Guild Wars 2

At the conclusion of EoTN we are told the dwarves went deep underground to combat the destroyers & Primordus after undergoing the Rite of Great Dwarf, turning them to living stone.

Hundreds of years have past & while there has been no presence of the dwarves minus Ogden in Arah, destroyers are practically flowing out from fissures of almost every zone throughout Tyria endlessly.

Is it safe to say then that the Dwarves have failed & or were defeated? They vowed to combat the destoyers & if the destroyers are practically washing over the landscape on the surface the only plausible conclusion would be that Dwarves failed.

We don’t really know. The majority of the remaining dwarves are presumed to be underground, and still fighting the destroyers, but it’s hard to say how many there are – I’m not even sure if the story is true. If they’re still around, it’s quite possible that there would be a lot more destroyers without them, but suffice it to say since there are no new dwarves but there are new destroyers, it’s a battle they’ll ultimately lose unless Primordus is vanquished.

What makes you think destroyers we are seeing up on (close to) the surface aren’t just a fraction of Primordus’ forces?

I believe you are confusing something.

The Dwarves turned to stone, by the rite of passage to defeat The Great Destroyer, The Great Destroyer as far as we know has been killed.

Destroyers still roam in Tyria’s underground, but they are controlled by their master Primordius.

Therefore they accomplished their goal, and thus did not fail.
Cheers!

we hope for the best, but we can’t tell. the depths are almost neverending, there wouldn’t be enough dwarves to hold them off.

they’re essentially buying us time, and considering that there aren’t thousands of destroyers bursting from the ground, i’d say they’re managing it. we get some stragglers every now and then, but that’s it.

It’s important to keep in mind even if all the dwarfs at the time of the ritual were alive and kicking down there I doubt they’d have enough dwarf power to completely block destroyer access to the surface. We do get destroyers on the surface but they are typically only found in areas / places where other races have tried to expand underground or initially sought them out, such as Skritt, Dredge, and Inquest.

I’d wager there is a good chance the dwarfs are still around keeping them in check, because so far we have not really seen a new dragon champion burst out onto the scene for them yet.

It’s not like we got a destroyer version of the claw to deal with ((unless I somehow missed it in one of the zones))

I really think we might not also know enough about the new dwarf physiology to even know if the destroyers can kill them?

I mean how do you kill a rock? They could be having tons of rock babies! How did the great dwarf make the original draws in the first place?

If the stone dwarfs are the great dwarf does that mean they could make more dwarfs like the original great dwarf did?

We just do not have enough information!

There’s a ‘mega destroyer’ i think in mount maelstrom. I’ve only done the meta event once, but there’s an inquest lab there, and i think that to keep the volcanism in check some asurans use some lasers to quell the lava. And then mega destroyer pops up

Karast.1927:

It’s important to keep in mind even if all the dwarfs at the time of the ritual were alive and kicking down there I doubt they’d have enough dwarf power to completely block destroyer access to the surface. We do get destroyers on the surface but they are typically only found in areas / places where other races have tried to expand underground or initially sought them out, such as Skritt, Dredge, and Inquest.

I’d wager there is a good chance the dwarfs are still around keeping them in check, because so far we have not really seen a new dragon champion burst out onto the scene for them yet.

It’s not like we got a destroyer version of the claw to deal with ((unless I somehow missed it in one of the zones))

I really think we might not also know enough about the new dwarf physiology to even know if the destroyers can kill them?

I mean how do you kill a rock? They could be having tons of rock babies! How did the great dwarf make the original draws in the first place?

If the stone dwarfs are the great dwarf does that mean they could make more dwarfs like the original great dwarf did?

