Guild Wars 2

Stooperdale.3560:

“ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.”

They did. It was the investigation with Marjory at the Dead End. It doesn’t seem like solid lore because it was shallow and unconvincing. I still feel that 95% or more of the Dead End investigation will be the final word on the matter.

Chasing clues by omissions has been a waste of time so far. The Pale Tree never did anything about Scarlet because … because …. it wasn’t in the story. No more to be said.

I do not agree completely. Anet put a lot of efforts in details ( just think to all the minor dialogues around the world, even not related to the story).
While for sure what was said during the investigation must be considered true, a lot of things were left unresolved with a purpose, not because they forgot about it.

webtoehobbit.4201:

I am totally with Konig here, until they definitively mention in game some things about Scarlet, you can’t just assume that what you “think” happened is lore, cause it’s not, this is not how the game can continue lore wise. ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.

I totally second this from the bottom of my heart. I’m rather tired of the wishy-washy answers. They really need to stop with the speculation-game. Speculation should happen naturally as by-product of solid lore, not as method to leave the foundation of the plot up to player fantasy.

But to play the devil’s advocate the stupid murder-mystery theme they’ve given this LS season contributes a lot to these assumptions being taken as fact and the number of plot-twists has been close to nonexistent in all of GW2, pre-LS included.
So far most of the LS has really been “it’s probably the simplest answer, but there’s a chance it could be something else because ~insert mystery~. Oh surprise, it was the simple answer after all!”
So I’m also neither surprised nor can I really blame the players. Not that from a lore-standpoint I’m okay with assumptions being stated as fact, but from a writer’s POV there’s a huge issue in the presentation which fuels the cause of people doing that.

Anet’s fallen too much in love with making mysteries where no mystery needs to be. Or where no mystery should be. And on the other side they’re failing to put solid explanations ingame.

ElysianEternity.6215:

webtoehobbit.4201:

I am totally with Konig here, until they definitively mention in game some things about Scarlet, you can’t just assume that what you “think” happened is lore, cause it’s not, this is not how the game can continue lore wise. ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.

I totally second this from the bottom of my heart. I’m rather tired of the wishy-washy answers. They really need to stop with the speculation-game. Speculation should happen naturally as by-product of solid lore, not as method to leave the foundation of the plot up to player fantasy.

But to play the devil’s advocate the stupid murder-mystery theme they’ve given this LS season contributes a lot to these assumptions being taken as fact and the number of plot-twists has been close to nonexistent in all of GW2, pre-LS included.
So far most of the LS has really been “it’s probably the simplest answer, but there’s a chance it could be something else because ~insert mystery~. Oh surprise, it was the simple answer after all!”
So I’m also neither surprised nor can I really blame the players. Not that from a lore-standpoint I’m okay with assumptions being stated as fact, but from a writer’s POV there’s a huge issue in the presentation which fuels the cause of people doing that.

Anet’s fallen too much in love with making mysteries where no mystery needs to be. Or where no mystery should be. And on the other side they’re failing to put solid explanations ingame.

I sensed the great mystery and all starts to make sense afterwards. I just wonder how long it will take until the decision is made to reveal it. We have a lot of stories to go and will see more mysteries on the way until we’ll get an imagination of great evil.

I know who I want to stab in this game (Who and why). I know that I don’t have the power and I’m worried if stabbing is the solution. I know that there are some people fighting it, but I don’t know if they do it for saving Tyria or if they are tied to minor objectives. Scarlet showed me that there are some, who know more, but they maybe don’t know it all.

The range for storytelling is still high, but everything has it’s borders and shouldn’t be torn down to please the players. I started to investigate the story for clues, because a lot of people told that the story is consistent and that I don’t have to expect the evil for evil reasons. While I don’t have the reason behind the major evil, I found a lot possibilities to even get this one explained. I am looking forward for the untold stories that happen(ed).

You’ll get explanations, but it gets worse before (everything is set up for it).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We never found out Scarlet’s fascination with Caithe+
Not just the secret, but the Spinal Blades blueprint had a quote from Scarlet to Caithe:

The line is: “Caithe, someday you’ll see, Tyria needs me. -Scarlet”

Why add this? If they were going to drop Scarlet’s story, then there’d be no need to further the mystery and this is all it does. There are enough plotholes and loose ends to keep people wondering, so it’s not ArenaNet’s love of seeing fans speculate alone that this is added as.

My 2c on Caithe’s secret? Caithe sought out and found the tree that Malyk descended from. I remember it was a secret that ‘not even caithe’s lover knew’. And it certainly had Caithe rattled. What Malyk represented was very powerful, perhaps more so than we have puzzled out. Who knows, maybe that possible meeting between Caithe and the other tree didn’t go so well.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SUBSCRIBING TO THE NOTION THAT SYLVARI ARE DRAGON SPAWN/MINIONS.

And I just thought of this, in the chamber experiment she sees the Pale tree with a briar thorn growing up and choking it. I think that is important to note in relation to thoeries on why Scarlet did what she did.

I felt pretty certain that I could piece-together Ceara’s ultimate goal from the story arc. It is not so much the final conclusion that causes me to stumble, but explaining the lore mechanics behind it – that is what has confused me and led to a lot of frustration. But as posters have stated: Keep it simple. I think that simplicity leads away from Lazarus. There is more evidence in favor of viewing the entity as either Mordremoth or Mordremoth’s champion than there is for viewing Lazarus, the Inquest, or any other small-time crook for that matter.

Stephen.6312:

I felt pretty certain that I could piece-together Ceara’s ultimate goal from the story arc. It is not so much the final conclusion that causes me to stumble, but explaining the lore mechanics behind it – that is what has confused me and led to a lot of frustration. But as posters have stated: Keep it simple. I think that simplicity leads away from Lazarus. There is more evidence in favor of viewing the entity as either Mordremoth or Mordremoth’s champion than there is for viewing Lazarus, the Inquest, or any other small-time crook for that matter.

It’s worth noting, what Scarlet has done and her method makes sense if you approach it backwards. Start with the effect which took place with the Breachmaker and figure out what pieces she needs to make it happen. Then it starts falling neatly into place . . . with the only exception of “why”.

As has been noted already – Scarlet was showing signs of either a dual personality or being controlled outright at times. I’m sort of siding with the first – the depiction (of questionable canonicity) in “What Scarlet Saw” is of someone who is careless with her studies and only cares about practical uses . . . she departs all her “lessons” after getting basics down because she figures there’s nothing more to learn. Then Omadd happens.

What we see afterwards for the first time is someone capable of many things, but still doesn’t care about the effects . . . just on getting through things. We know she’s been gathering things, but once again . . . it’s not about the whole picture and only about “what do I need out of this”.

One aspect of Scarlet Briar and the previous being of Ceara are alike in this notable detail. They do not consider the full ramifications of their acts, only what they want to do and what is needed to do it.

Then there’s the odd parts – we see in her journal and some of her correspondences she’s not completely bonkers all the time. She clearly has something in mind and is pursuing it with increasing intensity the closer she gets to pulling it off. Please note, while she does have the silly comments at the marionette test there’s still a deadly sincerity . . . and while she is making her last stand before us? Taunting, but she is in control of herself.

The other aspect of Scarlet Briar is her sharp, monomaniacal drive. She fixates on one thing, and that is what draws her in.

