Guild Wars 2

So bascically I was talking with people on the forum, especially about the Dervish and, therefore, Elona’s lore. A new type of profession occurred to me so I thought it would be a good idea to develop it here and see what you all think of it I know the idea is a bit similar to the Guardian, but the Devout could be more exotic ^^

Dervish/Paragon mix: Devout

Lore
After Kormir’s ascension to godhood, the Dervishes began to serve their new goddess. However they felt a weakening in the links between the gods and them, but they kept praying and using their skills wisely. Many years later, the land fell to Palawa Joko, and the Order of the Sunspears was scattered throughout the land. The Dervishes and the Paragons decided to join force to resist Palawa Joko’s will to control the land. However, due to the lack of protection from the gods, the Dervishes had no other choice… They would worship the fallen gods to ensure protection. The Dervishes and the Paragons shared their knowledge, they became the Devouts and tried to protect Elona for more than a hundred years. Contacts were cut between Tyria and Cantha, and the Devouts kept protecting the people from Palawa Joko’s ravages…

Abilities
Devouts have an offensive, self-centered role on the battlefield: they apply conditions while gaining the opposite boon, and damaging the ennemies with a flurry of attacks. But they can also support troops.

The Devout relies on Osmosis, similar to Death Shroud or Adrenaline. When the bar is full, during 10 seconds the Devout attacks twice faster with a little AoE on each hit. The bar fills each time a boon ends on the Devout, much like the advantages of the Dervish in the first game.

Weapons
They wield scythes, polearms or throwing spears and shields. The scythe allows them to rip enchantments from the foes, the polearm is useful for crowd control and inflicting conditions, throwing spear and shield are more defense-oriented.

• Scythe
  Their favourite weapon, heritage from the Dervish.
  1. Wounding Strike: Inflict 2 stacks of Bleeding for 5 seconds > Sweep: Foe loses a boon > Twin Moon Assault: Double strikes, apply Weakness
  2. Zealous Sweep: hits the enemy and ends a boon on hit. If no boon is active, +5 seconds cooldown.
  3. Cross slash: Ranged attack (600), sends a crossed shockwave in front on the Devout. Removes a boon from the foe.
  4. Radiant Scythe: Inflicts Blind and 5 sec. Burning to the foes around (180). Ends a boon.
  5. Chilling Victory: Inflicts Torment, Crippled, and Vulnerability.

• Polearm
  A new type of weapon.
  1. Slash: Slashes from left to right > Slash: Slashes from right to left > Triple stab: Stabs three times, applies 3 stacks of bleeding.
  2. Shockwave: Hits the ground (600), crippling foes.
  3. Armor breaker: Spins, hitting foes around (600), applies vulnerability.
  4. In your face: Hits the foes with the rear end (180, front), interrupts and applies Confusion.
  5. Whirlwind: Twirls weapons overhead, attracts foes (600)

• Spear and Shield
  Ranged weapon, heritage from the Paragon.
  1. Throw: Throws a spear > Barbed throw: Throws a spears and applies 3 stacks of Bleeding > Merciless Spear: Gathers strength to throw a spear that applies Vulnerability. On critical hit, applies 3 stacks of Bleeding.
  2. Holy Spear: Throws a spear that inflic Burning to the foes. Heals when passing through allies. On critical hit, applies Blind in a small AoE.
  3. Vicious Attack: Throws a spear and inflicts Weakness. On critical hit, inflicts Weakness in a little AoE.
  4. Burning Shield: Blocks the next attack against you, inflicts Burning in a small AoE if it was a melee attack.
  5. “Brace yourself!”: Shout granting Stability, Protection, and Aegis to surrounding allies (600).

Profession Heals
1. Kormir’s Touch: Grants a healing bonus for each boon. Ends the boons.
2. Dust Cloak: Stealth for 3 seconds. Rips a boon from 3 nearby foes.
3. Conviction: Grants Regeneration, removes two conditions. All attacks go on cooldown for 3 seconds.

Skills

• Motivation
  Related to shouts and support, from Paragon’s heritage.
  -“Go for the eyes!”: grants Fury to 5 allies.
  -“Never give up!”: removes a condition and grants Regeneration.
  -“We shall return!”: revives downed allies (600).
  -Angelic Bond: next damage downing the ally is neglected and heals for 10% of the ally’s maximum health.
• Rage
  Related to chants and direct damages.
  -Anthem of Disruption: interrupts foe on next attack.
  -Anthem of Flame: next attack cause Burning.
  -Song of Power: grants 5 stacks of Might.
  -Thorns: immobilizes foe and inflicts Bleeding.
  -Harrier’s Grasp: rushes to the opponent and inflicts Cripple.
  -Heart of Fury: attacks twice faster during 10 seconds. Cannot heal.

