Guild Wars 2

Well before the announcement of Sylvari as a race and 5 years before GW2 was released. I felt this should be acknowledged in its own thread.

From PC Gamer’s Movement of the World article in 2007:

This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, [sic] while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war. But, upon his arrival, Ronan discovered the Mursaat had destroyed his village and murdered his family, leaving only ruined houses and mass graves. In agony, he planted the seed on their graves and swore never to return to battle.

Terrible plant creatures? In a cavern underground? The seed that would grow into the Pale Tree belonged Mordremoth all along!

Lucky.9421:

Well before the announcement of Sylvari as a race and 5 years before GW2 was released. I felt this should be acknowledged in its own thread.

From PC Gamer’s Movement of the World article in 2007:

This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, [sic] while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war. But, upon his arrival, Ronan discovered the Mursaat had destroyed his village and murdered his family, leaving only ruined houses and mass graves. In agony, he planted the seed on their graves and swore never to return to battle.

Terrible plant creatures? In a cavern underground? The seed that would grow into the Pale Tree belonged Mordremoth all along!

The thing I don’t understand about Ronan is why he took the seed in the first place. I mean, he goes into a cave full of seeds that are apparently guarded, takes one as a trophy of war to show his daughter and then plants it over her grave? Was he thinking – “Gee, let’s see what grows from this huge seed I took from a cave guarded by terrible plant creatures?”

It seems like if you plant a seed on the graves of your loved ones it must have some special (good) meaning aside from a “spoil of war”. It seems like he may have known something about the seeds – or should have in my opinion in order for his actions to make sense. Typically trees are planted over graves so it seems like he knew it would be a tree at the very least.

@ Freeelancer: That’s fair. Though I’ll add this post below, by Angel McCoy. It may have gotten lost in the deluge of post patch lore threads
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/ANet-Writers/first#post4691831

The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.

Michael.8562:

The thing I don’t understand about Ronan is why he took the seed in the first place.

Maybe he sensed something strange and unearthly about the cave and creatures therein, and swiped the seed simply as a curiosity.

Humans tend to do that. We are curious and meddlesome.

Or maybe Mordremoth got into his head? o_O

You don`t pull something new, though.

It has been discussed in the dozen of other threads several times.
This piece of information as well as angels quote are allready woven into most discussions.

Sorry to say, but a bit late to the party.

Jaken.6801:

You don`t pull something new, though.

It has been discussed in the dozen of other threads several times.
This piece of information as well as angels quote are allready woven into most discussions.

Sorry to say, but a bit late to the party.

While this is true, in those dozens of other threads it was all speculation. Now that the turth has been revealed, its seeing that quote and bit about Ronan and the tree in a whole new light.

well i can sort of understand ronnans actions
hes been away for along time in a distant land(i think theres a quote somewhere but have no idea where sorry)
He hasnt seen his daughter in a long time ( cause its so far away i assume it would take a long time to get there but idk)
so he wants to get her something special and plans to tell her of his adventures.
but then he returns home.
imagine how utterly destroyed he must have been. Everything he loved gone in an instant.
so he places the seed where his daughter lay(im not sure if youv ever seen a childs funeral but alot of people place toys and such on or in the casket)
and then proceeds to bury everyone he ever loved(assumption on the burial thing(i dont think the mursaat would have buried the dead))

i dont know, it just seems fitting to me that hed place the seed where his daughter was buried.

as for getting the seed.
perhaps the plant creatures were dormant until he took the seed(like indiana jones style)as soon as he took a seed the creatures erupt from the ground like a defence or alarm system

Why he took the seed doesn’t have to have some deep or meaningful story behind it. He has a little girl. Little girls like flowers. He figured “rare exotic plant seed. This will probably be something cool to show her!” And took it. Then when he found her dead, planting her would-be gift on her grave seems like exactly the kind of sentimental action a guy in his position would take. I mean, people put flowers on graves all the time, even if they are normally fully grown and well documented. Not an unknown seed.

Lucky.9421:

@ Freeelancer: That’s fair. Though I’ll add this post below, by Angel McCoy. It may have gotten lost in the deluge of post patch lore threads
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/ANet-Writers/first#post4691831

The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.

