Guild Wars 2

I’m not usually all that big on examining the reasoning behind illogical nonsense in fantasy settings, but the whole sylvari experience is so jarring that I feel like there must be something I’m not getting.

There’s all this focus on this mystical Centaur Moses tablet or whatever that was meant to be the inspiration for sylvari -being,- and the sylvari make reference to it constantly. I mean, the Nightmare Court EXISTS because they feel the sylvari need to reject Centaur Moses’ teachings and come over to Shaitanism or whatever. And yet the only tenet that it’s explicitly clear and possible to break,

IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed,

is violated -constantly.- I mean, apart from the fact that we ourselves as player characters slaughter people by the thousand just because, well, it’s inconvenient that they should exist (skritt stealing tools deserved to be butchered and have their homes collapsed? really?), Caithe is far and away the most overtly murderous NPC I’ve ever seen in an MMO. Christ, in one of the intro stories she -takes a man prisoner, pumps him for information in exchange for the promise of his life and then murders him so he doesn’t warn the others.- Seriously, Caithe? You didn’t think maybe you could put one of those empty prison cells in the Pale Tree to use? In another, she beats down a Nightmare Courtier and then checks to make sure the Courtier’s really, really dead, the implication sort of being that she slit the woman’s throat. This kind of behavior is reprehensible, and I get that MMOs aren’t really supposed to be, like, ethically sensible constructs, but why is so much time spent TALKING about ethics that are then flagrantly ignored? I get that Caithe is being super soggy about her converted girlfriend or whatever, but seriously? Does that mean she goes and murders the sand person village, and the women, and the children?

As far as I can tell, the Nightmare Court actually sticks by Centaur Moses’ tenets MORE than the Dreamers do. Most significantly, they don’t kill people, they reeducate them to their way of thinking (ie ‘all things have a right to grow’ rather than ‘we don’t like you so we’re gonna blend you’). I’m not saying kidnapping people and torturing them until they convert to your weird Sith religion is cool, but at least it’s showing some kind of respect for the other person to exist. Meanwhile the Dreamers gleefully murder any Courtiers they get their hands on, because—this is my favorite part, this here—“there is no cure once you have fallen to the Nightmare.”

Excuse me? Sylvari have existed for twenty-five years, yes? Assuming the Nightmare Court was spawned on sylvari hatching day, that’s given these people no more than a quarter century to attempt to “cure” Nightmare Courthood, as though political/religious affiliation were a disease. Let’s compare that to the amount of time it’s taken us to pursue cures for polio, rabies, HIV, schizophrenia, amputated limbs, blindness, deafness. Many of these ailments are still with us, and some make people dangerous to others in various ways, but does that mean we say “nah, there’s no cure, shoot ’em in the head?”

What is UP with the ethics of this game, basically? If you’re gonna have a product be about slaughtering countless stacks of dudes because you disagree with them, that’s fine, but to then ham it up about what tranquil and loving people you are puts you on the ethical level of a Saturday morning cartoon. Is that the truth of it? Is that the target audience here? Am I missing something? Some footnote that says “IV (Section 2): Unless you don’t like the weed, then stomp it out utterly, take no prisoners, salt the earth, and kill all sand people for what they did to your mother?”

Eesh.

It’s not like they just sit at their base chatting a[bout their nightmare. They actively seek to destroy the dreamers way of like. The tenet doesn’t seem to imply that they should turn the other cheek. For example there was a blog post concerning Cadyern, he wanted to destroy some drake eggs or whatever then another sylvari said that all things have aright to grow, so they didn’t kill the drake eggs because they weren’t a threat at the time, and they may not be a threat when they hatch.

You see the Nightmare Court actively seeks to undo the dreamers way of like and to turn their mother to nightmare every day. This is seen as a large threat to the dreamers, that if left unchecked, could be their end.

And the murdering of prisoners? And the writing off people who join the Nightmare Court as somehow “irredeemable?”

I think Ventari’s guide of having a right to grow refers more literally to growing to maturity than not killing.

That said if you’re sylvari and kill bear cubs, wolf cubs, or any baby animals, you should go give your mother ten hail marys.

That said it’s a cryptic guideling and like any cryptic religious text is open to interpretation by its followers. Its why there are Shiites and Sunnis and Catholics and Protestants. I’d see the interpretation of Ventari’s tablet by the Sylvari in much the same way.

crawlkill.6174:

And the murdering of prisoners? And the writing off people who join the Nightmare Court as somehow “irredeemable?”

That;s just Caithe right? Her lover fell to nightmare so i think she’s allowed to be bitter. I know cheap answer but that’s all I got. Most probably wouldn’t kill a prisoner
without good cause. As for not being able to “cure” the nightmare, it’s not really like a disease. I mean metaphorically it is, but the sylvari have yet to find a way to bring people back from the nightmare. So this is why death is the preferred option for keeping their numbers in check.

As for how this “disease” works, i’m not sure. it probably has something to do with the ever mystical dream. I’m not sure. but for lore purposes it seems irreversable.

You -can’t- cure the Nightmare’s corruption. If the Nightmare has corrupted someone, it’s better to end them than it is to let them free so they can continue to spread corruption.

At least if you destroy them, they can return to the Dream and won’t continue to spread their corruption to everyone else.

There’s a difference between killing something just because, and killing something that, if you don’t, will gladly kill you before you have time to even walk away.

