Guild Wars 2

Walhalla.5473:

Someone in his Position? May I ask who was in the same Position?

Pretty much a nobody. Killed in a raid in a WM hideout.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confessor_Esthel

Even the Inquisitor(s) we fight after were a bigger threat:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veteran_Inquisitor_Mirella
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inquisitor_Torbon

Doomdesire.9365:

Kryta Arc might not happen or be wrapped up a lot sooner than anticipated. Caduceus comes off as incompetent; I seriously doubt his faction will last long or even pose a threat to Kryta, and Lazarus doesn’t seem interested in the throne. On one hand I’m excited to see how the Lazarus and Primordus story converges, but at the same time I was kind of hoping to take a break from dragons and focus on some Kryta stuff – that entire region is just fantastically done. Also, I really wanted Lake Doric, seems like it won’t happen.

Also wonder if that last line spoken by Taimi pretty much confirms where the next xpac is going to be.

I don’t think Caudecus is incompetent so much as he’s been underminded while he was under house arrest for literally four years.

With the Shining Blade breathing down his neck, there’s only so much information that he could receive from his men.

Shiren.9532:

I’m not a fan of the resignation from the Pact or Dragon’s Watch as a thing. It all feels very contrived and out of sync with the history of our story so far. The Pact functions fine, we can function within it as a group without forming a guild. I don’t think they’ve demonstrated to me or Tyria that there is a need for guild like DE anymore. The resignation from the Pact seems silly on another level because nothing has changed from Season 1 – we still work with them, they likely still follow our lead and we still work on our own.

The resignation was because he was next-in-line for command, but everyone was wanting to put the Commander behind a desk filing paperwork all day.

That is VASTLY different from Season 1 where we weren’t constrained at all by the Pact.

And very easily shows in short order why our PC couldn’t be the Marshal during the personal story. Too much paper work for our adventuring selves – it would make no sense.

Dragon’s Watch I still dislike, as well as disbanding Destiny’s Edge and the continued distrust of Caithe – given she didn’t act that out of the ordinary.

Shiren.9532:

Almorra’s offer was basically constructed solely to create context for why we obviously wouldn’t take it.

But it is also a context that makes perfect sense and is realistic.

Shiren.9532:

I am baffled as to why Eir gets an entire drawn out funeral while Trahearne got nothing. Not only was Trahearne a bigger player overall, he headed the Pact and his death was as a sacrificial hero while Eir’s was just tragic.

Yeah, kind of agree. Why no Trahearne funeral or some mass funeral for all the fallen Pact members?

Reason is probably that they didn’t want to spend too much time on funerals.

Shiren.9532:

People won’t see it because it’s portrayed as Taimi vs Phlunt but it’s really Taimi vs the best interests of all of Tyria.

I’d say it is closer to Phlunt vs the best interests of all of Tyria.

The thing is that Taimi also has the best interests for all of Tyria, while Phlunt just wants the accolades and Taimi knows if anyone else gets into the dragon lab the knowledge would be censored – just like the Arcane Council did with Gorr’s work – hog it all or simply claim all the credit of it.

If you think that Taimi is the villain here, you need to (re)play the asura chapter 3 personal story.

Mada.5319:

Why the hell were we able to SEE Lazarus?

None of our characters or NPCs have ascended.

Mursaat can chose whether or not to be invisible. And he was, then chose not to be.

Simple as that. We knew this even in GW1, particularly during Saul’s Story in the Bonus Mission Pack.

I still prefer just keeping the Destiny’s Edge name personally.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Shiren.9532:

Almorra’s offer was basically constructed solely to create context for why we obviously wouldn’t take it.

But it is also a context that makes perfect sense and is realistic.

It doesn’t make sense when the person you offer it to not only rejects the offer but also formally leaves the Pact. The offer in itself is comes with strings attached which undermine your authority as the new leader, which is also an issue.

Even had we accepted the offer (which would position us poorly for future story and I fully support an NPC becoming marshal over the player) our first act as the new leader of the Pact is being told what to do by our subordinates and being forced to do something we don’t want to do. At that point your authority as leader is compromised.

Keep in mind the person making this offer is leader of the Vigil and she herself immediately proceeds to fly us to a dangerous magical disruption, doing what she advised we not do if we became leader of the Pact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Shiren.9532:

I am baffled as to why Eir gets an entire drawn out funeral while Trahearne got nothing. Not only was Trahearne a bigger player overall, he headed the Pact and his death was as a sacrificial hero while Eir’s was just tragic.

Yeah, kind of agree. Why no Trahearne funeral or some mass funeral for all the fallen Pact members?

Reason is probably that they didn’t want to spend too much time on funerals.

I think the reason is they don’t want to spend too much time on the Pact. So much was left unresolved by HoT – the state of the Pact, the fallout with the sylvari, the celebration of victory and the recovery from their losses. They instead chose to focus on the personal drama of Eir, Rytlock and Braham. The Pact is out, Dragon’s Watch is in – Eir’s funeral over Trahearnes is just a consequence of this (not new) story focus.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Shiren.9532:

People won’t see it because it’s portrayed as Taimi vs Phlunt but it’s really Taimi vs the best interests of all of Tyria.

I’d say it is closer to Phlunt vs the best interests of all of Tyria.

The thing is that Taimi also has the best interests for all of Tyria, while Phlunt just wants the accolades and Taimi knows if anyone else gets into the dragon lab the knowledge would be censored – just like the Arcane Council did with Gorr’s work – hog it all or simply claim all the credit of it.

If you think that Taimi is the villain here, you need to (re)play the asura chapter 3 personal story.

The information should be available to all of our allies – the Priory, the Pact, other asura. Did you see only humans scouring Orr for magical artifacts or solutions to the Zhaitan threat? We had charr, asura, norn, quaggan, sylvari, tengu and many other races all over Orr (a former human kingdom) researching and working together to stop Zhaitain (we only know Mordremoth’s name because the tablet containing information about Elder Dragons was recovered and shared by the Pact). Like I said, when it’s portrayed as Taimi vs Phlunt (or asuran beaurocracy and KGB/secret police/Arcane Eye) people won’t see what it really is – Taimi vs Priory scholars that could potentially use that information to make asuran children safer, human villages in Kessex that could develop early warnings of Destroyer attacks using Rata Novus research. Priory members with specialised knowledge Taimi doesn’t have could have puzzle pieces necessary for solving some of the problems (some of the data the Pact has could fill in the gaps the Rata Novians didn’t). She’s not just hiding it from Phlunt and corrupt asura, she’s hiding it from everyone – including the Pact who risked their lives fighting dragons and sharing knowledge, even between the three Orders. The Arcane Eye aren’t as powerful if the Pact is their opposition.

Taimi’s interest is in her personal accolades as much as Phlunt (the only difference is Taimi deserves them while Phlunt is trying to take credit for her research), otherwise she would share the lab with Pact, Priory and other asura. Her ego and immaturity cloud her own judgement (last time we were in this territory she prioritized credit for invention over her own safety and had us chasing her into the desert to stop her and her invention from falling into Inquest hands while we should have been dealing with Mordremoth). If her interest at the time was to benefit all of Tyria she wouldn’t care who got credit for her invention, only that a stable ley line network would help people escape from a life threatening attack or help reinforcements travel to the front lines. Even if she had everyone’s interests in mind, she’s going about it the wrong way.

Shiren.9532:

It doesn’t make sense when the person you offer it to not only rejects the offer but also formally leaves the Pact. The offer in itself is comes with strings attached which undermine your authority as the new leader, which is also an issue.

Even had we accepted the offer (which would position us poorly for future story and I fully support an NPC becoming marshal over the player) our first act as the new leader of the Pact is being told what to do by our subordinates and being forced to do something we don’t want to do. At that point your authority as leader is compromised.

Keep in mind the person making this offer is leader of the Vigil and she herself immediately proceeds to fly us to a dangerous magical disruption, doing what she advised we not do if we became leader of the Pact.

