Guild Wars 2

I was playing my Norn recently and noticed this image in my personal story (Attached: a female norn looking like a SoS with her arm on an icebrood although it is cropped) of a female Sons of Svanir. I have seen the original image by the artist as well, and it is titled aptly as such (if I can find the source of their art, I’ll haul it up, but I’m at a loss currently).
However, in the norn starting zone, there is a skill challenge vs a SoS along the midsection at the right side, and when prompted, my Norn asked him why they had no women in their ranks. He replies they are too soft/weak.

So I’m wondering, if there are no women amongst the SoS, why is this image in the game? I don’t know if this was overlooked, or if there are female SoS somewhere and we might hear of them later but even according to the wiki:

This all-male cult of norn have rejected their race’s reverence for the Spirits of the Wild. Instead, they’re obsessed with emulating what they see as the greatest predator in Tyria: the Elder Dragon Jormag, who drove the norn from the northern Shiverpeaks over a century ago.
— Codex Of Svanir

&

Women are not allowed to join the cult because of Jora’s "crimes" against Dragon.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sons_of_Svanir

So what’s going on here? Thoughts? Was this just overlooked by someone who was putting together the UI for the personal story?

Edit: I just noticed this picture is also on the wiki page =A= LOL why!

Truthfully they are very anti-women. In fact I was talking to the ones inside Hoelbrak with my female charr, and they told her to leave now or die (in some not quite so nice words). All I can say is, more than likely the concept art was made before the Sons of Svanir were completely fleshed out, but ArenaNet seems to hate the idea of leaving their concept art out of the game just because it is not necessarily accurate. I mean the loading screen for fighting Zhaitan shows him being probably 20x larger than he is in the game, and there are still concept art pieces of the sylvari bringing druid-like plant creations to life (from the days when characters would have companions to join them.

That’s probably old concept art from before the Sons of Svanir were fully fleshed out. The reason why no women are allowed is because Jora (a girl) killed Svanir himself. Makes me wonder what they would’ve done if a man had killed Svanir: then they would have to be the Sons of Svanir, No Men Allowed.

That’s old concept art from a concept artist who has done quite a few of the armor designs – especially dungeon armors, including heavy CoF armor, T3 human (dubbed “Crescent Moon” armor), and Whispers heavy.

Artist’s wiki category: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Hyojin_Ahn
Original concept art: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Norn_svanir_female_concept_art.jpg

Instead of being proto Sons of Svanir, I’d say that was one of the armor designs for Honor of the Waves.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s old concept art from a concept artist who has done quite a few of the armor designs – especially dungeon armors, including heavy CoF armor, T3 human (dubbed “Crescent Moon” armor), and Whispers heavy.

Artist’s wiki category: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Hyojin_Ahn
Original concept art: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Norn_svanir_female_concept_art.jpg

Instead of being proto Sons of Svanir, I’d say that was one of the armor designs for Honor of the Waves.

It says Svanir on that picture, so I’m guessing it was some kind of concept of a female Dragon Shaman or something like that.

Oglaf.1074:

That’s probably old concept art from before the Sons of Svanir were fully fleshed out. The reason why no women are allowed is because Jora (a girl) killed Svanir himself. Makes me wonder what they would’ve done if a man had killed Svanir: then they would have to be the Sons of Svanir, No Men Allowed.

It’s not only that Jora killed Svanir, though that is a big part of it. But Jora also refused to take on Jormag’s blessing and for some reason that we do not know of, Jormag does not turn females into icebrood at all after this incident. This leads me to believe that females are somehow immune to his power of corruption much like Sylvari are. Because we do see Jormag attempt to corrupt at least one woman, but none have so far been corrupted successfully.

Narcemus.1348:

Oglaf.1074:

That’s probably old concept art from before the Sons of Svanir were fully fleshed out. The reason why no women are allowed is because Jora (a girl) killed Svanir himself. Makes me wonder what they would’ve done if a man had killed Svanir: then they would have to be the Sons of Svanir, No Men Allowed.

