Guild Wars 2

Playing LS ep 8 left me a bit scratching my head, it was hard do take in that sylvari dragon minions and i have some questions that i hope you guys can help out.

• Why is the pale tree ( now a dragon minion presumably a champion) in the middle of the vision granted by the Omadd’s machine? Wasn’t that supposed to be the “eternal alchemy”? If so why is the pale tree relevant to the eternal alchemy , more than any other minions,say fizzy-pop, bubbles champion, he might be very relevant in the future, why not him?

• If the pale tree ( and Caith for that matter) knew that sylvari are dragon minions , why didn’t anyone told Trahearne, he is the leader of the biggest military organization that fights the elder dragons, seems to be a pretty important information and withholding it could jeopardize the pact and the sylvari as a race. Are the pale tree and Caith idiots? If they did told Trahearne and he didn’t take note of it , then that makes him the idiot.

• Is the elder dragon power and influence now linked by proximity?

• Who made the dream and why ?

• This one is personal ( it just rubbed me the wrong way) : in the priory archives why would the pact second in command hunt for a book ,that he had no idea where it was and was under immense time pressure ,instead of just asking a member of the priory that actually placed that book there( or had an idea where to find it) ?

Edit, have a few more:

• Why did Caith kill Wynne, she could just smuggled her away and hid her.

• Why didn’t Faolain didn’t ask more questions ,she new that Caith was a pacifist of sorts and killed only when there was no other alternative

• And how did Wynne open the cave in the first place, we needed the magical fire to get in there, and if it was opened before she entered how did she close it?

I’ll theorize one at a time:

1. Perhaps it’s the place the Pale Tree was planted rather than the Pale Tree itself. In lore, they say that certain living beings can, depending on the place, connect with the Dream. If so, perhaps the Pale Tree didn’t make the Dream but was simply planted on a place of power and is now the largest existence in the Dream?

Simply put, it may not be that the Pale Tree itself is special, but just happened to be planted atop something which freed it from Mordremoth’s control. According to a certain dreamer, Ronan probably did know about Mordremoth and the Pale Tree, so it isn’t out of the question that they decided to do something with it.

And, since we’re talking about something that is in the center of the Eternal Alchemy with the power to free the Pale Tree, I’d like to propose that this something is the Keystone Bloodstone. Hell, it could’ve been disguised as Ventari’s Tablet, or it could just be somewhere underneath the tree. Point is, it seems to be the center-piece to Tyria’s magic, so it might make sense for it to be in the center of the Tyria orb.

Wow, that was longer than I thought it would be.

2. They forgot?

I’ll just leave this here.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/Comic_Vine/retcon.jpg

Then why not show us that certain something instead of what’s on top of it?

They forgot?! Actually the most plausible think i’ve read about this new patch. loved it!

• It isn’t. The Pale Tree was the block to seeing The All. Hidden Arcana (E5 final instance) explains that the central orb is the world of Tyria (referred to as Thyria in ancient Krytan).
• Idiot Ball, a common theme amongst the good guys as of Living World.
• Yes and no. Those corrupted appear to hold no issue with proximity. However, those not corrupted obviously do. Mordremoth was sleeping until roughly now, so Scarlet and Aerin got corrupted by proximity and Mordy’s attention to them – most likely at least. The same will likely hold true for the other sylvari – because they’re “un-corrupted” (they’ve been purified via Pale Tree etc.) so they need to be “re-corrupted” which requires attention towards them (and likely proximity).
• Unknown, but my theory is that the Dream is a part of the world’s magic – it seems to be locational based, and those with powerful magic innate to them (Pale Tree, White Stag, Mordremoth) can affect it – even access it. It holds many similarities to the Mists as well, and it is not unique to all of Mordremoth’s minions (see Malyck, and no indication of mordrem being tied to the Dream).
• Idiot Ball, Mach II.

I don’t think the second concern is a case of the idiot ball. We know Trahearne is not a night bloom, and as such would not have the affinity to keep secrets. Plus, the Pale Tree might have seen him as a liability since he leads a giant army determined to destroy dragon minions.

