Guild Wars 2

The more I learn about Sylvari and the more I see Sylvari characters, the more I think that they pretty much just make the game’s story suffer.

They’re a young race of people who have a strong tendency to learn faster than anyone due to their giant shared, but not truly shared racial conscious.

Despite humans losing their god, they essentially have their own with the Pale Tree, who is pretty much a demi-god (if not a god outright, as seems implied by the Scarlet short story).

Immune to magics of the series main antagonist (dragons).

So far have one character who is the games main good guy, and another who is the games main villain (that isnt a dragon)

Well loved or at least tolerated by all the races with rather little explanation for it

The one member of destiny’s edge who can’t really be said to be at fault for their breaking up, and who the other 4 all still respect.

Makers and users of pretty much the series most powerful weapon (that we know of).

I mean. So much about them just screams “mary sue”. They’re just so perfect in just about everyway, with no real flaws to speak of. Its like they were just put in the setting for everyone else to love. To be more amazing than anyone else. I really expect for us to get a short story where they outfight a Norn, because they already have outsmarted the Asura, out-dietied the humans, and out-unified the Charr (heck, apparently Traeherne is the series best general too, so take that Smoldur the Unflinching).

Don’t blame the Sylvari. Blame the LS writers’ inability to move past teenage girl fantasy stories and Mary Sue character tropes.

Red Jay.2516:

Don’t blame the Sylvari. Blame the LS writers’ inability to move past teenage girl fantasy stories and Mary Sue character tropes.

Well the Sylvari have at their core every thing needed to always be the character a-net needs for, well anything. They don’t even need the Asura to be there for technology since Sylvari apparently can excel at it because they have such tendency towards genius.

Yes, its the writers fault, but everything story, good or bad is their fault. The Sylvari as they are, are a bad writers dream. They have the potential to do anything better than anyone.

Again, blame the writers, not the race. Caithe for example is pretty much the most complex and fleshed-out character out of Destiny’s Edge (well, it’s hardly an achievment, considering Eir is as flat as an office paper), and she’s Sylvari. The reason PS and LS writers chose this race to fulfil their inner fantasies is because they don’t need to think of any deep back-stories, aside from “she fell from the tree and she was genius”.

Ill say again what I’ve said before.

Scarlet was a character with brilliant conception.. And pretty bad excecution. It feels like they made a FemJoker/Harley Quinn in the game, but her story makes her look somewhat descent and gives her potential as a villain.

I think if they had more effort in her, great. But otherwise the race is fine and I personally think your statement is a little extreme, but that’s just me. Look at Faolain for example. She’s a descently balanced character. Traherne didn’t end well so we won’t go into his details, but Malyk was an intresting twist. I like them |:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Ill say again what I’ve said before.

Scarlet was a character with brilliant conception.. And pretty bad excecution. It feels like they made a FemJoker/Harley Quinn in the game, but her story makes her look somewhat descent and gives her potential as a villain.

I think if they had more effort in her, great. But otherwise the race is fine and I personally think your statement is a little extreme, but that’s just me. Look at Faolain for example. She’s a descently balanced character. Traherne didn’t end well so we won’t go into his details, but Malyk was an intresting twist. I like them |:

This isn’t all about Scarlet, though she is part of it. The Sylvari at their very core encourage Mary Sue-dom. They are a race based on perfection.

“Immune to magics of the series main antagonist (dragons).”

Well… They don’t get corrupted, but die instead if a dragon tries to corrupt them… so it’s not really a valid point, no ?

PetboyJoshua.3108:

“Immune to magics of the series main antagonist (dragons).”

Well… They don’t get corrupted, but die instead if a dragon tries to corrupt them… so it’s not really a valid point, no ?

It sorta gets rid of the dragon’s primary weapon. The dragons we’ve seen in action so far, their primary means of being a threat is corrupting and raising armies from those they corrupt.

The only one who doesn’t do this, I think, is Primordius (thats the destroyer one right? I’m terrible with names).

Mary Sue seems to be an overly used phrase on these boards. Why is everything thought to be a Mary Sue? Do the people who talk and read about it know exactly what it means?

I don’t have a problem with the Sylvari. They are not perfect just because they are well spoken. We do generally meet the pleasant, clean living Sylvari who are following their wyld hunts but we do know the hedonistic Sylvari are hidden away in the Nightmare Court. In the personal story all the major Sylvari characters have character flaws. Trahearne has this “I’m a scholar, not a general” thing that is really badly portrayed and you have little sympathy when he voices his self doubts. Sieran is a reckless scientist who could be seen as a good version of nasty Scarlet. Caithe, Tegwen & co are hardly perfect as well.

I have far more problems with the Asura. Whenever anything needs to be done in game some magi-tech from the Asura turns up, solves the problem, and then vanishes again. It’s all technobabble and lazy storytelling.

Stooperdale.3560:

Mary Sue seems to be an overly used phrase on these boards. Why is everything thought to be a Mary Sue? Do the people who talk and read about it know exactly what it means?