It’s not only that Jora killed Svanir, though that is a big part of it. But Jora also refused to take on Jormag’s blessing and for some reason that we do not know of, Jormag does not turn females into icebrood at all after this incident. This leads me to believe that females are somehow immune to his power of corruption much like Sylvari are. Because we do see Jormag attempt to corrupt at least one woman, but none have so far been corrupted successfully.

I’ve always kind of wondered about this, because I can’t imagine a dragon caring about the sex of a minion, as long as it is a minion. But in the “Edge of Destiny” book at one point, Eir proclaims to the norn something like “What does the icebrood do to the norn who go to fight them?”

And a norn woman replies, “The norn men come back as Icebrood. The norn women come back… not at all.” Which leads me to think they are just killed. It’s all interesting speculation though.

Key word.. SON of Savanir.

Narcemus.1348:

Jormag does not turn females into icebrood at all after this incident.

Not entirely true.

We just don’t know what happens to females. He might kill them, or he might turn them into icebrood and send them north (rather than south like all the males).

The thing about Jora being able to resist Jormag’s corruption is that one must willingly accept his corruption. He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things. He only corrupts willing people. Though the Sons of Svanir are another story.

And we know that females can be turned to icebrood – Honor of the Waves story mode features a female Kodan Voice being turned into an icebrood. Though female norn lies in question.

Seeing how Jormag is actively conscious about his underlings, and that would include the Sons of Svanir’s actions, then its likely that he keeps female norn icebrood away from his Sons of Svanir followers to not reduce morale.

Narcemus.1348:

Oglaf.1074:

That’s probably old concept art from before the Sons of Svanir were fully fleshed out. The reason why no women are allowed is because Jora (a girl) killed Svanir himself. Makes me wonder what they would’ve done if a man had killed Svanir: then they would have to be the Sons of Svanir, No Men Allowed.

It’s not only that Jora killed Svanir, though that is a big part of it. But Jora also refused to take on Jormag’s blessing and for some reason that we do not know of, Jormag does not turn females into icebrood at all after this incident. This leads me to believe that females are somehow immune to his power of corruption much like Sylvari are. Because we do see Jormag attempt to corrupt at least one woman, but none have so far been corrupted successfully.

Women are not immune to corruption as the Sylvari are. There are multiple times when a Norn female is killed and becomes a Risen. It happens so frequently I think Anet has a vendetta against them. Also Elder Dragons are supposed to be very poweful. How powerful would an Elder Dragon if a mere gender could stop it’s corruption?

While we’re on the topic of corrupted women, any theories on why Almorra Soulkeeper survived the Branding when the rest of her warband were not so fortunate?

Killul.9685:

Women are not immune to corruption as the Sylvari are. There are multiple times when a Norn female is killed and becomes a Risen. It happens so frequently I think Anet has a vendetta against them. Also Elder Dragons are supposed to be very poweful. How powerful would an Elder Dragon if a mere gender could stop it’s corruption?

He meant immune just to Jormag as sylvari are to all Elder Dragons. Something I, obviously by my previous post, disagree with.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

While we’re on the topic of corrupted women, any theories on why Almorra Soulkeeper survived the Branding when the rest of her warband were not so fortunate?

In an interview after GoA, Jeff (or was it Ree?) stated that she was on the edge of it – during the second Gamescom trailer, as well as the Welcome to the Vigil cinematic, you see the Dragonbrand forming in front of a charr (Almorra), but not behind. The Birthplace of the Vigil skill challenge also is at the edge of the Dragonbrand.

My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).

What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.

My Impression is, that the woman on the art is not necessary a Svanir. Come on. It can be a player character or some other Corrupted person. Don’t dig too deep into that.

You can always /shrug and assume she’s transgender like I would. Not a big deal.

Lindelle.3718:

And a norn woman replies, “The norn men come back as Icebrood. The norn women come back… not at all.” Which leads me to think they are just killed. It’s all interesting speculation though.

My inclination is to assume they’re being made into something worse, like the Darkspawn Brood Mothers in Dragon Age. If that’s the case, and they’re being used to breed lesser icebrood in large numbers, they may be kept isolated for strategic reasons. That would be a little dark for GW2 though, which tends to tack away from using sex for shock value.