These two aspects are not exclusive to each other, especially if there is foresight. And if she was seeking to do any act against that which was influencing her . . . she would need to play a long game indeed.

From the story “What Scarlet Saw”:

““I’ve learned so much,” Scarlet continued. “Now I have to put that knowledge to use. An insurmountable challenge is rising, and my people have been called to meet it. We are compelled by our creator to do so.

“But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how"

There’s something in these words that is yet to be explained.
Scarlet is saying that their creator [the Sylvari Creator – the Pale Tree? A Dragon?] is compelling them to do something. Ok.
But more interesting is her idea that the the forces that push them can be redirected and set against one another.

If waking up a Dragon were Scarlet’s only and final purpose….where does that idea about redirecting forces against one another fit into?
Someting is missing here.

In my own opinion, I believe that the original Scarlet story would be different from what we ultimately got but, due to the overwhelming negative criticism about Scarlet, ANET’s writers chose to “cut the story” and hence, we got a final, patched version that wasn’t their original idea. That’s why there are lots of pieces that don’t make sense and some clues to something greater and/or different about to happen.

But ANET decided to quickly wrap the story up (what an horrid story btw!) and it was patched and twisted to this end, since it was the fastest way to get rid of Scarlet’s arch and end the story.

All in all, a very badly written story and badly executed. The Living Story updates were good, some bad, but the actual story itself was horrendously planned and executed.

Bio Flame.4276:

There’s something in these words that is yet to be explained.
Scarlet is saying that their creator [the Sylvari Creator – the Pale Tree? A Dragon?] is compelling them to do something. Ok.
But more interesting is her idea that the the forces that push them can be redirected and set against one another.

Of course it can, we did it before. Well, we had it done to us before. (Prophecies, Vizier Khilbron’s method of dealing with the White Mantle and Mursaat in the way? Sic us on them. We do his work for him.)

Also, the creator in that was seemingly definite to be the Pale Tree.

If waking up a Dragon were Scarlet’s only and final purpose….where does that idea about redirecting forces against one another fit into?
Someting is missing here.

Not really. Again, possible she’s redirecting us and the dragons to take greater focus on each other.

In my own opinion, I believe that the original Scarlet story would be different from what we ultimately got but, due to the overwhelming negative criticism about Scarlet, ANET’s writers chose to “cut the story” and hence, we got a final, patched version that wasn’t their original idea. That’s why there are lots of pieces that don’t make sense and some clues to something greater and/or different about to happen.

Or it’s like Lost where the pieces which don’t make sense now will make more sense later. And like Lost, it was cut shorter and compressed so everything hit a dead sprint for the end midway through.

But ANET decided to quickly wrap the story up (what an horrid story btw!) and it was patched and twisted to this end, since it was the fastest way to get rid of Scarlet’s arch and end the story.

I don’t blame ANet for doing that, considering there was endless, tireless “kill Scarlet now or I quit, kthnx” type stuff any time the LS was updated. I also don’t think it was badly shifted. I think the first part was leaving too much slow progress and the second part was “fin-a-fricking-lly”.

Again. Like Lost.

All in all, a very badly written story and badly executed. The Living Story updates were good, some bad, but the actual story itself was horrendously planned and executed.

Eh, I find the actual story itself ran into the problem with early execution building some interesting questions on how this was tying together, then there was a lot of “wait, this makes no sense” in the middle, followed by trying to wrap it up. How well they wrapped it up depends on many things, primarily how much slack you were giving the writers to begin with.

. . . like Lost.

Yes, I agree that on “What Scarlet Saw”, the creator she’s speaking about is The Pale Tree, I just didn’t want to assume that there wasn’t any chance of being another “creator”. There is. It could be a Dragon, or something else.
I don’t believe it though. I think, like you do, that she was talking about the Pale Tree.

As for the forces she’s talking about, there is not a conclusive evidence that she’s talking about “us” (as in, the races of Tyria) and the Dragons. It could be, it might be but that is not the only explanation.
We simply do not know nor do we have enough evidence to say for sure.

As for stories being twisted and changed and only at the end do they make sense. Well…that’s usually either an AWESOME story or an HORRENDOUS story. And in this case, it’s clearly not an awesome story.
Yes, in the end the pieces might make sense later, sure….if only in a hammered-in kinda way.
You can either make the pieces of the puzzle fit in nicely or you can force them into fitting in.
That’s usually a sign of a bad story or of a story that was changed after the begining was already set in stone and it couldn’t be re-written anymore, so you end up with….retconing.

Stories have two major aspects – the story itself and the way that it is told (the “delivery”.
A great story is a great story. Period.
But as we all know, there are bad stories that are told amazingly by amazing people and they entertain us. I think we all have friends that have the great ability of turning even a mundane event to a great story just by the way they deliver it.

Well, Scarlet’s arch is sorely missing on both aspects. Think about it.
Waking up a Dragon. Is that a good story in Tyria? Really? We have at least 3 Dragons that are already awake and at large (Kralkatorik, Jormag, Primordius, and possibly Bubbles)…and they are doing…what? Watching TV? Taking a bath? Whatever they are doing, it’s nothing REALLY major, if you compare it to, say, Zhaitan’s actions.
So why is a story about waking a Dragon really worth being told at this point in time?
Should I really be worried and get sleepless nights just because another Dragon awoke? * yawns *. Yeah, another Dragon, get in line because we have plenty to deal with. He’s just one more and the other awakened Dragons are anything but dangerous.

And now, the way the Scarlet’s arch was told, or delivered.
Man, it was really, really really bad. It was so bad that even the Developers agreed it was bad. That’s like, terribad.
It made a mediocre story (concerning conception and plot-wise) into a horrendous story, since it was so badly delivered.

And worse still, at the end, we are still not sure what trully happened. Heck, even the NPCs aren’t sure of what happened.
This is why we are here discussing this thread afterall.
I know I am coming across as harsh towards the writers, but really, the story was so bad that if I trully wanted to be harsh, I could be a lot more than I currently am.

Bio Flame.4276:

As for the forces she’s talking about, there is not a conclusive evidence that she’s talking about “us” (as in, the races of Tyria) and the Dragons. It could be, it might be but that is not the only explanation.
We simply do not know nor do we have enough evidence to say for sure.

No, we don’t. Then again, anything she said I’d have to not take at face value.

As for stories being twisted and changed and only at the end do they make sense. Well…that’s usually either an AWESOME story or an HORRENDOUS story. And in this case, it’s clearly not an awesome story.

Nah, usually it winds up being a decent idea/concept which needed better execution. And extraordinary third act does not save a first act which was terrible. (i.e. no matter how awesome “Revenge of the Sith” was going to be, it would never cancel out “Phantom Menace”. Ever.)

Stories have two major aspects – the story itself and the way that it is told (the “delivery”.

This is true, and the story here may have been only mediocre at best (sorry ANet, I like your games and have tons of fun playing them, but I don’t really see many of your stories hitting “classic of the ages” level . . .)

The delivery was where it just lost its legs.

A great story is a great story. Period.

We are not going to agree on that. There was some site I came across once which had the quest of turning any classic of film or literature into a laconic, sarcastic one-sentence description which made it sound hilariously bad. I think “Romeo and Juliet” went something like: “Teen love comedy where suicide was the answer.”

