Guild Wars 2

This is not a speculation but merely a discussion thread. I also added my own input and a theory in it but what I want is your opinion.
“…Malyck determines to head west, into Magus Falls, to find his people and tell them of the Grove, and to return with an army with which to fight the Elder Dragons.”
(quote from the wiki)

Seems like Malyck won’t have to go far to fight an Elder Dragon, now that Mordremoth has been awakened (in his own neighbourhood).
The coincidence here is so striking that it’s hard not to think that this is a subtle confirmation of the fact that Mordremoth and the Sylvari are somehow connected – at least Malyck’s tree – and that we will get this confirmation in the next LS.

I also want to add out that, during the sylvari personal story, the Nightmare Courtiers want to get their hands on Malyck at all costs because he is the ultimate proof that the Dream is a facade and that the Nightmare is the true nature of the Sylvari. (at least that’s what they say)
Does that ring a bell?
It seems another strange “coincidence” that Malyck’s tree is where Mordremoth is. What I am saying is that Malyck’s supposed tree and Mordremoth may be the same thing.
Being the Nightmare Court, for me at least, (already said in a thread I made when such theories were young and new) connected with Mordremoth as well, it would go like this:
The Nightmare Court rejected the Dream for their “true” nature, the Nightmare, as intended dragon minions.
Malyck comes from a tree which, apparently, hasn’t fully blossomed yet (or if it did, its children didn’t get in touch -yet- with the other great five races, either as dragon minions or friendly sylvaris). This tree may be Mordremoth itself. How Malyck escaped his influence (or if they are born as dragon minions at all) is impossible to speculate at the moment, even though one could say Malyck is free of any influence (again: if there was any) because his pod drifted away for quite a few miles.

Yet another thread on the very same thing as about a dozen other threads on the front page of this forum. Must everyone have their own thread for proclaiming the same thing?

Besides, how do you get that the two are related simply due to proximity? How is that at all relevant?

Glint was in the Crystal Desert. Kralkatorrik was hibernating in the Blood Legion Homelands. Proximity didn’t matter there.

Jormag was hibernating off the map to the north, but his champion Svanir was made while at Drakkar Lake (which we could go to in GW1 and can in fact still see where it would roughly be on the GW2 map).

Proximity means jack kitten.

Furthermore, that’s not why the Nightmare Court wanted Malyck. They wanted Malcyk because he was proof that they didn’t need to corrupt the Pale Tree in order to have the sylvari race fall to Nightmare – knowledge of him meant that they could burn the Pale Tree and start “anew” with Malcyk’s tree. His existence was basically telling the Nightmare Court (specifically the Knight of Embers since she alone knew of him, and only vaguely via her Dark Hunt) that they didn’t need to go through the troubles they’re going through to reach their goals. Nothing about facades – the Nightmare Court actually don’t preach the Dream is a facade, but rather that the ventari tablet is.

As to Mordremoth and Malyck’s tree being the same thing… No. There’s just too many points against the whole “sylvari are dragon minions” that it’s annoying to constantly repeat it all. And Mordremoth is a dragon, the image of his jaw shows flesh and scales. He isn’t a tree.

Hell, Mordremoth might not even be plant-based for all we know! Maybe his only influence has thus far been on plants, doesn’t mean plants is his corruptive element! He’s titled jungle dragon because of his location – just as Kralkatorrik was the desert dragon, and Zhaitan the Orrian dragon. Just like the nickname “Deep Sea Dragon”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Malyck’s tree and his people have already been destroyed/corrupted if they are really in such proximity to the dragon and that’s why he was separated from his tree while still in the pod.

Konig, I didn’t come with this theory off my hat. I was criticized by you already in my old thread, yet I have to see anything that disproves my theory. Shall I mention the fact that Ceara is clearly corrupted by Mordremoth, while in my very first thread we had a discussion in which you were ultimately going to say that it’s impossible to say that Sylvari can actually be corrupted? It would look like you weren’t quite right, by the last patch.

Anyway, " he was proof that they didn’t need to corrupt the Pale Tree in order to have the sylvari race fall to Nightmare – knowledge of him meant that they could burn the Pale Tree and start “anew” with Malcyk’s tree". This is correct.
However I did not point my attention towards that, but towards the general Nightmare Court-ish belief that the “Nightmare is the true nature of the Sylvari”.

“Proximity means nothing” for the aforementioned examples. Can you actually disprove this theory at the moment? There’s more pointing towards my theory, since
it is heavily implied that there is either Mordremoth’s influence (or one of his champion’s) in Wychmire Swamp.

About your last point, your hatred towards any kind of new thread (and trust me, I visit the Lore section DAILY. No one outright stated what I said) made you irrational. Mordremoth not plant-based? Come on. We really don’t need any confirmation on that.

P.S: I didn’t want this to be a speculation thread based around MY theory, so I didn’t elaborate all the points – I wanted it to be a short read. But trust me, I could.

Mordremoth was asleep until last week. Unless he has a champion running the show in Maguuma Falls or the surrounding area, he wouldn’t be more threatening than Kralkatorrik was in Guild Wars.

From what we’ve seen so far, sleeping dragons aren’t a threat, their champions are. We have no reason to believe Mordremoth currently has a champion operating in Maguuma up until now.

ArenaNet’s ultimate troll against Konig:

Make Sylvari Dragon Minions

Watch ensuing “I told you so!” ’s

So here’s my question. With the dragon that we assume to be Mordy sleeping beneath 10,000 years of debris, how did the inquest manage to corrupt their test subject? I can only think of three possible sources. The first is the cave guardians, which I consider the least likely. The other possibility is the first born that the asuras experimented on. The final possibility is Scarlet herself. Frankly, I’m at a loss on how they obtain the Mordremoth corruption.

arlowix.5039:

Konig, I didn’t come with this theory off my hat. I was criticized by you already in my old thread, yet I have to see anything that disproves my theory.

Depending on which thread you refer to, either you refuse to accept that the fact that sylvari are immune to corruption yet dragon minions aren’t is proof against the “theory” – on top of other things – like many do, or I was too exhausted of constantly debunking the “theory” to bother with it.

Malyck, dragon minion mentality, and CoE is really all the proof that’s needed to say “given all evidence we have and know, this is an impossible act and there is no support for it.”

But here’s another:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

“While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.”

arlowix.5039:

Shall I mention the fact that Ceara is clearly corrupted by Mordremoth, while in my very first thread we had a discussion in which you were ultimately going to say that it’s impossible to say that Sylvari can actually be corrupted? It would look like you weren’t quite right, by the last patch.

Really? Ceara aka Scarlet is clearly corrupted?

I have not seen any proof. And yes, I did all the content. Nothing proves that she is corrupted; ergo, it is not “clearly” so.

It is very possible that the voice in her head was Mordremoth or – more likely – a champion of him. But that doesn’t beget corruption. After all, Zojja and Snaff in Edge of Destiny was under the same kind of influence by the Dragonspawn but managed to break free.

