Guild Wars 2

this is what i dont like about lore telling in GW2, the possibility that what NPC’s tell us could be a lie or biased. only if the PC experience it during GW1 and GW2 could be stated as fact. they need to have a established lore of what really happen. this is horrible story telling. imo

I think a certain level of chilling out may be required until we end this story arch. Getting stressed out about things that seem wrong or seem like they could be biased or could be retcons, etc etc before the story is over is exhausting and not worth it.

draxynnic.3719:

I don’t think there’s anything in the tablets that mean that the mursaat were the good guys, certainly not at the time of Prophecies. In Prophecies, we see them megalomaniacally trying to take over the world. In the final tablet, we see them… megalomaniacally declaring that one day the world would be theirs.

On the other hand, the hints that the mursaat weren’t always the bad guys were there as soon as we knew there was an alliance among the elder races. Yes, they betrayed and abandoned their allies… but before then, they were part of the alliance, and in fact the strongest fighters in the alliance. Why did they betray their former allies, go to war with the Seers, and abandon Tyria? Well, now we know they’re side of the story – from their perspective, they were the ones that were betrayed and abandoned.

This doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly the good guys. It just means that they have a backstory to why they went bad.

Yes, this is it exactly. We get a sympathetic retelling of ancient events, written by either the Mursaat or the White Mantle for self-serving reasons. The author’s biases show pretty clearly and run counter to the story we’re more familiar with, but nothing in the tablets actually contradict existing events.

mexay.3902:

1. Magic is like “light” with each dragon energy being a component of said light. Other Dragons can and have absorbed other Elder Dragon’s magic. The combine energy forms Ley-line energy or “white” light.

…

6. The Chak filter out Death magic.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If Jormag is getting some fire power, would it weaken the dragon?

I’m definitely curious to see what comes out of this discovery. Is it possible that certain forms of magic are “anathema” to certain Elder Dragons? Maybe the EDs are capable of filtering magic when they draw it from a ley line like the Chak do, so that they aren’t hurt by absorbing their anathema magic that way. But that wouldn’t necessarily prevent us from targeting them directly with their anathema magic…

Alternatively, could we replicate the filtering effect on a larger scale to block Primordus’ Fire magic from getting transferred to the other Dragons when we kill him?

This makes me wonder something as well… Killing Zhaitan transferred Death magic to the other dragons, and killing Mordy transferred Plant magic to the other dragons. But Zhaitan was also the Dragon of Shadow, and Mordy was also the Dragon of Mind. Are those other aspects reflected in the prism? Is Primordus now a Fire-Death-Plant Dragon, or is he a Fire-Death-Shadow-Plant-Mind Dragon?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Squee: On second look, I suppose you’re right that the line could be twisted to be indicating that it’s talking about the world’s societies. However, the key thing to look at is that it’s a singular society that devolved and divided into violent tribes.

Most of this discussion is still a bit toxic for my tastes, but on this one point, I’d like to point out that tablet VII also refers to the world as a singular civilization. Our anonymous mursaat author didn’t seem to break society down into monoracial chunks.

Ranael.6423:

There is one thing that puzzles me with the tablets though (outside of the Crystal desert ofc) which is the last one “We mursaat… we returned and built a base among the Fire Islands, as strong as ever.”. Which means that when they came back their main stronghold was on the fire islands…. but Saul couldn’t have met them here, because it does not seem only a 4 days walk (and I am not counting the fact of crossing the sea). They must have migrated after the writing of these tablets. Interestingly In Gw1 their fortress on the fire islands was said to have been built to watch the door of Komalie.

The simple answer to the Saul dilemma would presumably be that, over thousands of years, they outgrew the desire to have only a single settlement. I agree that the Door makes for an interesting question, though- assuming that Khilbron wasn’t just mistaken or misleading us, it raises the possibility of the connection to the realm of a god extending quite a ways farther back than we’d supposed.

When we say “society” in regards to modern Tyria, it’s never implied that it’s of one specific race. We have to explicitly specify every time we want to refer to only human society or only Charr society. Otherwise society is always assumed to be every sentient race currently contributing to…society. Overall. The Mursaat would have done the same for their fellow races as well.

As for the issue with Saul, I’d say these tablets may add a little credibility to the theory that Saul didn’t find the Mursaat city in the jungle, but rather deliriously wandered through a portal in the jungle (forest?) and ended up in a Mursaat city/stronghold in some far-off location.
I think it’s at least as plausible a theory as any other out there at the moment.

Regarding the Mursaat returning shortly before GW1:
It would make sense for the Mursaat to only appear shortly before the events of GW1. Several NPC comments suggest the Flameseeker Prophecies had a certain chronology to them. Somewhere in the ~800 years after the Prophecies were writen the Mursaat had learned of them, but they needed too much souls to power the Door of Komalie to keep the Door closed for an undefined period. When the signs were there (possibly the fall of Ascalon) they returned (not from their out-of-phase-world but from hiding) to return as the Unseen Ones, saviors of Kryta. Using their new status they could finally get the amount of souls they needed (‘thousands’ within a few years, iirc), although by the time the PC participated in the rituals some people were already getting a bit suspicious (see dialogue from npc’s in the Divinity Coast mission).

Regarding the war between the Seers and Mursaat: isn’t it possible the war was already a long time ongoing before the Elder Dragons rose? As the current races/orders did during the personal story, somewhere after the rise of the Dragons the races realised they needed to unite in order to have a chance to survive (tab1, putting aside their differences). The residual distrust could be one of the reasons the alliance failed. After the other races had ‘betrayed’ the Mursaat (‘you are either with us or against us’) they retaliated by attacking the Seers again, possibly even trying to gain the magic stored in the bloodstone (because if you don’t use it, e.g. fight the dragons, why should you have it). Also, ancient war, the Mursaat got a chance to finally get the upper hand. In the end they could not get to the magic, left the bloodstone and fled the world. Glint later hid the other races.

