Guild Wars 2

Even though I think we will soon get a teaser for the new raid, I’d like to analyze the few information we have as of now thanks to Massively OP:

• The raid’s name is “Bastion of the Penitent”.
• It will be accessible through a mysterious portal, which was generated by the destruction of the Maguuma Bloodstone.
• Once through said portal, raiders will be transported into a sinister and ancient place with little chance of escape.
• Mysteries are still chained behind the bastion’s walls.

These insights don’t really let transpire much, if anything at all, but we can always speculate.

First of all, I’m doubtful it will have a direct link with the White Mantle like the previous raid, mainly because it was stated that this raid will be its own thing, and there’s only one wing, meaning the story must resolve quickly, a hit-and-run situation.

The term “bastion” slowly led me to a connection with the Margonites, with their fortified structures located in the Realm of Torment, such as The Ebony Citadel; the Domain of Anguish itself (part of said Realm) was appointed by the High Priest Zhellix as being “the last bastion of Abaddon’s forces”. As far as we know, the Domain of Anguish was liberated by every remaining demonic being, it was seemingly redeemed on behalf of Kormir, but was the totality of the Realm completely cleansed? We don’t really know.

We know of two Margonites who refuted Abaddon’s way and indoctrination–here is where the “penitent” part comes in. The Lost and the Apostate are both Margonites who, for different but not dissimilar motives, refuted Abaddon and made their part in negating the fulfillment of the prophesied Nightfall; while The Lost would be a better fit for the role of “penitent” than the Apostate, as the former directly expressed his feeling of sorrow and disdain towards the Margonites as a race, I doubt the latter wouldn’t share the same feelings, and the Apostate’s interest for lost knowledge would be way more fitting for the announced mysteries.

“Bastion of the Penitent” could then refer to an old margonite structure located in the Realm of Torment, and the mysteries still confined behind the bastion’s walls could have been overwatched until today by the Apostate, commissioned by none other than Kormir.
This way we could get some more knowledge about the All and the effects of disrupting the balance of magic–while of crucial importance, this could still be regarded as secondary lore, since the overall focus would remain dragons and to an extent the White Mantle as of now.

What would the menace in such a scenario be however? Perhaps some lingering demons still determined to overthrow the Realm–we might encounter The Unseen; perhaps remnants of maddened souls resulting in crazed titans (similarly to Gorseval); perhaps some Bloodstone creations who made their way through the portal.

A counter to all of this could be that we still have to witness a rift, caused by the destruction of the Maguuma Bloodstone, transporting us away from Tyria and into the Mists (assuming rift and portal are interchangeable here).

tl;dr “Bastion of the Penitent” could refer to an old margonite structure (the bastion) located in the Realm of Torment, and the mysteries still confined behind the bastion’s walls could have been overwatched until today by the Apostate (the penitent).

My speculation is that the bosses aren’t in the slightest repentant. I think they’re actually still kind of wanting to fight

Realm of Torment was the first feeling I got, too. If this is so, then the name doesn’t refer to the individual within’s current state, so much as the purpose of the structure itself – to make those imprisoned penitent. The description certainly sounds like some kind of prison.

However, if this raid relates to the White Mantle in some form again, the other thought is that this raid may reveal the fate of Saul D’Alessio, who would certainly count as Penitent.

A prison would make sense, given the Realm’s history, but given that (as far as we’re told) the Forgotten went extinct, I wonder: who would the prison wardens, and as a consequence the captives, be?
With an opposite approach, demons and Margonites could make sense as jailers, and it could follow that the captives would be Kormir’s followers–perhaps even the same Apostate–but what about Razah? What if he was somehow captured by demons because regarded as some sort of harbinger, destined to fulfill what Abaddon tried but failed to accomplish?

If it turns out to be once again White Mantle related Saul D’Alessio could indeed make sense, but would he still be alive? I wonder why the Mursaat would even consider keeping him alive if not for the sole purpose of making him suffer; unless we’re talking about his spirit.

