[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

SPOILERS!!!! Hoping a dev can chime in on this. Or some lore savvy players

Why did the Mursaat imprison Saul?

He says it was to make him their puppet, but he was already deeply loyal to them and worshiped them as gods. What more did they need from him that he would not give willingly?

I was hoping this would shore up that loose end from GW1, but after some thought, I am not seeing it. I just don’t get why the Mursaat’s actions toward Saul could be seen as rational, and what could have motivated them.

I feel like the original plan for what happened to Saul was supposed be something else. This narrative just doesn’t connect.

Videos for clarity:
GW1 https://youtu.be/zNfwRDpM8yE?t=1436
GW2 https://youtu.be/sCg-ZbyCUJU?t=52

Dorian and Hablion were clearly shocked at the betrayal, so I don’t think they were in cahoots with the Mursaat on the kidnapping.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

You never did the bonus mission pack in GW1, did you?

He was a loyal servant to them… until he killed dozens of humans – White Mantle humans – right before his eyes. He despaired, seeing the true nature of the mursaat, and they noticed this immediately.

To quote:

The Unseen Ones had made a promise, and they demanded their due. Kryta was safe, and Saul’s most devoted servants could continue to worship and serve their new gods. The rest of the witnesses would have to die, however, for they had seen the true power and glory of the Unseen Ones. As Saul watched his followers struck down, he realized his gods were neither good nor wise.

The Unseen Ones had promised to protect him, but not in the way he had hoped. To keep him from telling others what he had seen, the Unseen Ones took Saul with them. As he faded from mortal view, Saul realized he had not saved his people. He had betrayed them to new, harsher masters.

And he wept, knowing he, a traitor who had unwittingly deceived his own people, would forever be considered a hero of Kryta

It’s pretty clear in GW1 that Saul immediately regretted his actions and would have betrayed the mursaat had they not taken him. In the prison, they tried to “reconvert” him, so to speak, through the methods they apparently know best: torment and pain.

This was actually a pretty good closure to Saul’s plot, with no real contradictions to things.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

You never did the bonus mission pack in GW1, did you?

He was a loyal servant to them… until he killed dozens of humans – White Mantle humans – right before his eyes. He despaired, seeing the true nature of the mursaat, and they noticed this immediately.

To quote:

The Unseen Ones had made a promise, and they demanded their due. Kryta was safe, and Saul’s most devoted servants could continue to worship and serve their new gods. The rest of the witnesses would have to die, however, for they had seen the true power and glory of the Unseen Ones. As Saul watched his followers struck down, he realized his gods were neither good nor wise.

The Unseen Ones had promised to protect him, but not in the way he had hoped. To keep him from telling others what he had seen, the Unseen Ones took Saul with them. As he faded from mortal view, Saul realized he had not saved his people. He had betrayed them to new, harsher masters.

And he wept, knowing he, a traitor who had unwittingly deceived his own people, would forever be considered a hero of Kryta

It’s pretty clear in GW1 that Saul immediately regretted his actions and would have betrayed the mursaat had they not taken him. In the prison, they tried to “reconvert” him, so to speak, through the methods they apparently know best: torment and pain.

This was actually a pretty good closure to Saul’s plot, with no real contradictions to things.

I did play it. But look at the first video I linked. They killed them only seconds before kidnapping him. This wasn’t two separate events; the killing and the kidnapping. It was the same event.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

“We need to kill these people, in order to kidnap you, and we need to kidnap you because we need to kill these people”

edit – Which came first here? The chicken or the egg?

(edited by Lucky.9421)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Let me repeat:

He despaired, seeing the true nature of the mursaat, and they noticed this immediately.

The events weren’t simultaneous but rather consecutive within moments. They killed, he regretted, then they took.

Watch the second cinematic at 1:20, and it shows the transition – from the mursaat trying to convince him kindly (when he was first taken), to torture (when he refused).

There’s nothing unclear or uncertain here.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Basically what Konig says.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: BobbyStein

BobbyStein

Guild Wars 2 Narrative Lead

Konig is correct.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

Forgive my ignorance, but remind me why the unseen struck their followers down. Wiki indicated for seeing their true power but surely the mursaat want their powers known?

Im sure its obvious but gw1 is too far back for me to remember the details

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The ‘official’ answer is that the mursaat had a policy “only the worthy may see the Unseen Ones and live”.

The most likely actual answer is that the mursaat could sense which of Saul’s followers would be willing to kill innocents in cold blood for their gods without a second thought, and culled those who wouldn’t – therefore ensuring that the leadership of the White Mantle would be one that wouldn’t object to sacrificing the Chosen.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

Let me repeat:

He despaired, seeing the true nature of the mursaat, and they noticed this immediately.

The events weren’t simultaneous but rather consecutive within moments. They killed, he regretted, then they took.

Watch the second cinematic at 1:20, and it shows the transition – from the mursaat trying to convince him kindly (when he was first taken), to torture (when he refused).

There’s nothing unclear or uncertain here.

They take Saul, but leave his other followers. Hablion, Thommis, Gisinger, Dorian, Bryen, Jaemes and Rebekah were all there. At least three of them around still around leading the White Mantle after Saul is taken.

Why take Saul for seeing what the mursaat did but leave Dorian and the others? Any reasons for taking Saul remain the same for taking Dorian don’t they?

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

They take Saul, but leave his other followers. Hablion, Thommis, Gisinger, Dorian, Bryen, Jaemes and Rebekah were all there. At least three of them around still around leading the White Mantle after Saul is taken.

Why take Saul for seeing what the mursaat did but leave Dorian and the others? Any reasons for taking Saul remain the same for taking Dorian don’t they?

Because Saul repented. The mursaat killed Gisinger, Bryen, Jaemes, and Rebekah in that cutscene- for reasons drax touched on above- and when Saul watched that happen he realized the mursaat weren’t the kindhearted benefactors he’d thought them to be. He would have turned on them if they’d left him be. Not so with Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. In Prophecies we see that they’re fanatics who’d happily offer up Mantle lives to the Unseen Ones’ service.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

Konig is correct.

I always figured they killed the witnesses, so that Krytans would not know Saul was kidnapped. If it was the other way around, then why did they kill the witnesses?

Rank and file White Mantle can be seen fighting alongside Mursaat in Prophecies. Why would they be ok with being seen by those low level troops?

I get that the Mursaat are amoral, but they always seemed to act on logic.

All that explanation does is raise more questions, but not the good kind. This doesn’t seem rational or congruent to the universe.

I love how well the Caduceus LW story wrapped into the human racial story of GW2, and how well the Ronan story wrapped GW1 into the racial story of the Sylvari and Mordremoth of GW2. It all comes together so well.

