Guild Wars 2

So, I am a little confused, and figured this would be the best forum to post this discussion topic.

Is the Living World a little behind the Personal Story? or do we just accept that the game lore is doing something really weird right now???

Hear me out for a second.

As per the Angel interview, we now know that the Mouvelian Calendar is synced up with our calendar, but next week the Living world update is based around Tequatl getting ‘Stonger’ (game mechanic wise, the World boss update we have been promised for forever) but lore wise, how? his master/creator SHOULD be dead.

To the contrary though, human characters are referred to as ‘The Hero of Shaemoor’ in the Living World events, so hence my thought that MAYBE the Living World storyline (greatly assuming/hoping there is one) is behind the Personal Story (that we have had since launch).

But, if the Living World is a continuation of the Personal story, and Zhaitan IS dead for the next update…. what is going on? does Teq, have a new master? did he take over Zhaitan’s position as the head of the Risen? and get a power upgrade? or should we just take this as a game update being presented as a living story update, simply to deliver something that has been promised.

Thoughts? Ideas?

did he take over Zhaitan’s position as the head of the Risen? and get a power upgrade?

I lean toward this as a strong possibility until we get confirmation.

Dustfinger.9510:

did he take over Zhaitan’s position as the head of the Risen? and get a power upgrade?

I lean toward this as a strong possibility until we get confirmation.

Do Elder Dragons get replaced like that?

Lostwingman.5034:

Dustfinger.9510:

did he take over Zhaitan’s position as the head of the Risen? and get a power upgrade?

I lean toward this as a strong possibility until we get confirmation.

Do Elder Dragons get replaced like that?

Unfortunately, there is no earlier precedent of Elder Dragons being killed. So basically we have no idea.

Probably just Tequatl becoming the most powerful of the undead now. It would be easier to explain as just an update on the boss mechanics if not for the fact that Teq is now the highlight of the update, which to me sounds like it’s part of the Living Story.

Well, we have no idea what happens to an Elder Dragon after death. Some of theorized that the magic remains and is reborn into a new Elder Dragon during the next cycle. Some have theorized that since their body is like a giant magical sponge, that eventually magic just seeps back from them into the world. A theory I would like to pose is that instead of the magic seeping back from Zhaitan into the world, it instead seeps from him into his minions. Thus the noticeable growth of regular minions from normal human height to norn height, and the very recent change in Tequatl’s fighting style. This would mean that we need to wipe out his minions fast, because they’ll just continue absorbing his magikittenil one of them starts reaching the level of a Demi-Elder Dragon.

Does Elder Dragon energy work that way? A direct feeder into his minions that is fundamental in their structure instead of being part of the Elder Dragon’s control over the minion?
I’m a bit new on lore but don’t all dragons absorb magic? It might be possible that Tequatl is just the biggest sponge there and would thus be able to absorb the largest amount of released magics.
At that do we know how magic Zhaitan had absorbed would be released? Would it only seep out but largely remained infused with the corpse, only degrading over time or would it be released into the world like a popping balloon?

Helrith.6472:

As per the Angel interview, we now know that the Mouvelian Calendar is synced up with our calendar,

Pfft, no it isn’t.

Angel’s blatant retcon only manages to screw up the “syncing” even more. They want it to, but it makes no logical sense. Here’s why:

1. The Mouvelian Calendar has no months.
2. The Mouvelian Calendar has perfectly even seasons of 90 days (or rather, did prior to the extra five days in which their placement is unexplained).
3. The Mouvelian New Year is on Wintersday. However, while we get to experience Wintersday at our New Year, their new year/Wintersday does not occur in the middle of winter. Instead, it occurs at the end of winter – the first day of the year is long established since Day 1 of Prophecies’ release, to be the Spring Equinox. That’s the equivilant of our March 20-22 depending on which year.
4. Her “extra five days” BLATANT retcon does not account for leap year. Nor should it.
5. What about the day/night cycle experienced in game? That’s a four-hour long cycle overall. Are we to believe that they don’t count their days on the calendar by the sun’s rising and setting?

So there is no syncing. There never was. And unless we start having Wintersday in the middle of March and the day/night cycle changes, there never will be. And in doing so, they will utterly screw up the lore they claim to care so much about. And quite honestly, there’s no need to sync up our calendar with the Tyrian calendar, because let’s face it – if that’s the case, then why does everything happen in 2 week periods in lore?

But I digress.

Helrith.6472:

but next week the Living world update is based around Tequatl getting ‘Stonger’ (game mechanic wise, the World boss update we have been promised for forever) but lore wise, how? his master/creator SHOULD be dead.

To the contrary though, human characters are referred to as ‘The Hero of Shaemoor’ in the Living World events, so hence my thought that MAYBE the Living World storyline (greatly assuming/hoping there is one) is behind the Personal Story (that we have had since launch).

