Guild Wars 2

Wouldn’t the Order of the Sunspears or should I say what is left of the orders members try to relocate to Tyria after Palawa Joko decimated them. That way they can try to rebuild their order to save Elona. I for one would have figured they would place a fraction of their order in other places just in case of a major attack after the events of Nightfall. Thoughts?

The Suspears were the defenders of Elona, and that’s what they did when Palawa invaded. However, they failed, almost got wiped out. The remaining ones surrendered and joined Palawa’s army as a unit called the Mordant Crescent.

I don’t think any of them left or that they made another bases in another continents.

I remember reading that Miyani by the Mystic Forge is a Sunspear refugee. Not sure if it’s true… IIRC, it came from one of ANet’s now-removed blog posts, but my memory of this is vague, so I may be mistaken.

Actually, we do have some information on Sunspears that didn’t defect and join the Mordant Crescent, partly from an interview around the time the guardian was announced, and partly from the Movement of the World:

Some did indeed migrate to Tyria, but didn’t have enough numbers to be an organisation in their own right, but they were involved with the formation of the Guardian profession in Tyria. Others that remained in Elona are now, basically, wandering hermits, trying to keep the principles they stand for but not having the strength to oppose Joko directly.

draxynnic.3719:

Some did indeed migrate to Tyria, but didn’t have enough numbers to be an organisation in their own right, but they were involved with the formation of the Guardian profession in Tyria. Others that remained in Elona are now, basically, wandering hermits, trying to keep the principles they stand for but not having the strength to oppose Joko directly.

Drax, I know it is probably a separate issue (maybe not) but do you know anything about the sunspears in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings? Are they related to any of this somehow. I googled and looked them up on Wiki, but didn’t see much. Maybe I missed it.

Gandarel.5091:

The Suspears were the defenders of Elona, and that’s what they did when Palawa invaded. However, they failed, almost got wiped out. The remaining ones surrendered and joined Palawa’s army as a unit called the Mordant Crescent.

I don’t think any of them left or that they made another bases in another continents.

So ummm….
Assuming they were similar to the guys in Sahlahja…
Wouldn’t that mean they were just kept around as breeding stock to make more soon to be undead for Joko’s Army?? ….see this could even be the one kink in Zhaitan’s plans… Towards the end of that arc, he had to IMPORT his from the mainland. While Joko could still have some kind of Flesh-Farm still going complete with a massive fleet of Wurms to taxi them around in.

Good lord…
things get really weird really fast when you think about this game’s lore too deeply.

Well that’s quite probably the only reason that he kept living beings in Elona at all. I mean an undead population should technically be easier to control (although based on some of his generals we do not know that to be true). But after a certain point in time an undead army will die off unless it has living beings to replenish it’s stocks.

Still even if most of them were killed then raised or defected to avoid death. I would believe that a few would try to build up forces or look for help from other nations. Not only that, they could have possibly done what the order of Whispers did, but only be more secretive as the remaining members are being hunted by the Mordant Crescent.

jheryn.8390:

Drax, I know it is probably a separate issue (maybe not) but do you know anything about the sunspears in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings? Are they related to any of this somehow. I googled and looked them up on Wiki, but didn’t see much. Maybe I missed it.

The Sunspears sent to the Tomb of the Primeval Kings were there to investigate the disturbances. What happened to the whole is unknown, though Dunkoro’s son was among them and he was KIA’d.

Dunkoro: “Years ago, I sent my son to the Crystal Desert.”
Dunkoro: “There were reports of strange things in the Tombs of the Primeval Kings. Tentacles bursting through the stone.”
Kormir: “Abaddon.”
Dunkoro: “Yes. My son was reported missing and presumed dead. I blamed myself, for sending him off without enough forethought.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain_%28cinematic%29

As to what happened with the Sunspears, I suspect that those who didn’t live their lives as hermits and lone travelers like the Movement of the World says (“Those few Sunspears who survived passed on the teachings of the Order over the course of more than a hundred years, holding onto the tenets of a barely-remembered vision. They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence. ") were likely absorbed into the Order of Whispers, since open warfare wasn’t really an option and the two hold similar enough origins, but are overall now wiped out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They became wandering mystics, philosophers, and lone warriors in a world that chose to forget their presence. "_) were likely absorbed into the Order of Whispers, since open warfare wasn’t really an option and the two hold similar enough origins, but are overall now wiped out.

