Guild Wars 2

When open-lore which everyone can see is presented very poorly, hidden lore is just awesome, with conspiracy and stuff.

As example – SAB, Jenie and one weird science machine which activate only if you have code from Jenie in SAB which i will never knew if not WoodenPotato (i really hate playing SAB, but it is hide important part of lore)

WoodenPotato explain better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Q9iAx_8Wk

I didn’t say A-net shouldn’t hide everything, this would be unfair to peoples who like investigate and stuff

It’s called having multiple layers to a story. Everyone can see what is on the surface while those who want to can look for more.

And this is a good example about how todays gamers are lazy.
They want/“need” everything pushed into their faces in order to see it.

If you go out in the real world, would you know everything about the place you visited without “working” to find out about it?

lordkrall.7241:

And this is a good example about how todays gamers are lazy.
They want/“need” everything pushed into their faces in order to see it.

If you go out in the real world, would you know everything about the place you visited without “working” to find out about it?

Indeed

Hidden lore is good.

Lore out of the game is… not so good.

Important lore that’s hidden is… not so good.

Important lore that’s out of the game is bad.

Let’s take Nightfall for example: In it, you learn that the one behind Prophecies and Factions was Abaddon pulling strings. You find this out in Gate of Madness, where you see a return of Khilbron and Shiro. But you don’t really get why they’re there. In some side-quests, three of four of which are began in outposts (Gate of Fear, Gate of Secrets, and Domain of Pain), you get more details about it – titans whom the charr worship work for Abaddon, Terrick who converted Khilbron into a follower of Abaddon was a demonic agent, as was the Fortune Teller who made Shiro go mad.

This is an excellent case of “hidden important lore” – it’s not in the main story, but you get hints of it in the main story, and it’s not terribly hard to fine it in the side content.

Another good example is Relkyss the Broken – a forgotten who tells you everything about the RoT’s side of Prophecies’ titan invasion and Dhuum who invaded the Dragon Festival in 2006. And in Gate of Pain’s cinematic, it gets confirmed that Abaddon was behind the invasion of Tomb of the Primeval Kings too; a mere side comment of an old event.

Those are good cases, not handed to players, but isn’t hidden within a NPC dialogue that you have to talk to during a very particular place within a non-repeating personal story (yes, side quests weren’t repeating, but their lore wasn’t hidden in talking to an NPC at a very specific step; it was placed at the top of the screen). The GW2 equivilant of lore from quests is “We need to hold this ground!” “Come follow me!” “I need more siege engine parts!” etc. etc. during dynamic events. No lore, just instructions – that’s what the top left UI box is for.

Off the top of my head, there is only one dynamic event that functions how I think far far more should and need to: Escort Historian Vermoth to the Altar of Tempests and following ones, where you get spoken lines regarding some lore about a festival held to honor Dwayna and Malchor.

I think the main problem is that ArenaNet put too much focus in voicing lines, that now players expect all the information to be voiced, and nothing to be within those dialogue boxes when talking to NPCs.

Edit: For clarity since I rambled, I like hidden lore. It’s just that Anet’s not giving enough lore upfront to show people that there is lore. And Anet’s advertising has given people a wrong impression for how they present things (thinking back now… how much of the manifesto trailer held true, I wonder?).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think the main problem is that ArenaNet put too much focus in voicing lines, that now players expect all the information to be voiced, and nothing to be within those dialogue boxes when talking to NPCs.

It goes beyond that.
By depending so much on spoken dialogue, and thus voice actors, they’re going to be limited by how much recording they can afford to put in.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

A very good post about hidden lore

However, I’d like to argue that all of those abbadon connections were retcons invented specifically for Nightfall, to add credibility to there sudden having been added a fallen sixth god to the lore, and so they could put Shiro and the Lich in a mission just to bulk of the street cred of the new villain.

Honestly, I wish they hadn’t done that. The lore was far more interesting when people had motivations that weren’t just “oh right, because an evil god told them to.”

You know, just like how Charr were put in a retcon blender for GW2.

Nightfall was a great story, but it could have been the same great story without making abby an apperantly important ex-diety that we hadn’t heard about until that moment.

The Charr could have been the same great race in GW2 without retconning them in to having been responsible for Orr.

The Aetherblades could have been an even better enemy group if they weren’t just pawns of some Act 1 villain.

List goes on and on like this.

The lore team has over the years developed the disturbing habit of consolidating evil because it’s easier to explain in short sentances, which takes all the mirth and interest out of evil. Heck, When they decided ancient dragons were a thing they didn’t even bother “oh, they just wake up and detroy stuff… no reason, it’s just their thing.”

Evil for Evil’s sake is a bit uninteresting. You can’t empathize with it, you can’t feel sorry for it, and you can’t question your own moral fitness when you fight it. You just kill it while eating chips and talking about what happenned on TV last night.

They should have cut scenes showing dialogues between villains to villains. The players can learn so much of the lore from them.