Regarding the civil war/divided society: I too think it is meant as the world’s society as a whole, especially since it is said right before that that they started sharing the magic with said world.

tobascodagama.2961:

I’m definitely curious to see what comes out of this discovery. Is it possible that certain forms of magic are “anathema” to certain Elder Dragons? Maybe the EDs are capable of filtering magic when they draw it from a ley line like the Chak do, so that they aren’t hurt by absorbing their anathema magic that way. But that wouldn’t necessarily prevent us from targeting them directly with their anathema magic…

Alternatively, could we replicate the filtering effect on a larger scale to block Primordus’ Fire magic from getting transferred to the other Dragons when we kill him?

This makes me wonder something as well… Killing Zhaitan transferred Death magic to the other dragons, and killing Mordy transferred Plant magic to the other dragons. But Zhaitan was also the Dragon of Shadow, and Mordy was also the Dragon of Mind. Are those other aspects reflected in the prism? Is Primordus now a Fire-Death-Plant Dragon, or is he a Fire-Death-Shadow-Plant-Mind Dragon?

Actually, I don’t believe Taimi’s idea.

Mordremoth’ blight clones got nothing to do with death magic, it could be used on living thing as well.

Slowpokeking.8720:

tobascodagama.2961:

I’m definitely curious to see what comes out of this discovery. Is it possible that certain forms of magic are “anathema” to certain Elder Dragons? Maybe the EDs are capable of filtering magic when they draw it from a ley line like the Chak do, so that they aren’t hurt by absorbing their anathema magic that way. But that wouldn’t necessarily prevent us from targeting them directly with their anathema magic…

Alternatively, could we replicate the filtering effect on a larger scale to block Primordus’ Fire magic from getting transferred to the other Dragons when we kill him?

This makes me wonder something as well… Killing Zhaitan transferred Death magic to the other dragons, and killing Mordy transferred Plant magic to the other dragons. But Zhaitan was also the Dragon of Shadow, and Mordy was also the Dragon of Mind. Are those other aspects reflected in the prism? Is Primordus now a Fire-Death-Plant Dragon, or is he a Fire-Death-Shadow-Plant-Mind Dragon?

Actually, I don’t believe Taimi’s idea.

Mordremoth’ blight clones got nothing to do with death magic, it could be used on living thing as well.

So could Zhaitan’s power. Remember the living people that he changed into minions IN FRONT OF US? Or the Necromancer in the last Charr Personal Story mission for the Orders? That necromancer was very much alive. Zhaitan’s power may be able to corrupt the living if they accept his power, like the other dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And true, it doesn’t say that the seers were wiped out by their civil warring, but it seems implied in the wording.

@Squee: On second look, I suppose you’re right that the line could be twisted to be indicating that it’s talking about the world’s societies. However, the key thing to look at is that it’s a singular society that devolved and divided into violent tribes.

I must say, when I first read the line, before coming onto the forum to see what others had made of it, it didn’t even occur to me that the tribal warring could be what wiped the Seers out. I really don’t think that’s implied at all.

I also assumed that “society” referred to the wider Tyrian societies to which the Seers were gifting the magic (since the line immediately beforehand said they shared it with “the world”). Had it referred only to the Seers’ society, I’d have expected the Mursaat-written tablet to specify “their society” or something.

The reference to the “Crystal Desert” is the only real contradiction I can see. But, then, these tablets are written in retrospect. I always shiver to see the inaccuracies in real-world histories, even when they look back only a few hundred years. This is pretty tame in comparison.

Regarding the Crystal Desert…

Is it possible that it’s been a desert more than once? The gods reshaped and revitalised Tyria, so the area being fertile before the war with Abaddon could have been something that happened while the mursaat were away.

Regarding the use of the term ‘centuries’ – I think ArenaNet may just have been using this to signify “a lot of time” when “millennia passed”, while technically more accurate, is a less poetic term that some players might not even recognise. Judging by what’s in the post-return tablets (collapse of jotun civilisation, magic being returned through the Bloodstones, Forgotten having returned to the Crystal Desert, all of which we’ve been told or there is reason to infer that they happened around the time of the Exodus) I’d say that they returned sometime around or after the Exodus, possibly during the Guild Wars.

Heck, it would make a lot of sense if it was the unlocking of the Bloodstones (at least in part) that enticed them to return, although this isn’t mentioned in the tablets. They seem pretty determined to have magic, though, so it would make sense they wouldn’t want to return to a magic-deprived world.

RyuDragnier.9476:

So could Zhaitan’s power. Remember the living people that he changed into minions IN FRONT OF US? Or the Necromancer in the last Charr Personal Story mission for the Orders? That necromancer was very much alive. Zhaitan’s power may be able to corrupt the living if they accept his power, like the other dragons.

Yes, but those corrupted still turned into rotting corpses. First they become poisoned and sickened, then rotten.

Remember Kellach?

This is what he looks like, when the cinematic ends.