[quote=1074800;Konig Des Todes.2086:]

draxynnic.3719:

My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).

What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.

What is with you and Thalador, constantly mistaking my use of the word “doesn’t” to mean the same as “can’t”

Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Jormag doesn’t forcefully corrupt – this doesn’t mean he can’t.

Doesn’t != can’t

And as shown in Honor of the Waves story, there are indeed icebrood that are unwillingly corrupted – this is also shown in the NE corner of Frostgorge Sound. Whether this is Jormag’s preference for Kodan (since they’re the only ones shown to be forcefully corrupted) or the act of Sons of Svanir (whom are the cause behind the HotW story corruption) is left debatable.

@Narcemus: Errored post?

It’s all speculation up to this matter.
The whole “females immune to Jormag corruption” sounds rather odd. Also Icebrood in fact aren’t Sons of Svanir. Sons of Svanir are followers of the Dragon as they see it as a spirit of the wild, while Icebrood are corrupted entities, as we see they can be Norn, Koda, Quaggan, Largo and so on. So the rules consequence of Jora’s actions against the cult of Svanir do not apply to Icebrood.

I think they are either killed or… for some reason, Jormag likes to have women around so he keeps them in the Northern Shiverpeaks. In that case, he either is a “ladies-dragon” (lol) or females have another use / turn into a more powerful kind of Icebrood so that they can be used as elite guards.

Hermes.7014:

It’s all speculation up to this matter.
The whole “females immune to Jormag corruption” sounds rather odd. Also Icebrood in fact aren’t Sons of Svanir. Sons of Svanir are followers of the Dragon as they see it as a spirit of the wild, while Icebrood are corrupted entities, as we see they can be Norn, Koda, Quaggan, Largo and so on. So the rules consequence of Jora’s actions against the cult of Svanir do not apply to Icebrood.

I think they are either killed or… for some reason, Jormag likes to have women around so he keeps them in the Northern Shiverpeaks. In that case, he either is a “ladies-dragon” (lol) or females have another use / turn into a more powerful kind of Icebrood so that they can be used as elite guards.

In the Destiny’s Edge novel the Dragonspawn tells Eir that he will take her over. This suggests that he sends the corrupted females away instead of killing them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).

What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.

What is with you and Thalador, constantly mistaking my use of the word “doesn’t” to mean the same as “can’t”

Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Jormag doesn’t forcefully corrupt – this doesn’t mean he can’t.

Doesn’t != can’t

And as shown in Honor of the Waves story, there are indeed icebrood that are unwillingly corrupted – this is also shown in the NE corner of Frostgorge Sound. Whether this is Jormag’s preference for Kodan (since they’re the only ones shown to be forcefully corrupted) or the act of Sons of Svanir (whom are the cause behind the HotW story corruption) is left debatable.

@Narcemus: Errored post?

Ummm… I wasn’t confusing “doesn’t” with “can’t”. In fact, the post I was responding to comes across pretty firmly in the “can’t” category:

Konig Des Todes

The thing about Jora being able to resist Jormag’s corruption is that one must willingly accept his corruption. He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things. He only corrupts willing people.

Emphasis mine. The first emphasised section at least strongly implies that one can only be corrupted by Jormag if one accepts the corruption willingly – which has been proven false in a number of events. The second emphasised section reinforces this interpretation by saying that he universally corrupts the willing.

Now, what you wrote does allow for the possibility that Jormag is capable of forcing corruption but chooses not to exercise that capability – however, as stated above we know that Jormag not only can but does exercise that capability. It’s just that if someone comes to him willingly, he’s not going to pass up the easy convert.

My interpretation of the second post quoted above may not be what you intended to say, but the fault of the miscommunication here is not in how I interpreted what you wrote, but in how you wrote it. What you wrote says, twice, with little if any room for alternate interpretation, that Jormag never corrupts anyone who doesn’t choose to be corrupted.

