Guild Wars 2

Does anyone else find it a little odd that, while 90% of the game is spend fighting undead and the “corruption” they spread across the land, necromancers are just sort of THERE on the good side with no justification other than the unspoken “Well, it’s a class, so it has to be”?

How are the Risen different from a Necromancer’s minions? Why is it that they are so terrible, while the Necromancer’s abilities and minions (which look a lot more gruesome than the Risen to) are just accepted as a thing that people do? Is the amount of power they have and the application of their abilities the only real differences between Zhaitan and Trahearne, or is there something else going on?

Certainly there must be answers to these questions… somewhere, and I’ve imagined a few myself. However, the game itself doesn’t provide them. I start up the game and see zombies and undead abominations being portrayed as the most vile, evil thing, and then I see a necromancer run into town and no one seems to mind. NPCs are frequently referred to as necromancers, but no one ever highlights what makes what they do different from the bad guys.

How are the destroyers and dragonspawn of jormag different than the Ele’s summoned elementals? I know there are differences of course, but do you understand my point? Necro’s have been doing their “thing” since before the dragons popped up. So I suppose it is a more a matter of the undead not being inherently evil, its more that they are a neutral force, and it is how they are used that determines how people feel about it. Granted watching a loved one be reanimated into a hideous flesh golem probably would hurt your relationship with said necromancer.

Ultimately I think it’s an odd choice to have the primary villain utilize this vast, evil, corrupting undead army and then have a character class that uses the same time of magic and not make nay attempt to describe how they are different. We just have to assume there’s something inherently different about a Good Necromancer’s magic that makes it so he doesn’t corrupt himself and everyone around him.

A lot of ways it could be reconciled. For instance, they could have stuck in a blip about your class into the cutscene at character creation that talked about how Necromancers were mistrusted and outcast until the threat of Zhaitan, and now their expertise makes them a valuable part of the resistance and then flavored NPC necromancer’s as such, I would have thought all-the-better about the class.

As is, there’s nothing.

This thread actually covers the general thoughts people have about necromancy as well as goes into what makes GW good-guy necromancer magic differ from Zhaitan’s undead:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Necromancers-why-so-rarely-used

Although risen are called “undead”, they are NOT undead in the traditional fantasy sense. They are dragon minions made out of corpses – dragon minions in of themselves are living bodies, or in some cases living elements, that got twisted by the element of the Elder Dragon and their personalities twisted profusely into fanatical worshipers (with slight twists dependent on which dragon they were twisted by).

Standard undead are, while minions, not twisted abominations; they are not fanatical, their personality remains untouched if advanced enough (if not, no personality at all it seems) though they sometimes do not control their own actions.

Dread.5963:

Ultimately I think it’s an odd choice to have the primary villain utilize this vast, evil, corrupting undead army and then have a character class that uses the same time of magic and not make nay attempt to describe how they are different.

See, this is where you’re wrong.

It’s not the same type of magic. They’re even made in completely different ways. And though it’s not openly explained – that lack of open explanation is actually part of the story. In modern times especially, necromancy is viewed in poor light thanks to Zhaitan. Even though the magic is utterly and completely different, even though the means of making “undead” and undead are utterly different, even though the outcome between “undead” and undead are utterly different.

And it actually is stated that dragon magic is fundamentally different than all other magic used – that’s actually one of the main plots of the Elder Dragons that is shown alongside the whole “dragons eat magic” aspect. It is most prevalent in Sorrow’s Embrace and Crucible of Eternity story modes, whereas the other is most prevalent in the personal story.

Dread.5963:

A lot of ways it could be reconciled. For instance, they could have stuck in a blip about your class into the cutscene at character creation that talked about how Necromancers were mistrusted and outcast until the threat of Zhaitan, and now their expertise makes them a valuable part of the resistance and then flavored NPC necromancer’s as such, I would have thought all-the-better about the class.

A problem with Anet is that they don’t include all their lore in the game.

However, the situation is the opposite of your explanation – it’s that ever since the Cataclysm and moreso since Zhaitan, though even beforehand as well but not as much, Necromancy has become untrusted among the non-sylvari. Simply because the commoner don’t know that there’s a difference.

It was the feel that Anet wanted to bring in – “why are necromancers trusted when we’re fighting all these undead?” – your reaction is more or less exactly what ArenaNet wanted, but they still provided us with “necromancy is different then the Risen” if you actually look in the right places.