We just do not have enough information!

first, destiny’s edge DID fight a champion of Primordus.

second, it’s estabilished in EotN that the ritual of the great dwarf was the ultimate sacrifice. they doomed their race to extinction when they did so. as for how do you kill a rock? you shatter it until it’s unusable.

they have not become the great dwarf itself. they’re one with the spirit of the great dwarf, which might not even be a literal dwarf, but rather a state of mind caused by the ritual.

the moment dwarves used the ritual, they became a limited supply. a dwarf dies, there won’t be a newborn dwarf taking its place in the future. however, that ritual strengthened both their bodies and their minds (as well as making them near immortal), which allowed them to fight the destroyers until (allegedly) the present day.

First off it has not been specifically state that the dwarfs cannot reproduce. You can making an assumption by saying “doom their race by extinction” they meant “unable to reproduce”

Abandoning your homes / cities / way off like to go off and fight a near impossible enemy with no assistance sure looks like doom.

At the time of the ritual no one else was around to face the threat, there was no pact, and no real means of forging one, so going off to fight the destroyers on their own looked like an impossible task.

For all we know dwarfs are humming merry toons while hammering the heck out of destroyers and popping out stone babies as they go, waiting for us to get off our behinds, and head underground to help them.

I forgot about the champion in DE, the one in mount maelstrom I need to check out.

The lore on the dwarves after EOTN is vague, as is their current fate.

If desired they could easily become as big of a part of GW2 as they were in EOTN.

After having spending so much time in GW1 fighting alongside the dwarves I just found it upsetting so little was revealed about their current state in GW2.

I was REALLY hoping to learn more about dwarves from Ogden but he only has like 2-3 sentences of dialogue. Which I felt was equally frustrating. He is like one of the most knowledgeable beings in existence atm & we have so limited interaction from him.

The thing you gotta keep in mind is that the Dwarves pretty much considered what happened to be the end of their race. They may still be fighting as living statues, but even then living is a relative term. Their last great deed was to defeat the Great Destroyer, and having done that, they lack a purpose. They may still be fighting, but that could simply be because they have nothing else to do. But for the most part, I don’t think they care about Tyria any longer. The end came and went long ago for them.

ThiBash.5634:

The thing you gotta keep in mind is that the Dwarves pretty much considered what happened to be the end of their race. They may still be fighting as living statues, but even then living is a relative term. Their last great deed was to defeat the Great Destroyer, and having done that, they lack a purpose. They may still be fighting, but that could simply be because they have nothing else to do. But for the most part, I don’t think they care about Tyria any longer. The end came and went long ago for them.

nah, they’re too noble for that. they’re going out with style, and die martyrs, down to the last one.

Karast.1927:

First off it has not been specifically state that the dwarfs cannot reproduce. You can making an assumption by saying “doom their race by extinction” they meant “unable to reproduce”

Wow, and people thought that I was desperate for thinking sylvari might be able to reproduce, but stone dwarves?!?

Actually it was specified many times in Guild Wars: Eye of the North that by taking part in the ritual, the dwarves were ending their race in order to get rid of the Great Destroyer (which I did for them :P) So the dwarves are done for, no resurrection. As stated by the game itself.

Narcemus.1348:

Karast.1927:

First off it has not been specifically state that the dwarfs cannot reproduce. You can making an assumption by saying “doom their race by extinction” they meant “unable to reproduce”

Wow, and people thought that I was desperate for thinking sylvari might be able to reproduce, but stone dwarves?!?

Actually it was specified many times in Guild Wars: Eye of the North that by taking part in the ritual, the dwarves were ending their race in order to get rid of the Great Destroyer (which I did for them :P) So the dwarves are done for, no resurrection. As stated by the game itself.

… Actually. Ogden in Arah Explorable outright states the dwarves are still fighting Primordus.

I have the personal theory that we’ll be seeing dwarves, if not playable, then definitely playing a major part later on in the story when Primordus is added.

Simple theory, really – The Pale Tree and sylvari. Why can the same concept not apply to Stone Dwarves? The Pale Tree’s seed was created by the world, the dwarves are native to the world, the same theory that new dwarves can be created out of stone and infused with the souls of dead dwarves is a credible one – Similar to how they were created in the first place. There are parralels between what we know of the Great Dwarf and what we know of the Pale Tree, it is not outlandish to suggest the concept can be replicated. It would still be believable rather than ‘ripping off’ the sylvari concept. It would simply be expanding on the world’s own efforts to combat the dragons.

