Guild Wars 2

Given the recent revelation that raw magic is a combination of different forms of magic and that Elder Dragons can absorb the loose magic from other dead Elder Dragons, here are my questions:

1. Does the absorbed magic give dragons a new sphere of influence? Mordremoth’s sphere was Plant and Mind. Does Primordus absorbing Mordremoth’s energy mean that Primordus now holds influence over the sphere of Plant and Mind (or at least one of them) ?

2. Does the fact that Mordremoth and Zhaitan who had two known spheres of influence point to the existence of other Elder Dragons whose magic they had absorbed at some time in the past? That is, was Mordremoth’s ability to influence mind absorbed from some former Elder Dragon of the Mind? Does the same go for Zhaitan?

1. Specifically, Primordus didn’t absorb all of Mordremoth and Zhaitan magic, so I doubt he has new spheres of influence. After all, as we saw in Ember Bay, it still needs to create destroyers first and just later imbue them with these new magics. There are no risen belonging to Primordus (nor there were under Mordremoth’s control, and he absorbed some of Zhaitan’s power).

2. Well, I’d say it’s not impossible. In theory it could happen like with the human gods, much like Grenth overthrew Dhuum and Kormir overthrew Abaddon (and Abaddon overthrew its predecessor).

The monstrosities created by resurrecting people in the Mordrem pods are pointed by Taimi as Mordremoth versions of the Risen. So yes, the surviving dragons do gain “powers” from the energy released by the dead ones.

We haven’t seen Primordus reanimating anyone, YET. But we know his destroyers now have plant and dead powers attached…

IMO, primordus will surely began to try mind-controlling stuff like Mordy had, and we’ll see burning risen too.

My bet is that the mind sphere of influence probably went to Jormag since it makes more sense. The way Jormag operates is by luring people by promises of power. It becomes easier for Jormag to sway people if it also holds influence over the mind.

I don’t think we will see burning Risen any more than we will see burning Mordrem. Pre-existing minions will not be subject to this new distribution of magic. Primordus won’t reanimate anyone either. My guess is that each existing Elder Dragon has taken on only one sphere of influence from a dead Elder Dragon. So if we are seeing vine and death touched Destroyers, then that leaves two unclaimed spheres of influence, namely, the mind and shadow spheres. As I mentioned earlier, it is very likely that Jormag has taken over the mind sphere and perhaps the shadow sphere but it is equally also possible that the shadow sphere has been taken over by one of the remaining Elder Dragons or even Aurene.

If we assume the process of acquiring a Dragon’s “sphere of influence” is similar to how Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s powers, than the spheres of influence of Zhaitan and Mordremoth are lost: there was no Kormir to completely absorb their magics at the moment they died and their “powers” spread throughtout all of Tyria.

What we were told to not let happen with Abaddon happened in Tyria with the Elder Dragons. I personally think that, as of now, there’s no entity with any of Zhaitan’s or Mordremoth’s “spheres of influence”, those magics spread evenly throughout Tyria.

As I said earlier, this is why Primordus still needs to create destroyers first (supposedly fire magic is under its sphere of influence) and just later, having now access to some of Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s old magics, can he imbue “new” magics within them; I doubt it could create risen of its own.

In addition, that’s why Glint was with Destiny’s Edge in the first place while fighting Kralkatorrik: if the Elder Dragon had died, Glint would have been able to absorb its powers.

@Vesuvius.9874:

1. Unknown, but doubtful. Keep in mind that Primordus didn’t absorb all the magic, just a huge concentration of it. Furthermore, we never see any Mind or Shadow in the new destroyers (well, I suppose the Death-Touched Destroeyrs could be argued to have some Shadow) so if Primordus did get “new spheres of influence” then it’d likely just be plant and death (maybe shadow).

But keep in mind that Aurene and the Maguuma Bloodstone (therefore Lazarus) got a good deal of Mordremoth’s magic too.