I don’t have a problem with the Sylvari. They are not perfect just because they are well spoken. We do generally meet the pleasant, clean living Sylvari who are following their wyld hunts but we do know the hedonistic Sylvari are hidden away in the Nightmare Court. In the personal story all the major Sylvari characters have character flaws. Trahearne has this “I’m a scholar, not a general” thing that is really badly portrayed and you have little sympathy when he voices his self doubts. Sieran is a reckless scientist who could be seen as a good version of nasty Scarlet. Caithe, Tegwen & co are hardly perfect as well.

I have far more problems with the Asura. Whenever anything needs to be done in game some magi-tech from the Asura turns up, solves the problem, and then vanishes again. It’s all technobabble and lazy storytelling.

I’m quite aware what the term means.

Applying the original meaning of something perfect that’s shoehorned in and takes the story away… well they’ve certainly done this many times. Considering that GW2 is supposed to be about dragons, that they are the main and strongest weapon against them speaks droves for that. Especcially when its considered they’re only 25 years old as a race. They’ve taken the spotlight for the main story, and now are taking it as the main villain of the living story (and of course had a forced “Behind everything” plot shoved in)

Of the new meaning of something that’s just plain perfect, untarnished, very powerful, just better than everyone else… well so far the only thing anyone has on them is that Norn are individually stronger. They’re 25 years old and have spread like wildfire to all corners of Tyria and for some reason are always met with trust on the spot rather than distrust. Even the Charr are ok with them when they very obviously pose a serious threat should they ever turn on the other races, and given their tendency towards hive mind and obedience to their god head… this is a likely scenario.

They sylvari are, indeed, one of the more poorly-written races in GW2. Since the parts of the story that do not really make sense have already been mentioned, all I will say is that, in my personal opinion, the writers have allowed their view towards the sylvari as their children , their personal, unique creations, to influence the way they treat them in the world and the story.

Totally agree. They are new to the lore, so they force them on us to give them some impact. And they are just plain wrong design.

They are in some cases more annoying than the asura.

“They’re a young race of people who have a strong tendency to learn faster than anyone due to their giant shared, but not truly shared racial conscious.”

I’ll give you that one, but they’re also very young, and many of them struggle with some aspects of common knowledge. But yes, that’ll be a problem once we start seeing sylvari reach 50+ years.

“Despite humans losing their god, they essentially have their own with the Pale Tree, who is pretty much a demi-god (if not a god outright, as seems implied by the Scarlet short story).”

The Pale Tree is not even close to the level of the human gods. Really, she can only do two things: grow sylvari, and maintain the dream. While the later does give her access to a large pool of knowledge, she’s still a tree, and can’t do anything about it without her children’s help. Compare to Balthazar, who was said to have scoured the entire Orrian peninsula, or Melandru, who turned those ashes into a verdant paradise.

“Immune to magics of the series main antagonist (dragons).”

Again: they still die. Yes, the dragon’s armies are formed by corrupting people, and if sylvari were the primary component of an army the dragons would be severely hindered. But they aren’t, they’re roughly one-fifth of the Pact. Not being able to reclaim one out of every five potential new soldier isn’t a massive setback.

“So far have one character who is the games main good guy, and another who is the games main villain (that isnt a dragon)”

The character critique or Trahearne has been done to the ground, but the important bit here is that he isn’t the game’s “main good guy.” Yes, the perception exists because he seems to be better rewarded than the PC, but it’s still the PC that is the primary protaganist, without whom the Pact never would have been founded, without whom none of Trahearne’s plans could have succeeded, and without whom Zhaitan never would’ve been destroyed. Yes, the portrayal is bad, but consider: all Trahearne really has to his name now is an unparalleled knowledge of a mostly defunct threat and a single great victory that woud have been futile without us players’ subsequent efforts above Arah.

“Well loved or at least tolerated by all the races with rather little explanation for it”

Patently false. The charr on the whole can’t stand sylvari, and tolerate them only because their imperator forces them to play nice, and the asura on a whole are either irritated by sylvari (and most races) or view them as potential lab experiments. Your mistake is taking the feeling of camaraderie that exists in the Pact, the Orders, and Lions Arch, and applying it to the whole game. Yes, most of the personal story revolves around those centers, but in four out of five of those cases sylvari are embraced simply because all hands are needed.

“The one member of destiny’s edge who can’t really be said to be at fault for their breaking up, and who the other 4 all still respect.”

Also not true. Rytlock and Logan at the very least don’t trust Caithe, due to her habit of holding secrets and attempting to manipulate others.

“Makers and users of pretty much the series most powerful weapon (that we know of).”

If you are referring to Caladbog, that is hardly the most powerful weapon. It bypassed certain immunities to harm in the powerful undead and seemed to act as a conduit to combat Zhaitan’s corruption specifically. That’s not “most powerful”, that’s “most specialized.”

Namica.2951:

It sorta gets rid of the dragon’s primary weapon. The dragons we’ve seen in action so far, their primary means of being a threat is corrupting and raising armies from those they corrupt.

