Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
Suspension of Disbelief or Secondary Belief?
I disagree with the limitation of Suspension of disbelief. To describe the essence of why I quote the great Dumbledore:
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
The thing is that we take for granted that what we percieve in real life is real and what we percieve in game is not real. Lets see what really is happening.
The real world is percieved through sense, like eyes, and ears. The same goes for playing a game. In what way is that different? Are you aware you are operating a keyboard/mouse, or do we do that as instinct. How is running forward in a game different then running forward in real life (beside condition). The game is percieved as real as the real world.
Given this situation, it is your own limitation of mind that makes an element too absurd, and not the element itself.
Yellow is yellow cause we call yellow yellow. But what if you percieve what is yellow in the way I percieve red. Or in other way of saying. For some a dish is spicy, and for others it is not. Who is right and who is wrong?
Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!
Arise, opressed of Tyria!
You seem to have misunderstood the idea – suspension of disbelief is not the same as believing, but putting aside the disbelief for the elements of a story so as to follow a story as if it was realistic. It was originally thought of when through learning, the medieval belief in supernatural had all but disappeared (save for some of the religious parts), while poetry and plays often depicted magical things.
So in essence, in order to not discredit the story wholly laughable, the disbelief for the impossible parts (such as John Rambo never running out of ammo) is “suspended”.
And my point wasn’t to start a philosophical discussion on the matter of enjoying stories (though it always is enjoyable), but to raise a question at how Anet presents the world of Tyria to us.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
I don’t think ArenaNet are presenting Tyria to use with the intention that we use one or the other of these technical philosophical perspectives. Surely it’s up to the player to decide how they feel about the world and on what terms they engage with it? I certainly don’t think ArenaNet have any obligation to flesh out certain things just so that we can feel more comfortable in our secondary belief constructs. I do expect internal consistency in what I learn about Tyria (and although I don’t always get it, I’m pretty happy) – but that’s not the same as needing to know how everything works.
Suspension of disbelief, in short, refers to the act of forfeiting logical doubt so as to enjoy a story with impossible elements, such as magic or superpowers. This is only possible up to a certain point (of course, the exact point varies by person), so if the story includes an element too absurd, the whole suspension of disbelief may be lost.
No not quite but it’s close enough. “Suspension of disbelief” is a broader term which can be summed up:
“I know this isn’t and cannot be real but I am believing it holds weight for the sake of entertainment.”
It’s not limited to fantasy or science-fiction, it’s merely the highest probable source of the need for that. “Die Hard” requires suspension of disbelief even though it is, for the time, fairly realistic in how events should actually happen. The coincidences and competency of the main character are, however, debate-ably over-emphasized so as to get through the story.
We know that in the world of “CSI” lab tests can be finished in a vastly compressed timeline, when in reality they take weeks if not longer. We let that go because it’s fiction and we are willing to see where it goes.
Secondary Belief, instead, is the reader (or player, as the case may be) choosing to believe the story, because the world where it takes place has internal consistency of reality. What this means is that while in the real world, magic is logically not possible, it does not have to be so in a fantasy world, if the world is brought forwards so that it presents logical reasoning and definition for magic. This can be mystical or scientific, the important thing is that it’s consistent and doesn’t break the inner reality of the world.
Strangely, this term does not come up on Wikipedia, which leaves me having to go abroad to find good data on it. Though from what it seems, it jives with what a writing professor of mine called “Internal Consistency”.
Or as Chuck Sonnenberg said (paraphrased): “Look I don’t care if it’s BS, just be consistent with your BS”
Now, in what way does Anet want to present us their world? I’ve seen a lot of internal laws and logics in Tyria (for example, the whole business with the bloodstone), but I’d like to see more, get more details on say, how Asuran magitechnology works, how is magic channeled, and so forth. Details like these go a long way in establishing credibility for a fantasy world.
Why would you need to know how the magitek asura make works? Or how magic functions? So far magic seems to be unpredictable and more chaotic a force, so it’s hard to figure out exactly how it works 100% of the time. Similarly, asuran technology has not had the best record of behaving as theory suggests. See: Thaumanova Reactor fallout and all attempts to clean up the energies there.
What we do need to know in regards to the story has maintained consistency:
- The elder dragons seem to feast off magical energies. This is best evidenced by the defeat of the Spirits of the Wild by Jormag.
- As such, it is also shown Zhaitan seems to be consuming magical items through the Mouths of Zhaitan. It was theorized before (by a player) this was due to it expending powers on creating more Risen, so there had to be an inflow of power as much as an outflow.
