Guild Wars 2

or maybe not. Regardless, i have two questions. The first would be if size is related with raw strength. For example, Norn are supposed to possess superhuman strength, but how strong are they compared with other beings of equal or superior size, such as the Jotun, Kodan or Giants themselves? The only article i happened to read talking about the Norn strength, was one where they mention that one Norn could take on one Charr’s warband by himself, or something along those lines.

Now my second question is how tall are certain races compared with each other. Let’s start with the Humans as being like 6’1" on average perhaps? I know that Norn are slightly taller than Charr, but Charr would be slightly taller than Norn if they happened to stand up straight, and i read that they are about 9ft although im unsure if that would be a small, average or tall size Norn. Im referring to size as height, focusing on the big guys and ignoring that there will be a difference between the male and female gender for each of the races. What i would like to know is how do Kodan, Jotun, Giants, Lupicus and Dragons compare with the big Norn? Is there any way (mentioned in the lore, or someone who tried to calculate it with game footage) we could know that? I suppose that the order goes like that, Norn – Kodan – Jotun – Giants – Lupicus – Dragons, but what’s roughly the gap between them? Also are Dragon Lieutenants (such as The Shatterer and Claw) smaller than the Elder Dragons (and if so, how much smaller) ?

On other note, for curiosity, which race would be smaller? Maybe the Asura, Dwarves, Quaggan or Skritt? And any small or medium size race that possesses an incredible amount of strength when compared with their actual size?

We don’t have any actual measure on comparative strengths between races. The norn-versus-warband thing you cite is more accurately a question of combat capability, of which strength is only a part.

Norn and kodan are pretty much of a height- my norn is as close to the middle of the height slider as possible, and is eye level with kodan, so I’d put them at nine feet, maybe nine-and-a-half given they have a bit of a hump. Jotun are roughly half again as tall as a norn, so that’d put them at thirteen to fourteen feet, probably give or take a couple. Giants I’ve previously eyeballed to be around 18-21 feet, but given the limitations of the in-game camera I don’t have much faith in that figure. Lupi I’m not even going to try to guess, beyond that it’s taller than a giant. As for lieutenants and such, a member of the community constructed this excellent comparison from data pulled from the game’s files (far right was a version of Zhaitan that was later scrapped). If you can find the original thread, or if someone else can point you to it, I believe he posted the dimensions of the models as well.

Smallest, I think, would be the skritt. Dwarves are a good contender for having non-proportional strength, since they are no longer limited by organic muscle.

Kodan are 10 feet tall on average – per The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan – norn average 9 foot, iirc (a head shorter than kodan).

As for physical strength being comparable to height – it’s less “height” and more “body mass” that is important. Naturally, having more body mass, larger races will be physically stronger than smaller races. Mechanically we won’t really see this though, because balance.

The Norn are supposed to possess superhuman strength beyond what their greater size and mass would otherwise suggest. Of course, as Konig mentions, you won’t see any of this in-game due to balance reasons. In “reality” though, between two equally skilled Warriors, an Asura would have zero chance of defeating a Norn in combat unless the Asura had some kind of extra advantage such as a Power Suit to make up for the Norn’s much greater size and strength.

Seconding what the other posters said, though wanna add another example.

In SE2, the Dredge you’re escorting carries rocks much bigger than themselves. That’s thumb-estimate and depending on the density of what exactly they’re carrying …anything between 2-3 tons. And that’s your average Foreman. Muscle density and energy matter (and another bazillion factors I’m leaving out for the sake of simplicity)!

Zaxares.5419:

In “reality” though, between two equally skilled Warriors, an Asura would have zero chance of defeating a Norn in combat unless the Asura had some kind of extra advantage such as a Power Suit to make up for the Norn’s much greater size and strength.

Intelligent and agile fighting also counts for something you know.

Diovid.9506:

Zaxares.5419:

In “reality” though, between two equally skilled Warriors, an Asura would have zero chance of defeating a Norn in combat unless the Asura had some kind of extra advantage such as a Power Suit to make up for the Norn’s much greater size and strength.

Intelligent and agile fighting also counts for something you know.