1. The offer coming with strings is the exact reason why the PC refused – and I’m pretty sure Almorra worded in such a way as to ensure that the PC would refuse, because she no doubt agrees that the Commander is best in the field.
2. It isn’t the subordinates that demanded the new Marshal be doing paperwork. It’s the Pact’s suppliers and supporters – the national and order leaders. Almorra, Gixx, and the Master of Whispers do not answer to the Pact, nor does the Arcane Council, Smodur, Knut, Pale Tree, or Queen Jennah. It is the people in these and similar positions that made the demand of paperwork position – and if they didn’t get their demand they would have pulled their support to the Pact, leaving it permanently crippled. This is what “politics” does to things.
3. Almora didn’t expect to be going into hostile airspace – she was just dropping off someone in a semi-secured jungle that had no anti-air capabilities. The explosion caught everyone off guard and afterwards her ship is in repair. She also isn’t the leader of a major multi-national organization. Plus, given her tone and wording, I don’t think she’s in agreement with the forced proposition for the next Marshal – even if she herself is used to such a position.

Shiren.9532:

I think the reason is they don’t want to spend too much time on the Pact. So much was left unresolved by HoT – the state of the Pact, the fallout with the sylvari, the celebration of victory and the recovery from their losses. They instead chose to focus on the personal drama of Eir, Rytlock and Braham. The Pact is out, Dragon’s Watch is in – Eir’s funeral over Trahearnes is just a consequence of this (not new) story focus.

I don’t think that’s it at all. Yes, we didn’t really talk much about the Pact, but that might be more because they wanted to get right to the crux of the plot.

Mind you, I think the episode was way too short for 9 months wait and leaving us waiting for 2 more months for anything more.

Shiren.9532:

The information should be available to all of our allies – the Priory, the Pact, other asura. Did you see only humans scouring Orr for magical artifacts or solutions to the Zhaitan threat? We had charr, asura, norn, quaggan, sylvari, tengu and many other races all over Orr (a former human kingdom) researching and working together to stop Zhaitain (we only know Mordremoth’s name because the tablet containing information about Elder Dragons was recovered and shared by the Pact).

Did you see ANYONE from Kryta there at all? No? Me neither.

Those in Rata Novus DO NOT WORK FOR THE PACT. They DO NOT WORK FOR THE PRIORY. They work for the Arcane Council.

And the Arcane Council have a known history of withholding critical information from the Priory and other races.

Taimi, on the other hand, immediately tells the world’s most finest dragon slayer of her substantial findings. For all we know, she also sent information to other known and trustworthy associates that wouldn’t try to undermine her position and censor data like Phlunt would (who is literally right outside her door).

Shiren.9532:

Like I said, when it’s portrayed as Taimi vs Phlunt (or asuran beaurocracy and KGB/secret police/Arcane Eye) people won’t see what it really is – Taimi vs Priory scholars

Because it isn’t Taimi vs Priory scholars.

Taimi outright tells trusted individuals – Caithe, the Commander, Rytlock known among them – about information she finds.

Phlunt would not. He’d tell Flax, and Flax would have it censored so that only the asura can benefit from it. Exactly what was done in the past.

And no one would know this because everyone who would know the information is in Flax’s proverbial pocket.

The thing you’re forgetting is that the Arcane Council is who would get the information if Taimi didn’t keep the lab separate, not the Priory, not the Order of Whispers, not the Pact.

And the Arcane Council doesn’t share with anyone.

Shiren.9532:

She’s not just hiding it from Phlunt and corrupt asura, she’s hiding it from everyone – including the Pact who risked their lives fighting dragons and sharing knowledge, even between the three Orders.

I didn’t know that the Commander, who is still a member of one of the orders at the very least, who slew two Elder Dragons counts as no one. I didn’t know Caithe and Rytlock, members of the (now defunct) Destiny’s Edge count as no one.

Shiren.9532:

The Arcane Eye aren’t as powerful if the Pact is their opposition.

Really? Because they succeeded in fooling the Order of Whispers, Vigil, and Durmand Priory for an unknown amount of years.

Who’s to say they couldn’t fool those very same people again?

Shiren.9532:

Taimi’s interest is in her personal accolades as much as Phlunt (the only difference is Taimi deserves them while Phlunt is trying to take credit for her research), otherwise she would share the lab with Pact, Priory and other asura.

While she is interest in her accolades, she’s also got other interests.

If you were right, then Taimi would never have said her final line at the end of the episode. She would never have called the Commander to her lab in the first place. She would not have showed the chak organ or talked about how it functioned.

Everything she does completely counters your argument.

It’s a minor matter, but some interesting timeline notes- everything here is pulled directly from the three journals you compile for the sentient anomaly. Note that the journals do have their own oddities- like the apprentice forecasting the bloodstone would explode ‘in a matter of days’ close to a year before it did. Still, there was nothing directly contradictory in them, and I’m willing to work with the dates.

Zhaitan’s death- ‘just days’ before 60 Zephyr, 1326. This would indicate the events of the original Personal Story weren’t fully contained in 1325, and that either early S1 wasn’t held retroactively to the calendar synchronization, or that it overlapped the Personal Story.

Heart of Thorns- From the Pact’s Fleet’s disaster to Mordremoth’s death, we’re looking at 30-74 Zephyr, 1328. That sets the span of the story at 44 days. (Side note- it may be that the final date wasn’t the time of Mordremoth’s death, but just the first time any of the three had bothered to write about the results. Without the same definite markers that the previous entries had, absolute certainty is unattainable. It is worth acknowledging the possibility.)

Forsaken Thicket- 13 Zephyr, 1329. The date is only attached to the events of Salvation Pass, in particular, but the journals speak of the entire raid as a single event, so that, coupled with the next point, is sufficient reason to believe the gaps between the wings were minimal. Also, it’s now official that we’re in 1329.

Season 3- By 17 Zephyr, 1329, the last date in the books, the events of Stronghold of the Faithful had occurred and the orders that inadvertently resulted in the Bloodstone’s detonation had been issued. We can safely assume that we’re very close to that date now, and that the calendar synchronization has been definitely abandoned for this season.

So that leaves us in an interesting place- perhaps as little as a week after the events of the raid, but close to a year after Mordremoth’s death. The latter bears the more unexpected implications, but it’s late enough to be early here, so I’ll leave those to you for now.

There’s a slight oddity in those dates, truth be told, that lead me to think the first draft left us still in 1328 AE.

Kasandra’s entry for 83 Zephyr 1328 mentions that after Mordremoth’s death the cracks in the Bloodstone accelerated, turning her predicted cataclysmic disaster from being away in “a matter of months” into “a matter of days”. Would be more accurate to be “a matter of years” to “a matter of months” given what actually happened. Unless the 1329 entries were meant to be Scion or Colossus 1328 as no entry takes place then. Still would have been months instead of days, but would be less of a margin of error.

Yet it didn’t rupture until nearly a full year later (13 Zephyr 1329) that she bothered to take it to Bauer, who was in charge at the Bloodstone.

About the raid on the timeline, I don’t read that as being a single assault but still just close together – Valis’ journal mentions Matthias’ death in 13 Zephyr 1329 then mentions the stronghold’s fall in 17 Zephyr – where he then heads underground to help with the ritual.

I think this means that the third raid wing happens only days before the explosion, and that said explosion is either 17 or 18 Zephyr.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Yet it didn’t rupture until nearly a full year later (13 Zephyr 1329) that she bothered to take it to Bauer, who was in charge at the Bloodstone.

I think the Problem is Bauer himself. Bauer was prone to Execute People for not showing Progress, or who just annoy him. And he didn’t just execute them. He killed them on Top of a Bloodstone and the Effects aren’t pleasent for dead People. If he just executed them, I think that she would have told him earlier, but since Bauer likes to kill People on Bloodstones its something you consider twice even if you don’t value your Life.

Also interesting from the Notes. The Mantle wasn’t that unified. Caudecus wnted the Krytan Throne and didn’t care for Lazarus but quite a few White Mantles set the Resurrection of Lazarus as their highest Priority, including the High Inquisitor and since Caudecus was in Custody, he couldn’t really know that quite a few Members of the Mantle were working behind his Back. After Lazarus showed himself we saw a real Split in the Mantle. Cudecus just cares about the Throne, but Lazarus doesn’t care about Politics and has different Goals. Some chose to follow their God other chose for Caudecus. This can be really interesting.