But as we all know, there are bad stories that are told amazingly by amazing people and they entertain us. I think we all have friends that have the great ability of turning even a mundane event to a great story just by the way they deliver it.

I like to think of those people as “those who work at Rooster Teeth Productions”. Turning a passable FPS into a comedy which has kept going over ten years.

Well, Scarlet’s arch is sorely missing on both aspects. Think about it.

It could have been a better story, and it could have had better pacing. What it really needed was something to tie it together so we got a feeling through the first third (before Scarlet showed up) of it actually being part of the same story instead of separate pieces.

Of course, I could write a thousand words on how it could have been handled better even without changing the writing. That’s not the issue – I’m sure roughly half the forumgoers could do that intelligently and without resorting to personal attacks on the writers, derogatory comments about the character of the company, or various other detraction from the actual point:

The first season of the Living Story was only a qualified success, and not a project which leave many players anything other than skeptical of what’s coming next. Either in terms of story plot, or mechanics involved, everywhere there’s either derision at worst or at best the sentiment of “please let the next run do better”.

webtoehobbit.4201:

I love this thread Konig mainly because you have pointed out the main reason I hate this game currently.

All if not most of the “lore” we got about Scarlet’s motives is dependent on the player base speculation, it’s not about fact. Look at Guild Wars 1, Prophecies, in that story we learned exactly why the Lich did what he did, and then later in Nightfall we got some more depth to it learning that Abbadon was behind that whole thing. But still, we got an open and close story in Prophecies alone. Yet here we are with Scarlet, big ol’ unfinished story a year in the making and all we have to go off of is…. speculation and assumptions.

I am totally with Konig here, until they definitively mention in game some things about Scarlet, you can’t just assume that what you “think” happened is lore, cause it’s not, this is not how the game can continue lore wise. ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.

I hate to break this to you, but…

Prophecies was a stand-alone game, one game, entire story, Bob’s your uncle.

The Living Story, at the rate of a known dragon every other year, will take at least ten years to complete. If it completes. So Anet has to stretch this stuff out a bit so we don’t notice the filler as much.

To quote claymation Burgess Meredith, ‘Save some of that for the sequel!’ Well, Anet is. With Season 2 looking like Sinister Triad, White Mantle, and Jungle Dragons, Oh My, we finally will be getting some answers over the next year.

Finally got time again, time to respond to posts one and all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

I think this was simply a case of Scarlet’s split personality. As you may have noticed, her voice changed from our initial encounter with her (later taters!) to the Marionette test, where she is suddenly way more serious. I think she was arguing with herself. And in that respect, it would make sense.

One thing that I found very odd, was how the npc’s basically all confirm how Scarlet wanted to awaken an elder dragon… but they don’t explain why. Why would you want to do that? It doesn’t sound logical, even for someone as crazy as Scarlet, to want to awaken an Elder Dragon. That is why I’m having difficulty with accepting that was her goal all along.

I don’t see Scarlet going from playful to more serious being a case of split personality. I see that more as a lightened character development – while she’s unquestionably undefeated, she is far more playful, joking, and self-secure. She holds no worries or fears. Then she’s given her first defeat… she’s just as playful in Twilight Assault, but because she isn’t there. Now fast forward, Tower of Nightmares fell, at Marionette and in the end she’s far more serious because she’s being pushed back a lot more than she thought it was ever possible. She no longer has the luxury of being lax and playful. And she’s about to go with her biggest plan: assaulting one of the strongest city.

To your second paragraph: I think they don’t try to explain it because they openly admit they don’t know. When I read Taimi and the PC’s lines in the Aftermath instance, that’s what I get. “This is what she wanted, but we don’t know why she did.” And others just go “she’s crazy, she doesn’t need a reason.” Because they don’t understand crazy.

ElysianEternity.6215:

As for whether Scarlet intended one dragon or more – seems like it was supposed to lead to Mordremoth (see: the datamined reddit stuff floating around) but then Anet took a turn with the story midway and changed it and now it could lead to Mordremoth and and whatever other dragon they want to, tho the thumpers in the north could be a hint to Jormag.

To me, the datamined stuff never led to Mordremoth being the end-goal of Scarlet. No more than what we presently got, at least. It was just the last she did was wake up Mordremoth.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

A dragon knows everything its minions know. The dream is a shared consciousness between all sylvari. While it’s not necessarily a hive mind to control all sylvari, information is shared in someway that’s not quite clear yet.

The dream behaves kind of like what we already know of dragons.

No no no. Dragon’s knowledge of their minions is hive mind. This is shown in Edge of Destiny and explained in a now-gone Guild Wars 2 Guru post by Stephane Lo Presti who was posting for Jeff Grubb – images of post can be found in the links here. As stated by Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, the Dream of Dreams is NOT a hive mind. At all. The two are completely different.

And while yes, dragons know what their minions know, and indeed I overlooked this in my post (I concede that point), there is still the fact that you have ancient creatures capable of understanding modern technology. There’s a difference between knowing “the dredge have sonic technology” and knowing how to use said sonic technology to locate ley lines. So it is still a questionable aspect to me. Plus, this requires Scarlet to have been corrupted by Mordremoth – but until the end, she doesn’t sound corrupted in the least (heck, even then her “sounding corrupted” is questionable!).

Plus, and far more importantly, why would Mordremoth if it truly were the entity work with such a round-about method? Jormag awoke by Drakkar taking magic from the Sons of Svanir; Primordus was supposed to awake by the Great Destroyer as it simultaneously wiped out as much life as it could. So why would Mordremoth go about waking up by building these alliances and technological alterations to attack a city to drill into the ley lines?

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Knowing what we know about Scarlet’s plans, she wanted to be free from her destiny, whatever that was, but didnt agree with either side, the pale tree or the nightmare court. Why or how would a dragon do that in the first place, even if the pale tree was the dragon’s champion and the dragon reclaimed it? The last thing a dragon would do is free its minions.

So the voice in Scarlet’s head must’ve been telling her to wake the dragon, because waking the dragon seems to be the complete opposite of her original goal.

You seem to be assuming sylvari are dragon minions… Your conclusion only works with such a presumption being accurate. And there’s still 0 hard evidence to support that hypothesis, regardless of how much you and others want it to be so.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Then theres the words of the pale tree in the short story. “By attempting to understand the forces that make us, you will unleash them.” Maybe the pale tree was talking about the sylvari when it said us, and then Scarlet ended up unleashing a dragon. The pale tree cut off Scarlet from the dream to avoid Scarlet directly corrupting the dream. I don’t see anything else the words could mean at this point.

It could have meant the Mists which is the origin of all things. It could mean the laws of reality and/or magic, which is what allows Tyrians to exist (especially sylvari with the latter). It can mean a dozen plus things. This is the main issue I was trying to point out in the OP – people are making presumptions over what they want, rather than what’s possible.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

The real curious thing here is that asura gates, which are based on dragon energy, can cut a sylvari off from the dream, just for a second or two, but we know trying to corrupt a sylvari just kills them. So synthesized dragon energy can disrupt the dream, and actual dragon energy kills the sylvari, while that doesnt prove or disprove the sylvari being dragon minions, it’s a curiosity and will probably end up being a plot point at some point.

Asura gates were powered by Primordus while it was dormant. Dragon energy is the corruptive magic of Elder Dragons, otherwise all magic would be counted as dragon energy because all magic has over the cycles been consumed and released by the Elder Dragons – when the Elder Dragons are dormant, the magic they release are not corruptive thus not dragon energy.

