Guild Wars 2

Episode 4 SPOILERS ahead. You’ve been warned.


In the living story step “Confessor’s End” we learn what happened to Lazarus the Dire after his plans were ruined back in GW1, roughly 250 years ago.
From notes laying on Caudecus’s desk, we read about how Xera was somehow able to discover what happened to Lazarus: “after Lazarus’s aspects were tainted so long ago, he was forced to re-split himself… this time into artifacts rather than living vessels”; and not just that, but also that “Xera [had] already found four of the five aspects”.

Caudecus would not allow Xera to complete the ritual, he would not “allow this ‘Unseen One’ to disrupt [his] plans”; he obviously resorted to subterfuge to contrast Xera.
Following Caudecus’s orders, Justiciar Bauer managed to swap one of those four aspects with a fake just in time before Xera took off north to the Stronghold of the Faithful.
The swapped aspect was not destroyed by Caudecus, as he didn’t want “that mursaat’s essence near [his] home”; the original artifact was seemingly hidden away somewhere safe, still intact.


We can’t be sure if Xera ever found the fifth aspect and/or if the ritual was ever completed; it seems however that an attempt was made by Xera’s followers in the Temple of Renewal, right before the Maguuma Bloodstone exploded–was the explosion actually catalyzed by this event?

In the living story step “A Shadow’s Deeds”, we, together with Caithe, jump-start a magic echo to try and figure out what happened in the Temple of Renewal. The echo takes place and what appears to be an Anomaly (or, to use Caithe’s words, “a brilliant light, devouring magic”) absorbs an immense quantity of magic, incidentally limiting the damages caused by the bloodstone’s explosion.


Was that Anomaly actually Lazarus? I personally think it was.
Was Caudecus’s plan successful? I think so, indeed–partially at least. Afterall, Lazarus was able to walk around while still being incomplete back in GW1.
Is Lazarus trying to save Tyria and its inhabitants? Probably. But who will he save this world for?

What I think might happen is that we’ll try to locate Lazarus’s final aspect, the one that was swapped and hidden by Caudecus (assuming Xera found the fifth and last aspect and that the reborn mursaat is 4/5 complete), to possibly blackmail him.


P.S. Is it now safe to assume that Anomalies are indeed phased mursaat?

EDIT/UPDATE:

• The supposed switched-out artifact was in Caudecus’s desk–we already have it and will proceed to send it to the Shining Blade, to find out if it really hosts a bit of the mursaat’s essence.
• Justiciar Bauer was almost certainly lying to Caudecus in his response letter–everything seems to indicate that he never actually switched the artifacts.

I don’t trust Justiciar Bauer’s statement from Caudecus’s Correspondance.

The guy wanted Lazarus to be reborn, why would he risk such a thing? Is Lazarus “complete”, then?

Sock.2785:

What I think might happen is that we’ll try to locate Lazarus’s final aspect, the one that was swapped and hidden by Caudecus (assuming Xera found the fifth and last aspect and that the reborn mursaat is 4/5 complete), to possibly blackmail him.

According to the dialogue, anyway, that aspect was in Caudecus’ desk, and we already have it and are sending it along to the Shining Blade to find out if it really is a bit of mursaat essence.

There are a couple of big questions here, and any meaningful speculation is going to require us to make some assumptions about them that may well prove false. First off, the ritual. Caudecus, the player character, and apparently even Xera believed that all the aspects would be required to revive Lazarus, but is that true? We saw him getting on just fine with only part of himself in GW1, but there were some pretty substantial differences there- now his aspects are imbued in objects, not people; it’s White Mantle who were performing the ritual, not Lazarus himself, and it might not even be the same process; and there’s no telling how the corruption would’ve played into things. For that matter, what would have happened if they’d succeeded? If Lazarus had to split into aspects to survive, why would a couple hundred years sealed inside a lamp change that? Did the Mantle even think that far ahead, or were they too fixated on having their god back? Did swallowing a bloodstone prove to be the pill needed to cure him? Whether or not we’re dealing with Lazarus, and if so, what state Lazarus is in depends quite a bit on those answers.

The other wild card is Bauer. Caudecus only had his word that the aspect was swapped, but according to Bauer’s personal journal, he was playing Caudecus false. I’d prefer not to think a man would lie in his journal- that introduces a level of uncertainty I’m uncomfortable with- but the alternative is that our cliffhanger is nothing but a red herring easily disproved after some careful thought, and I’d like to give ANet more credit than that. So which is it? Was Bauer playing Caudecus false? Xera? Both? Is the aspect we recovered from the manor genuine or not?