Another interesting Fact is that our Character now is able to collect Magic from the Surrounding and even drain Magic from Bloodstones ( Ok due to Counter Magic but still ) and these Air Skills look like that due to harvesting Magic for ourself we now can shoot Magic Beams, use unstable Magic Bombs call in healing Magic Storms etc. It could be just Gameplay but this could also be integrated into the Story quite nicely.

Walhalla.5473:

Another interesting Fact is that our Character now is able to collect Magic from the Surrounding and even drain Magic from Bloodstones ( Ok due to Counter Magic but still ) and these Air Skills look like that due to harvesting Magic for ourself we now can shoot Magic Beams, use unstable Magic Bombs call in healing Magic Storms etc. It could be just Gameplay but this could also be integrated into the Story quite nicely.

Getting some Brütal Legend flashback here, let’s call in Roady Riggs…

Anyway, for this Episode:

The story feels a bit rushed. I can’t put my finger on it, but after the nice and slow start, it all tumbles down, axing plot points one after the other.

Caudecus being the bad was obvious. Him being soo much involved and so oblivious is kinda sad to see, since we appearently should just forget that he is a puppetmaster and conecentrate on him being an powerhungry idiot who bit off more than he should.

New areas are awesome.

How did Taimi defend herself against Chakk? She said she wasn’t able to get defense mechanisms going. She couldn’t install them. She limps around. Wields no weapons.
HOW DID SHE FIGHT CHAKKS?
There is a broken Golem, she could have created some device, but why do we have to go on pest control, against several Chakk and she just stood back? Conserving energy?

The speech for Eir was a bit too short. I would have liked a bit more personal stuff in it. Overall the whole szene was very sweet, though i didn’t know our character was so good at handling ice with a pickaxe…

Why do we have to clear puzzle, if Taimi is perfectly capable to do so? I saw her laughing at meand it was supposed to be her messing with us, but for me she starts to get more and more annoying in a negative way. It was charming at first, now I want her to get her Asura head back to earth…
The puzzle could be a perfect optional thing to do and then the szene wouldn’t be so annoying for me.

I wish we could talk to our team more. We just get the normal dialog and I wish we could get from simple textbubbles from the others…

Belindas sword glows, which indicates that it is special? (her ghost is in it, but did it glow before? Even without any skills)

Garm is a filthy dog (he has a special condition = filthy)

Did Almora always sound like that? Oh btw. nice to have some Charr on Charr growling between her and Rytlock.

Did expect the para troopers gliding in to help us at the end, after a flare from Canach.

Overall good episode. a bit bumpy, but pretty good.

Extra : More outfits? Awww…

Jaken.6801:

Why do we have to clear puzzle, if Taimi is perfectly capable to do so? I saw her laughing at meand it was supposed to be her messing with us, but for me she starts to get more and more annoying in a negative way. It was charming at first, now I want her to get her Asura head back to earth…
The puzzle could be a perfect optional thing to do and then the szene wouldn’t be so annoying for me.

The puzzle is optional though, there are even achievements both for doing and skipping the puzzle.

Yes, you can decide to not do it, but Taimi urges you to do it, giving you the expression that is the way to go.
She then stands there and giggles, even though this supposed to be a situation where we should make haste.

It is kinda backwards in my opinion and just giving us an option to do the puzzle, than it being presented as the solution.

I honestly have no idea what your problem is. You complain that the puzzle isn’t optional and then you concede it is optional and suddenly the problem is that there is an option to do the puzzle? Or is the problem that the second option is fighting a security drone? In that case it goes down to gameplay, why do the puzzle at all if you can just order Taimi to do it. That would be nonsense, the second option had to have a “challenge”.
Also Taimi is still a child, of course she will giggle when she has the oppurtunity to test our wits. And there isn’t really a reason to make haste. Yes she wants to show us her results, but it’s not like the lab will explode in 2 minutes. So let her have her fun, she hasn’t seen us in a quite a while.
I liked that part, it blended gameplay with a character moment.

It kinda felt weird for me.
Yes it is technicly optional.
Yes it is a good character moment, showing off her mischievious side.

However a few seconds before, she scolded us for being loud, wanted to keep everything on the low key.
Then she pulls the joke on us.

If i remember right she tells us to crack that puzzle. We have to do it. The PC even asks if that is a joke, but Taimi just rolls with it.

On one hand it does certainly plays into her character, but given the situation it felt out of place.
It was set up as something that you had to be careful around and it had no pay off.

The result in not doing the puzzle is that three big golems come down and attack, attracting others, who would investigate.

It’s things like that, that make me question her ability to stay alive sometimes. It isn’t the first time, where she did something that could potentially backfire. I just wait for the day, where the plot armor isn’t pulling her neck out.
The bile and Chakk she is working with? A mutation bound to happen.

Could be just the frustration speaking, but Taimi is always taking things too far for my liking and as someone who is supposed to be “the brains” of the group.
I see her ending up as someone who puts you in a dangerous situation and says afterwards: “what? You didn’t die and I heard scars do have a certain appeal to the other sex…”
Well, no one ever said that she was big on the empathic side…

Jaken.6801:

The story feels a bit rushed. I can’t put my finger on it, but after the nice and slow start, it all tumbles down, axing plot points one after the other.

I didn’t get the “rushed” feeling at all.

The tumbling down is a critical point of the plot to me showing that our victory over Mordremoth was but the calm before another storm – which fits with what we were getting from the Current Events and raid.

As for “axing plot points one after the other” – that felt more like wrapping up some of HoT’s leftovers, which is good not to have dangling. Since this is no longer HoT.

Jaken.6801:

Him being soo much involved and so oblivious is kinda sad to see, since we appearently should just forget that he is a puppetmaster and conecentrate on him being an powerhungry idiot who bit off more than he should.

You need to remember that Caudecus was under house arrest for four years, under constant scrutiny of the Shining Blade – his mortal enemies.

Even a puppetmaster would not be able to do much then. And when who should be his followers were acting behind his back half the continent away, when he gets there yeah he’s going to be kittened, he’s going to be agitated, he’s going to be annoyed. And this makes even smart, calm, collected individuals lose their grip and make mistakes.

To me, Caudecus’ actions made him more human to me.

Even more so since his actions showed that he was not a true believer of the White Mantle but instead was just using them – even managing to become their leader all the while. How can someone who is not a puppetmaster and evil mastermind do that?

Jaken.6801:

How did Taimi defend herself against Chakk? She said she wasn’t able to get defense mechanisms going. She couldn’t install them. She limps around. Wields no weapons.
HOW DID SHE FIGHT CHAKKS?
There is a broken Golem, she could have created some device, but why do we have to go on pest control, against several Chakk and she just stood back? Conserving energy?

Unless I misread and misheard, Taimi said she couldn’t ask for help installing defenses.

That does not mean she couldn’t install defenses. She very obviously installed several to keep the 50+ asura standing right outside the door with a dragon head on it from wondering what is inside or trying to open the door.

Jaken.6801:

The speech for Eir was a bit too short. I would have liked a bit more personal stuff in it. Overall the whole szene was very sweet, though i didn’t know our character was so good at handling ice with a pickaxe…

The speech I felt was appropriate, but I was on my charr. For norn, it would be appropriate to be longer since norn knew her longer and are more norn-y, but for non-norn what I heard was perfect IMO.

Why?

1. They’re not norn. They don’t know what norn do and do like as well as norn do. And what a human/sylvari/asura/charr may say to praise a norn, other norn may find insulting. Even if it wasn’t insulting to Eir.
2. They didn’t know Eir too long – literally meeting Eir for three times before taking down Zhaitan, and about double since then.

The pickaxe thing was funny to me. Would have preferred the animation used for carving pumpkins but at least I got humor.

Jaken.6801:

I wish we could talk to our team more. We just get the normal dialog and I wish we could get from simple textbubbles from the others…

Agreed. This was something HoT failed with too.

Jaken.6801:

Belindas sword glows, which indicates that it is special? (her ghost is in it, but did it glow before? Even without any skills)

It glowed since Belinda’s ghost went into it.

Jaken.6801:

Garm is a filthy dog (he has a special condition = filthy)

He’s caked in blood and dirt! What do you expect.

We clean him off though. Or rather, you could if you wanted to.