The Mursaat/Saul story feels like it just didn’t come together, compared to those examples.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Rank and file White Mantle can be seen fighting alongside Mursaat in Prophecies. Why would they be ok with being seen by those low level troops?

Are they, though? We can see them, because that that point in the story we’ve Ascended, but can the Mantle grunts? As far as I know, there’s nothing that indicated that.

As for the mursaat’s reasoning, it might simply be a wish to foster the cult mentality. If only the most devoted ever see the Unseen Ones, that’s impetus for the rest of the flock to be devoted. If a random member who just happened to be in the right place in the right time, more devoted to their country and family than their gods, was given the same privilege, it erodes the mystique. It makes the gods more approachable, more personable, which runs counter to the image they wanted to project.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

The ‘official’ answer is that the mursaat had a policy “only the worthy may see the Unseen Ones and live”.

The most likely actual answer is that the mursaat could sense which of Saul’s followers would be willing to kill innocents in cold blood for their gods without a second thought, and culled those who wouldn’t – therefore ensuring that the leadership of the White Mantle would be one that wouldn’t object to sacrificing the Chosen.

It was Saul who asked the Murssat to help, and they made the case very clear right when they had appeared.

I don’t see why do they still need to keep Saul and torture him at all. It brings them no benefit.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Well keep in mind that the prison was most likely functioning on auto-pilot for the past 250 years. The mursaat were only around for one year after they imprisoned Saul. Eight, if you count up to and including the end of War in Kryta.

If Saul gave in during that eight years, it would have brought them a huge benefit.

Saul, savior, dies in noble self-sacrifice, only to be brought back to life by his gods, proclaiming them further as his saviors.

How does that not help solidify their claim over Kryta?

Even if it happened after Prophecies, if it happened before War in Kryta it would have changed the tide of the war entirely. People would begin seeing the mursaat not as remorseless demons that kill thousands, but as beings who are both benevolent and spiteful. And it would bring more to their side or at least to neutrality just to avoid retribution.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Well keep in mind that the prison was most likely functioning on auto-pilot for the past 250 years. The mursaat were only around for one year after they imprisoned Saul. Eight, if you count up to and including the end of War in Kryta.

If Saul gave in during that eight years, it would have brought them a huge benefit.

Saul, savior, dies in noble self-sacrifice, only to be brought back to life by his gods, proclaiming them further as his saviors.

How does that not help solidify their claim over Kryta?

Even if it happened after Prophecies, if it happened before War in Kryta it would have changed the tide of the war entirely. People would begin seeing the mursaat not as remorseless demons that kill thousands, but as beings who are both benevolent and spiteful. And it would bring more to their side or at least to neutrality just to avoid retribution.

I don’t see how do they need to do it, they already had very strong hold over the humans before the truth was revealed. If they thought Saul was so important, they could simply knock him out during the fight and continue to deceive him afterwards, without telling him who killed those people.

Especially in the War, if others saw Saul, they would think the Mursaat had brainwashed him. By the time the Musaat didn’t have much reason to join the war as well. The Titans were pretty much wiped out from the Realm of Torment.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Valmir.4590

Valmir.4590

Even the Shining Blade though that Saul had died. Him returning, proving himself to be Saul, a man well-loved by the common Krytan (he did save their country when their king and his family had fled and let their kingdom go to hell). Him returning would also have reinvigorated the common rank and file Mantle soldiers : their beloved leader back from the dead, stronger than before (he would have been imbued with more power) would have galvanized them. They wouldn’t have feared death anymore, making them far more dangerous enemies.

It is actually a testament to Saul’s true devotion to his people and Kryta that he endured such a grueling fate for more than 250 years. That man, despite being played by the Mursaat, saved his kingdom twice, first by repelling the Charr, and a second time by resisting the Unseen Ones’ tortures, which indirectly deprived the Mantle of an untarnished leader. What if Hablion and the others had become corrupt ? Saul d’Alessio would have been a living legend at that time, a man so dedicated to his people that even death wouldn’t have managed to come back to fight for Kryta.

Think about it : the common Krytan didn’t know much about the Mantle, the Shining Blade, the Mursaat and all that. But he knew Saul d’Alessio, and he probably knew that the Mantle had said that he was in the most wonderful paradise possible for his devotion. It would have undermined most of the Shining Blade propaganda efforts in favor of Salma.

I hope that we’ll see the memory of Saul being revealed into the larger game and actually be liked. The man was no Deceiver, he was more the Deceived and he paid a terrible price for it.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Even the Shining Blade though that Saul had died. Him returning, proving himself to be Saul, a man well-loved by the common Krytan (he did save their country when their king and his family had fled and let their kingdom go to hell). Him returning would also have reinvigorated the common rank and file Mantle soldiers : their beloved leader back from the dead, stronger than before (he would have been imbued with more power) would have galvanized them. They wouldn’t have feared death anymore, making them far more dangerous enemies.

It is actually a testament to Saul’s true devotion to his people and Kryta that he endured such a grueling fate for more than 250 years. That man, despite being played by the Mursaat, saved his kingdom twice, first by repelling the Charr, and a second time by resisting the Unseen Ones’ tortures, which indirectly deprived the Mantle of an untarnished leader. What if Hablion and the others had become corrupt ? Saul d’Alessio would have been a living legend at that time, a man so dedicated to his people that even death wouldn’t have managed to come back to fight for Kryta.

Think about it : the common Krytan didn’t know much about the Mantle, the Shining Blade, the Mursaat and all that. But he knew Saul d’Alessio, and he probably knew that the Mantle had said that he was in the most wonderful paradise possible for his devotion. It would have undermined most of the Shining Blade propaganda efforts in favor of Salma.

I hope that we’ll see the memory of Saul being revealed into the larger game and actually be liked. The man was no Deceiver, he was more the Deceived and he paid a terrible price for it.

The Mursaat didn’t care about that much. Otherwise they got tons of ways to keep Saul under their sway, why did they show their true face so early, if they thought Saul was so important? They just wanted enough souls to keep the door closed so they picked on the humans.

Saul was reshaped by the Mursaat otherwise he wouldn’t have become the hero later, it was also his request to summon the Mursaat to aid his ppl.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Thommis: “The Charr are mobilizing! We will soon be overrun. This is the end!”
Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.

Optimus Caliph: “You have called us. We have come. Together, we will force these heathens from the kingdom of Kryta.”
Optimus Caliph: “But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!”
Saul D’Alessio: “Yes, my lords?”
Optimus Caliph: “To you, we give our greatest blessing. Wield it with care, for its effects are devastating.”

Saul agreed with the deal, actually it was he called for help and said the Mursaat could decide the fate of the people.