You both make a good point regarding Bauer–it’s not entirely clear from his memoirs what his personal priority is. Even though it was him to firstly propose the weaponization of the bloodstone to the confessor, posing “Operation Rebirth” as only a secondary objective, he’s pretty excited about the eventual success of the ritual in his very last entry, and he’s ready to proceed with their leader’s virtuous pursuits–it’s quite possible that he was one of those zealots who perished in said ritual too.

He’s willing to please both Caudecus and Xera, but who did he betray in the end? I guess this, and everything that follows, is still a mystery.

Aaron Ansari.1604

According to the dialogue, anyway, that aspect was in Caudecus’ desk, and we already have it and are sending it along to the Shining Blade to find out if it really is a bit of mursaat essence.

That must have slipped through my mind, thanks for pointing this out.

Aaron Ansari.1604

For that matter, what would have happened if they’d succeeded? If Lazarus had to split into aspects to survive, why would a couple hundred years sealed inside a lamp change that? Did the Mantle even think that far ahead, or were they too fixated on having their god back? Did swallowing a bloodstone prove to be the pill needed to cure him?

Back in GW1 Lazarus split himself into aspects in order to survive the threat of the Titans, and was seemingly able to reassemble all by himself, one aspect at a time, without the need of absorbing enormous quantities of magic (supposedly).
Once he claimed his final but corrupted aspect, he was forced to go into recovery, seemingly not by choice. It appears that he had to inform someone of his imminent re-splitting, directly or not–supposedly someone from the White Mantle. Was the stasis chamber commissioned by Lazarus roughly 250 years ago?

Absorbing an immense quantity of magic appears to have been an essential process though, and might have healed the corruption (whatever that was); however, he didn’t swallow a bloodstone, he simply absorbed a “bloodstone’s worth of magic”, as in quite a lot of magic.

Sock.2785:

The echo takes place and what appears to be an Anomaly (or, to use Caithe’s words, “a brilliant light, devouring magic”) absorbs an immense quantity of magic, incidentally limiting the damages caused by the bloodstone’s explosion.

The model wasn’t an anomaly, though there was similarities they’re definitely different.

P.S. Is it now safe to assume that Anomalies are indeed phased mursaat?

Not in the least.

They act nothing like mursaat. And the vision didn’t show an anomaly model in the first place.

Furthermore, if it wasn’t Lazarus who absorbed the magic, then it wasn’t a mursaat either, but someone (later on at least) pretending to be a mursaat.

Lots of posts incoming:

Let’s look at the evidence in reverse chronological order – starting from the last thing we found out:

Confessor’s End Finale
This piece everyone knows. Caudecus’ says this:

That fool Xera has been sneaking around behind my back, going after her long-lost “Unseen One.” Worse yet, she says she’s close to her goal.

She learned that after Lazarus’s aspects were tainted so long ago he was forced to re-split himself…this time into artifacts rather than living vessels. Apparently he learned the lesson the hard way…

Xera has already found four of the five aspects. I cannot allow her to complete the ritual – nor will I allow this “Unseen One” to disrupt my plans!

Her efforts have been slated. I’ve swapped one of the aspects with a fake – and Xera doesn’t suspect a thing. When the fifth aspect is found and she says the magic words… she’s in for quite a surprise.

Once she’s revealed as a fraud, the more superstitious among us will come crawling back to me. Normally I’d simply destroy the original and be done, but I don’t want this mursaat’s essence near my home.

This is what everyone’s focused on. And the Pact Commander as well.

They’re also focused on the fact that we “saw” this “Lazarus” fellow. Canach even brings this up. But so many forget: they made themselves visible after being present while invisible during The Rise of the White Mantle mission in GW1. They also made Saul invisible when they left… Their invisibility is neither permanent nor restricted to themselves.

Now, Caudecus feels certain that he succeeded, with no doubt in it. However…

Letters to Caudecus
Let’s look at how he got that artifact:

Confessor,
It wasn’t easy, but I managed to swap the artifacts as you requested – just in time, too. Xera took off north without so much as a word. I wish I could be there when the smug zealot’s ritual fails, when her followers turn on her and come crawling back to us. Perhaps I’ll allow some to return. But most will be fed to the bloodstone. I’m sure you’ve delayed your relocation to the queen’s palace for as long as you can, so I’ll find a way to get in touch with you there going forward. Until then, Confessor.
- Justiciar Bauer

And let’s look at the other letters regarding this plot line, for completion sake. They’re to long to post, so a link:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Puppets#Text

What we learn from this, that’s important, is that Bauer was the one who got the relic, and even before Esthel’s death and Caudecus’ rise to power in the White Mantle he showed his support to Caudecus. This becomes vital later on.