Besides “it’s canon lore that they cannot be corrupted”: – though there may be an unknown fact we, as the word unknown shows, do not know that means their immunity can be removed. This is likely what happened to Scarlet – if she truly is corruption (something I won’t argue against other than the notion of it being “clearly” so) – but also serves as yet another point of evidence (or rather, argument) against the claim that sylvari are dragon minions – for if there’s something preventing corruption, then they are not corrupt in the first place.

arlowix.5039:

However I did not point my attention towards that, but towards the general Nightmare Court-ish belief that the “Nightmare is the true nature of the Sylvari”.

You’re misunderstanding them and how the Court was formed.

• Cadeyrn formed the Nightmare Court in spoiled rebellion against the Pale Tree. His final words to it were literally: "I will never be one among many, Caithe. Not even to the Pale Tree. I will make you hear me, Mother, like it or not. When I am finished and you are free at last, then I will be first in your heart!” Source
• The Nightmare Court’s original stance is that the Ventari Tablet alters the nation of the sylvari. Since then, however, it was altered and kittened up by the Nightmare. However, what they still preach is this: "The centaur, Ventari. The human, Ronan. Neither were sylvari! Why do we lend their words such credence? Ventari’s tablet shackles us. In its shadow, we’re slaves to an imposed morality, rooted in foreign ground and trapped forever. I say no, and so should you! Look within yourself. The Dream is many things. It is light and dark, love and anger, good and evil. So are we. " Source

The Nightmare Court don’t say “the Nightmare is the true nature of the sylvari” but rather “the Ventari Tablet has messed with the sylvari’s true nature” and even then, Malyck proves such a notion wrong as he’s uninfluenced by the Ventari Tablet but is nothing like the Nightmare Court. It should be noted that even in their actions of rebelling, they are not true sylvari the fact that they’re openly rejecting rather than simply ignoring (which is what the sylvari’s “true nature” would be) the Ventari Tablet.

In short: the Nightmare Court are skewed in their view and are obviously open hypocrites. To use them as a basis of what sylvari should be is outright foolhardy.

arlowix.5039:

“Proximity means nothing” for the aforementioned examples. Can you actually disprove this theory at the moment? There’s more pointing towards my theory, since
it is heavily implied that there is either Mordremoth’s influence (or one of his champion’s) in Wychmire Swamp.

I do not deny that Wychmire Swamp may be tied to Mordremoth’s influence. In fact, I was (one of?) the first people to make such a claim on the forums! However, proximity holds no barring on the Elder Dragon’s influence. Being right on top while hibernating has shown to hold no signs of corruption at all – see Primordus and Kralkatorrik in Eye of the North – until their champions become active and wake them up. But as shown in my previous post, champion location is irrelevant to the Elder Dragons’ location.

arlowix.5039:

About your last point, your hatred towards any kind of new thread (and trust me, I visit the Lore section DAILY. No one outright stated what I said) made you irrational. Mordremoth not plant-based? Come on. We really don’t need any confirmation on that.

I don’t hate new threads. I hate how people create duplicate threads on the same topic. Also: no one stated what you said? Sure, maybe not in the exact words, but…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/SPOILERS-Malyck-Scarlet-and-Mordremoth/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Sylvari-s-Corruption-Theory-spoilers/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Mordremoth-s-Messy-First-Meal/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Theorycrafting-On-sylvari-corruption/first#post3727289

All either begin, or fall into, the “theory” of sylvari-Malyck-Mordremoth relations. All you have is a different take on the same subject to the OP of those threads.

Narcemus.1348:

ArenaNet’s ultimate troll against Konig:

Make Sylvari Dragon Minions

Watch ensuing “I told you so!” ’s

The day they break their own recent lore is the day I view the GWverse as dead, and will delete all characters (not even bothering selling, just downright delete) and uninstall both games forever. They’re done so many retcons to their older lore under the guise of “false human legends” – to say nothing of the blatant retcons of other things like the calendar, or the facepalm design decisions like syncing the timeframes and having bi-weekly updates that clearly stresses their own developers to the point of being hospitalized (HINT ARENANET HINT!) – that it’s borderline ragequit worthy for someone like myself who loves proper and good storytelling above interesting mechanics (I can play the mechanically worst game ever so long as it has a good story to it; similarly, I could not play the mechanically best game ever if it had a bad story to it – though if it had no or next to no story like DOOM and Quake then I could deal). If they went and blatantly retconned their new lore as well, then they might as well not bother with a kittening story at all and just go Gintama on us.

DarcShriek.5829:

So here’s my question. With the dragon that we assume to be Mordy sleeping beneath 10,000 years of debris, how did the inquest manage to corrupt their test subject? I can only think of three possible sources. The first is the cave guardians, which I consider the least likely. The other possibility is the first born that the asuras experimented on. The final possibility is Scarlet herself. Frankly, I’m at a loss on how they obtain the Mordremoth corruption.

The first requires sylvari to be dragon minions. Of which there is 0 support for.

The second requires the sylvari to be dragon minions. Of which there is 0 support for.

The third possibility requires for Scarlet to allow them to experiment on her after her Omadd experiment, and for her to have actually been corrupted.

Here’s three more far more likely possibilities for you:

1. They took something tied to Mordremoth from Thaumanova
2. They used the husks that they got via bartering with the Nightmare Court
3. They got samples from Wychmire Swamp.

The first requires that Rotting Oakheart to be tied to Mordremoth – given that the other sectors are tied to the same elements as five Elder Dragons (you have a Branded Crystal-looking crystal in a cave; you have a aqua section, a vegetation section, a fire section, and an ice section) and how one section has Icebrood (multiple icebrood), it’s possible. The second requires the Nightmare to be tied to Mordremoth, and the third requires the Blighted to be Mordremoth minions. But those are far more likely and have actual in-game implications of being so unlike the 0 support theory of sylvari being dragon minions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t there supposed to be another Sylvari Tree in the Shiverpeaks as well? I thought I read that somewhere. If that’s the case it seems to me that the Sylvari race may be Tyria’s reaction to the Elder Dragons. I mean the planet itself. Malyck’s tree is near Mordremoth, the Pale Tree is across the sea from Zhaitan, and there’s supposedly another tree in the Northern Shiverpeaks (unless I’m wrong), which would place it near Jormag.

Personally I do think the theory about the Sylvari being Elder Dragon Minions does hold merit. However, I’ll also believe they’re a creation of Melandru as well. At the moment, being connected to Mordremoth seems the more likely scenario.

@konig
My first possibility on requires that sylvari be minions if the guardians were sylvari. No one knows what the guardians were. Accept you seem to think you know. Please tell us why you think the cavern guardians are sylvari.

The thaumanova possibliy simply sends us back to the original question, of where did it come from.

The husks and Wychmire seem like the most likely.