We have plant people, why not stone people?

The argument that dwarves are ‘too samey’ to a fantasy universe is a false one, seeing how they are -already- different by the virtue of being made out of stone, and being essentially sentient golems. And Arenanet -can- make them different to stereotypical dwarves if they want to, and I would personally love to see it. They already have their ‘enemies’ in the form of a potential resurgent Stone Summit and Dredge (Or Destroyers, like Risen are for sylvari), like Humans have Bandits and Centaur. Not to mention that dwarves being resurgent would -also- be bucking the stereotype in of itself.

Arenanet has also backtracked significantly on the issue of the state of the dwarves – It’s gone from “Extinct” to “Rumours they are about” to Ogden outright saying “They are fighting”.

Another crackpot theory of mine – Look at the world map, below the Deldrimor Front area. There is a blurred blob roughly the size of a capital city, in a similar location to where Thunderhead Keep was in GW1.

What can I say, I’m a dwarf fan. But having said that I wouldn’t mind it if they went out with style, or as a result of something any race would have been wiped out when faced with. Idea for that is all the remaining dragons at once mercilessly exterminating the dwarves, say they were freaking out that a race that was part of their defeat the last time is still about giving Primordus, one of the most powerful Elder Dragons, a migraine.

I think they never really changed the dwarf endangerment category. I believe the phrasing was ‘they are all but extinct’. Seeing as they were turned to stone, and they couldn’t reproduce, that technically means they are dead. But since they are also stone, they could technically live forever, as shown by Ogden.

There are only six places (that I know of – Kessex Hills, Harathi Hinterlands (personal story only), Brisban Wildlands, Dredgehaunt Cliffs, Lornar’s Pass, and Mount Maelstrom) in which the destroyers are breaching the surface – I think there’s a seventh in Timberline Falls but not sure; there’s also the underground dwarven village seen in Edge of Destiny though. Two of these places are tied to skritt, and two are thanks to dredge mining (Dredgehaunt and Timberline), and as said one’s in an underground dwarven village; in other words more than half of where the destroyers are breaching the surface is at underground tunnels.

Considering this is rather small amounts, and the strongest destroyer is the “megadestroyer” in Mount Maelstrom, which is far from on par to a proper dragon champion, this is a very small force of destroyers. Especially given that Primordus has been making minions for 200 years, not including any leftovers from the Great Destroyer’s killing spree 250 years ago.

So I do not think that the dwarves are done yet – I believe they’re still holding out, but that slowly more and more destroyers are slipping past them.

ThatOddOne.4387:

There are parralels between what we know of the Great Dwarf and what we know of the Pale Tree

What parallels are you talking about? The Great Dwarf is a collective consciousness that was, due to old tales being twisted into myths, believed to be a god. The Pale Tree is a single entity.

ThatOddOne.4387:

Arenanet has also backtracked significantly on the issue of the state of the dwarves – It’s gone from “Extinct” to “Rumours they are about” to Ogden outright saying “They are fighting”.

All uses of calling dwarves extinct has been a subjective view or metaphorical use for “is dying out” or “never seen anymore.”

Most individuals don’t know Ogden’s still around, so only the Durmand Priory knows what he knows, and those who are affiliated or around them, such as the dredge. Its not really backtracking.

I know people say the “classic” races are not original and that like the Dwarves they are happy to see they are being killed on in GW2, I honestly like the Dwarves as a race for any high fantasy RPG so I hope they don’t kill them off, I don’t mind they aren’t playable in GW though. I feel the Norns are almost like replacement for the Dwarves in GW2 lore only because they share a lot of the same traits of Dwarves. They are taller of course but they are also big, mostly bearded and strong so maybe they are somewhat of a replacement for the Dwarves. Something to certainly think about.

