Guild Wars 2

First of all , this topic have heavy spoilers .. so don’t read if you hate spoilers

I didn’t came up with this speculation myself , but I just wanted to put all thoughts and ideas in one solid topic , because I found it very interesting twist in lore ….

At start we know that there are five elder dragons that have awaken :

Kralkatorrik : The Crystal Dragon that can turn any living thing into a crystal creature called " The Branded "

Zhaitan : The undead dragon that can turn any dead creature into undead called
" The Risen "

Jormag : the Ice dragon that can corrupt any living creature into icy
corrupted version called " The Icebrood "

Primordus : The fire dragon that can create his own minions from rock and lava and are called " The Destroyers "

Deep Sea Dragon : which we don’t have alot of information about besides
that he resides in the deep ocean , and there is some speculations that the krait are his minions or at least servants

now what if we were wrong , and there is actually six dragons not five as we thought , and this seems to be not just a wild speculation , but the Durmand Priory actually concluded this as a fact …

because there is a very interesting NPC in the Durmand Priory called "Scholar Trueclaw " , and he will say this interesting line :

“Jotun, mursaat, forgotten, seer, dwarf. Five against six. It seems so unfair. And, yet.. "

but thats not all , this particular NPC will have an extra dialogue if you are part of the order of whispers as you can say

" One must count the uncounted. "

and his reply will be

" And name the unnamed. Shh, I can’t talk long. There are eyes and ears everywhere in this place. Infiltrating the Priory has been my hardest assignment to date. "

now thats getting pretty interesting , why he said five races against six ? and what did he mean by one must count the uncounted ?

• for the full script of the NPC check this :
  http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Trueclaw

does this mean there must be a sixth dragon we didn’t count and it
should be remained unnamed …

Now there are several hints around the world that leads us to solve this
mystery by ourselves …

1- The Crucible of Eternity entrance is a hexagon , each one of them
represent one of the elder dragons … one site with fire , another with crystals , another with bones , another with Ice and another one with water …. and finally
there is a sixth site with forest and trees

2- Any Elder dragon have a way to create his own army , Three dragons
create there army by using the living (( or there body )) which are the
branded , Icebrood and the risen …. those dragons can corrupt any
uncorrupted form of life , we can see a corrupted version of each race ….
each race have a corrupted version … all but one … the sylvari … we have never seen a risen sylvari … or branded sylvari or Icebrood sylvari … that for sure raises a question …. Why ?

3- also we know that the fourth dragon doesn’t need a living creature to
create his army , instead he can create his army from the elements he have
power over , so he create his army " The Destroyers " from lave and stones ,
now who else had the power to create a race from nothing except the elements he have power over !! … yes the Sylvari

4- Now it all becomes more clear , and what strengthen this speculation is that the sylvari came into life at the same time the elder dragons awaken … Coincidence !!

5- Another interesting note , that through all our encounters with the
Nightmare Court , they keep saying that the Ventari Tablet’s teachings has deviated them from what they were truly created for , and they always look at the other sylvari as brainwashed or deluded !!

now all this hints gives us two speculations , that there is a sixth
dragon represent nature , and this dragon minion’s are the Sylvari ..

but that will also leads us to few more questions … what is the nature of the
pale tree in this … is the pale tree is the sixth dragon ? … but this
seems unlogical , what seems more logical is that the pale tree is
actually a champion of the sixth elder dragon , and has been influenced
by the Ventari and decided to betray her master and side with the mortal races …. we have a similar case happened in the Guild Wars history , as " Glint " was a champion of the elder dragon Kralkatorrik and betrayed him and sided with the mortal races ….

or we can think about it in a more twisted way , that this is actually a
part of the sixth elder dragon plot , to weaken the other elder dragons with
there fight agianst the mortal races and in the same time replenishing his own
army with more sylvari … and in the right moment he assumes control and destroy what is left of Tyria races or the elder dragons (( whoever wins ))

to be continued …

there are also small hints here and there that supports this theory but they are not as strong as
the above hints :

- At the sylvari tutorial area , you will face a tree like dragon , which have no other match in the world and its totally unique … why its related to sylvari dream ?

-The sylvari are the only race that are concerned with the elder dragons
from the first moment they were born and they take it as there purpose in life to destroy the elder dragons , and they seem to be the most race that are aware of there threat .

-The sylvari knows too much about zhaitan and his powers more than any
other race (( even the older races )) , and four of them where actually key factors in defeating zhaitan
(( Trahearne , Caithe , Tegwen , Carys ))

- The pale tree knows too much things that predates the time she was
planted in earth , she knows the full history of Orr , and she also gives us hints about how to defeat Zhaitan

- The Sylvari don’t age , and there are no sylvari childern … they are
just created !!

This topic is opened for discussion and to other speculations or hints that
can support or reject those assumptions

Very nice post you have here! It’s quite interesting, I’ll be following this topic myself. Now, I don’t really buy into 4 or 5 on their own, but the other 3 are very, very interesting to say the least.

The “one must count the uncounted” is pretty interesting, though couldn’t it be just a secret code between whisper agents with no real significance? I might be way off on that, just a question.

You’re not the first to mention this… in fact there’s another thread with over 100 replies discussing this exact theory.

Chessrook.8643:

You’re not the first to mention this… in fact there’s another thread with over 100 replies discussing this exact theory.

Wooden Potatoe’s recent video on the subject probably stirred up some new interest on the subject. Links to the threads in question would be appreciated so we can keep from talking in circles.

Onto the topic at hand, I’d to raise some counter points to see how they can be responded to.

