Guild Wars 2

In at least one picture from the concept art for “The Nightmare Within” we see Scarlet Briar overshadowed by (what we all assume is) the Champion Toxic Hybrid. (I have provided a link to that art here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/november-12-2013/ for ease of reference.) One thing is immediately obvious to everyone who views it: The creature behind Scarlet has six eyes. This observation has led to theories associating chaos magic with Abaddon. The association is easily formed; for starters, at least one of the Asura NPCs in the vicinity of the Thaumanova Reactor facility (Researcher Flizz) refers to the magic released in the explosion as “chaos magic”. Furthermore, a creature known as a “Chaos Beast” .spawns at the facility, characterized by six eyes. South of the facility, chaotic material is the new-found hoard of the Skritt of The Anthill, which is occasionally turning them into “Chaos Beasts” too. Finally, at least one model of Abaddon in GW1 was rendered with six eyes; Abaddon’s demonic worshippers, the Margonites, also had six eyes; so too the Titans, who were commanded by him. So, in a roundabout kind of way, you can link Abaddon to Thaumanova and from Thaumanova, to Scarlet.

But, as at least one prominent poster has noted, if chaos magic is to be associated with a human deity, it should be associated with Lyssa. (Refer to this post for further details: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Abaddon-Releasing-Chaos-Energy-Magic.) The confusion behind the origins of chaos magic seems to be due to the nature of the Eternal Alchemy itself. According to the Zaishen Order, “a guild that holds tournaments to honor and protect holy places” aspects of the Eternal Alchemy include chaos and strife. So you could easily reinterpret this from a human perspective in the light of the Chaos Beasts and the Champion Toxic Hybrid to mean that this chaos magic is somehow related to Abaddon. But the distinctly human “feel” of GW1 is lacking in it’s sequel. To clarify, therefore, myself and a number of others may wish to reconsider to what we should attribute the existence of chaos magic.

We may need to reassess our current theories about the origins of chaos magic. To begin my own reorientation and perhaps to help everyone else too, consider this: Ley line theory may have the answer to the six eyes of Scarlet’s latest handiwork. According to the following referenced post (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Abaddon-Releasing-Chaos-Energy-Magic) there may be a ley line running between the Thaumanova Reactor facility and the Chaos Crystal Cavern. Now consider carefully at least two points along this ley line. They are both Places Of Power; they are both portals. One is the Steam Portal of Lornar’s Pass; another is the Portal To The Underworld. This should not be ignored, as any area of Tyria in which we see a collection of multi-coloured crystals is the site of some kind of portal. Think about the Chaos Crystal Cavern: What do you see in there? An Unusual Asura Gate. Now turn your attention to the Darkhoof Heights. In a cave there you will fight a dark Raven shaman, after which you will be invited to use a portal to exit the location. There is also a portal in the Drakkar Spurs, overshadowed by giant ice crystals “buzzing” with magical energy. Lastly, there is a portal to the Font Of Rhand in Diessa Plateau, which leads to a cave (or catacomb, if you’d prefer) that is probably close to more magical crystals. The point is that all of these locations probably correspond to points along Tyria’s ley lines. They are points through which beings exit and enter. Somehow, Scarlet may have been able to incarnate a Nightmare creature, possibly by diverting it’s entrance through The Portal To The Underworld using ley lines.

But does this mean that we should overlook the connection between the Champion Toxic Hybrid and Abaddon? Not entirely. There are echoes of the dead deity’s voice in the hybrid. But remember, Abaddon was imprisoned in the Realm Of Torment; the demon Margonites also – so too the Titans. In other words, there is more in favour of arguing that six-eyed creatures have something to do with the Realm Of Torment than Abaddon. Of course, noting this association doesn’t mean that the Champion Toxic Hybrid isn’t a Margonite. I’ll leave speculation about that up to those more learned than I in this regard…

“No! I cannot be the last of my kind.”

I would note that not everything tied to Abaddon has 6 eyes. The titans that you mention do not have 6 eyes. In fact they have a myriad of numbers of eyes ranging from apparently none, to two, six, or maybe up to 10 in the instance of the Icy Brute. Plus there are things found in-game in GW1 that are 6 eyed that we are told, from my understanding, are NOT related to Abaddon. The biggest examples being the Jade armors, bows, and cloaks. I would state that 6 eyes definitely represents evil in the world of Tyria, but as much as they built it up in Nightfall, it does not always represent Abaddon’s presence.

As to Abaddon and Chaos magic, it has always seemed a little weird that chaos beasts share the same skin as the shades in game. The shades are very closely tied to the Underworld, and thus necromancy. I would say, IMO, that the presence of necromantic minions in chaos magic facility is just a way of showing that this chaos magic distorts all the types of magic within the world. When in the facility you can see the effects of all the magical professions in one space, practically.