The Lost Shores content was stated by a dev (Matthew Medina) to occur post-Zhaitan. Flame and Frost and so forth obviously occur post-The Lost Shores. So the whole Living Story does indeed occur post-Personal Story.

The reason why NPCs refer to human characters as the Hero of Shaemoor and whatnot, is because Anet has the odd idea of creating a “parallel story” (Living Story) with events and actions that must occur post the “paralleled story” (Personal Story) – such as stealing 50k Pact Airships. Yet to do this, they must treat the PC like they’ve not yet defeated Zhaitan – unless they actually did. This means not doing things to NPCs that would make them feel unnatural to any point in the personal story – meaning Logan and Rytlock cannot get along… even though they’ve made up and put the smack down on Gaheron. And at the same time, they cannot treat Gaheron – or Zhaitan – as either living or dead.

Quite honestly, ArenaNet’s attempt at the Living Story – both their attempt to “sync up” with the real world’s timeframe, as well as their wanting a story that is “neither before or after” the personal story… really screws kitten up. It feels like they’re trying to make now four different story directions (personal, world, living, and dungeon) and have them all “happening at whatever order the player experiences them” despite the fact that only one (living), maybe two (world) gets expanded.

It really puts a clusterkitten in the lore’s chronology. What happens first? Scarlet or Zhaitan? Did the Pact form first, or did the Aetherblades steal ships from the Pact? You can literally experience Aetherblades before the Pact forms, thus the “new invention” of the Pact airships… already existed by the players’ experience? Wait, what?

So much for the care they put in their lore.

~_~

Lostwingman.5034:

Does Elder Dragon energy work that way? A direct feeder into his minions that is fundamental in their structure instead of being part of the Elder Dragon’s control over the minion?
I’m a bit new on lore but don’t all dragons absorb magic? It might be possible that Tequatl is just the biggest sponge there and would thus be able to absorb the largest amount of released magics.
At that do we know how magic Zhaitan had absorbed would be released? Would it only seep out but largely remained infused with the corpse, only degrading over time or would it be released into the world like a popping balloon?

Sigh I had written out a long reply, editing my previous post… only for it to be over the limit so nope all of it got deleted. To summarize my previous attempt at a response to this post:

1. As far as we know – iirc – Elder Dragons corrupt by consuming magic, twisting it, and sending it back. We know that they can actively and passively release magic – when done in the former, it corrupts (e.g., creation of the Dragonbrand), when done in the latter it doesn’t corrupt (e.g., the asura using magic from Primordus to power the first Asura Gate network).
2. Elder Dragons are always connected to their minions – some becoming more specialized than others. It is how they see, eat, and learn of the world. Furthermore, it is this connection which allows them and their minions to realize who is friend and who is foe – break the connection, and they view even others of their kind as enemies to be killed or corrupted (and naturally, you cannot turn a risen into a new risen) – this is how Destiny’s Edge killed the Dragonspawn in the novel.
   • It should be noted that the minions which Elder Dragons see and eat via are specialized as far as know (e.g., Mouth of Zhaitan, Eye of Zhaitan). Not ever minion can do this as far as we’re aware (and if they could, there wouldn’t be a need for specialized minions) – though the Elder Dragon knows everything their minions know.
3. The strength, self-will, and intelligence of a minion is determined by how much magic is sent back into the minion – the more corrupted magic, the stronger, smarter, and self-controlling it is (though all minions will be fanatically devoted to their dragon it seems; only through unique external aid can this be broken, like with Glint’s situation).
4. A minion’s connection to their Elder Dragon is sustained post-mortem, per the later personal story. However, if this is vice versa, is unknown. The Risen at least still believe Zhaitan to be alive.
5. While dragon minions “eat” magic for their dragon, we don’t know if they can become self-sustaining. All minions as far as we know survive because of their Elder Dragon. It is said in-game after Zhaitan’s defeat that the Risen are now incapable of making more of their kind, of spreading their corruption. While they may be capable of feeding off of Zhaitan’s corpse, based on what we’re told (which may be wrong; there’s no previous precedence for an Elder Dragon’s death that we know about) they cannot add to that corrupted magic – it’s a limited resource which will eventually disappate as more risen are killed.
6. Dragon champions are known to have magic retained in their bodies after death, so it’s likely in your last question that it is the former situation – that the magic slowly dissipates into the world from the corpse. If it was a sudden release, I would expect killing an Elder Dragon to be akin to killing a god (when killing Abaddon, his magic threatened to destroy the entire Realm of Torment and Tyria if not contained; and Kormir became that container).

Lostwingman.5034:

At that do we know how magic Zhaitan had absorbed would be released? Would it only seep out but largely remained infused with the corpse, only degrading over time or would it be released into the world like a popping balloon?