Jaken.6801:

It kinda felt weird for me.
Yes it is technicly optional.
Yes it is a good character moment, showing off her mischievious side.

However a few seconds before, she scolded us for being loud, wanted to keep everything on the low key.
Then she pulls the joke on us.

If i remember right she tells us to crack that puzzle. We have to do it. The PC even asks if that is a joke, but Taimi just rolls with it.

On one hand it does certainly plays into her character, but given the situation it felt out of place.
It was set up as something that you had to be careful around and it had no pay off.

The result in not doing the puzzle is that three big golems come down and attack, attracting others, who would investigate.

And she could pull it off as just a prank on her friends. There’s nothing wrong with the puzzle, and I don’t get why you’re complaining about it being optional yet not being optional.

Well everything is good and all and the Mursaat became a god of sort but the biggest danger is of course Primordius the White Mantle is nothing compared to Primordius nothing he is the strongest dragon there is he is the first to awaken and the best feed among them.
And the commander just gets stronger and stronger with more obscure skills and magic under his belt. One day we will take a dragon 1 vs 1.

Taimis Prank
Yes, she could, but why in a place, where too many eye are watching?
She said, she had to finish the puzzle afterwards, so it is her “password system”, while we finished off the golems.
Was the “don`t attract too much attention” bit before, just set up for the whole “prank”?

If it was in the dragon lab, okay, it would be “safe”, but pulling it somewhere, where it could potentially attract someone unwanted, is kinda recless in my book.

Adding to that the dialog implies we have to finish the puzzle first. It doesn`t say we can ignore it.
It implies that we can`t really continue, without finishing the puzzle
Ignoring it is only presented as an option for us to choose from, but with no back-up from the dialog before.

We were told: Finish the puzzle, to proceed. Nothing more.

The only reason I decided to not complete the puzzle, was out of curiosity and a bug I experienced. I hoped the game let`s me proceed, without finishing. Something that wasn`t implied before.

Again. It is something minor, which just rubbed me the wrong way.

Taimis Defense
It`s just weird that she didn`t use it to support us. She didn`t even mentioned that she wanted to conserve energy, to not attract more Chakk and we should do it instead. So, as long as we don`t see the defenses, I see it as a plothole and will continue to ask the question: “How did she fight Chakk?”

Caudecus
Housearrest with a Portal in the backyard. I don`t believe he was that much out of the loop. However it is a valid argument.
My problem is more along the fact, that he was appearently high ranking, controling a lot of the white mantle, but ended up not knowing about these plans?
While I get secrecy, I would have liked him seperate from the WM, but still using them.
However, that might still be something that will be revealed. That he bought his rank and thought he was in charge.

Rushed
Okay, more of a pacing issue in retrospect. Maybe I would have wished for some extra steps in between. Everything just came to us too easy (not saying that it is over). Things were a bit too convinient and “easy” to reach.
The only thing that slowed me down were the damage sponges and the forced Mastery.
Speaking of mastery. Here, learn some ancient magic…
The whole exploration part was mostly to get familiar with the area and get cought up in the WM stuff.
Like i said, kinda hard to put my finger on it, to be honest.

Just t be clear, I don`t want to argue for argue sake. Might just be my personal problems.

The speech
Didn`t the commander held a norn speech at one point of the PS? I believe he was a bit more norny there. Could be mistaken, though.
We also have times, that we don`t witnessed. So there could have been more than three meetings.
Overall It was no real critizism, just a wish from me.

Jaken.6801:

Was the “don`t attract too much attention” bit before, just set up for the whole “prank”?

Think of it this way:

If nothing happened, no one would be suspicious.

If something happened, Rata Novus golems go haywire and attack all the time – it happened at the very beginning of the instance – and could be played off as that, should some bystandard find and try to hack the password system.

Either way, logically speaking, no one actually would suspect it. Because ancient attacking golems seem to be a bi-daily occurrence there based off of the very beginning.

Jaken.6801:

Adding to that the dialog implies we have to finish the puzzle first. It doesn`t say we can ignore it.

Technically it does have to be done. It’s just that if we don’t do it, Taimi does.

Jaken.6801:

We were told: Finish the puzzle, to proceed. Nothing more.

That’s why it’s called a bonus objective. You might remember those things, they were very common in 90s games. They were rarely ever mentioned in actual objective lists, and when they were they were only hinted at, never explicit.

Unlike modern games where your hand is held every fraction of a step along the way.

This is nothing new nor special nor is it even looked down upon. ArenaNet did this every release even.

Remember Recalibrating the Waypoints in Season 2? Taimi told you to use her device on the miniature waypoints – but there’s an achievement for just wacking it with your normal skills, and she yells at you (and Braham). This is the EXACT same thing. It’s a hidden, bonus objective.

Jaken.6801:

It`s just weird that she didn`t use it to support us. She didn`t even mentioned that she wanted to conserve energy, to not attract more Chakk and we should do it instead. So, as long as we don`t see the defenses, I see it as a plothole and will continue to ask the question: “How did she fight Chakk?”

Why would she use something that would use ley line energy (as all Novus devices use) – the thing that attracts chak – when she has two strong individuals there to do the very same job without the risk of attracting more chak?

Jaken.6801:

Caudecus
Housearrest with a Portal in the backyard. I don`t believe he was that much out of the loop. However it is a valid argument.

Two things.

1) He was under house arrest in the palace. You may want to replay Caudecus’s Manor story mode, as this is when that arrest happens.
2) There is no portal in the backyard.

Jaken.6801:

My problem is more along the fact, that he was appearently high ranking, controling a lot of the white mantle, but ended up not knowing about these plans?

If you were my boss, and I did stuff on the side without telling you, while you were across the country under known surveillance from the police, would you know about the stuff I did on the side?

No? Why would Caudecus?

Jaken.6801:

While I get secrecy, I would have liked him seperate from the WM, but still using them.
However, that might still be something that will be revealed. That he bought his rank and thought he was in charge.

I don’t think he bought his rank, but rather that he joined with no faith and intended to use the order while being within it.

Which in a way does make him separate from the White Mantle – which is why there is a schism happening between the two.

Jaken.6801:

Rushed
Okay, more of a pacing issue in retrospect. Maybe I would have wished for some extra steps in between. Everything just came to us too easy (not saying that it is over).

It’s less that it was rushed or had bad pacing. It’s that there wasn’t much content to it.

They nailed the quality. But failed the quantity for us waiting 9 months before, and will be waiting 2 months after.

Typically production has 3 things to cater towards: fast release, quality of product, quantity of product. With S1, Anet hit the first and last (fast and quantity); with S2, they hit none really (borderlined all three); and with S3, they’re only hitting the second (quality).

Jaken.6801:

The speech
Didn`t the commander held a norn speech at one point of the PS? I believe he was a bit more norny there. Could be mistaken, though.

My commander didn’t hold that speech – only those who went with Apatia did, and mine had Tonn.

And IIRC, that speech is a bit shorter one.

I’m sure this as all been said already, but it’s dumb how the Priory knew about Jade Armors, and how convenient it is that miss dues ex machina could asura-tech some anti-spectral agony power from some research notes she found in the trash bin, and how the UNSEEN are now easily seen by everyone and like to make grand entrances. So yeah.

Now about what Lazarus is after? Clearly he’s not here to help kill dragons. Why bother if he can just leave?
I think it’s likely he wants his revenge. Now, you say, against whom? Well the white mantle, the people he swore to get revenge on.

Jaken.6801:

My problem is more along the fact, that he was appearently high ranking, controling a lot of the white mantle, but ended up not knowing about these plans?

He did know, is the thing. He was mislead about how many resources were being allocated to it, sure, but the justiciar’s journal does say “Knowing the confessor’s priorities, I emphasized the potential weaponization of the bloodstone’s power and mentioned Operation Rebirth as only a secondary objective.”

I think he just didn’t expect it to succeed. And why should he? It took them four years to make any kind of weapon, and even that was just powering up a few jade armors seemingly by accident. The idea that the same team could restore an almost-dead god must’ve seemed laughable.

. That he bought his rank and thought he was in charge.