Lucky, Ms. McCoy adds about as much storyline credibility to GW2 as Michael Bay does to cinema. Essentially, I agree with Freeelancer. I don’t believe that. I don’t think the writers knew where the story would be going and I think that’s why we have as many lore inconsistencies and retcons as we do.

That said, I have no way to disprove Ms. McCoy’s statement nor does she really have a way to prove it was indeed all planned. Our only option is to take it at face value. I sincerely hope they didn’t have it planned since 2007 though because if they did, they did a kitten poor job at it.

My guess, and my hope, is that they decided on this course within the last 6 months or so and are now have a vision of where to take the game. Despite the Minion theory not being one I supported for lack of lore-based evidence, I hope they are going to drive the game forward with a vision in mind. This will reduce future lore inconsistencies.

tl;dr – PR statement is PR statement

Shiren.9532:

First all, Angel’s comment should be enough.

If it’s not, Colin Johanson talked about the sylvari origin on a recent Points of Interest and he mentions that Ree Soesbee was planning it since the beginning. He talked about how Ree was revising and revising the tutorial and sylvari personal story text, trying to make sure that they didn’t give away too much of the secret. It has very much been a core part of sylvari design since before GW2 launched, it’s not a PR response, it’s not a change made by a writer you don’t consider credible, it was planned by one of the people who was integral to imagining both GW1 and GW2.

Well, about the people this is aimed at . . . nobody in that group cares. If they don’t believe it on one red post, they’re not going to believe it on two. Or four. Or ninety. They already have their minds made up.

Jeff Grubb shows up and says he sketched it out from the start? Not gonna be believed. (Even though I recall seeing him pull this stuff off once before.)

Pre-Alpha builds of the script could be leaked showing some clues before they were cut? They’d still call dolyak crap.

A time machine takes them back in time to the discussions about creating the sylvari so they can hear it? They’d claim hoax.

I’ve dealt with this kind of thing before in a CS capacity – there is no satisfaction possible.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Shiren.9532:

First all, Angel’s comment should be enough.

If it’s not, Colin Johanson talked about the sylvari origin on a recent Points of Interest and he mentions that Ree Soesbee was planning it since the beginning. He talked about how Ree was revising and revising the tutorial and sylvari personal story text, trying to make sure that they didn’t give away too much of the secret. It has very much been a core part of sylvari design since before GW2 launched, it’s not a PR response, it’s not a change made by a writer you don’t consider credible, it was planned by one of the people who was integral to imagining both GW1 and GW2.

Well, about the people this is aimed at . . . nobody in that group cares. If they don’t believe it on one red post, they’re not going to believe it on two. Or four. Or ninety. They already have their minds made up.

Jeff Grubb shows up and says he sketched it out from the start? Not gonna be believed. (Even though I recall seeing him pull this stuff off once before.)

Pre-Alpha builds of the script could be leaked showing some clues before they were cut? They’d still call dolyak crap.

A time machine takes them back in time to the discussions about creating the sylvari so they can hear it? They’d claim hoax.

I’ve dealt with this kind of thing before in a CS capacity – there is no satisfaction possible.

Let me counter your tirade with my own broad assumptions. Either they planned it from the start and somewhere down the road they lost couple of pieces, or they experimented and improvised like they did for every other bit of content for ~2 years since release.

Whether there is a conspiracy theory to cover it all up (I suspect illuminati) or simple oversight doesn’t really matter in the end. Somebody made a doodoo on the floor, but nobody brought the broom, so let’s just move away from the smell and try to keep the path ahead of us clear.

Freeelancer.2860:

Let me counter your tirade with my own broad assumptions. Either they planned it from the start and somewhere down the road they lost couple of pieces, or they experimented and improvised like they did for every other bit of content for ~2 years since release.

Or they knew where they wanted to take it, but didn’t have a firm roadmap. I’ve seen writers do that. Especially even celebrated and honored writers like Tolkein, Rowling, Williams . . . or any D&D GM worth their salt.

