Guild Wars 2

Nike.2631:

My guess is the dragons don’t give a soft, white kitten about out gender distinctions and are kind of waste-not want-not conquerers

I disagree with the notion that all Elder Dragons follow the whole “waste not want not” concept – Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings, so that’s a lot of wasting (I find it unlikely that he can’t), and Jormag doesn’t seem to corrupt (except via Sons of Svanir forcibly corrupting) those who don’t come to him first, as just two examples.

I would say that they’re picky eaters, so to speak, but I wouldn’t say that Jormag doesn’t corrupt female norn – he likely just keeps them away from the Sons of Svanir for morale purposes. Or alternatively, there’s just no sapient female norn icebrood which would still work for the Sons of Svanir since that’s “using your kind” rather than “granting your kind power” as they say to non-norn in Hoelbrak.

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

Maybe he’ll be taking a page out of Jormag’s book and we’ll see norn women turned into Icebroodmothers. Ew.

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

There is no evidence that Jormag does this.

Oglaf.1074:

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

There is no evidence that Jormag does this.

Jormag is the power behind the Sons of Svanir and the singular source of the Icebrood corruption. Captives go in the ice cells. Icebrood comes out. No, Jormag doesn’t come personally to turn them, but by that logic, there is also no evidence that Zhaitan can raise and corrupt the undead – have you ever seen him personally do so?

I imagine that female Norn are captured and given to the Sons of Svanir for use as playthings/breeders. There is a conversation between two Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak (I think?) about what to do with female Norn, and one of them was arguing that they’d still need to keep women around in order to make new Sons of Svanir. Same way that the Flame Legion also has female Charr in their ranks, but we never see them.

Heh. If the charr ever finish defeating the Flame Legion, there’s gonna be some awkward discussions on how to integrate all the freed females into society.

I could think of a few uses for a female Charr slave. wink wink nudge nudge

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Like I said, corpses cannot procreate.

So no.

False. There are several events in Orr that specifically have the player deal with procreating risen animals. The NPC chatter/text in these state this is specifically for the reason that allowing them to procreate results in more risen.

In fact, there’s an Asura specifically researching exactly how this is possible, as the whole concept is rather troubling.

Supported by ingame events, we know that at the very least risen Spiders and Drakes can and do procreate, and are only left to infer that other risen can as well.

Gaudrath.6725:

Oglaf.1074:

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

There is no evidence that Jormag does this.

Jormag is the power behind the Sons of Svanir and the singular source of the Icebrood corruption. Captives go in the ice cells. Icebrood comes out. No, Jormag doesn’t come personally to turn them, but by that logic, there is also no evidence that Zhaitan can raise and corrupt the undead – have you ever seen him personally do so?

Jormag corrupts only with promises of power. That his followers then go on and abuse others doesn’t change that fact.

Zaxares.5419:

I imagine that female Norn are captured and given to the Sons of Svanir for use as playthings/breeders. There is a conversation between two Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak (I think?) about what to do with female Norn, and one of them was arguing that they’d still need to keep women around in order to make new Sons of Svanir.

Can you track down the dialogue for this? The one I recall comes fairly early in the Norn personal storyline, where one Son of Svanir asks another how they’ll make more Sons of Svanir without any women, and the other responds with something like “… curse your logic”.

My impression from what I’ve seen of the game and the lore is that the Sons don’t keep women around. I’ve found no evidence that the Sons keep, or allow, women around for domestic work or sex (and I’ve had an eye out for it), while the recruitment of Sons of Svanir from the general Norn population is both shown and discussed. The comments the Sons make to and about women give me more the sense that they want to be manly men, doing manly things with other men (and dragons), and that contact with women isn’t something they look for. I wonder if some players make human assumptions about Sons of Svanir wanting to show dominance over servile women that don’t translate to Norn culture, maybe?

That said, I don’t have the full picture, and one clear piece of dialogue could change all this. I’m keen to learn more.

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

Sons of Svanir corrupt forcibly for Jormag.

Jormag, his champions, and full-blown non-SoS Icebrood have shown no signs of this (yet).