I don’t think that’s in the cards. Xera was revealed to have a fair deal of sway, but again, the justiciar’s journals- the highest ranking cultist at the Bloodstone- showed a great deal of respect for Caudecus, an unwillingness to make big choices without his approval, even a share of his fervor for retaking Kryta. I think it’s more that there’s a smidgen less religious fervor in the Mantle than there’d used to be. It makes sense- their cult in GW1 was based on having present, active, demonstrably powerful gods, in opposition to those no-show Five/Six/ Since then? Their religion’s been focused on a single, inactive god on the verge of death. A waning of the faith among those privy to that information is the least they could’ve expected.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Those in Rata Novus DO NOT WORK FOR THE PACT. They DO NOT WORK FOR THE PRIORY. They work for the Arcane Council.

This wouldn’t be the case if the Pact and the Priory knew about the dragon research. The area would be secured by Priory, Vigil and Whispers members and the Arcane Council wouldn’t be able to keep it a secret. Sure there is an argument to be made that the Arcane Eye could infiltrate the Pact and sabotage it that way, but that same argument could be made about the members of Dragon’s Watch (including Taimi herself), the Shining Blade or every other sensitive situation.

For all we know, Taimi, the asuran child, is mistaken in thinking she has successfully outwitted the Arcane Eye and they are already watching her every move. Too bad she doesn’t have access to an entire order dedicated to secrets to help her out. I’d also like to point out you listed Caithe as a trustworthy person.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Everything she does completely counters your argument.

I’m not arguing that Taimi is some evil villain working for an Elder Dragon or another Scarlet in the making. I fully realise that Taimi is working with Dragon’s Watch to fight the dragons as well as other threats.

My argument is a simple one. Taimi is the sole investigator of the dragon research lab in Rata Novus. We all benefit by including the Priory and the Pact in the investigation of that research – more resources, more sources of expertise, better distribution of the information and greater capacity to act on it. Obstructing the inclusion of the relevant people is preventing or delaying any benefits of this information.

Secondary to that point, Taimi has a clear history of being immature when it comes to her research and explicitly prioritised her own credit for it over the benefits of sharing it in the past. This is clearly demonstrated by her actions in Dry Top with the waypoint calibration device when she runs off with it after Phlunt tries to take it off of her. Her actions endangered the device, a Commander of the Pact and herself.

We are the protagonists so everything will turn out fine, but without plot armour this is a shady situation and conflicts with the whole idea behind the formation of the Pact (three orders are stronger when they share information and resources together than when they work apart from each other).

narwhalsbend.7059:

I’m sure this as all been said already, but it’s dumb how the Priory knew about Jade Armors, and how convenient it is that miss dues ex machina could asura-tech some anti-spectral agony power from some research notes she found in the trash bin, and how the UNSEEN are now easily seen by everyone and like to make grand entrances. So yeah.

The asura-tech to give us protection from specral agony was actually a clever inclusion of Guild Wars lore. During the War in Kryta (kind of like a Living World arc for Guild Wars) there was an exiled asura named Zinn (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zinn) who was hired by Livia, a member of the Shining Blade and someone who had a history of working both with asura and those with lax morals if it suited her agenda. Zinn had a hidden lab on the Divinity Coast (the same region where Divinity’s Reach is now located iirc) and inside the lab you can see has a seer on what looks like an autopsy table(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Zinn's_lab_interior.jpg). The seers are one of the ancient races that fought the mursaat and the ones who infuse our armour in Prophecies to help us fight the mursaat (the original process involved the body of a slain eidolon iirc).

During the Battle for Lion’s Arch Zinn and his assistant Blimm use the secret weapon they had been working on – an effect called Spectral Infusion (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spectral_Infusion). It replicates the effects of infused armour to protect from the attacks of the mursaat and their jade constructs for a short period of time.

So all of this is a precent that was well constructed and set up in Guild Wars. Now how did Taimi come across it? Well I mentioned earlier that Zinn was banished from Rata Sum (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Trial_of_Zinn) due to the consequences of some of his research and he already had a lab hidden away near the Falls in the Maguuma Jungle (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Secret_Underground_Lair) which is also in the same region as Rata Novus – the city he founded and the same place that Taimi has been working on scouring all their research and data.

So while I generally agree that Taimi and Rata Novus in general is a source of magical plot developments, this particular instance is actually well established and set up by the events of Guild Wars and was a very natural conclusion to come to in Guild Wars 2. It was actually one of those exciting moments for me in this last release – it was so cool to see the GW1 lore used so authentically and naturally to solve this problem.

It was still a bit weird how Taimi trains us how to protect from spectral agony before we ever encounter it and she even knows to investigate it, and I personally prefer mystical solutions like finding another seer and replicating the journey of my GW1 character, but I absolutely loved realising how deep into GW1 lore this particular development was constructed – and only people who payed close attention back then would pick up on it.

In many ways I haven’t commented on yet, this new map is chock full of some exciting GW1 references (White Mantle leaders slain on the bloodstone, fallen Shining Blade ghosts we fought alongside in life). This is just one of many examples they did an excellent job of including.

narwhalsbend.7059:

I’m sure this as all been said already, but it’s dumb how the Priory knew about Jade Armors, and how convenient it is that miss dues ex machina could asura-tech some anti-spectral agony power from some research notes she found in the trash bin, and how the UNSEEN are now easily seen by everyone and like to make grand entrances. So yeah.

It makes perfect sense that the Priory knew.

Durmand, the founder of the Durmand Priory, and his initial scribes were around during the finale of the War in Kryta. They would have documented it – either first hand or second hand.

Taimi doesn’t pull a dues ex machina, she literally took Zinn’s invention that was used during the War in Kryta from the city made by Zinn and gave it to the Commander.

Learn the difference between “pulling from old established lore” and “solving all problems out of nowhere with no explanation or premise”.

As for Lazarus being seen, for the billionth time the past two days:

The mursaat are not permanently stealthed without control – they can chose whether or not to be seen! The thing about Ascension was so that they could not hide from the players – they could reveal themselves to everyone, if they wished, but they cannot hide themselves from those with the Gift of True Sight.

And Lazarus chose to let himself be revealed.

Seriously folks… This isn’t new, and it was never implied or stated, explicitly or otherwise, that they are forever invisible.

If that was the case, ask yourself: How the hell would Saul see them when he randomly stumbled upon their city?

narwhalsbend.7059:

Now about what Lazarus is after? Clearly he’s not here to help kill dragons. Why bother if he can just leave?
I think it’s likely he wants his revenge. Now, you say, against whom? Well the white mantle, the people he swore to get revenge on.

His last words in GW1 (chronologically) were:

“Accursed human! You have done this to me! I will not forget this! Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

His plot is definitely a revenge one. Because not only the above, caused by asura and human causing Lazarus’ power to turn and twist on himself, but Lazarus’ entire race was wiped out (as confirmed in Out of the Shadows).

The question is how he goes about it. He just absorbed a whole bloodstone’s worth of magic – that’s a lot. This practically makes him a demi-god in terms of power in of itself.

My theory:

He’s after godhood in a more literal fashion. I suspect he’ll be trying to pull what we (players) have been expecting we’ll do to Glint’s Egg – turn it into an Elder Dragon replacement. But what will he do with this power? Certainly not be benevolent.

There are ultimately two things I think he’d go after: he will either seek out to destroy all humanity and asurakind (hence the no interest in the throne – why bother when he’ll just destroy it?) – and possibly the charr, norn, and sylvari for Destiny’s Edge and the Pact(?) interfering.

Or he will seek out to pull something akin to what Abaddon tried to do during the war leading to the Exodus. That is, turn Tyria into his own personal kingdom, effectively enslaving everyone through reverence and maybe even gifts of too much (drug-like) magic.

(On an aside, this is an interesting notion for what Abaddon’s gift of magic could have done when he blessed it “too freely” – everyone blessed crazed and killed others for more magic, eventually needing it to live).

Shiren.9532:

This wouldn’t be the case if the Pact and the Priory knew about the dragon research. The area would be secured by Priory, Vigil and Whispers members and the Arcane Council wouldn’t be able to keep it a secret.

Shiren, I’ll just reply to one thing because it seems to debunk your entire argument:

It is outright known that the Order of Whispers – and in turn the Pact – knows about Rata Novus and their hatred of Primordus and researching into them. We know this because of the meta event.