The only similarity with dwarves norn have is crazy facial hair (but women norn lack such unlike dwarves) and enjoy ale. Dwarves aren’t crazy about legends and norn don’t tinker with machinery or mining. Charr are closer to a replacement for dwarves, since they too like ale, their females have hair, and they’re big on tinkering with machinery.

Yup, charr=war dwarves.

About the only correlation between dwarves and norn is that Norn are great armor/weaponsmiths. (and crazy facial hair)

I’ve made a comparison of the the old and new 5 races on GW2 guru already, but I think I share it here too:

Humans – Forgotten: Worship the Six and were once a dominating race, later pushed back into a melting pot

Charr – Dwarves: 2 Factions in a civil war, have access to magic, they rather use blackpowder, alchemy and steam though.

Asura – Mursaat: Master of magic technology (Golems- Jade constructs/soul batteries – some asura energy storage devise, I bet they have some :P), but also arrogant and think of themselves as superior to everyone.

Norn – Jotun: Love a good fight and like to stay individual, though they Jotun have taken it to extreme by being xenophobic to even their own kind.

Sylvari – Seer: The most mysterious and alien, both have no real genders.

IF we see the “dwarves” I think It would be cool. Would rather play as one of them but still…

@Buddhakeks: Though if one were to look at the scholar experts who’re studying those ancient races you get…

Sylvari=Forgotten – both work with balance (according to the kodan the sylvari do at least) and hold means of anti-corruption (the forgotten had weapons that couldn’t be corrupted, I hear, and they had spells to remove the mental links of corruption)
Human=Seers – both work well with magic, and are a falling race during the ED rise (the forgotten fell much much later)

And the other three as you said. Though arguably all races (sans dwarves?) were magitechnologically advanced, with jotun said to be the most so (magitech wise, I presume jotun and asura were closest, but culturally, I presume jotun and norn, and mursaat and asura).

True, it’s not a 100% match. I still think Sylvari-Seers and humans – Forgotten works a little bit better, you could for example argue that Seers are also into preventing corruption, as they stored all uncorrupted magic, while forgotten, like humans were at war with the charr once.

Well it’s just food for thoughts.

As a new player to the GW Universe (I just purchased GW2 yesterday during the Amazon Christmas sale), I really appreciate the insights and discussions shared here, as I like delving into the lore-side of games I play. Very interesting discussion, I’d say a future role for the Dwarves, perhaps even as playable race, has been convincingly argued for, and is something for my part that I’d definitely like to see.

Saying the seers are preventing corruption is a big as all hell stretch. Because they didn’t prevent corruption, they starved their enemy.

Do we actually knows what turning into stone actually does to them. I mean simply turning into stone doesn’t seems like much of an advantage to warrant dooming your entire race. Perhaps they regenerate from injury or death unless totally destroyed. That would explain how they last so long considering that the stone dwarves aren’t really that tough the last time we saw them in gw1. They meant to fight eternally like the Ascalonian ghosts.

I really wouldn’t consider how strong allied NPCs are compared to enemy NPCs as lore. For mechanical (aka playing) purposes, they’re made weak – this is to help prevent players from just afk’ing fights, and to give players an actual advantage.

The advantage is probably that stone is more durable than flesh, and they probably don’t age. Mind you, we can’t be certain, however we do know they live longer – Jalis Ironhammer in GW1 is at an old age and is ~120 if I remember correctly (certainly younger than 200), yet in GW2 there are dwarves still living as stone – so it definitely expanded their lifespan by over 100 years regardless of other advantages.

I think that turning to stone makes them functionally immortal to where things such as age and disease have no effect. I’d also image that loosing limbs probably doesn’t have the same effects as a flesh and blood being.

exelion.2369:

I think that turning to stone makes them functionally immortal to where things such as age and disease have no effect. I’d also image that loosing limbs probably doesn’t have the same effects as a flesh and blood being.