• Blessing
  Blessings granted by the Gods.
  -Abaddon’s River: heals nearby 5 nearby allies (600) and inflicts Poison to 5 nearby foes (600).
  -Menzies’ Madness: next attack blinds foe and inflict Confusion.
  -Kormir’s Eyes: next attack blinding you will fail.
  -Dhuum’s Law: next time you are downed, the hitting foe loses half its current health.

• Touch
  Touch Skills, they need to be cast at 180 range.
  -Elbow Strike: knocks foe down.
  -Crow’s Beak: put your fingers in your foe’s eyes, blinds them.
  -Plague Touch: transfers 3 conditions to the foe.
  -Test of Faith: chills foe if they have a boon, confuses them if not.
  -Rending Touch: ends a boon on you and rips one from the foe.

Elites
Mostly transformation skills.

• Avatar of Dhuum
  Transforms yourself into Dhuum. You wield a scythe. Weapon skills are altered:
  -Weight of Dhuum: chills, poisons, immobilizes, and blinds foe.
  -Touch of Dhuum: steals life. The more boons on the foe, the more life is stolen.
  -Reaping of Dhuum: four quick slashes, you dodge every attach.
  -Judgement of Dhuum: applies every condition on target in small AoE.
  -Summon Minions: AoE similar to Lich Form 5th skill.

• Avatar of Kormir
  Transforms yourself into Kormir. You wield a spear and a shield. Weapon skills are altered:
  -Leader’s Comfort: heals yourself, bonus for up to 5 allies nearby (600).
  -“Help me!”: you gain protection and regeneration.
  -“Incoming!”: grants quickness and regenration to nearby allies.
  -Maiming Spear: inflicts Cripple in a small AoE around your target.
  -Slayer’s Spear: inflicts Bleeding if the target has more than 50% health, inflicts Fear if the target has less than 50% health

• Avatar of Menzies
  Transforms yourself into Menzies. You wield two swords. Weapon skills are altered:
  -Dragon Slash: inflicts burning.
  -Sun and Moon Slash: unblockable attack, hits twice.
  -Savage Slash: interrupts and inflicts Confusion.
  -Decapitation: cross-slash your target, inflict Confusion, Bleeding, Vulnerability, and Weakness.
  -Darkness: sends a wave to Blind surrounding enemies (600).

• Avatar of Abaddon
  Transforms yourself into Abaddon. You fight with your bare hand. Weapon skills are altered:
  -Corrupt Power: hits thrice, removes a boon on each hit and inflicts a random condition upon removal.
  -Words of Madness: interrupts and confuses surrounding enemies (600).
  -Earth Shattering Blow: knock down foe within range (600). Cripples them.
  -Iron Palm: slashes the enemy multiple times.
  -Soul Tearing: removes a boon.

Profession Traitlines

• Tessitura: increases Boon duration and Osmosis charge rate (shouts and chants benefit from this trait)
• Ermite’s Knowledge: increases Attack and Ferocity (two-handed weapons benefit from this trait)
• Command: increases Toughness and Vitality (spear and shield benefit from this trait)
• Prayers: increases Healing Power and Condition Damage (Gods-related skills benefit from this trait)
• Mysticism: increases Osmosis duration (profession attribute) and precision.

This wouldn’t work for the same reason Dervishes wouldn’t work. Lore-wise, they would only fit for humans.

Asura: While believing in higher beings, them being bigger cogs in the universe, they don’t worship them.
Sylvari: The race is agnostic, and they would need proof of their existence before really converting to any sort of worship.
Norn: Already have their Spirits of the Wild.
Charr: Wouldn’t be caught dead worshiping human gods.

I’m not really sure how the worshipping of fallen gods would help at all either. Abaddon is dead. Dhuum never really seemed to care much for mortals at all. As long as they died, went to the Underworld, and they stayed in the Underworld, he seemed to be content. Also, he might go out of his way to kill the res’ers and necromancers of the world, since he holds no love for them for messing with his system.