And even then, modern asura gates are not powered by an Elder Dragon anymore.

Aethelbert.1497:

Scarlet could have promised them protection when Dragon comes, power to crush their enemies and et cetera.

We were told what Scarlet promised them: dredge technology.

Uruz Six.6594:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think it’s one of two possibilities. First possibility is Lazarus, the second is the Inquest.

Well, if the bandits are outed as White Mantle stooges, we take the Nightmare as Lazarus’s influence via the Dream, we take what you posted below, and then we take the Sinister Triad alliance, then the answer might just be ‘Why not both?’

Indeed, why not both. That was actually a hidden idea I was getting to. But as I said before, my personal theory is not the ultimate point of the thread – it was merely a side-thought.

Xenophanes.8360:

For the next part of the theory, I think the main thing to take into account is that the characters that are conversing, the B-iconics specifically, are not omniscient narrators. Therefore, their thoughts on the events are personal as well, not factual. These thoughts can be as speculative as our own and fulfill the function of these characters being the vessel for the players, since our own player character lacks a voice in most of these things.

I’m actually pretty sure that the B-iconics aren’t even completely aware of Mordremoth, let alone his name. This is evidenced in their conversation in the Dead End Bar with them listing off possibilities with only the dragons in their immediate knowledge being mentioned.

You are correct. They are not omnipotent. However, we’re hearing the words of the Second-in-Command of the Pact and slayer of Zhaitan, as well as an asura genius (even for her own age) who had been studying Scarlet for who-knows-how-long and is an expert (more or less) on her. Would you really discount two experts in the field claiming they don’t know what they’re talking about so easily? I wouldn’t.

Sure, they may not know Mordremoth’s name, and the other biconics certainly are clueless about the sixth Elder Dragon until Taimi and the PC clued them in, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be right about Scarlet’s goals. or the effect Scarlet’s actions had.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Unless the dragon painting that accompanied the journal about the entity was a giant red herring, I’d keep my hopes concerning good old Laz’ being the entity low…unless…
…Lazarus got corrupted by Mordremoth! (Plot-twist!)

There was more in the lair than just the journal and dragon motif, however. There was the marionette and drill schematics, things related to the Tower of Nightmares and the Fervid Censor spores, and of course the map of probes.

Why must the dragon motif be related solely to the journal and not anything else in the lair or just Scarlet in general (e.g., steps in her goal)?

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There are two thumpers right beside Divnity’s Reach on the map from the Breachmaker, which weren’t in game (either because the takeout of low level zones or they are at a position which we cannot reach).

All theories lack if they do not take Jennah in account. The very first target of our villain. Not just the watchwork knights. She wanted to kidnap the queen (remember Logan moaning that he wasn’t informed).

Scarlet’s actions during Queen’s Jubilee content was done on a whim, not part of her grand master plan. It just happened to also give her a source of shock troops (Twisted Watchworks).

SkeletalHorses.2108:

Jormag isn’t the only dragon who did the ‘mental stuff’.

If you go back to the events of the personal story, during the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan at the Artesian Waters […]

I’m also a bit confused by your statement that no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion. If you mean it by the elements and the resulting creatures, then yes, indeed they don’t. If by “fashion” you mean the methods they employ to corrupt things and beings, it’s a bit arguable. Jormag corrupted through his minions. Zhaitan raised hundreds of undead to do his bidding. Kralkatorrik can seemingly corrupt with his very breath. We’ve yet to see Mordremoth’s, DSD’s, and Primordius’ since they hardly have any presence in the current observable world. But if you analyze the ones that we do see, on a basic level, it’s pretty much the same. The very essence of the dragons (Draconic Energy?)—their presence, alone, can corrupt everything they touch. Coming in direct contact with the Sanguinary Blade drove Steag Frostbeard insane, just like that relic Kellach recovered from the Ruins of Orr corrupted him and drove him crazy.

Unless I completely misunderstood what you meant by that statement, then it would be nice if you could clarify it some more.

Firstly, mind games != mental corruption. The latter is what I meant. Jormag and his champions are all about doing direct mind alterations (see in Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn tries to mesmerize Zojja and Snaff). While a lot of Risen are mesmers, they’re more using the illusions than doing telepathy – which fits into the whole “risen are liars and use mind games to demoralize”. Guess I wasn’t clear on that.

As for no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion, I mean how they themselves corrupt – it’s known that, indirectly, all Elder Dragons can corrupt equally. Cases like Kellach and the Sanguinary Blade are such “indirect corruption” cases.

Primordus corrupts earth and lava by forming destroyers slowly over time in vats of lava. Jormag convinces individuals to join his side rather than using corruption to enslave like the others (whether he uses promises of power or other things like fascination ala EoD). Zhaitan corrupts only corpses. Kralkatorrik corrupts the physical things (water was more or less ignored by the Dragonbrand’s corruption) with his breath, and even his minions seem to corrupt via physical touch.

But indirectly? We know Primordus can corrupt living beings (an interview); we know that Jormag can corrupt via physical contact (Sanguinary Blade); we know Zhaitan can corrupt land (Orr), plants (Sparkfly), and living beings (Kellach/Sparkfly); and we know that Kralkatorrik can corrupt mentally (Edge of Destiny). But they don’t do this themselves, this isn’t how they seem to… prefer, for lack of a better word, corrupting.

Yes, dragon energy’s mere presence corrupts – that is, after all, what dragon energy is. But how dragon energy is used directly by the Elder Dragons and their minions varies.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ElysianEternity.6215:

As for whether Scarlet intended one dragon or more – seems like it was supposed to lead to Mordremoth (see: the datamined reddit stuff floating around) but then Anet took a turn with the story midway and changed it and now it could lead to Mordremoth and and whatever other dragon they want to, tho the thumpers in the north could be a hint to Jormag.

To me, the datamined stuff never led to Mordremoth being the end-goal of Scarlet. No more than what we presently got, at least. It was just the last she did was wake up Mordremoth.

Emphasis on seems.
The datamined dialogue on reddit hints to Scarlet revealing Mord’s name. Then there’s this bit by Braham and Taimi.

Taimi What do you know about Mordremoth?
Braham I know it’s connected to the jungle.
Taimi It’ll be a serious threat to everyone now that it’s awake.
Taimi And its corruption will spread.
Braham Hm. All the more reason to put it down.

One one hand, yes dragon corruption spreads that’s what it naturally does. On the other hand it could also mean that something/someone already was corrupted by Mord. That could have been Scarlet because past Jory’s cut-out death apparently everything went the same as in our version which again would explain Scarlet’s weird looks in the cutscene.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ElysianEternity.6215:

Unless the dragon painting that accompanied the journal about the entity was a giant red herring, I’d keep my hopes concerning good old Laz’ being the entity low…unless…
…Lazarus got corrupted by Mordremoth! (Plot-twist!)

There was more in the lair than just the journal and dragon motif, however. There was the marionette and drill schematics, things related to the Tower of Nightmares and the Fervid Censor spores, and of course the map of probes.

Why must the dragon motif be related solely to the journal and not anything else in the lair or just Scarlet in general (e.g., steps in her goal)?