So I thought about Aurene for a bit. The way she looks she is obviously a combination of Kralkatorrik’s crystaly goodness (the crystal spikes on the back) and Mordy’s planttastic features (the barky skin, the MoM looking face). Now the last part comes from her absorbing part of Mordy’s magic when he died.
Maybe Glint’s other scion, Gleam absorbed part of Zhaitan’s magic when he died? Considering Glint’s forsight it would make sense for her to plan on giving him a role in those whole thing (which is also why she so fiercly protected him and her other eggs, it was more than mother instinct). We could get a half-zombie half-glint-look-a-like Gleam in a future LS update. Wouldn’t that be something.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the Crystal Desert…

Is it possible that it’s been a desert more than once? The gods reshaped and revitalised Tyria, so the area being fertile before the war with Abaddon could have been something that happened while the mursaat were away.

Regarding the use of the term ‘centuries’ – I think ArenaNet may just have been using this to signify “a lot of time” when “millennia passed”, while technically more accurate, is a less poetic term that some players might not even recognise. Judging by what’s in the post-return tablets (collapse of jotun civilisation, magic being returned through the Bloodstones, Forgotten having returned to the Crystal Desert, all of which we’ve been told or there is reason to infer that they happened around the time of the Exodus) I’d say that they returned sometime around or after the Exodus, possibly during the Guild Wars.

Heck, it would make a lot of sense if it was the unlocking of the Bloodstones (at least in part) that enticed them to return, although this isn’t mentioned in the tablets. They seem pretty determined to have magic, though, so it would make sense they wouldn’t want to return to a magic-deprived world.

Or the tablets could have been written after the Mursaat came back, and thus they used Crystal Desert because they learned what became of the Crystal Sea after they returned.

RyuDragnier.9476:

So could Zhaitan’s power. Remember the living people that he changed into minions IN FRONT OF US? Or the Necromancer in the last Charr Personal Story mission for the Orders? That necromancer was very much alive. Zhaitan’s power may be able to corrupt the living if they accept his power, like the other dragons.

But Zhaitan was still turning living thing into undead. Mordremoth was using living/dead to make clones, it doesn’t corrupt them. I don’t think it has to do with death magic.

The dead corpses were being used to create life…husks, from them. Raising the dead, in a sense.

There are at least two Cases of Mordrem being Corpses controlled by Plant-Matter. Mordrem Trolls ( the ones with the Bees ) and Mordrem Wolves.

The Trolls look like Troll Corspes who are infested with something and the Wolves are straight up Corpses.

RyuDragnier.9476:

The dead corpses were being used to create life…husks, from them. Raising the dead, in a sense.

But it doesn’t have to be dead at all. Living creature could be used to make clones as well.

Just like how a living person could be turned undead by Zhaitan?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Just like how a living person could be turned undead by Zhaitan?

But Mordremoth didn’t corrupt being into undead, nor does it use necromancy to animate the dead. It uses either living or dead creatures to make plant clones. That got nothing to do with necromancy or death magic.

It is more likely to be some DNA reformation, it is the magic power of the living rather than the dead, which is Mordremoth’ own domain.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

So I thought about Aurene for a bit. The way she looks she is obviously a combination of Kralkatorrik’s crystaly goodness (the crystal spikes on the back) and Mordy’s planttastic features (the barky skin, the MoM looking face). Now the last part comes from her absorbing part of Mordy’s magic when he died.
Maybe Glint’s other scion, Gleam absorbed part of Zhaitan’s magic when he died? Considering Glint’s forsight it would make sense for her to plan on giving him a role in those whole thing (which is also why she so fiercly protected him and her other eggs, it was more than mother instinct). We could get a half-zombie half-glint-look-a-like Gleam in a future LS update. Wouldn’t that be something.

Maybe Gleam had already been turned into someone’s champion, mostly Kralkatorrik.

Anyway, I still don’t think all the other Mursaat are dead.

Quickly commenting on the Mursaat revelation:

• The Mursaat tomes are written on the fire island chain, which means they happened after they came back out of phasing.

• The tomes are written by the surviving Mursaat and like with every society we don’t know who wrote it and on which informations. If it was just a scolar, who wasn’t present at the frontlines, then he would only have the favourable version of the story.

• The timeline doesn’t really change. We know that the races fought together once and then they percieved a betrayal by the Mursaat. We don’t know who decided that (most likely high ranking people), so when they decided to save the future generations vs. fight till death , the Mursaat not cooperation would be betrayal. The Mursaat would feel the same, thanks to their war effort.

• We don’t know ow old a Mursaat can be. Maybe we got some second generation Mursaat with GW1, who just followed the ideas of their elders.

On the story

• Taimis Game = Enders Game. Get it? Learning to fight your enemy in holographic szenarios…

• So Braham tells us of Jormag? I like that direction.

• And Rytlock is gone and even Taimi tells us how tight lipped he is about his sword and mist adventure. Well, hopefully next episode brings us to the Black Citdael to defend ex Tribune Rytlock.

• Magic is like light and each ED represents a spectrum of it? I can live with that. Not sure about the fact that we go towards a super dragon right now. I kinda have Green Lantern flashbacks here.

• Hurray for dwarfes. We really need to fix that guy and let him meet Odgen.

• The fire island part 1 is interesting, however I hope we get to the main islands in the future.

• Glints child is kinda cute, but creepy. Unfortunatly we know how a glint child looks like and even with the excuse of him being influenced by Mordremoths magic, this looks not very impressive. Cute, but stupid. I hope he come more after his mother.

• So, we can confirm that ED energy shapes it’s host? We don’t want a piece of Mordremoths conciousness take over that little critter.

• Lazarus get’s a new name. Lazarus the future betrayal. While I give him the benefit of the doubt, that him being the last (?) of his kind, might have a change of heart, I don’t trust him. Aside from revenge and possible regret there is nothing that would drive him right now. So as long as he isn’t able to resurect his race in some form, he will be a threat.