The Sylvari seem to have a very strong streak of nature-style balance in them. All things have a right to grow, but they don’t have a right to grow forever or at the expense of other things. All things will die; its a point that nature does not tend to shy away from and neither do the Sylvari. There is a distinct difference between that and genocide, however, which would very much go against Ventari’s teachings.

The skritt have a right to grow, so the Asura are wrong for wishing them out of existence. But that doesn’t mean that killing a few skritt are out of the question.

Do we consider the cat evil for torturing the mouse it will later eat? Do we consider the bear cruel for smashing apart the structures bees have toiled to build for so long? Not really.

Nature can be cruel in a naive and innocent sort of way. The Sylvari are very reflective of this despite aspiring to a loftier goal.

Here’s my take on it: the Ventari Tablet presents an ideal that Dreamer sylvari think they should live up to. The Courtiers outright reject it on the grounds that it holds the sylvari race back, limiting what they can be. There’s definitely a logic to it, in a kind of rebellious teenager way: why should some dead centaur dictate how we should live?

But that doesn’t mean Dreamers embody this ideal perfectly. Many of them will fail to live up to it from time to time, find themselves prejudiced or angry. Many of them fall to the Nightmare because something bad happens which they just can’t let go with “all things have a right to grow.” Think about Caithe – she’s lost Faolain, lost Destiny’s Edge, lost so many things in her life. She can be expected to have doubts and resentment, which makes her vulnerable to the Nightmare.

But! – Nightmare is insidious. You don’t necessarily just choose to be evil. The Court get their way if the Dream is corrupted. If someone like Caithe is basically going the Star Wars path – "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering – she can be feeding the Nightmare without ever giving up the Dream. She’s slipping. I assumed they portrayed Caithe as rather too harsh (and had our characters pull her up on it) deliberately, to highlight this problem. To fight the Nightmare, you end up feeding the Nightmare.

Yata.8932:

For example there was a blog post concerning Cadyern, he wanted to destroy some drake eggs or whatever then another sylvari said that all things have aright to grow, so they didn’t kill the drake eggs because they weren’t a threat at the time, and they may not be a threat when they hatch.

Krait were nearly the victims, however the rest is pretty spot on.

“Children.” He frowned, for the word had little meaning. “You mean ‘they are small.’ They are small, but they are krait. They will grow up to be large krait, and then we will kill them. Why not kill them now, when it is easy and they are undefended? It seems the wisest course of action. Otherwise, we risk losing more sylvari lives when these return fully grown.”

Sylvari never have dealt with childhood and the vulnerabilities of it. Yes they are in the pods and hatch fully grown, but the closest they’ve had to having children get hurt would be the Nightmare Court corrupting the Dream.

At the moment there’s no way for a Courtier to reform so they either die or still be a threat to the Pale Tree and the Dream.

They’re pretty hypocritical, but that tends to come with tunnel vision. Arguably, the entire race exists as a brainwashed hive mind, though the Nightmare Court is worse even though they recognise that Ventari’s teachings may not be all that.

Saying “you can’t cure Nightmare corruption” is ridiculous. Again…does the real world give up on the ill, mentally or otherwise, after twenty-five years? It’s clear the sylvari DO see Nightmare membership as an illness. Its being irreversible is just some fiat declaration to make it okay to murder them by the M&Mly handful (and you can just bet there’ll be “redeemed Nightmarers” showing up somewhere down the line, since no nerd can resist the temptation to reenact Drizzt).

It’s really kind of ambiguous to me how the relationship between Dreamers and Courtiers has come to be what it is. Courtiers convert Dreamers, but Dreamers just murder Courtiers, and we see frequently that Courtiers recruit through persuasion just as they do through, uh, hands-on methods.

I don’t know. It all just seems pitched at that grade school level. “THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS WE ARE GOOD SEE WE BELIEVE IN CENTAUR MOSES.” Then any act is suddenly excusable, because, well, every eight-year-old knows you have to shoot the bad guys til they fall down.

Corruption in this setting, with very few exceptions, is something that cannot be reversed easily, if at all.

You can’t cure Nightmare corruption. You can’t. It’s been stated, flat out, in the lore.

You can’t. The end.

crawlkill.6174:

Saying “you can’t cure Nightmare corruption” is ridiculous. Again…does the real world give up on the ill, mentally or otherwise, after twenty-five years? It’s clear the sylvari DO see Nightmare membership as an illness. Its being irreversible is just some fiat declaration to make it okay to murder them by the M&Mly handful (and you can just bet there’ll be “redeemed Nightmarers” showing up somewhere down the line, since no nerd can resist the temptation to reenact Drizzt).

It’s really kind of ambiguous to me how the relationship between Dreamers and Courtiers has come to be what it is. Courtiers convert Dreamers, but Dreamers just murder Courtiers, and we see frequently that Courtiers recruit through persuasion just as they do through, uh, hands-on methods.

I don’t know. It all just seems pitched at that grade school level. “THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS WE ARE GOOD SEE WE BELIEVE IN CENTAUR MOSES.” Then any act is suddenly excusable, because, well, every eight-year-old knows you have to shoot the bad guys til they fall down.

Who says they gave up? They didn’t just try once and said ‘Oh well lets just kill them!" I believe they said they haven’t found a way yet , implying that the menders are still trying to find a way to reverse this process. However you can’t just sit back and let the nightmare grow while they speculate how to fix it.

As for their methods, the court uses persuasion to raise seeds (no pun intended) of doubt so that the dreamers will join them, and this works. But, the dreamers have more than likely tried to use rational persuasion as well and that has apparently never worked.