2. Every Elder Dragon has two spheres of influence, and there’s no indication that the spheres are innately linked to an Elder Dragon from the beginning – there was no doubt a time when there were no Elder Dragons, but all the spheres of magic were around. We also don’t know if there are only 12 spheres, as there could be more that the Elder Dragons are not so fully attuned to.

Ardid.7203:

The monstrosities created by resurrecting people in the Mordrem pods are pointed by Taimi as Mordremoth versions of the Risen. So yes, the surviving dragons do gain “powers” from the energy released by the dead ones.

Gain powers, but not necessarily the “sphere of influence”.

That said, while Taimi makes that claim, there’s little if any of the same outcome that Primordus’ and Zhaitan’s use of death magic in any mordrem. So while Taimi may make that conclusion, I wouldn’t call her right.

Both Primordus and Zhaitan’s use of the death sphere of influence resulted in rotting and decayed minions – whether they were of flesh or of stone. There was no rotting mordrem with the potential exception of trolls (which were stated by Scott McGough in forum posts to be a case of plant matter slowly replacing flesh – not too dissimilar to the icebrood then, which have no death magic) or the adult mordrem wyverns (which are so few in number to be a good argument for Mordremoth having the death sphere of influence).

The whole blighting pod thing is unlikely too as living beings were put in them just as well as dead beings, and we see similar methodologies in less harmful manners used by the Pale Tree to create the sylvari (though the less harmful manner resulted in less accurate “cloning”).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Vesuvius.9874:
[snip]
The whole blighting pod thing is unlikely too as living beings were put in them just as well as dead beings, and we see similar methodologies in less harmful manners used by the Pale Tree to create the sylvari (though the less harmful manner resulted in less accurate “cloning”).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Blademaster_Diarmid

" Legendary Blademaster Diarmid was a sylvari of the Pact who died when Mordremoth tore the fleet apart. Occam knew her and saw her die. Her corpse was taken and used to create a Commander of the Mordrem Guard. She first appeared as a Mordrem Guard around the Corpse Grove in Verdant Brink, where she attacked the Pact’s Ordnance Corps Outpost, only to be reborn again from her pod in the Central Blighting Tower."

Mordremoth got the gift of rebirth from Mordremoth, but not all of death magic. He kills people to reanimate them, but uses plant matter rather than tissue.

Had Zojja/Logan stayed in the towers longer they would have died. The one that is saved second is considerably sicker, but has clones. Were they to have died I presume their clones would use actually use their abilities rather than just inherit their will. That is what was critical. With true rebirth Mordrem could use magic that Mordremoth cannot, similar to risen spellcasters.

Konig’s point, though, is that we’ve got circumstantial evidence that the Pale Tree used human bodies (and possibly village dogs) as templates for the sylvari (and the fern hounds).

That said, the sylvari aren’t exact clones like Mordremoth was able to make in HoT. It’s possible that, while Mordremoth could always copy creatures for future minions through the Blighting Pods, without Zhaitan’s death they might just have been generic copies without the knowledge of the original: it’s the combination of Mordremoth’s blighting pods and Zhaitan’s death magic that allowed the production of exact clones that retained the learned skills and abilities of the original.

So, to use Zojja as an example… without death magic, Mordremoth might have been able to make clones of Zojja, but they would simply have been physical copies without magical abilities beyond what Mordremoth granted them through the hive mind. With death magic, Mordremoth could have made exact copies with Zojja’s powerful magic and knowledge of golems and technomagical devices.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Mordremoth got the gift of rebirth from Mordremoth, but not all of death magic. He kills people to reanimate them, but uses plant matter rather than tissue.

He doesn’t reanimate, though. He duplicates.

That’s a major difference.

And he duplicates both living and dead.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Had Zojja/Logan stayed in the towers longer they would have died. The one that is saved second is considerably sicker, but has clones. Were they to have died I presume their clones would use actually use their abilities rather than just inherit their will. That is what was critical. With true rebirth Mordrem could use magic that Mordremoth cannot, similar to risen spellcasters.