Rising Flames
Now, the well known part of this episode is that Lazarus comes to save the day, destroying destroyers left and right, offers peace and proclaims the redemptive path, and leaves with Marjory.

That’s all well and fine. Let’s look at some more specifics:

• Lazarus’s Blessing is a skill which grants Spectral Smite.

Given the name, it’s very similar to when Saul was granted Spectral Agony

• Lazarus knew where Aurene was, without any indication of being told.
• Most importantly, in my opinion, is this entry from Cami’s Journal – her final entry:

Day 7. Cami of Krewe Taimi. Taimi is going to flip when she gets this data. Nothing is as we expected. I’m starting to think we should evacuate soon or people could get killed. This place has always had a reputation as a hive of evil and I still sense doom here. It’s as if a pall of mursaat gloom hangs over the place. Mursaat. Creepy beings from who knows where, who ruled human Kryta for a long time until the uprising. Wouldn’t it be something if I ran into one? I’m heading back to rendezvous with the first raiding party. It would be tempting to cover every inch of the island, but I have to stay practical. I’ve felt like something was watching me. This island creates paranoia. Maybe it wasn’t so bright coming out here alone. If my calculations are correct, the raiding party should be camped just over the next ridge.

This is a good indication of why Lazarus knew where to be… if he was on the island when Cami and the Pact Commander was, he was invisibly following us. He was unseen.

Out of the Shadows
We all know Lazarus’ grand introduction. And now we have an explanation for Caudecus’ shock and surprise and denial when he showed up. But let’s look not at Lazarus here, not even at the explosion of the bloodstone, nay, let us look at Bauer:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conspiracy_of_Dunces

Too much to quote. Please read through them, particularly Bauer’s. I’ll wait….

Back? Good.

Bauer acts completely different in his journal than in the letters. In the letters, he comes off as a non-believer. But in the journal, on top of being as rash as his Inquisitor ancestor, he shows himself to be tricking Caudecus about the purpose of the Maguuma Bloodstone experiments and excavations. In short, Bauer is a true believer in the Unseen Ones.

If Bauer was lying to Caudecus about the experiments on the Maguuma Bloodstone, why should we trust Bauer’s claim of giving Caudecus the artifact?

On top of it all, Bauer was the one who brought people to the ritual in the mines beneath the bloodstone. “But he wanted Xera to fail!” You may say. Well, perhaps… but this ritual and Xera’s rituals are in two different places. Read the final letter to Caudecus again (first one I posted): Bauer said Xera left north. She left to the Stronghold of the Faithful. Read Valis’ journal, final entry. He mentions the stronghold has fallen.

The ritual which destroyed the bloodstone is an entirely SEPARATE event from the ritual to revive Lazarus!

Stronghold of Salvation
This is perhaps the most unknown to most players, due to being at the end of a raid. Even I’m not entirely clear on it myself due to the lack of videos, but I think I got the jist of all that happens. What’s most important is when interacting with bloodstone shards in the Temple of Awakening:

The bloodstone shards give odd a slight glow and mild heat. They appear to be mostly devoid of magic, though a residual trace of energy can be felt.

<Character name>: These shards are depleted. They’re devoid of magic.
<Character name>: Were they using them to revive the last mursaat?

There’s also the stasis chamber:

The stasis chamber is hot to the touch, with a recess in the center that appears large enough to accommodate a body. Charged bloodstones seem to be focusing magic to one spot. Ley energy seeps from the top of the device, as if the connection to Xera’s bloodstones was severed.

While it isn’t clear if the ritual succeeded, we know that something happened. Something drained the magic, and that something is tied to the stasis chamber.

Appearance with Naveed
The main thing to take into note here are two things:

• First, one of his aspects were twisted. This is why he had to re-split himself. But what, exactly, is the result of the twisting?
• Second, is that Lazarus existed as a physical being without the final aspect – we do not know the number of aspects he split into the first time, but five seems reasonable.

My Conclusions
As I see it, there are three possibilities:

• Bauer lied to Caudecus, the artifact given to Caudecus does not hold an aspect of Lazarus, and Xera’s ritual was performed without much folly.

The only problem that arose was that Lazarus was left in a still weak state, not enough magic was absorbed for the ritual to fully work. Thus he went to Bauer, who performed the ritual that exploded the bloodstone.

• Bauer lied to Xera, the artifact given to Caudecus does hold an aspect of Lazarus, and what was revived as a four-aspect Lazarus rather than a completed Lazarus.

The purpose of the stasis chamber was not to revive him, but rather to allow him to replace the magic lost with that fifth aspect; and so was the ritual beneath the bloodstone.

• Bauer lied to Xera, and the ritual failed.