On one hand we had parts of her plans (mini probe, plans for the drill, alliance sheet and so on). But! We also had drawings in her lair. Remember the crudely drawn stuff in black and red that all seemed to link to her nightmares and her vision?
So why shouldn’t a huge drawing of a dragon relate to the other things she drew?
And what would be the point of doodling a dragon to the ceiling if it was a step towards her goal rather than something done in an episode of lunacy or whatever?

-

There’s also another interesting thing in the comment section of the reddit thread which both points to Mord not being her endgame and yet back to multiple dragons.
This bit by that_shaman in the comment section.

wait, did scarlet tell them about mordremoth or how did they get the name?
permalink
[–]that_shamanFlame Legion Cartographer[S] 6 points 2 days ago
Really no clue at all, she never mentions what she exactly was doing, only that it had to do with dragons being the new rulers of Tyria. Those are the lines that got leaked by the way, that’s why people knew about it being Mordremoth. So it’s quite random that the NPCs know the name of the dragon (or that it even that was a dragon)

Was the entity a dragon (champion)? Why would it support the other dragons ruling then? Or was it something else? Why would it want the dragons to rule if it took over Scarlet’s mind? How does ‘dragons’ ruling fit with bowing to a single new master which we got now? Could it still all link together? Could it really be Laz’ wanting the dragons to rule solely to get his revenge on all of Tyria? Keeping in mind that this was an alternate ending and we don’t know yet how much of it still is canon, this still leaves some good room for speculation.

Wow I’m sensing a lot of hostility among some off you guys aha, these are just theories guys. Fair enough that some are hinted at more than othes, and some have more proof than others, but until Anet confirms them, they are nothing more than theories and although one might be more likely than the other, they are all equal (imo)

I say this cause i hate it when someone goes through all the effort to put up a theory like this, and someone else tells him they’re wrong and to insert profanity here

That said and done, I like your theory konig, about there being someone else who wants to use the ED and therefor manipulated Scarlet into waking them, but what you might have briefly not thought about, cause I’m sure you know, is that ingame, we don’t know about mordremoth. not his name, and i don’t think his existance either. And we ourselves shouldn’t have either but we do because of the initial “teeth of mordremoth” at the COE. So in my opinion that’s why the players and taime mention ED’s plural, because they don’t know which one she’s targeting and don’t know either there are more than they currently know off.

Just my take on it. I’d love to see it happen though, your theory. But unfortunately experience learns me that your, and the community’s in general, theories are waymore exciting than what Anet actually comes up with. The fate of a lore and storycrafter i guess ^^

Internet went out on me last night so I didn’t get to finish going through the thread….

Stooperdale.3560:

We mainly know about the entity giving nightmares to Scarlet through her journal. The journal calls these “whispers from the forest” and that’s the only clue we really have about this entity. I can’t think of much else that is going to whisper to Scarlet from the forest, that is a separate from Dream and Nightmare, than the Forest Dragon.

However, Scarlet could have been within Caledon Forest or Metrica Province when writing that, especially with the Mender mention, so… doesn’t really count for much. And certainly doesn’t serve as a strong hint to the “jungle dragon” (not forest dragon, jungle dragon).

Stooperdale.3560:

For all the talk about Scarlet awakening dragons plural she does talk about Tyria bowing to a singular new master. I think Scarlet’s dialogue is more relevant that Tiami’s speculation.

True, but think:

She’s saying this as she’s dying. Meaning she knows her plan is incomplete. So it may be that she’s either 1) referring to the entity, and that the entity’s plan is not complete, or 2) referring to the fact that she herself will no longer be there to stop Mordremoth and the Elder Dragon will rise without anyone being any the wiser, and will thus be able to corrupt the world with more ease than the others.

Stooperdale.3560:

If the Mursaat are out there with the technology to hide then why don’t they just hide again? This seems exactly the wrong time to stop hiding from elder dragons. If the Inquest have taken the Mursaat magitech from Arah then I still don’t see what they have go gain from stirring the Dragons up. All they need to do is create their secret havens and continue all their other plans for world Domination.

The thought process is that they’re trying to speed up the waking process since the cycle had already began, so that they go to sleep sooner and they have to wait less time.

Why would the mursaat wait so long to return (returning shortly before GW1)? Who knows. Even outside of this theory, that’s an oddity.

Shiren.9532:

Does Scarlet seem like the kind of person to care about how the world views her to get what she wants?

Canach at least thinks she is. And I was taking his lines as my basis.

Then there’s the confirmed fact by Scott McGough that Scarlet is narcissistic and egotistical. These kinds of people want to be praised by others, they want attention.

So yes, Scarlet would be the kind of person to care about how others view her.

Fafnir.5124:

Her ultimate goal was to die so she succeeded. Pale tree only one who knew what was happening in that head of hers thanked us afterwards. Though she could be lying.

I don’t think Scarlet wanted to die. If she did, there’d be oh so many easier ways to go about it.

Like walking in the open down Divinity’s Reach.

jinx.2813:

This is just a shot in the dark but could the Entity we’re talking about be the ‘Mysterious Entity’ we saw at Thaumanova,another intersection of the ley lines?

You refer to the Thaumanova Anomaly, which seems to be – I believe – chaos magic mixing in with the Mists (or at least, a dev said the fractal would show this but we never really see anything that truly screams such except maybe the portals which is rather lame).

Shiren.9532:

Why Scarlet? Why not use the machine on someone else if he is Inquest?

I cannot find it now, but I recall reading/hearing that he did use others first, other students of his, who did not survive.

ElysianEternity.6215:

One one hand, yes dragon corruption spreads that’s what it naturally does. On the other hand it could also mean that something/someone already was corrupted by Mord. That could have been Scarlet because past Jory’s cut-out death apparently everything went the same as in our version which again would explain Scarlet’s weird looks in the cutscene.

It could also refer to Crucible of Eternity, the Nightmare, Wychmire Swamp, the poisonous creature in Thaumanova, or even something that was originally intended to be added with the Aftermath update.

Lots of possibilities still.

ElysianEternity.6215:

On one hand we had parts of her plans (mini probe, plans for the drill, alliance sheet and so on). But! We also had drawings in her lair. Remember the crudely drawn stuff in black and red that all seemed to link to her nightmares and her vision?
So why shouldn’t a huge drawing of a dragon relate to the other things she drew?
And what would be the point of doodling a dragon to the ceiling if it was a step towards her goal rather than something done in an episode of lunacy or whatever?

The drawings on the pieces of paper look far more frantic than the cave painting, which is styled in a way similar to other cave paintings (particularly those attributed to the grawl and ogres). Kind of a vast difference, I would think. A lot more effort went into the dragon than the frantic “scratch drawings” (as I call that style) of the palm tree entrapped by red thorns.

ElysianEternity.6215:

There’s also another interesting thing in the comment section of the reddit thread which both points to Mord not being her endgame and yet back to multiple dragons.
This bit by that_shaman in the comment section.

-snip-

Was the entity a dragon (champion)? Why would it support the other dragons ruling then? Or was it something else? Why would it want the dragons to rule if it took over Scarlet’s mind? How does ‘dragons’ ruling fit with bowing to a single new master which we got now? Could it still all link together? Could it really be Laz’ wanting the dragons to rule solely to get his revenge on all of Tyria? Keeping in mind that this was an alternate ending and we don’t know yet how much of it still is canon, this still leaves some good room for speculation.