I have to agree with this. Most likely the only way to really kill a stone dwarf would be to reduce them to dust or find some other way of destroying them.

Well, I do remember the storyline of EotN itself saying that our players didn’t believe the stone dwarves would hold out much longer against the threat of the Destroyers. That would be the reason behind why our group attacked the Great Destroyer alone and left the GOLEM’s behind to help the dwarves hold back the destroyer onslaught. Obviously since that point in time though, the dwarves have all undertaken that ritual and their numbers will have increased greatly compared to just their front line soldiers.

ThatOddOne.4387:

Simple theory, really – The Pale Tree and sylvari. Why can the same concept not apply to Stone Dwarves? … the dwarves are native to the world, the same theory that new dwarves can be created out of stone and infused with the souls of dead dwarves is a credible one – Similar to how they were created in the first place….

We have plant people, why not stone people?

The argument that dwarves are ‘too samey’ to a fantasy universe is a false one, seeing how they are -already- different by the virtue of being made out of stone, and being essentially sentient golems. And Arenanet -can- make them different to stereotypical dwarves if they want to, and I would personally love to see it. They already have their ‘enemies’ in the form of a potential resurgent Stone Summit and Dredge

Not to mention that dwarves being resurgent would -also- be bucking the stereotype in of itself.

Arenanet has also backtracked significantly on the issue of the state of the dwarves – It’s gone from “Extinct” to “Rumours they are about” to Ogden outright saying “They are fighting”.

Look at the world map, below the Deldrimor Front area. There is a blurred blob roughly the size of a capital city, in a similar location to where Thunderhead Keep was in GW1.

This is a great a explanation that I will happily advance in hopes of seeing the Dwarves make a comeback

“In 1078 AE, the first of the Elder Dragons to awaken, Primordus, began to stir. Its greatest champion, the Great Destroyer, and its destroyer army swarmed the Depths of Tyria, driving the asura to the surface and destroying multiple underground civilizations. The asura refugees united with the dwarves, as well as the norn and Ebon Vanguard, to strike at the heart of the destroyer army, defeating the Great Destroyer and delaying the awakening of Primordus until 1120 AE, but at the cost of the dwarven race, who underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf in order to suppress the destroyer forces. To this day, the transformed dwarves fight them in the depths so that the surface may be spared, although in recent years small groups have made it to the surface world. "

Straight out of the GW2 Wiki.
Here’s the link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

The dwarves are still stone, down there duking it out with the Destroyers, stemming the tide of molten madness trying to claim the world.

Resolved. For now…

BrunoBRS.5178:

first, destiny’s edge DID fight a champion of Primordus.

I’d like you to cite this for me, because from what I can tell about the lore, they have done no such thing.

Destiny’s Edge did fight Kralkatorrik, this would be the fabled fight where Logan turned tail, and Snaff was tragically killed, thus ending the reign of Destiny’s Edge.

However, from all the lore referring to Primordus, we can piece together that after the Great Dwarf (by that I mean our stony ascended little buddies that this whole thread is about) defeated the Great Destroyer, it struck a great blow to Primordus, who is now deep underground- tunneling a kingdom and raising an army of destroyers.

So I doubt that DE faced a champion of Primordus, who’s biding his time underground, sending out waves of destroyers that our immortal dwarven buddies are all but reducing to nothing.

Thanks Dwarves, couldn’t do it without ya!
(Don’t listen to the OP little buddies, he didn’t realize you were still fighting for the freedom of all of Tyria)

In the book Edge of Destiny, they fight pretty much a champion of every dragon. I believe it goes Jormag, Zhaitan, Primordus, and then finally trying to take Kralk out

They fight the Destroyer of Live, near Rata Sum and defeat him buy firing his own primordal fire back at him.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroyer_of_Life

Captain Maugrymm.1753:

BrunoBRS.5178:

first, destiny’s edge DID fight a champion of Primordus.

I’d like you to cite this for me, because from what I can tell about the lore, they have done no such thing.