Konig pretty much nailed it I think. One thing I’d add is that my necromancer never actually kills people expressly to make them minions, and any minions she makes are cobbled together from bits, almost like she had organ donors. It seems necromancers are more about using dead stuff and disease in a useful way, than creating undead armies by force ala Zaitan.

also, as far as I understand it, necromancer are not rising dead from the grave and use zombies/skeletons as minions, they rather utilize parts of dead bodies and flesh and making magical golems out of them.
There are some powerful necros that could raise a dead man as he was, but usualy they don´t do it. Then, you have liches as Palawa Joko (which is in Elona and not in the game yet), who is a very powerful necromancer and has an army of undead (in classical sense), but that´s a whole new story. I´m not a lore expert as I didn´t play first game and some of the lore is still eluding me and I bet Konig´d be able to go to detail with this (or say I´m wrong), but here are my two cents…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Although risen are called “undead”, they are NOT undead in the traditional fantasy sense. They are dragon minions made out of corpses – dragon minions in of themselves are living bodies, or in some cases living elements, that got twisted by the element of the Elder Dragon and their personalities twisted profusely into fanatical worshipers (with slight twists dependent on which dragon they were twisted by).

Standard undead are, while minions, not twisted abominations; they are not fanatical, their personality remains untouched if advanced enough (if not, no personality at all it seems) though they sometimes do not control their own actions.

Dread.5963:

Ultimately I think it’s an odd choice to have the primary villain utilize this vast, evil, corrupting undead army and then have a character class that uses the same time of magic and not make nay attempt to describe how they are different.

See, this is where you’re wrong.

It’s not the same type of magic. They’re even made in completely different ways. And though it’s not openly explained – that lack of open explanation is actually part of the story. In modern times especially, necromancy is viewed in poor light thanks to Zhaitan. Even though the magic is utterly and completely different, even though the means of making “undead” and undead are utterly different, even though the outcome between “undead” and undead are utterly different.

And it actually is stated that dragon magic is fundamentally different than all other magic used – that’s actually one of the main plots of the Elder Dragons that is shown alongside the whole “dragons eat magic” aspect. It is most prevalent in Sorrow’s Embrace and Crucible of Eternity story modes, whereas the other is most prevalent in the personal story.

Dread.5963:

A lot of ways it could be reconciled. For instance, they could have stuck in a blip about your class into the cutscene at character creation that talked about how Necromancers were mistrusted and outcast until the threat of Zhaitan, and now their expertise makes them a valuable part of the resistance and then flavored NPC necromancer’s as such, I would have thought all-the-better about the class.

A problem with Anet is that they don’t include all their lore in the game.

However, the situation is the opposite of your explanation – it’s that ever since the Cataclysm and moreso since Zhaitan, though even beforehand as well but not as much, Necromancy has become untrusted among the non-sylvari. Simply because the commoner don’t know that there’s a difference.

It was the feel that Anet wanted to bring in – “why are necromancers trusted when we’re fighting all these undead?” – your reaction is more or less exactly what ArenaNet wanted, but they still provided us with “necromancy is different then the Risen” if you actually look in the right places.

I knew they had thought this out but it’s good to hear how it really is. I still find it lacking that the resolution is so obscured in the lore of them game while Necromancer NPCs show up so frequently. From what I’ve played it was really only the Asura storyline that introduced the idea that dragons eat magic and that it’s fundamentally different early on. On my first character (a sylvari) I really had no ideas about how it might have been different until I realized Trahearne was a necromancer.

If they wanted to make the reason we have Necromancer’s on our side a serious question for characters that doesn’t get answered until later, like you say ANet wanted, they should have addressed it as a question by just having the PC or someone else ask the question in dialogue, so it’s clear that they realize it’s odd and are using it to create curiosity and mystery in the storyline, but when its not addressed at all and necromancers are just there it feels like a plot hole.

I do want to point out that in some societies Necromancers do play certain roles in the sort of Funeral Rites, because of their close connection to death. It is a creepy situation, but when it comes to death (although you want nothing to do with it yourself) you will trust those who spend their lives researching it.

And what would have happened for PCs who were necromancers… asking why necromancers are helping? Would have been weirder.

And the “dragons eat magic” thing was only presented as a theory in the asura storyline; it’s confirmed later on for all characters during the earlier steps of invading Orr.

I would like to mention something;

Dragons tend to corrupt the magic they interact with. An example of this, is Jormag corrupting Ice. Kalk corrupting Air and Earth Elementals, and so on and so forth. So Death, in a way, is also an element. And that’s why Zhaitan’s necromancy is different from Traherne’s, for example. In fact, you can actually draw the parrallel perfectly here, because Traherne is actually a Necromancer and a powerful one at that, yet he can still control his own minions when he needs to.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil

I feel this link is fitting for this topic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And what would have happened for PCs who were necromancers… asking why necromancers are helping? Would have been weirder.

And the “dragons eat magic” thing was only presented as a theory in the asura storyline; it’s confirmed later on for all characters during the earlier steps of invading Orr.

Again, addressing during the character creation video and then proceeding through the game as normal would have been fine, or having the question show up early in the personal story (it would have been nice, actually, if the personal story had another “chapter” unique to each class as well as race and faction). Have you never played a game/seen a film where the hero was not immediately trusted by everyone?

To reiterate:

I’ve gotten a satisfactory answer from the people who are more versed in the lore than I am as a new person to this universe. Good. I do still wish it had been addressed in the story. The whole “dragons eat magic” tidbit didn’t really answer the question when it came up.