And it’s not like they send raiding parties out to nightmare camps to kill them en masse… Usually the court provokes something.

Edit: The nightmare corruption is not the flu. They say it is an illness metaphorically.

The principle of ‘Everything has a right to grow’ is closer to ‘Everything has a right to have a chance in life’. The concept is that things should be judged by what they do not what they are. It means that rather than kill a krait because its a krait you should allow it to choose first if it can live in a way that coexists with others.

In this regard the Sylvari are pretty good at keeping to the tenent. In general the Sylvari only kill foes that are hostile to others. Hostile skritt in the game as a rule ambush and rob people on a regular basis. Also Im pretty sure that we dont have cases of Dreamers killing indiscriminately.

The same cant be said for the Nightmare Court. Currently in Lore I dont know of a single case of one of the Nightmare Court being ‘cured’. On the contary, a number of them have commited acts so bad its cut them off form the dream competely and so they have to torture others to effect the dream. The Nightmare Court doesnt just kidnap people. They engage in wanton slaughter and murder.

We cant be sure about the corruption of the Nightmare. The Pale Tree seems to feel its not possible to come back from it and as the one most strongly connected to the Dream she is in the best place to know. Also note it isnt something she is happy about. She is literally their mother.

As for Caithe I think she is perhaps about as pragmatic and borderline to the Nightmare as a Sylvari can get. Its probably as much her introspection and dedication to her duty that keeps her from being like lover.

In short the teaching ‘Everything a right to grow’ applied to other Sylvari means that any Sylvari has a right to chose its path. Not the Soundless are respected and protected somewhat by the Dreamers (its a warden who gives the heart to strike at the nightmare court harrasing the Soundless). The Nightmare Courtiers chose a path that does not allow mutual coexistance.

crawlkill.6174:

Saying “you can’t cure Nightmare corruption” is ridiculous. Again…does the real world give up on the ill, mentally or otherwise, after twenty-five years? It’s clear the sylvari DO see Nightmare membership as an illness. Its being irreversible is just some fiat declaration to make it okay to murder them by the M&Mly handful (and you can just bet there’ll be “redeemed Nightmarers” showing up somewhere down the line, since no nerd can resist the temptation to reenact Drizzt).

It’s really kind of ambiguous to me how the relationship between Dreamers and Courtiers has come to be what it is. Courtiers convert Dreamers, but Dreamers just murder Courtiers, and we see frequently that Courtiers recruit through persuasion just as they do through, uh, hands-on methods.

I don’t know. It all just seems pitched at that grade school level. “THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS WE ARE GOOD SEE WE BELIEVE IN CENTAUR MOSES.” Then any act is suddenly excusable, because, well, every eight-year-old knows you have to shoot the bad guys til they fall down.

Your understating how insidious the Nightmare Court is and how much of a threat they are to the Dreamers. The Courtiers do kill Dreamers and anyone else on a regular basis. They are seeking to fill the dream with so much pain that it basicly corrupts the minds of other sylvari regardless of what they want.

The Nightmare Court started the fight. They are the ones that attacked the Dreamers. In general the Dreamers let people pick their own path. Infact, picking your own path in life is something frequently said by sylvari. The Nightmare Court is frequently been attacking, murdering and kidnapping other sylvari. For the Dreamers to not act against them would be downright stupid.

What would you have the Dreamers do? Its pretty clear the Nightmare Court is too big to just ‘imprison’ since its even in open war the Dreamers havent been able to stomp them out. There is certainly no indication that anyone can come back from the Nightmare. Certainly Im unaware of anyone successfully doing it in lore and its been tried several times. They certainly cant leave the Nightmare Court to do want it want considering its actively attacking other sylvari.

This is a short story from the Cycle of the Night when Arena Net introduced the Sylvari long before beta was even announced. It explains about “All things have the right to grow.” This excerpt applies only to children.

Source: http://www.arena.net/blog/dream-and-nightmare

Despite the signs of long-ago death, the slumbering ruins felt somehow alive; the hush and whisper of tide below the cliff rising and falling like a sleeper’s breath. Something low and shadowy, stinking of brine, cast a slender shadow among the crumbling rocks. Cadeyrn watched it pass between the tilted walls and fragmented arches that must have been a chapel. Saw it flicker where an altar once stood. Marked where the shadow vanished away.
“Are you prepared?” Niamh murmured softly behind him, her frond-like hair rustling in the cold breeze. She drew her sword and checked its edge, finding it keen. Eager silver eyes met his dark gold gaze. “It is time to strike.” Two others of an even younger generation than Cadeyrn stood with her; both, like them, members of the Cycle of Noon.

Cadeyrn stepped away from the little ledge on which he’d been crouched. “They are ready for us. We must move cautiously.”

Together, they crept down onto the beach and into the ruins, and there, they found their quarry. Cadeyrn’s sword cleaved a krait in two with a single stroke. He spun the weapon expertly behind his back, blocking another creature’s claw before snapping down to slice away the extended hand. A krait sorceress’s unblinking eyes widened as she wove a thaumaturgic web of slaughter, and two of the sylvari died in her flame. Fiercely, Cadeyrn leapt[sic] toward her, his blade tearing through the krait’s flesh.

He left nothing behind but scale and scream.

When the krait were dead, Niamh and Cadeyrn stood in the center of the ruined chapel, blood on their blades and fierce smiles lighting their faces. A sound caught his attention, and he raised a hand for silence, slipping forward to the place where he had seen movement from above.