I think that would be a cool explanation. It would be great if somewhere in the future, something uniquely Sunspear would be glaringly evident within the Whispers Order.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I remember reading that Miyani by the Mystic Forge is a Sunspear refugee. Not sure if it’s true… IIRC, it came from one of ANet’s now-removed blog posts, but my memory of this is vague, so I may be mistaken.

“Miyani is a Lion’s Arch vendor who sells mystic items for skill points and mystic recipes for coin. She also offers information about the nearby Mystic Forge. She is also the sunspear refugee who brought the djinn Zommoros with her when she fled from Elona.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Miyani

That’s little reassurance. This would not be the first time that wiki has misled me.

Would be nice if we get a story that involved them in some way; for example, more refugees are making there way to the tyrian continent and we have to escort or fight off members of the mordant crescent as they start to arrive. Thoughts?

Fish.1657:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I remember reading that Miyani by the Mystic Forge is a Sunspear refugee. Not sure if it’s true… IIRC, it came from one of ANet’s now-removed blog posts, but my memory of this is vague, so I may be mistaken.

“Miyani is a Lion’s Arch vendor who sells mystic items for skill points and mystic recipes for coin. She also offers information about the nearby Mystic Forge. She is also the sunspear refugee who brought the djinn Zommoros with her when she fled from Elona.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Miyani

Honestly, I’ve never seen it mentioned that Miyani is a Sunspear refugee – and TBH, she couldn’t be. Descended from one, sure, but if she were an actual Sunspear refugee from Elona, then she’d have to be over roughly 190 years old as that’d be about when the Order of the Sunspears were disbanded by force by Joko – and it’s been about 50 years since the last Elonian refugee came to Tyria. And it doesn’t help that there’s no reference for that “fact,” and there’s no other mention of Miyani being a Sunspear on the wiki.

I’m sure it’s supposed to be that she’s descended from a Sunspear refugee. Given her dialogue, I’m more inclined to think that, though it can certainly be interpreted as Miyani having come from Elona herself, but honestly given the timeframe for refugees and Joko’s actions, I highly doubt she herself was a Sunspear refugee.

And let’s face it, the GW2W has so many lore errors it’s hardly worth considering a reliable source anymore – doesn’t help that the formatting across the wiki has about 10 different styles.

Don’t worry guys, my character The Sunspear is still alive to continue the order.

The Wiki page does say that she is a Sunspear, but as Konig points out there have been many things on the Wiki that have been incorrect.

What is not incorrect on the wiki is her dialog (I went to her and confirmed). One part of it says:

“Between his boasts, he tells me stories of my homeland, Elona. It helps me remember where I’m from, even if I can’t go back.”
“Why can’t you go back?”
“Palawa Joko rules Elona with an iron fist. No one gets out or in. But Zommoros keeps the memory of my people alive through his stories. For that, I’m grateful.”

She does say she cannot go back, meaning that she was indeed there (or claims to be). She also dresses like a paragon, and how many people in Tyria would remember how a paragon garbed themselves? This gives a little credibility even if circumstantial. So that makes me think of a few possibilities.

1. She is very old, making her one of the escapees from Elona that would confirm that those in Elona have not escaped or been seen in Tyria for 50 years.

2. Zommoros somehow allowed himself and her to escape through magical means.

3. That it was incorrect that it has been 50 years since anyone has escaped Elona. We were told this, but we have been told many things…

We also know The Order of Whispers does have contact with Elona somehow. I suppose there is a possibility that the Whisperers have smuggled some people out of Elona and we just are not privy to that information yet. Whatever the case, as was stated above, there are some real inconsistencies with her character and what we have been told about Elona.