The fact they have more than one writer in the credits? Tells me unequivocally there was more than one point of view on the story, at the very least one from each writer. There may be a unified document saying what the general points are to hit on the plotline but I guarantee not everyone has the same idea of how to get there.

Whether there is a conspiracy theory to cover it all up (I suspect illuminati) or simple oversight doesn’t really matter in the end. Somebody made a doodoo on the floor, but nobody brought the broom, so let’s just move away from the smell and try to keep the path ahead of us clear.

Eh, I barely care – I’ve seen worse patches over continuity in the past or professed “we had it planned out” which stank worse than this one. (I’m an MTG player here, I got to witness a lot of crap happen to justify a big long plot arc so they could add novels to their products.)

Plus, the story will go how it will go. It’s much more fun to sit back and save my creative ideas for my own fanfic than to try to rewrite canon to make it so Ascalon never fell.

Angel said it was planned. Now you can believe her or not, but there is nothing more to it. Saying you don’t believe it, because you don’t like how the story turned out, frankly, that’s just wasted energy.

I think a discussion worth having is, if players dislike the way sylvari as minions was handled, don’t deny that it was intended or caving to fan theories, discuss why people think it’s an inferior plot outcome, especially if that’s backed up by lore/story difficulties (as most of Konig’s points deal with). People are going to put their personal feelings and opinions into their posts (that’s part of being human and being passionate about the GW2 story) so long as it abides by the forum code of conduct.

I’m not bothered by the reveal, there are so many interesting questions raised by it.

• How does the nightmare fit into the picture?
• Why do sylvari have free will? Is it nature (a replication of the forgotten spell) or nurture (the Pale Tree grew powerful away from Mordremoth’s will and is able to protect the minds of her children through a combination of her magic and the virtues from Ventari)?
• What does this mean for sylvari from other trees?

And a host of other questions. Many of the issues with them as minions canon can still be dealt with once we learn more (I think it was a premature fan conclusion that all Elder Dragon minions work in the same way and are too similar to each other, but I would respect a post arguing the properties of dragon corruption and minions sharing similar rules is valuable and weakened by sylvari breaking the norm).

Season 2 has made me concerned about efforts to expand on sylvari lore (and Scarlet’s general existence) but I am optimistic about the future, but more importantly for now – interested in revisiting the past with the information we now know.

I don’t believe for one second they planned this from the start. It was clearly fanservice because people whined to get their way, and now they’re making up excuses.

Shiren.9532:

And a host of other questions. Many of the issues with them as minions canon can still be dealt with once we learn more (I think it was a premature fan conclusion that all Elder Dragon minions work in the same way and are too similar to each other, but I would respect a post arguing the properties of dragon corruption and minions sharing similar rules is valuable and weakened by sylvari breaking the norm).

Thing is, we can compare Mordrem with other Dragon minions and see they all share the same similarities….. except for that one particular type of minions who are completely different then anything else their master or any other dragon has presented so far.

Is it possible to cram some sort of an explanation into lore? Sure. But it still won’t be consistent with the rules GM’s set for their own world and you’ll get the same feeling you get from LOST or Mass Effect 3, or any other case of “let’s break the universe for this one particular instance of dramatic reveal” followed by a deus ex machina explanation.
It just tastes sour.

Mental Paradox.3845:

I don’t believe for one second they planned this from the start. It was clearly fanservice because people whined to get their way, and now they’re making up excuses.

If it wasn’t planned from the start, why would people speculate about it from the start? Those speculations must have come from something.

Shiren.9532:

First all, Angel’s comment should be enough.

If it’s not, Colin Johanson talked about the sylvari origin on a recent Points of Interest and he mentions that Ree Soesbee was planning it since the beginning. He talked about how Ree was revising and revising the tutorial and sylvari personal story text, trying to make sure that they didn’t give away too much of the secret. It has very much been a core part of sylvari design since before GW2 launched, it’s not a PR response, it’s not a change made by a writer you don’t consider credible, it was planned by one of the people who was integral to imagining both GW1 and GW2.