We weren’t told the Forgotten went extinct, exactly. We were told they are no longer on Tyria (world). “A Study in Gold” tablets do give the indication of extinction, but all that’s said is that it is the “sunset of [their] race” and that they will “be no more” but that could easily just be referring to the Forgotten who remained on Tyria – who were near extinction in GW1 – but not all Forgotten everywhere, as there were many, many more in the Realm of Torment (too many to so easily go extinct when they live for multiple millennia).

According to a spoilery leak – which I’m not going to directly address here – it appears we won’t be interacting with the Realm of Torment; it seems instead that the next raid could be dealing with the White Mantle, and to our knowledge the “penitent” could well be Saul d’Alessio. However, I can’t find a reason of why they’d be so willing to guard over him instead of just murdering him, and, since Saul was taken by the Mursaat, I wonder if we’ll actually meet any exponent from the White Mantle in the end.

Could then isolated Mursaat still be alive somehow? Could we meet with Lazarus inside the raid? I wonder if Caudecus heading to the isles of Janthir has anything to do with this.

Still, this astonishing piece of art for the raid, released on twitter by Anet, shows a giant four-horned skull, a kind of demonic imagery that, to my knowledge, is apparently unconnected to both the White Mantle and the Mursaat.

Ultimately, I really wonder who (or what) the penitent will turn out to be.


Regarding the Forgotten though, it would make sense that remnants of the race could still be in the Realm of Torment, aiding Kormir’s deed, as most of them–if not all–were isolated from the events happening in Tyria. As a consequence the Forgotten living on Tyria would not be able to acknowledge their brothers’ faith and would assume all of them to be dead, or if anything they’d think of them as being zealot custodians of that Realm.

I wonder however, as it remains a mystery, why those still living on Tyria all died off if their lifespan can actually be measured in millennia, unless those living in the Realm of Torment were blessed with a prolonged life by the human gods.

I like one of the theories being tossed around, given that leak, of the White Mantle involvement going so far as to keep whatever is there locked away.

A secret they don’t want released? Perhaps a threat they would have to send some of their strongest forces to cover?

Plus, that demonic gate I believe isn’t something up their alley anyways. I wouldn’t toss out the Underworld involvement just yet, especially considering the Armor we are crafting is related to the Envoys.

A post in the other thread about Anise/Livia theory, saying that Livia is bound to show up next week due to the major events happening, made me wonder…

What if Livia is the Penitent?

What if she was captured by the White Mantle in between Sea of Sorrows and GW2, imprisoned and locked behind ancient mursaat defenses? If it turns out Livia did become a lich as one of the two rumors presented in Sea of Sorrows suggests (though I would not tie such an event to the Scepter of Orr as many would), it could be that they imprisoned her because they could not kill her but could overpower her utilizing the Bloodstone.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A post in the other thread about Anise/Livia theory, saying that Livia is bound to show up next week due to the major events happening, made me wonder…

What if Livia is the Penitent?

What if she was captured by the White Mantle in between Sea of Sorrows and GW2, imprisoned and locked behind ancient mursaat defenses? If it turns out Livia did become a lich as one of the two rumors presented in Sea of Sorrows suggests (though I would not tie such an event to the Scepter of Orr as many would), it could be that they imprisoned her because they could not kill her but could overpower her utilizing the Bloodstone.

White Mantle capturing Livia, imprisoning and torturing her for centuries in secret since she was former Shining Blade?

Plausible, if she were captured for so long, I can’t imagine even she would be able to retain sanity too well. Maybe us freeing her from her undeath and imprisonment, guiding her soul to rest would be something an Envoy would have to do.

I wouldn’t hate that end too well if they pull off the story in the Bastion well. I definitely think that there’s something the White Mantle are trying to keep locked away, or maybe a White Mantle secret that would be mind-boggling to the point where it could change everything.

Bobby already hinted that there would be a lot of stuff to look at just with the first few minutes of going into the raid instance. I’m fairly convinced we are going to find either a lot of GW1 lore kicking in again, something we might look forward to ahead of us, or a mix.

Sykper.6583:

White Mantle capturing Livia, imprisoning and torturing her for centuries in secret since she was former Shining Blade?

Doesn’t change your point, but it couldn’t have been longer than 74 years, since we saw her free and active in SoS.