It might also be possible that Zommoros has extended her lifespan. Guild Wars lore holds that djinn can grant wishes (or, at least, that there are legends of them doing such), but it never lays out just what that power is capable of.

Pure speculation, but it is a theory I am particularly fond of, and it would mean there are no inconsistencies in her dialogue.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

It might also be possible that Zommoros has extended her lifespan. Guild Wars lore holds that djinn can grant wishes (or, at least, that there are legends of them doing such), but it never lays out just what that power is capable of.

Pure speculation, but it is a theory I am particularly fond of, and it would mean there are no inconsistencies in her dialogue.

Good one! I like this one a lot. It would also make my first guess be in line with yours. She is very old.

Not neccessaryly that old. The last weave came decades ago, but 1-2 refugees can perhaps slip throught with the aid of the Order of Whispers, who are confirmed to have routes to Elona supporting the resistance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Miyani.jpg

This armor is probably a traditional Sunspear Paragon heavy armor, i don’t think she would wear his ancestors’ armor after like 50-200 years. Rather say it’s her own one.

People tend to wear their ancestor’s armor in fantasy stories a lot, as well as using their ancestor’s weapons. It’s not unusual, so I don’t see why Miyani would be automatically exempt from this.

Nope. Just check Miyani’s dialogue, jheryn is right.

People do have a tendency to speak of going back to their ancestor’s home when they themselves have never been there. It’s a figure of speech, so I wouldn’t take those words to be full out proof she’s was born in Elona. Though it’s far from impossible if it was via means unlike the common populous.

I’m pretty sure I’ve caught myself saying “I’d like to go back to Ireland” before, even though I’ve never been there. It is where a vast majority of my heritage comes from and it’s been a desire for a long time to travel there. It could be a very similar situation, though, as Konig said, it’s not impossible for it to be the other situation either.

It says that the Sunspears were wiped out!

Really? According to who?

This is what TYRIANS know of the situation.

But ok, lets say it’s been proven. Now, if I was Elonian and wanted to start an underground movement against Polo. Guess what name I’d dust off!

Just a thought

Fish.1657:

It says that the Sunspears were wiped out!

Really? According to who?

This is what TYRIANS know of the situation.

But ok, lets say it’s been proven. Now, if I was Elonian and wanted to start an underground movement against Polo. Guess what name I’d dust off!

Just a thought

Aye, I will be there when the Sunspears rise again…

Technically, it’s what Elonians who fled to Tyria know of the situation.

As for underground movements against Joko in Elona – there is one. It’s called the Order of Whispers.

To be fair, though, the Sunspears may be a better rallying cry to the populace, since in the populace’s view it was the Sunspears that beat back Nightfall (the Order kept to the shadows back then).

That does assume that Joko hasn’t successfully discredited the Sunspears or destroyed that history in the minds of the common people, of course.

Konig, it is possible that she was born in Kryta, but unlikely. Let’s be fair, 50-50%. But you always speak of your theory as if that is a fact.

There’s nothing in Konig’s posts speaking of his theory as fact. The overall feel of his posts is that he accepts both as possible, but considers Krytan-born as being more likely.

Really, there are things that need to be explained in both cases. If Miyani is locally-born, then her speaking of going ‘back’ to Elona is a incongruity (albeit a minor one, because many people do speak of going ‘back’ to a cultural homeland they’ve never been to) as is the question of how she came to be Zommoros’ keeper (possibly inherited from her parents). If she’s Elonian-born, however, then either she’s over 50 and incredibly well-preserved (or herself not human – djinn can appear as humans, after all) or there’s a story behind how she got out of Elona since Palawa took control.

Personally, on reflection, I’m inclined to think she is Elonian-born – she speaks of travelling with Zomorros, so she certainly hasn’t been in Lion’s Arch all her life, and there’s relatively little opportunity to travel within Tyria (especially pre-treaty).