The only one who doesn’t do this, I think, is Primordius (thats the destroyer one right? I’m terrible with names).

They’re still a huge threat – what with the twisting a whole strip of land, shattering the largest known mountain range in the world, and slaughtering thousands all by themselves without the need of minions.

On Primordus (no second i), yes that’s the destroyer one but in an interview with GuildMag Jeff, Ree, and Scott confirmed that Primordus can corrupt the living – by effectively entombing them in rock and lava. We just don’t (explicitly) see this happen.

There’s also the deep sea dragon and mordremoth whom may or may not corrupt living beings. And hints in the Nightmare Court imply but do not prove that Modremoth may be corrupting the NC.

Namica.2951:

Makers and users of pretty much the series most powerful weapon (that we know of).

Caladbolg is far from the most powerful weapon in the game’s series. It exemplifies the wielders traits and is an anti-lich weapon, yes, but that pales in comparison to…

The Lost Scrolls, capable of sinking an entire nation and raising its inhabitants as undead, possibly even making a lich.
Sohothin and Magdaer, capable of turning an entire nation’s inhabitants into immortal ghosts that share the personality with the weapon’s wielder.
Searing Cauldrons, capable of burning and demolishing anything from a single building or small town, to an entire nation and then some.
The Staff of the Mists, capable of bending reality itself.
The Scepter of Orr, seemingly capable of controlling the metaphysical (spirits), which possibly includes the titan army – credited as the strongest army in all of Tyria.

In context of Guild Wars 2’s main plot, yes Caladbolg is a bit overpowered since it’s basically an Anti-Zhaitan weapon, but by that argument, so is the laser and grappling hooks on The Glory of Tyria, which are similarly anti-Zhaitan weapons made by studying the Inquest’s research on the Elder Dragons’ magic.

I had a nice discussion about Sylvari in a p.m. about half a year ago. Basically, I also think Sylvari are pretty pointless and don’t really fit into the game, imo. I’ll just quote my p.m. for deeper explanation.

“Well with me, the Sylvari already had a bad start. In the very first article about GW2 in 2007 they showed a concept art of one of them. This one: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/82/Sylvari_03_concept_art.jpg

I really don’t like “fairy” races, especially not if they look like underaged girls in skimpy outfits (yes I know she has boobs, but still). Maybe I’m overprotective, but sexulization of what looks to be teens seems wrong to me.

However they got redesigned later on, and I have to say they look better now, even though slightly uncanny. I even made a Sylvari on the last beta weekend. But when I played them, I saw how completly “lawful good” they are, if you excuse my D&D term. Nothing really edgy about them. Of course there is the Nightmare Court, but you said it yourself, they are the exact opposite. A grey area does not really seem to exist for Sylvari.
If I play a Charr, I know they can be ruthless, but at the same time they would risk their own life to safe a member of their warband. If I play a Norn, I know they can be drunken trouble makers, but at the same time glady go into a fight with 10 minotaurs without any weapon, just to by a group of unarmed civilians some time. If I play a Asura I know they can be arrogant and egoistical to a point there you want to punch them in their rat faces, but at the same time their making an invention that could save thousands of lifes.
With the Sylvari I don’t see that. They are good through and through and that is boring for me. They just get along with everybody at any time. Before the game was released there was this blogpost about how the Asura made experiments on them. I thought this was a great idea for those to races to hold a grudge for another, but no, no such thing in the game, atleast not very pronounced like the human-Charr “cold-war”.
In fact it’s always the Sylvari that are the piece brokers. Hey Destiny’s Edge doesn’t work together anymore because everyone hates the other, except Caithe, everyone likes her. Hey everyone in Dougal Keene’s in the catacombs of Divinity’s Reach hates each other, except Killeen, everyone likes her. Hey the 3 Orders of Tyria wont work together, except if the Sylvari Trahearne wants them too. See the pattern?
But that’s not all. Listen to NPC gossip and try to find the ones that talk about the Sylvari. There are some, like 2 Asura in Lion’s Arch, or a Kodan in Frostgorge. Do they have anything bad to say? No, in fact everyone always praises the Sylvari. An NPC even mentions how they are the best smiths, because they make good swords without bragging about it.

Heck, this race is only 25 years old and they already have a population about the size of all those much older races and no one thinks that is suspicious? If I was a citizen of Tyria I would be afraid of the Sylvari. The NC proves they are capable of gruesome acts, and they birth rate is so much higher than anyone elses, not to forget they are fully grown and combat ready when they are born. I would probably fear the Syvlari more than any dragon.
But nope, they are universally loved by everyone on Tyria. And that does not make sense in my opinion. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not a xenophobe, even if the above paragraphe might make me look like one. It just baffles me that the races of Tyria, that distrust each other so much, all accept the Sylvari so easily and no one ever has a second thought about them. I think that’s just bad writing."