I think, from the snippet we’ve got, that a White Mantle-run prison is at least no more likely than the other possibilities. “The destruction of the Maguuma Bloodstone has opened a mysterious portal” sounds like it’s a form of one of the rifts that’s already been opening and pulling Tyrian creatures through at random, not a portal that the Mantle had established for themselves, and it describes the place as “ancient”. ANet plays fast and loose with that term, but it at least rarely refers to something that’s been continuously occupied since it was built, or that was built in the last one or two hundred years, which is the window for anything made by the modern Mantle.

That said, with the horned preview image, and Gorseval already hinting at them in GW2, if it is linked to the Mantle plot my bet is that we’re going to get an old mursaat prison built to hold one or more titans. The Penitent could refer either to a titan that decided not to be a force of destruction, since we’ve clearly seen since Nightfall that they’re intelligent entities, or to mursaat who gave up on the whole rule-Kryta-through-blood-sacrifice gig to focus on the one arguably noble pursuit of their race.

I wonder if the portal will lead us in the vicinity of another Bloodstone, one that was being used by the Mursaat for a different purpose. Don’t forget that the Door of Komalie was a portal situated right in front of a Bloodstone, and that same Bloodstone could have contributed–directly or undirectly–to the creation of said portal.
Also, I guess a portal would be more stable than a rift (unless the two are the same thing).

Still, I don’t see how this “bastion”, this “ancient place”, would have traces of the White Mantle still present to this day; unless those following Lazarus were sent there by the reborn mursaat himself for whatever reason. If this were the case, we could be asked by Lazarus to aid his cause and assist his followers.
The other scenario for the presence of the White Mantle would be that Caudecus found out something and sent forces to this bastion, or even tried to reach it by himself.

The thought of a penitent titan is very appealing, but why would he be imprisoned? Would it constitute itself to the Mursaat? Would it be regarded as a wild card, some kind of ultimate defense against other titans? Would it be subject to experimentations? Suggestive but problematic scenario I guess.

The idea of Livia being the penitent is also interesting, but how would the White Mantle capture her without the aid of a mursaat? Perhaps, if it turns out that she actually turned into a lich, the White Mantle could have used the Scepter of Orr to control her (if that’s even possible) and imprison her, hence the Scepter could still be located inside the bastion. If the events inside the raid will chronologically happen priorly to the “siege of Divinity’s Reach”, there’s a chance, in this scenario, that we could rescue Livia and let her attend the Shining Blade once again (hence appearing in the actual living world episode, but not as being Anise).
Also, as Aaron pointed out, she would be imprisoned for a maximum of 74 years–I doubt anything but ancient Mursaat’s defenses would still be operational in such a sealed place, defenses such as Jade Armors and the bound guardians (in other words, no actual White Mantle presence).

Unless–last minute crazy speculation–the whole thing will kind of function as a fractal and we will go back in time to retrace how the White Mantle was able to locate and rescue the hibernated Lazarus, whom appears to be the ultimate penitent.

The leaked screenshot provided by one of the raid testers (moron that person was for not removing a guild tag…) showed a jade construct in similar naming to GW1 jade construct bosses (“Cairn the <Something>”), and said jade boss had the description beneath “Guardian of the Penitent”.

So at the very least, it is mursaat related. It’s questionable whether it’s mursaat directly related, or White Mantle directly related and mursaat indirectly related (via WM using the jade construct).

I wouldn’t get caught up on “ancient” though. Tarir is only 200 years old and is proclaimed ancient by the Durmand Priory for being “over 100 years old for sure”. Tyrians have a very, very loose meaning of the word “ancient” – if we acted the same way they did, World War 2 would be ancient history.

A place being guarded by the White Mantle for the past 200 years would definitely count as both ancient and could easily still be guarded now, using ArenaNet’s usage of the word “ancient”, especially if whoever “the Penitent” is, is a threat they’d want to monitor.

Another idea: what if the Penitent is a seer? Maybe not the one met in GW1 (esp if that was the one on the table in Zinn’s lab), but perhaps a survivor of ancient times in a mursaat prison? Or even a Forgotten, since we know they can live for thousands of years based on dialogue from Nightfall.

Regardless, I think Saul or Livia are the most likely cases. Saul would definitely be interesting, especially if it leads into Saul appearing in the main story like Lazarus did.