Taimi needs to build a golem for Rhoban.

Dwarfs in GW1 were already a divided and dying race, didn´t they even kidnap or kill their own king(can´t remember that good)? Just because they choose to fight Primordus at the end and you did some missions with them, many people tend to see them as heroes. I remember that best too, but they also had their fair share of villains. You had to fight through them on the other hand if you wanted to go over the shivering peaks.

Jotun are fully degenerated except for one in the home town of the norn if I remember well, and that guy is not the brightest light either. I don´t know if they did that by choice or just had to hide so long that they forgot how to be civilized and someday found themselves out in the cold with a glowing sword they did not know how to name but how to wield. They obviously still know how to fight from their movements and actions though. I am not sure if they were a noble race or not.

I am entirelly clueless about the motives of the seers right now. I always pictured them as the neutral o even good guys. In GW1, I considered both of them ancient races fighiting their last battle over principles.

It is possible that Lazarus had a change of heart. Or maybe he is just a clever guy who wants to see the world burn, but why not kill the commander on the spot then? It is heavily implied that Lazarus would be able to kill him from the talk after the fight and just take the dragon with him. Why fight the destroyers and not leave to commander to rot while disposing of the chosen and steal the dragon when the shileld is down?
*Maybe he thought things over and realizes that the seers were right all along.
*Maybe he is impressed by the uniting abilities of the commander who already brought down 2 of the dragons without the help of the mursaat by doing something the mursaat failed in, unite the races in a single fighting force together with Trahaerne. This gives him so much hope to destroy the thread of the elder dragons that he even abandons or stalls his revenge for later. He probably has no reason to hate the alliance members Norn, Asura and Charr anyway and may lack a reason to hate the sylvary now after Mordremoth is gone.
*Maybe he is so afraid of even a baby dragon because of a mursaat primal fear that he simply did not dare to attack the commander in it´s presence and bids his time now.
*Maybe he thinks Caudecus has taken over his organization and wants to use the enterprising commander to find and then slay him.

Not sure about Lazarus’ capabilities to kill us off quickly. Not only are we now also capable to absorb Magic, we can also use Countermagic to throw the Spells back he is sending at us, would hurt Lazarus quite a bit especially if we throw back his Spectral Agony.

And with the Death Thing and Mordremoth. Right at LS2 we saw corpses being used by Mordremoth, most obvious with the Wolves. These Things are Corpses reanimated with Plant Matter. I would call that undead. The Trolls also look like some sort of Corpse being renimated by some Plant Matter. Not so sure about the Terragriffs but their Face also looks a bit Skull Like

And Zhaitan’s Death thing isn’t just turning living into Undead but also using Dead Bodies to create more Minion, by either reanimating them or using these Bodies as Raw Material for other Types of Minions and well at the Time of HoT Mordremoth was also using the Dead as Raw Material.

Interesting enough. There has been no dead Things renimated by other Dragons now. No Icebrood, Branded or Destroyers were created using the Dead. ( Well for now, it’s likely that we see some Destrosyers in the Future who are also renimated Animals or People )

Walhalla.5473:

And with the Death Thing and Mordremoth. Right at LS2 we saw corpses being used by Mordremoth, most obvious with the Wolves. These Things are Corpses reanimated with Plant Matter. I would call that undead. The Trolls also look like some sort of Corpse being renimated by some Plant Matter. Not so sure about the Terragriffs but their Face also looks a bit Skull Like

So?

Jormag corrupts corpses too. It’s not something unique to Zhaitan.

What’s unique to Zhaitan is his corruption resulting in death, not that he corrupts the dead. Zhaitan corrupted living and fresh corpses and they instantly turned decayed and decrepid. That’s not something ever seen amongst any other Elder Dragon, even Mordremoth.

Scott McGough’s own line about the mordrem trolls is that they were living bodies being consumed by fungi which simultaneously replaced the body.

Walhalla.5473:

And Zhaitan’s Death thing isn’t just turning living into Undead but also using Dead Bodies to create more Minion, by either reanimating them or using these Bodies as Raw Material for other Types of Minions and well at the Time of HoT Mordremoth was also using the Dead as Raw Material.

Interesting enough. There has been no dead Things renimated by other Dragons now. No Icebrood, Branded or Destroyers were created using the Dead. ( Well for now, it’s likely that we see some Destrosyers in the Future who are also renimated Animals or People )

See, you’re wrong on this. Read Edge of Destiny. There’s a norn in the very first chapter who goes off to face the Dragonspawn. When he comes back, as an icebrood, his face is completely caved in and, iirc, denoted to be a moving corpse.

Also, look at the Claw of Jormag. It’s legs are ice-coated bones. Furthermore, the Dragonspawn was animated bones and ice. Yet another example of Jormag uses corpses and skeletons to make minions.

Both the Dragonspawn and said norn are made 6+ years before Zhaitan’s death.

And let’s not forget the fact that the Pale Tree used human corpses to base sylvari off of – the exact same thing Blighting Trees do – and over twenty years before Zhaitan’s death.

And I always thought that the Wolves were Corpses being reanimated by Plant Matter. I mean it certainly looks like that and and also would make sense sigh

And with Edge of Destiny. Forgot about that Book, need to look at it again. But right now from the Wiki, its not said that this is made out of Bones and Ice just living Ice. But I will look in this Book again.

But Claw of Jormag. The Legs look more like they are Bones made out of Ice instead of Ice covering Bones.

And the Pale Tree used Human Bodies as Templates but not as Raw Material. Mordremoth is using the Bodies as Templates AND as Material for more Minions. Like Tizlak said. “Mordrem take a Body from the Battlefield and turn it into many Monsters. So we always burn our dead imediately.”
This “burning the Bodies” wouldn’t be neccesary if he just uses them as Templates.