The difference here is that the Sons of Svanir, having their own intelligence which is capable of going against Jormag’s will, is simply transferring his power to others. This doesn’t mean Jormag wants them to corrupt forcibly. Though it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t either.

Zaxares.5419:

There is a conversation between two Sons of Svanir in Hoelbrak (I think?) about what to do with female Norn, and one of them was arguing that they’d still need to keep women around in order to make new Sons of Svanir.

I recall a similar dialogue between Sons of Svanir in the Protect the Spirits norn personal storyline. I remember it cuz it was funny – one norn saying he’s glad they don’t let women into their group, because they’re annoying. Another agrees, but then says he does like their curves, and then says “besides, how are we going to make more of us without women?” to which the first says “I hate the way you think.” or some such.

PopeUrban.2578:

False. There are several events in Orr that specifically have the player deal with procreating risen animals. The NPC chatter/text in these state this is specifically for the reason that allowing them to procreate results in more risen.

In fact, there’s an Asura specifically researching exactly how this is possible, as the whole concept is rather troubling.

Supported by ingame events, we know that at the very least risen Spiders and Drakes can and do procreate, and are only left to infer that other risen can as well.

There’s only one event I can think of which deals with risen making babies – one in Malchor’s Leap about drake eggs hatching.

However, it’s never mentioned that the drake eggs were laid.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gaudrath.6725:

Jormag does corrupt forcibly. Sons of Svanir shamans can perform rituals which can forcibly turn someone into Icebrood, and there are icy prisons where prisoners are also turned into Icebrood against their will, as we can see in Frostgorge Sound.

Sons of Svanir corrupt forcibly for Jormag.

Jormag, his champions, and full-blown non-SoS Icebrood have shown no signs of this (yet).

The difference here is that the Sons of Svanir, having their own intelligence which is capable of going against Jormag’s will, is simply transferring his power to others. This doesn’t mean Jormag wants them to corrupt forcibly. Though it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t either.

Can they go against the will of Jormag? It is specifically stated that once a Norn goes down that path, they never return. There is in fact only ONE example of anyone returning from the path to becoming icebrood, Rojan the Penitent. AND he has to fight it all the time.

Further, the fact that Jormag forcibly corrupts through proxies is irrelevant. The ability to corrupt comes through Jormag. Without the elder dragon, the Svanir would have no means to create icebrood. Are you saying the Svanir are using the elder dragon as a tool and abusing the power granted to them? That the elder dragon is somehow oblivious to ways his power is being used by his minions?

I find it much more likely that Jormag will sweet talk the powerful and resilient into submission – but the weak ones, he will just turn into icebrood by force.

There’s only one event I can think of which deals with risen making babies – one in Malchor’s Leap about drake eggs hatching.
However, it’s never mentioned that the drake eggs were laid.

Well, fight any of the risen spiders around Orr and watch in wonder and delight as they spew eggs which hatch into little annoying baby undead spiders. I also recall that at least one of those risen drake eggs contained an annoyed but very undead drake hatchling.

The “path” that you mention is when they become an Icebrood. Svanir “shamans” are not yet Icebrood (well, they’re more half-and-half) – that’s the whole point of what I’m saying, they still have free will and thus aren’t forced to do his will.

And no, I’m not saying the Sons of Svanir – I’m saying that they don’t follow his preference of corruption (note: all Elder Dragons seem to hold a preference for how they corrupt, but that doesn’t mean that they cannot corrupt otherwise). It’s no different than the amulets and other artifacts embued with Zhaitan’s corruption that is capable of corrupting living beings like Kellach, despite the fact that Zhaitan and his risen themselves never EVER corrupt living beings.

There’s a difference between “how the dragon corrupts” and “how non-minions use their magic to corrupt others” – Svanir and Jormag are not the only case here. The Inquest on a whole at the Crucible of Eternity are this very situation. The only difference is that the Svanir revere Jormag and treat their corrupting others as a gift, rather than a tool.

And it’s outright shown – both through the Sons of Svanir, Frozen Portal skill challenges (one in Lornar’s and one in Frostgorge), as well as a Pact officer in Frostgorge that Jormag goes after those who want power – not necessarily those who are powerful or are weak.

