Guild Wars 2

So anyone done this yet? I have absolutely no intention of ever playing the raid unless they nerf it to dungeon-level difficulty sometime in the distant future, but I’d very much like to see what kind of lore it contains.

I don’t think anyone has. There’s yet to be a “world’s first” post on reddit, at least.

I’ve gone into it, brought the Vale Guardian down to 20%, but that’s all. And thus far, there’s no more lore – that I spotted – than during BWE2.

The achievements, for once, don’t give much away in terms of spoilers either. Just stuff that was already given in the promotions – the boss names, and how we have to outrun a murderous horde (hoard? I can never recall which is which!) of ghosts.

Gorseval seems to be the final boss, with Sabetha being the secondary boss best I can tell from the map layout and achievements. So my guess is that killing Sabetha leads to a chain reaction creating Gorseval – which we know from Guild Chat episodes to be a construct of souls, and we know from the achievements that he tries to consume more souls. But as far as I know, that’s all anyone knows due to simply not beating it yet.

Give it another day, I’m sure there will be a world first post soon.

Off-topic: Actually DnT made a World’s First post… And got quite some backlash for it. It’s been deleted too afaik.
Ofc it’s arguable how legitimate you consider their ’world’s first’ kill.

Do we have any info who is this Sabetha and where did she come from?

She is one of the white mantle bandits, as far as we know.

To be honests, I don`t expect too much lore here, simply because ANet likes to cater to a broader audience with their product and if crucial parts were hidden behind the elite content, then it would cut off too many people, who would like to enjoy the story.

I expect a throw away adventure, with some neat little references, which don`t go too deep, or in a bad scenario, will go against established lore.

Jaken.6801:

I expect a throw away adventure, with some neat little references, which don`t go too deep, or in a bad scenario, will go against established lore.

I wouldn’t be so sure. A raid video released by Arena Net suggested there would be huge, mega reveals in the raid story being told. It was also said to bridge the gap between Heart of Thorns and the next big thing. Bobby confirmed the mega reveal part here:

BobbyStein.2315:

I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way.

It could be marketing speak, but it could also be Arena Net making yet another mistake past MMOs have already learned.

SirMoogie.9263:

Jaken.6801:

I expect a throw away adventure, with some neat little references, which don`t go too deep, or in a bad scenario, will go against established lore.

I wouldn’t be so sure. A raid video released by Arena Net suggested there would be huge, mega reveals in the raid story being told. It was also said to bridge the gap between Heart of Thorns and the next big thing. Bobby confirmed the mega reveal part here:

BobbyStein.2315:

I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way.

It could be marketing speak, but it could also be Arena Net making yet another mistake past MMOs have already learned.

A mistake that can easily be fixed by introducing an NPC later who can recap the story to those who don’t want to play this kind of content.

Tom Gore.4035:

A mistake that can easily be fixed by introducing an NPC later who can recap the story to those who don’t want to play this kind of content.

That would certainly cheapen the budget and cheapen the experience for those of us who like role playing their character through these stories in this role playing game. For me, it isn’t enough to get the Living Season 1 recap treatment for important story content. I’d rather they just add a story version of the raid with reduced rewards. Most MMOs do this for their story driven raid content and it’s surprising Arena Net hasn’t followed suit…. unless of course there is no story to be had here.

SirMoogie.9263:

Jaken.6801:

I expect a throw away adventure, with some neat little references, which don`t go too deep, or in a bad scenario, will go against established lore.

I wouldn’t be so sure. A raid video released by Arena Net suggested there would be huge, mega reveals in the raid story being told. It was also said to bridge the gap between Heart of Thorns and the next big thing. Bobby confirmed the mega reveal part here:

BobbyStein.2315:

I can’t talk about the “huge awesome mega reveals” other than to say that since the wings are essentially a multi-part story you will learn things along the way.

It could be marketing speak, but it could also be Arena Net making yet another mistake past MMOs have already learned.

They also said the Nightmare Court would have a big role in HoT and there’d be elite spec lore. I’m not taking anything they say at face value.

Jaken.6801:

To be honests, I don`t expect too much lore here, simply because ANet likes to cater to a broader audience with their product and if crucial parts were hidden behind the elite content, then it would cut off too many people, who would like to enjoy the story.

They did this throughout GW1 – remember Sorrow’s Furnace, Underworld (Dhuum!?), Fissure of Woe (Menzies!), Tomb of the Primeval Kings (lead in to Nightfall), The Deep (source of Oni and Outcasts), Domain of Anguish (source of titans, source of torment demons, oldest Margonite, Mallyx!), even Slavers’ Exile.