@Vexander: Never heard such a thing. Thus far, only two sylvari trees are known – the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree.

@Darc: By order of logic, if sylvari were dragon minions then the “terrible plant creatures” which protected the seeds would likely be such too. And you keep calling them guardians… but they could have been wardens (as in prison wardens) or the like, but I digress. I never claimed the plant creatures were sylvari. But they most likely are the precursors (predecessors may be a better term given the weapon usage? :P) to them.

“Where did it come from” doesn’t really matter with the Thaumanova in regards to the Inquest capturing them. After all, it’s where it went that matters as that’s how the Inquest would have gotten it – not where it came from.

For the record I don’t like the word ‘immunity’ to describe the sylvari and their interaction with dragon corruption. The website wording that comes from doesn’t say they are immune, simply that they die before corruption takes hold. An immunity is more like a resistance, it suggests something else.

To me it’s the difference between flame proof (highly resistant to burning) and being so vulnerable to fire you spontaneously combust when exposed to flame.

The word “immune” comes from a different source:

Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders

And your example isn’t a good one. Because no protection with being exposed to fire is still damage; but with dragon corruption there’s two outcomes: becoming corrupted, or not. In the latter, this is where the sylvari fall, it’s just that they die as a side-effect to their immunity (inability to become corrupted).

There are lots of intelligences wandering around without any protection from the dream. Why was Scarlet chosen?

DarcShriek.5829:

There are lots of intelligences wandering around without any protection from the dream. Why was Scarlet chosen?

Someone had to be.

Though in all honesty, its probably because of the machine she was attached to that let her tap into the universe itself or whatever it did exactly. It basically allowed her to see everything and how its all connected. The Eternal Alchemy.

I don’t think Scarlet was ‘chosen’ I think Scarlet, as a sylvari, is connected to something that say an asura or a human isn’t. Normally that connection is controlled, it’s “protected” (think of a pet on a leash). But Omadd’s machine removed her “protection” and that opened a “gate” in her mind (the Dream) that allowed her to move outside of her limited views, but it also allowed the entity to move inside her mind.

I don’t think it would matter for a human or another race if they had their mental protection removed because they don’t have that “gate” in their minds. I believe the sylvari connection to the Dream is more complex than we first assumed, it’s intentionally limited to protect the sylvari. Scarlet removed that limitation and that’s when she became exposed.

I would argue that if Scarlet specifically was chosen and it wasn’t by happenstance, then it would be because:

Mordremoth is trying to corrupt sylvari (via a champion), but they’re all protected by the Dream; Scarlet was disconnected from the Dream, thus became vulnerable.

Or alternatively, maybe Mordremoth can only corrupt plants and thus he cannot corrupt human, norn, asura, etc. that are in the Maguuma Jungle.

Or maybe Scarlet was corrupted by the Great Jungle Wurm (presuming that it is indeed a champion of Mordremoth), other sylvari couldn’t because they’re still protected from corruption, and no other race is around there (other than player characters which are by being player characters are therefore immune) to become corrupted (sans the grubs).

Or maybe Scarlet was corrupted as ArenaNet’s attempt halfway through the plot to redeem the utter confusing failure that is the character dubbed Scarlet Briar. After all, it wasn’t added until January, this “entity” stuff, and thus they could have thought it up easily in September and October to add it all in.

But honestly, other than being the main villain of the plot, is there a reason why Scarlet specifically was corrupted? And this is presuming that she was, indeed, corrupted. And if there is a reason, I would argue that Omadd’s machine is the core of the reason, and given Vorpp’s in-game-theory as a hint, the Dream is too.

Did Malyck ever return to help fight Zaitan? There were many parts early in the story that came back in the later parts, but Malyck never did. It seems like he lied about the whole “gonna rally my people to fight the dragon” thing.

@Konig – what would you consider to be evidence that a sylvari is corrupted?

Do we know that Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption or does the relevant information only indicate that they are immune to undeath and that has been extrapolated into dragon corruption?

@DarcShriek: Or Malyck’s having a harder time than he thought. Maybe there are local threats, or his people are going like Caudecus: “they’re not a threat to us, why should we bother?” and Malyck’s unable to convince them. Or maybe he was a Firstborn and thus there is no “other sylvari people” yet beyond a small group like the Pale Tree’s Firstborn.

On sylvari being corrupted: A sylvari’s physical appearance being drastically changed into something not normal – thus more than likely requiring a new in-game model – as well as, and this is the more important part, a psychological change to show fanaticism towards a dragon.

With Scarlet, all we have is some minor skin alterations of unknown origin and, truth be told, unknown effect – Elder Dragon corruption changes something to a specific element (Jormag to ice, Primordus to fire, Kralkatorrik to crystal, Zhaitan to decay and rot), either slowly over time or immediately, but in either case it is obvious (Jormag and Primordus are slowly over time, but even then – when Primordus corrupts flesh, it becomes encased in stone first before melting into lava/fire; when Jormag corrupts flesh, the skin turns to ice before the insides do – in either case, it’s obvious even with the youngest stages of corruption). Not only this, but that yellow growth only appears in the cinematic, not in-game.

And when we go to the psyche, the only hint of dragon corruption we have from Scarlet is “Tyria will bow to a new master” – which is very generic, and for all we know might not even be talking about Mordremoth (yeah, the likelihood of that being the case is extremely thing but hey, you never know).

@mtpelion: While only immunity to undeath/Zhaitan’s corruption is mentioned in-game, it was stated in a general case on the official website before the race and profession articles were dumbed down in its content.

“hile the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragon”

Though both Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik’s corruption is mentioned specifically, it’s mentioned that those of the Pale Tree will simply die rather than become corrupted. And while its wording of “those born of the Pale Tree” may hint to Malyck not being immune, it should be noted that this was written before Malyck was revealed so that’s far from definitive proof.

maybe the silvary are not direct minnions of mordremoth, maybe each tree is a champion and the silvary was born due to their influence on plants, plants are living beings… maybe silvary are just corrupted plants and thats why they can’t be corrupted again… who knows

So it isn’t really “immunity” (as in, immune to the effects) as much as it is “zero tolerance” (as in, complete shut down in order to prevent infection)? I guess that beats having to kill what’s left of your friends though.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On sylvari being corrupted: A sylvari’s physical appearance being drastically changed into something not normal – thus more than likely requiring a new in-game model – as well as, and this is the more important part, a psychological change to show fanaticism towards a dragon.

With Scarlet, all we have is some minor skin alterations of unknown origin and, truth be told, unknown effect – Elder Dragon corruption changes something to a specific element (Jormag to ice, Primordus to fire, Kralkatorrik to crystal, Zhaitan to decay and rot), either slowly over time or immediately, but in either case it is obvious (Jormag and Primordus are slowly over time, but even then – when Primordus corrupts flesh, it becomes encased in stone first before melting into lava/fire; when Jormag corrupts flesh, the skin turns to ice before the insides do – in either case, it’s obvious even with the youngest stages of corruption). Not only this, but that yellow growth only appears in the cinematic, not in-game.