Yet we don’t see a single Order of Whispers, Priory, or Vigil agent in Rata Novus. This means only one thing:

The Pact told Rata Sum asura and delegated the task of uncovering data to them.

Probably a manpower thing. Ultimately a bad decision, but in the end this is the only explanation that makes an incling amount of sense for why Rata Sumians ever found out about Rata Novus – certainly wasn’t Taimi, the Commander, or Destiny’s Edge (I refuse to call them Dragon’s Watch).

With that in mind, can you really say that if the Pact knew about that room, they would not just go “Hey, Sumians, get that data for us first.”?

Taimis Prank
Just adding to Taimi and then I guess thats it for me.
You arguements are all plausible, the thing that bothers me is just that:

If I were in a situation where I don’t want any attention, I do everything to not get that attention.
Even if the chance that someone would notice is about 5%, or lower.

It just feels off for me.

On the other hand, it is Taimi who believes that she has everything under control… maybe that’s why. I am just waiting that things blow up in her face (again).

Defenses
Yeah, power conservation and reducing the posibility of more Chakk would be the obvious reason, but she never said that.

Everything is just possibilities here and I just wish there were more evidence that supports her claim.

It just feels weird for the limping, “weaponless”, child to defeat several (and we can assume the number of Chakk we saw was the norm, as she didn’t mention that the amount was unusual) Chakk.
I wish they would have added something on the visual side. An asura turret or some barriers. Or even a side remark, for the reasons staed before.

Rushed and pacing
I think it has something to do with what information we get. They put a lot of effort into a voiced delivery of key information, that some side infos get lost.
The funeral and Rata Novus was great, but could have been expanded upon easily, with some personality.
The funeral was the best, as we could interact with several side characters and get info, outside of the main plot.
Rata Novus had only the “secret objective”, where we heard other “funny” Asura lines, but we weren’t able to approach them otherwise. Windell was as silent as a sleeping Dolyak for example.
After we enter Bloodstone fen, everything is mostly tailored to get us into the loop on the meaning of the area.
There are some funny voiced lines, but these are pasive experiences, that aren’t faciliated by us.

I dunno, I think I miss talking to my characters, outside the railroad trip from time to time.

We only got bare bone hints of Majories problems during HoT. We can’t follow up on Rytlocks “agenda”, etc…

I think they really put a lot of effort to get everyone up to speed on the whole story arc, but it came at a price.
Something that doesn’t seem so significant, but creates a little off feeling for me.

I think I get what you mean, Jaken- not so much that they were rushing too quick to get to the next thing, but that it really felt like they were rushing to put the HoT story behind them. I ended up with something of the same feeling. Part of it, I think, was an inevitable result of how many loose threads they had to resolve with only a minimum amount of time for each, part of it was how none of the other threads that would’ve required more attention got touched on at all*, and the biggest part was how the three major plot strands going on from HoT- the losses of the Pact, the egg, and the results of Mordremoth’s death- barely got a look in edge-wise this episode, although I do believe they’ll be coming in later. I wouldn’t say it’s a deliberate pacing choice, per se, so much as a return to the problems of narrow scope. When there’s so little for you to do except move forward, you’re going to move much more quickly. I’m worried that this is going to show itself to be a recurring theme of the quality-foremost approach.

*While I did largely enjoy this patch, this second problem was the greatest disappointment. Maybe it shouldn’t have been; we were afraid going in that this would happen. ArenaNet’s long taken the stance of “we don’t want to do it if we can’t do it justice,” and there is some merit to that, but it also stands to reason that something is preferable to nothing. If it were a matter of waiting for the future time they did work in the resources to ‘do justice’, that be one thing, but when it’s a choice between glossing over a major briefly or never touching on that issue at all, that’s different. It’s very hard to see why the story’d ever cycle back around to how Mordremoth, the Dream, and most importantly the Nightmare Court relate to each other (and what about the Soundless! Remember how they were a big deal back before the expansion hit?), and Malyck and his Tree are in the same spot absent some impressive shoehorning. It’s also very clear that the company won’t allocate the resources to ‘do justice’ outside of the main thrusts of their game modes. The start of Season 3 seems to have been their last chance to tackle these issues, but it’s already jumped ahead to us getting swept up in the next big, unrelated thing. It would seem that just leaves raids (because Fractals certainly wouldn’t suffice) and you’ll understand if I’m not too excited about that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jaken.6801:

While I get secrecy, I would have liked him seperate from the WM, but still using them.
However, that might still be something that will be revealed. That he bought his rank and thought he was in charge.

I don’t think he bought his rank, but rather that he joined with no faith and intended to use the order while being within it.

Which in a way does make him separate from the White Mantle – which is why there is a schism happening between the two.

I wonder if he joined the White Mantle relatively recently, rising through their ranks primarily due to his political prominence and noble station. Though it could have happened much earlier, he likely was part of the White Mantle by at least the time of the Order of Whispers story, in which the OoW smuggled his daughter out, with her carrying critical information regarding a treacherous plot. If the OoW knew then the basics of the White Mantle – at least the Caudecaus side of things – then it will be interesting to see how Lady Valette Wi factors into this plot.

He was confessor by 1325 at the very least, which is likely around the time if not before we killed Confessor Estel – curious to me that there’d be two Confessors. He was likely second-in-command at the beginning of the personal story, and rose with us killing the foolish Confessor Estel in the unknown parents storyline.

Looks pretty much that I was right in the discussion we had about Taimis video messages, Konig.^^

*Asura in general are vile and evil creatures that take delight in tormenting others, even their own kind. Those who are not join the orders and take on other professions. For example the female Asura that does the chain of events in Rata Novus in TD arrogantly dismisses every Golem she encounters as old and useless from the start.
*Phlunt is trying to control Taimi and her stuff but is pretty clueless and arrogant, like the rest of the Asura invading the new Rat City who basically work with a portal but don´t know all or even most of the devices the portal uses.
*Canach did not use the portal and basically walked in through the front door.

You can try to justify it but its kind of obvious that Anet writers didn’t plan through the story for 4-5 expansions. Thats why you get such a joke encounter with Estel.

On a side note: what does anyone think of the fact the three Inquisitors have the same names as some of the WiK members from gw1. Could they have tapped into the power of the bloodstone and be the originals or is it simply a case of reusing names to throw a bone to gw1 lore fans.

Well Estel could have also been a decoy like that fake Ras Al Ghul in Batman Beginns.
Honestly the PS White Mantle always seemed pretty weak to me, I like to think that it was just one branch, specifically established to throw the Shining Blade off.

Manimarco Devil.1790:

You can try to justify it but its kind of obvious that Anet writers didn’t plan through the story for 4-5 expansions. Thats why you get such a joke encounter with Estel.

On a side note: what does anyone think of the fact the three Inquisitors have the same names as some of the WiK members from gw1. Could they have tapped into the power of the bloodstone and be the originals or is it simply a case of reusing names to throw a bone to gw1 lore fans.

On Estel: Wouldn’t make sense given they gave her the leading rank and they stated before GW2 released that they had “big plans” for the mursaat.

On the Journal Writers: They’re not all Inquisitors – in fact, none is. One’s an apprentice, one’s a justiciar, and one’s a “Grand Savant”. In GW1, respectively to name they were a justiciar, an Inquisitor, and a… ranger not scholar. So it’s beyond unlikely that they’re the same, unless they got mind wiped and demoted in rank. Most likely Anet just took the names as references to GW1.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

On a side note: what does anyone think of the fact the three Inquisitors have the same names as some of the WiK members from gw1. Could they have tapped into the power of the bloodstone and be the originals or is it simply a case of reusing names to throw a bone to gw1 lore fans.

On the Journal Writers: They’re not all Inquisitors – in fact, none is. One’s an apprentice, one’s a justiciar, and one’s a “Grand Savant”. In GW1, respectively to name they were a justiciar, an Inquisitor, and a… ranger not scholar. So it’s beyond unlikely that they’re the same, unless they got mind wiped and demoted in rank. Most likely Anet just took the names as references to GW1.

That’s pretty much confirmed in Justiciar Bauer’s case- the flavor text for that achievement says he’s the ninth of his name.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jaken.6801:

She wants Primordus.
Rytlock and Glints legacy might take us to Orr
Braham wants Jormags head.
Did I miss someone?
Do we have a Quaggan in the party somewhere, that might want Steve?