I can’t imagine Livia being the penitent. What does she regret doing? I think if the raid is based on the white mantle story, it would be a fortress designed to hold someone that regrets their role with the white mantle. Possibly Saul or a mursaat. Could it be where Lazarus has been hiding out all these years?

For clarification, I believe the name was, From Reddit Fool,Cairn the Indomitable, Guard of the Penitent.

Sock.2785:

Still, this astonishing piece of art for the raid, released on twitter by Anet, shows a giant four-horned skull, a kind of demonic imagery that, to my knowledge, is apparently unconnected to both the White Mantle and the Mursaat.

That’s pretty clearly Diablo, and the portal takes us to Sanctuary.

It’s very clearly this guy

We’ll finally learn the importance of that guild emblem.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s very clearly this guy

We’ll finally learn the importance of that guild emblem.

just a styalized charr

If you haven’t seen any of the spoilers, we were almost there. Could we technically get away with combining theories?

Either way, it's apretty touching Cinematic huh? Rest in peace.

Close? Unless I missed something about the end cinematic, my second line of thought was correct The prisoner is...Saul D'Alessio.

Though the exact circumstances behind the prison are still unknown to me, though. I just got into a cleared instance before the final (?) boss.

Anyone have a source (video/dialog) of the raid yet. Or even a synopsis of the raid? I don’t see myself doing it anytime soon but I love the story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Close? Unless I missed something about the end cinematic, my second line of thought was correct The prisoner is...Saul D'Alessio.

Though the exact circumstances behind the prison are still unknown to me, though. I just got into a cleared instance before the final (?) boss.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

From my understanding, there were a bunch of human males that oddly all look the same with different degrees of age to them imprisoned and hunted down by a demon (who seemed to be either an escaped prisoner as well, or the prison warden). There were also jotun, Forgotten, and oddly ettin prisoners.

The human corpses make me think that Saul was being “cloned” and imprisoned with himself with no knowledge of this happening – the clones all being at different spans of aging, and with different names (Brandt being one), but if they weren’t clones of Saul made to suffer time and time again, why did they have the same appearance except hair color and why was the hair color only black to white? If they wanted the corpses to be obviously multiple prisoners, why not change the hair and beard or at least the color to red or blonde?

What’s truly fascinating was that the Eye of Janthir’s presence slowed down all aging, including decay of corpses.

I think there was a little ambiguity, you did getSaul right and we did uncover his fate, but we saved him with death rather than bringing him back to Tyria which catered towards my theory about sending someone off like an Envoy (hence Legendary Armor theme).

What’s bothering me is that when didthe mursaat start employing demons? Maybe I misinterpreted things but weren't the Mursaat more or less against things from the Realm of Torment? Or maybe the demons we fight in the raid were created from the Eye of Janthir, manifest from Saul's own sins. Actually the coolest thought of mine was that since Forsaken Thicket showed a preview of the White Mantle, maybe we might start encountering demons soon in the Living Story.

Either way, from what I am looking at right now, strategies will start forming soon about the encounters, from what I’ve seen the first three are extremely straight forward.

The last one though I did personally touch on a bit tonight, it’s multiphase with continued added mechanics and plenty of potential wipe scenarios. The enrage timer isn’t even close to a problem, the easiest enrage timer by far. But they just threw a dozen mechanics at you and said ‘Have fun!’, it’s rather difficult.

Sykper.6583:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Close? Unless I missed something about the end cinematic, my second line of thought was correct The prisoner is...Saul D'Alessio.

Though the exact circumstances behind the prison are still unknown to me, though. I just got into a cleared instance before the final (?) boss.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

From my understanding, there were a bunch of human males that oddly all look the same with different degrees of age to them imprisoned and hunted down by a demon (who seemed to be either an escaped prisoner as well, or the prison warden). There were also jotun, Forgotten, and oddly ettin prisoners.

The human corpses make me think that Saul was being “cloned” and imprisoned with himself with no knowledge of this happening – the clones all being at different spans of aging, and with different names (Brandt being one), but if they weren’t clones of Saul made to suffer time and time again, why did they have the same appearance except hair color and why was the hair color only black to white? If they wanted the corpses to be obviously multiple prisoners, why not change the hair and beard or at least the color to red or blonde?