Cadeyrn tilted the altar aside, and the sound grew louder. Beneath the stone lay a cave, long ago flooded by the advance of the sea. There, in a sea-cavern below the ruins, krait lay in hiding, unperturbed by the icy waters. But these were not warriors. This was a hatchery, filled with krait eggs and terrified young.

He raised his sword to continue the extermination—

“Cadeyrn!” Niamh said sharply.

Cadeyrn paused, looking up at the leader of his Cycle in confusion.

“Leave them.”

“But…they are krait.”

“They are children.”

“Children.” He frowned, for the word had little meaning. “You mean ‘they are small.’ They are small, but they are krait. They will grow up to be large krait, and then we will kill them. Why not kill them now, when it is easy and they are undefended? It seems the wisest course of action. Otherwise, we risk losing more sylvari lives when these return fully grown.”

“We must take that risk, to give them a chance to change their ways,” the firstborn said. “All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.” Soberly, she put away her sword and pushed the altar back. Beneath it, Cadeyrn could hear the snakes scrambling, splashing away into the ocean tide.

“Again the firstborn quote the Tablet when I ask for logic.” He growled beneath his breath. “I do not agree.”

The fourth tenet is not ‘Thous shalt not kill’.

All things have a right to grow. This includes those things threatened by other things. It also includes things that need to kill other things to gain sustenance. Killing for either of these reasons is acceptable, as some death allows other life to flourish. When presented with two options that both defy this rule, the best choice is simply the one that seems to present the best result in the long run. If you turn out wrong, then at least you tried to do right.

What the tenet actually opposes is restriction against growth (whether by killing or other means) for petty reasons. It’s as much an argument against suppressing free and open discourse for political reasons as plucking weeds from a flower garden when they don’t threaten the health of the flowers. It’s the reason the Dreamers haven’t marched on the Nightmare Court and totally wiped them out, even though they’ve got the numbers and power to do so.

It’s not a hard, unbreakable rule either. It’s a guide to how best to live, and like all the teachings it bends when it must. The Nightmare Court only think it’s a tyrannical code that mandates absolute behaviour.

I’m not really getting the Nightmare only convert people argument here. How they convert Sylvari to nightmare is horrific to say the least. Finding a group of prisoners with their tortured cellmate’s body still in their cage is pretty sickening. If you listen to a conversation between two NPCs in the grove near the Asura portal you’ll hear a woman talk about the damage the nightmares she’s having are doing. She’s losing her sense of identity and it’s the court to blame.

I doubt the Sylvari never tried to cure a coutier but when they’re threatening to slaughter a village, it’s hard to try to reason with them. Besides, having a darker edge to even good Sylvari is nice. It gives them some depth. They’re inexperienced, but they are still basically human like in nature.

Illushia.3721:

You can’t cure Nightmare corruption. You can’t. It’s been stated, flat out, in the lore.

You can’t. The end.

oh my. well as long as someone in charge said so that TOTALLY makes it an interesting and legitimate plot element, ey? ey? this thread is a criticism of the way the Guild Wars setting is being handled, babygirl. consider that “BUT THE SETTING SAYS SO” is not a legitimate response. I’m not saying the sylvari are wrong in-universe; I’m saying the universe is super dumb.

Yata.8932:

Edit: The nightmare corruption is not the flu. They say it is an illness metaphorically.

If it’s something that causes a fundamental change in a person, then yes, it is an “illness.” That doesn’t mean it’s a bacterium, but if it’s something that apparently for some fiat mystical reason can’t be reverted from, then YES, it is a DISEASE. If it writes absolute and permanent changes on your person, it’s a PATHOLOGY. It’s clearly not just some kind of political or religious statement, because apparently, for magicable reasons, you “can never come back.” It breaks you. Therefore: Illness. Feel free to google “basilisk hack” and get back to me.

Lutinz.6915:

]In general the Sylvari only kill foes that are hostile to others.

Like Caithe murdering prisoners who’ve surrendered, huh? Peaceful recruiters whom they tricked into wandering into the woods to have a civil conversation with them?

Lutinz.6915:

The Courtiers do kill Dreamers and anyone else on a regular basis.

Uh, you HAVE done the heart that is the first encounter you have with the Nightmare Court, right? The one where you wear a disguise and talk to Courtiers, and they say “You should never kill; if you kill someone, they can’t come to understand the Nightmare?”

Ba air.1372:

How they convert Sylvari to nightmare is horrific to say the least.

Only they totally do it through just talking to Dreamers, too, and expressing their tenets in a clear and direct way—a thing Dreamers NEVER attempt to do with Courtiers. We witness this multiple times. Considering what Dreamers do to Courtiers they “take prisoner” that is to say “murder after they’ve surrendered,” it’s pretty kitten strong to say that what Courtiers do to Dreamers they catch is terrible. I think if you gave me a choice between being murdered after I’d surrendered and having my perspective changed to a more emotional point that my decision would be clear.

The consensus in this thread seems to be “but arenanat has sad that court am evil bade also no killin babby!!” Not too impressed.

If I had a choice between death and becoming a torturing monster that would go on to murder and torment innocents… Uh… I might choose the former, at least I have some freedom in that option.

It’s not strong to say what the courtiers do is horrible. It IS horrible. Caithe might be vicious but I haven’t seen her torture someone to death and then stick the mangled body in the cage to further degrade the minds of the cellmates.