My first point, regarding the Crucible of Eternity, remember that what NPCs ICly believe isn’t inherently true. The Inquest are ultimately after godhood through knowledge, so them treating the plant like nature of the Pale Tree as one of the Dragon’s Minions could literally just be experimentation; experimentation worthy of it’s own lab room in their facility dedicated to Elder Dragon research, but still just experimentation.

My second point once again reiterates that what NPCs ICly believe isn’t inherently true. The statement is five versus six. At the moment we have five ancient races and five dragons. OOC we don’t know which one gets the +1. Statements like this build on our knowledge as players, but commonly accepted isn’t absolute fact in a game expecting plot twists.

My final point for this post, I’ve personally seen a great deal of similarities between the dragon in the dream and Zhaiten’s draconian minions. While it shouldn’t be dismissed, we also shouldn’t take a leap of logic off a cliff when there are much simpler reasons.

That theory will probably pop out a lot until we know who the 6th dragon is. So here is my variation on the same idea.

There are a lot of similarities between elder’s dragons minions and sylvaris, and one big diference : they are free willed.

But the pale tree also produce sylvan hounds witch are not, and could control the sylvaris via two things : the wild call witch is a long quest, or just a simple order : the calling, so the sylvari are free minded but they could have not been.

Also known elder dragons transform their minions in mindless creatures that only do their biding but they can do otherwise if they so choose. They still obey their master but they keep the ability to think so they have no free will but they are not mindless either.

So all the mechanics are there for the sylvaris to be dragons minions, however the pale tree is certainly not an elder dragon (they were others seeds like the one that created her, and at least one other grown tree producing ‘sylvaris’ ).

She doesn’t seem to be a dragon champion either.

So maybe she is an accident that wasn’t suposed to happen at all. Not that the tree itself exist, but that it has it’s own personality. maybe the tree was just supposed to be a tool to spawn the minions : a plant that is a plant (funny pun by the way).

But because the seed was stolen and didn’t grow when or where it was supposed to, or maybe the plant creature that were garding it didn’t had the time to perform all the rituals, it wasn’t properly connected to the elder dragon and since there was something missing it connected with ventari tablet intead and created an identity the mother tree.

So sylvaris should have been the 6th dragon minions but weren’t, and instead of the dreams of dreams they should have been brainwashed (except there was still nothing to wash away) into doing is biding. The problem with that idea is malick, since he didn’t seem to be a minion either but maybe he was a blank slate because his pod detached before he was mature and had not been under the influence of the dragon equivalent of the dream of dreams yet.

I believe 5 against 6 weakly says 5 elder dragons against 6 elder dragons? Could ther ehave been a rebellion between the dragons and one “Friendly” Dragon is still alive but hidden it would b great as finding this dragon could prbly reveal alot about the dragons purpose and creation as tht is what intersts me the most " Who Created the dragons" Clearly they try to kill everything but couldnt it be tht they are something like the Apocalypse and we have to prevent it from happening ? Maybe it has happend Long before and there were other races who were to fight them but failed

@Red Actually, 5 vs 6 refers the five races who survived the last dragon cycle and the number of dragons they faced according to jotun stela writings.
The races: dwarves, seers, mursaat, jotun, and forgotten
The EDs (according to what we currently know): Primordus, Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and 2 currently unnamed dragons (one being the DSD and the other may or may not still exist).

We do not have any information that would indicate any of the Elder Dragons being non-hostile to other life forms.

One of my ideas tho is tht the one “That may ot may not exist” is so to sa the king of the dragons and the 5 Elder Dragons we know exist for sure are his minions lol

Very interesting post. Eager to see where this leads..

I’d lean to “yes, there is a sixth”, simply as it leads to the evolution of expansions. If I gather the business model, ArenaNet will likely unleash an expansion for each dragon’s storyline.

The “count the uncounted” thing is nothing special. It’s just an OoW code phrase, to verb the unadjectived. If you pay attention to other conversations with OoW agents they all follow the same format.

TheHiTmAn.4738:

- At the sylvari tutorial area , you will face a tree like dragon , which have no other match in the world and its totally unique … why its related to sylvari dream ?

[…]

-The sylvari knows too much about zhaitan and his powers more than any
other race (( even the older races )) , and four of them where actually key factors in defeating zhaitan
(( Trahearne , Caithe , Tegwen , Carys ))

- The pale tree knows too much things that predates the time she was
planted in earth , she knows the full history of Orr , and she also gives us hints about how to defeat Zhaitan

- The Sylvari don’t age , and there are no sylvari childern … they are
just created !!

• It’s a representation of Zhaitan
• That’s because the sylvari have been proactively studying Zhaitan. Furthermore, we don’t know how much the elder races knew about the Elder Dragons, due to little knowledge from that time still being around. Considering they were able to make a dragon champion gain free will (Glint), they probably knew a lot. I heard that the forgotten – who gave Glint free will – also had objects immune to dragon corruption.
• As said, the sylvari have been proactively studying Zhaitan – this includes studying Orr. The Pale Tree is able to study the Dream of Dreams which holds all of the memories of the sylvari. Nothing that ED-related here.
• Nothing says the ED minions don’t age either, or that corrupted living beings cannot have children (in fact, Risen Spiders are often seen laying eggs implying that they can have offspring).

Benjamin Mahir.7986:

My second point once again reiterates that what NPCs ICly believe isn’t inherently true. The statement is five versus six. At the moment we have five ancient races and five dragons. OOC we don’t know which one gets the +1. Statements like this build on our knowledge as players, but commonly accepted isn’t absolute fact in a game expecting plot twists.