What’s truly fascinating was that the Eye of Janthir’s presence slowed down all aging, including decay of corpses.

I think there was a little ambiguity, you did getSaul right and we did uncover his fate, but we saved him with death rather than bringing him back to Tyria which catered towards my theory about sending someone off like an Envoy (hence Legendary Armor theme).

What’s bothering me is that when didthe mursaat start employing demons? Maybe I misinterpreted things but weren't the Mursaat more or less against things from the Realm of Torment? Or maybe the demons we fight in the raid were created from the Eye of Janthir, manifest from Saul's own sins. Actually the coolest thought of mine was that since Forsaken Thicket showed a preview of the White Mantle, maybe we might start encountering demons soon in the Living Story.

Either way, from what I am looking at right now, strategies will start forming soon about the encounters, from what I’ve seen the first three are extremely straight forward.

The last one though I did personally touch on a bit tonight, it’s multiphase with continued added mechanics and plenty of potential wipe scenarios. The enrage timer isn’t even close to a problem, the easiest enrage timer by far. But they just threw a dozen mechanics at you and said ‘Have fun!’, it’s rather difficult.

More or less, they were just anxious of the Titans because the flameseeker prophecy told they wold meet their end at the hand of the titans (although it turnt out the player actually killed more mursaat than the titans did in the end)

I really enjoyed the new raid and how they dealt with the story, very surprising and revealing–not all was revealed of course. It totally seems like they might finally go in the direction of “angels and demons” following the eventual defeat of the Elder Dragons.


While the Realm of Torment is obviously out of question, in the final boss encounter we get ported by the Eye (or, to use Deimos’s words, “the Eye has chosen its sacrifice!”) in what seems to be another dimension, and quite a twisted one–this could very well be Saul’s own mind though, as when approaching Saul for the first time, he says: “Have you come to crawl inside my head? Join the others? There’s no more room”.
While in this dimension we can break the “demonic chains binding [Saul]” that are keeping him in a state of eternal penitence–or confining him until he finally surrenders to the nightmares infesting his mind–what’s peculiar though is that Saul himself warns us of leaving the place, else we will “make him angry”, “[we]’ll let him out”–was Deimos also confined? Was Deimos a creation of Saul’s own mind? Is Deimos a twisted perception of how Saul might have envisioned himself in the darkest recesses of his mind had he ever succumbed to the mursaat?
Deimos’s description reads “Agent of the Unseen” afterall, and could be a reference to Saul’s fear of eventually giving in to the mursaat.

Alternatively, Deimos might be an agent of the Eye itself. We obviously associate the term “unseen” with the mursaat, but what if the ultimate “unseen” is actually the Eye of Janthir? What if what we see of the Eye is just a window for a powerful interdimensional entity to watch and interact through?

I can’t not think of Kanaxai in all of this, who was said to come from a place deeper than the Mists… we might be talking about a complete new dimension here, potential parallel or alternate universes of some sort perhaps, and the Mists would be the “in-between”.

I really hope this isn’t the last time we’re going to meet with the Eye of Janthir.

Also, as an interesting note, while trying to unlock the Warden’s door–right before Samarog’s encounter IIRC–the Eye curses us with the Gift of True Sight; True Sight is defined as a curse.

Reminder: how the Eye and the mursaat are connected is still unexplained.
Also, celestials’s involvement (just saying).

Konig Des Todes.2086

Though the exact circumstances behind the prison are still unknown to me, though.

Glenna talks about the penitentiary as being a holding for potential political threats for the jailers–we know “the mursaat commissioned this place” and it’s implied by a sketch found in a journal that “[the prisoners] constructed this facility with their own hands”.

While Samarog certainly recalls the appearance of a demon, I don’t think he is one; according to Glenna he was a prisoner like others, just one tasked with supervising over others; when he broke free “the Warden killed most of these prisoners”. When asking Glenna what that creature was though, she obviously doesn’t have a clue.
What I personally find interesting is the fact he has four arms, a similar feature to the Seers and the Forgotten–I guess he could have been part of an ancient race forgotten in time (and space perhaps).

@Konig