Hermes.7014:

Also Icebrood in fact aren’t Sons of Svanir. Sons of Svanir are followers of the Dragon as they see it as a spirit of the wild, while Icebrood are corrupted entities, as we see they can be Norn, Koda, Quaggan, Largo and so on. So the rules consequence of Jora’s actions against the cult of Svanir do not apply to Icebrood.

Well, firstly, there’s no icebrood largos.

Secondly, Sons of Svanir do eventually become icebrood (and there are sentient icebrood that lead the Sons of Svanir – most Svanir shamans are, in fact, using icebrood models).

The consequences of Jora’s actions might hold a side-effect on who becomes icebrood, since as I’ve said the Sons of Svanir do in fact channel Jormag’s power to create new icebrood (these being the “shamans” – which, again, many appear as icebrood but are very much sentient and, more importantly, with the mentality of Sons of Svanir).

draxynnic.3719:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

My impression is that Jormag can corrupt someone without their consent – in fact, there are events where Svanir shamans forcefully corrupt someone against their will (and, if they succeed, you have to put down the corrupted result).

What actually seems to distinguish Jormag is that it at least tries to recruit willing servitors rather than taking every minion by force. I suspect, now that we know dragons are capable of showing strategy, that this may be the dragon adapting to circumstance – when Jormag realised that there were norn out there that were looking to serve it willingly, that was too good an opportunity to pass up.

What is with you and Thalador, constantly mistaking my use of the word “doesn’t” to mean the same as “can’t”

Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – this doesn’t mean he can’t.
Jormag doesn’t forcefully corrupt – this doesn’t mean he can’t.

Doesn’t != can’t

And as shown in Honor of the Waves story, there are indeed icebrood that are unwillingly corrupted – this is also shown in the NE corner of Frostgorge Sound. Whether this is Jormag’s preference for Kodan (since they’re the only ones shown to be forcefully corrupted) or the act of Sons of Svanir (whom are the cause behind the HotW story corruption) is left debatable.

@Narcemus: Errored post?

Ummm… I wasn’t confusing “doesn’t” with “can’t”. In fact, the post I was responding to comes across pretty firmly in the “can’t” category:

Konig Des Todes

The thing about Jora being able to resist Jormag’s corruption is that one must willingly accept his corruption. He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things. He only corrupts willing people.

Emphasis mine. The first emphasised section at least strongly implies that one can only be corrupted by Jormag if one accepts the corruption willingly – which has been proven false in a number of events. The second emphasised section reinforces this interpretation by saying that he universally corrupts the willing.

Now, what you wrote does allow for the possibility that Jormag is capable of forcing corruption but chooses not to exercise that capability – however, as stated above we know that Jormag not only can but does exercise that capability. It’s just that if someone comes to him willingly, he’s not going to pass up the easy convert.

My interpretation of the second post quoted above may not be what you intended to say, but the fault of the miscommunication here is not in how I interpreted what you wrote, but in how you wrote it. What you wrote says, twice, with little if any room for alternate interpretation, that Jormag never corrupts anyone who doesn’t choose to be corrupted.

You should read the line between the two you bolded of my post:

He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things.

It’s what he does, not what he’s forced into doing because he can’t do other things. He only corrupts willing beings because that’s his choice, not because he can only corrupt willing beings.

And I’d like to note that no event shows that Jormag himself corrupts unwilling individuals. As I said in my previous post: _ Though the Sons of Svanir are another story._ Allow me to elaborate: The Sons of Svanir themselves corrupt unwilling (or in the case I’m sure you’re thinking about – the event in northern Dredgehaunt Cliffs with the “potential mate” male norn – hesitant) individuals, but Jormag and the non-SoS-mentality icebrood never do. And this unique act is noted by Order of Whisper agents in Frostgorge Sound.

If there’s a fault, it’s more in that you didn’t seem to take into consideration what laid between the sentences you emphasized in meaning, and that I didn’t elabroate on the mention of Sons of Svanir being an exception.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Hermes.7014:

Also Icebrood in fact aren’t Sons of Svanir. Sons of Svanir are followers of the Dragon as they see it as a spirit of the wild, while Icebrood are corrupted entities, as we see they can be Norn, Koda, Quaggan, Largo and so on. So the rules consequence of Jora’s actions against the cult of Svanir do not apply to Icebrood.