Honestly, Angel’s comment isn’t enough for me. I haven’t watched the PoIs though. It seems there was more information revealed there from what you’re saying. Again, I have no real option but to take it at face value.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, about the people this is aimed at . . . nobody in that group cares. If they don’t believe it on one red post, they’re not going to believe it on two. Or four. Or ninety. They already have their minds made up….
I’ve dealt with this kind of thing before in a CS capacity – there is no satisfaction possible.

Don’t put words in my mouth dude. I can see that you’re fed up already but we’ve never actually discussed anything together so don’t be a jerk to me based on your past experiences.

I do care actually. For me, the Red Poster is more important than the Red Post. Ms. McCoy has been involved in narrative fumble after narrative fumble. When it comes to Red Posts from her or Colin, I expect PR. There are however Red Posts that I really appreciate for their candor and openness. Not every employee of a company speaks with the same weight in my opinion. Some

I don’t have my mind made up. If I did, I wouldn’t still be around.

From my perspective, it seems like something they came up with recently. I don’t think they’ve had a very solid idea of where this game was going and I think it really showed. Seems a lot of folks really enjoyed taking the kitten out of Konig but the guy does know this game’s lore. Honestly, I think Anet fumbled with the narrative, lacked consistent writing, and as a result we have a number of lore inconsistencies and retcons.

Freeelancer.2860:

Is it possible to cram some sort of an explanation into lore? Sure. But it still won’t be consistent with the rules GM’s set for their own world and you’ll get the same feeling you get from LOST or Mass Effect 3, or any other case of “let’s break the universe for this one particular instance of dramatic reveal” followed by a deus ex machina explanation.
It just tastes sour.

This is the result of these narrative fumbles in my opinion. Now, I hope that they have a strong direction now. I think they do and I think that’s what is going to take center stage at their PAX South announcement. I stand by saying that they did break lore left and right. I’m not saying this to incite and argument but I’m saying it in the hopes that they are in a place they’re happy with (lore wise) and the story can continue now within these new parameters.

Shiren.9532:

• How does the nightmare fit into the picture?
• Why do sylvari have free will? Is it nature (a replication of the forgotten spell) or nurture (the Pale Tree grew powerful away from Mordremoth’s will and is able to protect the minds of her children through a combination of her magic and the virtues from Ventari)?
• What does this mean for sylvari from other trees?

1. I’m not so sure about nightmare anymore. I used to think that Nightmare was dragon corruption for Sylvari. When theories about a Jungle Dragon started being thrown around some years back, I thought that the Dragon was responsible for Nightmare.

2. Well, we know that Malyck wasn’t born to the Pale Tree. If he remains un-corrupted, we can surmise that it’s likely that Ventari’s nurture had little to do with Sylvari protection from Mordremoth. Past that, I’ve only really got my own theories but nothing very strong yet.

Saint.5647:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, about the people this is aimed at . . . nobody in that group cares. If they don’t believe it on one red post, they’re not going to believe it on two. Or four. Or ninety. They already have their minds made up….
I’ve dealt with this kind of thing before in a CS capacity – there is no satisfaction possible.

Don’t put words in my mouth dude. I can see that you’re fed up already but we’ve never actually discussed anything together so don’t be a jerk to me based on your past experiences.

Not fed up with this in particular, more fed up with it in general across the board. As for being a jerk . . .

I do care actually. For me, the Red Poster is more important than the Red Post. Ms. McCoy has been involved in narrative fumble after narrative fumble. When it comes to Red Posts from her or Colin, I expect PR. There are however Red Posts that I really appreciate for their candor and openness. Not every employee of a company speaks with the same weight in my opinion. Some

Pot. Kettle. Black.

A member of the writing team, who have access to the design we don’t know about, told you “yes it was planned”. Then someone higher up had mentioned it was planned out. You’re basically saying “it doesn’t matter what they say because I don’t respect them”, no matter how you spin it about ‘narrative disasters’.

Again, you have only two options here. You believe them or you don’t.

I don’t have my mind made up. If I did, I wouldn’t still be around.

That’s not what your above segment showed. You have your conclusions about who spoke up, and why you shouldn’t believe them.