Menzies, to the best of my knowledge, isn’t considered a god as well. He is Bal’s evil half brother, but his cosmic status has never really be answered.

Unfortunately for me, you are completely right It is true that I only kept in mind the human approach of the Elonian culture. Thanks for tour comment ^^

Wow, a lot of thought went into this. I wonder if all gods were referred in a vague way, something along “Blessing of power” would it work for all races?

Or just add scythe as melee weapon. And one-handed non-aquatic spear.

I’ve said it a few times in various places, but I think the most important thing in any presentation of a profession idea is coming up with a solid identification of what the playstyle of a profession is (and thus, why it would play differently to others). I can see why people jump straight to skill descriptions, but consider that when the professions were being originally announced only a handful of skills were revealed – what got people excited was not the nitty gritty of skill lists, but the high-level explanation of how the profession behaved.

Sure, it might be possible to divine this from skill lists, but it’d be a lot easier to understand and more compelling if you left that aside apart from a few examples and talked about how you expected the profession to be played. And if you don’t already have some idea of that before you start planning out skills, you’re kinda putting the cart before the horse.

My problem with it is the implication that all Dervishes followed Kormir post godhood, when they explicitly followed all gods or one in particular (for each dervish :P).

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Profession Heals
1. Kormir’s Touch: Grants a healing bonus for each boon. Ends the boons.

xD.

It’s like a mixture of Necromancer and Guardian, somehow.

While I kind of like that condition+boon conception (although it would be incredibly OP) I totally hate on any bars filling which inrease your passive mode. We have enough of that.

I like playing with resources, it adds depth to the gameplay in all cases (well, unless it’s a typical mana) and opens many trait&counterplay options.

The problem is, GW2 already have most of the general professions’ points included from GW1.

Engineer, in my view is a modern, not really good, but replacement for Ritualist. Turrets are meant to be spirits, kits to be bundles.

Guardian is a shiny example. It’s very oriented around boons, which are simplified version of Enchantments and it’s shared with Dervish Meditations. Many skills are also stolen from Monk, some from Paragon. So they actually included 3 in 1.

Now, there are couple options. I won’t say the name or the concept, but a mixture of some control/resource stealing/Backfire-like Mesmer, Heavy class with some aspects of Paragon, powerful skillshot skills like a variation of RoJ from GW1, and focused on support by absorption/reversing damage profession would be something new and cool.

Guardians are in lore Monk+Paragon with a dash of ritualist magic thrown in.

But as I said, they’re all about boons, opposite to Necro who is all about conditions. Sure, particular builds may be more focused on it or not, but boons are integral part of the profession, same like GW1 “Boons” were a part of Dervish play considering profession specific aspect.

Kalavier.1097:

Guardians are in lore Monk+Paragon with a dash of ritualist magic thrown in.

It’s actually still up in the air what else is involved. The original interviews (which, unfortunately, we haven’t been able to locate of late for citations) stated that it was primarily formed from a marriage of Monk, Paragon, and ‘other classes’. Sea of Sorrows confirmed the Ritualist was part of that, but talks about “Elonian protective magics” rather than referencing the Paragon specifically. Both leave the door open for Dervish magic to have also been involved.

I definitely think this concept could work in the lore. Guardians have a “holy” basis and their available to all races. Even though the Asura, sylvari, dont have the humans gods in mind, something would be a passion and they would be devout to whatever that is the same way a Charr Guradian is dedicated to, whatever holy things the Charr dedicate themselves to.

Guardians don’t have an universal holy basis, their power comes from a devotion to protect. That’s not to say individual guardians can’t be religious, indeed, most human guardians likely are, but it’s not the faith in the gods but the faith itself that grants them their power.

No, guardians don’t have any “holy” basis. Human guardians might, but that is probably more because they are human, not because they are guardians. Guardians draw their powers from the different virtues and ideals they believe in, and each race has different types of virtues and ideals than others.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/31/behind-the-scenes-with-the-guild-wars-2-guardian-massivelys-in/

Jeff Grubb: With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the Guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the Charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.

Eric Flannum: To me, the Guardian feels a lot like playing a caster who wears heavy armor. This is in contrast to what you’d typically think of when you think of the Paladin archetype found in many games, which feels like a melee bruiser who also knows a few spells. The Guardian also doesn’t feel particularly religious, but he does feel spiritual. What I mean by that is that the Guardian embodies certain ideals without ascribing to any one faith in particular, which is also a bit different than your typical Paladin archetype.