Why would they stop now?

Some of the most loved GW1 lore actually comes from elite areas.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jaken.6801:

To be honests, I don`t expect too much lore here, simply because ANet likes to cater to a broader audience with their product and if crucial parts were hidden behind the elite content, then it would cut off too many people, who would like to enjoy the story.

They did this throughout GW1 – remember Sorrow’s Furnace, Underworld (Dhuum!?), Fissure of Woe (Menzies!), Tomb of the Primeval Kings (lead in to Nightfall), The Deep (source of Oni and Outcasts), Domain of Anguish (source of titans, source of torment demons, oldest Margonite, Mallyx!), even Slavers’ Exile.

Why would they stop now?

Some of the most loved GW1 lore actually comes from elite areas.

Sure, but it is GW2 we are speaking now.
Things changed.
I am just cautious.

Icdan Sevaen.4628:

Off-topic: Actually DnT made a World’s First post… And got quite some backlash for it. It’s been deleted too afaik.
Ofc it’s arguable how legitimate you consider their ’world’s first’ kill.

Seeing as how DnT was responsible for testing the raids I’m not surprised.

Tom Gore.4035:

A mistake that can easily be fixed by introducing an NPC later who can recap the story to those who don’t want to play this kind of content.

Like the S1 recap.

SirMoogie.9263:

That would certainly cheapen the budget and cheapen the experience for those of us who like role playing their character through these stories in this role playing game. For me, it isn’t enough to get the Living Season 1 recap treatment for important story content. I’d rather they just add a story version of the raid with reduced rewards. Most MMOs do this for their story driven raid content and it’s surprising Arena Net hasn’t followed suit…. unless of course there is no story to be had here.

Raids are hardcore content. I’d rather ANet not spend time and effort on making a story mode but rather focus on new content.

Daralii.8940:

They also said the Nightmare Court would have a big role in HoT and there’d be elite spec lore. I’m not taking anything they say at face value.

Do you have a source for that? I mean did they specifically say ‘big role’ or is that a community addition?
With the communication being so few and infrequent there isn’t much room for clarification, so players might assume things.

CureForLiving.5360:

Do you have a source for that? I mean did they specifically say ‘big role’ or is that a community addition?
With the communication being so few and infrequent there isn’t much room for clarification, so players might assume things.

“Leah also said that the Mordrem Guard and the Nightmare Court are separate factions, and joining up with Mordremoth isn’t necessarily in line with the court’s ideals. She hinted that players can look forward to seeing this explored in the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns storyline.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-mordrem-guard-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

Only mention I see. However, that “explored” turns out to be three NPCs, two of which are in one story instance and the third is in one place in Dragon’s Stand.

Not much ‘exploration’ there to be honest.

CureForLiving.5360:

Raids are hardcore content. I’d rather ANet not spend time and effort on making a story mode but rather focus on new content.

The raid wing in this game is hardcore content at the moment, but that could change, hence the request. I would rather Arena Net develop a system that doesn’t repeat the mistakes of MMOs whose stories I followed, but quickly became locked out of. Those MMOs have now switched it so that there are difficulty levels, but I’m well past interested in them now. If Arena Net gets it right now, they have the framework to build upon it in the future content, rather than bleeding customers who actually care about experiencing the story, but can’t. Again, presuming there is story to be had here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CureForLiving.5360:

Do you have a source for that? I mean did they specifically say ‘big role’ or is that a community addition?
With the communication being so few and infrequent there isn’t much room for clarification, so players might assume things.

“Leah also said that the Mordrem Guard and the Nightmare Court are separate factions, and joining up with Mordremoth isn’t necessarily in line with the court’s ideals. She hinted that players can look forward to seeing this explored in the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns storyline.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-mordrem-guard-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

Only mention I see. However, that “explored” turns out to be three NPCs, two of which are in one story instance and the third is in one place in Dragon’s Stand.

Not much ‘exploration’ there to be honest.

I couldn’t agree more. You run into one Nightmare Court prisoner and then when you run into the second, the character starts aggressively demanding to know why Mordremoth is taking so many Nightmare Court prisoners. If that’s a thing the designers wanted to communicate it really should have been done better in the game.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CureForLiving.5360:

Do you have a source for that? I mean did they specifically say ‘big role’ or is that a community addition?
With the communication being so few and infrequent there isn’t much room for clarification, so players might assume things.