And as for the risen spiders and drake eggs – that’s not proving anything. Corrupted while pregnant, corrupted while in the egg. Oddity proven.

Wow, we agree on a lore issue at last Konig!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The “path” that you mention is when they become an Icebrood. Svanir “shamans” are not yet Icebrood (well, they’re more half-and-half) – that’s the whole point of what I’m saying, they still have free will and thus aren’t forced to do his will.

Not my point. They have free will to use Jormag’s power, but he allows it. He is also aware of everything Svanir do. He could stop them any time he wanted if he didn’t like what they did with the power they gave them.

So basically, what I just said is the same reason why Nazi commanders got executed for after WWII. Chain of command. More so in this case, since Svanir actually revere Jormag and his word is sacred to them. Especially Svanir shamans. Jormag is their totem spirit. No shaman of Bear would act against Bear’s will and guidance. No shaman of Jormag would do so either, especially because Jormag would be much nastier about it. And he could just take away that power if he wanted.

You can’t say that Jormag doesn’t corrupt by force when his minions (yes, minions, because those Kodan are dragged into ice cells by Icebrood, not by regular Svanir) do exactly that.

And as for the risen spiders and drake eggs – that’s not proving anything. Corrupted while pregnant, corrupted while in the egg. Oddity proven.

You could say that. I seem to remember one poster saying something about local NPC’s going on about how risen animals reproduce, but I can’t recall that myself so I have nothing more to add to this.

How do you know Jormag is aware of everything the Sons of Svanir do? How do you know that he’s actually allowing them to tap into his energy every single time and can cut it off whenever he wants? You don’t. You’re making assumptions, presumptions even.

Or maybe he just doesn’t care what they do with his power, so long as he gets more minions, but he himself – and by extension those who don’t have free will to do other things – shows only the desire to corrupt after converting with promises of power.

And there actually are shamans who act against the standard will and guidance of their totem spirit – see Vilnia Shadowsong, a Raven shaman who slaughters children. I somehow doubt Raven goes about preaching “kill your neighbors kids for power.”

To be fair though, doesn’t she kill children to selfishly increase her own power? Not because Raven wills it?

The Spirits of the Wild don’t go around giving orders in the first place. Raven won’t say ‘kill children’, but he won’t say ’don’t kill children’ either. He’s the spirits of ravens. They’re not honorable and nice birds. They will peck out the eyes of a child just as easy as they’ll peck the eyes out of something else if they’re hungry and it’s vulnerable.

Vilnia Shadowsong follows Raven’s teachings as much as any of his other shaman.

Evil is also a highly subjective term in Norn culture. Even the Sons of Svanir aren’t considered truly evil.

Right. They’re considered misguided. We can assume that since the Norn live in a sort of “do what you want outside of meadhalls” kind of society, fighting amongst each other isn’t considered a direct impending threat that the norn need to unify against. Norn likely understand Jormags corruption is bad and try to stop it, but It still seems they allow the Sons to hold on to their territory and don’t attack unless attacked first. It’s like they’re stuck between hating Jormag but respecting the Sons “right” to act like kitten. Norn are all about life and freedom, specifically personal freedom, so it’s obvious there’s some morale code or law that makes it unfavorable to unite against or subject another norns beliefs, even if they’re fundamentally bad. This doesn’t mean the norn can’t go in and kill the Sons because the sons are attacking, but I don’t think the norn feel it’s morally just to wage war or persecution against them.

My take on it:

They hold a grudge against Jormag because he chased them away from their native lands long ago and for the corruption he brings. However, they don’t seem to actually believe Jormag to be evil but rather a force of destruction and corruption which simply acts according to it’s own nature. They wouldn’t accept the Sons’ notion of him being a Spirit of the Wild otherwise. Kinda like how a wolf isn’t really evil when he kills and devours a baby deer or something equally cute and cuddly. As such they don’t think the Sons are evil for venerating Jormag as Dragon.

Eh, I think it is simpler than that. Norn positively hate Jormag. They have his tooth hung in the great lodge and the whole community is always abuzz who will be the next to try and crack it, a test to see when they will be ready to march north to kill the elder dragon.