Somewhere in the Temple of Awakening there are four artifacts holding an aspect of Lazarus each, somehow missed entirely when the raiders went through and observed things or perhaps scuttled away by other White Mantle while Xera fought us. Bauer performed the ritual not to improve Lazarus, but instead to improve himself. The letters to Caudecus and his journals alone prove that Bauer fits the description of being “tactical, deceptive, and powerful” – the description Canach uses for the fake Lazarus.

All three are plausible, but the second two hold the most interest.

Honestly, the idea that Bauer is the one pretending to be Lazarus is perhaps the most interesting.

But I wouldn’t go past the idea of a four-aspect Lazarus being around, perhaps that one-aspect that was missing is, in fact, the twisted one, thus making Lazarus example what he wanted to be when he re-split himself. This could even explain his change in personality.

And out there, somewhere, a one-aspect Lazarus that was twisted either exists, or is waiting to be revived as well.

what I personally think happened is simply that Palawa Joko was in a pinch with Kralkatorrik, and wanted the bloodstones, so what better way to get it than deluding an army of humans who have been using the bloodstones for generations, so he popped in waiting for the ritual, donned mursaat armor, and voila. He can begin his easter hunt for the bloodstones. In the meantime, as per his modus operandi in GW1, he would gladly side with the humans if it meant killing the elder dragons, but he wouldn’t be above betraying them thereafter

Another possibility, given the evidence, is that Bauer gave fakes to both Xera and Caudecus, because he wanted the credit reviving Lazarus himself. Xera’s ritual either fails or is only a partial success, and the four aspects of Lazarus are brought to Bloodstone Fen where Bauer has the fifth aspect.

And here is an interesting possibility that may put things into an shocking perspective:

Lazarus is revived yet the Lazarus we saw is a fraud with his own ambitions(and someone Marjory knows AKA Mr. E).

The real Lazarus could be plotting against Humanity while the fake has his own ambitions to protect the Dragon.

draxynnic.3719:

Another possibility, given the evidence, is that Bauer gave fakes to both Xera and Caudecus, because he wanted the credit reviving Lazarus himself. Xera’s ritual either fails or is only a partial success, and the four aspects of Lazarus are brought to Bloodstone Fen where Bauer has the fifth aspect.

Or even a step further back and Bauer already hakittene, thinking it was the real one. the Lazarus imposter exchanged it for a counterfeit before Bauer ever got it

@Konig Good reconstruction of the events.
It’s almost certain that Bauer lied to Caudecus, and I don’t think Caudecus even knows how to certify the artifact’s authenticity–Lazarus is way more important to Bauer than Caudecus, and he’s regarded as the White Mantle’s ultimate leader.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The ritual which destroyed the bloodstone is an entirely SEPARATE event from the ritual to revive Lazarus!

There were indeed two separate rituals, just not as separate as you pose them to be I think: one happened in the Temple of Awakening, in the Stronghold of the Faithful, and the other happened in the Temple of Renewal, right under the Maguuma Bloodstone; the nomenclatures appear to imply they might have been complementary to each other, that’s what the whole “Operation Rebirth” should be all about. Everything seems to point to Xera and Bauer sharing the same intents.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Bauer performed the ritual not to improve Lazarus, but instead to improve himself.

Upon accomplishing the ritual, we clearly see a body being formed from an empty space; that pretty much rules out Bauer performing the ritual on himself I think. In this scenario, Lazarus could/would still be sleeping in the stasis chamber.
I think it’s more likely that Bauer died amongst the others while performing the ritual.
It’s kinda obvious, from his memoirs, that Bauer idolizes Lazarus.


Another thing to add to all of this is that, while fighting Xera, she can be heard saying: “He is almost complete. Even if I die, He will live.”
What did she actually mean with that? Is there a possibility that the fifth and last artifact wasn’t even found? Or was she simply referring to the rituals?

We don’t have enough knowledge on how Lazarus’s splitting worked/works, or what the aspects themselves are and/or how do they work, but I think it’s safe to say that what happened in the past is very different from what happened just recently.
For what we know, upon assimilating the last twisted aspect, back in GW1, all of his essence might have got twisted in the process, posing him at risk and forcing him to re-split himself, this time going into some kind of hibernation, with the “turn-off switch” being directly unaccessible to the mursaat.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] replace the magic lost with that fifth aspect

We don’t even know how these aspects work.
This view would render the aspects disposable, and utterly useless in the end; why even care about recovering the aspects in the first place then?


One last thing: if we’re dealing with an impostor (which I don’t think is the case), we are dealing with a mursaat nonetheless.

P.S. I pushed the Anomaly thing a bit, following the few visual similarities we got–as far as we know, every living being’s essence might appear in a similar way (look at the updated mystic forge transformations for example).