“Leah also said that the Mordrem Guard and the Nightmare Court are separate factions, and joining up with Mordremoth isn’t necessarily in line with the court’s ideals. She hinted that players can look forward to seeing this explored in the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns storyline.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-mordrem-guard-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

Only mention I see. However, that “explored” turns out to be three NPCs, two of which are in one story instance and the third is in one place in Dragon’s Stand.

Not much ‘exploration’ there to be honest.

Ok so it was a community addition, this idea of a ‘big role’ then. GW2 community loves doing that it seems.
But yes it seems explore is a bit of a stretch.

Obviously Spoilers: Deroir did a small video recap of the first raid wing’s lore, plus some of his own speculation what the information given could hint at.

Why didn’t Anet make a storymode for these raids?

Because they wanted to only deliver it as challenging content. Story mode for the raids would just be treated the same as story mode for the dungeons – a precursor to the ‘explorable mode’ that is always ignored by everyone.

Mostly because good luck getting five people with the rewards. If the story modes had rewards relative to their difficulty (usually, but not always, less than the explorables) they would have been less ignored. Instead, you get a rare headpiece that probably isn’t appropriate to your level when you get it…

If there’d been a ‘story mode’ for the raids, with lower rewards but on a higher level than ‘have a rare headpiece’, I reckon it’d be done – as somewhat less unrewarding practice for the real thing if nothing else!

isn`t that why you can explore the whole thing freely after beating it?
on that note, can`t someone who has beaten it, other who hasn`t and thus allows them to get the hidden story snippets?
The things, we get after the whole fighting.

Well that is interesting.

No one mentioned character specific dialog so far, so it might be something that will happen in later parts of the raid (correct me if I am wrong, because that way you will get us to search the place even more).

In that regard I am pretty excited and hope that it will pay of nicely.
On another note… please let the plot be mostly contained, with not too many loose ends.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Obviously Spoilers: Deroir did a small video recap of the first raid wing’s lore, plus some of his own speculation what the information given could hint at.

So it seems that a bunch of Souls can just combine and become an Elder Dragon of Souls is what this guy is implying.

I would assume that Zhaitan was the result of combining a bunch of Bone Dragons together and we all know that the members of that species of Dragon are all Necromancers explaining the power of Death and Darkness.

With the White Mantle’s experiments the possibility that an Elder Dragon of Souls can come into existence has gone higher(how high I do not know considering we don’t even know how far the experiment has gone and whether it is intended to create a Elder Dragon slave for Lazarus the Dire or to empower him).

Mickey Frogeater.1470

So it seems that a bunch of Souls can just combine and become an Elder Dragon of Souls is what this guy is implying.

Probably (definitely) not an Elder Dragon of Souls. It’s most likely either a Titan or something similar in nature to them. What with it being an amalgamation of tortured/crazed souls.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Obviously Spoilers: Deroir did a small video recap of the first raid wing’s lore, plus some of his own speculation what the information given could hint at.

So it seems that a bunch of Souls can just combine and become an Elder Dragon of Souls is what this guy is implying.

I would assume that Zhaitan was the result of combining a bunch of Bone Dragons together and we all know that the members of that species of Dragon are all Necromancers explaining the power of Death and Darkness.

With the White Mantle’s experiments the possibility that an Elder Dragon of Souls can come into existence has gone higher(how high I do not know considering we don’t even know how far the experiment has gone and whether it is intended to create a Elder Dragon slave for Lazarus the Dire or to empower him).

I don’t think Gorseval was the intended result of the WM’s experiments, he was more of a byproduct caused by the magic released at Mordremoth’s death. So in that regard I don’t think they are trying to create their own ED.
And while I also think the EDs are more akin to elementals than normal fantasy dragons, in the regard that they are basically a sentient amalgamation of a certain type of magic, I’m not sure if you can just easily fuse souls together until you have an ED. Like Erukk said, you’ll probably get some kind of titan first or whatever Gorseval is. But maybe if you give it a few millenia of continous soul absorption and you might get an ED of Souls eventually.

Going off of the dialogue, Gorseval predates Mordremoth’s death and possibly awakening. Mordremoth’s death is said to have made ‘all magical beings’ which includes the ghosts and Gorseval go hyperactive.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Going off of the dialogue, Gorseval predates Mordremoth’s death and possibly awakening. Mordremoth’s death is said to have made ‘all magical beings’ which includes the ghosts and Gorseval go hyperactive.