From my perspective, it seems like something they came up with recently. I don’t think they’ve had a very solid idea of where this game was going and I think it really showed. Seems a lot of folks really enjoyed taking the kitten out of Konig but the guy does know this game’s lore. Honestly, I think Anet fumbled with the narrative, lacked consistent writing, and as a result we have a number of lore inconsistencies and retcons.

Honestly, Konig’s little outburst? Been there personally so I get it. I don’t care about that as much as I care about this head-in-the-sand crap of “well no matter what they say it’s obvious they’re lying again”. Even when they both have little reason to lie about this (considering they’ve been saying they listen to the players and been challenged constantly on “how?”), and once more . . . they have access to drafts we probably won’t ever see.

I think the writers have problems with the narrative too, but mostly because there’s a team putting each part together separately rather than a single person.

I think the writing has been inconsistent, notably in how the difference in focus can be seen between Season 1 and Season 2 – one is more tightly plotted than the other yet moves slowly in comparison.

But lore inconsistencies and retcons are part of the whole business of proceeding outside the initial story. Again, these are things seasoned and respected writers have happen just as much.

Frankly? I’m not pleased with . . . again . . . one theory with limited evidence becomes real. But I can live with it because that’s where the story is going and there’s a limited amount of problems in it. Especially since, as noted – we don’t have enough information on some of the answers let alone to ask the right questions.

Personally, I do believe it was planned. But like most of the storytelling in GW2, it was executed poorly. Maybe Season 3 will be done better.

If you want to argue about the story, of what you liked or what you didn’t like. That’s fine. If you want to discuss lore inconsistencies, that is great. It should be discussed. But not believing the words of a writer, simply because you don’t like their work, well that’s pointless. What does that achieve?

lordkrall.7241:

Mental Paradox.3845:

I don’t believe for one second they planned this from the start. It was clearly fanservice because people whined to get their way, and now they’re making up excuses.

If it wasn’t planned from the start, why would people speculate about it from the start? Those speculations must have come from something.

Ahem. Have you not read any of my wondrous and colorful speculations? As wondrous and colorful as they are, any one of them could have become just as canon as the minion origin with only a few pen/key strokes from the right people. And then folks here would be like Captain Gloval in Booby Trap: “It was so OBVIOUS!”

Guaranteed.

Shiren.9532:

• How does the nightmare fit into the picture?

Personally I have said in the past that it could be Mordremoth testing the boundaries of the dream. An unknown invading force spilling corruption would of course turn a happy go-lucky dream into a nightmare. But being how resourceful the Pale Tree was, the Nightmare really never had a face which is why I think Caithe erronously attributed the tutorial to imply Zhaitan – a simple flaw of misinterpretation done by a notable character. Which I actually really liked.

• Why do sylvari have free will? Is it nature (a replication of the forgotten spell) or nurture (the Pale Tree grew powerful away from Mordremoth’s will and is able to protect the minds of her children through a combination of her magic and the virtues from Ventari)?

This begs the question of whether Mordremoth was meant to awaken earlier. That could imply that the Nightmare was actually Mordremoth whispering, because he couldn’t shout, “Yo, were my plant people at? Lets get this party started, what gives!” If he were to be delayed, that Scarlet’s actions were the sole purpose of setting everything in motion, it would also suggest why the Forgotten had any role to play in that area – maybe they were testing whether they could subdue an Elder Dragon or not. If it were true that Mordremoth was “late” then it would suggest that the Forgotten had the right idea.

That being said, simply put – I think it’s a matter of parenting. The Pale Tree was just raised over ideals that were different from their original purpose. But then what of the other seeds, I ask?

• What does this mean for sylvari from other trees?

Precisely.

Squee.7829:

Why he took the seed doesn’t have to have some deep or meaningful story behind it. He has a little girl. Little girls like flowers. He figured “rare exotic plant seed. This will probably be something cool to show her!” And took it. Then when he found her dead, planting her would-be gift on her grave seems like exactly the kind of sentimental action a guy in his position would take. I mean, people put flowers on graves all the time, even if they are normally fully grown and well documented. Not an unknown seed.