IIRC, the Dragonspawn included a minotaur/bull skull and ribs. It was made of bone, ice, and mist (rather than the “ice like bone” that the wiki says).

Mordremoth uses them as templates while they’re hooked up to the Blighting Trees. Which is what the Pale Tree did, in a way (they were in its roots rather than pods). Corpses were never said to be used as materials, just templates – both living beings and corpses were used, regardless.

Heck, Taimi even says in Episode 1 that the Blighting Pod fluids have preservative attributes, usable to keep even disembodied organs from decaying, meaning that it’s meant to keep the body placed in alive and undecaying. So they definitely weren’t desolving things for materials.

If Templates would be the only use of dead Bodies than Mordremoth wouldn’t need many dead Bodies to create an Army, but the Wording from Tizlak is implying that Mordremoth is always taking dead Bodies to create more Mordrem. You don’t need that for just Templates.

And as the Pale Tree shows us. You don’t need to have the Templates alive and undecayed to make more Minions. Just save this Template and keep producing. I mean is it even said that the dead Bodies at the Grave are now still there?

As we see with the mordrem hyleks, as well as Logan and Zojja, the mordrem created off of bodies living and dead are exact copies, including – somehow – one’s specialties. There’s dialogue in Jaka Itzel that talks about seeing a hylek who’s been missing for days bug slightly different and acting strangely (in other words, a mordrem hylek that’s so similar to the original’s appearance close friends recognize her but spot small changes in actions).

Mordremoth wanted diversity in his minions’ capabilities, on top of creating endless copies of them.

And the Pale Tree could have use the bodies as a template even as early as 1078 when we see it in Eye of the North. We don’t really know how early a tree can create minions, though the Auric Basin South watchpost meta does imply they can very early on, and also that the trees use bodies as nourishment to grow (but not to make minions – in other words, like any carnivorous plant).

Lazarus the Dire: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

The exact wording of the line is very interesting to me. Most would see these only as vengeful last words but I think this could be a genuine warning. As a mursaat he knew about the dragons which were about to be awake so he thought that without him the world would have no chance to beat the elder dragons.

NotOverlyCheesy.9427:

Lazarus the Dire: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

The exact wording of the line is very interesting to me. Most would see these only as vengeful last words but I think this could be a genuine warning. As a mursaat he knew about the dragons which were about to be awake so he thought that without him the world would have no chance to beat the elder dragons.

…That is an interesting observation. The Mursaat, while certainly Dramatic in their speeches, aren’t exactly the most straightforward.

NotOverlyCheesy.9427:

Lazarus the Dire: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

The exact wording of the line is very interesting to me. Most would see these only as vengeful last words but I think this could be a genuine warning. As a mursaat he knew about the dragons which were about to be awake so he thought that without him the world would have no chance to beat the elder dragons.

The rising question here is: what did Lazarus know to even think that he himself would make the difference in the fight against the Elder Dragons? His situation at that very moment was that he was one of the last of his kind. If the PC hadn’t interferred Lazarus would only have been back at his original level of power, which wouldn’t even have been enough to withstand a small group of humans. Just warning the world about the existance of the Elder Dragons would also not have been enough. What could he know that can give us a fighting chance?

Although it is an interesting notion to view his last sentence in this light, keep in mind it is only his last sentence. According to the wiki, he said all of the following after discovering that his ritual failed:

“What…? What…is this? Something is wrong! My power twists upon itself! What have you done to me? Accursed human! You have done this to me! I will not forget this! Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

IMO, especially the ‘I will not forget this!’ part is a strong indicator his words were a threat.

I enjoyed this episode for the most part. Taimi’s Game was fun with the lovely Moto reveal. It was interesting hearing about the dragons and their minions absorbing slain dragons’ magic and creating these new types of infused minions. Some hints at the ongoing Black Citadel subplot were welcome, and I liked Vikon’s banter. Seeing Windall briefly was also a nice touch.

I was quite surprised to see another dwarf, and exploring Ember Bay and meeting its various denizens was fun. It’s a shame we didn’t bother to mention Ogden to him, though. Given the appearance of the Unbound Guardian and the Sloth Queen from previous and this episode, I wonder if in Episode 3 we’ll encounter a Keep Construct of some sort or some other throwback to Stronghold of the Faithful.

I was glad to see my prediction come true and have Lazarus and the Luminate with the PC in the Inner Chamber although I didn’t expect Lazarus fighting alongside us. It was unfortunate that the writers basically shot down my fun little theory about the Luminate’s potential true identity now that the Luminate expressed not having seen mursaat before; it does make me wonder who exactly the Luminate was in life to become the venerated leader of the Exalted over the GW1 PC or other notable heroes from the day. It was nice seeing Marjory hint at the Belinda angle a bit, and it should be interesting finding out where this plot will go. Aurene was downright adorable; I didn’t expect her to look like that, but I liked her feisty nature from the get go with the way how she inspected her wings and growled at the Destroyers.

Reading about history from the mursaat’s perspective gave them some shades of grey, and it would be interesting if there were any other mursaat existing in some manner who could return and try to atone for their crimes, which would be a nice contrast to Lazarus should he still be consumed by hate and try to betray us. It would basically continue the thematic discussion from Episode 1 about whether people can really change. Unless the twist is that Lazarus has truly turned a new leaf and would actually turn against his kin (if they returned with vengeance in mind) to aid us. I do expect a sudden but inevitable betrayal from Lazarus, though, given how sinister a vibe he and his music have given so far, but we’ll see…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We don’t really know how early a tree can create minions, though the Auric Basin South watchpost meta does imply they can very early on, and also that the trees use bodies as nourishment to grow (but not to make minions – in other words, like any carnivorous plant).