If the nightmare court were like the soundless, you’d have a point, but they aren’t. The Soundless have a similar mindset regarding breaking away from the tree. The big difference is that they’re not horrifically evil. The nightmare court as not as deep as you’re trying to make them out to be. To be honest the evil in this game is pretty shallow and the court is no exception. Those recruiters were peaceful right then but you can bet they were just as vicious as the rest.

Word of god(Anet) says they can’t be fixed. Word of god is right despite how much you want to speculate.

crawlkill.6174:

Illushia.3721:

You can’t cure Nightmare corruption. You can’t. It’s been stated, flat out, in the lore.

You can’t. The end.

oh my. well as long as someone in charge said so that TOTALLY makes it an interesting and legitimate plot element, ey? ey? this thread is a criticism of the way the Guild Wars setting is being handled, babygirl. consider that “BUT THE SETTING SAYS SO” is not a legitimate response. I’m not saying the sylvari are wrong in-universe; I’m saying the universe is super dumb.

Yata.8932:

Edit: The nightmare corruption is not the flu. They say it is an illness metaphorically.

If it’s something that causes a fundamental change in a person, then yes, it is an “illness.” That doesn’t mean it’s a bacterium, but if it’s something that apparently for some fiat mystical reason can’t be reverted from, then YES, it is a DISEASE. If it writes absolute and permanent changes on your person, it’s a PATHOLOGY. It’s clearly not just some kind of political or religious statement, because apparently, for magicable reasons, you “can never come back.” It breaks you. Therefore: Illness. Feel free to google “basilisk hack” and get back to me.

Lutinz.6915:

]In general the Sylvari only kill foes that are hostile to others.

Like Caithe murdering prisoners who’ve surrendered, huh? Peaceful recruiters whom they tricked into wandering into the woods to have a civil conversation with them?

Lutinz.6915:

The Courtiers do kill Dreamers and anyone else on a regular basis.

Uh, you HAVE done the heart that is the first encounter you have with the Nightmare Court, right? The one where you wear a disguise and talk to Courtiers, and they say “You should never kill; if you kill someone, they can’t come to understand the Nightmare?”

Ba air.1372:

How they convert Sylvari to nightmare is horrific to say the least.

Only they totally do it through just talking to Dreamers, too, and expressing their tenets in a clear and direct way—a thing Dreamers NEVER attempt to do with Courtiers. We witness this multiple times. Considering what Dreamers do to Courtiers they “take prisoner” that is to say “murder after they’ve surrendered,” it’s pretty kitten strong to say that what Courtiers do to Dreamers they catch is terrible. I think if you gave me a choice between being murdered after I’d surrendered and having my perspective changed to a more emotional point that my decision would be clear.

The consensus in this thread seems to be “but arenanat has sad that court am evil bade also no killin babby!!” Not too impressed.

Sure, talking, mental manipulation, torture, threats, psychological warfare and conditioning… totally harmless.

crawlkill.6174:

Like Caithe murdering prisoners who’ve surrendered, huh? Peaceful recruiters whom they tricked into wandering into the woods to have a civil conversation with them?

Caithe is pretty clearly not a devout follower of Ventari’s teachings.

crawlkill.6174:

Uh, you HAVE done the heart that is the first encounter you have with the Nightmare Court, right? The one where you wear a disguise and talk to Courtiers, and they say “You should never kill; if you kill someone, they can’t come to understand the Nightmare?”

If you’ve played the White Stag story, you’d know that there are …differences in philosophy between individuals in the Court. Some see themselves as noble heroes trying to liberate the Pale Tree and Sylvari society, others are remorseless monsters who will always prefer the more destructive option. The ‘heroic’ ones are actually worse in this case, because their path could work as they strive for the end goal above their own concerns. The destructive ones are also self-destructive and only succeed in the short term.

crawlkill.6174:

Only they totally do it through just talking to Dreamers, too, and expressing their tenets in a clear and direct way—a thing Dreamers NEVER attempt to do with Courtiers. We witness this multiple times. Considering what Dreamers do to Courtiers they “take prisoner” that is to say “murder after they’ve surrendered,” it’s pretty kitten strong to say that what Courtiers do to Dreamers they catch is terrible. I think if you gave me a choice between being murdered after I’d surrendered and having my perspective changed to a more emotional point that my decision would be clear.

That’s not how it works. I mean, sure, some Courtiers will try that to see who they can convert gently, but once that’s failed, they kidnap the remainder and use much more forceful and vile methods to manipulate their emotions until they give in to Nightmare.

And it’s not a more emotional viewpoint. The Dreamers are capable of all the emotions the Nightmare Court cultivate, but they try their best not to let their anger, pride, fear and so on control them. The Nightmare Court, however, says, ‘Do what those emotions tell you to do, unless it goes against Faolain’s wishes.’ They’ve just traded one decent code that isn’t enforced for a very broken one that is and called it freedom.

crawlkill.6174:

The consensus in this thread seems to be “but arenanat has sad that court am evil bade also no killin babby!!” Not too impressed.

I say it seems that you just weren’t paying close attention ingame.

In Brisban Wildlands, there’s a few Hearts and events that tell a story about an alliance between Krytan bandits, Inquest and the Nightmare Court. The bandits trade captives to the Inquest, and the Courtiers facilitate the process. What do they actually gain from it? Nothing but an increased suffering in the area feeding the Nightmare. They commit evil for the sake of there being more evil. Does that make it clear?