So basically, Norn can’t wait to off Jormag. They just hesitate because they know it cannot be done yet. Even then there are often individual norn who go north by themselves to face Jormag (and return as Icebrood or not at all).

The reason they don’t hunt Svanir down on sight is because Norn value individuality above all else. Group allegiances are not important to them. So just because someone says they follow Dragon is not enough for them to be hunted down.

But as soon as they show they follow Dragon, axes are out. Individuals are defined by their actions, not words.

But Norn definitely do NOT accept the idea of Jormag being a Spirit of the Wild or even anything close. To them he is the destroyer, the icy death and a great enemy.

Finally, yes, you could say that it is presuming to claim that Jormag knows everything Svanir do. However, we do know that to be a Shaman, one has to commune with the Spirit in order to be granted powers. The Spirit definitely knows what you do with that power (and yes, Raven wouldn’t mind killing of children as much as one might think).

It is logical to assume that an entity as powerful as an Elder Dragon would know, at least, what the shamans are up to, since they are the ones most closely communing with him and the only ones who can wield his power of corruption outside of icebrood.
Furthermore, as I said, it is icebrood which drags captive Kodan off to be forcibly corrupted in Frostgorge. Icebrood are just as connected with Jormag as risen are with Zhaitan. They are a direct extension of his will. Tools, if you want. So yes, if Icebrood are forcibly corrupting, then Jormag is.

And I do not see what the problem is. Jormag will assault your body AND your mind. Which makes him that much more dangerous. Even those who would be very difficult to forcibly corrupt could fall prey to his promises of power. Does not mean those who can resist being seduced into corruption are safe.

Sons of Svanir are allowed in Hoelbrek, or at least the outskirts of the city. This means that despite Jormag hate, the Norn still respect their rights of worship and only attack if the Sons start attacking or converting.

The Norn seem to look at the Sons similar to how we might look at people who get a lot of tattoos or piercings. There’s disapproval, a comment that they’ve made bad choices in life, but ultimately it’s that person’s choice. Similar to how some people treat smokers, even. They might disapprove, give speeches, make them smoke outside, but if they want to smoke, they can smoke.

Obviously, the analogy breaks down if the Sons actually hurt or attack anyone, but even then the Norn only counterattack against those specific individuals. If there are five Sons in a bar, and four suddenly stab random people, those four will be killed. But the fifth won’t even be treated differently. There’s no guilt by associated for Norn.

Bard.7215:

Right. They’re considered misguided. We can assume that since the Norn live in a sort of “do what you want outside of meadhalls” kind of society

Strictly speaking, you can do what you want inside the meadhall – it just might get you kicked out. For all intents and purposes, Hoelbrak is one large homestead owned by Knut Whitebeard. So if he says, ‘No killing ’, the Norn respect that because it’s his house. But they can easily go outside and kill someone, because that’s not inside Knut’s house anymore.

Gaudrath.6725:

But Norn definitely do NOT accept the idea of Jormag being a Spirit of the Wild or even anything close. To them he is the destroyer, the icy death and a great enemy.

Evidence…?

The game story pretty much says otherwise.

Bard.7215:

Sons of Svanir are allowed in Hoelbrek, or at least the outskirts of the city. This means that despite Jormag hate, the Norn still respect their rights of worship and only attack if the Sons start attacking or converting.

That’s because Norn reverence of the Spirits also revolves around actions. Norn come to the temples and shrines of the Spirits with tales of their actions and offerings to honor the said spirit. A Norn who just sits around and does nothing but talk about how they revere a certain spirit is not considered to be reverent of that Spirit.

Likewise, Svanir who only talk about revering Dragon but do nothing are left alone because to Norn, words are cheap. Actions matter. You are what you do.

And yeah, Hoelbrak is just one big Lodge. However, there is one difference, and that is the Wolfborn, who WILL take you out if you start attacking people on the streets around Hoelbrak. Svanir are allowed in their caves only because they just talk the talk but do not walk the walk.

Oglaf.1074:

Gaudrath.6725:

But Norn definitely do NOT accept the idea of Jormag being a Spirit of the Wild or even anything close. To them he is the destroyer, the icy death and a great enemy.