Just going off the Zephyrite short story about (what we can assume is) Glint’s corpse, I think we can assume Zhaitan’s corpse is still pretty full of magic, unless the fall, or someone “popped the Balloon” but in the case of of biggest “sponge” around, if I remember correctly there were quite a few other lieutenant/champion dragon’s flying around while people were spamming 2 at Zhaitain…. wouldn’t they have gotten the magic before Tequatl?

Basically, since posting this, I’ve just come to accept THIS PARTICULAR (caps for emphasis) Living World update, as ‘fluff’ for a long promised set of mechanics, those being the lfg tool, and updated world bosses, aaaaaand they just pick Tequatl because he has, in my opinion anyways, one of the more cinematic entrances…..

On the other hand: even though the Living World and how it is presented creates weird loopholes, such as what Koing brought up, “What came first, the Pact of the Aetherblades” and similar arguments, all and all at least it gives us all talking points, and ‘new’ content to play

Thanks for the responses.
Also yea…The Living Story vs Personal Story continuity bothers me as well.

Yeah, I was laughing when I finished the personal story again on another character and Logan was asked whether he would go back to his queen again, and he said not until the other dragons were dead. What happened though? Two months later he’s back at her side, lol.

You’re becoming bitter, Konig!

Personally, I’m leaning towards the theory that Elder Dragons can, and have, been killed and replaced in the past, similar to the way that the Gods can be slain and their mantles taken up by another. It may be that Tequatl is assuming Zhaitan’s mantle after his creator’s death, or perhaps Zhaitan’s consciousness has simply transferred into the most powerful of his minions after his death, which might make the task of killing an Elder Dragon truly impossible unless one were to somehow exterminate every single last Risen in the world in the process.

I lean toward that theory. And the fact that the ED’s power is spread out amongst their minions may account for their death not threatening the world when the power transfers.

^ above statements. we never knew what happens to elder dragons if they’re killed. zhaitan looked like a conglomeration of other smaller dragons formed into a single entity. Perhaps taco is starting his process into becoming an elder dragon himself and assuming the mantle of his master as the head honcho. which raises questions about ever truly exterminating all dragons from tyria period, as was the original goal of the pact. (kill all the elder dragons, problem solved and we can move on with our lives. nope.)

Sorry guys, but the whole Tequatl is the new Zhaitan argument just seems too cliché even for recent Anet storytelling…. other then the previously mentioned (and vastly confusing) discontinuity between various (types of) storylines within the game [i.e. Logan in personal story ending versus what he is doing in the living world] this living story patch is probably an excuse to update world bosses.
Plus, since this is a living story, we can assume Zhaitan will be treated as neither Alive nor dead, so the passing of the mantle so to speak probably isn’t the answer since very rarely in the living world have they made connections to you’re character’s accomplishments via the personal story, why suddenly start now??

Dragon Lieutenants can be freed from their masters, and with independence comes power.

I look to Glint for an example.

Zhaitan’s death probably freed Tequatl, but I’m also thinking it’s just Anet buffing a boss to a difficulty it should have been at from launch and forward. Better late than never, though.

Helrith.6472:

Sorry guys, but the whole Tequatl is the new Zhaitan argument just seems too cliché even for recent Anet storytelling…. other then the previously mentioned (and vastly confusing) discontinuity between various (types of) storylines within the game [i.e. Logan in personal story ending versus what he is doing in the living world] this living story patch is probably an excuse to update world bosses.
Plus, since this is a living story, we can assume Zhaitan will be treated as neither Alive nor dead, so the passing of the mantle so to speak probably isn’t the answer since very rarely in the living world have they made connections to you’re character’s accomplishments via the personal story, why suddenly start now??

aside from feeling like it’s cliche’, it would actually fit perectlly with treating the ED’s as neither alive or dead. Because Zaitan would still be defeated but the ever present threat would still be around.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So much for the care they put in their lore.

~_~

Starting to find this funny, now. Just the fact that this discrepancy is almost nonexistant on almost everybody’s radar.

Tequatl won’t become the new Zhaitan; ANet have already signed themselves up to flesh out five more Elder Dragons. Having a lieutenant take over the mantle of a fallen Elder Dragon would just… well, it’d be silly. They have more than enough to work with; possibly too much.

My opinion was never that any of the Lieutenants would become an Elder Dragon, persay. My opinion was that his power would channel into his minions, making them stronger and stronger. This makes it even more imperative that we finish off the risen for good, otherwise we will have some really strong enemies in the future, even if they aren’t the strength of an Elder Dragon. Something like this could very honestly be a part of the next part of the story before we move on to the next elder dragon. I mean we still have the cleansing of Orr.