Is that why all fighting sports are dividing contestants by IQ and not weight?

Weight is easier to measure, and you’re certainly better off with strength than without – but fighting sports are filled with flyweights who’ve defeated heavyweights.

Possibly more significantly is that among the playable races, there does seem to be a rough inverse relationship between size and use of magic – and it’s been confirmed that even warriors use magic to augment their strength. An asura warrior certainly would not normally be a match for a charr or a norn – but an asura with with performance-enhancing gadgets built into his armour, technomagical boosts incorporated into his weapons and having imbibed some fortifying elixir of his own making may well be a match.

It’s worth noting here that asura warriors are still inventors like all other asura. It’s just that what they invent is better ways to be a warrior.

Well, with the flyweights who have defeated heavyweights, I’d argue that it was due to the fact that the flyweights were either more skilled than the heavyweights, or the heavyweights were simply unprepared to deal with the tactics used by the flyweights. (Which again, comes down to a disparity of skill and experience between the contenders.) All other things being equal, the bigger and stronger contestant will always win, and there comes a point where you’re simply SO big/strong that no amount of skill or technique will overcome it. It would like having a rabbit physically defeat an elephant in a fight. It just isn’t possible.

But yes, draxynnic’s second points are exactly what I was getting at. While the Asura Warrior might not have the raw brawn of a Norn Warrior, in-game, that same Asura might be augmenting his armor with magitech, or used some kind of super-strength serum he developed, which is why the performance of the two appears to be identical. But these are all external aids the Asura used to level the playing field.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kodan are 10 feet tall on average – per The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan – norn average 9 foot, iirc (a head shorter than kodan).

As for physical strength being comparable to height – it’s less “height” and more “body mass” that is important. Naturally, having more body mass, larger races will be physically stronger than smaller races. Mechanically we won’t really see this though, because balance.

It’s not even that simple. Strength to weight ratios can vary hugely between species and sexes, and even individuals in a species. Carnivores are typically much stronger, pound for pound, than herbivores.

Humans are exceptionally weak apes, even for their height and weight. An adult chimpanzee is about 5’6 and about 70kg; slightly smaller than the averge human. But they are much much stronger – some estimates have chimps being four times stronger than humans, and in a hand to hand fight no human could hope to match a chimp.

It wouldn’t be surprising for other humanoid races like Grawl and Dwarves to actually be stronger than humans.

The main advantages humans have in physical ability is endurance (especially long distance running), and coordination. Chimps, for example, are terrible at throwing things. You could never train a chimp to throw a spear or even a rock accurately. They just chuck stuff under-arm. Humans on the other hand excel at throwing objects, and running down their prey; overwhelming their enemies with numbers and hit and run tactics. In many ways humans hunt and fight like wolves.

Tom Gore.4035:

Diovid.9506:

Zaxares.5419:

In “reality” though, between two equally skilled Warriors, an Asura would have zero chance of defeating a Norn in combat unless the Asura had some kind of extra advantage such as a Power Suit to make up for the Norn’s much greater size and strength.

Intelligent and agile fighting also counts for something you know.

Is that why all fighting sports are dividing contestants by IQ and not weight?

I don’t remember any fighting sports that would include lethal weapons which may or may not be enhanced by magic/technoaether/spirits.

Ascimator.6735:

I don’t remember any fighting sports that would include lethal weapons which may or may not be enhanced by magic/technoaether/spirits.

And what exactly will stop norn/charr warrior from getting same enhancements (buy from asuran lab as example) and maintain their superiority over asura warrior?

Rednik.3809:

Ascimator.6735:

I don’t remember any fighting sports that would include lethal weapons which may or may not be enhanced by magic/technoaether/spirits.

And what exactly will stop norn/charr warrior from getting same enhancements (buy from asuran lab as example) and maintain their superiority over asura warrior?

Let’s assume that there are enough strength enhancements provided to both of them that they are roughly equal. The asura still is a smaller target.

Ascimator.6735:

Let’s assume that there are enough strength enhancements provided to both of them that they are roughly equal. The asura still is a smaller target.