Something struck me with Caudecus: even before we confronted him, he seemed desperate.

Who’s this? An imposter of my lost daughter? Imposters all around me!

Was he only talking about Lazarus or was he mentioning Justiciar Bauer instead? Could this be related to his possible trip to the Isles of Janthir?

Caudecus saw Lazarus, so if he was certain that Xera’s ritual was bound to fail, he would have met with Justiciar Bauer to receive explanations.

Tinfoil hat theory: Feelings Edition…

Would it be possible that the “corrupt” aspect is actually something that could/has made him a better person in the end of day? We view it as corrupt since it’s something that could weaken him and possibly kill him. They (Laz and the WM) view it as corrupt since it weakens him and makes him lesser than what the Mursaat are suppose to be.

What happens if that’s possibly feelings and a sense of general reasonableness when it comes to “lesser” beings?

@Amaimon: Palawa Joko is way too out of left field. It wouldn’t fit his personality at all, nor his methodology (he uses others to do his dirty work in a direct manner, he never does things himself – or never did when we saw him) and he shouldn’t have any clue what’s going on in Tyria let alone be capable of infiltrating the White Mantle and having a high ranking White Mantle Justiciar gather individuals to perform a ritual for him.

Plus nothing anywhere says Joko and Kralkatorrik are clashing – it was Zhaitan’s forces that Joko’s were clashing with.

@ Drax: That’s also a possibility, but I’m not sure that would really fit the persona presented in the journals. He’s impatient and seems to be uncaring about mere credit to deeds. Plus, someone would figure it all out – that kind of play is way too obvious.

@Mickey Frogeater: A possibility I entertained the thought of, but I disregarded it because the Lazarus that appeared before us in Dragon Vigil / Confessor’s Stronghold would be the same Lazarus that was with the White Mantle (including Valis the Learned and Justiciar Bauer) during the ritual. I think Bauer, of all people, would notice if the “mursaat” was a mere human, especially after the deception he pulled (be it to Xera, Caudecus, or both).

If Lazarus is a fake, then the individual is either Bauer or someone Bauer serves and would see rise to power over himself. And Bauer does not paint himself as someone who would rely on others in his journal.

@Sock: Response too long. Going to put in a separate post.

@Gorgaan Peaudesang: An interesting thought. I agree he would have at least tried to get into contact with Bauer – however, if Lazarus is real and Bauer was at that ritual, he’s dead (one of those shadows on the wall with the others, which would include Valis the Learned).

And finding out that Bauer lied to him would prompt Bauer as an “imposter” – in that of a liar and deceiver. Caudecus, after munching on bloodstones, is not very good at taking people using his own tactics against him.

I think that Lazarus is a Mursaat for sure, not something else since he did show the power of spectral agony.

Sock.2785:

There were indeed two separate rituals, just not as separate as you pose them to be I think: one happened in the Temple of Awakening, in the Stronghold of the Faithful, and the other happened in the Temple of Renewal, right under the Maguuma Bloodstone; the nomenclatures appear to imply they might have been complementary to each other, that’s what the whole “Operation Rebirth” should be all about. Everything seems to point to Xera and Bauer sharing the same intents.

I disagree on both of your points.

The ritual in the Temple of Awakening’s purpose was to revive Lazarus. The ritual in the Temple of Renewal was to empower. While the sites share nomenclature, they are far from the only ones. Take the Temple of Sacrifice – which is no doubt where they either killed or prepared the killing of their sacrifices. Then there’s the Temple of Salvation – where Matthias performed the experiments of imbuing individuals with bloodstone shards.

“Temple of” is a nomenclature not tied to Lazarus, but the White Mantle in general.

As for Xera and Bauer sharing goals, I’m not so sure. Bauer’s ability to be deceptive that is entirely lacking in his journal is definitely suspect. I think not calling Bauer’s goals as presented in the journal into question is a hasty decision that could prove a wrong move to figuring things out (just like assuming Caudecus knew the artifact was fake).

Sock

Upon accomplishing the ritual, we clearly see a body being formed from an empty space; that pretty much rules out Bauer performing the ritual on himself I think. In this scenario, Lazarus could/would still be sleeping in the stasis chamber.
I think it’s more likely that Bauer died amongst the others while performing the ritual.
It’s kinda obvious, from his memoirs, that Bauer idolizes Lazarus.

Watch the cinematic again – the figure appears in the center, then ghosts of the White Mantle appear around. The entire scene is “formed from an empty space” but the figure shows first, while absorbing the magic.

With the figure being the focal point, it makes sense that it shows up first. And since they’re not present, it’s obvious they’re going to appear from an empty space.