Well, firstly, there’s no icebrood largos.

Secondly, Sons of Svanir do eventually become icebrood (and there are sentient icebrood that lead the Sons of Svanir – most Svanir shamans are, in fact, using icebrood models).

The consequences of Jora’s actions might hold a side-effect on who becomes icebrood, since as I’ve said the Sons of Svanir do in fact channel Jormag’s power to create new icebrood (these being the “shamans” – which, again, many appear as icebrood but are very much sentient and, more importantly, with the mentality of Sons of Svanir.

I saw a concept art of a Risen Largo once so that got me into a bit of confusion about them. So far there are no corrupted Largo.

However, I believe Sons of Svanir are Norn only if I remember well. There are still Koda and Quaggan that make an exception so, after all, corruption doesn’t apply just to SoS alone. Jormag may corrupt female Norns independantly from Sons of Svanir.
I guess we will see more on this matter when the Shiverpeaks storyline will be released.

Yeah, I don’t understand at all what happened with my post Konig. Pretty much I had written about you being a bit wrong in Jormag’s corruption not being forced on individuals by using the Honor of the Waves storyline as an example. I can see that you and others have already gone over this by now though. So back to figuring out how the forums “simplified” my post, lol.

Personally, I think it is pretty simple: Jormag learned something when his champion tried to corrupt Jora and Svanir that made him decide not to bother with corrupting women. Perhaps something as simple as the male psyche being easier to mislead with promises of power.

Hermes.7014:

I saw a concept art of a Risen Largo once so that got me into a bit of confusion about them. So far there are no corrupted Largo.

That model seems to have been scrapped as a largos, and is now used (slightly modified with the wings I believe) as the Dwayna High Priestess model (and the Statue of Dwayna at the temple model).

Hermes.7014:

However, I believe Sons of Svanir are Norn only if I remember well. There are still Koda and Quaggan that make an exception so, after all, corruption doesn’t apply just to SoS alone. Jormag may corrupt female Norns independantly from Sons of Svanir.

I never said only Sons of Svanir turn to icebrood.

No one has.

What has been said is that Sons of Svanir – who are indeed norn – eventually become corrupted, and their leaders use icebrood models.

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, I don’t understand at all what happened with my post Konig. Pretty much I had written about you being a bit wrong in Jormag’s corruption not being forced on individuals by using the Honor of the Waves storyline as an example. I can see that you and others have already gone over this by now though. So back to figuring out how the forums “simplified” my post, lol.

You know what’s truly ironic? I mentioned that very HotW storyline in the very post you were going to refute.

@Oglaf: That’s a pretty huge oversimplification to make, even for an Elder Dragon.

Well, we are but ants to them. Of course we have to oversimplify their motives.

You know, I see that comparison a lot – but only from players.

Are we truly “but ants to them”? I don’t think so. We are their food source, their army source, their foot soldiers. They corrupt and learn from us, learn our culture and that we could be a threat (even before we struck down Zhaitan he knew that these so called ants could be threats. We, as humans, would never think ants as any of these. (note: by “us” and “we” I mean the races of Tyria)

They are above the races, but I cannot see them viewing us as mere ants. They are a resource at worst, and wild animals needing to be tamed and domesticated (like how we treat cows or horses) at best.

And given the mentality we’ve seen of them – that they view certain individuals better than others, that Zhaitan gives leadership roles to former leaders (turning royalty into the Eyes of Zhaitan, turning a former ship captain into the leader for his naval forces (Morgus Lethe), having princes, admirals, and viziers being his assault force leaders, etc.), I cannot see that they overgeneralize or view the races as mere “ants.”

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

While we’re on the topic of corrupted women, any theories on why Almorra Soulkeeper survived the Branding when the rest of her warband were not so fortunate?