I don’t see why should he be angry about it. Without the Mursaat they would all been dead.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Valmir.4590

Valmir.4590

You said it yourself, the Mursaat wanted souls for their batteries keeping the Door of Komalie closed. They killed some of Saul’s soldiers because they knew that those ones weren’t fanatical or stone-hearted enough to sacrifice hundred of their kinsmen and women in return of temporal power. Those who had proven to be able of such cruel behaviour were spared, such as Hablion. Kind of what the Traitor Legions did in the Horus Heresy (on Istvaan IV) if you’re into the Black Library novels of the Horus Heresy (40K lore)

Saul was, however, a very different tool. A broken man, he had been remade as a hero for the purpose of the Mursaats. He would have allowed them ever greater power over the Krytans, but when he saw them for what they were, he backed away. It is probably one of the cases where the Mursaats misjudged humans. They had assumed that Saul was fanatical enough in his worship of them to accept anything, and were wrong.

But they still needed him. No man could replace Saul d’Alessio in their machinations, he was needed, hence why they seized him and spread lies of his death will trying to convert him anew. HaD they succeed, they would basically have had a warrior Jesus returning to his people. no opposition would have managed to snatch away the peoples from Saul and the White Mantle, especially if the Unseen Ones had ordered Hablion and the others to make at least some appearance of penitence for being “too harsh”.

And Saul wasn’t angry, he was broken. He probably thought that the sight of the Mursaat would drive his soldiers insane if they weren’t worthy enough. Perhaps he believed that it would burn their eyes and sear their flesh, kind of like the true bodies of the Olympian Gods and Goddesses did when revealed to mortals. What he did not expect was his gods killing his friends for the sole crime of having seen them. That’s a whole other thing.

(edited by Valmir.4590)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

You said it yourself, the Mursaat wanted souls for their batteries keeping the Door of Koalie closed. They killed some of Saul’s soldiers because they knew that those ones weren’t fanatical or stone-hearted enough to sacrifice hundred of their kinsmen and women in return of temporal power. Those who had proven to be able of such cruel behaviour were spared, such as Hablion. Kind of what the Traitor Legions did in the Horus Heresy (on Istvaan IV) if you’re into the Black Library novels of the Horus Heresy (40K lore)

Saul was, however, a very different tool. A broken man, he had been remade as a hero for the purpose of the Mursaats. He would have allowed them ever greater power over the Krytans, but when he saw them for what they were, he backed away. It is probably one of the cases where the Mursaats misjudged humans. They had assumed that Saul was fanatical enough in his worship of them to accept anything, and were wrong.

But they still needed him. No man could replace Saul d’Alessio in their machinations, he was needed, hence why they seized him and spread lies of his death will trying to convert him anew. Has they succeed, they would basically have had a warrior Jesus returning to his people. no opposition would have managed to snatch away the peoples from Saul and the White Mantle, especially if the Unseen Ones had ordered Hablion and the others to make at least some appearance of penitence for being “too harsh”.

Let’s make the case clear.

The Mursaat remade Saul, without it he was just a cheater and drunkard who would never go back to defend his kingdom.

Saul and his people was about to be overwhelmed by the charr. Without the Mursaat, all of them would have been dead.

It was Saul who called for help first. He even made clear that “they should decide we live or die”.

The Mursaat showed up to help, and made clear right way that “only devoted ones should live on”. Saul didn’t seem to oppose it.

Why should he be angry about? He got what he asked for, his kingdom saved and he agreed to the terms before the Mursaat had helped him.

This time, the Unseen Ones answered. They manifested among Saul’s amazed followers, offering to protect him and his most devoted servants. The Unseen Ones would fight alongside Saul’s people and help defeat the Charr. But the aid of the gods would come at a price.

Saul faithfully agreed. The Unseen Ones descended on the encampment, repelling wave after wave of invaders. The Charr invasion failed that day, and the surviving Charr fled back beyond the Shiverpeaks.

If the Mursaat thought he was so important, why didn’t they simply knock him out and they could easily deceive him? They remade him to the man he had become and they didn’t know his behavior? I don’t see this being reasonable.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

And Saul wasn’t angry, he was broken. He probably thought that the sight of the Mursaat would drive his soldiers insane if they weren’t worthy enough. Perhaps he believed that it would burn their eyes and sear their flesh, kind of like the true bodies of the Olympian Gods and Goddesses did when revealed to mortals. What he did not expect was his gods killing his friends for the sole crime of having seen them. That’s a whole other thing.

Optimus Caliph: “But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!”

The Mursaat leader made it kitten clear and he agreed to the terms.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

Rank and file White Mantle can be seen fighting alongside Mursaat in Prophecies. Why would they be ok with being seen by those low level troops?

Are they, though? We can see them, because that that point in the story we’ve Ascended, but can the Mantle grunts? As far as I know, there’s nothing that indicated that.

Non-ascended humans can definitely see Mursaat. For example tagging a Mursaat, that is part of an Mantle mob, will cause all linked Mantle to aggro onto you, even if they are outside aggro range, indicating there is some communication between Mursaat and Mantle troops.

Also your allies Saidra and Evenia, who were not ascended, could see them.

(edited by Lucky.9421)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

And Saul wasn’t angry, he was broken. He probably thought that the sight of the Mursaat would drive his soldiers insane if they weren’t worthy enough. Perhaps he believed that it would burn their eyes and sear their flesh, kind of like the true bodies of the Olympian Gods and Goddesses did when revealed to mortals. What he did not expect was his gods killing his friends for the sole crime of having seen them. That’s a whole other thing.

Optimus Caliph: “But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!”

The Mursaat leader made it kitten clear and he agreed to the terms.

There are a few layers of subtlety that you’re missing with your repeated assertion that Saul agreed to the terms and therefore he should be fine with the results.

First, having had personal experience myself, it’s quite possible to be in a position where you’re forced to “agree” to terms you know cat well are felining unfair because however bad the deal is, it’s the least bad of a bad set of options. Saul’s alternative was death for all of his men, and quite possibly, the charr army reorganising and continuing the invasion of Kryta. Even if the mursaat killed all of them, that’s still better than dying for nothing. However, just because it’s better than the alternative doesn’t mean he liked it. It’s entirely possible that Saul’s eyes were opened as soon as the terms were offered, but he went through with it simply because it was still better than the alternatives. Granted, he did say that he was putting their lives in the hands of the Unseen… but he was probably thinking in terms of “they will decide whether to intervene or not”, rather than “even if they intervene, they may kill us all themselves!” Either way, though, just because a deal was accepted doesn’t mean that the person who accepted it thinks it’s a good deal: after all, Rumplestiltskin is considered to be a villain.