And when we go to the psyche, the only hint of dragon corruption we have from Scarlet is “Tyria will bow to a new master” – which is very generic, and for all we know might not even be talking about Mordremoth (yeah, the likelihood of that being the case is extremely thing but hey, you never know).

I would like to point out a few things. First of all, we have no idea at all of the way Mordremoth corrupts (or, as you say, if he even does) but saying that Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by him is a denial stance towards what we seen ingame.

You know better than me (I know you do) that the reason that those yellow strains on her face aren’t present in her ingame model is just pure lazyness. Because by that logic we could argue that what we saw in the cinematic ain’t true: we could put in discussion the direction the ley lines went or if it was even Mordremoth that awoken, but we know this isn’t the case.

Leaving my Nightmare Court – Mordremoth theory apart, what I suppose (since that’s what everyone’s doing and I think my opinions weight as much as yours) is that Mordremoth IS able to corrupt, though he acts more like Primordus, by shaping minions of its own (husks, maybe wurms, and generally corrupting creatures not in the Dream, like the Wurm in Wychmire Swamp). Scarlet was unprotected from the Dream, and thus allowed partial possession of her mind. Partial because we know how MUCH Scarlet strived for independence and what a great personality she had after all (social psycho apart).
I wouldn’t consider Scarlet fully corrupted. I’d define her half corrupted, half manipulated.
Mordremoth was asleep, and that may justify why he hasn’t/wasn’t able to fully corrupt and control Scarlet making her a real, obedient champion. She was still her minion, but her great willpower allowed her to retain a part of free will against a still-dormant Elder Dragon.

EDIT: About your last mention of Sylvari’s immunity. How can we even consider how they react against Mordremoth if by the time that post was made we barely knew at all what the jungle dragon’s name was? We have absolutely no idea of how he corrupts, or if he does at all. I’m sorry, but that article isn’t as important for me as it is for you.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Really? Ceara aka Scarlet is clearly corrupted?
I have not seen any proof. And yes, I did all the content. Nothing proves that she is corrupted; ergo, it is not “clearly” so.
It is very possible that the voice in her head was Mordremoth or – more likely – a champion of him. But that doesn’t beget corruption. After all, Zojja and Snaff in Edge of Destiny was under the same kind of influence by the Dragonspawn but managed to break free.
Besides “it’s canon lore that they cannot be corrupted”: – though there may be an unknown fact we, as the word unknown shows, do not know that means their immunity can be removed. This is likely what happened to Scarlet – if she truly is corruption (something I won’t argue against other than the notion of it being “clearly” so) – but also serves as yet another point of evidence (or rather, argument) against the claim that sylvari are dragon minions – for if there’s something preventing corruption, then they are not corrupt in the first place.

First, the concept of corruption. Please, prove that corruption is always mind and body metamorhposis, and keep in mind we haven’t seen all the Elder Dragons.

Second, right, that voice could have been Mordy himself. But you forget one fact that is highly suspicious. If sylvari are clearly aren’t related to the Elder Dragon in any way, why bother making so many controversial and misterious hints all over the place, zone green and et cetera?

The problem with your assumptions is that you have a point and looking for a proof. The fact that Caera saw something in Omadd’s cube suggests, as Rata Sum ambassador said at some point, that she released something that was inside her all along, and that something was under ‘quarantine’, guarded by the, some would say, the Dream of Dreams.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Narcemus.1348:

ArenaNet’s ultimate troll against Konig:

Make Sylvari Dragon Minions

Watch ensuing “I told you so!” ’s

The day they break their own recent lore is the day I view the GWverse as dead, and will delete all characters (not even bothering selling, just downright delete) and uninstall both games forever. They’re done so many retcons to their older lore under the guise of “false human legends” – to say nothing of the blatant retcons of other things like the calendar, or the facepalm design decisions like syncing the timeframes and having bi-weekly updates that clearly stresses their own developers to the point of being hospitalized (HINT ARENANET HINT!) – that it’s borderline ragequit worthy for someone like myself who loves proper and good storytelling above interesting mechanics (I can play the mechanically worst game ever so long as it has a good story to it; similarly, I could not play the mechanically best game ever if it had a bad story to it – though if it had no or next to no story like DOOM and Quake then I could deal). If they went and blatantly retconned their new lore as well, then they might as well not bother with a kittening story at all and just go Gintama on us.

I have to say that it’s impossible based on the small amount of information that we know, but it is not impossible. I would agree that the Ventari Tablet wouldn’t be enough to “cleanse” the pale tree, and that the anti-corruption capabilities don’t count for squat, but that doesn’t make it impossible when we know so little about the race, the seeds, the guardians, or anything to do with their existence. Here’s a possibility (not a theory I expect to be real, but provides some connection to Mordremoth while making everything we know about the Sylvari remain true).

The gods come to Tyria and name the Forgotten as caretakers of the land, in this time they spread far and wide watching over the new creations of their masters, (forests, valleys, mountains, etc…). In their exploration, they find the seeds, and test them for draconic corruption. They find what they most fear, and in order to protect the land that they have been ordered to defend, they use the cleansing ritual they used on Glint in order to free them of the corruption tying them to Mordremoth. They then placed guardians (similar to Crystal Guardians, though likely created by the local plant life) to watch over and protect the now innocent and undefended seeds.

Aethelbert.1497:

The problem with your assumptions is that you have a point and looking for a proof. The fact that Caera saw something in Omadd’s cube suggests, as Rata Sum ambassador said at some point, that she released something that was inside her all along, and that something was under ‘quarantine’, guarded by the, some would say, the Dream of Dreams.

Exactly. Every single line put in the LS was meant to give insight to the real reasons behind everything. Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong? It’s clearly put by Anet to give us some insight…and foreshadowing.

How can one release something inside himself if that something wasn’t present since the beginning? And if that something coincides with Mordremoth or a darker nature of the Sylvari, doesn’t that make the Sylvari true nature Mordremoth/Nightmare/whatever it is?

What I struggle with, Konig, and the very reason I make very few forum posts is that it’s hard to counteract your (occasionally flawed) logic and assumptions (that you present as the ultimate truth), because your wording is very, very well put and elusive.
Why cite months or even year-old posts made by the Devs? You know better than me (again) that those do not matter as you want them to.
Take a language. A language is made of things used in the present. What words were used in the past hold no significance to the actual spoken language.
In the same way, things in the GW universe changed alot. Retcons were made, and old dev posts were contradicted.

korelg.7862:

maybe the silvary are not direct minnions of mordremoth, maybe each tree is a champion and the silvary was born due to their influence on plants, plants are living beings… maybe silvary are just corrupted plants and thats why they can’t be corrupted again… who knows

That is direct minions of Mordremoth.