My belief is that she just happened to be just outside of Kralky’s shadow so as he passed over her and her warband she never turned… but i haven’t read the book in awhile…

I re-read the passage that describes Almorra’s tale about the Branding (Ghosts of Ascalon, p. 98-99) and cross referenced it with the location of the SP “Birthplace of the Vigil” and it seems that specific location is firmly within the Dragonbrand, not near the edge. She was within a foot of her second-in-command at the time. The location of the SP is not near the edge of the Dragonbrand.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You should read the line between the two you bolded of my post:

He promises power and then corrupts, which is unusual for Elder Dragons but how he does things.

It’s what he does, not what he’s forced into doing because he can’t do other things. He only corrupts willing beings because that’s his choice, not because he can only corrupt willing beings.

I did, and it doesn’t change the fact that what you wrote essentially claimed that Jormag only corrupted willing subjects (something that it looks like you’re claiming again now). This second sentence only gives the means by which he gains willing subjects and points out that the other dragons don’t bother seeking consent… which does nothing to contradict the impression from the parts I underlined that that was the only way he did things.

We don’t currently know anything about how Jormag corrupts directly because we have no references of jormag corrupting directly – willingly or otherwise. There are multiple cases of Svanir corrupting unwilling subjects – a quaggan in Frostgorge Sound, a significant character in HotW. Edge of Destiny also has that oft-repeated line about the men that go off to fight the Dragonspawn returning as icebrood – somehow, I doubt that every single male out of a group that set out to slay the Dragonspawn is going to willingly convert. Furthermore, the whole point of the laurels – which later became the tattoos used by Destiny’s Edge – was to protect against the Dragonspawn’s mind powers that would otherwise force a victim to convert. And the description of the Dragonspawn definitely makes it sound like a constructed champion rather than a transformed Svanir, so your claim that only the Svanir shamans inflict coerced corruption is inaccurate.

The impression I get from Jormag’s form of corruption is that it’s mental – it converts the mind first, and then slowly converts the body. Willing subjects, such as the Sons of Svanir, shorten the process and allows the dragon or its representative to save the power that would otherwise be expended in beating the subject’s mind into subjugation – but nothing we’ve seen indicates that Jormag is at all squeamish about forcefully converting a helpless victim. Technically, the forcefully converted may be giving consent, but only because they’ve been mind-controlled into it.

There does seem to be a distinction, but the distinction seems to be in what is required for each dragon to create a minion. Kralkatorrik seems to have it the easiest – all that is needed is contact with a sufficient quantity of Kralkatorrik’s energy. Zhaitan generally seems to need to kill an enemy to convert it, but can do whatever he pleases once he has a corpse. Primordus we’re still not sure if he can even convert a living creature at all. Jormag’s method seems to be closest to Kralkatorrik, but slower, requiring the consent of the minion-to-be or the performance of a ritual to force consent.

Mind you, the difference may simply be one of distance – Kralkatorrik flew over the Brand to create it, while as far as we know Jormag is still far to the north of the playable area. It might be that up close Jormag could convert all but the strongest-willed similar to Kralkatorrik, but the icebrood outposts we see are at the edge of an empire reaching down from the arctic, and the sheer distance involved weakens his ability to corrupt even through intermediaries – thus explaining why he focuses more on seeking volunteers rather than conscripts.

Another reason why Jormag may seek volunteers comes from previous discussions on how ‘true’ dragon minions require a certain investment of power in order to remain truly sapient. Use of non-icebrood volunteers may be a means of bypassing this limitation – for the energy that Zhaitan uses to animate a relatively mindless Brute or Thrall, Jormag can grant powers of elemental ice to a Son of Svanir and have an intelligent* servitor at a fraction of the energy budget required to maintain a sapient minion. Unwilling subjects are transformed into the cheaper, nonsapient form of icebrood – because a mindless soldier is better than no soldier at all – while Sons of Svanir that prove worthy of the energy required for icebrood that retain their sapience are tranformed as a reward.

This would also have the side effect of setting a de facto hierarchy among Jormag’s minions that matches observed behaviour – cheap, non-sapient icebrood on the bottom, then Sons of Svanir, then sapient icebrood (including transformed Sons).