A interesting to take notice of as the story progress with each Elder Dragon’s death. As each one dies more magic is returned into Tyria and with it the awakening of powerful ancient magical creatures that has remained dormant for centuries such as Gorseval.

Not to mention back in Season 2 we learned that the Elder Dragons are part of the World’s function/cycle but what would happen if we remove the Elder Dragon’s from that cycle. I think we are getting a glimps to what will happen to the GW world as we kill each Elder Dragon from Spirit Vale

I wouldn’t think of Gorseval as ancient. It’s just a bunch of the spirits haunting the place melding together, and hints are that the current bandit presence had a hand in their death- them, or whoever’s living behind that wall. Seeing as we know that community wasn’t there in Prophecies, probably even Nightfall, that puts Gorseval’s age at about 252 years at the absolute oldest, and likely much younger.

(I’d even dispute that Gorseval necessarily predates Mordremoth’s death. Of the dialogue I’ve seen, the only thing that refers directly to it are a couple of the bandit journals, which have nothing fixing their chronology. They do mention that the windstorm riled the ghosts up, though, and that becoming something like Gorseval is a reaction to feeling threatened. Putting those two together, it’d make sense to me that they’d be more apt to fuse after the storm than before. That’d leave Gorseval either not existing before that, or at least becoming much larger afterwards.)

Gorseval does seem to be a bit of a “naturally-occurring” titan, with many similar properties – formed from a collective of spirits that creates a body out of what is most abundant in the surrounding environment. The lore of the Guild Wars 1 titans was that they were created by torturing spirits until they formed into an amalgamation that becomes a titan – in the case of Gorseval, it seems to be a response on the part of the spirits out of a perceived threat and desire for vengeance (although they’ve forgotten just what it is they desired vengeance for). So what seems to be happening is that such beings can form when a large number of spirits in an area are under stress within a highly magical environment: Abaddon and his minions used the Foundry of Failed Creations to achieve this artificially in the Realm of Torment under conditions that created Titans that were loyal to Abaddon while, apparently, being weaker than what can be achieved through spontaneous creation*. Gorseval, on the other hand, appears to have pretty much been made by accident… or, at least, the bandits didn’t know that this would be a potential result. Those behind them may well have…

The difference in strength could be that Abaddon was looking to create an army, and therefore probably only wanted to invest a finite number of souls into each titan to achieve a balance between quality and quantity. Gorseval, on the other hand, is probably just sucking every soul in the area into itself, along with some of the magic released by Mordremoth’s death.

EdwinLi.1284:

A interesting to take notice of as the story progress with each Elder Dragon’s death. As each one dies more magic is returned into Tyria and with it the awakening of powerful ancient magical creatures that has remained dormant for centuries such as Gorseval.

Not to mention back in Season 2 we learned that the Elder Dragons are part of the World’s function/cycle but what would happen if we remove the Elder Dragon’s from that cycle. I think we are getting a glimps to what will happen to the GW world as we kill each Elder Dragon from Spirit Vale

Gorseval doesn’t seem to be ancient – given the lore we know, I’d say it’s no older than 250 years.

I don’t think Gorseval is at all tied to the Elder Dragons dying – just that the ghosts got riled up from a high magical increase.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’d even dispute that Gorseval necessarily predates Mordremoth’s death. Of the dialogue I’ve seen, the only thing that refers directly to it are a couple of the bandit journals, which have nothing fixing their chronology. They do mention that the windstorm riled the ghosts up, though, and that becoming something like Gorseval is a reaction to feeling threatened. Putting those two together, it’d make sense to me that they’d be more apt to fuse after the storm than before. That’d leave Gorseval either not existing before that, or at least becoming much larger afterwards.

I haven’t done the whole raid (haven’t even killed the Vale Guardian yet tbh), but based on what I saw on the wiki:

One of the journal states “Ever since that windstorm riled up the ghosts, we can’t patrol the jungle floor. It’s infested with those kitten things. Got a hunch they came from inside the compound. I know what they did.”

The “windstorm” refers to the magical release of Mordremoth’s death. This means that the ghosts we have to run from in the raid came from inside the compound after this event, making the area more dangerous. No doubt this is what you’re thinking makes Gorseval formed after Mordremoth. However…

“I can hear them at night. They sometimes talk like everything is normal. Then they start acting crazy–confused.”