Yeah, I really don’t understand why Trahearne wasn’t told. I can understand keeping it a secret from the Pact but Trahearne is literally the first of all sylvari. His dialogue in “The Newly Awakened” shows he is very concerned about the survival of the sylvari and prioritises protecting his own specieis very highly.

Why would the Pale Tree and Caithe not tell the man, who is almost guarantee to be sympathetic, that 1/5th of his army is very likely to turn on him if he takes them with him? Why didn’t they tell Trahearne so he didn’t go himself and risk losing his own mind? By not telling Trahearne, they knowingly allowed a large number of sylvari to fall victim to Mordremoth which is implied to lead to the Pact turning on sylvari, followed by the rest of Tyria. Concerned about Trahearne being a liability? Most of Tyria will be out to get the sylvari because Caithe and the Pale Tree kept this secret until it was too late.

Trahearne isn’t characterised as someone who would abandon his own people, they explicitly portray him as being concerned about their survival and Caithe knows this – he speaks to her specifically about doing what they must to protect their own.

Right now it looks like the idiot ball (it’s sad, the two biggest climaxes in Living Story are as a result of the idiot ball – better preparation and listening from the Captain’s Council and Lionguard could have saved Lion’s Arch, the destruction of the Pact assault force could have been avoided if Trahearne, Caithe and the Pale Tree sat down and had a chat.

I can accept the fact ( though very, very hard ) that the captain’s council didn’t heed our word since we don’t have much reputation with them ( guess killing zhaitan & saving claw island isn’t enough), but the pale tree and Caith holding info on Trahearne is unforgivable.

Well, here’s a personal headscratcher:

Divine fire. According to Ogden, Forgotten magic is similar to the magic of the Six. Not the first time we hear something like this, the Facets tying both to the forgotten and the Gods was mentioned before and hinted at a connection.

Tho now if divine magic is a dragon-corruption/minion repellent, can anyone explain the enigma that is the temples in Orr and some places in Arah?

Perhaps it’s only a specific kind of divine magic, the type that’s linked to Ascension.

… You know, maybe that’s it. That’s how the player base is going to protect their characters from Mordremoth’s corruption. We’re all going to become Ascended!

Well, one crazy thought to throw here…

Is the magic of the cathedrals and shrines tied to the Six? Obviously, they’re devoted to the Six, but they’re on the outskirts, not within the city itself. The statues in particular were explicitly made by mortal hands (specifically, Malchor). According to history, Orr was both the most magical and the most pious of the human kingdoms, so it stands to reason that the cathedrals would be blessed and enchanted by mortal priests as part of their devotions, and it is these enchantments that were corrupted by Zhaitan. There may be no divine energies within them at all… or the divine energies may have remained latent within them, safe from Zhaitan, but accessible to mortals in the form of skill point channeling sites.

Why would the divine fire be a repellent , they ran away when we opened the door, sure, but, 1 it could be the forgotten magic or 2 they were ordered to retreat (possibly by the Stick&Stones dragon). Still doesn’t explain how Wynne got into the cave in the first place.

Cosmin.8306:

Still doesn’t explain how Wynne got into the cave in the first place.

Wynne got into the cavern with the forgotten seal you received at the end of the episode. Where or how she got the seal, well that’s another question.

Cosmin.8306:

• Why is the pale tree ( now a dragon minion presumably a champion) in the middle of the vision granted by the Omadd’s machine? Wasn’t that supposed to be the “eternal alchemy”? If so why is the pale tree relevant to the eternal alchemy , more than any other minions,say fizzy-pop, bubbles champion, he might be very relevant in the future, why not him?

• If the pale tree ( and Caith for that matter) knew that sylvari are dragon minions , why didn’t anyone told Trahearne, he is the leader of the biggest military organization that fights the elder dragons, seems to be a pretty important information and withholding it could jeopardize the pact and the sylvari as a race. Are the pale tree and Caith idiots? If they did told Trahearne and he didn’t take note of it , then that makes him the idiot.