*For a certain value of ‘intelligent’ – these are the Sons of Svanir, after all.

As I said, the Sons of Svanir have shown to corrupt unwilling and hesitant individuals. But these are the Sons of Svanir, not icebrood – mindless or otherwise.

Dragonspawn is an interesting subject – but keep in mind the description of the sole detailed icebrood that returned – a norn who’s face was half caved in. That guy couldn’t be alive, so its likely the norn sent back are all corpses. Or at least most of them. The Dragonspawn nearly corrupted Zojja, via mentally getting her to want to be like the Dragonspawn (more or less) – in other words, the Dragonspawn “tricked” (mesmer-like) Zojja into wanting to become icebrood. But this doesn’t seem to be the case with any other dragon champion of Jormag’s, so I’m betting this is a unique champion (as neither Drakkar nor the Nornbear did this, nor does the Claw of Jormag by all indications).

Though my point remains – regardless of wording, it seems to be Jormag’s choice to first seduce and then corrupt (mentally or otherwise). And by seduce, I mean more of “convince to join.” Similarly, it seems to be Primordus’ choice to not corrupt living beings (though given his means of making destroyers, it is possible he can’t, but I’d say he’s the only ED with a possible limitation, though again his means to make destroyers may just be due to the fact they’re made of rock and lava not living beings).

I think that Jormag can and does corrupt women. The Sons of Svanir are drawn to dragon for the promise of power—but women can also be tempted by power. So wouldn’t there be women who seek dragon’s power too? Obviously, they can’t go to the Sons of Svanir, but I bet plenty of power-hungry women seek out dragon on their own. Since the female servants of dragon have to seek power individually and alone, they are probably virtually unheard-of. They probably keep their activities hidden, instead of being loud and obvious about it as the Sons are.
Another possibility is that dragon keeps his female servants hidden. This could be for a number of reasons.
1. Jormag knows that it can weaken the Norn by dividing the men and women. So if it allows its Sons of Svanir to spread sexist ideas among the Norn, this creates contention and divides the Norn as a people. If they become too focused on Men VS Women or Oppression VS Equality, they’ll be easier to destroy. In this case, it may be more useful for Jormag to only corrupt men. Or if it does corrupt women, it keeps them far away so the Sons of Svanir don’t know about them.
2. Jormag has a use for female servants that we don’t know about. Maybe the corruption of a female body allows it to do something a male body can’t. Spawn icebrood at will? If that were the case, Jormag would keep the female servants close by as its army-making-machines. Or, maybe they act as the “Mouths of Jormag” the way Zhaitan has a Mouth. Maybe females make better “Mouths of Jormag” because of some magical umbilical cord connection to Jormag himself. It’s possible lol

You and your birthing fetish, people!

Jeesh

Why would he breed Icebrood when he can just wave his figurative wand at random beings and transform them into Icebrood?

Jormag doesn’t care who he corrupts. Surely he can corrupt Norn females. They might not join the Sons of Svanir, but it won’t surprise me that Iceblood female Norns would exist.

It would be cool if the males and females ends up fighting against each other for dominance.

Oglaf.1074:

You and your birthing fetish, people!

Jeesh

Why would he breed Icebrood when he can just wave his figurative wand at random beings and transform them into Icebrood?

I’d be just another means of producing an army.

However, everyone’s forgetting one very important fact:

There is no known dragon minion which breeds, icebrood or otherwise. This is why the destroyer “eggs” were such a surprise in the skritt racial storyline (though I cannot see those as being eggs laid in a conventional animal manner, give how they spawn fully formed Destroyer Crabs, and I think a Destroyer Troll too).

Actually, risen spiders lay eggs, witch do hatch. Glint also had at eggs and at least one of them hatched. Of course I’m not sure if they “breed”, but they do lay eggs that do hatch young.

In the case of Glint, she likely made those in the same manner that any dragon champion can make more of their kind, albeit slightly differently since they might not have been corrupted beings.