As to talk about crystals, I find it interesting that you bring them up. Crystals are known already to hold properties for holding, controlling and being conduits for magic. If my theory is correct, then the leylines that we are learning about could possibly just be veins of crystal that web through the depths of Tyria and act as conduits for the magic seeping out of the Elder Dragons or other magical items such as the bloodstones.

Narcemus, thanks for the clarification about the association between multi-eyed beings and Abaddon: Clearly, there is no reason to believe that a link between them exists.

Also, a correction to what I previously posted: Although I think that a ley-line may exist between Thaumanova and the Chaos Crystal Cavern, it should be noted that that line does not pass through Queensdale. If a ley line does pass through Queensdale, however, I would suggest that it passes through Godlost Swamp.

Stephen.6312:

Narcemus, thanks for the clarification about the association between multi-eyed beings and Abaddon: Clearly, there is no reason to believe that a link between them exists.

Also, a correction to what I previously posted: Although I think that a ley-line may exist between Thaumanova and the Chaos Crystal Cavern, it should be noted that that line does not pass through Queensdale. If a ley line does pass through Queensdale, however, I would suggest that it passes through Godlost Swamp.

So poignant to bring up the Godslost Swamp… new video coming in a day or two…

Stephen, I sent you a PM.

I may certainly be mistaken, but isn’t the portal to the Mists in Lion’s Arch also approximately placed around the hypothetical leyline between the Thaumanova Reactor and the Chaos Crystal Caverns?

MaesterTed.6571:

I may certainly be mistaken, but isn’t the portal to the Mists in Lion’s Arch also approximately placed around the hypothetical leyline between the Thaumanova Reactor and the Chaos Crystal Caverns?

Yes indeed

Why does the Zaishen’s reverence of Eternal Alchemy’s aspect of chaos lead to tying Abaddon to chaos? The Zaishen follow Balthazar, not Abaddon. They fought Abaddon.

Stephen.6312:

This should not be ignored, as any area of Tyria in which we see a collection of multi-coloured crystals is the site of some kind of portal. Think about the Chaos Crystal Cavern: What do you see in there? An Unusual Asura Gate. Now turn your attention to the Darkhoof Heights. In a cave there you will fight a dark Raven shaman, after which you will be invited to use a portal to exit the location. There is also a portal in the Drakkar Spurs, overshadowed by giant ice crystals “buzzing” with magical energy. Lastly, there is a portal to the Font Of Rhand in Diessa Plateau, which leads to a cave (or catacomb, if you’d prefer) that is probably close to more magical crystals.

….

An artificially created asura gate used by the Inquest.

A mesmer created portal (that’s no different than the Portal skill(s) for mesmers).

A portal (presumably into the Mists) by Jormag’s forces surrounded by Jormag’s corruption (which is ice, not crystal).

A Flame Legion portal which are made in large amounts throughout various places with no sign of portals.

I’m not seeing a connection here, honestly. These are all artificially made portals around natural environments. The portals were made by someone to access the area. In two cases there were crystals nearby. And you open massive flimsiness by Font of Rhand since you have 0 evidence of crystals – you just point it out and say “maybe there’s crystals there too!”

Stephen.6312:

The point is that all of these locations probably correspond to points along Tyria’s ley lines. They are points through which beings exit and enter.

Artificially made objects that are unrelated to each other would hold no correspondence with naturally occurring events unless said naturally occurring events are an effect by the cause which is the artificially made actions. However, in this case ley lines predate those portals, as they would predate those who made those models.

Stephen.6312:

Somehow, Scarlet may have been able to incarnate a Nightmare creature, possibly by diverting it’s entrance through The Portal To The Underworld using ley lines.

Definitely not. The Hyrbid looks nothing like a Nightmare. Nightmares look like shards of obsidian connected by black mist/fog. At least in GW2 (a far better appearance than the simple “black ghost/version of living counterpart” that was in GW1).

There has been nothing in the living story to do with the human gods and it seems unlikely that they will be shoehorned into it at this stage. Abaddon is not likely to be key to the story since the developers let us vote him out of it. It is quite possible that the alternate fractal would have introduced ‘chaos’ magic and ley lines as well, but we’ve got that info from the reactor and it’s done now.

We know that Abaddon gave humans the gift of magic. I would assume that means all magic, but I am unsure if that also means chaos magic. In the Thaumanova reactor Scarlet points out that Chaos Magic is basically dragon magic. And if that is the case, any link to the gods would seem misplaced to me.

Correction, Malafide: Abaddon gave multiple groups – both human and non – unique forms of magic per group. The Six Gods had, apparently according to McCoy, gifted magic periodically over centuries (presumably 205 to 1 BE with 1 BE being Abaddon’s “release it all!” act).