Again, they aren’t universally loved. Many members of the other four races feel uneasy around sylvari. You mentioned Caithe and Killeen, but both had problems fitting into their respective groups. Logan and Rytlock still think Caithe is shady, a ‘conniving vegetable’, and Killeen creeped Dougal out repeatedly. There are NPCs, particularly in the Black Citadel and, iirc, either Rata Sum or Metrica Province that share the opinion that they are spreading worryingly fast, often invoking the term ‘weeds’. Bottom line, the sylvari are not universally loved. ANet just put too much emphasis on them, trying to make up for their absence from GW1, and people can’t be bothered to look past the resultant deluge of good press.

I agree with the person who says Mary Sue is being overly used. A Mary Sue was originally a character written in fanfic that was unbelievably perfect because it was the author’s fantasy, for example in my mind I’m Kirk’s best friend, Spock’s apprentice, and McCoy’s lover. If I wrote that character it’d be a Mary Sue. Lately the term has been used to describe any too-perfect character, which isn’t right. If a character has no flaws, it’s a poorly written character, not a Mary Sue.

Sylvari are difficult to like because they’re new, overly chipper (Sieran), given a lot of credit for nothing (Trahearne), and their whole existence is threatening (the pale tree, telepathy, etc.) Personally I like the conflict they bring to Tyria.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Again, they aren’t universally loved. Many members of the other four races feel uneasy around sylvari. You mentioned Caithe and Killeen, but both had problems fitting into their respective groups. Logan and Rytlock still think Caithe is shady, a ‘conniving vegetable’, and Killeen creeped Dougal out repeatedly. There are NPCs, particularly in the Black Citadel and, iirc, either Rata Sum or Metrica Province that share the opinion that they are spreading worryingly fast, often invoking the term ‘weeds’. Bottom line, the sylvari are not universally loved. ANet just put too much emphasis on them, trying to make up for their absence from GW1, and people can’t be bothered to look past the resultant deluge of good press.

Killeen and Caithe are both slightly uncanny to their respective groups, but still very much liked, especially Killeen. The whole first chapters of GoA is just Dougal thinking “I shouldn’t like anyone, so I’m not said if one of them dies. Whoops too late, I like the Sylvari”. Or later, Gullik appears in his drunken rage. Who calms him down? Of course the Sylvari!
Who is the only one activley trying to get Destiny’s Edge back to working together? Of course Caithe, the Sylvari. Why? Because she is only one not hated by anyone else in the group. I’m so glad that there isn’t any Sylvari in Sea of Sorrows, it made the book sooo much better. In SoS we only have a human, Marriner tyring to get the races work together and unlike the Sylvari he has to use logic, compassion and sometimes violence to make this happen. A Sylvari would have simply known every other character personally (despite being very young) and calmy talked them into working together because he/she says so.

I spent a lot of time in the cities trying to get the most dialogs possible, so I heard a lot pro-sylvari stuff. I never came across anything negative, but if you say so, okay why not. Still that’s awfully much positive stuff and a tiny bit negativity towards them. I think it should have been the other way round. For the reasons I alreay explained, I think the Sylvari should be seen with a lot more suspicion, than they are.

Sitkaz.5463:

Personally I like the conflict they bring to Tyria.

The problem is, they don’t. There is barely anything negative about the Sylvari, especially no conflict. Or can you give me a valid source of anything ingame that alludes to this conflict?

A point about how they learn faster than anyone. All it does is bring them up to speed with the already established older races. What they learn in the Dream is fragmented and only serves to teach them the basics of the world and their proffesion. They still require standard tutelage after they “ripen”. And A-net likened what they learn in the Dream to reading about something. So all it does is replace childhood and adolescence. what it doesn’t do is allow the sylvari to excel beyond the other races in knowledge.

I don’t think the Sylvari were necessarily a bad idea. I actually think that if you trim down the concept, it’s a pretty neat storytelling device to include a brand new race eagerly exploring the world.

The problem is that the writers don’t seem to have thought through the downsides of that position. Sure, they’re curious and have strong intuition and lateral thinking, but in terms of knowledge and experience the Sylvari should be starting out at a disadvantage. That’s not to say that they could never catch up, but that there should be a challenge there. But the main Sylvari characters rarely demonstrate that. It all gets handwaved; for example, Trahearne becomes a general in a time of war with absolutely no experience and doesn’t make any major mistakes, Scarlet has conveniently studied under all the Asura colleges somehow, etc.

I like the concept of the Sylvari, and I think they could have made a strong contribution to the depth of the world of Tyria. I just wish that the writers had given them real downsides as well as real strengths, so they’d seem more balanced, instead of just excusing away their lack of experience with the world by having their stellar personal qualities make up for it. The Sylvari stories would be more interesting to me if the characters were actually noticeably impeded by what we’re told are their challenges.

For those familiar with the concept of the Informed Flaw, I think the Sylvari suffer rather badly from that and it makes them much less nuanced.

here is probly reason why no ont is truely openly worried about sylvari cause they are plants. they can be ignited fast easy have all races turn on them and with fire magic charr warmachines flamethrowers or plasmathrowers from asura shut theri gates down and then basicly torch the forest.