So happy i chose to be a Norn xD but even norn’s endup slaying wolfs, bears and snow leopards. I’ve yet too kill a raven i think which would be terribly saddening if they’d force me

So ye the ethics in this game are not in line always with what you chose as your “personal story”. But i gues the games violence is better represented by a Norn then a silvary indeed. :P

… Too bad this thread didn’t exist circa 1200, eh? Lives could have been saved. Ferreal.

The Sylvari are -taught- Ventari’s -teachings-; I don’t believe anything in their lore states they were programmed to follow those teachings to the tee like golems. They are not the droids you’re looking for.

Caithe had her love turn into a vicious, tortuous Duchess. Please excuse her brutality.

Nightmare “cannot be cured” by anything the Sylvari (er, or otherwise I’m guessing) know. If you want to join the pacifist club, please state your IC name below and we’ll get into non-contact with you.

Just look at them like green, leafy humans. Sure, their single mother taught them all these nice things but there’s always that one big brother that just can’t stay off the streets, yeah know? And that’s in a normal-sized family. How many Sylvari brothers and sisters are there again?

RaZaC.1963:

So happy i chose to be a Norn xD but even norn’s endup slaying wolfs, bears and snow leopards. I’ve yet too kill a raven i think which would be terribly saddening if they’d force me

So ye the ethics in this game are not in line always with what you chose as your “personal story”. But i gues the games violence is better represented by a Norn then a silvary indeed. :P

The spirits don’t care when a few of the animals they represent get killed. That’s just the way of nature and life. The important thing is that norn are respectful in their hunts. Which they are.

Crawlkill, are you seriously trying to portray the Nightmare Court as misunderstood victims here? The Nightmare Court has basicly declared war on the Dreamers. What exactly would you have the Sylvari do? They clearly dont have the numbers to wipe out the Nightmare Court so they certainly dont have the numbers to capture and hold them all against their will. We have also seen attempts by people to talk round members of the Nightmare Court and it has never ended well.

Again, what would you have them do?

Have them troll.

Trolls never come around to your way of thinking.

Lutinz.6915:

They clearly dont have the numbers to wipe out the Nightmare Court so they certainly dont have the numbers to capture and hold them all against their will.

Actually, I am pretty sure that the Dreamers greatly outnumber the Nightmare Court. The problem is that forcing anything on Courtiers who aren’t actively causing harm goes against Ventari’s teachings. And Sylvari culture entirely rejecting the tablet so that they can put together the force needed to kill or capture the entire Nightmare Court would actually be a victory for the Court.

@nonsensicles

meanwhile, the Nightmare Court uses rational persuasion (and, admittedly, dumbkitten torture! why? because the people who wrote this game are idiots!) to convert disciples.

ugh ugh ugh

an antagonist you can’t sympathize with is a failed antagonist. why do you think you know the name Loghain? why do you think anyone ever read Song of Ice and Fire?

Caithe, just Caithe, is zealously (I wouldn’t quite say insanely) murderous when it comes to the Nightmare Court. As far as I’ve seen, other Dreamers would prefer the Nightmare Court just stopped bothering them. Hearts and Events in Caledon Forest that have you killing Courtiers all feature defending against Court attacks or rescuing captives. I mean, sure, the related NPCs may have some angry, vengeful dialogue related to the task at hand, but that’s because they’re emotional beings. That doesn’t mean they’re acting without good reason or going berserk.

And even if that was the case, the Court is provably evil. I’ve already shown a great example how. Some of them being insidious in how they perpetrate their evil doesn’t mean they’re not. There are plenty of non-violent ways to cause terrible suffering. Look at white-collar crime, malpractice and emotional abuse.

The Pale Tree herself doesn’t want the Nightmare Court exterminated. She’s certain there’s no way to redeem them, but would rather they be left alone so long as they leave others alone.

You’re very reactionary, aren’t you? You’re seeing one thing and assuming everything supports that being the status quo when it doesn’t. And ignoring anything that blatantly goes against that notion.

SillyBlackFox.4872:

Have them troll.

Trolls never come around to your way of thinking.

Much like the nightmare court…

Defending oneself is not murder. No really it’s not. Most of the missions I’ve done that have involved actively going after the court was to save prisoners they were planning on torturing. The fact that you keep overlooking the horrific things they are doing to innocent people is frankly baffling. You can say it’s because Anet wrote them badly but they still wrote them and their word is law in this universe.

The Nightmare Court goal is to either convert or destroy every Dreamer. They do not relent. The Dreamers either fight or allow their entire way of life to be destroyed. Again, the Court started this conflict.

Cry all you want about the Dreamers killing to defend themselves or ONE Sylvari, Caithe, killing a surrendered courtier, but the Court will always trump that. Hell, in the very flipping start of the Sylvari area you see Nightmare Hounds in the dream. Those hounds, a big element of the Court, were more than happy to kill dreaming saplings. Your character is fine because of the hero setup but the sapling that dreams of being a really good baker is going to get ripped to shreds. That’s not peaceful recruiting, that’s murdering defenseless innocents.

If you follow the green knight line you’ll hear Caithe explain that many Sylvari convert after being tortured because their agony poisons the dream. They convert to lesson the blow to the Mother Tree. They aren’t being reasonably persuaded here, they want to save further saplings from having to deal with their pain.

The Court are shallow but they are not completely unsympathizable. There is a certain amount of logic behind what they think but at the same time, their actions do not support it. What the Court invokes is pity and sadness if you think of those that converted to spare the dream more pain. Now they’re stuck being monsters to the ones they wanted to protect. That’s pretty gutting right there.