Given dialogue from the event “Destroy the feeder to prevent the blighted sapling from producing Mordrem” in Auric Basin, it appears the blighted saplings, young blighting trees, do produce Mordrem from corpses.

Relevant dialogue:

Sage Manssir: Mordrem corpse takers. Vile things. They feed the blighted saplings that turn corpses into Mordrem.
Sage Manssir: The feeder distributes nourishment to the blighted sapling. If we destroy it, we starve the sapling.
Mordrem Guard Punisher: You’ll see. Each corpse delivered sprouts a new Mordrem that will consume this world.

Lazarus states that he had time to think over his actions. It is also pretty obvious that the mursaat lacked a person like the commander in their own ranks to unite the races. We are basically taking the plan of the mursaat, we are just better as they were in executing it.
I am a little bit concerned about his appearance in part 1 in regard to that theory though after doping it again yesterday. There, he is every bit the arrogant overlord creature everyone expects him to be. He simply anhilates the white mantle knights that stay at the side of Caudecus and does not really give them time to come to a decision. He also quickly claims his claim of leadership over the white mantle and his own supremacy.
A redeeming feature for him is that he is looking for something more noble to do, but what is noble for him? He also does not attack us and simply vanishes, but that could be for other reasons too.
Xera and Matthias are obviously true devotees of Lazarus, so they went to find him. I guess they were the hardiest bunch in the fens and the best Soldiers of Lazarus, so he should be a little bit concerned that a group of alliance members was able to slay them on their own turf and nearly halt his rise.

The guys staying behind at the Fen are the megalomaniac Bauer Nr. 9 who has no conscience at all from his diary and is simply an evil overlord general, Adrienne who is a confessed Caudecus supporter from her own words, the amoral but rather clueless scientist wizard stuck in a system of seniority and the apprentice who does not realize when it is best to shut up or who has never met Bauer face to face and has to pay the price for that. All pretty typical bad guys who I would set into the Caudecus side if there really is a Caudecus faction.

I still think more than one Mursaat had survived.

Kossage.9072:

I was quite surprised to see another dwarf, and exploring Ember Bay and meeting its various denizens was fun. It’s a shame we didn’t bother to mention Ogden to him, though.

At some point he comments that the Skritt have told him there is another of his kind at the Priory, though he doesn’t necessarily seem convinced it’s true. I expected our dialogue would confirm it for him. Perhaps the writers felt it was enough to mark that plot point as checked off by having the one-sentence mention. The PC focuses on dealing with the imminent eruption as the shattered dwarf seems up to speed on Ogden.

Me, I’d have had some compassion and let him know for sure that Ogden’s alive and admired. It can’t be easy wondering if you’re the last of your kind.

Why didn’t the Elder Dragons fight each other since they could get a huge magic boost after one’s death?

Donari.5237:

Me, I’d have had some compassion and let him know for sure that Ogden’s alive and admired. It can’t be easy wondering if you’re the last of your kind.

Or the reverse. Priory members especially should be heading back to let Ogden know another of his kind survived… sort of.

I doubt that there are any other mursaat left. For a long time, we thought even Lazarus was well and truly gone, even though everyone out-of-game was convinced he’d come back. If there are others, though, where would they be hiding?

Slowpokeking.8720:

Why didn’t the Elder Dragons fight each other since they could get a huge magic boost after one’s death?

Probably because if two dragons of equal power fight, there’s a good chance the initiator could lose. Why risk it when there’s plenty of easy prey elsewhere?

Rognik.2579:

Probably because if two dragons of equal power fight, there’s a good chance the initiator could lose. Why risk it when there’s plenty of easy prey elsewhere?

I don’t think they fear of anything, you can see how arrogant their minions were, especially when describing their master.

Mordremoth clearly showed acknowledgement of his potential to lose through his tauntings (if Mordy truly believed he could not lose, then there could be no way to be without him, thus “without mean there is only oblivion” and his similar lines means that he could be exempted from others’ lives, e.g., potentially defeated), and this to the Pact Commander, which is enough to know that Mordremoth could doubt that it would win in fighting another Elder Dragon. There is also the fact that he planted a seed for his regrowth/rebirth/continued existence outside of him losing that fight beforehand, meaning he anticipated the aspect of losing.

They are arrogant, yes, but they’re not so to the point of believing oneself infallible even if they do not believe such.

If Mordremoth was truly so arrogant as to believe himself undefeatable, then he’d never bother with that seed in Trahearne, and would never even consider that there is an existence without it.

Torolan.5816:

Lazarus states that he had time to think over his actions. It is also pretty obvious that the mursaat lacked a person like the commander in their own ranks to unite the races. We are basically taking the plan of the mursaat, we are just better as they were in executing it.

This matches a thought I had the other day. Lazarus may still have vengeance as his primary objective, but he may well have an order of priorities. He may have a grudge against the Elder Dragons that’s deeper than and overrides any other vengeance he might be seeking. Somebody who’s taken part in killing two Elder Dragons already would be a valuable tool in that goal.

I am a little bit concerned about his appearance in part 1 in regard to that theory though after doping it again yesterday. There, he is every bit the arrogant overlord creature everyone expects him to be. He simply anhilates the white mantle knights that stay at the side of Caudecus and does not really give them time to come to a decision. He also quickly claims his claim of leadership over the white mantle and his own supremacy.

Well, there’s really two ways to look at it.