And as Crucible of Eternity shows, it is possible for a dragon minion to be corrupted by another dragon.

arlowix.5039:

I would like to point out a few things. First of all, we have no idea at all of the way Mordremoth corrupts (or, as you say, if he even does) but saying that Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by him is a denial stance towards what we seen ingame.

Firstly, I never actually says “Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by Mordremoth”. I have been saying that it isn’t absolutely clear she isn’t.

Secondly, can you provide undeniable proof that Scarlet’s corrupted by Mordremoth? No, you cannot. Why? As you said: we have no idea at all of the way Mordremoth corrupts. Or for that matter, what his corruption looks like.

arlowix.5039:

You know better than me (I know you do) that the reason that those yellow strains on her face aren’t present in her ingame model is just pure lazyness.

At first glance, no doubt it’s pure laziness, however, they made her new armor. So the question becomes:

Why make new armor, but not – instead or in addition to – a new face, when we only get one of said armor pieces (thus far)? In fact, the armor piece we get isn’t even the same as the armor she wears, so they went and made two helmets – one for the PC, one for Scarlet. If this is a matter of pure laziness… why make that second helmet at all?

I think that’s something to consider.

arlowix.5039:

Scarlet was unprotected from the Dream, and thus allowed partial possession of her mind. Partial because we know how MUCH Scarlet strived for independence and what a great personality she had after all (social psycho apart).
I wouldn’t consider Scarlet fully corrupted. I’d define her half corrupted, half manipulated.
Mordremoth was asleep, and that may justify why he hasn’t/wasn’t able to fully corrupt and control Scarlet making her a real, obedient champion. She was still her minion, but her great willpower allowed her to retain a part of free will against a still-dormant Elder Dragon.

See, this is more or less what I would argue.

Scarlet was very likely to be corrupted, but it isn’t because the too-common-but-no-support “theory” of them being original minions of Mordremoth, but rather because she lost what was protecting her and the other sylvari from corruption (be it the Dream or something else Omadd’s machine messed up).

However, I disagree on the “partial corruption” – no dragon minion thus far can be “partially” corrupted. You either are, or you aren’t. There is no mid-way in this topic. And Mordremoth being asleep wouldn’t affect the amount of corruption – given that we have the Great Destroyer, Svanir, Drakkar, Glint, and other dragon minions existing with full blown corruption while their respective Elder Dragon was asleep. Even if you only count Svanir and disregard the others (sans some Eye of the North destroyers made by the Great Destroyer while Primordus slept) for being made during the previous rise, it is still full blown corruption.

arlowix.5039:

EDIT: About your last mention of Sylvari’s immunity. How can we even consider how they react against Mordremoth if by the time that post was made we barely knew at all what the jungle dragon’s name was? We have absolutely no idea of how he corrupts, or if he does at all. I’m sorry, but that article isn’t as important for me as it is for you.

The article, however, is not from an in-game perspective. It is from an out-of-game perspective. This means it isn’t a matter of what we the players know so much as how much the developers are willing to reveal so soon.

The only reason I mentioned the possibility of Malyck being not excluded from what the article says is because it’s a prose format of writing, to make it sound more fluid to say “those born of the Pale Tree” over “sylvari”.

Mind you, it is fully possible that sylvari wouldn’t be immune to Mordremoth’s corruption – or even Primordus’, Jormag’s, and the DSD’s (if any of those were going to be the case, it’d be Mordremoth and DSD) – however given that it’s talking about dragons in general, I would argue that until we have evidence pointing otherwise without unique exceptions like Scarlet (she’s a unique exception due to the Omadd machine experience), we cannot argue that the article is lying. Just like everything else in lore.

We know now that:

• It is highly possible that Scarlet was corrupted.
• This means that it would be possible for sylvari to be corrupted.
• But we know they cannot be corrupted by Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik (likely Primordus and Jormag too).
• So either something is preventing their corruption – something Scarlet lost – or Mordremoth is just capable of bypassing this zero tolerance.

Aethelbert.1497:

First, the concept of corruption. Please, prove that corruption is always mind and body metamorhposis, and keep in mind we haven’t seen all the Elder Dragons.

Every minion we have seen which is of intelligent level and capable of speech – be it of Jormag, Kralkatorrik, or Zhaitan (cannot list Primordus as destroyers never speak) – they have always praised their respective dragon fanatically – even if they didn’t even know the dragon existed in life. Edge of Destiny, pages 346-348 are good examples of this, but so is all the named dragon minions seen in Sea of Sorrows – and for that matter, most of the Orrian risen in-game – they never knew of Zhaitan while alive, but praise him instead of their gods as risen (and it should be noted that all Orrians were really devoted to the then Five Gods).

And I don’t think I need to explain how dragon corruption twists land and flesh, given that was the very first thing we learned about them other than they woke, they’re ancient, they’re deadly.

All dragon minions show fanaticism towards their dragon, and all dragon minions’ bodies physically change into crystal, ice, fire, rot (the corpses of those killed near risen in the novels are described as instantly turning gray and rotten, often rising again before they even hit the ground). Each dragon holds different personalities in their minions (Zhaitan is all about the lies, Jormag is all about the power, etc.), and they each corrupt with different “parameters” though they are capable of corrupting all things (Zhaitan primarily corrupts corpses, but via Kellach we know he can corrupt living, and via a Sparkfly Fen heart we know he can corrupt plants; Jormag prefers corrupting only those who had turned to serve him, but we’ve seen Sons of Svanir forcefully corrupting others into icebrood too). They each hold differences, but they hold the same three shared characteristics:

• They all consume magic and spread corruption.
• All of their minions are fanatic towards them.
• All of their minions hold an elemental theme to them.

There is no reason to believe that 1 or even 2 of the 6 Elder Dragons would differ from the other 4 in these three points, especially since for Mordremoth the first is already confirmed, and third is highly probable.

Looks to me like Mordy changed the sylvari to plants!

Seriously though, all known minions of the jungle dragon have been plant based. With Scarlet already being a plant, what could she change in to?

Aethelbert.1497:

Second, right, that voice could have been Mordy himself. But you forget one fact that is highly suspicious. If sylvari are clearly aren’t related to the Elder Dragon in any way, why bother making so many controversial and misterious hints all over the place, zone green and et cetera?

In Zone Green and Crucible of Eternity, all I see are hints to the Nightmare, not sylvari in general. You do not once see a non-Nightmare sylvan hound, or a non-Nightmare plant mortar, or anything else used by non-Nightmare sylvari there.

Aethelbert.1497:

The problem with your assumptions is that you have a point and looking for a proof. The fact that Caera saw something in Omadd’s cube suggests, as Rata Sum ambassador said at some point, that she released something that was inside her all along, and that something was under ‘quarantine’, guarded by the, some would say, the Dream of Dreams.

An in-game theory which only suggests that the entity was present when she stepped into the machine. It is not “all along” like people are mistaken, but that she brought it in with her – this only means that the entity is simply with her at that time already.

