when Scarlet says that she will make a special project out of you after the event with the spider eggs.

That line is from the end of Queen’s Jubilee, specifically the end of Scarlet’s Playhouse. A lot of the lines come from her ambient dialogue come from the ambient dialogue in DR during Clockwork Chaos.

It’s been how long and she hasn’t made due on that promise. Hell, she doesn’t even recognize our efforts despite us being the very first people in her entire life to ruin her projects. And that’s where she fails. She had no character development despite her claims for change in character and despite being out through events that should change and thus develop her character. She even now acts no different than she Ceara when she was “born”.

And she isn’t a sue because she is invincible or something. Though a direct fight with her is indeed very boring as Scarlet’s Playhouse showed us. She was a series of gimmicky fightsand none were taken seriously by anyone. But as Drax said, she is far from weak.

A lot of the hate (not all of it) seems to come from people taking their own assumptions as facts.

The story is moving slow, we don’t have very many answers yet, we don’t know her goals (which she has, according to the cutscene at the Toxic Hybrid). So people are taking the little info they have, filling in the gaps with their assumptions, then coming to the forums to state them as facts and bashing Scarlet/Writers for ruining the lore.

Can we just keep them as assumptions/speculations until the story is done?

Then you can complain if you still think the same at the end.

I remember people calling her a Mary-Sue, copy of Joker etc. etc. When she first got officially introduced during the Queens Jubilee, this was before the short story about her was up.

It’s like reading a book, and expecting every answer in chapter 1.
Let the story play out first.

Just because I like debating, though I fully agree with your comment about assumptions, on that last two parts:

People actually call her a Mary Sue because of the short story, not prior to it. Before it was just a Joker-copy because that’s what we saw, that’s what we’ve been shown. And in-game, that portrayal has not changed (yet in short stories, we get someone somewhat different – someone who doesn’t make a joke out of everything, just a lot of things).

And it’s not like reading a book and expecting answers in chapter 1. I really hate that analogy that Anet gave, as well as the weekly TV show analogy. The main difference is that the story progresses more frequently in either case, and the chapters/shows are fuller. We should be more in chapter 7 or so, rather than 1. But tell me this: how many people read a book so slowly that they get through a single chapter every 2 to 6 weeks? I know that whenever I took that slowly, it was only because I was bored of the plot or writing and only continued reading because I’m a completionist – if I start something, I finish it (on a side: the only book I never finished since I became a more avid reader was the Twilight series, made it to the fourth book before I couldn’t stand it anymore). And I also know that I – and others I presume – would end up bored with a plot that drags out so long and so slowly. And that is what I see on the forums, vocal minority argument or not.

CHIPS.6018:

I think it is fair to say that engineering has absolutely nothing to do with biology.

There is so very much wrong with this statement ( the rest had a point, just this bit in particular is false.) They are different disciplines to be sure, but living things are organic machines, heck there’s a bug that has gears notched into its rear legs :P There’s far more to biology than chemicals and such, anything you see fro a simple seed pod to an entire ecosystem, theres’s still mechanical engineering underneath it (even if the mechanisms involved are organic in nature~)

While I do agree that Scarlet’s introduction could’ve been executed much better, it is not too hard for me to see that many of the anti-Scarlet arguments here are mere assumptions driven by blind hate against her. I believe it would be most beneficial for everyone to take a minute and think, and digest everything we’ve learned so far before simply spewing logical fallacies here and there.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

While I do agree that Scarlet’s introduction could’ve been executed much better, it is not too hard for me to see that many of the anti-Scarlet arguments here are mere assumptions driven by blind hate against her. I believe it would be most beneficial for everyone to take a minute and think, and digest everything we’ve learned so far before simply spewing logical fallacies here and there.

I think we also have to accept that there is a lot we just don’t know.
- We presumably lack the facts required to understand everything about her, and just because we lack these facts doesn’t mean that she’s a problematic character.
I know this isn’t really the function of a forum – but I think everyone is just going to have to sit and wait to see what’s going on.