The OP’s suggestion, on the other hand, is for the class to worship the “dark” gods (or being in Menzies) to gain their powers. Which wouldn’t work for the races that don’t believe in them, or the races that don’t respect them enough to believe that they deserve worship.

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve said it a few times in various places, but I think the most important thing in any presentation of a profession idea is coming up with a solid identification of what the playstyle of a profession is (and thus, why it would play differently to others). I can see why people jump straight to skill descriptions, but consider that when the professions were being originally announced only a handful of skills were revealed – what got people excited was not the nitty gritty of skill lists, but the high-level explanation of how the profession behaved.

Sure, it might be possible to divine this from skill lists, but it’d be a lot easier to understand and more compelling if you left that aside apart from a few examples and talked about how you expected the profession to be played. And if you don’t already have some idea of that before you start planning out skills, you’re kinda putting the cart before the horse.

i think that if the dervish were to return as a playable class that it wouldnt happen until elona returned as well.

one way i could see how it would be played by all classes is that after all of this time the dervishes could have turned away from the gods altogether because they have abandoned them. then maybe they could draw their powers from the mists or darker forces of nature. their powers could still be avatar based either way.

if it were the mists, then their new avatars could be almost anything powerful from there. if from darker forces of nature then they could become avatars of more powerful elemental beings like dragons or the like.

of course this is all just guessing but this would allow other races to partake in the class.

To people who argue that it is a human-only profession, it should be pointed out that, as Cantha and Elona have be cut from Tyria, nothing coming out of there could be used by Sylvaris, Charrs, Asuras, and Norns, as none of them have ever lived on these continents.

I guess that, if ANet follows the path of “time march is on”, we could argue that Elona opens during year X, and the present things happen during year X+1, allowing transmission of the said profession.

If however they don’t want to have any transmission of a profession, we’ll have to stick to the 8 we have till the end of time, and opening new continents might bring only some skills, but nothing revolutionary. If a new profession is wanted, then they’ll have to bend the lore to make it fit.

Not really. The other professions from GW1 aren’t explicitly tied to the human gods like Dervish were.

Even then, you could still pull it off just cut out the “avatar of the gods” bit and replace it with something else.

What I meant is that there will always be a huge difference even if the professions are the same: how could guardians in Elona and guardians in Tyria have exactly the same fighting style? That’s the illogical point I’m trying to show

What I also meant is that, knowing the contacts were cut with different continents prevents any contagion of an isolated profession to the people of Tyria: who has seen a Norn in Cantha?

But indeed, humans gods could be replaced by dragons as stated, it would work the same way and could indeed be transmitted to other races

Not dragons… Why would a Dervish use an avatar of a dragon (especially a player).

Kalavier.1097:

Not dragons… Why would a Dervish use an avatar of a dragon (especially a player).

you are right. i was just throwing something out there. i wasnt thinking in depth about it. just that there are other ways around the avatar thing.

xerxes.3496:

you are right. i was just throwing something out there. i wasnt thinking in depth about it. just that there are other ways around the avatar thing.

I think that in those years the dervishes could have their faith in the gods diminished and instead went to a more direct link to the nature, like nowadays a dervish may use Avatar of Fire instead of Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Death (or ice) instead of Avatar of Grenth and so on, that could be a good “workaround” for the avatar thing.

Belzebu.3912:

xerxes.3496:

you are right. i was just throwing something out there. i wasnt thinking in depth about it. just that there are other ways around the avatar thing.

I think that in those years the dervishes could have their faith in the gods diminished and instead went to a more direct link to the nature, like nowadays a dervish may use Avatar of Fire instead of Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Death (or ice) instead of Avatar of Grenth and so on, that could be a good “workaround” for the avatar thing.

I agree with you both. I don’t think it would be difficult at all to get around the avatar issue. There are many avatar possibilities for devs to use if after all this time the Dervishes abandoned their faith in the human gods.

Simplest response is to say that the avatar skills were human racials all along, it’s just that in GW1 only the dervishes had learned how to properly unlock them. The rest of the dervish abilities really have nothing to tie them to the gods except skill names, and monks and rangers in particular were filled with references to the gods and that didn’t stop them from being used by other races even back then. Just because humans might name a particular spell or technique after a god doesn’t mean the skill actually has anything directly to do with the god.

xerxes.3496:

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve said it a few times in various places, but I think the most important thing in any presentation of a profession idea is coming up with a solid identification of what the playstyle of a profession is (and thus, why it would play differently to others). I can see why people jump straight to skill descriptions, but consider that when the professions were being originally announced only a handful of skills were revealed – what got people excited was not the nitty gritty of skill lists, but the high-level explanation of how the profession behaved.