Why Orr?

Also, Rytlock wants Kralkatorrik’s head. You missed that.

Jaken.6801:

Mentioning Krakaltorik and Primordus might mean we might tackle both at once, this time.

Still calling a threeway fight with Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus.

They missed that opportunity with Mordremoth since fire > plant. The only feud that would have made the best sense seeing as both were in the Meguumas. A three-way fight would trivialize the whole kitten ED threat but then again, we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth so the the damage is already done. So the whole thing is dumb regardless.

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

When I say Maguumas, I mean both the jungle and the wastes.

It also isn’t confirmed that Primordus is Fire. He could be just heat in general, termodynamic energy and fire is just how is percieved.

Nevertheless, the elements were never said to play a role in how the dragons interact with each other, or that they even have any territorial fights.

Surely fire and ice would be more thematic? If you can even sum up Primordus and Jormag like that anyway.

I suppose it depends on if ANet want the Elder Dragon story to last all of GW2’s life. We still have 4 dragons to go, though I’m pretty sure at a point before we kill the last remaining dragons, the whole ‘balance of magic’ plot point will raise its head and Tyria will have to face that threat first. Kill the dragons, or find an alternative to keep the balance in check?

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

When I say Maguumas, I mean both the jungle and the wastes.

Actually the main transfer chamber was located in the Far Shiverpeaks. That_shaman map show that the overlayed position would be between Frost Gorge Sound and Fireheart Rise.
Since the last 200 years he may have moved (like Kralkatorik) or not (like Zhaitan or Mordremoth).
Being underground gives him a strategical advantage as we already witnessed. Destroyers can strike in north, South and Far Shiverpeaks, close to Rata Sum or in the Blood Legion lands.

But somehow, I think Primordus, while being a threat won’t be the next target. First because Tyria can not afford a new dragon fight with such big loss within the Pact and the Sylvari.
We will fight destroyers in a close future, sure, but I think the main plot, either of the LS3 and/or next expansion will be to find the solution of the excess of energy in the world and to find a way to contain the released magic to be sure that the world won’t explode the next time we fight one of the Elder.

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

When I say Maguumas, I mean both the jungle and the wastes.

My point remains. Nothing says he is in that area.

Last we heard, he was clearing tracks of land all over Tyria – which is why we see destroyers as far west as Brisban Wildlands and as far east as eastern Ascalon (Edge of Destiny).

He slept underneath the border between Frostgorge and Fireheart Rise at the Central Transfer Chamber, but this was hundreds of miles underground. And he’s been moving around since.

Ranael.6423:

Since the last 200 years he may have moved (like Kralkatorik) or not (like Zhaitan or Mordremoth).

We were outright told years ago he’s been moving about and that is why we see destroyers all over the map.

Technically speaking he could be very far away from continental Tyria – though Taimi picking him up tells me he’s not.

Ranael.6423:

But somehow, I think Primordus, while being a threat won’t be the next target. First because Tyria can not afford a new dragon fight with such big loss within the Pact and the Sylvari.

Primordus may not give us the option. If he’s become active, he may strike first forcing us to react even if we don’t have an army to meet him.

But then again, when the Great Destroyer rose, we didn’t have an army of thousands and airships – we had hundreds at best between dwarves, asura, human, and four norn.

Finding a solution to the magic problem may serve as a concurrent plot – after all, just like Mordremoth and the egg, we don’t need to be focusing on only one thing. I think trying to focus on one thing was the biggest downfall of HoT.

Jaken.6801:

It also isn’t confirmed that Primordus is Fire. He could be just heat in general, termodynamic energy and fire is just how is percieved.

Nevertheless, the elements were never said to play a role in how the dragons interact with each other, or that they even have any territorial fights.

Well, he is called the Elder Fire Dragon (as well as the Elder Rock Dragon) much like how Jormag is called the Elder Ice Dragon, Zhaitan the Elder Death Dragon.

JayMack.8295:

Surely fire and ice would be more thematic? If you can even sum up Primordus and Jormag like that anyway.

I suppose it depends on if ANet want the Elder Dragon story to last all of GW2’s life. We still have 4 dragons to go, though I’m pretty sure at a point before we kill the last remaining dragons, the whole ‘balance of magic’ plot point will raise its head and Tyria will have to face that threat first. Kill the dragons, or find an alternative to keep the balance in check?

This makes me think, it would be nice if we end up in the middle of a fight between Jormag and Primordus. Not a direct one mind you, but their minions are fighting each other to the death in one of the possible areas of the next expansion. Would be pretty awesome to end up having to either help one side inadvertently or find a way to screw them both over.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

(On an aside, this is an interesting notion for what Abaddon’s gift of magic could have done when he blessed it “too freely” – everyone blessed crazed and killed others for more magic, eventually needing it to live).

That is an interesting observation. We always had the impression it was more of a metaphorical ‘mad with power’ than a literal one, but it would make a lot of sense if Abaddon had actually ‘gifted’ enough magic to drive the recipients insane…

Shiren.9532:

I am baffled as to why Eir gets an entire drawn out funeral while Trahearne got nothing. Not only was Trahearne a bigger player overall, he headed the Pact and his death was as a sacrificial hero while Eir’s was just tragic. I guess this is the general direction of the story though – away from the bigger players and the big picture and a focus on small character driven drama, which is Eir’s (a personal funeral/wake compared to what would be Trahearne’s likely larger military/political funeral as well as the rest of the Pact).

2 things.

1) Eir was a HUGE character for all of the Norn race. She was basically a legend among legends and is portrayed in that way. There is a reason Eir was the leader of Destiny’s Edge. Eir had a norn-specific funeral. There wasn’t many characters from other races there, you essentially had Rox, Rytlock and the player character (depending on race) who weren’t Norn. It was just a memorial service and worked quite well as a narrative device to progress the story.

2) Sylvari are a very young race, less than 30 years old. I believe it is very safe to say that Sylvari do not have a standard memorial service or way to honour their dead. The only Sylvari to die have basically been from combat deaths. If we figure all sylvari are born at the age of maybe 20 or so, the oldest among them is what, 48 now? Treesus wouldn’t have had a memorial because there’s no way Sylvari honour their dead, to our knowledge. Sure, we could have done another way, but who is to say that’s the correct way? I’m fairly certain Charr, Humans and Asura all have their own way of dealing with death, and we know that Norn do so by Moots and telling of the dead’s Legends.

It would have felt a bit out of place.

It is always possible that there is yet to come a military funeral within the Pact. My guess would be that the organization would want to stabilize a little bit after their losses and have someone set up to be the next Marshall of the Pact. Based off of what we hear, there seems to still be rescue missions ongoing so it might take a little while, but I’m hopeful that we’ll see some sort of memorial, perhaps they’ll force all the Trehearn haters say a bunch of nice about him before we finish the instance!

mexay.3902:

Shiren.9532:

I am baffled as to why Eir gets an entire drawn out funeral while Trahearne got nothing. Not only was Trahearne a bigger player overall, he headed the Pact and his death was as a sacrificial hero while Eir’s was just tragic. I guess this is the general direction of the story though – away from the bigger players and the big picture and a focus on small character driven drama, which is Eir’s (a personal funeral/wake compared to what would be Trahearne’s likely larger military/political funeral as well as the rest of the Pact).

2 things.

1) Eir was a HUGE character for all of the Norn race. She was basically a legend among legends and is portrayed in that way. There is a reason Eir was the leader of Destiny’s Edge. Eir had a norn-specific funeral. There wasn’t many characters from other races there, you essentially had Rox, Rytlock and the player character (depending on race) who weren’t Norn. It was just a memorial service and worked quite well as a narrative device to progress the story.

2) Sylvari are a very young race, less than 30 years old. I believe it is very safe to say that Sylvari do not have a standard memorial service or way to honour their dead. The only Sylvari to die have basically been from combat deaths. If we figure all sylvari are born at the age of maybe 20 or so, the oldest among them is what, 48 now? Treesus wouldn’t have had a memorial because there’s no way Sylvari honour their dead, to our knowledge. Sure, we could have done another way, but who is to say that’s the correct way? I’m fairly certain Charr, Humans and Asura all have their own way of dealing with death, and we know that Norn do so by Moots and telling of the dead’s Legends.