There’s no reason to believe they would have died. Yes, they’re unconscious that doesn’t make them “considerably sicker” really nor closer to dying.

Furthermore, in Episode 1, Taimi states that the Blighting Pods have preservative fluids, implying that the pods’ purpose is to keep the victims alive.

Mordrem using magic that Mordremoth cannot has no relation to death magic. Powerful Icebrood use magic that is unique to them, as do certain branded, though the majority of them uses ice/mind and crystal/lightning/fire respectively, just as the majority of risen uses death/shadow magic and most mordrem use plant magic.

@konig
She said preservative not preservation. This may a game but the writers are using English. Whereas preservation can refer to several things, preservative(noun) refers to a substance preventing decay/decomposition/degradation. And given that formaldehyde is a preservative I don’t understand your reasoning.

As I see it.

• The second person rescued is worse off than the first.
• Preservatives in our world are toxic to the living.
• Sylvari are not duplicates of humans. If they were they would have genitals that worked. The duplicate ability is new.
• Destroyer/Mordrem are clones, Icebrood/Branded/Risen corrupt the organism itself. Comparing the minions of one group to the other is a non sequitur. Unless you know of Destroyers who use the magic of the races they copy.
• the pale tree was on a graveyard. I can draw a pig just by looking at rotting corpses/skeleton. But to accurately map the inside I would need to dissect a pig. And that requires some sort of preservative or cold to keep the tissue from rotting during the long process. Blight pods could easily be magical jars of formaldehyde.
• The necro has gotten good at animating and not all minions degenerate health as they use too. Moreover necromancers have the ability to stop people from bleeding out. Therefore necros clearly have some sort of ability to prevent tissue from decaying further.

At this point it doesn’t matter if things are reborn using plant matter, or just duplicated. The result is the same, and Mordremoth requires Zhaitan magic to do it.

When using “preservative” as an adjective, as Taimi does, the meaning is “acting to preserve something” – this can indeed mean to prevent decay and decomposition, just as it can mean to keep something from expiring in a more general sense. When applied to the living, this means preventing death – such as preserving a person in a coma.

Science fiction’s cryogenic freezing is a preservative for living beings, for example.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• Sylvari are not duplicates of humans. If they were they would have genitals that worked. The duplicate ability is new.
• Destroyer/Mordrem are clones, Icebrood/Branded/Risen corrupt the organism itself. Comparing the minions of one group to the other is a non sequitur. Unless you know of Destroyers who use the magic of the races they copy.

You kind of contradict yourself with these two. After all, mordrem and destroyers don’t have genitals – let alone genitals that work. So they could not be clones (read: duplicates) of what they’re copying.

Infertility is an innate part of being dragon minions. I’m not really sure what that has to do with sylvari being duplicates of humans or not. I mean, they’re more of a duplicate than any mordrem out there, that’s for sure.

The second point rather proves my point, however. You said that the ability for “clones” to use the original’s magic is because of death magic… but you outright agree that non-risen (read: non-death magic) can do the same.

As an aside: destroyers are not clones. Primordus does not take bodies (living or dead) as templates. He sees something then creates an off-hand mockery of them. They’re intended as mockeries, that’s the wording we got from Jeff Grubb, whereas Mordremoth is going after clones.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• the pale tree was on a graveyard. I can draw a pig just by looking at rotting corpses/skeleton. But to accurately map the inside I would need to dissect a pig. And that requires some sort of preservative or cold to keep the tissue from rotting during the long process. Blight pods could easily be magical jars of formaldehyde.

You say this as if the mordrem copies are perfectly matching the original on the inside. There is nothing to indicate this.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• The necro has gotten good at animating and not all minions degenerate health as they use too. Moreover necromancers have the ability to stop people from bleeding out. Therefore necros clearly have some sort of ability to prevent tissue from decaying further.