The Nightmare Court is the same as the Inquest. They believe the ends justify the means. The end they believe in is the rejection of the tablets by the Pale Tree and believe that if they increase the nightmare content in the dream, the Pale Tree will be corrupted and abandon the tablet. There is no proof that this is will actually happen – i.e. Pale Tree will ever abandon Ventari’s tablet even if the entire dream is just one big nightmare. From what I have seen of the Pale Tree, I am thinking more likely she would destroy herself if the nightmare overwhelmed the dream.

However, the Nightmare court truly believes they are doing the right thing. That’s why they attract the honourable as well as the brutish sadists. But that’s what makes the Nightmare court, even the Inquest, realistic. Only a few people in the world go out there and join Evil Inc. More likely, they join organisation whose philosophy they believe in because the philosophy seems “right” and in order to achieve said philosophy, they end-up doing evil things.

Now what is an “evil deed” anyway? If you exclude religion, laws and even philosophies (Ventari Tablets) and anything else that defines “evil deed” for you, at its most fundamental an “evil deed” is to wilfully bring suffering and harm on another. The Nightmare Court goes out of their way to kidnap and torture Sylvari. They use honey to recruit impressionable idiots and then once they get brought back to the base, do sadistics things to them, all short of death, to break them. The sadists and the brutish among the Nightmare Court do not need a reason other then “it’s fun” to do these things. However, others rationalise their evil deeds with empty reasons like “this is all for the greater good! This will free the Sylvari.”

At the end of the day, you are what you do. Not what you say and certainly not what you believe. It doesn’t matter what the Nightmare Courtiers say or how they justify their heinous acts, they do terrible, terrible things and that’s what makes them evil.

Nonsensicles.5486:

The fourth tenet is not ‘Thous shalt not kill’.

All things have a right to grow. This includes those things threatened by other things. It also includes things that need to kill other things to gain sustenance. Killing for either of these reasons is acceptable, as some death allows other life to flourish. When presented with two options that both defy this rule, the best choice is simply the one that seems to present the best result in the long run. If you turn out wrong, then at least you tried to do right.

This is a very good point. It depends on how you read the statement.
Look at the declaration of independence. its a statement of equality, and rights. It is not a commandment to not kill.
It can be read as a statement to actively to fight oppression, or anything that would impede freedom and “growth”.
It doesn’t even say all things have the right to life. it says all things have the right to grow.

The Nightmare is stagnant. Dragons stop growth. The tree does allow her children to grow and leave her if they wish. The nightmare court are NOT the only ones that have rejected the tablet.

As for Caithe, Caithe is implied to be falling to the Nightmare. She hates them, so probably won’t join. But her beliefs line up with theirs pretty closely.

This makes me think of the DE in Caledon Forest where you ‘harvest’ fireflies to make streetlights; and then have to kill a bunch of mosquitoes that are attracted to the lights.

Besides crawlkill nearly having an aneurism while chastising the imperfection of a fantasy universe he paid to be a part of, this thread is interesting. The fact is, Ventari’s Tablet is open to interpretation (because when, exactly, is something done growing? Physically, it’s pretty easy to judge, in most cases. But mentally, it’s always growing, always learning and always experiencing new things). The sylvari emerge into a world threatened by evil, and the attempt at moral goodness put forth by the centaur sage is simply not enough to combat the malevolence this young race is facing. Can you really blame them? Be glad that while the sylvari have some hive-mind aspects, they are diverse enough (partly because of which Cycle they emerge in, partly because of individual development) to avoid appearing like mind-linked robots.

Corax.7381:

Besides crawlkill nearly having an aneurism while chastising the imperfection of a fantasy universe he paid to be a part of, this thread is interesting. The fact is, Ventari’s Tablet is open to interpretation (because when, exactly, is something done growing? Physically, it’s pretty easy to judge, in most cases. But mentally, it’s always growing, always learning and always experiencing new things). The sylvari emerge into a world threatened by evil, and the attempt at moral goodness put forth by the centaur sage is simply not enough to combat the malevolence this young race is facing. Can you really blame them? Be glad that while the sylvari have some hive-mind aspects, they are diverse enough (partly because of which Cycle they emerge in, partly because of individual development) to avoid appearing like mind-linked robots.

I would just like to point out that they are by no means hive minded. Take for example two sylvari who just emerged from the dream, neither of them have the experience of eating roast moa. Sylvari A eats roast moa for the first time, this does not mean sylvari B now knows what roast moa tastes like. The like they share outside of the dream is faint empathy at best. Very few may look back into the dream. Not a hive mind.

Sorry off topic over.

Corax.7381:

Besides crawlkill nearly having an aneurism while chastising the imperfection of a fantasy universe he paid to be a part of

yeah, my mistake, huh? I’d been playing TSW and had forgotten how normal MMO writing works. good to’ve been reminded what the fanbase is like.

Coming to the forums with a hostile attitude about something you’ve very clearly misunderstood doesn’t exactly paint you in a positive light yourself.

You’ve taken nearly every point and skewed it to such an extreme that arguing with you over it is pointless. You clearly have no interest in actually understanding.

You just want to stir crap.

so not. so not. every response with any content so far has been “but ArenaNet said it was supposed to be this way.” that’s an explanation, not an excuse.

crawlkill.6174:

so not. so not. every response with any content so far has been “but ArenaNet said it was supposed to be this way.” that’s an explanation, not an excuse.