• This one is personal ( it just rubbed me the wrong way) : in the priory archives why would the pact second in command hunt for a book ,that he had no idea where it was and was under immense time pressure ,instead of just asking a member of the priory that actually placed that book there( or had an idea where to find it) ?

• Why did Caith kill Wynne, she could just smuggled her away and hid her.

• Why didn’t Faolain didn’t ask more questions ,she new that Caith was a pacifist of sorts and killed only when there was no other alternative

“What Scarlet Saw” was told from the point of view of Scarlet and she was taking Omadd’s word for what she was about to see. The interviews after “What Scarlet Saw” made it clear that neither Scarlet nor Omadd actually realized what they were looking at. It was not necessarily all or part of the Eternal Alchemy.

The Pale Tree rarely gives out information. She withholds information from the player at least twice in Living Story, and she possibly withheld information from Trahearne for who knows how long in the personal story.

Caithe has always been a slippery character. Maybe she did not want anyone to know she killed Wynne. Maybe she was so accustomed to keeping the secret that she could not tell it. Maybe she thought the Dream would protect the Sylvari. Furthermore, Wynne said her Wyld Hunt to keep the information from everyone. Caithe was doing the job Wynne told her to do. Keep it from everyone.

It was established that most of the Priory was away at the time. Perhaps the people who knew were away. Also, Ogden was in charge of this and he is amused by putting people through the wringer.

Caithe can only deal with problems by killing. She was never effective at solving problems by talking. If someone is not her “friend,” her solution to every problem is to kill.

Two possible explanations are love blinds and/or she knew full well she could not force the information out of Caithe like she could with Wynne. LS2 has demonstrated how futile it is to try and get information out of Caithe and Faolin knows Caithe better than anyone.

Caithe is also quoted as believing that Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt is impossible and he was a fool to follow it. I imagine she simply didn’t trust him or his judgment, which would explain why she took it upon herself to steal Glint’s egg from us and attempt to single-handedly save the Sylvari. Clearly, she was too slow. If she didn’t try to solo it and let us help, things probably would have gone faster.

We learned the secret anyway, so she should have just told us and asked for our assistance. But again, idiot ball.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

The Pale Tree rarely gives out information. She withholds information from the player at least twice in Living Story, and she possibly withheld information from Trahearne for who knows how long in the personal story.

This. I have the feeling that if we could just get her to talk we’d know ever secret ever in GW lore! But hyperbole aside I think that’s why she got KOed in Season 2, since she could basically have rendered large parts of season 2 pointless by saying “Yo, we’re like Dragon Minions, you should go get Glints egg from the Master of Peace and Caithe killed Wynne to keep the secret about us… so I don’t know keep a eye on her”.

But both Caith and the pale tree care for the sylvari as a race, withholding this information from the leader of the pact potentially doomed the sylvari. I still believe its a plot hole , a giant one.

Edit: Is it stated that that seal was Wynne’s?

I agree that this seems like a poor plot. That oversight from Caithe might make sense, but from the Pale Tree herself?

Maybe we are misjudging the Pale Tree, but my impression was that the Dream showed her so much that she gleaned all of her wisdom from basically being able to see and know more than any other mortal (assuming she is mortal, herself). But at the same time, have we tested the knowledge of the Pale Tree? Has the Priory or Whispers not taken interest in the plethora of knowledge she must possess? Or maybe they have and discovered that the only information she really knows is that of her kin and she is, essentially, useless to them.

The Priory was quick to pick Ogden’s brain, but not the Pale Tree’s? Or did I miss it?

Cosmin.8306:

But both Caith and the pale tree care for the sylvari as a race, withholding this information from the leader of the pact potentially doomed the sylvari. I still believe its a plot hole , a giant one.

No it wouldn’t be a plot hole, you might argue the idiot ball though but in this case it seems debatable.

Koviko.3248:

The Priory was quick to pick Ogden’s brain, but not the Pale Tree’s? Or did I miss it?

Yeah. Well the Pale Tree plays her cards very close to her bark. I think not telling people stuff was more of an attempt to prevent the Priory from picking through the grove with a fine toothed comb (by coming off as not particularly knowledgeable in regards to non-Sylvari matters) and potentially discovering the Mordy connection which could then lead to her being set ablaze.