Second, we know that people cannot look on the Five/Six Gods without risk of being blinded, and this happened even if the gods might wish otherwise. We didn’t know this in Guild Wars 1, but it’s likely that characters inside the game world, such as Saul, knew Malchior’s story, just like there are a lot of things about ordinary life in Tyria that we don’t know but our characters should. Saul could easily have thought that the “price” was something similar: the unworthy would die from seeing the mursaat because that’s just how things are, and the mursaat couldn’t stop it from happening however much they wanted to. Instead, it’s very clear that the mursaat picked out their victims and killed them deliberately afterwards. There’s a significant distinction between “We’ll help you, but we’re so powerful that some of you will die from our very presence. Sorry about that, but we honestly can’t help it” and “We’ll help you, but afterwards we’ll kill half of you in cold blood afterwards because you don’t measure up to our idea of being worthy”. If Saul was expecting the first, seeing the second could definitely give him a different idea of whether the mursaat were truly virtuous.

Third, there’s the matter of who was deemed ‘worthy’. We can get a brief idea of what the personalities of Saul’s followers were like from their dialogue before the mission, and Saul probably had a much better idea of their character – which ones were genuinely virtuous, and which were darker in character. Saul might well have accepted that the latter might need to be sacrificed for the greater good while expecting that the former would be deemed worthy… instead, he saw the exact opposite happen. Those whom your “god” considers to be worthy is likely a reflection of their true character, and Saul might have realised that there was no way that a virtuous deity would deem Dorian, Hablion and Thommis worthy while condemning the rest.

Any one of these individually could have been enough to disillusion Saul with regards to the mursaat – put them together, and they only strengthen and reinforce one another (for instance, the second point makes it obvious that the third point is a deliberate choice on the part of the mursaat, not simply a matter of the more powerful individuals being spared because they have the strength to withstand the presence of the mursaat).

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

There are a few layers of subtlety that you’re missing with your repeated assertion that Saul agreed to the terms and therefore he should be fine with the results.

First, having had personal experience myself, it’s quite possible to be in a position where you’re forced to “agree” to terms you know cat well are felining unfair because however bad the deal is, it’s the least bad of a bad set of options. Saul’s alternative was death for all of his men, and quite possibly, the charr army reorganising and continuing the invasion of Kryta. Even if the mursaat killed all of them, that’s still better than dying for nothing. However, just because it’s better than the alternative doesn’t mean he liked it. It’s entirely possible that Saul’s eyes were opened as soon as the terms were offered, but he went through with it simply because it was still better than the alternatives. Granted, he did say that he was putting their lives in the hands of the Unseen… but he was probably thinking in terms of “they will decide whether to intervene or not”, rather than “even if they intervene, they may kill us all themselves!” Either way, though, just because a deal was accepted doesn’t mean that the person who accepted it thinks it’s a good deal: after all, Rumplestiltskin is considered to be a villain.

Second, we know that people cannot look on the Five/Six Gods without risk of being blinded, and this happened even if the gods might wish otherwise. We didn’t know this in Guild Wars 1, but it’s likely that characters inside the game world, such as Saul, knew Malchior’s story, just like there are a lot of things about ordinary life in Tyria that we don’t know but our characters should. Saul could easily have thought that the “price” was something similar: the unworthy would die from seeing the mursaat because that’s just how things are, and the mursaat couldn’t stop it from happening however much they wanted to. Instead, it’s very clear that the mursaat picked out their victims and killed them deliberately afterwards. There’s a significant distinction between “We’ll help you, but we’re so powerful that some of you will die from our very presence. Sorry about that, but we honestly can’t help it” and “We’ll help you, but afterwards we’ll kill half of you in cold blood afterwards because you don’t measure up to our idea of being worthy”. If Saul was expecting the first, seeing the second could definitely give him a different idea of whether the mursaat were truly virtuous.

Third, there’s the matter of who was deemed ‘worthy’. We can get a brief idea of what the personalities of Saul’s followers were like from their dialogue before the mission, and Saul probably had a much better idea of their character – which ones were genuinely virtuous, and which were darker in character. Saul might well have accepted that the latter might need to be sacrificed for the greater good while expecting that the former would be deemed worthy… instead, he saw the exact opposite happen. Those whom your “god” considers to be worthy is likely a reflection of their true character, and Saul might have realised that there was no way that a virtuous deity would deem Dorian, Hablion and Thommis worthy while condemning the rest.

Any one of these individually could have been enough to disillusion Saul with regards to the mursaat – put them together, and they only strengthen and reinforce one another (for instance, the second point makes it obvious that the third point is a deliberate choice on the part of the mursaat, not simply a matter of the more powerful individuals being spared because they have the strength to withstand the presence of the mursaat).

The Mursaat didn’t force him to agree, they made the offer. And it was his prayer which called them up.

No, the three Mursaat already showed up then said that line. It had nothing to with their presence.

It was not up for him to decide, but like he had said.

Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.

Saul called for help by himself, the Mursaat made the deal very clear right when they showed up and he had agreed. They did keep their word to save Kryta. He had no ground to complain.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Valmir.4590

Valmir.4590

Slowpokeking, I sometimes wonder if you are not trolling. Seriously, how hard is that to grasp what draw and me tried to explain : there is a difference between accepting the possibility to die in battle or to suffer unwanted suffering from the mere presence of your gods in battle. It is another to accept the cold-blooded murder of your friends.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking, I sometimes wonder if you are not trolling. Seriously, how hard is that to grasp what draw and me tried to explain : there is a difference between accepting the possibility to die in battle or to suffer unwanted suffering from the mere presence of your gods in battle. It is another to accept the cold-blooded murder of your friends.

It has nothing to do with their presence, they showed up then told Saul about it.

This time, the Unseen Ones answered. They manifested among Saul’s amazed followers, offering to protect him and his most devoted servants. The Unseen Ones would fight alongside Saul’s people and help defeat the Charr. But the aid of the gods would come at a price.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I don’t see how do they need to do it, they already had very strong hold over the humans before the truth was revealed.

Not really. Aside from the prophecy telling them that a group of Chosen would wipe out their entire race, something they were actively trying to avoid, the Krytan nation by 1072 (a year after Saul’s capture and imprisonment) the nation was split between the White Mantle and faithful to the Five Gods, there was still the Lionguard,

And of course, in less than a year, the Shining Blade was formed.

Not exactly a strong hold over a nation.

If they thought Saul was so important, they could simply knock him out during the fight and continue to deceive him afterwards, without telling him who killed those people.

Aside from the fact that they couldn’t predict how Saul would react, even if they did this the charr threat was definitely gone already – there was no one but the mursaat and White Mantle present when the White Mantle were killed.

Even a brain dead idiot can figure out who the killers were there.

Especially in the War, if others saw Saul, they would think the Mursaat had brainwashed him. By the time the Musaat didn’t have much reason to join the war as well. The Titans were pretty much wiped out from the Realm of Torment.