I would take everything and anything from the dat with as much grains of salt as I would take concept art, Utopia, or even Arachnia. Until we get hints in-game to imply its existence, take it as non-existing.

Angelwood.7652:

That said and done, I like your theory konig, about there being someone else who wants to use the ED and therefor manipulated Scarlet into waking them, but what you might have briefly not thought about, cause I’m sure you know, is that ingame, we don’t know about mordremoth. not his name, and i don’t think his existance either. And we ourselves shouldn’t have either but we do because of the initial “teeth of mordremoth” at the COE. So in my opinion that’s why the players and taime mention ED’s plural, because they don’t know which one she’s targeting and don’t know either there are more than they currently know off.

The Priory and Inquest (and by extension, the Order of Whispers (spies in the Priory are amongst the researchers who mention six Elder Dragons) and Pact (both Priory and Whispers would share this much, I’m sure), possibly Vigil (by extension of the Pact knowing)) knows of six Elder Dragons being in existence from jotun stalea and dwarven texts – both having mentioned six.

Now, whether the name is known is unknown, but its existence is known – including to the PC, I would imagine, who canonically is the second-in-command at the Pact and has laid waste to the Crucible of Eternity.

@Konig des Todes

Good point with the other possibilities.

Tho the vast difference between Scarlet’s “artistic abilities” (for a lack of better terms) doesn’t quite answer the question as to why she’d draw a dragon on the ceiling of her lair as part of her plan. Her schematics and other sketches had a purpose in her plan – and anything that didn’t pointed to her past, nightmares and vision.

Tho if it happened to be a conveniently placed grawl-painting that had nothing to do with her, it’d point us back to the red-herring deal.

And the reason I found the dat peculiar is because it was patched into the client on 4th February with EoTM. So before it was taken out again, it still linked to and built up on the content of Origins of Madness.
I’m taking it with a grain of salt, but until the next season there’s no say whether the plot is still the same and they merely changed the finale or if they decided at this point to completely change the direction of the LS-plot itself. So I’m not dismissing it completely (yet).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Lazarus for two reasons: 1) The mursaat had fled the world to let the Elder Dragons ravage it before, wiping out an entire race (almost) as they did so (the Seers), and when they returned they returned portraying themselves as the Unseen Ones – as gods. They returned intending to rule, it seems. It would not be unlikely for this to happen again. 2) The Aftermath instance in The Dead End formally introduces Belinda Delaqua, whom hints at the Season 2’s direction (IMO): west, dealing with black market dealers who base themselves in Brisban Wildlands. Sounds familiar? Fort Vandal is run by bandits, and bandits are run by the White Mantle. And who runs the White Mantle? Mursaat. Thus I suspect Season 2 will be returning to GW1 lore in the form of Lazarus, and may be tied into Season 1 via being the entity.

I distinctly remember mailing you about this a while ago you brushing it off as unlikely :P

If you did then it was a long time ago – it’s not in my mailbox. And people’s opinions can change when introduced with new lore. And I can be wrong at times (gasp!).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If you did then it was a long time ago – it’s not in my mailbox. And people’s opinions can change when introduced with new lore. And I can be wrong at times (gasp!).

It was a around the time her journal came out, iirc.

And you, wrong? Pffft. That’s a rare occurrence.

All I can say Konig is, I hope you are right. There are so many open plot lines that they could use in order to tie the current world story into the past, thus pleasing two groups of people at once (those who want more on the current world, and those who want more about the past). We shall see though, still I agree it is highly unlikely (IMO) that Mordremoth was her master.

Well to be honest I would have felt exactly the same if it werent for everything that happened before. I was always thinking : in this release we will finally get the answer! But it just didnt come. At this point I just understand that we shouldnt take everything an NPC says as a hint. We have done this for the past year. On the

This has to do with the poor kickoff of the living story season 1. We got so less content with promises of connection and a bigger plot, that we went searching for evidence, hence why we still remember there is a random prisoner in the Flame and Frost sequence that says these things. As the releases got better and some more dialogue got added we continued this way of speculation. On the hindsight I can say that this the wrong way to speculate. We should just consider the simple facts instead of every dialogue. A lot of dialogue is added just for the spice and flavour (too much imo)

So all I can say while I agree with you Narcemus, I doubt it. It is hihgly likely Mordremoth was the entity, wheter I like it or not…

If I look at the simple facts, it’s that we know abokittenely nothing about the entity, and that most likely it was the hidden psychopathic subconscious of Ceara’s own mind.

The “simple facts” do not lead to Mordremoth. They lead to schizophrenia. IMO at least.

The only “simple fact” that points to it being more than schizophrenia is the fact that she had knowledge about the location of the sleeping Elder Dragon. Than or she was just bat kitten crazy and decided to drill in LA and it just so happened to react in that way. There has to be something more, lol.

Did she actually have knowledge about a dragon’s location though? Mind you I haven’t followed the details as closely as the lore buffs around here but everything I encountered led me to believe Taimi/PC’s observation was accurate. In that she didn’t plan to poke a sleeping dragon but rather poke the Ley Lines and stir up all the dragons, the side effect being that it’s disturbed a still sleeping one.

Inquest knew about Mordremoth. Scarlet was part of the Inquest. Scarlet also partook in some dragon energy experiments (Thaumanova). Ergo, Scarlet knew of Mordremoth via the Inquest.

Why is this not a simpler deduction than “Mordremoth was always in Scarlet’s mind!” exactly?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Inquest knew about Mordremoth. Scarlet was part of the Inquest. Scarlet also partook in some dragon energy experiments (Thaumanova). Ergo, Scarlet knew of Mordremoth via the Inquest.

Why is this not a simpler deduction than “Mordremoth was always in Scarlet’s mind!” exactly?

Because she stepped out of the device before joining the inquest.

Though there is absolutely no proof or evidence for this whatsoever, I would very much enjoy a story where Scarlet’s possessing entity is the/an other pale tree, whether tainted or not by Mordremoth.

If anything, if another tree is sentient just as the Pale Tree herself is, then surely they must have made contact already? The Pale Tree apparently has to power to speak to the land itself (as she talks about the fall of Claw Island being told to her by the land weeping), then surely another being of the same kind must be able to make contact with her. Yet She never mentions this, at all. Not even in Malyck’s storyline. That makes me wonder why She deems this such a secret.

Whatever invaded Scarlet’s mind, the Pale Tree probably knows of it and tries to shield all Sylvari from it’s influence. It also seemed to inhabit the ‘spiritual connection’, by lack of better words, which connects all the Sylvari and the Pale Tree(s).

It could even take the “creator” mention up a level to the origin of the Pale Tree species.

At the very least, I have a hard to accepting the voices in her head being Mordremoth, there just seems to be so much going against it.

Alice.8694:

Because she stepped out of the device before joining the inquest.

She was a part of the Inquest before and after the experiment. As Ceara, it was her shenanigans with Teyo that got her kicked out of Rata Sum. After the experiment, Scarlet spent an unknown amount of time as an consultant with the Inquest afterwards.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

we know Zhaitan can corrupt land (Orr)

Even the affected kings of Orr never confirm that it was Zhaitan and they should know best.

We have lying NPC’s and some of them were in the living story.