Evidence…?

The game story pretty much says otherwise.

At best they might consider him same as Darkness… something to be overcome. Definitely not an equal to Bear or Raven, or even Owl. They do not accept that Jormag has anything to offer them except a test of their own strength.

Svanir think otherwise.

Oglaf.1074:

Gaudrath.6725:

But Norn definitely do NOT accept the idea of Jormag being a Spirit of the Wild or even anything close. To them he is the destroyer, the icy death and a great enemy.

Evidence…?

The game story pretty much says otherwise.

Well, no, the game pretty much agrees with Gaudrath. More than one Norn NPC says that Jormag is not a Spirit, that the Sons of Svanir are fools, etc etc. And they obviously consider him a challenge to be conquered, mostly because Norn consider everything as a challenge to be conquered.

Only the Sons of Svanir actually refer to Jormag as a Spirit.

Gaudrath.6725:

Eh, I think it is simpler than that. Norn positively hate Jormag. They have his tooth hung in the great lodge and the whole community is always abuzz who will be the next to try and crack it, a test to see when they will be ready to march north to kill the elder dragon.

Er… that’s not hatred the norn have in your example.

The tooth is a trophy from a legendary hunt, and Jormag is the ultimate prey (because he’s also the “ultimate predator”) – he fell hero after hero in the past, so whoever kills him will be beyond legendary. And norn are all about making their legends.

The norn as a group don’t hate Jormag – though there are plenty of individuals who do (and hate Sons of Svanir too) for personal reasons. They do, however, seem to want to return up north as a whole and know that Jormag prevents such.

But again, there’s not much racial hatred towards Jormag. Just personal.

Regarding shamans – you admit you make assumptions, then argue why by making more assumptions (that Jormag would be able to tell because he’s powerful and because the Spirits of the Wild can tell).

Regarding icebrood taking kodan – interesting to note, if so (I only recall kodan being imprisoned in ice, but not that they’re not wanting to be corrupted – after all, who’s to say what mental battles are going on when they’re encased in ice? It’d be an assumption to say there are no such things in such a situation, given how icebrood and Jormag are all about mindkittening (then again, it’s also an assumption to believe there is a mental battle)). It seems that kodan are the one and only race that are forcibly corrupted then. Not only by icebrood, but by Svanir as well – unless you know of some Svanir case I do not (the closest case I can think of for a non-kodan being forcibly corrupted is a norn who goes to a shaman for power but becomes hesitent when the shaman offers to give him Jormag’s power).

And it should be noted that Jormag’s mental “seducing” – based on Edge of Destiny – is less “do you want power? If yes, become my icebrood!” but more of a jedi mind trick. It’s still convincing to join before corrupting, but those with weak wills seem to fall even if they would say no if asked. This being based on how Zojja reacts to the Dragonspawn (with her “it’s just like me” admirably said statemen or whatever it was).

Son of Elias.5420:

Well, no, the game pretty much agrees with Gaudrath. More than one Norn NPC says that Jormag is not a Spirit, that the Sons of Svanir are fools, etc etc. And they obviously consider him a challenge to be conquered, mostly because Norn consider everything as a challenge to be conquered.

Only the Sons of Svanir actually refer to Jormag as a Spirit.

I may be wrong, but I thought that Oglaf was referring to the “destroyer and icy death” part not the “not a Spirit of the Wild” part.

Well, I base my opinion on the fact that as you walk through the world and listen to Norn NPC conversations (and I have pretty much heard every one of them), you start to pick up a theme. The Tooth is there as a trophy, yes, but also as a constant challenge. The Norn are all about their legends, but they are not dumb. The fact that they have the Tooth there to serve as a test for Norn heroes indicates that the idea of fighting Jormag is pretty deeply ingrained in their society, but that they want to be sure before they go off to fight him.

And of course, there are numerous Norn who can’t just stand around waiting, and go off on their own. That too tells you something about how much they want to fight Jormag.
Sure, you could say that Jormag is hard to resist as an ultimate challenge, but I didn’t get the feeling Norn are just dumb muscle mountains who can’t think straight for five minutes. But if they really hate him… if they lost family and loved ones to him… yes, then I could understand going off on their own, do or die attempts.