Actually, we do know there are – or rather, were six Elder Dragons. Another scholar mentions how jotun stelae mentions a “sextant of swallowers.”

The question is: is this sixth Elder Dragon still even alive? And if so, is it awake and making any influence on the world?

Given that the Master of Whispers herself makes mention of Zhaitan’s death being “one fifth” of their primary goal, it would appear that one of the two questions is answered with “no” – or at the very least, that the sixth dragon isn’t a threat (yet). And yes, the Order of Whispers knows of the sixth Elder Dragon, as Scholar Trueclaw is an Order of Whispers spy.

Its possible that the Master of Whispers believes the Pale tree to be the sixth dragon (for the same reasons some of us believe them to be) and has decided that they aren’t a threat. Thus her 1/5 down statement still makes sense. After all, the races of tyria have lived for centuries with Dragons as part of their cultures, so there shouldn’t be too much stigma about the sylvari.

If you want more evidence of Deep Sea Dragon’s existence, look to the Largos. Some of them retreated from the dark oceans of the Unending Ocean, and considering their attitude towards creatures like DSD, some of them are probably still there fighting it.

Remember, these guys are an entirely new race to GW2, so why would they add them there for no reason? There must be some underlying importance to their existence and the reason why there aren’t so many in Tyria right now because it would make too many people realize this important, implying factor.

@Konig: I learned about the statement “sextet of swallowers” sometime after making my previous post. Thank you for bringing it up again. It reminded me to actually check who said that on the wiki. Also, for those of us who like me don’t have the meaning of sextet on the tip of their brain, wikipedia sextet. I play so much fantasy I just assumed it was some sort of ancient tablet.

So yeah, we know there are exactly six dragons for sure now, assuming Jotun legend wasn’t just refering to the on the Tyrian continent. (In which case we might not be able to count “Bubbles” amongst the six, leaving two more sleeping on the Tyrian continent and who knows how many others asleep or awake elsewhere. Scary…) Point is I still don’t see the Pale Tree and the sylvari as having much in common with them. If anything I look at the dwarves turned to stone and how they have a lot in common with the destroyers, and think that there must be a plant based elder dragon and the sylvari much exist to counter that dragon specifically.

Well we can assume that the jotun would only know a limited amount of knowledge – I doubt they were world-spread after all. The dwarves only shown indication of knowing 3 Elder Dragons to our knowledge (Primordus, Jormag, and Zhaitan), but there are relics similar to Deldrimor dwarves’ artifacts found in the Jade Sea during GW1, and the forgotten were in Cantha too. So it’s possible there’s one we don’t know about down there (either the sixth, or a seventh – I’m hoping for a Elder Celestial/Sky Dragon personally, as that’d greatly fit with the draconic theme down there – Kuunavang giving celestial skills, and having air magic-based skills outside of the typical fiery dragon breath).

The notion that the DSD isn’t among the six is interesting, though. It would mean that there could be a “rock” based dragon, going off of the name Mordramoth (used in a skill by Subject Alpha who also uses skills named after Primordus and Jormag) and a comment by skritt of an “underground rock dragon” (though the latter most likely refers to Primordus, obviously).

However, that would mean either the DSD is some good distance from Tyria (and Cantha), or that it was known by the jotun – perhaps through shared knowledge with the dwarves and forgotten (but if this is the case, then there won’t likely be an ED on Cantha unless the Sixth isn’t plant-based).

Lots of possibilities…

I’ve been wondering why there are 5 portals in Lion’s Arch that presumably lead to expansions. At one elder dragon per expansion, I thought that was one too many, but now it makes perfect sense. On the other hand I doubt the Sylvari are dragon minions, but I wouldn’t rule out “the nightmare” being related to the final dragon.

TheHiTmAn.4738:

we can see a corrupted version of each race ….
each race have a corrupted version … all but one … the sylvari … we have never seen a risen sylvari … or branded sylvari or Icebrood sylvari … that for sure raises a question …. Why ?

This is because their race is so young. No Sylvari were around when Orr sank, none have died of old age yet, none were there when Kralkatorrik created the dragonbrand, and none have gone to worship or (directly) fight Jormag.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given that the Master of Whispers herself makes mention of Zhaitan’s death being “one fifth” of their primary goal, it would appear that one of the two questions is answered with “no” – or at the very least, that the sixth dragon isn’t a threat (yet). And yes, the Order of Whispers knows of the sixth Elder Dragon, as Scholar Trueclaw is an Order of Whispers spy.

It’s likely that the sixth dragon has not yet woken or even suspected to be dead, and therefore isn’t being counted as part of the threat.

What if the sixth dragon is, in fact, nature-centric but because of her love for nature and balance, defected from the circle of elder dragons who seek only dominion? In Prophecies, the game was built around humans and their six gods – one of whom was cast down and rejected the other five for being a jerk. Since the remaining five gods were more or less benevolent toward the human race, the sixth was considered evil and must be stopped (and ultimately replaced, I suppose).

Now with the dragons, however, the 5-on-1 scenario may still hold true except the odd-dragon-out seeks balance in all things and understands the need for both good and evil to coexist in Tyria. So this sixth nature-based dragon is saddened by the destruction the other dragons begin to cause, and her tears become seeds that pool up in a cave that Ronan finds and plants to become the pale tree. The essence of the sixth dragon creates the race of Sylvari, which would essentially be her ‘minions’ or followers.