I like the sylvari, though not necessarily the way some of them were used. And if I’m honest, the accusation of how awful it is that they are liked by everyone and good at everything is kind of amusing. Not only is it hyperbole, but I can’t help but suspect a little “sour grapes” at the fact that for once, humanity isn’t the end-all, be-all, superspecial golden child of awesome, as they are in a huge number of settings. And I LIKE the fact that humanity isn’t like that here because I’m tired of it.

That said, I’d like to see some more sylvari-like sylvari, if you will, but at this rate I guess in terms of “fairness”, we could first use a couple more charr, norn and sylvari in the spotlight.

Xaton.1902:

here is probly reason why no ont is truely openly worried about sylvari cause they are plants. they can be ignited fast easy have all races turn on them and with fire magic charr warmachines flamethrowers or plasmathrowers from asura shut theri gates down and then basicly torch the forest.

Just because they are verdant doesn’t mean they catch fire any easier than humans do, Anet has said this. Why do you think there are sylvari blacksmiths?

Erm, have you set a living tree on fire? Or thrown wet wood on a fire? Ain’t easy.

As for the rest of this topic, I’ll bow out. I have no interest in sylvari haters topics.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Sitkaz.5463:

Personally I like the conflict they bring to Tyria.

The problem is, they don’t. There is barely anything negative about the Sylvari, especially no conflict. Or can you give me a valid source of anything ingame that alludes to this conflict?

The first thing that came to mind is Gixx (I think that’s who it is?) the leader of the priory, and his reaction to Magister Sieran. Regardless of how irresponsible she is, his reaction to her is over the top racist. A lot of people in-game and out don’t mind throwing around the gentler “salad head” term.

Sitkaz.5463:

[snip] is over the top racist. A lot of people in-game and out don’t mind throwing around the gentler “salad head” term.

They laugh it off though – because Sylvari are awesome like that. They are just really awesome at everything. Sylvari are basically aesthetically appropriate pink ponies and unicorns in the GW universe (from a recent interview: “… and I’ll see you in my Dream!”).

While the Sylvari from a biological perspective are really innovative; they suffer from a personal-fantasy-induced storyline – a story that nobody can enjoy except the author.

Basically, I agree with the OP. I think the only way to fix them would be to release an expansion where the pale tree turns into Mordremoth (or something equally as evil) – throwing the race itself into an existential crisis (issues such as procreation and the meaning of having your own identity and a real personality) and allowing to break free from their ponycornified identity.

Namica.2951:

PetboyJoshua.3108:

“Immune to magics of the series main antagonist (dragons).”

Well… They don’t get corrupted, but die instead if a dragon tries to corrupt them… so it’s not really a valid point, no ?

It sorta gets rid of the dragon’s primary weapon. The dragons we’ve seen in action so far, their primary means of being a threat is corrupting and raising armies from those they corrupt.

The only one who doesn’t do this, I think, is Primordius (thats the destroyer one right? I’m terrible with names).

They’re not immune, they just die rather than wind up corrupted into Risen/Icebrood/Branded. Though I might just be assuming that about the Branded since I don’t recall sylvari out that direction, mostly Sentinels, Vigil charr, and Ebon Vanguard.

Sitkaz.5463:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Sitkaz.5463:

Personally I like the conflict they bring to Tyria.

The problem is, they don’t. There is barely anything negative about the Sylvari, especially no conflict. Or can you give me a valid source of anything ingame that alludes to this conflict?

The first thing that came to mind is Gixx (I think that’s who it is?) the leader of the priory, and his reaction to Magister Sieran. Regardless of how irresponsible she is, his reaction to her is over the top racist. A lot of people in-game and out don’t mind throwing around the gentler “salad head” term.

Yeah I played that myself, but I don’t see racism in it, it’s more that he doesn’t like how Sieran handles things. It’s very unscholarly, to say the least. And to be honest, I totally agree with him, as a historian myself, Sieran annoyed me to no end, with her unprofessional attitude.
And don’t get me started on racial slurs, the Charr call humans “Meat”, the Asura call humans “Bookah”. That’s just how people used to be behave towards another, until political correctness was invented. That doesn’t necessarily mean they have a distrust or hate for them, even if it somewhat discriminatory. That’s still far from being a conflict, especially if you compare it to something like the Charr vs. human thing.

Namica.2951:

I’m quite aware what the term means.

Applying the original meaning of something perfect that’s shoehorned in and takes the story away…

The original meaning agreed upon, though an unsubstantiated one, was a self-insert character whose flaws only strengthen the character and reinforce their special-ness. It’s become something of a catch-all for “impossibly perfect character” anymore, and lots of people do try to apply “X Sue” to characters which don’t fit so well.

zamalek.2154:

Sitkaz.5463:

[snip] is over the top racist. A lot of people in-game and out don’t mind throwing around the gentler “salad head” term.