OK. why can’t an elementalist raise the dead? why are asura 3-4 feet tall? areanet is the ultimate arbiter of lore in THEIR game.

About the nightmare court being incurable: It doesn’t have to meen that they is absolutly no way for a nightmare court sylvari to be “cured”. It could just mean that they can;‘t be cured out of present knowledge/resources. We have about a century of studying the human psyche. we still don’t know how to “cure” psychopaths and sociopaths (which is what nightmare court would attract) we just lock them away. sylvari have been around for 25 years. they can’t have the knowledge to even attempt to “cure” a nightmare court. and they don’t have the resources to just “lock up” nightmare court. (especially given how well-trained soldiers they are) Killing them is the only option.

so not. so not. every response with any content so far has been “but ArenaNet said it was supposed to be this way.” that’s an explanation, not an excuse.

ANet said it was supposed to be this way.

Their game, their rules.

Anet establishing that the Nightmare Court being incurable is no different than any book or game writer dictating the rules of their universe. Their lore is an explanation and there’s nothing to excuse here. You can hardly make a go at their writing when you barely seem to pay attention to it. That one scene from the white stag line seems to be your only knowledge of the interactions between the Court and the Dreamers.

On the note of the tablet, I do get the impression that it is more of a starting point for the Sylvari and none of them are compelled in a hive mind sense to follow it. Like I said earlier, they are basically humanlike in nature. Bending of the rules is gonna happen.

I think that the Sylvari are probably the best example of concepts of good and evil being blurred or even changed into something else. This goes beyond Guildwars into any MMO really (and real life). Every MMO without fail has you, the “hero”, murdering countless “innocents” – usually with some reason (too many bears eating all the deer, people going hungry) or some such. There are no true examples of playing a completely pacificist character and actually advancing in the game (beyond roleplaying and not questing or killing anything).

It might be interesting to see if there are enough “pacificist” events in GW2 that a person could level to 80 without killing a single thing. I’m guessing it’s possible. There are events with no killing, and gathering gives you experience as does crafting. That in itself is pretty revolutionary for an MMO.

But all that said, to understand Sylvari you have to go to the root of their beginnings. Ventari was as close to a pacificist as one might get. To our knowledge he never participated in any violent acts against any races, and sought only to remain neutral. Ronan was a Shining Blade who originally found a “guarded cavern filled with mysterious seeds” and took one with him to show his daughter. Upon finding his family murdered by mursaat/white mantle, he vowed never to fight again and planted the seed he had found on their graves. Later Ventari joined him at the sight, and helped him tend the growing tree. Ronan died first, and Ventari died just 23 years before the first sylvari emerged from the Pale Tree. Whether Ventari ever spoke with the Pale Tree and knew it was sentient is not known. He left behind his tablet, which had the following:

:I. Live life well, and fully, and waste nothing.
II. Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes strong roots.
III. The only lasting peace is the peace within your own soul.
IV. All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
V. Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow.
VI. Act with wisdom, but act.
VII. From the smallest blade of grass to the largest mountain, where life goes- so too, should you.

To me this sounds as though Ventari did think the Pale Tree was sentient and could read and understand his words, as they seem to be directed at something plant-like.

So by the fifth tenant, Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow, the Sylvari would be bound to destroy the Nightmare Court, as the members are “wrong”. They might have a right to grow, but they cannot be allowed to spread. Obviously, as they kidnap and convert “normal” Sylvari.. they are trying to spread.

And because they have a natural sort of outlook on life, they are not true pacificists. They realize that because all things have a right to grow, all things must struggle against each other to grow. Plants continually strangle and/or block the light from each other. And so Sylvari are not against killing deer and/or animals and other humanoids that threaten them, or for their own survival.

You can get from 1 to 80 by maxing every single crafting profession, so technically you can be a total pacifist until max. Of course, personal story line would be impossible, unless you brought a violent friend along.

I haven’t read through the whole thread, but “all things have a right to grow” is not the same as “you shouldn’t kill”

“right to grow” can mean both “let live” or “given a chance” – basically, it’s saying one of a few things:

Everything has a right to live, but they can revoke their own right by being harmful to others, so that others can live.

Everything has a right to grow up, make their own choices, but not all choices are correct.

Among many other interpretations. However, my opinion on how to interpret it is thus:

Just because you’re different from another (blossom and weed), does not mean you should oppose each other (right to grow) and you may find more similarities than at first apparent (brother to).

Serval.6458:

This makes me think of the DE in Caledon Forest where you ‘harvest’ fireflies to make streetlights; and then have to kill a bunch of mosquitoes that are attracted to the lights.

You, whomever you may be, are on the correct path.

Yata.8932:

Much like the nightmare court…

“wat, trolling iz the cure to trolling?” You might be onto something. Maybe if Caithe tries capturing her lost love in a straight jacket and locking her in a fluffy room full of Quaggan and mini’s… this might work. It just might.

crawlkill.6174:

so not. so not. every response with any content so far has been “but ArenaNet said it was supposed to be this way.” that’s an explanation, not an excuse.

crawkill, I still believe you’re looking at things the wrong way. At the risk of repeating myself I have to ask— where did you come to understand that Sylvari must to follow Ventari’s teachings?

To the thread:

Thank you for the line about “centaur Moses”. I’ve got a picture of Charleton Heston’s role as Moses, except with a horse body on the lower half, stuck in my head now. It’s both funny and annoying at the same time.