Not really. Firstly, while a growing number of people had gone to the Shining Blade’s side and grown distrust in the White Mantle this was largely due to the harsher actions of Isaiah compared to previously. Secondly, most of those who were anti-White Mantle had already believed Saul to be a deceiver and false prophet. So they wouldn’t believe him brainwashed but a fanatic.

Thirdly, there were a lot of people on the fence during the War in Kryta. It was underplayed but there were people selling out their neighbors to the White Mantle in hopes of being ignored themselves or having gotten some kind of reward. One prime example being Layman Josef

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Not really. Aside from the prophecy telling them that a group of Chosen would wipe out their entire race, something they were actively trying to avoid, the Krytan nation by 1072 (a year after Saul’s capture and imprisonment) the nation was split between the White Mantle and faithful to the Five Gods, there was still the Lionguard,

As long as they have enough chosen it’s not a problem.

]Aside from the fact that they couldn’t predict how Saul would react, even if they did this the charr threat was definitely gone already – there was no one but the mursaat and White Mantle present when the White Mantle were killed.

Even a brain dead idiot can figure out who the killers were there.

They just need to knock out Saul during the battle, then kill people or just let the charr kill everyone then save the day. Not a problem to them at all. They remade Saul to the person he became, why would they fail to predict it at all?

Not really. Firstly, while a growing number of people had gone to the Shining Blade’s side and grown distrust in the White Mantle this was largely due to the harsher actions of Isaiah compared to previously. Secondly, most of those who were anti-White Mantle had already believed Saul to be a deceiver and false prophet. So they wouldn’t believe him brainwashed but a fanatic.

Thirdly, there were a lot of people on the fence during the War in Kryta. It was underplayed but there were people selling out their neighbors to the White Mantle in hopes of being ignored themselves or having gotten some kind of reward. One prime example being Layman Josef

Why does it matter to them? The White Mantle are just tools for them to get the chosen and keep the door closed. Other than that they don’t care about human business at all.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

As I said, just because you accept the terms of a deal doesn’t stop you from thinking that the person offering the terms is a selfish kittenering terms that you’d reject as clearly unfair in other circumstances, but which you’re forced to accept because you literally have no better options.

Even if you do genuinely agree at first, seeing how it’s implemented can change your mind. In particular, seeing who a supposed god considers to be worthy or unworthy says a lot about the god’s true character: a god who deems a trio of sociopaths to be ‘worthy’ while condemning more altruistic individuals as ‘unworthy’ is not one that is likely to be benevolent or kind themselves. Saul could well have accepted that some of the group would be killed for the greater good, or if it was simply a ‘will not survive out full presence’ thing (gods using avatars that are less destructive to their followers is a thing, after all, so just because the mursaat ‘appeared’ doesn’t mean that they can limit the collateral damage of a full manifestation) but seeing which ones were killed made it clear that the greater good was not on their minds.

By your reasoning, the heroine of Rumplestiltskin should have just handed over her firstborn child with no complaints. After all, she agreed to the deal (in some versions)! Never mind that the alternative was dying then and there. Also, by your reasoning, blackmail stops being a crime as soon as the victim pays up, because hey, they agreed!

Most legal systems, in the West at least, have laws by which a contract made under duress can be considered nonbinding, and with good reason.

They just need to knock out Saul during the battle, then kill people or just let the charr kill everyone then save the day. Not a problem to them at all. They remade Saul to the person he became, why would they fail to predict it at all?

It’s not really clear the mursaat really did anything except feed him, clothe him, and give him a purpose… a purpose that he lost faith in when he saw what the mursaat really were.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Even if you do genuinely agree at first, seeing how it’s implemented can change your mind. In particular, seeing who a supposed god considers to be worthy or unworthy says a lot about the god’s true character: a god who deems a trio of sociopaths to be ‘worthy’ while condemning more altruistic individuals as ‘unworthy’ is not one that is likely to be benevolent or kind themselves. Saul could well have accepted that some of the group would be killed for the greater good, or if it was simply a ‘will not survive out full presence’ thing (gods using avatars that are less destructive to their followers is a thing, after all, so just because the mursaat ‘appeared’ doesn’t mean that they can limit the collateral damage of a full manifestation) but seeing which ones were killed made it clear that the greater good was not on their minds.

I think you’re overstating that point. While I agree that they proved to be overzealous after they took over (and Thommis was just a piece of work in general), that wouldn’t necessarily be evident before they had power to abuse. Before the attack, Saul specifically called those three out as his most trusted followers, and charged them with taking over the cause should anything happen to him.

That said? There’s a world of difference between deaths caused by inaction, deaths caused incidentally as the unavoidable consequence of an action with a different purpose, and deaths caused actively and intentionally- with a dose of sadism thrown in, since it looked like Saul’s men died in extreme pain. It’d derail the thread to get into the philosophical arguments, and it doesn’t have to make a difference to you, Slowpoke, but suffice to say that there is not a widely adhered-to ethical model in the world that claims you are justified in taking someone’s life so long as you saved it at an earlier point. Quite a few people believe that, and all it takes to make Saul’s reaction make sense is to suppose that he was one of them.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

Not so with Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. In Prophecies we see that they’re fanatics who’d happily offer up Mantle lives to the Unseen Ones’ service.

They don’t know that. They take Saul and leave the others without either of them saying how they feel about the mursaat.

You make a huge assumption that the mursaat know something they don’t know – that Saul will reject them while Dorian, Hablion and Thommis will accept them and their brutality. Nowhere is it established before Saul is taken that the other three are more willing to co-operate than Saul would be.

As far as I know, and correct me if I’m wrong, draxynnic has completely fabricated a super power that the mursaat are not established to have anywhere in the lore – the ability to detect whether a person will kill an innocent in cold blood.

Your argument doesn’t hold water because it’s simply not established at the time (to either the audience or the mursaat) how Saul or anyone else will react to the mursaat.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Not so with Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. In Prophecies we see that they’re fanatics who’d happily offer up Mantle lives to the Unseen Ones’ service.

They don’t know that. They take Saul and leave the others without either of them saying how they feel about the mursaat.

You make a huge assumption that the mursaat know something they don’t know – that Saul will reject them while Dorian, Hablion and Thommis will accept them and their brutality. Nowhere is it established before Saul is taken that the other three are more willing to co-operate than Saul would be.

As far as I know, and correct me if I’m wrong, draxynnic has completely fabricated a super power that the mursaat are not established to have anywhere in the lore – the ability to detect whether a person will kill an innocent in cold blood.

Your argument doesn’t hold water because it’s simply not established at the time (to either the audience or the mursaat) how Saul or anyone else will react to the mursaat.