One is that the arrogant overlord behaviour in Episode 1 is his true identity, and his more reflective attitude in Episode 2 is a facade. The other is that it’s the other way around: he’s genuinely changed, but he knows that the best way to gain control over the White Mantle is to behave in a way that the White Mantle would expect a mursaat to act, at least to begin with, until he can steer them in the right direction.

With respect to the White Mantle that he burns…

Whatever his plans are, it seems that he wants the Commander alive for now. We were surrounded by a lot of White Mantle there, and however good the Commander is in dragon-killing, taking on all those knights would have been a hard call, particularly since it looked like Valette had us tied down with some sort of spell before Lazarus intervened. If Lazarus doesn’t have much skill at making magical barriers (he’s appeared as a necromancer and as an elementalist in GW1) than wiping out Caudecus’ troops might have been his best approach to make sure the PC isn’t killed there and then.

I don’t see any way for Lazarus to be a good guy in this. He can do good things, he can help us achieve something, but ultimately Lazarus’ story is one of a villain. His promise at the end of the EotN quest chain is also one of vengeance and the most important thing here – it hasn’t resolved. You don’t make a threat like that without a story consequence/resolution for it. Lazarus can’t move on until his threat is resolved. His threat was that future generations would suffer, not just the people who defeated him 250 years ago, and right now the next generation of Glint just hatched (and he conveniently turns up at the same time as the child of his former enemy is born) and the human descendants are still around. He made a promise and his promise specifically ensures he would be a villain when he next appeared. Because GW2 focuses on five races and even some humans wouldn’t be related to the ones that defeated him in GW1, the unifying target of Lazarus for all player protagonists is the protection of Toothless. From a narrative perspective, Lazarus vs Glint’s next generation is the plot that makes the most sense, him portraying himself as an ally is just the most convenient way for him to accomplish this goal.

As much as the Elder Dragons are a threat, Lazarus for all we know (for all he knows?) is the last of his people. Why does he care if the world is destroyed or not? What’s left for him to protect? What reason do we have to think he had a change of heart? Most importantly, what kind of narrative gymnastics would it take for ArenaNet to take Lazarus a good guy?

Lazarus the Dire: “Pitiful humans. My brothers are dead, but I will tolerate your existence no longer.”
Justiciar Naveed: “Wait! It is me you’re after, Lazarus. There’s no need to harm these people any further. I…I surrender to your will.”
Lazarus the Dire: “Surrender? That was never an option. Your only choices are death and…death. You are a tool that has served its function. Your usefulness has ended. Disappear, now, from this world.”
Justiciar Naveed: “Goodbye…”
Lazarus the Dire: “What…? What…is this? Something is wrong! My power twists upon itself! What have you done to me?”
Lazarus the Dire: “Accursed human! You have done this to me! I will not forget this!”
Lazarus the Dire: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!”

Those aren’t the words of a man suggesting that his death will unleash a greater threat. It seems pretty obvious he meant he will get revenge one day. I don’t see how the narrative can support the idea that Lazarus is anything but an enemy without ignoring his character development from GW1. It can support the idea of a good mursaat, but this specific mursaat is an enemy, he swore as much, and specifically he swore his vengeance was generational, not something that would pass after his enemies died.

The only way Lazarus gets a redemption arc is if it comes after he fulfills the threat from EotN. Otherwise, why bother use him as the returning mursaat? If they weren’t going to use his characterization from GW1, why not simply use another mursaat with a background more compatible with being an ally?

Regarding being the last of his people:

It’s possible that part of his motivation is that he realises that what he does is going to be the last chapter on mursaat history. If he was to spend that being a villain, and eventually gets killed, then that’s it. The mursaat get remembered as villains until all memory of them recedes into the mists of legend. If he spends it doing something significant that helps the other races survive, though, then it’s a chance to overturn that.

Yes, he went out making dire threats… but that was in the heat of anger and he’s had two and a half centuries to think. And, in a way, countless generations have suffered. How much damage has the White Mantle done? How many innocents were sacrificed for his resurrection? Maybe he would have stopped that if he could. Maybe he has an antiheroic “ends justify the means” for those sacrifices, believing that his aid and knowledge will be needed. Or maybe he is just plain evil and doesn’t care who suffers as long as he gots what he needs.

Why use him as opposed to some other mursaat? Because the Chekhov’s gun might not be the threat itself, but the simple fact of his survival, and the threat is simply part of the circumstances of how he came to still be alive. If he’d been able to fully restore himself, he might not have been able to resist making one last attempt at retaining control of Kryta and dying at the end of the Krytan civil war like the other seven that survived the titans.

Now, it’s still entirely likely that he fully intends to fulfill that threat and everything he’s done up to now is part of his plotting. But that’s the interesting thing – he’s become a character where it might actually be ambiguous where he’s going.

Concerning Lazarus, I am quite sure he will betray us in a way or another. I know my point is weak but if he was genuine I do think the writers would have included Kas in the instance. Because last season there was this emphasis about her gift to detect lies and having Lazarus on the good side would have been confirmed by Kasmeer saying " I now it’s strange but I cannot feel the lies in his speech… I think we can trust him".

Her being away since the beginning of the season makes a good moment for a character to lie to us. I could also imagine some dramatic tension between Kasmeer and Marjory because Jory will trust too much Lazarus (maybe even be hypnotized by him) while Kas will try to argue that she should be careful.
But in the first time I wonder if Lazarus will make the PC help him to purge the White Mantle from the Caudecus followers (an arc that got opened in episode 1)in order to have full control of the organization. PC (supported by Jory) will see this as a good way to strengthen Jenna’s power in Divinity’s Reach, while Lazarus will purify (and then expand) his own army.