Now consider the fact that the other 5 ED’s seek only dominion over all things (presumably even each other). Their minions fall into the ‘hive mind’ concept where the dragons make all decisions and orders pertaining to the actions of said minions & champions. But what if that is an active choice on their part? I know if I wanted to rule the world, making everyone act solely upon my will would be an extremely easy way to accomplish that. But the sixth dragon understands the need for free will in order for good and evil to coexist. The magic used on Glint by the Forgotten can’t be unique and may have even been bestowed to them by this benevolent sixth dragon who, until now, sought refuge and isolation away from the destruction wrought by the other dragons. But she finally sees she needs to take action and form her own plant-based dragon-immune race of Sylvari to have a shot at "restoring balance to the force. "

They don’t act like true minions because she granted them free will. She knows something like the Nightmare Court must exist even within her own ranks because there can be no force for good without an opposing force for evil, but hopes that by joining forces with the “good guys” from the other races that the scales can be rebalanced again – even against the other elder dragons. And the details of her existence are only marginally known due to the fact that she hasn’t caused any catastrophic destruction to make a name for herself. But maybe somewhere along the way she created precurser minions with sylvan hounds, oakhearts and ibogas that just weren’t quite right for the job but may prove useful later in the fight against the other dragons. And maybe with a victory over Zhaitan she’ll reveal herself to the lesser races and help in the fight against the other ED’s and become our new “Glint” character.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

the forgotten were in Cantha too.

Now I’m not calling you out on anything, but I am interested as to where you read that the forgotten were in Cantha, remembering that the naga and forgotten are two different races (at least according to ArenaNet during the original GW)

Second paragraph under Major Events (Late Pre-Imperial Era) http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

“Surprisingly, although surviving records and artifacts from this period prove that the serpentine Forgotten dwelt in Cantha as well, they appear not to have come into conflict with humans there. My own interpretation of the data indicates that geographic reasons are most likely: the two races did not compete for food or territory before the Forgotten departed the world en masse.”

Interesting, I had read that article a long time back, and guess I had forgotten this part (pun intended).

Guys i readed everything and i camed to something:

How about there are 6 Elder Dragons all are awaken the 5 Elder dragons we know and are awakaned and we wait to fight them and the sixth is the Most powerfull of all and he is the strongest from all and is neutral. So he created Sylvari so the battle would be balanced 5 races vs 5 Elder Dragons so the force of good and evil would be balanced.

Also the races of tyria didnt know the threat of the Elder Dragons so this Sylvari are here to help and unite the races since they are in all stories.

Many people seem to like this theory that there is a 6th elder dragon that is more powerful than the rest and/or is good or neutral. The thing is that there is no evidence to show that any elder dragon would have any reason to be good.

Now that this has been said, I want to point out that from some points of view it could be said that the elder dragons themselves are neutral and not evil. Why would I say this, you ask? Well would anyone consider a sandstorm evil? a hurricane? a earthquake? Of course we wouldn’t, these are forces of nature with no malicious motivations, and the Elder dragons are the same, though this may be hard to believe.

The way I see it, the Elder dragons exist to propagate their own version of reality. They are forces of nature, like Narcemus said. They don’t corrupt out of spite or maliciousness, though Zhaitan might due to its nature, but ultimately the Elder Dragons seek purely to shape the world into their image. Kralkatorrik would see all turned to crystal and lightning, Zhaitan desired to rule over a rotting world, and so forth.

On the subject of the 6th dragon, while I find the theory of the Sylvari being minions not that far fetched, I sort of favor the idea of it being a failsafe system from the 5 races who fought the dragons before. We know the Forgotten at least took steps to prevent a resurgence, or at least leave the world with information, by freeing Glint.

I think its not absurd to suggest that the other races may have done the same. The Dwarves had their Great Dwarf failsafe to try and enable them to fight Primordius. Perhaps the Sylvari are a failsafe from the Mursaat or the Seers. I would bet the Jotun failsafe is the Norn, or perhaps the spirits of the Wild. Might be off base there, but I think its a possibility and I would find that a bit more believable than a champion breaking free on its own or with very little help

I believe there is a plant based dragon, yes, as there is a room in the crucible of eternity where some inquest are being attack by 5 types of corrupted (we only know of 4). a corrupted, a risen, a destroyer, a branded, and a corrupted husk.

It’s interesting that you only see the corrupted husk here, and with the nightmare court.

I think it’s the other way around. I believe the sylvari and pale tree, for all intents and purposes, are pure. However, it’s possible that like the sons of svarnir, the 6th elder dragon is silently corrupting them from afar, turning them to nightmare. This would explain the plant dragon in the dream and the corrupted husks in CoE.

To add to this, Alpha also has a move called fangs of mordromoth. Giving us not only an enemy type, but also the dragon’s energy itself and possibly name.

Also the books addressed the dragons alignment. The dragons are not evil, they are simply hungry, endlessly hungry. That hunger is how, after all, snaff disabled kralkatorik. The dragons more or less want to shape the world around them, consciously or not.

I have a feeling that 5 ancient races vs 6 dragons… is actually 6 ancient races vs 5 dragons.
But it depends on if you know a secret that shouldn’t be revealed.

Then which race would you propose being the sixth – keep in mind that, given the context, it would be six surviving and sentient races – and along with this, the jotun would have had to know of them (as this information of there being six Elder Dragons and five surviving races comes from the jotun’s historical records).

Mind you, I can think of three potential sentient race survivors from the time, but they’re all far from the jotun in their original known locations (kodan, tengu, and krait).