Sure, it might be possible to divine this from skill lists, but it’d be a lot easier to understand and more compelling if you left that aside apart from a few examples and talked about how you expected the profession to be played. And if you don’t already have some idea of that before you start planning out skills, you’re kinda putting the cart before the horse.

i think that if the dervish were to return as a playable class that it wouldnt happen until elona returned as well.

one way i could see how it would be played by all classes is that after all of this time the dervishes could have turned away from the gods altogether because they have abandoned them. then maybe they could draw their powers from the mists or darker forces of nature. their powers could still be avatar based either way.

if it were the mists, then their new avatars could be almost anything powerful from there. if from darker forces of nature then they could become avatars of more powerful elemental beings like dragons or the like.

of course this is all just guessing but this would allow other races to partake in the class.

I don’t see how this addresses my point, since in the quoted text I didn’t say anything about avatars, the gods, or other races. Frankly, anything even vaguely similar to avatars are going to be elites, and with the way GW2 elites work, this makes them an ‘occasional thing’ rather than something that’s actually an important part of the profession.

My point is that what I tend to look for in profession suggestions is a clear explanation of how the profession plays that establishes that it has a different playstyle to the existing ones. Most profession suggestions, including this one, don’t have that.

Compare and contrast the following:

“Masters of mechanical mayhem, engineers love to tinker with explosives, elixirs, and all manner of hazardous gadgets. They can take control of an area by placing turrets, support their allies with alchemic weaponry, or lay waste to foes with a wide array of mines, bombs, and grenades.”

“Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.”

“After Kormir’s ascension to godhood, the Dervishes began to serve their new goddess. However they felt a weakening in the links between the gods and them, but they kept praying and using their skills wisely. Many years later, the land fell to Palawa Joko, and the Order of the Sunspears was scattered throughout the land. The Dervishes and the Paragons decided to join force to resist Palawa Joko’s will to control the land. However, due to the lack of protection from the gods, the Dervishes had no other choice… They would worship the fallen gods to ensure protection. The Dervishes and the Paragons shared their knowledge, they became the Devouts and tried to protect Elona for more than a hundred years. Contacts were cut between Tyria and Cantha, and the Devouts kept protecting the people from Palawa Joko’s ravages…”

With the official cases, in a couple of sentences, you have a pretty good idea of what the professions do and how they differ from one another. Reading the rest of the official pages expand on that to give you a pretty good rundown of what makes each profession unique and how they play with very few examples of skills.

The OP’s introduction, however, is entirely lorebased and gives no indication of how the profession will play (nothing wrong with lore, but it doesn’t always help in figuring out what a profession actually does). We get a brief introduction at the start of the abilities section, but the OP dives straight into mechanics, and devotes most of two posts to describing individual skills. Putting aside that if ArenaNet was to implement a suggested profession they’ll probably like to make some of their own skills, it’s a lot harder to figure out how a profession plays by putting skills together than it is if the author provides a summary of how they intend the profession to play.

Now, I don’t intend to pick on the OP in particular, since it’s the same set of errors nearly everyone makes – it’s just the example we have on hand. But I think people would be able to better get across their concept if they followed a system closer to the official profession pages. Limiting information on skills on the profession pages wasn’t just about limiting the chance of announcing a skill that then gets changed or removed – it’s also because people need to understand the big picture or minutiae like individual skills becomes meaningless. I’m trying to encourage people to give the big-picture explanation instead of (or at least before) diving into skill lists.

What most people forget is that the asura and charr do not deny human Gods. The asura say they may exist as powerful entities. But in the end theyre just cogs. Charr say Gods exist, but they use them as a drive to grow stronger.

Nobody denies the human gods besides the Sylvari (Which is more of them wanting evidence… which post Zhaitan defeat is there with the Seventh reaper and all).