The major problem is that the story wanted to cover a lot of problems of Tyria at once, that’s why all feels so disconnected. It helped me to figure out what’s up and put me to the point where I want to know more about some stories, which are not directly told.

Scarlet was not mad, whatever this means in this world and she wasn’t after the dragons.

Alice.8694:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Inquest knew about Mordremoth. Scarlet was part of the Inquest. Scarlet also partook in some dragon energy experiments (Thaumanova). Ergo, Scarlet knew of Mordremoth via the Inquest.

Why is this not a simpler deduction than “Mordremoth was always in Scarlet’s mind!” exactly?

Because she stepped out of the device before joining the inquest.

You need to re-read the short story then. She joined the Inquest in her final months/weeks in the Synergetic college, and then because of her antics with Teyo, she was exiled from Rata Sum and thus spent a few months with the hylek. Then Omadd found Scarlet again and brought her to go into the machine.

Evans.6347:

Though there is absolutely no proof or evidence for this whatsoever, I would very much enjoy a story where Scarlet’s possessing entity is the/an other pale tree, whether tainted or not by Mordremoth.

THere’s support for this, actually. The red vine is described very similar to the Pale Tree’s Circle. If you go into her lab, one of the drawings of her dream has the two drawings next to each other (touching) and the red lines almost line up completely, and on th eother end of the red-vine-only drawing there’s a very vague tree-like shape (though I may have just been seeing things). And there’s the Tower of Nightmares which was 1) sentient and 2) able to produce sylvari-like krait-like creatures, making it a possible third “sylvari tree”.

Honestly, “another sylvari tree” which told Scarlet the location of the cave (thus “Caithe’s secret” would be Malyck) was one of my longer-standing theories that kept around until Battle for LA. Though I don’t think it being tainted is needed – just innately hostile.

Evans.6347:

Whatever invaded Scarlet’s mind, the Pale Tree probably knows of it and tries to shield all Sylvari from it’s influence.

I do not think the mental protection mentioned is unique to sylvari. Vorpp says “our minds” – so he’s including asura minds as well for his observations. Meaning, at least from Vorpp’s studies, whatever broke in Scarlet’s mind exists in asura minds (if not other races too).

Honestly, that line makes me think of the Voices and the Rage of Koda. The Voices’ minds are always connected to the Mists, and as such can slowly go insane due to said connection – especially under stress. What if that is the protection removed? And Scarlet’s mind entered the Mists (this would fit perfectly with the “Dream of Dreams is part of the Mists” theory). And then you have a powerful ancient spellcaster (race) capable of entering the Mists (Lazarus/Mursaat if you didn’t figure it out ).

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

we know Zhaitan can corrupt land (Orr)

Even the affected kings of Orr never confirm that it was Zhaitan and they should know best.

Do you really need to be told that which your own eyes can see? Just look at Orr. Does that seem natural to you?

Besides, as shown by the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, they think that removing corruption is poisoning and defiling the land. But if you must be told, we are indeed told such:

The Last King of Orr: Zhaitan can be defeated, but that will not save Orr. The land must be cleansed of this poison. Seek the source…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
(Note: The line simply refers to killing an Elder Dragon doesn’t result in removing the dragon’s corruption – the source is the Artesian Waters, the central water that then flows elsewhere throughout Orr).

I think your theories are brilliant, but probably not true.

A wise man once said “it’s a known fact that Guild Wars 2 fans write better story than the Guild Wars 2 writing team.” I think your theories farther solidify that.

Jeff.4680:

I think your theories are brilliant, but probably not true.

A wise man once said “it’s a known fact that Guild Wars 2 fans write better story than the Guild Wars 2 writing team.” I think your theories farther solidify that.

It is also easier to think/write something, than it is to actually create it.

“The imagination is an infinite canvas, but (insert physical object) is not” whatnot.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

we know Zhaitan can corrupt land (Orr)

Even the affected kings of Orr never confirm that it was Zhaitan and they should know best.

Do you really need to be told that which your own eyes can see? Just look at Orr. Does that seem natural to you?

Besides, as shown by the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, they think that removing corruption is poisoning and defiling the land. But if you must be told, we are indeed told such:

The Last King of Orr: Zhaitan can be defeated, but that will not save Orr. The land must be cleansed of this poison. Seek the source…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
(Note: The line simply refers to killing an Elder Dragon doesn’t result in removing the dragon’s corruption – the source is the Artesian Waters, the central water that then flows elsewhere throughout Orr).

the quote from a light in the darkness is missing the rest:
The Last King of Orr: Zhaitan can be defeated, but that will not save Orr. The land must be cleansed of this poison. Seek the source…
<Character name>: Is Zhaitan the source, or is there some other poison that fouls Orr? Please, tell us!
The Last King of Orr: Seek the source…Cleanse Orr…Seek…the source…

and even king Reza doesn’t exactly say it’s Zhaitan in the source of Orr :
King Reza: Now, begin your final task: Cleanse this land. Restore what has been stolen. Confront Zhaitan’s power, and give Orr a new beginning.
It’s more a tasklist:
1. cleanse Orr
2. Restore what’s been stolen
3. confront Zhaitan
4. give a new beginning

I am not saying that Orr isn’t corrupted. I’m just saying it wasn’t Zhaitan.

It’s more that killing the dragon doesn’t stop the corruption. That’s why Treherne’s wyld hunt was the cleanse Orr and yours was to kill a dragon. The two things arn’t the same thing.

As Konig said, the source of Orr’s corruption was the Artesian Waters, since its corrupted waters flowed all throughout Orr and spread the corruption into the land. Zhaitan was the one that corrupted the Waters itself though.

Zhaitan guards the artesian waters, still no evidence that he corrupted it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Evans.6347:

Though there is absolutely no proof or evidence for this whatsoever, I would very much enjoy a story where Scarlet’s possessing entity is the/an other pale tree, whether tainted or not by Mordremoth.

THere’s support for this, actually. The red vine is described very similar to the Pale Tree’s Circle. If you go into her lab, one of the drawings of her dream has the two drawings next to each other (touching) and the red lines almost line up completely, and on th eother end of the red-vine-only drawing there’s a very vague tree-like shape (though I may have just been seeing things). And there’s the Tower of Nightmares which was 1) sentient and 2) able to produce sylvari-like krait-like creatures, making it a possible third “sylvari tree”.

Honestly, “another sylvari tree” which told Scarlet the location of the cave (thus “Caithe’s secret” would be Malyck) was one of my longer-standing theories that kept around until Battle for LA. Though I don’t think it being tainted is needed – just innately hostile.

Evans.6347:

Whatever invaded Scarlet’s mind, the Pale Tree probably knows of it and tries to shield all Sylvari from it’s influence.

I do not think the mental protection mentioned is unique to sylvari. Vorpp says “our minds” – so he’s including asura minds as well for his observations. Meaning, at least from Vorpp’s studies, whatever broke in Scarlet’s mind exists in asura minds (if not other races too).

Honestly, that line makes me think of the Voices and the Rage of Koda. The Voices’ minds are always connected to the Mists, and as such can slowly go insane due to said connection – especially under stress. What if that is the protection removed? And Scarlet’s mind entered the Mists (this would fit perfectly with the “Dream of Dreams is part of the Mists” theory). And then you have a powerful ancient spellcaster (race) capable of entering the Mists (Lazarus/Mursaat if you didn’t figure it out ).