As for shamans, it is not an assumption that they must commune with their source of power. That’s what shamans do. They are spiritual guides, interpreting the will of their totem Spirit… in the case of Svanir, their shamans do the same for Jormag among the non icebrood Svanir. It is a pretty safe bet to assume they commune with him, and if they commune then he knows all about what they do with the power he gives them.

I just conceded that it is a bet, even if it is a safe one.

Kodan… yes, we do not know what goes on in the ice cells, although the “force” part is being dragged into one, that’s for sure. And kodan do have their own weaknesses, what with how their Voices lose their cool at most inapropriate times.

There are also examples of quaggan captives being turned into icebrood by Svanir shamans. And we still don’t know what Jormag does with Norn women that are captured. It is unlikely he just kills them. So he either keeps them around as trophies (unlikely, he isn’t Jabba the Hutt), or more likely does something horrible to them by force.

My point is – Jormag isn’t nice. If you say no, he will slap you around until you say yes, or die.

basically, the tooth of jormag serves a double purpose

it reminds everyone of one of the greatest challenges a norn can face (as well as provide a more tangible “face” for the enemy that cost them their old home) and it’s a way for calmer norn to hold the rush ones back

“dude, you can’t even scratch his tooth, what makes you think you’re strong enough to take him on? go get stronger first”

Gaudrath.6725:

The fact that they have the Tooth there to serve as a test for Norn heroes indicates that the idea of fighting Jormag is pretty deeply ingrained in their society, but that they want to be sure before they go off to fight him.

And I agree, however, I have seen nothing – and I’ve seen a lot (I somehow doubt you’ve seen all NPC dialogues, btw) – to indicate that there is a racial hatred towards Jormag.

Wanting to fight Jormag != hating Jormag. Not to norn. Maybe it would to humans, but norn are not humans, they are norn (yup, had to).

There are norn with a personal vendetta against Jormag, and against the Sons of Svanir, but as a race I see no racial hatred. They see him as a challenge and as a threat, a means to build their legends, but not all hate Jormag. And this doesn’t make the norn “dumb muscle mountains who can’t think straight for five minutes” either.

And Edge of Destiny shows that some norn who go off to fight Jormag or his champions alone are just looking to increase their legends, and not for personal vendettas. Sometimes drunk too.

Regarding shamans – it is an assumpion that Svanir shamans do such. There’s certainly no norn outside the Svanir who believe they commune with Jormag (or that there are even true Shamans at all). And all we see is that they are able to siphon Jormag’s power to turn others into Icebrood, while slowly becoming Icebrood themselves. You even contradict yourself by first saying “it is not an assumption that they must commune with their source of power. That’s what shamans do.” and then in the same paragraph saying “It is a pretty safe bet to assume they commune with him” – so which is it? Not an assumption, or a safe assumption? The latter, which still makes it an assumption and thus not fact.

Being forced into a prison isn’t the same as being forced into joining sides.

And I never said Jormag is nice. I would never argue such, given how he seems content to destroy everything that doesn’t want power or isn’t powerful. He seems to rule under the notion of power is life, and is simply willing to let others join him – I’d argue more out of making things easier for himself rather than being “nice.” If you say no, he’ll just kill you. It’s like his version of Cake or Death? Just “Power or Death?” instead.

There is however the discussion of whether or not the Elder Dragons are evil. To me, in order to be evil there must be the notion of good. I don’t think the Elder Dragons know good nor evil. They simply act as Elder Dragons do, with no bias towards our morals.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gaudrath.6725:

The fact that they have the Tooth there to serve as a test for Norn heroes indicates that the idea of fighting Jormag is pretty deeply ingrained in their society, but that they want to be sure before they go off to fight him.

And I agree, however, I have seen nothing – and I’ve seen a lot (I somehow doubt you’ve seen all NPC dialogues, btw) – to indicate that there is a racial hatred towards Jormag.

I haven’t seen ALL dialogues, just Norn ones. I have a habit of walking, not running through the game world, examining little details (which is why I am still only at 36% world discovery). And it is amazing how detailed the world is, you can learn a ton about it just by going through it slowly.