“They attack anything that walks through those woods. Good thing they don’t remember the truth, otherwise our little tree fort would be a pile of sticks by now.”

“I’ve never seen spirits do what these do. When threatened, they merge together to form a stronger entity. Put enough of them together, and you get that abomination outside the graveyard.”

“Sabetha sent their leader for questioning. Hasn’t decided what to do with the rest. We should either put them to work or watch them get eaten by Gorseval. I could use some entertainment.”

Mordremoth’s death was very recent. This line implies that Gorseval has been around long enough not only for the bandits to study, and know how the spirits act, but to find entertainment in feeding prisoners to them. In other words: they know what Gorseval does to its victims.

Furthermore, “Gorseval’s Perch” is definitely ancient. The gravestones there date back as far as 1079 AE. That’s when the White Mantle fled into the Maguuma Jungle.

draxynnic.3719:

although they’ve forgotten just what it is they desired vengeance for.

Not so much what for, but who against.

draxynnic.3719:

Gorseval, on the other hand, appears to have pretty much been made by accident… or, at least, the bandits didn’t know that this would be a potential result. Those behind them may well have…

In one of the Guild Chats, the artist behind Gorseval made a slip stating that its made of souls released when “spoilers” broke. Given the date on the gravestone, my bet is either the answer is “soul batteries” or, less likely, “bloodstone”.

We know from said gravestones that this place has been around since at least 1079 AE. We know from Olias’ quest that the White Mantle continued sacrifices even in 1075 AE, well after the purpose for them had ceased. In the raid there’s the giant wall with commentary about how there are screams and chanting on the other side – said other side being to the west: Bloodstone Fen.

Furthermore, we know from Jacob Salinger that souls trapped in the soul batteries are “changed” – those that we let loose attacked us, but left mursaat alone.

My theory is that the initial spirits that made up Gorseval were the souls killed during GW1 and placed in soul batteries that never made it to the Ring of Fire. They got loose and over the centuries, like you said, added more to them, growing in power and numbers.

I’m not so sure that we’re that close to Mordremoth’s death in the raid. One of the journals note “The pylons have been imbued with energy ever since the windstorm.” Those would have to be the pylons that generate the vale guardians, unless you argue they’re referring to something from a future wing. Another entry, though, says “Sabetha thinks there might be a search party coming for the prisoners. I don’t think they’ll make it past the guardians. No one has.”

That would suggest enough time has passed since Mordremoth’s death, and the subsequent formation of the vale guardians, to allow multiple incursions to have been fended off, enough that the bandits are confident in them as a defense. If that’s the case, is it a stretch to believe they’ve also had time to examine and reach basic conclusions about another entity that may be post-Mordremoth?

As for the PoI name, there’s no shortage of places in the game that have more recent names for old ruins. Even ignoring, for instance, most of Orr, Lost Precipice certainly wouldn’t be called such during its habitation by its original builders. Given those ruins seem not to have been continuously occupied (the dates on the graves make a huge jump from 1079 straight to 1328), I’d not be surprised if bandits referred to the place by the great monster lurking there instead of bothering to dig up what it originally was named. Ditto with the Pact Commander, newly arrived in the area and in the midst of an urgent rescue mission.

Being imbued with energy since the windstorm does NOT mean that the pylons had been active only since the windstorm.

It just means that they got a power boost since then. One of the Pact Soldiers’ corpse is beneath a tree, suggested to have happened during a storm. If that storm is the same one caused by Mordremoth’s death, then it would mean the Pact were in the area before Mordremoth’s death – which makes perfect sense, in all honesty – and were facing those defenses before Mordremoth’s death.

I never talked about Gorseval being old because of the name Gorseval’s Perch, but because the graves which make up Gorseval are ancient.

I don’t think the soul batteries were left without a purpose so much as the purpose changed. It’s strongly implied that souls harvested are also used for powering ether seals and Jade constructs, both of which were used by the mursaat as late as the War in Kryta, the latter in large numbers. So I suspect that with no need to continue holding the Door closed, the surviving mursaat used all the harvested souls in order to improve their military position.

Regarding the age of Gorseval: I’m inclined to agree with Aaron here. The graves may be old, but if the spirits were only recently released, Gorseval could still have formed fairly recently. My gut feeling from reading the journals is that the order of events goes something like:

1) Mordremoth dies.

2) “Windstorm” riles up the ghosts.

3) Ghosts come together to form “that abomination outside the graveyard” (Gorseval, I presume)

4) PCs arrive.