And I definitely do not see any idolizing by Bauer. What I see is impatience followed by faithfulness; but I wouldn’t go as far as to say idolizing. Furthermore, Bauer is cunning as shown by the letters to Caudecus. If he had any idea that the ritual may kill him, he’d send others down there, then vamoose the hell out.

Another thing to add to all of this is that, while fighting Xera, she can be heard saying: -snip rest of Xera for length-

I was going to quote Xera, but I decided not to because if Bauer did trick Xera (whether he also tricked Caudecus or not), she would remain unknowing of this trickery and would believe the ritual will complete regardless of her death.

Until we know what Bauer really did, her words are utterly meaningless, just as Caudecus’ words are.

Sock

We don’t even know how these aspects work.
This view would render the aspects disposable, and utterly useless in the end; why even care about recovering the aspects in the first place then?

We know enough to form an educated guess. This is having a very hocrux feel to it, meaning that they could be parts of his souls.

We know that without all aspects, Lazarus is weaker – this is why he wanted to obtain them all, to be at full power. This is also why he did not merely abandon an aspect.

We know one cannot destroy the aspect without also destroying the vessel.

We also know that damage to an aspect only harms Lazarus when it is reunited.

And lastly, we know that each aspect can act independently.

Replacing an aspect would be no simple feat – you seem to take my comment as if he were just replacing a computer’s graphics card or something equally insignificant to the individual. But I never meant such. Merely that he was forced to abandon the aspect due to what happened to it in GW1, and that to become close to what he once was before he needed a “replacement” for it. And that was the bloodstone magic.

If he didn’t abandon it, then he would first need to fix it. The bloodstone could do that as well – but the replacement part was under the prediction of Lazarus being a 4-Aspect Lazarus rather than a Full Lazarus.

Sock

One last thing: if we’re dealing with an impostor (which I don’t think is the case), we are dealing with a mursaat nonetheless.

Not necessarily. With the power of a bloodstone, and knowledge left by mursaat to the White Mantle, one can very easily duplicate many of their abilities. Including Spectral Agony, given even the Shining Blade was able to replicate a weakened version of such.

Now to reply to ninja posters:

Erukk.1408:

Tinfoil hat theory: Feelings Edition…

Would it be possible that the “corrupt” aspect is actually something that could/has made him a better person in the end of day? We view it as corrupt since it’s something that could weaken him and possibly kill him. They (Laz and the WM) view it as corrupt since it weakens him and makes him lesser than what the Mursaat are suppose to be.

What happens if that’s possibly feelings and a sense of general reasonableness when it comes to “lesser” beings?

This was a line of thought I had. But to really make this kind of plot work, imo, there would need to be two Lazarus’s – a good Lazarus and an evil Lazarus – which formed from four aspects and one aspect (which is which, though?).

Or alternatively, have it so that he’s good now but upon retrieving the final aspect to complete himself he becomes evil again.

Just making Lazarus redemptive then proclaim the reason is “we twisted his very essence to be good instead of evil” is rather… a boring and kitten explanation for the redemption path.

Slowpokeking.8720:

I think that Lazarus is a Mursaat for sure, not something else since he did show the power of spectral agony.

We never actually see this Lazarus use Spectral Agony. He does grant us the power of Spectral Smite, but as shown in this episode (as well as Saul in GW1), even non-mursaat can use the power of Spectral Agony. Mursaat can only use it so well due to their ability to phase into the Mists at will.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We never actually see this Lazarus use Spectral Agony. He does grant us the power of Spectral Smite, but as shown in this episode (as well as Saul in GW1), even non-mursaat can use the power of Spectral Agony. Mursaat can only use it so well due to their ability to phase into the Mists at will.

It’s Spectral Agony as well, Saul’s power was granted by the Mursaat, just like how Lazarus had given us the power to do so.

Others like Caudecus either had to be granted by the Mursaat or stay close to the blood stones to use this ability well. Nor could he grant others such power.

Konig Des Todes.2086

“Temple of” is a nomenclature not tied to Lazarus, but the White Mantle in general.
[…] I was going to quote Xera, but I decided not to because if Bauer did trick Xera (whether he also tricked Caudecus or not), she would remain unknowing of this trickery and would believe the ritual will complete regardless of her death.

I wasn’t referring to the “temple of” scheme, but to “Awakening” and “Renewal”, both directly intended for Lazarus. Firstly Lazarus had to be awakened, and just later could he be renewed.
Lazarus is in a stasis chamber, that means that his essence was still critically injured and he was kept alive–it appears that his whole essence was twisted when he reabsorbed that corrupted aspect, back in GW1.
Xera seemed pretty confident that Lazarus’s rebirth would be completed, regardless if she lived or not, and given that she was the last line of defense for the stasis chamber, she must have known about someone else aiding her task somewhere else.
Unless Justiciar Bauer lied even in his own memoirs, I don’t see why he would want to trick both Caudecus and Xera.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[Lazarus] was forced to abandon the aspect due to what happened to it in GW1, and that to become close to what he once was before he needed a “replacement” for it.