I didn’t mean racial hatred (can there be such a thing even?) – but a cultural one. I got the impression that no Norn would think twice if given a real opportunity to slay Jormag, and not only because it would increase their legend. Perhaps hate is not the right word, but they sure do not love him. Nor I would say they are indifferent.

Wanting to fight Jormag != hating Jormag. Not to norn. Maybe it would to humans, but norn are not humans, they are norn (yup, had to).

That sounds a bit too emotionally distant for Norn, and they are far more passionate than humans.

As for forcible corruption, I can present you with the ingame evidence from the personal Priory story arc where you go to help the quaggans in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. During the story arc it is made quite clear that:

1. Quaggans are being abducted
2. They are being either killed or corrupted in captivity
3. That this is performed by one of the more powerful liutentants of Jormag, in other words, Icebrood.

This alone should be proof enough that Jormag corrupts by guile AND force.

I don’t think good and evil is comparable to kindness/niceness and cruelty.

Thing with “good” and “evil” – and in fact, any form of morality, immorality, or amorality is purely societal based. The society decides what is “right” and what is “wrong” and thus how you react and act with those notions of “right” and “wrong” makes you moral (doing “right”), immoral (doing “wrong”), or amoral (not giving a kitten’s asterisk shaped butt).

However, cruelty or niceness is not subjective to this. If you’re hurting an individual, you’re being cruel – regardless of morals. And if you’re helping someone, you’re being nice, regardless of morals.

So are the Elder Dragons evil? Irrelevant. Are they cruel? Yes. Do they believe they’re being cruel or evil? Based off of Risen dialogue, no.

Edit:

I didn’t mean racial hatred (can there be such a thing even?) – but a cultural one.

Same concept, in this case. Given the whole norn race more or less has the same culture – well, the norn we know about.

Gaudrath.6725:

Perhaps hate is not the right word, but they sure do not love him. Nor I would say they are indifferent.

Neither would I, but that doesn’t mean they hate him.

I can want to fight someone without having a grudge against him. Maybe I just like to have a good challenge! Fighting can be a sport – and for all norn, fighting is a sport. One they risk their life on, daily.

And I fail to see how not hating an enemy is too “emotionally distant.”

Gaudrath.6725:

As for forcible corruption, I can present you with the ingame evidence from the personal Priory story arc where you go to help the quaggans in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. During the story arc it is made quite clear that:

1. Quaggans are being abducted
2. They are being either killed or corrupted in captivity
3. That this is performed by one of the more powerful liutentants of Jormag, in other words, Icebrood.

This alone should be proof enough that Jormag corrupts by guile AND force.

I haven’t done that story step, so I cannot argue it, but I want to state this first and foremost: it’s not tied to the order you chose. You can do that storyline with Vigil or Whispers. It’s your race that matters, the order just changes the mentor and some dialogues.

I do question though the origins of this icebrood and the means in which he corrupts. There are Sons of Svanir who turn into icebrood who retain their personality (becoming lieutentants and champions give the minion a degree of free will, though still fanatically following their dragon – for all dragons).

Couldn’t the answer be that he does both? Looking at other fiction where the Big Bad can corrupt by force or by guile, the ‘guile’ route tends to leave the corrupted with more independence, intelligence, and strength; while the ‘force’ route is more for foot-soldiers and if there’s no other option.

Man I love reading these things…but I’m forgetting to actually play the game, lol. These discussions add a lot to the story. Also make me proud for playing a Norn, your arguments definitely lend a positive/wise light to the race that might stereotypically be labelled as just big lunk-headed brawlers.

You know, I actually don’t know whether the Sons of Svanir view Jormag as a Spirit or not. Their relationship with the Icebrood, at least what I’ve seen so far (and to be fair, I’m not very far in the game at all), seems to be a bit ambiguous. If you speak to one of the Sons in Hoelbrak, he’s adamant that they do not worship Jormag; they worship Dragon. To a Son of Svanir, that’s a distinct difference. They revere Dragon as the ultimate predator, the greatest Spirit of the Wild, and the Elder Dragons like Jormag and Zhaitan are simply dragons in as much the same way that normal minotaurs are to the Minotaur Spirit. However, other Norn are adamant that there is no Dragon Spirit, and the Sons of Svanir are either self-deluded, or deluded by Icebrood shamans, which is where the animosity between the two factions comes from.