I can see what you’re saying but that would mean that the Pale Tree is basically an accident – a man stumbles into a cave, finds an interesting seed, then as a grieving father plants it over his family’s graves.

It still seems like Ronan might have known something more. In the player story section involving Malyck Amaranda tells Trahearne (paraphrasing here) that Ronan knew something he didn’t reveal but it could still be found in the dream.

It’s interesting – I hope more about this is revealed.

Michael.8562:

I can see what you’re saying but that would mean that the Pale Tree is basically an accident – a man stumbles into a cave, finds an interesting seed, then as a grieving father plants it over his family’s graves.

My opinion? I think that’s exactly what it was, an accident. See a bunch of monsters defending a clutch of seeds and are willing to die to protect them. Why not. They were just seeds to him but he had no telling what role the Sylvari would actually play nor where the seeds came from.

So, someone that is basically writing the lore is not a credible source for said lore, because you don’t think she is a good writer?
How does that even make any sort of sense?
Who would be a more credible source than one of those creating it?

Yeah, by that same token I should go on ranting about GRR Martin should just quit writing because he kills off all of my favorite characters thus far (with a few exceptions) and I think that is bad form.

I believe the Heart of Thorns revelation of the Sylvari as minions was planned from the beginning and is actually the reason for the ‘lore inconsistencies’. The Sylvari story strikes me as being written backwards, with the HoT revelation being written first and their creation story designed to fuel speculation about their true nature.

@Psientist That, I don’t believe, at all. For the lore inconsistencies to exist, that suggests to me that there was a lack of communication in the team at some point. This wouldn’t surprise me, either, as this is the kind of reveal that they wouldn’t want to leak by accident, so keeping it intentionally hidden protects us from a fired programmer spoiling the story, but it could lead to uninformed team members making poor decisions in writing dialogue or making hotfixes.

I once asked a question on StackExchange about the lack of female Dredge in-game even though the lore supports that they exist. The response I got was from a former Anet team member (by the way, feel free to give him some more upvotes on his answer since an official source definitely deserves more than that!) who lightly suggested that Anet’s writing team sort of winged it on the Dredge and the Skritt.

My belief is that the team focuses on the big picture at first and doesn’t drill down deeper until the time comes to make content for it. I doubt the Mordrem were designed at the same time as the Icebrood, or Vinewrath at the same time as the Claw of Jormag. I think the concern at the time was to get the game into our hands so we wouldn’t have to wait any longer.

I believe they had the basic ideas, but very few of the details. Personally, I’m fine with that as long as they fix the existing lore or prove that none of it is incorrect and we’ve just misinterpreted some of it. I’m just along for the ride.

CureForLiving.5360:

Would be nice if we could just get a nice bit long list of these inconsistencies. If only we had someone who could do it… too bad Koning is seemingly leaving us he seems like the sort of person who could do something like that.

Most of the so called lore inconsistencies are people asking a question, creating an answer for the question, and then complaining when the game doesn’t use their answer.

I think a lot of people should just relax and enjoy the whole host of new theories that can be developed now.

CureForLiving.5360:

Would be nice if we could just get a nice bit long list of these inconsistencies. If only we had someone who could do it… too bad Koning is seemingly leaving us he seems like the sort of person who could do something like that.

Konig and I started working on a “Lore discrepancy mapping project” some time ago.

This is still a community work in progress (feel free to join), and is not yet ready for presentation. Me and Konig have a longer list on my personal wikipage of things yet to be added.
We’re taking our time with it, and making sure it gets presented in a very consise and strictly fact-based, quote on quote way.

When it’s ready (no copyright infringement intended), we’ll present the full list here on the forums for both players and developers. BobbyStein knows about the project, and it’s all a collaborative work between players and devs to rule out any inconsistencies.

Titus.4285:

DaShi.1368:

Would be nice if we could just get a nice bit long list of these inconsistencies. If only we had someone who could do it… too bad Koning is seemingly leaving us he seems like the sort of person who could do something like that.

Konig and I started working on a “Lore discrepancy mapping project” some time ago.

This is still a community work in progress (feel free to join), and is not yet ready for presentation. Me and Konig have a longer list on my personal wikipage of things yet to be added.
We’re taking our time with it, and making sure it gets presented in a very consise and strictly fact-based, quote on quote way.