You are, perhaps, correct that they couldn’t know those three would kill for them- but it’s not at all a stretch to believe that the mursaat knew they were the most devoted of the group with Saul. From just the snippets of conversation that we have in the Bonus Mission Pack, it’s clear that Hablion, Thommis, and Dorian are true believers, while Bryen and Gisinger believe but also have split loyalties to their families and loved ones, and Jaemes and Rebekah are pretty open about only being along to help their countrymen. Of those categories, which would you think is more likely to perform human sacrifice at their gods’ command? And unless you are fabricating a super power of the mursaat to hear prayers and teleport across vast distances to answer them, we know that Optimus and the rest were close at hand, and so easily could’ve overheard the same things we did.

As for how those three were judged more loyal than Saul- that’s simple. We see Saul react to the death of his men, and needless to say, he took it poorly. The mursaat were on hand and would’ve had to be blind to miss the kind of reactions we’re shown in the Bonus Mission Pack and the end of the raid. It didn’t have to be premeditated, when the signs were there to respond to on the fly. The other three? No such response. Sure, they seem surprised to see Saul taken… but they still don’t try to intervene, and while the actual killing was being done, they stood impassively in the background and watched.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

I skimped through the thread and saw no mention of the following; if you guys played the raid or watched WP’s video, you should know the Mursaat’s Bastion was actually managed by the Eye of Janthir itself. It even actively tries to send you to the Mists during the Deimos battle. This alone implies it has some kind of intelligence, or at least a specific purpose which it follows pragmatically and independently of its masters (or should it be “its partners”?).

With this in mind, we could question whether or not Saul even first stumbled upon the “Mursaat city” by accident; maybe the Eye guided him there, or for some reason chose him to carry whatever plan the Mursaat (or perhaps the Eye itself) had at the time. We also see three (apparently living) prisoners during the third boss: Samarog, an ancient Jotun from before their fall, and a human. Out-of-combat fights during the raid also imply the Bastion held Forgotten and other races of Tyria. And those were, at least when we got there, all under the scrutiny of the Eye of Janthir.

So perhaps Saul was spared not by the Mursaat’s own machinations but maybe the Eye had a hand (heh) on it, and for some reason decided to maintain Saul chained to Deimos for all this time. Since Anet has set it to have raids as a third source of storyline (along with LW/Journal and Fractals), I really wish they would touch on the subject of the Eye of Janthir again and finally explain its nature. Specially now that they have raised even more questions about it, which is Anet being Anet as usual.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

As I said, just because you accept the terms of a deal doesn’t stop you from thinking that the person offering the terms is a selfish kittenering terms that you’d reject as clearly unfair in other circumstances, but which you’re forced to accept because you literally have no better options.

Even if you do genuinely agree at first, seeing how it’s implemented can change your mind. In particular, seeing who a supposed god considers to be worthy or unworthy says a lot about the god’s true character: a god who deems a trio of sociopaths to be ‘worthy’ while condemning more altruistic individuals as ‘unworthy’ is not one that is likely to be benevolent or kind themselves. Saul could well have accepted that some of the group would be killed for the greater good, or if it was simply a ‘will not survive out full presence’ thing (gods using avatars that are less destructive to their followers is a thing, after all, so just because the mursaat ‘appeared’ doesn’t mean that they can limit the collateral damage of a full manifestation) but seeing which ones were killed made it clear that the greater good was not on their minds.

By your reasoning, the heroine of Rumplestiltskin should have just handed over her firstborn child with no complaints. After all, she agreed to the deal (in some versions)! Never mind that the alternative was dying then and there. Also, by your reasoning, blackmail stops being a crime as soon as the victim pays up, because hey, they agreed!

Most legal systems, in the West at least, have laws by which a contract made under duress can be considered nonbinding, and with good reason.

It’s not really clear the mursaat really did anything except feed him, clothe him, and give him a purpose… a purpose that he lost faith in when he saw what the mursaat really were.

As long as they were made clear with no deception, it’s a deal. Just like we help Joko reestablish his power and THIS had caused much worse consequence than the Mursaat.

But it’s not blackmail, the Mursaat had nothing behind the charr invasion, they simply offered a harsh deal and Saul accepted it. Why should he complain? He had his right to refuse it and he decided to agree it.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

I think you’re overstating that point. While I agree that they proved to be overzealous after they took over (and Thommis was just a piece of work in general), that wouldn’t necessarily be evident before they had power to abuse. Before the attack, Saul specifically called those three out as his most trusted followers, and charged them with taking over the cause should anything happen to him.

That said? There’s a world of difference between deaths caused by inaction, deaths caused incidentally as the unavoidable consequence of an action with a different purpose, and deaths caused actively and intentionally- with a dose of sadism thrown in, since it looked like Saul’s men died in extreme pain. It’d derail the thread to get into the philosophical arguments, and it doesn’t have to make a difference to you, Slowpoke, but suffice to say that there is not a widely adhered-to ethical model in the world that claims you are justified in taking someone’s life so long as you saved it at an earlier point. Quite a few people believe that, and all it takes to make Saul’s reaction make sense is to suppose that he was one of them.

Death is still death, Saul got the choice to refuse their help, it was he who called for help and the Mursaat made the deal very clear. They didn’t force Saul to accept. He decided to accept it and the Mursaat did exactly what they said. A deal is a deal.

Even our character had helped Joko restore his power and THIS had caused the entire Elona to fall under its tyrannic reign for 250 years. We surely knew he was no good and could be a major threat to Elona, we still helped him.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Saul never accepted it. Reading through the mission, the sequence of events went like this:

*Saul and his followers are stranded behind enemy lines, desperately outnumbered, with the fury of the entire charr army breathing down their necks.
*With no hope of winning on their own, they pray to their gods for deliverance.
*Miraculously, the gods appear- faith rewarded.
*The gods promise, in clear terms, to not only win the battle but end the invasion altogether.
*The gods make some ominous, unclear warning about a price to be paid, without specifying what they mean.
*The gods then call Saul specifically out, breaking whatever line of thought he may have begun.
*The gods draw Saul’s attention to a gift of great power.
*The charr descend upon them and the battle begins.
*After wave after wave, the enemy finally runs out of battle to send.
*The gods turn around and butcher Saul’s followers without another word.

Imagine the rollercoaster of emotions there, and then the fight afterwards, the mingled elation and exhaustion at the end. Imagine going from that to seeing your comrades-in-arms cut down by the very force you’d believed saved them.