CureForLiving.5360:

Cosmin.8306:

But both Caith and the pale tree care for the sylvari as a race, withholding this information from the leader of the pact potentially doomed the sylvari. I still believe its a plot hole , a giant one.

No it wouldn’t be a plot hole, you might argue the idiot ball though but in this case it seems debatable.

Debatable? This whole thing endangered the sylvari as a whole, first by placing them in proximity to mordy , second shaking the relation with the other races at a crucial point. This goes against Caith and pale trees characters of “doing everything in the best interest of the sylvari” . Makes no sense whatsoever. Not to mention that the Pact wouldn’t have charged mordy like that, which is a pretty big event considering that the biggest army that fights the dragons got almost wiped out.We’re left with sticks and stones now ( probably will kill mordy by swinging a sword @ his ankle , or even toe)

When Wynne makes here revelation to Caithe she simply says “Dragon” – she doesn’t say which Dragon and Mordremoth wasn’t awake at that point (correct me if I’m wrong). So it’s possible that Trahearne did know and think that by taking out Zhaitan he’d fixed the issue. We know which dragon Wynne was talking about but at what point did they know exactly which dragon?

But Trahearne would be able to tell the difference (he did study the risen in orr none the less) , sylvari do not match the risen in any way, hell they can’t even be corrupted. Even if they didn’t know which dragon was at that time , the plant minions of mordy would have been a dead give away. That is assuming he knew.

Michael.8562:

When Wynne makes here revelation to Caithe she simply says “Dragon” – she doesn’t say which Dragon and Mordremoth wasn’t awake at that point (correct me if I’m wrong). So it’s possible that Trahearne did know and think that by taking out Zhaitan he’d fixed the issue. We know which dragon Wynne was talking about but at what point did they know exactly which dragon?

Apparently people seriously need to redo the mission.

Let me quote word for word because I’m seeing this a lot that there’s no mention of it being Mordy that made them.

“We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”

The jungle dragon.

They come from the JUNGLE dragon.

Not the Undead Dragon. Not the Orrian Dragon. Not the Desert Dragon. Not the Deep Sea Dragon. Not the Rock Dragon. Not the Ice Dragon. Not even the Dragon. The JUNGLE Dragon.

Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuunglllllllllllllllle

Can it be any less clear that ArenaNet explicitly calls them Mordremoth’s creations?

I may detest the direction of the sylvari’s origin, but at least I’m not trying to claim there’s a lack of mention when it is very clearly mentioned.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Michael.8562:

When Wynne makes here revelation to Caithe she simply says “Dragon” – she doesn’t say which Dragon and Mordremoth wasn’t awake at that point (correct me if I’m wrong). So it’s possible that Trahearne did know and think that by taking out Zhaitan he’d fixed the issue. We know which dragon Wynne was talking about but at what point did they know exactly which dragon?

Apparently people seriously need to redo the mission.

Let me quote word for word because I’m seeing this a lot that there’s no mention of it being Mordy that made them.

“We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”

The jungle dragon.

They come from the JUNGLE dragon.

Not the Undead Dragon. Not the Orrian Dragon. Not the Desert Dragon. Not the Deep Sea Dragon. Not the Rock Dragon. Not the Ice Dragon. Not even the Dragon. The JUNGLE Dragon.

Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuunglllllllllllllllle

Can it be any less clear that ArenaNet explicitly calls them Mordremoth’s creations?

I may detest the direction of the sylvari’s origin, but at least I’m not trying to claim there’s a lack of mention when it is very clearly mentioned.

Konig, you saved me the trouble, and I think you’re falling into the same trap as everyone else and focusing on the first line, while not paying closer attention to the last line “We’re meant to serve it.” Now depending on how one wants to interpret that, it could mean several things, and one of those would be that though they come from the jungle dragon, there’s a chance they could/would not serve the jungle dragon. Yes, they’re meant to serve the jungle dragon, doesn’t mean they have to or will.

It might just mean that, as of now, they aren’t serving it.