Charr as of now simply view the human gods as powerful beings, but not worthy of worship by them.

draxynnic.3719:

Simplest response is to say that the avatar skills were human racials all along, it’s just that in GW1 only the dervishes had learned how to properly unlock them. The rest of the dervish abilities really have nothing to tie them to the gods except skill names, and monks and rangers in particular were filled with references to the gods and that didn’t stop them from being used by other races even back then. Just because humans might name a particular spell or technique after a god doesn’t mean the skill actually has anything directly to do with the god.

xerxes.3496:

draxynnic.3719:

I’ve said it a few times in various places, but I think the most important thing in any presentation of a profession idea is coming up with a solid identification of what the playstyle of a profession is (and thus, why it would play differently to others). I can see why people jump straight to skill descriptions, but consider that when the professions were being originally announced only a handful of skills were revealed – what got people excited was not the nitty gritty of skill lists, but the high-level explanation of how the profession behaved.

Sure, it might be possible to divine this from skill lists, but it’d be a lot easier to understand and more compelling if you left that aside apart from a few examples and talked about how you expected the profession to be played. And if you don’t already have some idea of that before you start planning out skills, you’re kinda putting the cart before the horse.

i think that if the dervish were to return as a playable class that it wouldnt happen until elona returned as well.

one way i could see how it would be played by all classes is that after all of this time the dervishes could have turned away from the gods altogether because they have abandoned them. then maybe they could draw their powers from the mists or darker forces of nature. their powers could still be avatar based either way.

if it were the mists, then their new avatars could be almost anything powerful from there. if from darker forces of nature then they could become avatars of more powerful elemental beings like dragons or the like.

of course this is all just guessing but this would allow other races to partake in the class.

I don’t see how this addresses my point, since in the quoted text I didn’t say anything about avatars, the gods, or other races. Frankly, anything even vaguely similar to avatars are going to be elites, and with the way GW2 elites work, this makes them an ‘occasional thing’ rather than something that’s actually an important part of the profession.

My point is that what I tend to look for in profession suggestions is a clear explanation of how the profession plays that establishes that it has a different playstyle to the existing ones. Most profession suggestions, including this one, don’t have that.

I see what you are saying Drax. I but I do think he was trying address what you were saying in part. At least I think he was.

He said that their powers could now be derived from other places like the mists. Maybe their class could be generally avatar based. As elementalists change between elements, maybe Dervishes would change between avatars that have differing skills. Why do they have to be elites? Now maybe all of their powers are derived from whatever avatar form they choose to represent.

Maybe the avatar has nothing to do with a single skill as it did in GW1. No elites skill like “Avatar of Dwayna”. Perhaps their choice of weapon determines the Avatar they represent as do their utility skills. Maybe all skills are locked into the avatar weapon they choose. Maybe in this they are the opposite of Engineers. When they choose their weapon it changes their utility skills sort of like when an Engineer chooses a kit it changes their weapons skills.

I think there are many possibilities to consider. Both the above give examples of how the play style could be different than other classes we now have.

Is this sort of what you were looking for?

Yes and no. xerxes seemed to be more concerned about the lore side, though, which (unusually) I hadn’t brought up at all. My general campaign here is that I do think there are gaps in the playstyles offered by GW2 (it’s telling that when I feel nostalgic for GW1, it’s the dervish and ritualist I see myself playing if I go back, while back in the day those two, while up there, were not my main characters), but most new profession suggestions I see aren’t very good at that – they tend to either focus on the lore side of things (while lore is important, coming up with new lore behind a profession is the easy part) or dive straight into skill lists (which can easily become a case of ’can’t see the forest for the trees’ – for the reader if not for the suggester). What I’d like to see is for profession suggesters to focus on what makes their profession distinct in how it is played, without going straight to the minutiae.

So, to expand that ‘yes and no’. Yes, because you’ve come up with an example of a new mechanic that could be part of a new class. Simply shifting between avatars, in and of itself, would lead to something very similar to the elementalist – give the elementalist a scythe and you’d probably actually be there, but the idea of having them change the utility bar could lead to interesting places (and, incidentally, probably be closer to what GW1 dervish avatars actually did – they didn’t change your weapon attacks, but certainly changed the way you interacted with your bar). No because, while certainly a step in the same direction, that in itself is simply an interesting gimmick rather than a full profession. (But it’s a start!)