Smaller means shorter range with weapons, weaker blows due to shorter weapon trajectory, harder to move around due to short legs, worse ratio body_weight/weapons+armor_weight (which means additional energy wasted or less weight can be carried), weaker natural damage resistance. There is a reason why almost no one heard IRL legends about mighty midget warriors.

Rednik.3809:

There is a reason why almost no one heard IRL legends about mighty midget warriors.

That reason would be that IRL dwarfism is a genetic condition, not the natural state of the race, derived from millenia of evolution and all.
Besides, “What if their weapons were equally strong and they fought 1vs1 on a flat plateau without any fancy stuff like ambushes and adapting their tactics against one another” is one thing and real combat is another. One solution to “what if the norn got some weapons from asura” scenario would be for the asura opponent to use some sort of a killswitch to disable the tech.

Theoretically speaking, also, what stops a warrior (or any other profession) from using all the engineer gadgets and elixirs and so on?

Regarding asura tech and gadgets specifically – asura are notorious for keeping their technology secret, from a paradoxical mix of paranoia about others stealing their inventions and an arrogant belief that no non-asura could understand how it works. Even when the asura are providing their tech to someone else, such as to the Pact or one of the nations, they also provide asura technicians so that it’s never operated by non-asura.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding asura tech and gadgets specifically – asura are notorious for keeping their technology secret, from a paradoxical mix of paranoia about others stealing their inventions and an arrogant belief that no non-asura could understand how it works. Even when the asura are providing their tech to someone else, such as to the Pact or one of the nations, they also provide asura technicians so that it’s never operated by non-asura.

Selling ready-to-use weapons and selling technology is different things. As example, we can see SE, where Inquest have no problems with selling their tech to dredge.

Also for killer-switch commentary above – it’s very unlikely that one asura will know security secrets of another. They not trusting each other.

Rednik.3809:

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding asura tech and gadgets specifically – asura are notorious for keeping their technology secret, from a paradoxical mix of paranoia about others stealing their inventions and an arrogant belief that no non-asura could understand how it works. Even when the asura are providing their tech to someone else, such as to the Pact or one of the nations, they also provide asura technicians so that it’s never operated by non-asura.

Selling ready-to-use weapons and selling technology is different things. As example, we can see SE, where Inquest have no problems with selling their tech to dredge.

Also for killer-switch commentary above – it’s very unlikely that one asura will know security secrets of another. They not trusting each other.

That didn’t stop Kudu from casually instakilling Mr. Sparkles in the personal story.

Ascimator.6735:

That didn’t stop Kudu from casually instakilling Mr. Sparkles in the personal story.

While being helpless during all other techno encounters. Like being unable to destroy protection in Toxic Waste room.

Rednik.3809:

Ascimator.6735:

That didn’t stop Kudu from casually instakilling Mr. Sparkles in the personal story.

While being helpless during all other techno encounters. Like being unable to destroy protection in Toxic Waste room.

You mean CoE story? I’m not sure he was personally present in the room. Even if the device was only used once, it still does prove that the asura warrior could reasonably disable the norn warrior’s asuratech weapons/armor.

Use a rifle, aim for the head… you know

Rednik.3809:

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding asura tech and gadgets specifically – asura are notorious for keeping their technology secret, from a paradoxical mix of paranoia about others stealing their inventions and an arrogant belief that no non-asura could understand how it works. Even when the asura are providing their tech to someone else, such as to the Pact or one of the nations, they also provide asura technicians so that it’s never operated by non-asura.

Selling ready-to-use weapons and selling technology is different things. As example, we can see SE, where Inquest have no problems with selling their tech to dredge.

I’d wager they weren’t giving the best they had to the dredge, though.

Ascimator.6735:

it still does prove that the asura warrior could reasonably disable the norn warrior’s asuratech weapons/armor.

Disabling a golem and disabling a weapon are different things. We cant see any examples of that in game.

draxynnic.3719:

I’d wager they weren’t giving the best they had to the dredge, though.

Things thought as best by asura are almost 100% experimental and certainly not ones you want to buy for yourself, if you care about your health.