The spiders is a good point, though, but its likely a case that the spider was killed while pregnant – which is one of the two possibilities presented off the bat for the destroyer “eggs” (after all, a corpse cannot breed – of any ED minion, I’d expect destroyers and risen to be the ones who no matter what cannot reproduce by biological means).

Doesn’t that mean that the human Risen in Orr could get “jiggy with it” and spare Zhaitan the need to kill people in order to make more “zombies”…?

Like I said, corpses cannot procreate.

So no.

Kerithlan.1659:

You can always /shrug and assume she’s transgender like I would. Not a big deal.

Interesting thought to be honest.

By the way, there are also some concept arts of centaurs with evident icebrood corruption.

http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/9059841_orig.jpg

And also in this other concept you can see a norn female icebrood:

http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/3434049_orig.jpg

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Orrian_Centaur_concept_art.jpg
concept art is concept art, not truth. Although stuff like this would be alright in my book…especially when I just stumbled upon ‘DE in the Jade Sea’

That concept art of the “icebrood” norn – the rightmost male is art that’s also used as armor concept (there was an image with it then another lineart design of it showing the different dyable areas where the ice itself would be dyable). I personally presume those four models were early Honor of the Waves armor concept art designs – the right two being heavy, the leftmost being light, and the second-to-the-left being medium.

If that were the case, that would have been muuuuuuch better than current HotW armor (I was really disappointed it wasn’t in-game!).

I agree on that. If that was the armor awarded by trading HoTW tokens I’d have definitely gotten that because it looks somuch better.

Who is to say women Aren’t Icebrood Colossus, or those hulking Icebrood Norn they could have been anything before they were mutated

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Sons_of_Svanir_03_concept_art_%28Icebrood%29.jpg
http://www.almarsguides.com/Almar%27s%20Stuff/Gw2/Farming/Corrupted%20Lodestone/Icebrood%20Colossus.jpg

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s old concept art from a concept artist who has done quite a few of the armor designs – especially dungeon armors, including heavy CoF armor, T3 human (dubbed “Crescent Moon” armor), and Whispers heavy.

Artist’s wiki category: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Art_by_Hyojin_Ahn
Original concept art: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Norn_svanir_female_concept_art.jpg

Instead of being proto Sons of Svanir, I’d say that was one of the armor designs for Honor of the Waves.

And I would say, from the file title, that it simply, as the op suggested, Norn Svanir Female concept art. Pretty simple.

As for what happens to the females that go to fight the icebrood.. no one knows.

God, I detest lore know-it-alls who flatly state that their “opinion” is fact.

Agreed.

It is concept art from before they were the Sons of Svanir, I reckon.

Sons of Svanir – I think we can safely say that as a blatantly misogynistic fraternity, no, they don’t include women in their ranks. IF partially ice-tainted Female Norn exist, we have a good idea what they look like (see concept art), but we can’t readily point to one in game to confirm their existence. IF they exist, they’re operating outside of the Sons’ and our line of sight and likely do not have any similar cultish tone. More plausibly from what we know, lightly tainted Norn women would be individuals who either contracted the Ice-ick in combat or sought out Jormag for a more personal contract for power, rather than going through the main recruiting office.

Heavily ice-tainted (icebrood) Norn largely lose their sexual markers of any sort, so we just have to kinda guess about their origins. The is no button for lift the tail and check after you’ve killed them .

My guess is the dragons don’t give a soft, white kitten about out gender distinctions and are kind of waste-not want-not conquerers: so Norn women that get the Ice-ick may get hauled off by ice-brood somewhere away from the Sons to finish their metamorphosis. That Jormag might make allowances for the odd sensibilites of his ‘worshipers’ is justifiable only because Jormag seems to have a softer touch when it comes to corruption – likely because willing self-corruption probably offers a significant savings on energy expended by the dragon (or a significant gain in minion intellect for the same energy expenditure).

Oh, I think we’ll get to see Icebrood Queens further up north. Remember, no women ever return once taken by Jormag and his Icebrood. I doubt he would capture them just to kill them.