Chaos magic is likely amongst the magic Abaddon – and the other gods – had gifted, since supposedly most of the world’s magic (especially at the time) came from them unleashing it from the Bloodstone. There was some magic in the world already, likely what the Elder Dragons had consumed being released again (note: only records of magic outside the gods’ influence post-Bloodstone making pre-Bloodstone shattering is asura records never mentioned in-game, possibly Thruln the Lost’s claim of the norn receiving blessings from the Spirit of the Wilds, and the ritualists). Though chaos magic may have came specifically from Lyssa during her own attribution to gifting magic – if it was all six, and not just “some of the Six but more than just Abaddon”.

But what about Chaos Magic being Dragon Magic?

As I pointed out in another thread recently, technically speaking all magic in Tyria can be argued to be or have been dragon magic. For millenia the Elder Dragons had devoured all magic and over their hibernation periods, released it into the world – intentional or not.

If “dragon magic” is simply defined as “magic that’s been within an Elder Dragon” then all magic constitutes as this. If “dragon magic” is defined as corruptive magic expunged from the Elder Dragons, then chaos magic isn’t dragon magic, as it doesn’t corrupt. It does have similar attributes though, as it alters reality.

It really depends on how one defines dragon energies – and Kudu seems to define it as the latter of the two above. Which means Scarlet isn’t saying “chaos magic = dragon energy” (otherwise she’d simply be wrong) and Kiel is right (Inquest began studying chaos magic, but then delved into dragon energy), or the Inquest and by extension Scarlet had mistaken dragon energy for chaos magic.

For clarity, when we talk about Chaos Magic, are we talking about the sort of mesmer magic that creates a spell like Chaos Storm?

I don’t think there’s any other kind of chaos magic, TBH.

I would like to make a small annotation on one of Konig’s statements.

You state that all magic has been through the dragons at least once, and I just want to note that we are saying all Tyrian Magic. The magic of the gods is divine and most likely has no relation to the Elder Dragons, unless more information comes out on the subject.

That’s an arguable point given the nature of the Eye of the North facets – stated by Jeff Grubb to be seen as the way they are due to them being reflection of the power the Six Gods drew upon.

Though this may simply go as far as them using Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone(s) before leaving the world.

Which would be why I stated “unless more information comes out on the subject.” That we know of currently the gods had little interaction with the dragons, and that interaction was accidental. And seeing as their time on Tyria comes after the last Awakening, it is likely that their magic has little to no correlation. I’m always up for more information on these origins though, as soon as ArenaNet comes to them.

Technically, their time is only confirmed to be after Glint having undergone that ritual by the Forgotten. The Six – or some of them – could have showed up on Tyria while the ED were awake. Though it’s unlikely, but it would explain why humanity was sent south after being brought to the world at Arah.

Fine, but their existence as gods before arriving lends credence to their magic likely originating from another source. And likely, should a large source of magic appear before the dragons went into hibernation, you would think it would cause the dragons to try for one last meal.

Well, if you think about it… Glint was freed by the Forgotten in Arah – the Altar of Glaust was not moved, by the sounds of the dialogue, and per the Orrian History Scrolls in Shelter Docks, Dwayna arrived on an already-partially(?)-built Arah. The former signifies that Zhaitan was not in Arah at the time of Glint’s obtaining free will, as why would the Forgotten perform such a ritual on Glint in the heart of Zhaitan’s territory – it instead implies that Arah was part of Kralkatorrik’s domain (the existence of Kralkatorrik’s blood in the Crystal Desert that Glint had collected for the thousands of years since the ED’s hibernation implies that the Crystal Sea was also Kralk’s domain) – yet Kralkatorrik fell into hibernation in the now-called Blood Legion Homelands.

It is possible that the Elder Dragons – or at least Zhaitan – had moved to Arah in the final years of the Elder Dragons’ activity in search for magic to feed on – be it the Bloodstone or the Six Gods. The centralization around Tyria (three in the continent, possibly four, and one nearby to the north with only one not nearby) would support such as well.

Just theorycrafting though. But the history of Glint does heavily imply that Zhaitan was more mobile last time than he is this time.

Zhaitan’s immobility is probably not so much forced, but based on the fact that there is so much concentration of magic in Orr that he doesn’t need to move. I mean almost 100 years after he awakens we still see him finding artifacts in Orr to consume.

I wasn’t stating that Zhaitan was being forcedly immobile. It’s the seat of his power this cycle, having only enough grasp outside Orr to reach the Ring of Fire and northern Elonian border. Where else is he to go without putting himself on the front lines or in enemy territory?

Same goes for the other Elder Dragons – they’re all remaining within their territories, using minions as vanguards and moving about within occupied lands. Only Kralkatorrik is an exception, and he had a reason that no other Elder Dragon had: hunting down a traitor.

6 Dragons. 6 Eyes. Coincidence?

Oh lord…………….

Zaxares.5419:

6 Dragons. 6 Eyes. Coincidence?

Half Life 6 confirmed?