However, such a concept fails as we’re told that “there were five sentient races who fought the Elder Dragons the first time and survived” and “there were five sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons the first time around… and survived to tell about it.” by Scholar Trueclaw and, by Scholar Caterine there’s mention of "a sextet of “swallowers” who are said to have consumed the world several times over. " (sounds like Elder Dragons to me). So it seems to be five races versus six Elder Dragons.

Though this is, again, only to jotun stelae.

I’ve thought for a while now that the Steam Creatures are a dragon minion of some kind. Everything about them fits the description of a dragon minion army.

Except the steam creatures show no sign of corrupting other living beings, unlike the undead who can apparently spread Zhaitan’s power of undeath over the creatures they slay.

The Destroyers don’t corrupt, they are just made in the image of creatures that already exist.

The steam creatures’ background is explained in the Infinity Ball asura storyline. They’re creates of the asura PC in one of the possible futures, and are sent to the current Tyria in order to take over it (as the asura PC has become the Grand Sovereign of Tyria in his world).

They seem more likely to be tools to fight Elder Dragons, given that, by appearances, the ED were weakened in their version of Tyria (in one of the portals opened between the worlds, tiny and weak destroyers come through). Either way, I don’t see any similarity between the steam creatures and the ED minions at all.

The Way I see it, the dragons so far represent the divided magical energies used by classes or at least divided into a similar categories

Fire/(Earth) (Primordus)
Water(Water Dragon)
Ice(Jormag)
Earth/Crystal and Electricity/storm (Kralkatorrik)
Lifeforce (Zhaitan)
So what are we missing

Light
Unaffiliated Energy(Assuming Torrik isn’t a part of this)
Nature.

I may not have as much evidence to support this theory above the pale tree being dragon related, but it would sure fit the theme of the dragons being divided into magic casts.

Besides, when was the last time you’ve seen an evil divine energy dragon?

Guys…..there are so many hint that the pale tree is a connection with the sixth elder dragon…. And most probably is the elder dragon.
Did u see the pale tree’s size? its freakin huge! id say thats an ED size! also, near that crucible of eternity, in the green area, that skill point golem…. when u defeat him, he tells u something in binary code, which, when it is translated, says THE PALE TREE

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The steam creatures’ background is explained in the Infinity Ball asura storyline. They’re creates of the asura PC in one of the possible futures, and are sent to the current Tyria in order to take over it (as the asura PC has become the Grand Sovereign of Tyria in his world).

They seem more likely to be tools to fight Elder Dragons, given that, by appearances, the ED were weakened in their version of Tyria (in one of the portals opened between the worlds, tiny and weak destroyers come through). Either way, I don’t see any similarity between the steam creatures and the ED minions at all.

The first wave may be tiny and weak, but the second… :o

A possibly more likely explanation is that the dragons seem capable of corrupting magical artifacts, but at least have difficulty doing the same to technological devices. If the steam creatures are in fact purely technological, then, they may have been initially built as a replacement for golems to be the front line against the dragons. (Although why, if that’s the case, they’re made to resemble creatures such as minotaurs and riders is an interesting question.)

As to the above: the Pale Tree is huge because it’s a magical tree – doesn’t need any other explanation. And I’ve heard that the binary thing was a rumour that turned out to be false – someone independantly decoded it and it turned out to be something different – but I haven’t done that one so I can’t say either way. Konig might be able to, though. Even if it is, it could be that Section Green is for studying what makes the sylvari immune to the dragons, since one of the functions of the CoE seems to be studying draconic corruption. (Which, incidentally, debunks the argument that the sylvari are immune to draconic corruption because they’re already minions, since there’s a creature in the CoE that shows the effects of corruption from multiple dragons)

Certainly, given that we know the origin of the Pale Tree, we can rule out that she herself is the sixth ED. It could be that she’s a descendant of that ED’s method of making minions (though I personally doubt it) but given the chronology we can rule out that she’s the sixth dragon itself.

True, if an elder dragon went to sleep for 10,000 years why would it decend into the form of a seed and require to be planted and reborn. It makes no sense, especially since the other Elder Dragons stayed in their regular form it would be very weak to fight against them, should the need arise.

Bard.7215:

The Way I see it, the dragons so far represent the divided magical energies used by classes or at least divided into a similar categories

Fire/(Earth) (Primordus)
Water(Water Dragon)
Ice(Jormag)
Earth/Crystal and Electricity/storm (Kralkatorrik)
Lifeforce (Zhaitan)
So what are we missing

Light
Unaffiliated Energy(Assuming Torrik isn’t a part of this)
Nature.

I may not have as much evidence to support this theory above the pale tree being dragon related, but it would sure fit the theme of the dragons being divided into magic casts.

Besides, when was the last time you’ve seen an evil divine energy dragon?

The issue with this is that Zhaitan, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik all have electricity in areas of high concentrated corruption. Drakkar Spurs for Jormag and where Zhaitan’s defeated in Arah for him both have the same kind of electrical current around spires of the land.

So what we’re missing, in terms of dragons being tied to a specific aspect of nature (as that’s what they’re tied to – not magical affiliations), you’d get:

Known:
Fire, ice, crystal, water, undeath

Speculated:
Nature

Missing:
Stars, Air, Lightning, Earth (while Primordus also corrupts earth, his focus is fire/lava – same with Kralk, who’s focus is crystals not earth/lightning), Life, Chaos, Light, Darkness

Note:
The first three of the Missing (stars, air, and lightning) can be one.