Now, if the entity is Mordremoth or, more likely IMO given his hibernating state, a champion of Mordremoth, it is highly likely, IMO, to be the source of the Nightmare. Ceara brought in the Dream of Dreams – and by extension, the Nightmare – with her into the machine. Therefore, by bringing in the Nightmare, she brought in the entity – should the theory that the Nightmare is influence by Mordremoth(’s champion) hold true; and it is this theory that CoE supports directly, rather than “all sylvari are dragon minions” given the distinct lack of anything not Nightmare.

arlowix.5039:

Exactly. Every single line put in the LS was meant to give insight to the real reasons behind everything. Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong? It’s clearly put by Anet to give us some insight…and foreshadowing.

Never said it was wrong. Rather, I would argue you’re taking a mile when a foot is given – so to speak. Though that’s probably a bad metaphor, so let me be more clear cut:

You’re taking something small to be bigger than it actually is.

Vorpp says this:

“Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”

So in short, what he says is this:

• The Entity was with Scarlet when she entered the machine.
• Scarlet lost some sort of psychological protection (thus she became insane – this was stated by Scott McGough back in August and likely has little to do with their protection against dragon corruption – this is purely talking about her mental state)
• He theorizes that the Dream is related, but won’t say anything definitive.

From this, people are saying “Mordremoth was always with her, proof that sylvari were born dragon minions!” but that’s not what Vorpp is saying. All Vorpp is saying is at that specific time, Mordremoth’s influence was already tied to Scarlet in some ways, and that he theorizes that the Dream is involved.

Now, onto you saying “Do you really mean that in that particular story istance, of ALL the correct answers, the one Vorpp gives is the only one that is wrong?”

Ever heard of a red herring? ArenaNet has used them before, it wouldn’t be a shocker if they did this again. Nor would it be a shocker if they decided to say “it was Vorpp’s semi-educated guess, and not concrete proof” no different than them saying the History of Tyria was human legends and not the actual history of the world.

arlowix.5039:

How can one release something inside himself if that something wasn’t present since the beginning? And if that something coincides with Mordremoth or a darker nature of the Sylvari, doesn’t that make the Sylvari true nature Mordremoth/Nightmare/whatever it is?

To question one: simple, if it was added somepoint between “the beginning” and it being “released.”

To question two: no, it just means that somehow Mordremoth got to Ceara. Nothing actually talks about the sylvari’s “darker nature” or “true nature” around Scarlet – nothing at all. And even then, the only ones who claim any “true nature of the sylvari” is the Nightmare Court whom are open hypocrites as I showed in this thread earlier.

arlowix.5039:

What I struggle with, Konig, and the very reason I make very few forum posts is that it’s hard to counteract your (occasionally flawed) logic and assumptions (that you present as the ultimate truth), because your wording is very, very well put and elusive.
Why cite months or even year-old posts made by the Devs? You know better than me (again) that those do not matter as you want them to.
Take a language. A language is made of things used in the present. What words were used in the past hold no significance to the actual spoken language.
In the same way, things in the GW universe changed alot. Retcons were made, and old dev posts were contradicted.

Firstly, I do not state my assumptions as ultimate truth, but rather as “the situation as we presently know it” – unless I’m stating a theory in which I always make sure to state “IMO” (or “I believe” “I theorize” etc.). If I ever do word it to be that my “assumptions” are “ultimate truth” then it was simply that I forgot to type a word for xyz reason. I presume, in this case, you’re stating my stance of “sylvari are not dragon minions” but the only ultimate truth I state here is that there is no support for this – which is true enough. All of the “support” I have seen for this hypothesis is either over-assumptions on rather general statements, or stuff that’s outright disproven by other things.

Secondly, all lore is relevant, regardless of age, until it is disproven in-game. And even then, it has to be an objective truth (such as us seeing the yellow growth on Scarlet’s face in the cinematic, or a Word of God statement from the developers such as in interviews) and not a subjective truth (such as Vorpp’s theory, or Thruln the Lost’s tale) to outright override the old lore, otherwise it’s simply two views on the same subject matter – and it can be that one’s right while the other’s wrong, or both are wrong while a third unknown side is right.

This sylvari article, for one, has yet to be outright contradicted. As I said, multiple times now, we only know that sylvari in, at the very least, unique circumstances (going through Omadd’s machine) might possibly become corruptable by Mordremoth.

DarcShriek.5829:

Looks to me like Mordy changed the sylvari to plants!

Seriously though, all known minions of the jungle dragon have been plant based. With Scarlet already being a plant, what could she change in to?

I don’t think we’ve yet to see a confirmed minion of Mordremoth, technically speaking.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Every minion we have seen which is of intelligent level and capable of speech – be it of Jormag, Kralkatorrik, or Zhaitan (cannot list Primordus as destroyers never speak) – they have always praised their respective dragon fanatically – even if they didn’t even know the dragon existed in life. Edge of Destiny, pages 346-348 are good examples of this, but so is all the named dragon minions seen in Sea of Sorrows – and for that matter, most of the Orrian risen in-game – they never knew of Zhaitan while alive, but praise him instead of their gods as risen (and it should be noted that all Orrians were really devoted to the then Five Gods).

You still tend to forget that there is six Elder Dragons, but you mention three. The fact that one minions – Primordus’ ones – does not speak at all ruins all what you trying to say.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I don’t think I need to explain how dragon corruption twists land and flesh, given that was the very first thing we learned about them other than they woke, they’re ancient, they’re deadly.

Do you have a solid proof that ALL Elder Dragons corrupt flesh, and that is not your far-fetched conclusions?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They all consume magic and spread corruption.
All of their minions are fanatic towards them.
All of their minions hold an elemental theme to them.

Svanir did not spread corruption. Means you are wrong.
Fanatic? Mind control/posession and fanatcism are two different things. They are more of a body parts, not a followers.
Perhaps, but wait, Sylvari already hold an elemental theme to them. What are you trying to tell me?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is no reason to believe that 1 or even 2 of the 6 Elder Dragons would differ from the other 4 in these three points, especially since for Mordremoth the first is already confirmed, and third is highly probable.

By your logic:
If Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik turn living beings into minions, there is no reason to believe that three or even four Elder Dragons would differ from the other and create minions from, say, stone or lava!
See?
We don’t have all the picture, so we can’t judge what is probable and what is not yet.

just throwing this in, but could Mordremtoh(’s champion) be or be related to that creature that is attacking the dream at the start of a sylvaran characters story?

from what i remember, that had a very dragon champion/plant like look about it.

Aethelbert.1497:

You still tend to forget that there is six Elder Dragons, but you mention three. The fact that one minions – Primordus’ ones – does not speak at all ruins all what you trying to say.

I mention three because we have not yet seen Mordremoth’s or the DSD’s minions.