I think it’s obvious that, upon absorbing the last but corrupted aspect, back in GW1, Lazarus’s entirety was twisted in the process, forcing him to re-split completely, without an easy way back this time around. “My power twists upon itself! What have you done to me?”; couldn’t he simply remove the twisted aspect, by isolating it? Clearly not, as it became part of the whole once more, corrupting the whole essence in the process.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The entire scene is “formed from an empty space”

The whole scene, this magic echo thing that happened, isn’t different from what we witnessed in the Cathedral of Silence, with Grenth’s followers, and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance, when we witnessed orrian funerary rites.
While it’s obvious that the scenes appear from nothing, I was referring to the apparition of Lazarus’s body, which–the body–is mostly invisible; only the torso is obviously showing, and we slowly see allusions to arms and a head, there’s not an instantaneous apparition.
What I’m actually saying is: it appears clear that, even if you were there witnessing the event as it was happening, and hence not a magic echo, you would still see a brilliant body appearing from nothingness.

Konig Des Todes.2086

And I definitely do not see any idolizing by Bauer.

Idolizing might be a bit too extreme for Bauer, given that Matthias’s zealotry appears to bother him, still, as you also pointed out, “Bauer appears to be a believer in the Unseen Ones”, and particularly he believes in Lazarus, the last mursaat (or should we say the last living mursaat?).
He clearly recognizes Lazarus as the White Mantle’s true leader, posing him above Caudecus; unless, of course, he’s lying even in his own memoirs…

The way caudicus phrases it ’i’ve swapped the artifacts’ seems like he did it personally. I appreciate what bauer wrote but it could be caudicus intended on swapping two to be certain.

Darkstar.7839:

The way caudicus phrases it ’i’ve swapped the artifacts’ seems like he did it personally. I appreciate what bauer wrote but it could be caudicus intended on swapping two to be certain.

Unlikely, as Caudecus had been Queen Jennah’s “Guest” for quite some time now, so its unlikely that he’d been able to personally steal from where ever Xera was keeping the artifacts. Nor does it seem like he was able to do so either before his time at the palace or afterwards when he revealed himself to be the leader of the WM.

2 things to consider before trying to figure out who Lazarus really is.

1. It seems doubtful ANet would intentionally put a story step you cannot avoid to do a double bluff of making you doubt it’s Lazarus then reveal it really is him. I say this as most beings in Tyria won’t trust Lazarus at all anyway so it accomplishes very little having a false accusation going on as many have already outright said they don’t trust him to his face.

2. Whatever it is most certainly absorbed a bloodstone and all its magic. That is no small feat and certainly not something a mere mortal would be able to do, let alone someone like Caudicus. Yes Xera had a lot of bloodstone shards and it made her very strong but we are talking about a full on bloodstone that was created to store a races magic that had countless lives and souls fed to it also.

Whatever Lazarus is was very powerful to begin with and I think there’s big clues in the story. Caudicus called him a false god, Canach describes him as deceptive, tactical and powerful and the player questions who would want all the power from a bloodstone and an army to unquestionably follow.

My bet is on it being a god, we don’t know which but signs point to possibly Balthazar but there’s no reason yet to think the human god’s are back. Doubt it would be a Norn Spirit and Charr have no god’s, neither do Sylvari. I guess it could be Abaddon….again or possibly Dhuum.

Either way we are progressing nicely to the expansion that is on its way, I’d expect maybe another couple of living story episodes before a big reveal of the next XPac and they will be interesting.

apharma.3741:

1. It seems doubtful ANet would intentionally put a story step you cannot avoid to do a double bluff of making you doubt it’s Lazarus then reveal it really is him. I say this as most beings in Tyria won’t trust Lazarus at all anyway so it accomplishes very little having a false accusation going on as many have already outright said they don’t trust him to his face.

Unless it becomes plot-relevant in some other fashion – such as Lazarus wanting to retrieve the final aspect.

What if Lazurus is not really Lazurus but its Zinn. If it is an imposter Zinn is the only person who could pull it off.

Warlord.9074:

What if Lazurus is not really Lazurus but its Zinn. If it is an imposter Zinn is the only person who could pull it off.

Howard Zinn? The historian and playwriter? Him? What an odd suggestion.

draxynnic.3719:

apharma.3741:

1. It seems doubtful ANet would intentionally put a story step you cannot avoid to do a double bluff of making you doubt it’s Lazarus then reveal it really is him. I say this as most beings in Tyria won’t trust Lazarus at all anyway so it accomplishes very little having a false accusation going on as many have already outright said they don’t trust him to his face.