They laugh it off though – because Sylvari are awesome like that. They are just really awesome at everything. Sylvari are basically aesthetically appropriate pink ponies and unicorns in the GW universe (from a recent interview: “… and I’ll see you in my Dream!”).

Sylvari laugh it off not because they’re awesome, but because they don’t care as much. Most sylvari I recall meeting are task-oriented with whatever they’re up to, and as such are practically invisible as a sylvari underneath it all.

Of course, are we going to talk about the sylvari pair who went to look into the matter of the Eye of Zhaitan and one went temporarily insane? They’re not immune to dragon magic, just the corruption which threatens the other races . . . and they’re only “immune” in that they die rather than become Risen.

Compare Scarlet to Seiran, and you’ll see the difference between a poorly and a well-written character. Seiran has talents and flaws, isn’t perfect at anything and is still struggling with worldly concepts like sacrifice.

Scarlet is a cartoon supervillan.

ThiBash.5634:

Compare Scarlet to Seiran, and you’ll see the difference between a poorly and a well-written character. Seiran has talents and flaws, isn’t perfect at anything and is still struggling with worldly concepts like sacrifice.

Scarlet is a cartoon supervillan.

. . . you choose Seiran as a “well-written character”? Well, okay, I would have gone for Tybalt instead. Or Forgal. I’d even bring in Minister Caudecus. Or Ogden.

Seiran and Scarlet both have qualities which could easily represent them as members of your average “Saturday Morning cartoon characters” In fact, they could fit into My Little Pony well enough with just a change of species.

(Note, that’s not a slam against that show, but the characterization is a bit shallow to begin with over there. The writing, not so simple.)

. . . of course, Seiran can’t have any more work done to her, Scarlet can if they decide they want to. Won’t stop people from complaining though.

Seiran wasn’t a great character, but neither was Tybalt and Forgal – too limited in interaction for proper development.

But Seiran and Ceara are worlds apart. Ceara being far, far worse.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Seiran wasn’t a great character, but neither was Tybalt and Forgal – too limited in interaction for proper development.

But Seiran and Ceara are worlds apart. Ceara being far, far worse.

I find myself saying this a lot.

Ceara (or many other characters/events) REALLY needed some foreshadowing and presence before this happened.

Maybe having been put in at the first update of Frost and Fkittenomeone the players could talk with. We get to see she’s bright, proud, and wants to be self-made in a way which almost is unsettling if you think about it too hard. Then she disappears without warning and we only had a lack of information as to what happened.

Then she pops back up later, having gone around the bend like this, and we hear she went through . . . something . . . which caused her to lose her grip on sanity.

It wouldn’t stop people from criticizing it, but it could have made it easier to work with.

I don’t understand why people have an obsession with seeing progression for NPCs first hand. If it’s a new character of course she developed on her own. And if she’s a sylvari perhaps she didn’t change much since being born into Tyria.

A fall from grace is an overdone trope. A Harley Quinn is much less common.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

… The charr on the whole can’t stand sylvari, and tolerate them only because their imperator forces them to play nice,

Actually the char love the sylvari. There’s nothing better for smoking brisket and ribs.

Mr Mango.3504:

I don’t understand why people have an obsession with seeing progression for NPCs first hand. If it’s a new character of course she developed on her own.

This ^

We just met her. How much development could we even have expected?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . you choose Seiran as a “well-written character”?

I chose her as a “well-written Sylvari”. It takes the Battle for Claw Island to have Seiran realize that the world isn’t all fun and games, and that she can’t always rely on others to sacrifice themselves for her personal welfare, to clean up her mess. That’s character progress to me.

There are other characters I like more, but insofar Sylvari go, it’s only Seiran and Caithe that show any form of character development (Caithe wanting to go on a needless murder spree a bunch of times, thus showing a less noble side). The rest of the Sylvari are either super noble, or (the villans) super not noble. They have no character flaws either way though.

Mr Mango.3504:

I don’t understand why people have an obsession with seeing progression for NPCs first hand.

What annoys me most is that she outranks all Asura in intellect, and not by a small margin. Even the Skritt, when at their most intelligent, simply show a different kind of intelligence. The fact that she was a star pupil of the other races as well just adds to that. I disliked Sylvari for their perfectness before Scarlet, and then Anet went and added an even more over-the-top Sylvari.

@Mango and Dustfinger:

There’s a huge difference between depth and development. You can introduce a character who shows to have a good amount of depth within the first minute of showing. Or you can show the character without showing a hint of the personality at all. We see Scarlet’s personality. And it holds no depth… yet. THAT is her problem. She’s two dimensional of a personality.

It’s got nothing with the development – which by definition is how a character changes based on the progress of the story. So obviously she has no development yet. But depth/personality != development.

@ThiBash: Trahearne actually shows character development too, though that’s often overlooked due to the bland and monotonous voice acting he gets.

ThiBash.5634:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . you choose Seiran as a “well-written character”?