It would have felt a bit out of place.

Ad 1) Eir was a huge character FOR THE NORN RACE. That is the important piece. Maybe she should have been just as important for the others, but she wasn’t. And even if she’s a legend not only among Norns, there’s nothing really making her the non-Norn PC’s close friend. Nothing at all except the devs saying so, wich is nothing but bad writing. So Eir’s funeral would be probably okay without all those empty friednship lines. So no, the memorial service did now work that well, it didn’t have to be there at all. You could simply get a message from Taimi practically anywhere.

Ad 2) So in nearly 30 years of existence and with quite a number of deaths they had no opportunity nor reason nor capability to develop some? Are we talking about the same Sylvari, who are curious just about anything they come across? That makes no sense. Also Riannoc and Evart from this Sylvari personal story chapter are clearly honored in some way. And might be at least an impuls to make some kind of ceremonial.
The other thing is Trahearne was a kittening Marshal of the Pact, that makes him huge too, so it wouldn’t be a tiny little bit out of place to have the memorial done by orders’ representatives for example.

Re sylvari funeral customs:

Keep in mind that sylvari bodies deteriorate very quickly, and they do not have graveyards at all – IIRC, the undertaker for DR’s graveyard even comments on how the job is odd (and odder that humans dislike doing it) in ambient dialogue to a passing by sylvari.

Riannoc is honored, but he has no grave. No sylvari does, except one: Killeen, and that’s because she was buried by non-sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Riannoc is honored, but he has no grave. No sylvari does, except one: Killeen, and that’s because she was buried by non-sylvari.

Not true. Evart was buried after he was killed by Bercilak, and while I don’t believe we ever heard if Riannoc’s body was technically recovered, the same sort of grave’stone’ is set up at the very spot he died on, where Iowerth goes to cast his ritual in Secrets in the Earth.

They may not have institutionalized it to the point of having graveyards- not yet- but there is precedent for the sylvari to bury their dead, and even to honor their final resting place.

What Aaron wrote.

Also, I see a problem with many people here thinking of funeral as just a way to get disposed of the dead person’s body. If you look at burial customs, very (if not the most) important part of those is to deal with losing someone. You don’t even need a body to do them. Consider all the “fake” funerals when a body could not be retrieved for whatever reason.

Silvary are a race clearly sentient, social and having emotions, so I don’t see how they would feel no need to deal with death. All the more when practically all those deaths are premature and violent. (For some reason one of the posts above felt like “Sylvari have no funerals because none have died naturally of old age so far”, wich sounded terribly wrong.)

And I would like to poit to this translation of memorial writings in Dragon’s Stand with several Sylvari names there – so another example of honoring Sylvari dead (although not by only other Sylvari, but that would be T’s case anyway).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Riannoc is honored, but he has no grave. No sylvari does, except one: Killeen, and that’s because she was buried by non-sylvari.

Not true. Evart was buried after he was killed by Bercilak, and while I don’t believe we ever heard if Riannoc’s body was technically recovered, the same sort of grave’stone’ is set up at the very spot he died on, where Iowerth goes to cast his ritual in Secrets in the Earth.

They may not have institutionalized it to the point of having graveyards- not yet- but there is precedent for the sylvari to bury their dead, and even to honor their final resting place.

Riannoc’s fate was unknown. His body unknown, his place of death, his sword. It was all unknown, except that he had died – because that fact was felt through the Dream. The entire beginning of chapter 3 for sylvari PS stresses this.

So that “grave marker” – if indeed one – is either meant to be post-PS, or was put by Wayne.

And with Evart, so far that seems to be an isolated case. One highly loved sylvari buried by another who’s borderline suicidal by the death doesn’t make a precedent, IMO.

And I’m not saying there’s no method for honoring fallen sylvari, but rather that there’s no (known) precedent for how sylvari handle their dead (it could just be handled on a case-by-case basis from being left to rot in the open to being burned to being buried, with several different iterations of each and everything inbetween), and given that hundreds would have died by now, the lack of graveyard indicates that burying the dead is an unusual occurrence at least and an uncommon decision to do at most – and the lack of memorial markers is equally an indication of it being an unusual occurrence or uncommon method.

Now, in relation to Trahearne: as anninke said there are other races who’d be honoring that. So I would expect a memorial, even without a body, for Trahearne and the sylvari fallen in that fight.

Though I suppose ANet could wave it off as “with all the turned sylvari, many races are iffy about honoring a dead sylvari, even Trahearne”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though I suppose ANet could wave it off as “with all the turned sylvari, many races are iffy about honoring a dead sylvari, even Trahearne”.

And it might actually be an interesting thing to do, provided that someone in the story would mention it. It would totally make sense and would be so much better to add one dialog line about this being a problem than a dev saying “bah, Eir was your friend and Trahearne wasn’t BECAUSE WE SAY SO.”
There could then be another problem – offering the Marshal position to a Sylvari PC. But probably not, as the PC seems to be a basic pink-pyjamas-nazgul to NPCs anyway.

(And off-topic – wow, I’m having a lore related conversation with my lore-forum idols… )

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Riannoc’s fate was unknown. His body unknown, his place of death, his sword. It was all unknown, except that he had died – because that fact was felt through the Dream. The entire beginning of chapter 3 for sylvari PS stresses this.

Reading back through the dialogue- they stress that the circumstances of his death, and the fate of his sword, are unknown, but they use much less clear language for the rest. They say Riannoc ‘was lost’, which could mean they didn’t know where he went or could just be another way of saying he died, and that he ‘vanished’, which doesn’t have a clear timeframe attached to it; you can vanish and be found again later.

By contrast, Secrets in the Earth is very clear. Iowerth immediately tells you to meet at Lychcroft Mere, where he then says, even before the ritual is cast, “The swamp may have swallowed Riannoc’s body, but it cannot keep us from contacting his soul.” That’s pretty incontrovertible evidence that they’d already figured out where he’d died, at which point it doesn’t seem odd to think one of them raised the marker. If it’d been Wayna, wouldn’t he have used a human tombstone?

given that hundreds would have died by now, the lack of graveyard indicates that burying the dead is an unusual occurrence at least and an uncommon decision to do at most – and the lack of memorial markers is equally an indication of it being an unusual occurrence or uncommon method.

I agree with that, but considering how sylvari die, I think a couple isolated cases does make a precedent for at least a practice the sylvari are aware of. It’s not so established as to be the ‘thing to do’, and I don’t think Trahearne’s at all likely to get buried, but I do think it’s an acknowledged option for sylvari like Gairwen, or whoever raised Riannoc’s marker, who feel the need to go through the motions of grieving.

Now, in relation to Trahearne: as anninke said there are other races who’d be honoring that. So I would expect a memorial, even without a body, for Trahearne and the sylvari fallen in that fight.

Getting back to the main point- this is pretty much where I am as well, whatever the Grove as a whole may or may not choose to do to honor him, and I think all three of us here are basically in agreement. My own take right now is that it’s something that has, or will, go on behind the scenes, but I prefer to think that just because ANet doesn’t include the segment for pacing reasons doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen at all, or even that our Commander didn’t attend.

Anyone else noted that in Eir’s funeral they said Jormag’s minions have been riled up more than usual, too. Could of course just be the after-effect of Mordremoth’s death, but wouldn’t it be sweet if we could be against TWO dragons at the same time next time.

I mean, we’ve already beaten two when we could go at the one by one. Maybe the dragons aren’t stupid and decide it’s time to snuff out the races before they come to them, too?

Branded are also riled up. We have seen this in the Current Events.

Though we’ve been told that the Svanir and Icebrood have been becoming more active in the PS. In Flame and Frost. And in S2, E3.

Icebrood have been getting more and more riled up for the past four years now, if not longer.

I figure the Eir memorial was more important to the narrative (since Rytlock was more likely to be there, and hence the conversation about starting a new guild; plus it ties up the loose end with Garm) than Trahearne. It doesn’t necessarily mean nothing happened to honor Trahearne though, just that we didn’t get to see it. With 8-9 months between the end of HoT and now, there’s certainly timeline space to put it in somewhere.