And then if I let myself do more speculations, I would see Caudecus and his remaining followers go to Ebonhawk to ally with the separatists but losing the fight there as well they’ll decide to go in the desert to find Glint’s lair to maybe find some kind of weapon against Lazarus. This will be our opportunity to go in the desert for next expansion

The weak link in the idea that he is still a villain is that he gives us time to analyze and outsmart him if he reveals himself to us. Before we met him, we only know of of how the Mursaat were a race of powerful casters with powers basically unknown to man today. He could have just remained in the shadows and watched the commander from afar to find out who he is and what he is capable of. This would have made him even batter as a anihero, the silent guy that anhilates a key foe then and when and learns from watching the commander what heroism and team work is like, slowly adapting his ways.
He probably already knows how to be a clueless dupe, so he can´t learn something form us regarding Caithe.^^

If he wants to make a spy out of Marjory, why do it in front of the commander?

Caudecus does not have the power to defeat Divinity´s reach in my opinion.
*He is a human supremacist, meaning he can not gather much direct support from non human races without angering his core followers.
*With guys like Bauer in command, you can´t win anything, people won´t flock to a ruthless guy like this in a regular battlefield environment. His type is basically the Logan Thackery of Caudecus. You want a Rommel, Napoleon or Leonidas at the head of your army, not a Nero, Gracus or Paulus.
His only chances are probably the ghots of Ascalon.

Torolan.5816:

The weak link in the idea that he is still a villain is that he gives us time to analyze and outsmart him if he reveals himself to us. Before we met him, we only know of of how the Mursaat were a race of powerful casters with powers basically unknown to man today. He could have just remained in the shadows and watched the commander from afar to find out who he is and what he is capable of. This would have made him even batter as a anihero, the silent guy that anhilates a key foe then and when and learns from watching the commander what heroism and team work is like, slowly adapting his ways.
He probably already knows how to be a clueless dupe, so he can´t learn something form us regarding Caithe.^^

It could just be that Lazarus needs us to trust him for his own plans to work. Even if he would beat us by surprising us, there are a lot of armies/faactions in the world that would want to see him dead, and would likely succeed at some point. What better way to start your revenge plot/plans for world domination/insert other evil plan by earning the trust of one of the most respected Commanders around?

It would not be the first time in this universe the bad guy pretends to be good in order to have the PC ‘save the world’ but actually helping him/her/it to power, only to be defeated by the PC when the PC learns of this betrayal.

Torolan.5816:

Caudecus does not have the power to defeat Divinity´s reach in my opinion.
*He is a human supremacist, meaning he can not gather much direct support from non human races without angering his core followers.
*With guys like Bauer in command, you can´t win anything, people won´t flock to a ruthless guy like this in a regular battlefield environment. His type is basically the Logan Thackery of Caudecus. You want a Rommel, Napoleon or Leonidas at the head of your army, not a Nero, Gracus or Paulus.
His only chances are probably the ghots of Ascalon.

Caudecus would probably not have to go for a full frontal attack. With help of the Ministry Guard (basically under his control, iirc) he could take the castle from within, possibly even through the Asura Gate. As long as he leaves the people of DR in relative peace he will not have that much to fear from them. As soon as he is in power the other races won’t stand up to him but just adjust to the new situation, happy or not.

Inc.4753:

Caudecus would probably not have to go for a full frontal attack. With help of the Ministry Guard (basically under his control, iirc) he could take the castle from within, possibly even through the Asura Gate. As long as he leaves the people of DR in relative peace he will not have that much to fear from them. As soon as he is in power the other races won’t stand up to him but just adjust to the new situation, happy or not.

I think he’s lost control of the Ministry Guard with the loss of the protection of the crown. Then again… it could end up becoming a full-blown rebellion, given the posters going around.

Ranael.6423:

Concerning Lazarus, I am quite sure he will betray us in a way or another. I know my point is weak but if he was genuine I do think the writers would have included Kas in the instance. Because last season there was this emphasis about her gift to detect lies and having Lazarus on the good side would have been confirmed by Kasmeer saying " I now it’s strange but I cannot feel the lies in his speech… I think we can trust him".

Her being away since the beginning of the season makes a good moment for a character to lie to us. I could also imagine some dramatic tension between Kasmeer and Marjory because Jory will trust too much Lazarus (maybe even be hypnotized by him) while Kas will try to argue that she should be careful.
But in the first time I wonder if Lazarus will make the PC help him to purge the White Mantle from the Caudecus followers (an arc that got opened in episode 1)in order to have full control of the organization. PC (supported by Jory) will see this as a good way to strengthen Jenna’s power in Divinity’s Reach, while Lazarus will purify (and then expand) his own army.

As I mentioned elsewhere in the forum, Kasmeer also said that she had trouble reading the Itzel, at least at first. Now, they were still hylek and I’m sure she met hylek before, sbo she wasn’t completely unfamiliar with them, but Lazarus is a mursaat, a species no one has (reportedly) seen in 2 centuries. She’d have a hard time reading him right at the start, but after hanging out with him kind of like how Marjory is/will be, she’d get to know the pattern. This could allow for a dramatic reveal where he leads us into a trap moments after Kasmeer realized he’d been lying to us the whole time. Besides, having a human lie detector with us for every possible ally turns her more into a crutch than an actual character. Finally, if she was with us there in Tarir, we might have had to leave her there as Marjory is with Lazarus and Caithe spying on them both. Her absence means she’s free to go elsewhere. Maybe she’s been hanging out with her mesmer buddies.