- By disrupting the known energies of an elder dragon it is possible to harm it. Proven conclusively with the specialized beam weapon employed on Zhaitan, which was perhaps the blow which made it possible to defeat it entirely.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Well, I phrased it so that it would be easier to connect to the context, and didn’t want to write an essay explaining the term.
And why do I want to know those things? For me, a fictional world is much more enjoyable if I get insight on the internal rules of the world. It’s that simple, really. And I’m not saying there’s much inconsistency to be found, I’d just like to find out the logics of Tyria.
And those are some good examples you mention, I’ll give you that. More of that sort of thing is what I’m after.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
And I’m not saying there’s much inconsistency to be found, I’d just like to find out the logics of Tyria.
Here’s the penny ante up for what you’ll need to understand.
- The charr seem to employ black powder, or some evolution of that. The powder was more widely used by Deldrimor dwarves but it’s clear the secret got out. Their mechanisms seem steam-driven, and tend towards heavily armored forms. As far as magic goes, there is a slight stigma on it due to the Flame Legion of the past but it seems accepted alongside steel, iron, and guns.
- The humans rely on simpler mechanisms, which is why the epitome of their siege weapons is the trebuchet. Very simple, very easy to set up, dead simple to use. On the magical side of things, while they may not always be the most powerful in the room, humans still have a deep connection to the Six which can be called upon in the right circumstances.
- The asura have researched through many . . . many . . . many wrong turns, a way of utilizing magical energy in a way we would use electricity today. However, sources seem a little tough for me to pin down. The Thaumanova reactor explosion was due to trying to use “chaos magic”, which resists efforts to be cleaned up and is in general a considerable hazard in that area.
- Norn revere the Spirits of the Wild, who are beings dwelling in the Mists, and while they do show respect, they do not (often) make major requests. So it seems the norn and human differ in that humans will beg favors from their gods while the norn will instead try to prove themselves worthy of the aid. Note that norn do not employ advanced technology, but do have very good crafting skills. The Great Lodge is an amazing place, and homesteads seem to be a type of structure to go up quickly and still be secure and warm.
- Sylvari are . . . odd. The seem to use natural plants to mimic technology but don’t employ technology themselves. They also seem to emulate emotions rather than actually feel them. Well, except the Nightmare Court, but they seem to revel in more negative aspects of emotional responses.
- It’s worth noting the asura are, by and large, ignorant of a great many details of their technology. There is a conversation near the gate plaza in Lion’s Arch where a norn asks: “If I track my wounded prey through the gate, will it cauterize the wound?” And the asura replies “I never thought of that question”. Other examples may abound but . . . they invent and innovate but do not question entirely “what is it I am creating?”.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
While I appreciate your effort, that is not quite what I’m after. I’m after the kind of information that answer how and why, instead of what. How does one learn to use magic in Tyria? Why do the Skritt like shiny things? How does a lingering spirit turn into a ghost? What is the level of consciousness of dragon minions?
It is that kind of information I’d wish to find in the game.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
While I appreciate your effort, that is not quite what I’m after. I’m after the kind of information that answer how and why, instead of what. How does one learn to use magic in Tyria? Why do the Skritt like shiny things? How does a lingering spirit turn into a ghost? What is the level of consciousness of dragon minions?
It is that kind of information I’d wish to find in the game.
Interesting . . . but at least two of those won’t be answered, one already is answered.
Specifically, “consciousness of dragon minions”. I don’t want to completely spoil it but you learn relatively late that Risen who are given more complex minds (rather than shock troop Risen) are definitely aware of what their bodies are being made to do and can do nothing to stop it.
On the other hand, it’s relatively clear the Icebrood are completely conscious and most of them are willing participants. Branded I’m not too sure about, mostly due to there not being a lot of information on them other than they exist.
Destroyers . . .
Even with the previous game to draw from, I’m not entirely sure how much destroyers operate on instinct versus reasoning. They seem primarily to operate on base drives to spread and destroy anything not of their own kind. They do not communicate. They do not (apparently) corrupt. They simply enter an area and begin, well, destroying.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that one personal story step… Well, had to come up with examples.
Oh, and regarding destroyers, what we do know is that they appear to have some kind of hive mind, what with the Great Destroyer controlling them in EotN.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
While I appreciate your effort, that is not quite what I’m after. I’m after the kind of information that answer how and why, instead of what. How does one learn to use magic in Tyria? Why do the Skritt like shiny things? How does a lingering spirit turn into a ghost? What is the level of consciousness of dragon minions?