Unless it becomes plot-relevant in some other fashion – such as Lazarus wanting to retrieve the final aspect.

Possible but again why would ANet go to the lengths of explicitly saying and putting out an unavoidable mention of Lazarus not being able to be revived without the final aspect?

Narratively it doesn’t make any sense to say he can’t be revived then have him go on a hunt to get the last aspect and us try to stop him. I guess ANet could have a plot twist where they have us hunt it down out of irony or something as we should have mursaat.

That’s without mentioning the extremely obvious other question posed by a situation where he’s revived without the final aspect. If he could have been revived without the final aspect, why didn’t the white mantle do so? They wouldn’t exactly care about blowing up a bloodstone, especially when they did it anyway, so it’s not like anything was stopping them going to those fanatical lengths.

As far as we know he absorbed the bloodstone after being revived not the opposite and indeed the wing 3 end of raid casts doubt on whether or not he was revived.

Amaimon.7823:

Warlord.9074:

What if Lazurus is not really Lazurus but its Zinn. If it is an imposter Zinn is the only person who could pull it off.

Howard Zinn? The historian and playwriter? Him? What an odd suggestion.

I don’t see how it could be Zinn. He was all the way out in Rata Novus, along with a bunch of other asura who all disappeared one day, either becoming chak food or… something worse. Honestly, if we’re throwing suspicion onto asura, I think we have a closer bet with Oola, who was doing necromantic experimentation and thus could still be alive. Then again, we’ve met her ghost and she seems happy to stick to protecting her lab, so I don’t think it’s her, either. Of course, I could be confusing Oola for another asura who specialized in necromancy, but whoever it was had data on it, and if they used the data to first prolong their life and then somehow intercept the resurrection ritual to take on a mursaat form…

Honestly, I have no clue what’s going on with the Lazarus we have met. I don’t know if Calden will find an aspect in the object sent to Caudecus or not. And I really don’t know what happened with the two rituals trying to bring Lazarus back. Whoever he is, though, has to be powerful enough to slaughter dozens of White Mantle in a single gesture and have some motive to pose as a mursaat if he isn’t truly one. Let’s hope we get some answers in April (or May, if SAB derails the projected release date) and learn more about this suspicious ally.

apharma.3741:

Possible but again why would ANet go to the lengths of explicitly saying and putting out an unavoidable mention of Lazarus not being able to be revived without the final aspect?

Narratively it doesn’t make any sense to say he can’t be revived then have him go on a hunt to get the last aspect and us try to stop him. I guess ANet could have a plot twist where they have us hunt it down out of irony or something as we should have mursaat.

This plot is heavily focused on bridging GW1 lore to GW2 lore. It’s a plot catering to GW1 vets through and through.

So I would say it does make narrative sense. We’re first presented with the notion that he can, but then that things have changed and this time he cannot.

We also have the bipolar attitude of Justiciar Bauer to consider.

This is all an intentional layer-upon-layer of creating uncertainties while presenting a certainty at the front (“he cannot revive”).

apharma.3741:

If he could have been revived without the final aspect, why didn’t the white mantle do so?

Not quite sure about this question. Are you asking why they didn’t try reviving him once they got access to a single aspect?

Given the Stasis Chamber, they simply didn’t have the means as it required bloodstone shards when they did (attempt to) revive him. This means they had to mine into the bloodstone which wasn’t so until after 1325 AE, which was after Xera had found the first aspect relic and was MIA looking for others.

Further, they no doubt wanted as a group to wait for their High Inquisitor who was out looking for the relics.

Maybe they wanted to find all five relics, then remove the “twisted aspect” so that when revived they don’t accidentally do the same thing Naveed intentionally did.

And maybe, they simply did not know that Lazarus could be revived without all the aspects. Caudecus doesn’t have to be the only one ignorant of Lazarus’ capabilities shown in GW1.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And maybe, they simply did not know that Lazarus could be revived without all the aspects. Caudecus doesn’t have to be the only one ignorant of Lazarus’ capabilities shown in GW1.

This is my thinking in a nutshell.

People have a tendency to assume that what an NPC says is true, but ArenaNet have stated a few times that they use the ‘unreliable narrator’ principle with everything that’s said in the game world. Just because Caudecus and the White Mantle believe that all the pieces are needed does not mean that all the pieces are needed, just that they believed that to be the case.

Whatever happens, it’s likely that the missing piece will be a plot point at some stage… but I don’t think it’s necessarily going to be that “Lazarus” is a fake.