That said, though, armour or not, I don’t think she’s a Sunspear. A Sunspear that made her way to Tyria would, I imagine, have more of a drive to uphold Sunspear ideals rather than opening up a simple business with her djinn partner – plus, the sunspears didn’t have any real special relationship with djinn. I’d probably say it’s more likely that she’s a descendant of Vabbian nobility.

draxynnic.3719:

Really, there are things that need to be explained in both cases. If Miyani is locally-born, then her speaking of going ‘back’ to Elona is a incongruity (albeit a minor one, because many people do speak of going ‘back’ to a cultural homeland they’ve never been to) as is the question of how she came to be Zommoros’ keeper (possibly inherited from her parents). If she’s Elonian-born, however, then either she’s over 50 and incredibly well-preserved (or herself not human – djinn can appear as humans, after all) or there’s a story behind how she got out of Elona since Palawa took control.

Personally, on reflection, I’m inclined to think she is Elonian-born – she speaks of travelling with Zomorros, so she certainly hasn’t been in Lion’s Arch all her life, and there’s relatively little opportunity to travel within Tyria (especially pre-treaty).

I think of it this way: If you were a djinn with Phenominal Cosmic Powers, how far would you go to keep alive your only remaining link to your lost homeland?

As I told before, the last wave of refugees!!! arrived more than 50-60 years ago, but individuals can perhaps be smuggled out by the Order of Whispers, because they have a route to Elona to support the resistance and maintain the guerilla-war against Palawa.

There is the possibility that Joko wanted Zomorros for some reason (magical powers and all), so the Order of Whispers worked to make sure he and his keeper got out of Elona and out of Joko’s reach.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s nothing in Konig’s posts speaking of his theory as fact. The overall feel of his posts is that he accepts both as possible, but considers Krytan-born as being more likely.

I agree. I don’t think he was even suggesting that his theory was fact. He even says that it is just his guess

draxynnic.3719:

Personally, on reflection, I’m inclined to think she is Elonian-born – she speaks of travelling with Zomorros, so she certainly hasn’t been in Lion’s Arch all her life, and there’s relatively little opportunity to travel within Tyria (especially pre-treaty).

I also think she is Elonian born. I also believe that her garb is most definitely paragon/sunspear.

What makes me further believe she is Elonian, is something else she says in her dialog that I posted above.

“Between his boasts, he tells me stories of my homeland, Elona. It helps me remember where I’m from, even if I can’t go back.”
“Why can’t you go back?”
“Palawa Joko rules Elona with an iron fist. No one gets out or in. But Zommoros keeps the memory of my people alive through his stories. For that, I’m grateful.”

She say says something similar twice in her dialog “It helps me remember where I’m from” and “Zommoros keeps the memory of my people alive”. Those statement sound to me like she is saying she remembers those things and Zommoros helps her do that. She cannot remember them if she was not there. It also sounds to me as if it is intimate knowledge of her people.

I do think somehow she is from Elona. I could be wrong, but between even knowing Zommoros and traveling with him, I don’t see how she could be Tyrian. Zommoros is obviously not a Tyrian creature. Elona, the Far Shiverpeaks, and some parts of the Charr homelands had djinns, not Tyria as far as I can recall.

The Stone Summit did have djinn in Sorrow’s Furnace, but we don’t know if they were sourced locally or not.

Pretty sure they were. The Stone Summit aren’t really much to go foreign except in dire situations like being exiled (which they were after Prophecies). Plus, you got Flame Djinn that act similarly to the Sorrow’s Furnace ones in the Catacombs of Kathandrax, and there were the blue djinn (which would be what Zomorros is – a water based djinn) in the Far Shiverpeaks.

They’re not as common in Tyria as in Elona, but they still seem to be natural there – but only fire and water based djinn, no air-based djinn (the yellow).

As I said above, I remember the ones in the Far Shiverpeaks and Charr homelands, but I’d forgotten about the Sorrow’s Furnace djinns. But if it was a Tyrian Djinn, I don’t know that Zomorros would know that much about Elona and be able to keep her from remembering her people and tell her stories of her homeland.