I chose her as a “well-written Sylvari”. It takes the Battle for Claw Island to have Seiran realize that the world isn’t all fun and games, and that she can’t always rely on others to sacrifice themselves for her personal welfare, to clean up her mess. That’s character progress to me.

There are other characters I like more, but insofar Sylvari go, it’s only Seiran and Caithe that show any form of character development (Caithe wanting to go on a needless murder spree a bunch of times, thus showing a less noble side). The rest of the Sylvari are either super noble, or (the villans) super not noble. They have no character flaws either way though.

I think those two and Trahearne are the only three sylvari around in the story focus for any length of time to actually get to “know” them. Which means we’re looking at bite-sized character windows already, never a good way to look at them. And with them not in the focus . . .

. . . that means the writers don’t have to spend three months trying to make Random Warden #359 into a rounded character. As a matter of fact, if they did that they’d probably be looking for another job.

Carys and Tegwen are, if you play your story choices right as a sylvari (Act with Wisdom; Priory; Trap for Eye; Vigil invasion into Cursed Shore), interacted with more than Seiran. And then there’s all the sylvari NPCs in the first 20 levels that you deal the full arc with more or less. The sylvari Crusader who gets you into the order also returns later on (iirc, in both Forging the Pact and Vigil invasion of Cursed Shore).

Side note: Carys and Tegwen=my favorite sylvari. RIP Tegwen. <3 Carys. From bubbly to serious. Best character development in the game, IMO. Just a kitten shame how out of the way you must go to witness them.

I liked them for a short moment, sadly I took the route of the White Stag. I did like the portrayal of the noble nightmare courtier, Gavin, but there really isn’t much there for development (especially since he doesn’t stick around in future story). Still, I think there could have been something there if we didn’t have to kill him, but no nightmare corruption cannot be removed so GUT EM!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Carys and Tegwen are, if you play your story choices right as a sylvari (Act with Wisdom; Priory; Trap for Eye; Vigil invasion into Cursed Shore), interacted with more than Seiran. And then there’s all the sylvari NPCs in the first 20 levels that you deal the full arc with more or less. The sylvari Crusader who gets you into the order also returns later on (iirc, in both Forging the Pact and Vigil invasion of Cursed Shore).

Side note: Carys and Tegwen=my favorite sylvari. RIP Tegwen. <3 Carys. From bubbly to serious. Best character development in the game, IMO. Just a kitten shame how out of the way you must go to witness them.

. . . okay, NOW I remember them. I had them crop up in my human’s last chapters concerning the Eye of Zhaitan. Yeah that did look decent but it also suffered from the same problem as a lot of the late Orr story. All these personal story characters popping up to take part and no guarantees you’ll know who the heck they are.

Narcemus.1348:

I liked them for a short moment, sadly I took the route of the White Stag. I did like the portrayal of the noble nightmare courtier, Gavin, but there really isn’t much there for development (especially since he doesn’t stick around in future story). Still, I think there could have been something there if we didn’t have to kill him, but no nightmare corruption cannot be removed so GUT EM!

Part of me thinks there’s a flaw in Caithe’s thinking about that, after playing my first chapter on a sylvari elementalist. Seriously, it was surprising how swift she went from almost mournful to “kill them before they do any more damage” concerning those star-crossed lovers . . .

Yeah, IMO, Gavin had lots of room to be an extremely respectably developed character if given the chance. No, instead I saw my dagger planted in my friend’s heart…

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, IMO, Gavin had lots of room to be an extremely respectably developed character if given the chance. No, instead I saw my dagger planted in my friend’s heart…

Yes, but on the other side, I really really want to stab the heck out of Quinn. So it all evens out

I’ve skimmed through the thread, giving most posts at least a passing glance, so apologies if I’m not really adding anything. I have 8 sylvari characters (one of each profession) and I’ll easily admit they can easily slide into Mary Sue territory if the writers are not careful.

On the other hand, the reason I find them quite awesome as a race is that are the perfect vessel through which one can explore what it means to be living in the world of Tyria. All the other races come with baggage that, sometimes, goes back thousands of years, with social and cultural ties that dictate their lives.

The sylvari do not have that, they only have a jumbled mass of pieced together memories, coloured heavily by emotion. They can be childlike in that they can be as naive and as cruel as kids often are, most of the time without even realising what exactly they are doing. The best part about being sylvari though? Exploration.

My first character was a sylvari ranger of the Durmand Priori, pretty much the perfect combination to explore the world of Tyria. Throughout my path to 100% map completion, from emerging from the Dream to heading into the Mists in hopes of bumping into Sieran’s spirit, I let the world of Tyria itself shape his opinions and personality.
Out of the pod, he was simply a blank slate with just an affinity for animals. but the further he got from the Pale Tree, things got darker and bloodier. At level 80, he’s a seasoned warrior that has seen enough suffering and death but never losing that child-like thirst for exploration.

In the end, the sylvari are simply a race trying to figure out who they are and where they fit in the world of Tyria… I just wish the writers did a better job at portraying that. Characters like Sieran, Gavin, Carys and Tegwen are credit to the race’s potential. Those like Trahearne and Scarlet… well, not so much, in either concept or execution.