Destiny’s Edge did fight Kralkatorrik, this would be the fabled fight where Logan turned tail, and Snaff was tragically killed, thus ending the reign of Destiny’s Edge.

However, from all the lore referring to Primordus, we can piece together that after the Great Dwarf (by that I mean our stony ascended little buddies that this whole thread is about) defeated the Great Destroyer, it struck a great blow to Primordus, who is now deep underground- tunneling a kingdom and raising an army of destroyers.

So I doubt that DE faced a champion of Primordus, who’s biding his time underground, sending out waves of destroyers that our immortal dwarven buddies are all but reducing to nothing.

Thanks Dwarves, couldn’t do it without ya!
(Don’t listen to the OP little buddies, he didn’t realize you were still fighting for the freedom of all of Tyria)

Edge of Destiny: Page 285 through 303

I could be wrong, but I believe that somewhere in the priory missions it is stated that the dwarves paid the ultimate sacrifice (death as I see it) in delaying? the Destroyers and that the only dwarf still alive is Ogden.

I feel like this topic is going in circles
Ogden is the only dwarf above the surface, the rest are below, and technically they’re all dead, since they can’t reproduce or age or anything really

So they aren’t dead then? Because the Priory missions strongly suggested they were.

Dwarves as they once were are gone forever, yes. They gave up the future of their race to invoke the Rite of the Great Dwarf, turning themselves to living stone and ensuring the fall of the Great Destroyer.

They are still to this day fighting deep under the surface of Tyria, stemming the flow of the Destroyer army, albeit they aren’t much more than immortal weapons.

So yes, THOSE Dwarves are still alive, and still fighting. Immortality does that.

However, the proud race of the dwarves has ended, the price paid to save Tyria from Primordus’ armies of destruction.

The ultimate sacrifice was the rite of the great dwarf.
The goal of the great dwarf rite was to stop the great destroyer. The great destroyer was stopped. So they didn’t fail. Those are in my opinion solid facts. However as for their faith there is a lot uncertain. I tryll think that we will see their faith. both in GW1 and in GW2 they had too much attention and love and the story hasn’t trully finished. But I also believe that we have to wait till we get to kill Primordus that we trully meet them again. So patience is the answer here I’m afraid

Direksone.3867:

So they aren’t dead then? Because the Priory missions strongly suggested they were.

If you talk to Ogden during that Priory mission, he state out says that he is the last dwarf aboveground and that all his brethren are underground busy fighting Destroyers.

The dwarven race, as stated above, is considered doomed by most scholars because they’re all made of stone now and not a ‘living’ race. It would be like if all humans were killed off, but some existed as Risen – they aren’t really human anymore, even if they aren’t really dead.

Son of Elias.5420:

Direksone.3867:

So they aren’t dead then? Because the Priory missions strongly suggested they were.

If you talk to Ogden during that Priory mission, he state out says that he is the last dwarf aboveground and that all his brethren are underground busy fighting Destroyers.

The dwarven race, as stated above, is considered doomed by most scholars because they’re all made of stone now and not a ‘living’ race. It would be like if all humans were killed off, but some existed as Risen – they aren’t really human anymore, even if they aren’t really dead.

Bad analogy is bad. The dwarves aren’t corrupted. Risen are. A better one would be if the Pale Tree (and the one Malyck was born from) were destroyed. There would be no new sylvari after that because they cannot breed and produce offspring of their own.

Standard undead would probably be an even better analogy.

Or Magonites – because what happened to Margonites is the same as what happened to dwarves, basically.

Alright makes sense! Well here’s to a future expansion that focuses on Primordus and we get to see and hear more about Dwarves not necessarely as a playable race that is.

Actually, there’s a specific Skill Point in Lornar’s Pass that specifically talks about the dwarves’ status. Yes, a good amount of them are dead and gone, but basically there is a handful remaining, most likely still fighting Primordus (thus why he hasn’t busted out of the ground yet).