Incidentally, to look at the lore aspect of it:

What if, instead of using human names, we used the norn appellations? Somewhat similar to guardian virtues, instead of referring to avatars of Kormir, Balthazar, Grenth, and so on, you assume the mantle of Knowledge, War, Death, etc. From a human’s perspective, these powers are “obviously” sourced from the gods, but a charr could still, for example, assume the mantle of Death without any misgivings – just because that half-human godling has pretensions of grandeur doesn’t mean he has any monopoly on becoming an incarnation of Death.

draxynnic.3719:

So, to expand that ‘yes and no’. Yes, because you’ve come up with an example of a new mechanic that could be part of a new class. Simply shifting between avatars, in and of itself, would lead to something very similar to the elementalist – give the elementalist a scythe and you’d probably actually be there, but the idea of having them change the utility bar could lead to interesting places (and, incidentally, probably be closer to what GW1 dervish avatars actually did – they didn’t change your weapon attacks, but certainly changed the way you interacted with your bar). No because, while certainly a step in the same direction, that in itself is simply an interesting gimmick rather than a full profession. (But it’s a start!)

Incidentally, to look at the lore aspect of it:

What if, instead of using human names, we used the norn appellations? Somewhat similar to guardian virtues, instead of referring to avatars of Kormir, Balthazar, Grenth, and so on, you assume the mantle of Knowledge, War, Death, etc. From a human’s perspective, these powers are “obviously” sourced from the gods, but a charr could still, for example, assume the mantle of Death without any misgivings – just because that half-human godling has pretensions of grandeur doesn’t mean he has any monopoly on becoming an incarnation of Death.

I like your lore aspect. As you said, it would be easy to come up with lore end. There are really a lot of possibilities. But I really do like the ones you suggested. Those are aspects of existence that apply to all races.

I get what you are saying about it sort of entering the elementalist area, but there is much overlap in classes in similarity. Any class that can be an affective melee aspect has overlap in my opinion. They all amount to variations of hack and slash with maybe the exception of the Ele.

Where I think playstyle would be different by manipulating he utility bar instead of the weapon bar is that you have to buy utility skills with skill points. It may make it much more challenging to fill out the utility skills. You don’t have to buy weapon skills. I think this would lend itself to Dervs questing to make themselves more rounded out as warriors.

To that end, they could also make them a third heavy class and have them abandon their “medium” class status they had in GW1.

If Monks can go from a light class to a heavy one (Guardian), then I think a melee class like Dervishes going to a heavy class status would not be that much of a stretch.

Also a deviation from the Ele would be to not have more than two avatars available at a time. This could be done through weapon swapping to fit the GW2 model. This would give them weapon swapping which eles do not have and would restrict them to two avatars instead of the four elements available to eles.

The other playstyle difference from other classes could be through the TYPES of skills they have. Each class has something unique about them through the “F key” skills. They could be made unique here too. I can’t believe that ANet is simply out of ideas on how to make a new class different from the rest.

One last thing I thought of that would not only make them different than other classes, but also harken back to GW1 mechanics is how the class has to play depending on the avatar chosen.

Maybe one avatar forces them to act like a heavy class tank, while another forces them to act as a light class style of play. How to accomplish that? I have no clue, but I am sure devs would have no problem implementing that.

I mained a Rit. My dervish was a secondary class for me although I did enjoy playing him when I did.

I think it would be very simple for ANet to develop new classes. I think there are a myriad of ideas out there for differences that no one has come up with. I just think it would require a bit of thought and planning.

I think ANet could bring back any old class and change them up to make them different yet fit into the GW2 style.

Heavy dervishes, or possibly more accurately, a heavy profession that draws a lot from the dervish, is certainly something I could see happening. Certainly, there aren’t really many armours even in the light set that fit the classical robed look of dervishes, so there will probably naturally need to be some evolution in their look.

I think having the mantles replace utility skills rather than weapon skills is a pretty substantial difference. Currently, no profession has the ability to change its utility skills in combat, so that in itself would be a unique capability (possibly a capability that ArenaNet had good reason not to include, but if so, we’re not party to that information). I think it also fits better with how avatars worked in GW1 (they did not substantially affect your weapon attacks, but granted new abilities that interacted in interesting ways with your existing skills) – compared to all existing transformation-esque skills that change your weapon skills but otherwise generally leave you behaving the same except perhaps for a few boons.