I just don’t think you’re going to find that kind of information in the game, nor do I think ArenaNet should be expected to provide it. Some things are just cumbersome – how people learn magic could be explained, but they’ve preferred not to tie themselves down to a solid explanation so far, and unless there was some kind of heart or event chain about it, I see no reason it would come up in-game. As for questions like “why do the skritt like shiny things?” – the vast majority of people living in Tyria would not know the answer to that question. Why should you?
We experience Tyria through our characters. If it wouldn’t come up for them, we don’t know. Omniscience is not part of the deal, even if we lore geeks like to strive for it.
It’s a story. Not every blank will be filled.
From what I remember of EotN, the destroyers were only a true threat when there is something leading their hive mind. Once the Great Destroyer are killed, they turned mostly mindless, relying only on their instincts for the most part. Which was probably the only reason there aren’t more pockets of them on the surface of Tyria. The dwarves were able to easily cull their numbers before Primordus woke up.
Sorry for the off topic question ahead of time, but didn’t the dwarves get something akin to a hive mind as well, after they completed the ritual of the stone dwarf? It’s been awhile since I played EotN, and I remember some of the companions speculating on their “one mindedness” towards the destruction of the destroyers.
While I appreciate your effort, that is not quite what I’m after. I’m after the kind of information that answer how and why, instead of what. How does one learn to use magic in Tyria? Why do the Skritt like shiny things? How does a lingering spirit turn into a ghost? What is the level of consciousness of dragon minions?
I just don’t think you’re going to find that kind of information in the game, nor do I think ArenaNet should be expected to provide it. Some things are just cumbersome – how people learn magic could be explained, but they’ve preferred not to tie themselves down to a solid explanation so far, and unless there was some kind of heart or event chain about it, I see no reason it would come up in-game. As for questions like “why do the skritt like shiny things?” – the vast majority of people living in Tyria would not know the answer to that question. Why should you?
We experience Tyria through our characters. If it wouldn’t come up for them, we don’t know. Omniscience is not part of the deal, even if we lore geeks like to strive for it.
It’s a story. Not every blank will be filled.
Well, I don’t expect to find them in the game, but I’d like to find them in the game. It’s kind of hard to explain, but knowing the inner mechanisms, logics and rules of the world would add a whole new level of immersion.
Oh, and the skritt example was mostly just for comic effect. A more relevant question would be “what kind of role do shiny things play out in a skritt’s life?” or “What is the method of how a skritt judges things shiny?”. Though neither is still very in-depth world opening question.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
What bugs me more is the lack of explanation on how some skills work and what they do. Like: what happens when a thief casts shadow refuge? How does Spatial Surge damage an opponent? Does it burns things like a laser, or it messes up with matter structure? What happens on many Mesmer skills, like phantasms? Are they physical enough to damage flesh, or it’s just the target imaging to be wounded? What are necromancer’s wells?
If the game is trying to invoke suspension of disbelief it sure is doing a crappy job at it. Me personally I simply cannot get immersed in a game world where an npc sees a number of her kin slain and reacts 5 seconds later by merrily stating she could go for some lovely pie. Yeah no, GW2 wastes no oppertunity to turn the setting it has into a running joke. I can’t see how anyone can suspend disbelief when a story tries so hard to make a fool of itself with silliness like that.
I think it’s extremely problematic to expect GW2 to offer an immersive simulation.
a) It’s a game. Gameplay is never going to be accurate to reality. How many quests have you ever done in an RPG that sounded like things people would actually ask a stranger to do? How many of them had characters express serious grief or consequences based on your actions, or the actions of minor enemies not central to the plot? Very few – because in most cases it does not advance the gameplay or make it more enjoyable.
b) An MMORPG – especially one with a dynamic event system – has to account for a very large number of players coming and going from the world at different times. Things cycle and repeat or reset so that all players can experience them. Nothing can have too much of a lasting effect in the world if everyone’s supposed to have a chance at it. This limits what can be done with character stories, reactions and consequences to a fairly narrow scope. Unlike the real world, events are almost never one-offs.
c) It’s a fantasy world written by fantasy writers. Many fantasy writers are not physicists, anthropologists, psychologists or other specialists; they write from and for a layman’s perspective. Many players are specialists; they critique from their specialty areas, sure. But the goal in building the world was not to build a detailed simulation of a real world, it was to build a setting for a story. Theme park, remember?
I don’t think that Guild Wars 2 asks us to suspend disbelief so much as it asks us to accept a limited frame in which the game plays out. Think about how when you play any video game, you accept limitations on how you can interact with the world: in some games, you can’t jump, and when you play you accept that illogical though it is, that knee-high wall is an unpassable barrier in this context. In GW2, asura use crystals as a power source for magitech. We don’t know how it works, but what the game presents is that it does, here and now. Now play out the scenario!