It may be that some Sons of Svanir truly believe that there is a Dragon Spirit and are seeking to emulate it by following the teachings of the Icebrood shamans. Or maybe some are simply using the Dragon Spirit philosophy as an excuse to gain power. I think it just goes to show that the Sons of Svanir are not, in and of themselves, a unified force politically and theologically.

But whatever the reason, I’m certain that once they become corrupted by Jormag’s power and become Icebrood, a Son of Svanir’s goals align with that of his Master, and their previous beliefs cease to matter.

Interesting point, Zaxares. This actually has ramifications in the other thread, about whether or not the Sons of Svanir would disband should Jormag be killed. But if they view Jormag, not as Dragon, but as a dragon, then there’s no reason they would.

Zaxares.5419:

But whatever the reason, I’m certain that once they become corrupted by Jormag’s power and become Icebrood, a Son of Svanir’s goals align with that of his Master, and their previous beliefs cease to matter.

I’m not too sure about that. Whenever you interact with the Sons in charge, who have become Icebrood, like the three end bosses in Honour of The Waves, they still spout the Sons propaganda. They seem to still cling to the belief that Jormag is Dragon, the ultimate Spirit of the Wild.

But perhaps they were given more of a free will than ordinary Icebrood in order to allowed them to recruit more Norns, who knows.

Oglaf.1074:

But perhaps they were given more of a free will than ordinary Icebrood in order to allowed them to recruit more Norns, who knows.

I’d expect it would be more for a combat purpose than the recruiting one. Free will tends to make for better fighters, after all, especially for the prideful Norn. Zhaitan’s the one with the mindless zombies shambling about. Jormag seems to prefer more… cerebral minions.

On the subject of Jormag not corrupting Norn women, I think the following:

1. A fanatical group is best driven when it has another group to hate. In this case Jormag purposely decides not to have women join the ranks of his minions so that his minions can think that being a woman or being with a woman is something wrong. Thus in this case, the Norn (and other races) are doing something wrong in their eyes and must be changed.

2. Having women not in the group is also symbolism for wanting absolute obedience and punishing mistakes. Jormag is basically saying: Jora did something wrong and thus all women are punished. Minions, do not be like Jora. Because the male Sons of Svanir have already been seduced by the power Jormag promises, naturally they’ll be afraid of that being taken away (even though they would never be released willingly – but I’m going to assume that a Son of Svanir simply doesn’t know better because Jormag is also in his mind).

3. Maybe Jormag truly believes women are weak. He could be just a sexist dragon.

My two cents.

I’m pretty sure that Jormag’s Champion tried to corrupt Jora together with Svanir, but was only able to turn him. In the cinematic she says “I resisted the power, and was cursed by it. I cannot embrace the wild. I can no longer become the bear.”

Perhaps Norn women (maybe even women in general) are immune to Jormag’s brand of corruption!

Jora wasn’t corrupted because she resisted (see: Jormag corrupts those who seek his power). This fact led the norn who went seeking his power to hate women. But given that Jormag – or rather, Drakkar – tried to corrupt a woman, I doubt the Elder Dragon is sexist or incapable of doing such (read: Jora resisted).

I guess it all narrows down to your interpretation of resisted.

There is a very strong indicator in-game that Jormag has to be viewed as at least semi-valid as a sprit: Norn Racial skills.

One for Snow Lepard,
One for Wolf,
One for Bear,
On for Raven,
One for Owl,
And… a Worm. An Ice Worm – for Dragon.

W*u*rm.

Not w*y*rm.

Wurms are not related to dragons.

The whole family of wyrms/wurms/worms words are related to dragons, and that thing, the enormous, godawful THING I killed to start my legend? Yeah. One of those.

If you think 5 out of six things in a set created by Devs are related to an obvious theme, and one isn’t…
Well, we have very different means of speculating .

Wurms in GW 2 are overgrown worms.

Not related to dragons at all.