And no, the lack of speaking does not ruin what I’m trying to say. Lack of speech does not mean lack of fanaticism. This goes double so since what I’m trying to say is that all dragon minions show fanaticism to their Elder Dragon – and, I forgot to mention, a lack of free will. And we know that the Great Destroyer and other dragon champions of Primordus (we’ve only met two – Great Destroyer and Destroyer of Life, the latter being in the novel Edge of Destiny) show intelligence, as well as function just as all other dragon champions do – serving their dragon without any fluctuation in this act.

Aethelbert.1497:

Do you have a solid proof that ALL Elder Dragons corrupt flesh, and that is not your far-fetched conclusions?

Do you have solid proof that there isn’t? Four out of four Elder Dragons who’s corruption we see is capable of corrupting both land and flesh.

Aethelbert.1497:

Svanir did not spread corruption. Means you are wrong.
Fanatic? Mind control/posession and fanatcism are two different things. They are more of a body parts, not a followers.
Perhaps, but wait, Sylvari already hold an elemental theme to them. What are you trying to tell me?

We didn’t see Svanir spread corruption, but we clearly see all other icebrood – including Drakkar, the dragon champion who corrupted Svanir – spread corruption. So I don’t see how this means I’m wrong since I wasn’t talking about individual dragon minions (though we know they all do, especially dragon champions – of which Svanir is outright called – as the very definition for being a dragon champion is being intelligent, leading minions, and spreading corruption) but the Elder Dragons.

Dragon minions show fanaticism in their speech. It may be induced by mind control (it isn’t possession as the minions retain individuality even though their memories and knowledge are known by their Elder Dragon), but the fanaticism is still there.

Sylvari hold an elemental them no more than elementals. And yet elementals are changed when they are corrupted. Though to be honest, i would not call “being a plant” to be an elemental theme. No more than being made of flesh and bone. To be made of an element is to be made out of earth, air, water, fire, and variations thereof; plant is not an element, it is just a different kind of flesh. After all, plants were turned into crystal by Kralkatorrik.

Aethelbert.1497:

By your logic:
If Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik turn living beings into minions, there is no reason to believe that three or even four Elder Dragons would differ from the other and create minions from, say, stone or lava!
See?
We don’t have all the picture, so we can’t judge what is probable and what is not yet.

Yes, I would say that all Elder Dragons are capable of making minions out of stone and lava – if they choose to do so. This was, in fact, my very argument – they can all corrupt things equally, but for reasons unknown to us chose not to.

After all, we see that very thing happening with Kralkatorrik, who corrupts lightning and stone into minions, and Jormag has corrupted mist as part of the Dragonspawn as well as bone and ice. Zhaitan has corrupted the land and waters itself as shown in the Personal Story, and in Arah we see lightning where Zhaitan was (as well as lightning in Drakkar Spurs) – even though he didn’t make them into dragon minions, they were still corrupted.

DjC.7039:

just throwing this in, but could Mordremtoh(’s champion) be or be related to that creature that is attacking the dream at the start of a sylvaran characters story?

from what i remember, that had a very dragon champion/plant like look about it.

It’s stated multiple times that it is a manifestation of your (the PC) Wyld Hunt made hostile by the Nightmare Court’s influence.

Caithe: “This poison spreads hatred and anger. We must fight it.”
→ Who caused this?
“An evil group called the Nightmare Court. They wish to harm the sleepers. Trust me, sapling. All will be made clear to you very soon.”

(When the dragon appears)
Caithe: “There! The poison has taken form. Quickly, destroy it while we can!”

(When waking)
<Character name>: “She and I fought side by side against a poison in the Dream. I saw the shadow of a terrible dragon, and I felt the Dream call upon me to defeat it.”
Mender Serimon: “By the Tree! A Wyld Hunt, so soon? And such a momentous task. To be a Valiant of the Wyld Hunt is a difficult charge. Bear this calling with pride.”
<Character name>: “I will. But how do I begin? One does not simply awaken and rush off to face a dragon.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare

(At end of lvl 10 story step)
<Character name>: If I may ask, Mother-in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I’ve been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?
Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon’s servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Heart_of_Nightmare
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Night,_White_Stag
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beneath_a_Cold_Moon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Knight%27s_Duel (Dialogue isn’t up on wiki, but it’s said there too)

The Shadow of the Dragon is also talked about on the sylvari page from the original Guildwars2.com article on them:
Only a rare few, the great heroes of their race, see the shadows of dragons and know it as a danger that threatens the world.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

And is still there, though in altered form, in the present version of it:
A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Do you have solid proof that there isn’t? Four out of four Elder Dragons who’s corruption we see is capable of corrupting both land and flesh.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, as they say. Should I consider all your speech a verbiage?

ah, thanks Konig, been a while since i played sylvaran story so didn’t remember all that.

would have added some credence to Mordremoth influencing the nightmare though… ah well. should probably catch up on my lore a bit more often.

Aethelbert.1497:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Do you have solid proof that there isn’t? Four out of four Elder Dragons who’s corruption we see is capable of corrupting both land and flesh.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, as they say. Should I consider all your speech a verbiage?

I think it’s painfully obvious that what I say will hold no effect on you, but I’ll try one last time to make my case:

Shortly before release, Jeff and Ree had a livestream interview during which Jeff stated that the Elder Dragons are, paraphrasing, “different but similar”. This isn’t the first time he mentioned such. But what this means is that there are similarities seen across all Elder Dragons, while each Elder Dragon holds differences from the rest. Jeff also said that these similarities and differences extend to their minions.

Now, of the four Elder Dragons we see a decent amount of, these are the only things that are shared amongst them.

Deduce what you will from that.

sheesh, people still wonder if the Sylvari are tied to Mordremoth? Scarlet made the link, end of story.

Scarlet made as much of a link to Mordremoth for the sylvari as Svanir made a link between norn and Jormag, or rather, as much as a link as Korag did between jotun and Jormag.

I’ll be waiting with yet another “I told you so”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Vexander: Never heard such a thing. Thus far, only two sylvari trees are known – the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree.

@Darc: By order of logic, if sylvari were dragon minions then the “terrible plant creatures” which protected the seeds would likely be such too. And you keep calling them guardians… but they could have been wardens (as in prison wardens) or the like, but I digress. I never claimed the plant creatures were sylvari. But they most likely are the precursors (predecessors may be a better term given the weapon usage? :P) to them.

“Where did it come from” doesn’t really matter with the Thaumanova in regards to the Inquest capturing them. After all, it’s where it went that matters as that’s how the Inquest would have gotten it – not where it came from.

Prisons have lots of guards. Only one warden. The creatures guarded the seeds inside the cave. The seeds were protected. An enemy would have them destroyed.

It still bothers me that there is no mention of the sylvari in history. It would appear that Malyck’s tree is not that far from the sleeping dragon. This makes the theory that “none of the elder races ever met the sylvari” unlikely.