Death Diablos.6702:

Guys…..there are so many hint that the pale tree is a connection with the sixth elder dragon…. And most probably is the elder dragon.
Did u see the pale tree’s size? its freakin huge! id say thats an ED size! also, near that crucible of eternity, in the green area, that skill point golem…. when u defeat him, he tells u something in binary code, which, when it is translated, says THE PALE TREE

1) Go to the Maguuma Jungle in GW1, or to the Echovald Forest – those trees are similarly “freakin huge” – the Maguuma Jungle has dozens of Stonewood trees so the Pale Tree’s size is irrelevant.

2) Wooden Potatoes’ video on the skill point golem’s binary code was wrong – it does not translate into “the pale tree” but rather “end transmission sequence” (iirc).

So no, there are not dozens of hints to this.

draxynnic.3719:

If the steam creatures are in fact purely technological, then, they may have been initially built as a replacement for golems to be the front line against the dragons. (Although why, if that’s the case, they’re made to resemble creatures such as minotaurs and riders is an interesting question.)

One of the NPCs in Lornar’s Pass says that he believes (or that his research has shown? can’t recall which) that the steam creatures have an organic core.

Despite being described as forces of nature, I think you’re taking the concept farther away than I am. I merely noticed a connection between the powers the players can muster and the powers of the dragons themselves. If Zhiatan as undeath is considered a natural phenomenon then I do believe that the number of elder dragons possibly existing under your concept would greatly exceed those you mentioned. I only see Zhiatians existence as a representation of life force exchange in the sense of the same force necromancers call their own. Under this concept his role as elderdragon makes a bit more sense. So far the only dragon that doesn’t fit well with my theory is Krakkletorrik, However this is due to the sheer obscurity of the power he represents, Crystal.

I mostly consider Krakkletorrik to be of a greater representation of earth than that of Primordos, which focuses on flame and magma. This is because Crystal in of itself is a part of earth. the effects of the branded corruption aren’t solely composed of crystal, but mostly a black obsidian like stone. the natural phenomenon he’s commonly compared to is that of furious sandstorm.

The reason I consider his power electric in nature is the fact that crystals have certain electromagnetic properties, which explains the large amount of energy surging through Branded corruption. Torrik is also described as a hurricane on several occasions, meaning he likely has a power over electricity itself, which is very fitting for a representation of earth.

That being stated, the magic using classes have powers that are also represented by the Elder dragons excluding Mesmers ,Guardians and Rangers (Unaffiliated Energy, Light Energy, Nature) Which is why I feel there is a dragon of surging ethereal power, a Dragon of searing light, and a dragon of natures essence, still out there.

Zhaitan’s a bit of an odd-ball of the group, but all Elder Dragons’ power are, in appearance, related to a single aspect of nature/elements (fire, ice, crystal, water). Arguably, Zhaitan can be death, undeath, or even life (giving life to the dead creates what we call undeath).

However, I’m not seeing a connection between professions and Elder Dragons. Not on a one-to-one basis at least.

Jormag corrupts mentally, and thus can be argued to relate to mesmers. However, he is ice first and foremost, therefore – water elementalists or ice necromancers. Primordus is fire, and somewhat earth, therefore elementalists. Kralkatorrik is crystal and lightning, elementalist fitting the best. Zhaitan while being the undeath dragon, utilizes mesmers to the nth degree and thus can be argued to be either necromancer or mesmer.

The reason I don’t attribute Kralkatorrik to earth is due to Subject Alpha during the Crucible of Eternity explorable mode – he has attacks from each dragon, and two of them are earth-related. Teeth of Jormag has a mixture of ice and earth (a single large icespike surrounded by earth spikes), and “Teeth of Mordramoth” which is solely earth. However, his Kralkatorrik-related attack is solely crystal.

It just doesn’t work out, truth be told. There’s just too many ties to nature and the elements – and thus too many dragons being tied to elementalists.

Also, Mesmers aren’t “unaffiliated energy” but rather chaos.

Maybe I wasn’t to clear by using class as the basis for the dragons, because you’re right in the sense that most would fall under the abilities of an elementalist. I was thinking more along the lines of the energies that certain classes use, Elemntalists being the spearhead by using five. Perhaps if we further divides these natural “elements” into a category that extends beyond the four elements of an elementalists, you can better understand what I mean.

Earth
Fire
Water
ice(in this case, separate from water)
Air/lighting (Always combined in fantasy for some reason)
Light( Guardian stuff, associated with Dwayna)
Life/Undeath(Necromancers dark power is defined as life energy, drawn from living things and used for attacks and minions)
Choas/Arcana/Unaffiliated energy (they say Lyssa is associate with unaffiliated energy, but we can call it Choas if you want).

This entire concept is partly based off the presence of Zhaitan. If he wasn’t such an oddball than the lack of a potential Light, chaos and nature dragon would make more sense, restricting the elder dragons to a solely elemental/natural phenomenon paradigm. However with a big undead necromancy like dragon the game is basically begging for more roles to fill.

Also, I’ve never seen a fantasy where Crystal wasn’t considered an aspect of earth. They’re usually associated with the energy and electrical powers of earth as opposed to the primal and furious powers of earth, but earth none the less.. Crystals are still basically rocks.

My belief is that Arena wanted an earthly dragon but wanted it to be different from Primordus, since the best was to portray natural fire and destruction is through volcanic fury, rather than some born of fire phoenix monster. Crystals were likely a more interesting approach to an earthly entity than a rocky stone dragon, and if the Pale tree theories are true than a Stony moss covered Colossus like dragon would be too similar to nature in appearance. Crystals would be the most original way to portray an earth elementalish dragon if I were a creative dev for a fantasy genre.