How interesting, thank you for that

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Zhaitan guards the artesian waters, still no evidence that he corrupted it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Source_of_Orr

To cleanse Zhaitan’s corruption from Orr, we had to connect with the dying spirit of the land. After finding the source of Orr’s magic, Trahearne performed a powerful ritual while I defended him. Now, the land has a chance to recover—once the dragon is destroyed.

I returned to Fort Trinity after a hard-fought battle and found the celebrations already beginning. Only Trahearne was solemn about our victory. He knows that the purification of Orr will only last if the dragon is destroyed. Next time, my battle will be with Zhaitan itself — and I will be victorious.

— My story

Emphasis is mine.

There is a small difference between the story that we’ve been told we do and the story that we actually do. I found out that NPCs lie to us (omg), but their informations are mostly taken for sure and aren’t questioned. Worse, they are part of speculations.

Jeff.4680:

I think your theories are brilliant, but probably not true.

A wise man once said “it’s a known fact that Guild Wars 2 fans write better story than the Guild Wars 2 writing team.” I think your theories farther solidify that.

I whole heartedly agree. I think a lot of Konig’s ideas are well reasoned, and original… but ultimately a lot better thought out than the average GW story tends to be.

I really wish it was true, but it seems too good to be true. The writing simply isn’t this good or clever.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

There is a small difference between the story that we’ve been told we do and the story that we actually do. I found out that NPCs lie to us (omg), but their informations are mostly taken for sure and aren’t questioned. Worse, they are part of speculations.

— My story

I’m guessing you can’t trust your own character’s words on the matter?

Better yet… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Against_the_Corruption

Trahearne: I have created a ritual that might cleanse the dragon’s corruption. If it succeeds, this mission could be a turning point in the war.

Trahearne made that ritual to cleanse dragon corruption. He used that same ritual to cleanse the Artesian Waters.

So… Is Trahearne lying to us, or is Zhaitan house sitting the Artesian Waters for another Elder Dragon? Since you said he didn’t corrupt it.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

I am not saying that Orr isn’t corrupted. I’m just saying it wasn’t Zhaitan.

Uh huh. Right. That explains why risen are defending the corruption. It explains this as well:

Trahearne: The corruption is gone from this chamber. It will take time to spread throughout Orr…assuming we can destroy the dragon.

To cleanse Zhaitan’s corruption from Orr, we had to connect with the dying spirit of the land. After finding the source of Orr’s magic, Trahearne performed a powerful ritual while I defended him. Now, the land has a chance to recover—once the dragon is destroyed. (from the My Story journal)

And then from Against the Corruption:
Trahearne: I have created a ritual that might cleanse the dragon’s corruption. If it succeeds, this mission could be a turning point in the war.

Trahearne and I led a mission into Orr’s Royal Tombs in an attempt to cast the ritual that will cleanse the land of Zhaitan’s corruption. We got results, but the results didn’t last. We realized we needed to cast the ritual in a different location known as the Source of Orr, and so we set out to find this location (also from the My Story tab)

So yes, the corruption was Zhaitan’s – Trahearne has been studying ZHaitan’s corruption all his life (all 23 years), so I would expect him to be telling the truth and not be wrong here. Not every NPC lies, speculates, or is wrong you know. And King Reza’s lines was just, as Rainbow Spirit said, stating that killing the Elder Dragon doesn’t end the corruption. It’s the same explanation given to why the risen don’t just drop dead instantly – why we still see them even in Arah explorable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Last King of Orr: Zhaitan can be defeated, but that will not save Orr. The land must be cleansed of this poison. Seek the source…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
(Note: The line simply refers to killing an Elder Dragon doesn’t result in removing the dragon’s corruption – the source is the Artesian Waters, the central water that then flows elsewhere throughout Orr).

Course, even after the waters had been cleansed, it may take years to decades or more for the waters to fully run through all of Orr (and the immediate ocean around) to wash out the corruption.

Walhalla.5473:

Ok to Lazarus. Him being involved, well there is a low chance but it could have happened. Lazarus has more than enough reasons to throw the world into chaos. Humans are respnsible for the nearly extincion of his race. ( He is the only living Mursaat we know of ) and the last aspect he took was corrupted ( work of humans and an asura ) Also this were the last words from Lazarus before he vanished: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!” I think he doesn’t see the difference between the races now, all are vermin that have to suffer from the actions in GW1.

It’s interesting to note on this, in fact, that in Scarlet’s lab there’s a scribbling about humans always “getting in the way”. However, we have no knowledge prior to the Jubilee of humans specifically having ever done anything to inconvenience Scarlet.

If Lazarus was influencing Scarlet’s mind, is it possible that this note came from Lazarus rather than Scarlet? (Although it is worth restating that the Jubilee was a target of opportunity, not the primary target.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course it can, we did it before. Well, we had it done to us before. (Prophecies, Vizier Khilbron’s method of dealing with the White Mantle and Mursaat in the way? Sic us on them. We do his work for him.)

Ironically, though, you can turn that around – Glint was the puppetmaster through the whole Prophecies, but was her real objective to arrange for the Door of Komalie to be properly sealed, or was she using Abaddon to settle a grudge with the mursaat and closing the Door of Komalie was just a requirement of minimising the collateral damage?

draxynnic.3719:

It’s interesting to note on this, in fact, that in Scarlet’s lab there’s a scribbling about humans always “getting in the way”. However, we have no knowledge prior to the Jubilee of humans specifically having ever done anything to inconvenience Scarlet.

If Lazarus was influencing Scarlet’s mind, is it possible that this note came from Lazarus rather than Scarlet? (Although it is worth restating that the Jubilee was a target of opportunity, not the primary target.)

Good point to make. There’s really nothing out there except arguably Dhuum whom had humans foiling any plans beyond Lazarus that could still be alive. Not only for when Lazarus swore vengeance, but also with the War in Kryta.

Well, except for the “mysterious stranger” who commissioned the creation of R.O.X., N.O.X., and P.O.X. by Zinn.

draxynnic.3719:

Ironically, though, you can turn that around – Glint was the puppetmaster through the whole Prophecies, but was her real objective to arrange for the Door of Komalie to be properly sealed, or was she using Abaddon to settle a grudge with the mursaat and closing the Door of Komalie was just a requirement of minimising the collateral damage?

Well Glint does confess that the titans caused more damage than she thought they would.

draxynnic.3719:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course it can, we did it before. Well, we had it done to us before. (Prophecies, Vizier Khilbron’s method of dealing with the White Mantle and Mursaat in the way? Sic us on them. We do his work for him.)

Ironically, though, you can turn that around – Glint was the puppetmaster through the whole Prophecies, but was her real objective to arrange for the Door of Komalie to be properly sealed, or was she using Abaddon to settle a grudge with the mursaat and closing the Door of Komalie was just a requirement of minimising the collateral damage?

Impossible to say, since the one who could tell us is sort of destroyed.

Haven’t read all the posts, but are you still speculating if it is Mordremoth or not? While we do not know Scarlet’s true ‘end game’, aside from waking up the Dragon I believe it has been confirmed that it is Mordremoth, by Arenanet. Woodenpotatoes and Mattvisual also said on their podcast a few weeks ago (when the patch hit) that they have been told weeks before that by ANet that they were going to reveal another Dragon, specifically Mordremoth.