Like the cinematics of Varesh and her generals in Nightfall, or the random cinematic of the Lich Lord in Prophecies? Or the flash-backs to Shiro and the Fortune Teller in Factions? The only game that did not attempt to give it’s enemies more character was Eye of the North…

PopeUrban.2578:

However, I’d like to argue that all of those abbadon connections were retcons invented specifically for Nightfall, to add credibility to there sudden having been added a fallen sixth god to the lore, and so they could put Shiro and the Lich in a mission just to bulk of the street cred of the new villain.

Honestly, I wish they hadn’t done that. The lore was far more interesting when people had motivations that weren’t just “oh right, because an evil god told them to.”

You know, just like how Charr were put in a retcon blender for GW2.

Nightfall was a great story, but it could have been the same great story without making abby an apperantly important ex-diety that we hadn’t heard about until that moment.

I’ll have to agree with that. Abaddon felt a bit jammed in at the last minute lore-wise to me. Then they patched him in quickly by saying he was behind all the bad stuff previously. It was very irksome.

I would have personally preferred if they kept Varesh as the main antagonist. Just have Abaddon be dead, with his powers imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, and she was enacting Nightfall to get access to the RoT and to claim his powers as her own. Her mindset/motives would be, “No matter the costs, only as a god would I be the leader my people truly need and deserve.”

It’s a better motive than, “I’m a dark fallen god that wants to destroy everything! MAHAHAHA!”.

Avatar Rage.4369:

It’s called having multiple layers to a story. Everyone can see what is on the surface while those who want to can look for more.

1st layer- story not found
2nd layer – story explained on a website
3rd layer – if you look really really really close, use different resources for mere theorycrafting, you can guess some lore (speculations).

Gandarel.5091:

Avatar Rage.4369:

It’s called having multiple layers to a story. Everyone can see what is on the surface while those who want to can look for more.

1st layer- story not found
2nd layer – story explained on a website
3rd layer – if you look really really really close, use different resources for mere theorycrafting, you can guess some lore (speculations).

That’s more or less it.

The “first layer” is the main storyline, in regards to the so-called “Living World” that just means breadcrumbs. The “second layer” is additional content, which has even less lore. The “third layer” is the website short story, which is very small as well. The “fourth layer” are interviews, which are the meatiest bits at the moment. The “final layer” is “we’ll get to it in the future” – With love, ArenaNet.

Consider me unimpressed.

Erukk.1408:

PopeUrban.2578:

However, I’d like to argue that all of those abbadon connections were retcons invented specifically for Nightfall, to add credibility to there sudden having been added a fallen sixth god to the lore, and so they could put Shiro and the Lich in a mission just to bulk of the street cred of the new villain.

Honestly, I wish they hadn’t done that. The lore was far more interesting when people had motivations that weren’t just “oh right, because an evil god told them to.”

You know, just like how Charr were put in a retcon blender for GW2.

Nightfall was a great story, but it could have been the same great story without making abby an apperantly important ex-diety that we hadn’t heard about until that moment.

I’ll have to agree with that. Abaddon felt a bit jammed in at the last minute lore-wise to me. Then they patched him in quickly by saying he was behind all the bad stuff previously. It was very irksome.

I would have personally preferred if they kept Varesh as the main antagonist. Just have Abaddon be dead, with his powers imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, and she was enacting Nightfall to get access to the RoT and to claim his powers as her own. Her mindset/motives would be, “No matter the costs, only as a god would I be the leader my people truly need and deserve.”

It’s a better motive than, “I’m a dark fallen god that wants to destroy everything! MAHAHAHA!”.

You two and I must have played different games then. Because Abaddon was far more than that.

Lostwingman.5034:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think the main problem is that ArenaNet put too much focus in voicing lines, that now players expect all the information to be voiced, and nothing to be within those dialogue boxes when talking to NPCs.

It goes beyond that.
By depending so much on spoken dialogue, and thus voice actors, they’re going to be limited by how much recording they can afford to put in.

Yes. And this affects both lore/story presentation and especially player involvement, since our lines require ten voice actors. That is why the player character essentially does not exist in the living story.

The obsession with voice acting is definitely making games more shallow because of the costs involved. Don’t get me wrong, a good voice actor can do amazing things, but if there’s no character- and lore-depth and no RP opportunities, it’s all just fancy bells and whistles but no substance.

Also, very good points about why hiding lore, especially out-of-game, is bad.

Abaddon wasn’t much more than that.

He was a big evil floating ball of energy that was playing puppet master with the events of the world. Once he got the ball rolling with the Jade Wind, the Searing, and the Cataclysm, he had Varesh start the rituals to start the Nightfall. Which is the event that leads to his complete reformation, though he only was able to get to a big evil floating head and hands stage, and destroy Tyria by basically reforming it into Realm of Torment 2.0.

I would let all my arguments against him slide if we actually knew he existed before Nightfall. Instead, we got a surprise “big bad behind everything”, and his previously nonexistence was explained away with, “Well… he was erased from history…”. Then he got quickly patched into Prophecies and Factions lore with secondary quests, saying he was secretly behind most of the major bad events all throughout history.

Dare I bring up the subject, but at least Scarlet was hinted at being behind most of the events in the LS, before they revealed her. Abaddon was thrown at us from out of the blue.