I don’t recall Lyssa ever being tied to “unaffiliated energy” – in either game. Mesmers use chaos magic though, when it deals with non-mental or illusionary magic (and Lyssa != Mesmers).

I actually wouldn’t really call the Sixth – should Zone Green be in reference to it – a “nature” dragon but rather a “plant” dragon (there’s a huge difference). And when one associates plants, they typically think either life or earth – though Zone Green also has a lot of poison, which would be more of death than anything else I’d think.

To Kralkatorrik being crystal – personally, I think that was more made out of a desire to expand upon the lore of the Searing (which seems more and more to be tied to Kralkatorrik now) and Glint – and the easiest means was a Crystal Elder Dragon. And what better place to put it than the Crystal Desert…. Because Crystals!

But I still don’t really see any tie to the professions with the Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that the professions are in fact merely lifestyles utilizing the same four schools of magic: Preservation (supposedly guardian – formerly monk and paragon), Denial (supposedly mesmer and thief – formerly assassin), Destruction (confirmed elementalists – possibly dervish), and Aggression (supposedly necromancer – possibly ritualist). Ranger’s placement is completely hard to tell, since they don’t really match the “most likely” professions from GW1 or in GW2 (they gained magical abilities between the two games).

So the eight professions are just different utilizations of the same magic. So if there would be a tie between ED and professions, it’d be to those schools of magic. HOWEVER! The schools of magic were created by the division of the original Bloodstone – this happened 10,000 years after the Elder Dragons’ latest previous awakening. Furthermore, said original Bloodstone was made by the seers by collecting all non-corrupted magic.

In other words, the four schools of magic are outright and explicitly not in direct relation to the Elder Dragons (in that they share representations or the like) and in turn cannot hold a relation between ED and professions. But rather, the Elder Dragons’ magic are outside these four schools of magic.

Lyssa did have a certain connection to generic magical energy in GW1 – it’s through shrines to Lyssa that Energy Storage for elementalists and Mysticism for dervishes – both attributes relating to energy – can be boosted.

Regarding the professions, there is absolutely no reason the magical professions should line up nicely to the dragons. Keep in mind that the progenitor to the Bloodstones held magic that was safeguarded from draconic influence, and at the time the dragons last went to sleep it was undifferentiated – it was only after the gods split it to make the Bloodstones that the professions fell out rather than ‘magic-user’ being the sole magic-using profession that could do everything. The dragons may well have their magic divided among different parts of the magical spectrum, but there is little reason for it to line up nicely (or at all!) with professions that only appeared after the last time the dragons went to sleep.

(I say ‘little’ because I suspect the divisions are something the gods did have something to do with, since the professions as they currently stand do allow mortals to imperfectly mirror the preferences of the gods… and if theories relating gods to dragons have any backing whatsoever, there might be a second-hand link to the dragons that way. Personally, though, I doubt it… or at least regard any such link as dating back to previous generations of gods. Given ANet’s stated lore policy of going wider rather than deeper, I expect the gods to have an origin unrelated to the dragons, rather than everything coming back to the dragons.)

Ranger, I suspect, shares a magic type with elementalist, possibly added to non-bloodstone related spirit summoning similar to the ancient ritualists. They had abilities in GW1 that could be interpreted as either elemental magic or craftiness, and some of their moves in GW2 are clearly elemental in nature. (Or at least, they certainly aren’t guardian magic, necromancy, or mesmerism.)

I stopped reading as soon as I saw the OP use the word “unlogical.”

I was wrong for using the concept that the elder dragons have class parrallels, again it was more of a magic type/ element of said energy divide I was refering too.

I don’t think the bloodstones discredit the idea that the dragons have a representation as the elements.

Abaddon’s gift of magic and it’s later divide, they all manipulate things that already exist. Elementalists manipulate the rock, wind, water and fire that has existed before since the gods even set foot on tyria. Necromancers manipulate the life force that had been on Tyria since time inremerable. Guardian manipulate the aspiring light of the world, and Mesmers the choas. These things exist without magic, magic was just the catalyst of their manipulation, the manipulation of the elder dragons own elements. This is why I think there is an elder dragon for every force, regardless of the magic of the gods.

just thought i’d mention, people are always talking about the “5 races of tyria”. keep in mind that just because you can only play kitten races doesn’t mean there are only 5. there are kodan, skritt, hylek, quaggan, those butterfly dudes (largos i think), and so on.

they’re not just sitting by. they’re actively fighting the dragons. there are more than just 5 races fighting them. so maybe the “5 against 6” line could mean something else.

The 5 against 6 had to deal with the previous cycle of dragons, in which there were only 5 known races to fight against the dragons. These races were the dwarves, mursaat, Seer, forgotten, and jotun.

It is very obvious that there are at least 10 races probably taking part in this battle. Between the main 5, the hylek, tengu, skritt, quaggan, and I’m sure more (not counting Krait or Dredge because of their general tendency to hurt rather than help the fight against the dragons.

Bard.7215:

I was wrong for using the concept that the elder dragons have class parrallels, again it was more of a magic type/ element of said energy divide I was refering too.

I don’t think the bloodstones discredit the idea that the dragons have a representation as the elements.

I never said anything about elements. Thing is, professions don’t use elements – they use the schools. Dragons use elements.

They use two different concepts in their energy. Though the professions’ magic can take the form of affecting elements (particularly seen in elementalists, necromancers, and rangers), that isn’t how they’re classified.