A last note: If there is something about the Sylvari I’d like to see more, is characters that tread on the grey area between moral absolutes. We need more “noble” members of the Nightmare Court (or at least someone more subtle than the usual homicidal maniac) and more “evil” Dreamers.

I have four sylvari characters, and my main is one, and even I have issue with them.

I avoided info about GW2 for a long time, knowing Anet’s penchant for accidentally dropping spoilers too soon. So the game came and ever since I had seen screencaps of a sylvari months prior, I was taken with them. So I made a sylvari engineer, as it seems like those things should go together about as well as chocolate and mayonnaise and I figured it would bring up some interesting story stuff. There were hints of depth to the story at the very beginning.. but it never really panned out to any actual degree. Nothing came of my race/profession combo either (not really my beef here however), but I suppose charr casters also have that problem. Regardless, I kept making sylvari alts, just to play through all the stories, hungry to see them make use of the potential I saw there.
But it never came, really.

I still like my main a lot and play both him and my sylvari warrior most of the time, and I want to like the race. I really do. I love their concept.. but the execution is so lackluster. And it doesn’t help that almost every time I have to interact with a sylvari npc for more than a few minutes, I end up cringing. I’m not even going to talk about Scarlet.

It’s gotten to the point that it’s sometimes almost embarrassing to say “I like/play sylvari” because, depending on context, it can almost imply you like sloppy writing. I don’t.

I want people to be intensely suspicious of me because my character’s race is so young yet so numerous. I want them to be bad at things. I want them to have shades of grey, and depth in their stories, and for the race to stop being the center of attention in the plot just because sylvari are easy to write due to lacking long backgrounds. I want humans to be nervous around my character because they can be so off, and so childlike in an adult form. I want the Pale Tree to make mistakes, “good” sylvari to do terrible things because they want to or because that’s their only choice, and for Nightmare Court to do things that aren’t completely mind-blowingly evil. Hell, even indifferent explorers would be nice. Just.. variation, and depth. Please.

Chadramar.8156:

I like the sylvari, though not necessarily the way some of them were used. And if I’m honest, the accusation of how awful it is that they are liked by everyone and good at everything is kind of amusing. Not only is it hyperbole, but I can’t help but suspect a little “sour grapes” at the fact that for once, humanity isn’t the end-all, be-all, superspecial golden child of awesome, as they are in a huge number of settings. And I LIKE the fact that humanity isn’t like that here because I’m tired of it.

Nah. I like sylvari too, and I’m also (massively) tired of humans hogging the limelight in fantasy settings, but the way sylvari are written as consistently great at most things and not frequently disliked to any degree that actually matters isn’t very good writing. It lacks depth in a setting like Tyria. Has absolutely nothing at all to do with humans and their place in the world – they could be top dog, bottom rung of the latter, or gone entirely – sylvari writing would still be an issue.

I was hoping to see the Sylvari fulfill a purpose.

Like they were created by the world to defend itself from the dragons?
( Like how they are immune to corruption etc)

But no

One thing you’ve got to bear in mind when complaining about sylvari characters being too talented or knowledgeable is that the majority reoccurring characters are supposed to be exceptional in some way. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in the positions they’re in.

You could just as easily say it’s unrealistic and proof of bad writing that Tybalt is an excellent Iron legion engineer, Whispers archivist and field agent. Or that Captain Magnus can be capable of being both a successful sea captain and administrative leader of a major city and periodically show himself to be a great fighter as well.

If you spend any time around the Grove and Caledon Forest listening to the NPC dialogue you’ll realise there are a lot of struggling or flawed or less intelligent sylvari. But, partially because of that, they are a lot less likely to rise to the same positions of greatness and don’t feature so prominently in the storyline.

There’s also another way to redeem them storywise, without needing to retcon on how they are and how the story wanted to present them to us so far. As much as people may dislike it, in more than one fantasy game there’s been races that are on a higher tier of power, behaviour and intellect than others.

Make something bad happen to the “good” sylvari. Even going as far as to destroy the pale tree.

It will expand on the possibility of being other groves, perhaps less sentient than the Pale Tree is – it will give the childlike Sylvari a dramatic, emotional shove towards maturity once their know-it-all eternal mother is gone. It will add depths to most of their characters once they have to face the world with their own strength alone, some will turn more resolute, others will fall into doubt – but overall, it may just be the shock therapy the idylliac, all too perfect race needs to have to take their role in the war-torn Tyria. Literally ever other race has a background of loss and recovery.

Who would do such a thing? Of course not the nightmare court – they wish to “help” the Mother fall into Nightmare, not eradicate her – but options are aplenty. Dragon minions, dragons themselves fed up with the endless supply of stalwart defenders the Tree produces, or even misguided members of the other races (Such as, a xenophobic Charr leader) who deem the aforementioned evergrowing supply of possibly immortal creatures as a future cause of troubles for their own kind.