Philosophically, I’d prefer the mantles to be utility skills you choose (like an engineer) rather than profession mechanic skills you’re locked into – however, this would require having a slot either in your skillbar or your F skills dedicated to dropping you out of the mantle. I think it would also be important to have a mechanic to stop people regarding mantles as something they duck into briefly, fire off the utilities, and then switch back out of the mantle in order to assume another one and repeat. One way to do this might be to give each mantle relatively short-recharge utilities, while the mantle itself has an extended recharge once swapped out of – leaving a mantle means you miss out on those skills for long enough for them to have recharged and been reused a few times.

That said, though, while avatars were cool and all, I don’t think they were actually the core of the dervish. They were five elite skills that you could choose to use or not use. I think it’s more worthwhile to look at how dervishes were played – and as a rule, they tended to be played in one of two ways:

1: The ‘buff and bash’ approach – layer on your choice of buffing enchantments then go to town. Dominant for much of GW1’s life, but not really anything all that special from a playstyle side – assassins could also do this, and even warriors with an appropriate secondary.

2: The ‘enchantment sacrifice’ route, building up stacks of enchantments and then throwing them off.

The second is what I’d be inclined on trying to reproduce. This mechanic created a kind of ‘ebb and flow’ to dervish play which isn’t present in existing GW2 professions (I think the closest is shatter mesmers, but, well… No). I’m not sure how this could be done mechanically (although I do have a few ideas) but for me at least that’s something I actually miss from the GW1 dervish, while the mantles are something I would be more inclined to think of as being a bit like mesmer mantras – a unique element of the profession, but not really what makes the profession itself stand out.

@draxynnic. Those are excellent ideas. I think they all sound like they would go well toward making the Dervish a different and viable for a new class.

I also agree that Avatars were not the core of being a dervish, but they could be for them as a class in GW2. It would distinguish them. The two play styles you listed above were indeed a Dervish’s bread and butter. I see a couple of problems with both as their main in GW2.

If ‘buff and bash’ were to be their staple I am afraid that they would just come across as a variation on a theme with Warriors and Guardians. Both of these classes already do this to a degree. Warriors and Guardians both utilize shouts which are a variation IMO of enchantments. Warriors use battle standards and guardians are boon central. Both are also variations on enchantments to me. So I don’t know that they would achieve the unique status that you would like to see in a new class if they were centered around this play style.

The second one could be interesting. Enchantment sacrifice could have some possibilities. But then again, it might be a bit like creating and destroying clones which is the mesmer staple. But I am sure this play style has a ton of possibilities I can’t think of right now.

For me personally, I would like to see the transition to avatars as the main staple. It would make them vastly different than any other class.

Well, that’s pretty much exactly my point with ‘buff and bash’ – everybody did it, the only distinction was that in GW1 different professions had different buffs available. Now… that’s still technically true, I guess, but not really an important distinction apart from spreadsheet minmaxers.

Regarding enchantment sacrifice – I think one of the big distinctions is that for the GW2 mesmer, it’s basically an all-or-nothing proposal. They can blow everything they’ve got for a powerful effect, or they can, well, not. Dervishes, though, were a little more organic – they had some choices that blew everything they had, but usually it was sacrificing one at a time for some smaller but still useful effect (particularly since a lot of dervish enchantments had on-removal effects, so those skills served as a useful way of generating them on demand). Even dedicated shatter mesmers tend to build up and trigger only every ten seconds or so and otherwise fall back on more conventional skills – a dervish after the Live Team overhaul of the profession could have a constant stream of apply, strip, apply, strip that’s woven through the entire experience of playing the build, not just the occasional spike.

I like that constant stream of enchantment stripping you suggested. It would also harken back to flash enchantments. I loved that about the GW1 dervish

I honestly do think we will probably get a modified Dervish class once we get to Elona. Which I truly believe we will someday. I think the Dervish is the class that most likely would come with the expanded content.

I also believe there will probably be a retooled version of the Ritualist once we get back to Canthat. My friends and I have done what we have done here and figured out how a possible Rit could work even using spirits that would make it different than the necro, the mesmer, and the Engineer. I think if the two of us and my friends can come up with viable new classes, then surely devs at ANet can easily come up with revised classes that would be different than other current classes, but still pay homage to their original counterparts.

As far as assassins and paragons go, I am certain ANet could come up with retooled versions as well, but most of those two classes have been heavily split up between current classes. I don’t know if either of their GW2 versions would resemble their former classes.

Well, with the assassin in particular most of their mechanics have been taken up by the thief. I don’t think it’s possible for the assassin to stand as a seperate profession now – closest I’d expect is a set of more assassin-related skills for the thief.