Also, Abaddon never said anything throughout the whole game. So he would be a dark fallen god out to destroy the world. “….”

Erukk.1408:

Abaddon wasn’t much more than that.

He was a big evil floating ball of energy that was playing puppet master with the events of the world. Once he got the ball rolling with the Jade Wind, the Searing, and the Cataclysm, he had Varesh start the rituals to start the Nightfall. Which is the event that leads to his complete reformation, though he only was able to get to a big evil floating head and hands stage, and destroy Tyria by basically reforming it into Realm of Torment 2.0.

I would let all my arguments against him slide if we actually knew he existed before Nightfall. Instead, we got a surprise “big bad behind everything”, and his previously nonexistence was explained away with, “Well… he was erased from history…”. Then he got quickly patched into Prophecies and Factions lore with secondary quests, saying he was secretly behind most of the major bad events all throughout history.

Dare I bring up the subject, but at least Scarlet was hinted at being behind most of the events in the LS, before they revealed her. Abaddon was thrown at us from out of the blue.

Also, Abaddon never said anything throughout the whole game. So he would be a dark fallen god out to destroy the world. “….”

Abaddon was once a worshipped and respected god. He was the one who brought knowledge, magic. Then, other gods sealed his gifts. He got mad at them, eventually leading a rebellion with his own chosen army, the Margonites. They were defeated, Abaddon was banished to his own realm and his name got erased, because probably the gods didn’t want to see cults forming to free Abaddon for his gift of even greater power. For me, it totally makes sense.

Then, he slowly started to plan his return. His revenge. He took a large part of forming humanity, and his “creatures” forgot him and still worshipped the ones imprisoning him. He thought if he can’t have them, noone will, deciding to destroy Tyria and humanity.

He started to corrupt humanity from within, destroying half Cantha, 2 tyrian kingdoms, sinking the sacred kingdom of Orr too, and finally, unleashing the Nightfall, turning the whole world into his domain, where everyone worships him and the other gods will be erased. Varesh, leader of his cult was a great help for him. That’s why the gods wanted to erase him from history, to prevent cults like this forming.

If this is a “MUHAHAHAHAHA I’m so evil because I’m evil let’s destroy everything” for you, then idk what to say.

True, he didn’t say a single world, still had a much better story/plot than Scarlet, who is evil because she is evil and talks all the time.

Abaddon didn’t say a single word, still had a story, personality and a goal, not like Scarlet who is just evil and wants to destroy.

Abaddon wasn’t thrown at us, we had hints from the beginning of Nightfall.

He was thrown at us because there weren’t hints he existed before Nightfall, even though they went out of their way saying he was pulling strings the entire time. They had to add his entire backstory and motives into Nightfall, because he didn’t exist before that. The only way they could explain something as major as them adding a new god in lore, is to say “Well he is actually an old god. You just don’t know about him, because he was so bad, he had to get totally erased from history.”

As for the Scarlet thing, I never said she had a better story/plot. I said at least she got foreshadow before being revealed to be the “big bad behind everything”.

If I believe Abaddon follows the stereotypical dark fallen god storyline? Let’s go down the dark fallen god checklist…

• God leads rebellion against fellow god(s) over a slight or to take leadership? Slight. Check.
• Other god(s) defeats said god? Check.
• Imprisoned in a hellish/nightmare dimension? Check.
• Demon minions? Check
• Evil Cult/Followers? Check
• Tries to use evil cult/followers to release said god back to the mortal world? Check
• On said release, will he/she tries to destroy said world? I think warping it into his own nightmareish world, and your demon minions probably killing the population counts. Check

He might not follow the stereotypical dark fallen god storyline for you, but he sure did for me.

Erukk.1408:

He was thrown at us because there weren’t hints he existed before Nightfall, even though they went out of their way saying he was pulling strings the entire time.

….

• Abaddon’s Mouth
• Tomb of the Primeval Kings’s invasion
• Dragon Festival 2006’s invasion
• Suun post-Shiro’s defeat: “The world owes you a great debt, <player name>. If Shiro had succeeded, far more than the safety of Cantha would have been in jeopardy. You have been playing a game of greater stakes than you could have imagined. Someday, perhaps you will understand the true magnitude of the deeds you have performed this day.”

Granted, it probably would have made more sense to have it be Dhuum, not Abaddon, but there were still hints at “something bigger” since Factions, if not Prophecies. There was a foundation laid, it’s just that they didn’t lay much for it. Which was how a lot of things was in Prophecies honestly – and in developing Nightfall, Jeff said that he had to take single sentences from Prophecies at times and expand them into full-fleshed stories (such as who Palawa Joko was – his story started out as “an undead threat Turai Ossa defeated”).

The Realm of Torment was also named at in Prophecies.

Erm, I’d like to point out that the Living Story is to the Personal Story what Nightfall was to the Prophecies/Factions timeline. Abaddon was very much hinted at throughout Nightfall. Similarly Scarlet was hinted at throughout the Living Story, but she was not ever even hinted at before during the Personal Story.