It’s quite obvious what the significance of the number 6 is to be. You see, if the five gods did not bless our characters in Nightfall than the Sixth God would have been capable of utilizing his most ultimate attack: each of the Six Elder Dragons coming forth from the Sixth God’s Six Eyes.

That’s right. Abaddon’s Six Eyes are channels for summoning the Six Elder Dragons.

Now instead we have replaced Abaddon’s 6 eyes with Kormir’s 0 eyes. This must be why the gods fully left. Each eye of Abaddon controlled an Elder Dragon, and without Abaddon around they had no way in which to control the Elder Dragons! This is why they didn’t kill Abaddon originally!

Hi guys,
I’ve read through most of the posts on here and noted that my original post may not have been clear enough to convey the most important point: Chaos Magic is an Asuran description of a form of magic. Scarlet states that this is a misnomer, so it is probably synonymous with something else. Whether that “something else” is Lyssa, Abaddon or otherwise I don’t really know. When I pointed out the role of the Zaishen Order, I was attempting to identify why the Asura would refer to the magic of Thaumanova as “Chaos Magic”. According to the Order, an aspect of the Eternal Alchemy is “chaos and strife” and the Asura may have used this to help identify the magic released at Thaumanova. Most of our confusion seems to arise from cross-religious references to magic. To illustrate what I’m trying to say, consider this: Lyssa has ties to a form of “chaos magic” – therefore, the magic of Thaumanova, described as “chaos magic” must be from Lyssa. Of course it could be, but not necessarily in it’s entirety. For starters, we’re dealing with more than just the magic of a human deity. I get the impression that the magic released at Thaumanova is “raw magic” that is not easily associated with any one being – even an Elder Dragon. It’s more of a bit of everything and may in fact truly be everything.

As to what is Elder Dragon magic and what is not, perhaps we could come up with a clearer way of understanding this? Would it be easier to say, for example, that the nature of magic is only truly identifiable upon the casting of a spell? I don’t know. I’m not too savvy on this but we should try to iron these things out…

On the association of Abaddon to what the Asuran’s call “Chaos Magic” I only did so because Abaddon had six eyes, the Margonites had six eyes; so too the Chaos Beasts affected by the magic at the Reactor Ffacility. Hence, it was reasoned that in some way the Chaos Beasts must be related to Abaddon. Given that some creatures (i.e. Skritt) are turned into Chaos Beasts when exposed to chaotic material from the reactor I understood that this meant that somehow magic originating from Abaddon (called “Chaos Magic” by the Asura, but not necessarily by the religious authorities of other races) was responsible for their creation, since Abaddon seems to have used similar magic to turn the Margonites into demons. Anyway, I’m not entirely convinced about the connection to Abaddon, but I like to keep an open mind…

I would say that the connection to Abaddon is non-existent only because of the appearance of the Shadow Army in GW1. These character models were all literally just white mantle models (armor and all) painted black with red eyes. Even though this happened, ArenaNet stated there was no connection, just re-use of old models. Now we come to GW2 time. The chaos beast is just a re-use of the Shade model which is a creature of the Underworld, not the Realm of Torment. Because of this, it seems very unlikely it could be tied to Abaddon, especially since players can summon them.

As to the magic. I don’t think that any of the magics came from the gods necessarily. Chaos magic, Illusion, and such just come naturally to the profession that was originally taught to early devotees to Lyssa. We’re not absolutely sure how the bloodstones worked, but one perspective has been that your mindset seems to determine the type of magic you can produce, in this case it would be the denial field of magic that mesmers are guessed at using.

I did just have an interesting thought that had never crossed my mind before, though, and if this hi-jacks your thread I will whole heartedly apologize and remove my post before creating my own topic. But we do not know exactly how magic worked in the past, before controlled and funneled through the bloodstones. In the past, different races seemed to have magical abilities different from each other, whereas now most every race can do the same things magically, it is just exceptional moments and individuals that do more. I just wondered about the possibility of the 4 fields of magic having originated from the magic of the 4 elder races that was trapped within the stone (as mursaat likely disappeared before having their magic stolen from them).

Hi Narcemus,
I’m still learning a lot of the Guild Wars 1 lore and made a number of mistakes in my original post. I appreciate the further clarification that you’ve provided me regarding the nature of the “Chaos Magic” released at Thaumanova. I may explore the model reuse argument as it relates to Chaos Beasts and Shades in the future, but for now am quite content to conclude that they are unrelated.

Hold your dolyaks, people. That the gods favored certain magical energies—and could contain and bestow them—are concepts independent from the origins of those magical energies.

We can manipulate rivers, but that doesn’t mean we invented water.

For all we know, the magic could have spilled out from an eternal Mystic Teapot orbiting the planet, long before the gods ever arrived to meddle on it.