No one knows the life span of a djinn. Heck, they could live for thousands of years as far as we know. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of the elder ones can grow to travel and expand their horizons past what they once protected. IDK where I’m going with this, just saying though.

Narcemus.1348:

No one knows the life span of a djinn. Heck, they could live for thousands of years as far as we know. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of the elder ones can grow to travel and expand their horizons past what they once protected. IDK where I’m going with this, just saying though.

LOL. Very true. I get where you are going. They could have migrated to Tyria from Elona or somewhere else.

My gut still tells me that she and Zomorros are from Elona. I know we only have circumstantial evidence to support this, but that is what I think. None of us really know until Anet does something lore wise with these two.

I have a feeling that they most definitely could be involved in whatever procedure brings us back there.

Narcemus.1348:

No one knows the life span of a djinn. Heck, they could live for thousands of years as far as we know. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of the elder ones can grow to travel and expand their horizons past what they once protected. IDK where I’m going with this, just saying though.

Zomorros speaks of the karka as if he’s seen them once before – being long ago when the continents were a different shape and the world emptier. To me, this indicates that djinn can live for a VERY long time.

Also, I do not believe that djinn are born bound to protect anything or bound to any location. Powerful wizards are capable of binding them to protect things, but they’re free willed and sentient elementals in their most basic description, and the only cases of seeing djinn bound are when powerful wizards bind them. The closest counter would be the djinn who protect the Elon during Nightfall (Deliah or w/e her name was and her companion Water Djinn), but nothing really says that they’re not protecting the Elon merely by pure choice and can stop whenever they so wish.

Hrrrmn…

It’s not conclusive, but my reading of the passage on djinns in the Nightfall Manuscripts is that they’re often naturally bound to places of natural significance, and that wizards can bind them to artificial locations. Admittedly, this could be that the ‘naturally’ bound djinn were bound in their locations by previous generations and have lasted long enough that any artificial structures that may have been in the place they were protecting have fallen – however, I’m inclined to think that some or all djinn naturally appear as protectors of the region in which they appeared.

However, the entry also specifies that djinn “may become powerful enough to find their own motives”. Thus, Zomorros may be a djinn that was created without a mandate to protect something, or he may be an example of a djinn that broke or was relieved of his bindings and became free.

Which, should he be as old as Konig seems to imagine (which I see as a good possibility) he could have long ago reached that state.

What if Djinns, just like dragons, feed on magic, thus keeping themselves alive as long as they have enough of it?

Zommoros runs the mystic forge, with consuming the items you give to him, and giving back an unknown part of the materials as something new, while keeping a portion for himself?

And a Djinn lives as long as he has enough magic absorbed.

It’s a win-win combination.

I would agree. It seems very common for magical creatures to consume magic. I even remember hearing that said about imps.

Well, imps are demons and demons have been known since Nightfall to live off of consuming souls (which I would suspect is a form of energy that could empower magic). Djinn on the other hand are sentient beings whose souls are made from elemental energies. Based on what Jeff Grubb said, I would presume that they’d survive in whatever way elementals survive, as they appear to be a “more evolved form of elementals” more or less. And all I know about elementals’ diet is that they don’t have mouths. But they certainly do tend to form/gather in magically concentrated areas.

Well consuming magic doesn’t necessarily mean you eat it. I mean even Zhaitan didn’t “eat” his magic that we can tell. He just had the magic wirelessly transferred to him by a servant. I think that there is a good chance that certain beings could quite easily “consume” magic by simply living around it and absorbing it into their being. There is another alternative that isn’t mentioned yet though. It is quite possible that Djinn have vast amounts of magical potential that they haven’t figured out how to tap into. Thus over time they can become more powerful mainly because they are able to figure out how to tap into their own potential rather than from absorbing more magic. I mean the same can be said about human growth and development on a different level. These Djinn just need to learn to “flex their muscles”.

I think Konig ment that they don’t live with the same food as the other species like human and charr by stating they don’t have a mouth.