Minions not degenerating health is more mechanical than lore. And you say the rest as if other individuals don’t have the ability to preserve things.

Like, I don’t know, the preserving magical waters of the Maguuma Jungle that the mordrem are very clearly siphoning from?

Daniel Handler.4816:

At this point it doesn’t matter if things are reborn using plant matter, or just duplicated. The result is the same, and Mordremoth requires Zhaitan magic to do it.

The thing is that nothing but Taimi’s theory – which she ends with “I think” – indicates this.

You list the “proof” and “reasons” for it, but those things can easily be attributed to other things that the mordrem are actually going after and interacting with, or had done before having Zhaitan’s magic.

I agree non-death magic can do the same. But the other dragons aren’t dead. Only one of the direct corruptors was dead at the time.

And my reasons were attempts at confirming what drax has said

… without death magic, Mordremoth might have been able to make clones of Zojja, but they would simply have been physical copies without magical abilities beyond what Mordremoth granted them through the hive mind. With death magic, Mordremoth could have made exact copies with Zojja’s powerful magic and knowledge of golems and technomagical devices.

because at the time it made more sense than your arguments.

However in trying to formulate a better response I found out that I am most definitely wrong.Not by your argument. But by my own discovery that no Mordrem in the game have ever used an ability that does not fall into mind or plant magic.

If Zhaitain can revive spellcasters and have them use their magic, but Mordremoth cannot. Then Mordremoth did not get that ability from Zhaitan.

tldr; You were right, I should have checked the lore first. What do you think Zhaitan gave to Mordremoth.

I don’t think Zhaitan gave anything to Mordremoth. There’s no solid examples of death or shadow in large numbers for any mordrem.

Taimi makes it pretty clear that her “conclusion” with the Blighting Trees is just a theory made hastily based on Primordus taking in some death and plant magic.

Who’s to say that all of Zhaitan’s magic didn’t get taken by Tequatl, the bloodstones, and Primordus before it could even reach Mordremoth?

Of course, we’re not even sure how or why Primordus can take in plant and death magic now when there was no death magic in any other dragon minion prior, and, most importantly, without knowing why or how the Elder Dragons cannot/do not simply “hijack” another Elder Dragon’s sphere of influence if they can usurp them after the Elder Dragon dies.

That is to say: why didn’t Primordus try to take death, crystal, and plant before Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth even woke up as they were last to wake and there were 100+ years between Primordus and Zhaitan alone (and 200+ between Primordus and both Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth)?

Same for the DSD.

Backtracking to Primordus being able to create Risen- even if he COULD, would he want to? He’s been doing things his way for 10,000+ years I see him more likely to enhance his own minions instead of figuring out Zhaitan’s way. It seems effortless but maybe creating minions is a skill of theirs that’s been honed over thousands of years. Plus Zhaitan had all the bodies of Orr. Up until the recent there wasn’t anyone on the Ring of Fire islands

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Of course, we’re not even sure how or why Primordus can take in plant and death magic now when there was no death magic in any other dragon minion prior, and, most importantly, without knowing why or how the Elder Dragons cannot/do not simply “hijack” another Elder Dragon’s sphere of influence if they can usurp them after the Elder Dragon dies.

That is to say: why didn’t Primordus try to take death, crystal, and plant before Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth even woke up as they were last to wake and there were 100+ years between Primordus and Zhaitan alone (and 200+ between Primordus and both Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth)?

Same for the DSD.

I think the answer has to lie in the domains that are within The All. They must somehow reflect why and how only certain dragons hold certain magics and with the deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth the scales have been tipped. I firmly believe that the goal will someday be to reestablish those domains with new masters (Aurene, The Pale Tree, etc…) so as to bring balance back to Tyria. Obviously this must be done before another Dragon does, because I don’t know that Tyria could handle another dragon’s death.