The magic “types” are the “schools” – that’s how magic works in Guild Wars. Their appearance to natural elements is merely that – appearance. There’s nothing that says “non-Elementalists cannot use lightning-appearing magic” or “since Elementalists use Destruction magic, other professions who don’t use Destruction magic cannot use elemental magic” – since both cases are very much false (guardians have a, albeit minor, ability to use magic to make both lightning and fire; similarly, necromancers can create ice with their magic).

Unless you’re referring to the mechanical damage types (in GW1, those being Fire, Cold/Ice, Earth, Lightning, Holy, Chaos, and Unholy – excluding physical damage) but that’s unrelated (directly speaking) to lore.

Magic cannot be placed into “types” like you’re trying – instead, what you’re giving the dragons are irrelevant to magic (directly, that is) as that is natural elements rather than “magical elements” (something that’s non-existent in GW). Which once more means there’s no (direct) relation between Elder Dragons and professions (especially since we’d thus get 3 Elder Dragons for Elementalists, one for both Elementalists and Mesmers, and one for Necromancers – but Elementalists and Mesmers use different magic schools, and only one at that, therefore by your argument, Kralkatorrik and Primordus would be using the same “magic type”).

Dragons also eat magic, which expands their power, furthering their connection

You don’t seem to have much of a source stating the particular method in which magic produces effects that mimic the elements themselves. My elementalist is literally pulling stone from the ground, I’m not manipulating magical energies so that they look like rocks. Granted this is more on the grounds of an observational and logic based sources.

The bloodstones were a control device, hindering magic from it’s full use. A Water spell in destruction that does damage and a water spell in preservation that heals are only separated in their methods of manipulation via the bloodstones, where as something free of such control could use magic to freely manipulate the elements, aka Dragons.

Blood stone methodology has no presence here, a spell that manipulates Ice whether to heal or protect means nothing to Jormag, who can do whatever he wants with the ice he represents. So the very powers that magic iself manipulates all have their elemental orgins with the dragons, indicating there are dragons that represent things such as light, Choas among other things magic just so happens to touch.

Given that dragons feed off of magic and the various claims of magic existing before the human gods, I have doubts that magic was ever truly a gift from the human gods, In fact chronologically it’s more or less hinted that the Gods reintroduced magic after the slumbering of the dragons, indicating the dragons themselves were either the source or the revoker of the worlds original magic supply.

I think where we disagree here is that I see no difference between the elements themselves, When a scholar uses an element, regardless of how the blood stones divided it up, he’s manipulating what is already there. You think magic produces an effect that looks like an element but is really just magic itself.

Well, if you think that necromancers can lay marks that merely manipulates standard ice in a volcanic area (or for that matter, water elementalists doing the same), then I suppose one can indeed argue that they’re using magic to manipulate the elements rather than using magic to create the appearance (and effects) of an element (or alternatively, creating a far more sturdier version of it)! Though I for one have never heard of a small shard of ice lasting very long in a volcanic environment.

Or fire existing underwater.

But hey, it’s magic so it must be able to allow standard regular non-created elements to do such amazing feats!

/semi-sarcasm off

As to the bloodstones. That’s what we were originally told, however this is false. The original Bloodstone, made by the seers, was used to contain non-Elder Dragon (influenced) magic, not control nor filter it. Abaddon then did something to it to grant magic in large amounts to the world. The five gods then in turn shattered it to create the four schools of magic, and in turn also making them filters.

But your relation between dragons and bloodstone magic is, more or less, exactly what I’ve been saying too.

The elements aren’t tied to a profession, nor a school. They’re not tied to anything magical because they simply are not magic-centric. The dragons, while utilizing magic, are more elemental in nature and appearance.

As to the doubts of “magic was ever truly a gift from the human gods” – it’s more of that magic being so widespread and powerful was the gift. It existed before, but very weakly (as the only magic in the world outside what was completely and fully contained in the bloodstone was either Elder Dragon or spiritual (based on Ritualists)), but when Abaddon “gifted” magic – then it was widespread, and extremely powerful – anyone could wield it, and wield a great deal of it. Effectively, everyone were, by modern GW standards, super-wizards. Something like Spectral Agony would probably be a common-place thing (as indications show that was a spell developed prior to the containment of magic in the original Bloodstone – based on chronology). However, when the bloodstones were divided, it was weakened – not as much as it was before the “gift of magic”, but not as strong during the “gift of magic” – so while magic wasn’t made by the gods, nor were the bloodstones, magic was still gifted by them.

The way I look at the dragons is they are Aspects. While certain elements are frequently associated with professions, things make more sense to me by considering everything being spawned by more abstract forces.

Glint’s trial consisted of Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength. There is a fairly good correspondence between these and the dragons if viewed as the destructive aspects of these. Similarly the human gods represent these concepts.

That was based on GW1, however. Concepts have evolved and been refined since then. Maybe Elements should really be Knowledge. How I slot things for the moment:

Darkness – Zhaitan – Grenth
Chaos – Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
Knowledge – Deep Sea Dragon – Kormir
Nature – The Nightmare – Melandru
Strength – Primordius – Balthazar
Light – Jormag – Dwayna

For now I consider The Nightmare to be the sixth dragon, and one that has not fully awakened yet. Sylvari fight a plant dragon and it’s thorn hound minions in their dreams, not one of the others. They mistake its form as representing the dragons in general, because they were not aware of a specific there was one of a specific Aspect which was calling to them. It also explains why Sylvari can be turned to Nightmare, be unable to be turned back, yet they’re immune to corruption by the other dragons.