There was no ‘deal’. There was no chance for Saul to agree, or object, or even process what they were talking about. The mursaat rushed him right on past that. They didn’t lay out the terms for him to consider, or even coerce him into agreeing the way drax has been saying. Optimus Caliph straight up fast-talked him past the point and then moved right back into dazzling him with a sign that divine deliverance was at hand.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Saul never accepted it. Reading through the mission, the sequence of events went like this:

*Saul and his followers are stranded behind enemy lines, desperately outnumbered, with the fury of the entire charr army breathing down their necks.
*With no hope of winning on their own, they pray to their gods for deliverance.
*Miraculously, the gods appear- faith rewarded.
*The gods promise, in clear terms, to not only win the battle but end the invasion altogether.
*The gods make some ominous, unclear warning about a price to be paid, without specifying what they mean.
*The gods then call Saul specifically out, breaking whatever line of thought he may have begun.
*The gods draw Saul’s attention to a gift of great power.
*The charr descend upon them and the battle begins.
*After wave after wave, the enemy finally runs out of battle to send.
*The gods turn around and butcher Saul’s followers without another word.

Imagine the rollercoaster of emotions there, and then the fight afterwards, the mingled elation and exhaustion at the end. Imagine going from that to seeing your comrades-in-arms cut down by the very force you’d believed saved them.

There was no ‘deal’. There was no chance for Saul to agree, or object, or even process what they were talking about. The mursaat rushed him right on past that. They didn’t lay out the terms for him to consider, or even coerce him into agreeing the way drax has been saying. Optimus Caliph straight up fast-talked him past the point and then moved right back into dazzling him with a sign that divine deliverance was at hand.

This time, the Unseen Ones answered. They manifested among Saul’s amazed followers, offering to protect him and his most devoted servants. The Unseen Ones would fight alongside Saul’s people and help defeat the Charr. But the aid of the gods would come at a price.

Saul faithfully agreed. The Unseen Ones descended on the encampment, repelling wave after wave of invaders. The Charr invasion failed that day, and the surviving Charr fled back beyond the Shiverpeaks.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

As far as I know, and correct me if I’m wrong, draxynnic has completely fabricated a super power that the mursaat are not established to have anywhere in the lore – the ability to detect whether a person will kill an innocent in cold blood.

On top of what Aaron has already said about listening in on conversations, there is precedent that the mursaat can read minds: the bonus objective of Iron Mines of Moladune, for instance. They don’t even need to be mesmers to do it.

As long as they were made clear with no deception, it’s a deal. Just like we help Joko reestablish his power and THIS had caused much worse consequence than the Mursaat.

But it’s not blackmail, the Mursaat had nothing behind the charr invasion, they simply offered a harsh deal and Saul accepted it. Why should he complain? He had his right to refuse it and he decided to agree it.

So, the heroine of Rumplestiltskin should have just handed over her child to an unknown fate, then?

Most people will agree that just because you’re in a position where you have no choice but to accept a bad deal, doesn’t mean that the deal is fair or that the person offering it is wise and good. I’ve been in that position myself. If you never have… then you have had better luck in life than I, and I sincerely hope that you continue to lead a charmed life.

Saul’s revelation was not simply “waaah, waaah, you did what you said you would do!” It was that the actions of the mursaat revealed their true nature. Whether he agreed to the deal or not is irrelevant – the beings that he’d thought were benevolent had just been shown to be cold-blooded killers, to whom he had effectively handed over control of Kryta. That was what he was reacting to.

(Incidentally, on the topic of Joko… we had more reason to continue working with him than just ‘a deal’s a deal’. Chronologically speaking, most if not all quests in the Desolation happen before the Ruins of Morah mission – we’re working with him because we need an army in the Desolation that can help us fight Varesh’s, and Joko’s it.)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Slowpoke, over against anything that you could possibly say, Saul’s reaction strongly suggests otherwise. That is the strongest piece of evidence against your argument.

Saul prayed a prayer to the Unseen Ones out of desperation. His declaration that the Unseen Ones would determine whether they lived or died is not Saul praying for the Unseen Ones to possibly kill them. It’s an appeal to the theological concept of divine providence. It’s about divine intervention. The Unseen Ones choosing not to save them from death does not carry the same moral equivalence as selectively killing them.

Again, it’s not possible to stress enough Saul’s final epiphany on the nature of the mursaat: “And Saul learned to his horror that these new gods were neither good nor kind.”

This revelation comes as news for Saul. His reaction stands in stark contrast with his earlier faithful agreement. What caused the change of heart for Saul? Obviously the killing of his men by the mursaat. Their actions were clearly unexpected by Saul. That suggests that the terms that Optimus Caliph (and the mursaat) laid out were not clear for Saul. That suggests they were not explicit as per your fervent insistence. One can even argue that this was an agreement made under duress and desperation, built upon Saul’s naïve assumption that the mursaat were good and kind. And one has to ask: Do you think that Saul would have agreed to those same conditions a second time?

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Saul faithfully agreed. The Unseen Ones descended on the encampment, repelling wave after wave of invaders. The Charr invasion failed that day, and the surviving Charr fled back beyond the Shiverpeaks.

First: that’s Durmand’s flavor text referring to what we’d just seen with our own eyes. Where the two disagree, I know which one I’d believe.

Second: That passage says a price, not the death of his followers, and then goes on: “The Unseen Ones had made a promise, and they demanded their due. Kryta was safe, and Saul’s most devoted servants could continue to worship and serve their new gods. The rest of the witnesses would have to die, however, for they had seen the true power and glory of the Unseen Ones. As Saul watched his followers struck down, he realized his gods were neither good nor wise. Regardless of whether you believe the mission or the book, it says the same thing: Saul’s reaction made it clear he didn’t understand what the mursaat meant until it was too late.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

As long as they have enough chosen it’s not a problem.

Actually it would be. They didn’t need “enough” chosen – if the purpose was just to fuel the Door of Komalie, anyone would do. Targetting chosen was for the specific purpose of preventing the prophecies (a group of chosen would open the door to end their race). They needed all the chosen dead.

And their method wouldn’t work if they didn’t have the whole nation under control.

They just need to knock out Saul during the battle, then kill people or just let the charr kill everyone then save the day. Not a problem to them at all. They remade Saul to the person he became, why would they fail to predict it at all?

Most of those killed only arrived after the charr were killed. If the dozens of nameless White Mantle didn’t show up at the end, the mursaat would have killed 2-3 individuals.

And they could not predict the need to kill dozens. Maybe they believes Saul would be fine if they killed two or three individuals, but not so killing thirty.

Why does it matter to them? The White Mantle are just tools for them to get the chosen and keep the door closed. Other than that they don’t care about human business at all.

Besides the fact that you have zero support for such a claim, the fact that the mursaat stayed with the White Mantle for the War in Kryta storyline, and kept trying to retain control over Kryta at that, proves you otherwise.

Furthermore, the old records from the mursaat fortress in Ember Bay outright state their goal was to rule all races. Kryta is among those they wished to rule – it was, effectively, the first stepping stone to their ultimate goal.