Rednik.3809:

Ascimator.6735:

it still does prove that the asura warrior could reasonably disable the norn warrior’s asuratech weapons/armor.

Disabling a golem and disabling a weapon are different things. We cant see any examples of that in game.

We can’t see the asura mind-controlling an Elder Dragon in-game. That does not mean it’s impossible.

As for the Inquest+dredge dilemma, I’d say that:
1. Inquest might be too arrogant to be worried that these primitive mole-commies can copy their tech.
2. Killswitches.

Rednik.3809:

draxynnic.3719:

I’d wager they weren’t giving the best they had to the dredge, though.

Things thought as best by asura are almost 100% experimental and certainly not ones you want to buy for yourself, if you care about your health.

And yet, they could still give an advantage to the asura who designed it themself and is convinced it’s safe because it’s their own work and they’re not as fallible as all those other ignoramuses. And if there ARE any problems, well, they understand the risks and how to mitigate them.

Besides, as I noted before, pretty much this exact same argument could be made for engineer stuff being made available to all professions. It’s the engineer (or asura) that understands the equipment in question enough to keep it properly maintained and to make an informed decision of what risks are worth it. Others play it safe… especially if they recognise that whatever those asura warriors are doing to themselves is only bringing them up to the same level.

In regard to the Asura Warrior and Norn warrior discussion here:

Norn are certainly big and strong and powerful… But I’ve yet to see a single one of them perform a highly agile and acrobatic ninja flip when they dodge.

I’d also like to point out that max height Asura is almost half as tall as max height Norn.

Thanks for the replies guys. Unfortanely looks like the link that Aaron Ansari posted is broken? Didn’t work for me at least.

I really like about some anologies you guys came up (chimps, heavy and light weights and such), didn’t agree with some of those things but theres no need to argue about it, was enjoyable regardless.

Again about the size talk, did Arah a couple times and Zhaitan seems way bigger than Tequatl. Tequatl seems to be about the same size of your average big guy (height wise, maybe larger), like Wurm and Behemot. Speaking of that, is Behemot a singular being, or there are more like him? Because as World Bosses theres Wurm but also those 3more wurms in Bloodtide Coast, and then we have Dragon Minions, but aside that (from what comes to my mind right now) all seems to be creations like Inquest Golem or accidents like Fire Ele. Behemot is the only that seems like an actual creature, but i’ve never see more of his kind.

Hm… works fine for me. Maybe it’s just taking a bit to load? Anyway, it’s at the bottom of Zhaitan’s page on the wiki, if you want to get there manually.

For behemoth- no real reason to think it’s separate creatures, is there? I’m not surprised there’s not more of them- it apparently comes from the Underworld, and Godlost Swamp seems to be the only place messed up enough for something so large to squeeze through to Tyria.

Pokecenter.3548:

Thanks for the replies guys. Unfortanely looks like the link that Aaron Ansari posted is broken? Didn’t work for me at least.

I really like about some anologies you guys came up (chimps, heavy and light weights and such), didn’t agree with some of those things but theres no need to argue about it, was enjoyable regardless.

Again about the size talk, did Arah a couple times and Zhaitan seems way bigger than Tequatl. Tequatl seems to be about the same size of your average big guy (height wise, maybe larger), like Wurm and Behemot. Speaking of that, is Behemot a singular being, or there are more like him? Because as World Bosses theres Wurm but also those 3more wurms in Bloodtide Coast, and then we have Dragon Minions, but aside that (from what comes to my mind right now) all seems to be creations like Inquest Golem or accidents like Fire Ele. Behemot is the only that seems like an actual creature, but i’ve never see more of his kind.

If you’re referring to the Shadow Behemoth, he’s a large, I believe they’re called shades? There are small ones around Kryta, however he’s a particularly large one. So they say, he’s escaped the underworld and came to Tyria, that’s when we kill him before he becomes a problem!

Hypothetically, yes there are more of his kind, they’re just not a native creature, so you can’t expect an entire fleet of them, if so… Dhuum is probably coming too :P

Oh yeah, going directly to Zhaitan’s page on the wiki solved it for me, liked it.

I see, tho having Dhuum invading our gw world could be fun lol