History is written by the victors. There are no examples of the any dragon being downed by only one race. We know the other races fought all 6 of the elder dragons. There is just no way they wouldn’t have seen the sylvari while fighting Mordremoth as he is currently slumbering in the Sylvari’s back yard. As far as the appearance is concerned, if Malyck can look like a humanoid, then previous sylvari most likely did also.

As the sylvari appear to have wiped from historical memory, it is reasonable to consider that Sylvari may have fought on the losing side. They may have been dragon minions in the past.

Corrupted sylvari may be dying because the dream is killing them. The assumption that all sylvari cannot be corrupted is invalid as only sylvari from the pale tree have been tested. We must test sylvari that are from different trees before the conclusion that sylvari can’t be corrupted is valid.

DarcShriek.5829:

As the sylvari appear to have wiped from historical memory, it is reasonable to consider that Sylvari may have fought on the losing side. They may have been dragon minions in the past.

This is contradictory.

The dragons have always been the winner. So if they fought on the losing side, they would have fought dragon minions and be wiped out by them – hence the lack of records, as dragon minions don’t write.

Also, did you ever consider the possibility that they’re not mentioned in historical records because they didn’t exist in history?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DarcShriek.5829:

As the sylvari appear to have wiped from historical memory, it is reasonable to consider that Sylvari may have fought on the losing side. They may have been dragon minions in the past.

This is contradictory.

The dragons have always been the winner. So if they fought on the losing side, they would have fought dragon minions and be wiped out by them – hence the lack of records, as dragon minions don’t write.

Also, did you ever consider the possibility that they’re not mentioned in historical records because they didn’t exist in history?

Well, there’s also the point where the sylvari are blatant copies of humanity. Humans didn’t start showing up until well after the last dragon war. If we were to believe there are still proto-dragon minion sylvari around from the last round, they would have to resemble the ancient races far more than they would modern man.

By stating a hypothesis that’s consistently presented as fact (perhaps because of how commonplace it is) has no solid support?

I may use syntax and vocab which makes it sound like I am extremely hostile, I have been – without intent – called an outright egotistical kitten. But I am not bullying people; I hate the theory, true, because it has been effectively debunked and all of its original reasons for being plausible having been disproven as support (not to mention how I view it would utterly kill the sylvari race by making a race that is already so much a special snowflake into an even bigger one – oddly, something that a lot of people complain about, yet at the same time want this theory – and would also end up redacting a huge amount of ArenaNet’s statements of their design philosophies – and in turn, kill the game for me; call it selfish if you want, to not want a theory to be true for such a reason, but if it is selfish then fine I am selfikittenhere’s nothing wrong with selfishness now and then, especially when it comes to your hopes for a story that had captivated you for 7 years when a good story seldom captivates you for a couple months otherwise). But I would hardly call this “bullying people”. After all, do I call people idiots? Do I insult them? NO! I may act hostile, or better description would be angry (sorry, I have anger management issues – tis a kitten when combined with my chronic depression), but I am not insulting let alone bullying!

Being someone who was bullied as a kid – one amongst thousands sadly – I actually go out of my way to ensure I am not intrusive on people as much as I can. Perhaps the forums is one of the few places I may not do so.

But whatever, I shouldn’t need to defend myself to others.

I’m sure that even if I didn’t touch this subject with a 100 foot pole, people would still hate and insult me just as you and kta seem to do, and just had done. After all, I know people who have reported me and flew off their handle for me correcting – with sources – their misknowledge on the lore.

Your posts often come off as harsh and disrespectful.

To state it simply, the theory has not been debunked. It may have been to your satisfaction, but many of us have different opinions and disagree with several of your interpretations. It’s one thing to correct knowledge of the lore, it’s another to impose your interpretation of that lore.

As for your anger, I suggest you let it go and respect other people’s viewpoints. That are some very valid points in this thread and others that you have rudely dismissed.

In short, discussion of lore should be fun. You are sucking all the fun out of this forum and intimidating others from sharing their ideas.

Honestly, DaShi, if people stopped stating their theories as if a fact, and made new threads consistently on it, I doubt I’d be upset over it.

Though my anger isn’t so much at the posters nor the theory (perhaps the consistency of the repetition of it being brought up), but what it’d do to the story.

As to it not being debunked to others’ satisfaction… well, I find that people will choose to disbelieve facts even presented in their face – and for the record, I’m not talking specifically about this case, but in general. Try talking to a hardcore republican about how good a democratic senator is, even provide facts for what the senator has done. Chances are, the republican wouldn’t give an opossum’s kitten and think that all democrates are ruining the nation.

To me, the same situation is why people like Darc are so seemingly vehemently denying that the theory is anything but a fact.

If I am “sucking all the fun” out of lore discussions because I’m trying to remind people of what’s fact and what isn’t fact, then sorry. Guess no one will be happy unless I were to pack bags and leave? Very well then. Perhaps, just perhaps, I shall given how this is far from the first time kitten like this came up, even when I am playing nice (then again, if I weren’t, there wouldn’t really be room for much discussion and at such a point I very may would be bullying and destroying the fun of it all).

For what it’s worth, the lore forum is also where people go to become better informed about the lore. Vigorous debate of “theories” (too much of these debates are about semantics) – even if it comes across as harsh or disrespectful – is a big part of why I come here. You hear the saying, if you want the right answer on the internet post the wrong one and people will correct you – that’s part of why I like the forums, you get to be wrong and have other people in the community discuss the correct answer. I actually look forward to certain member’s posts on this forum (not on this specific topic – any regular readers are tired of this theory from most angles) because as unfriendly as they can be, they are usually well sourced and come from a firm grasp on the lore that very few of us possess (including many people at ArenaNet).

Let’s try not to make this personal.

DaShi, please do not make this worse by involving random personal issues. In fact, it makes you look lIke the Internet troll / bully.

I’ve been a long time fan of GW lore ever since reading up my first article on the Guild Wars (1) wiki, Urgoz’s Warren, and loved lore, loved seeing the debates in the GW guru Lore section.
I’ve known (“lurked” LOL) some of Konig’s post in both GW wiki and Guru, because mostly, they were backed by proof, something that is severely lacking in some theories. By all means, speculate all you want in the Trading Post and make thousands, but as my English teacher would say, “Your thesis and theories are nothing without evidence”

Back to the topic, I whole heartedly disagree with the theory of Sylvari being initially corrupted, only saved by the Pale Tree. I see little evidence and a whole lot of speculation.

I am getting a little tired of all the retcons Anet has done though. Retcon godly powers from the 5/6 Gods, retcon bloodstone, retcon calendar, retcon everywhere!

This theory may actually be plausible because of retcon galore that the writers seem to be doing. Heck, sometimes I wonder, am I playing a sequel to Guild Wars?

In fact, I believe in the crazy wacko theory that the Sylvari are the “White Blood Cells” Tyria utilized to counteract Dragon corruption. Maybe it’s because I have a background in medicine lol.