The prophecy was just something they needed to be sure to avoid (and failed to). It was not the reason behind controlling Kryta. If it was, then they’d have left human affairs after the events of Prophecies, rather than trying to retake Lion’s Arch and by extension control of Kryta by killing Salma personally.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpoke, over against anything that you could possibly say, Saul’s reaction strongly suggests otherwise. That is the strongest piece of evidence against your argument.

Saul prayed a prayer to the Unseen Ones out of desperation. His declaration that the Unseen Ones would determine whether they lived or died is not Saul praying for the Unseen Ones to possibly kill them. It’s an appeal to the theological concept of divine providence. It’s about divine intervention. The Unseen Ones choosing not to save them from death does not carry the same moral equivalence as selectively killing them.

Again, it’s not possible to stress enough Saul’s final epiphany on the nature of the mursaat: “And Saul learned to his horror that these new gods were neither good nor kind.”

This revelation comes as news for Saul. His reaction stands in stark contrast with his earlier faithful agreement. What caused the change of heart for Saul? Obviously the killing of his men by the mursaat. Their actions were clearly unexpected by Saul. That suggests that the terms that Optimus Caliph (and the mursaat) laid out were not clear for Saul. That suggests they were not explicit as per your fervent insistence. One can even argue that this was an agreement made under duress and desperation, built upon Saul’s naïve assumption that the mursaat were good and kind. And one has to ask: Do you think that Saul would have agreed to those same conditions a second time?

They will decide their lives mean that he gave the Mursaat power to kill or save his people. Remember without their help none would come out alive, in other words, the Mursaat did save people even though they killed some.

If this is no clear enough, then the Mursaat had made it even more clear:

Optimus Caliph: “But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!”

They made it kitten clear and Saul had agreed to the terms, which means it wasn’t the Mursaat’s fault to cause the surprise, they had made it clear after Saul had called them for help. They did exactly what they had said in the deal. Why should Saul be surprised?

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Actually it would be. They didn’t need “enough” chosen – if the purpose was just to fuel the Door of Komalie, anyone would do. Targetting chosen was for the specific purpose of preventing the prophecies (a group of chosen would open the door to end their race). They needed all the chosen dead.

No, as long as the door is closed nothing will happen. We don’t see them expand their campaign to Ascalon at all.

Most of those killed only arrived after the charr were killed. If the dozens of nameless White Mantle didn’t show up at the end, the mursaat would have killed 2-3 individuals.

No, they were in the town to help defend, without the Mursaat helping them, they would mostly get killed..

And they could not predict the need to kill dozens. Maybe they believes Saul would be fine if they killed two or three individuals, but not so killing thirty.

Why? They are not morons, if they think it’s so important they got tons of ways to keep Saul faithful.

Besides the fact that you have zero support for such a claim, the fact that the mursaat stayed with the White Mantle for the War in Kryta storyline, and kept trying to retain control over Kryta at that, proves you otherwise.

Furthermore, the old records from the mursaat fortress in Ember Bay outright state their goal was to rule all races. Kryta is among those they wished to rule – it was, effectively, the first stepping stone to their ultimate goal.

The prophecy was just something they needed to be sure to avoid (and failed to). It was not the reason behind controlling Kryta. If it was, then they’d have left human affairs after the events of Prophecies, rather than trying to retake Lion’s Arch and by extension control of Kryta by killing Salma personally.

Which means the story of War in Kryta makes little sense or it’s just individual will. If the Mursaat wanted to rule the race, they could have done it many many years ago, why didn’t they do it at that time? From what we saw, they just spend their forces to keep the door shut rather than invading others like the Lich Lord had tried to do at all.

Aren’t you strongly against the Mursaat Tablets’ words? Now you are using it as your proof? That’s silly.

(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

First: that’s Durmand’s flavor text referring to what we’d just seen with our own eyes. Where the two disagree, I know which one I’d believe.

Second: That passage says a price, not the death of his followers, and then goes on: “The Unseen Ones had made a promise, and they demanded their due. Kryta was safe, and Saul’s most devoted servants could continue to worship and serve their new gods. The rest of the witnesses would have to die, however, for they had seen the true power and glory of the Unseen Ones. As Saul watched his followers struck down, he realized his gods were neither good nor wise. Regardless of whether you believe the mission or the book, it says the same thing: Saul’s reaction made it clear he didn’t understand what the mursaat meant until it was too late.

Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.

The Mursaat made the deal clear.

Optimus Caliph: “But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!”

Saul D’Alessio: “Yes, my lords?”

He accepted it like the book had said. If he refused the deal, why didn’t he stop or say NO to the Mursaat, but let them fight the charr?

Why should he be surprised, when everything was told clear? It’s not the Mursaat’s fault.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Those quotes aren’t him agreeing- not saying no is NOT the same as consent- but:

Maybe, just maybe, he’d be surprised because Saul believed that the followers who had converted to the White Mantle’s faith in defiance of more than a millennia of human religion, who were fighting in Kryta’s defense in its most desperate hour, who had joined in on a suicide mission in order to secure the futures of their families, their country, and their faith- maybe Saul believed these people were worthy?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Let’s make it clear.

Saul was just a cheater and drunkard, without the Mursaat helping him he would never have come back to save his kingdom.

The Mursaat didn’t go with him, it was he who called for help and said the gods could decide their fate.

The Mursaat didn’t deceive him, they made the deal very clear.

They said you have a price to pay, only the devoted ones should live on.

That was exactly what they did after the battle, kill off others and leave the most devoted ones. Before that they also kept their promise and indeed saved Kryta from the charrs.

What did they lie to Saul? It’s not their fault if Saul didn’t get it.

(edited by Slowpokeking.8720)

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Those quotes aren’t him agreeing- not saying no is NOT the same as consent- but:

Maybe, just maybe, he’d be surprised because Saul believed that the followers who had converted to the White Mantle’s faith in defiance of more than a millennia of human religion, who were fighting in Kryta’s defense in its most desperate hour, who had joined in on a suicide mission in order to secure the futures of their families, their country, and their faith- maybe Saul believed these people were worthy?

It’s not he believe they are worthy, it’s up for the Mursaat to decide, and that was what he gave them the right to do so.

If they are all worthy, the Mursaat would not have said that line and the “price” to pay.

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

They will decide their lives mean that he gave the Mursaat power to kill or save his people.

No it doesn’t. Don’t confuse your inability to understand the concept of ‘divine providence’ with an argument.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast

[Spoiler]New Raid story doesn't make sense?

in Lore

Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

No it doesn’t. Don’t confuse your inability to understand the concept of ‘divine providence’ with an argument.

Yes it does. “They will decide” means they can pick people to live and die.

After this, the Mursaat leader made it even more clear, and Saul had accepted it.