When it’s ready (no copyright infringement intended), we’ll present the full list here on the forums for both players and developers. BobbyStein knows about the project, and it’s all a collaborative work between players and devs to rule out any inconsistencies.

Thank you Titus, this is an important project. It also probably helps the devs more than us, since they can get a hammer and chisel out and work on rounding edges which didn’t fit.

These lore discrepancies seem minor to me, as a newcomer. They largely seem to consist of unreliable speakers and some wrong dates. All in all, not a big deal.

I’ve written lore on a team of writers before (but not for this game). Minor errors do come up occasionally. These don’t seem so bad to me.

ekarat.1085:

These lore discrepancies seem minor to me, as a newcomer. They largely seem to consist of unreliable speakers and some wrong dates. All in all, not a big deal.

I’ve written lore on a team of writers before (but not for this game). Minor errors do come up occasionally. These don’t seem so bad to me.

The problem is that to a lore-fanatic, there is no such thing as a minor error. When people enjoy something enough to get REALLY into it, even the smallest breach of the universe is seen as a catastrophic end of times type deal.

It’s a reaction born out of love, so you’ve got to respect them for their commitment, but boy do they get old after a while.

ekarat.1085:

Minor errors do come up occasionally. These don’t seem so bad to me.

mtpelion.4562:

The problem is that to a lore-fanatic (…) even the smallest breach of the universe is seen as a catastrophic end of times type deal. …but boy do they get old after a while.

You’re both right. We are fanatic about the lore, I’ll gladly admit it
The whole point of this “mapping project” though, is not to criticize ANet – it’s to help them. Let there be no doubt about that.

P.S. There are lots more, and more serious ones (work in progress and all that…).
I just added one for Gadd’s book, and that’s a major one in the eyes of a lore fanatic

I believe that Anet owes it to the fans to make sure the story is the highest quality it can be. If there are “lore bugs,” I just want them to fix them!

Koviko.3248:

I believe that Anet owes it to the fans to make sure the story is the highest quality it can be. If there are “lore bugs,” I just want them to fix them!

So . . . you’re asking for more retcons.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Koviko.3248:

I believe that Anet owes it to the fans to make sure the story is the highest quality it can be. If there are “lore bugs,” I just want them to fix them!

So . . . you’re asking for more retcons.

@Tobias: I think we all – you included – want consistency first and foremost. When you have two conflicting sources, you have to edit one of them. Which may resuly in 1) a retcon, 2) changing “new lore” to meet “old lore”. I don’t think Koviko tried to pick a side.

@Everyone: I have to take most of the blame for leading us off-topic in the first place – but still; guys, let’s try to move the discussion back on topic now.

Titus.4285:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Koviko.3248:

I believe that Anet owes it to the fans to make sure the story is the highest quality it can be. If there are “lore bugs,” I just want them to fix them!

So . . . you’re asking for more retcons.

@Tobias: I think we all – you included – want consistency first and foremost. When you have two conflicting sources, you have to edit one of them. Which may resuly in 1) a retcon, 2) changing “new” lore to meet “old” lore.

@Everyone: I have to take most of the blame for leading us off-topic in the first place – but still; guys, let’s try to move the discussion back on topic now.

A retcon is still a retcon, in your reply. Consistency is going to require a nice belt sander of a retcon here and there.

As much as people decry retcons, I don’t know if it’s really understood what they are. “Retroactive continuity” is whenever something is changed to fit a new paradigm of continuity – doing a ‘fix’ to bring everything smoothly and make new lore fit into old lore? That’s still doing at least a retcon.

Own up and understand what you’re asking for, people Retcons aren’t always a bad thing. Sometimes they just fix what was . . . really broken.

(For example! Making “One More Day” not exist in continuity anymore is, in fact, a retcon )

Hehe, then we agree Tobias: “retcons aren’t always a bad thing”.
I just thought your question to Koviko looked a bit loaded … I remembered the Reclaim Ascalon thread [cough], and I kinda forgot which side you were on. :P

Titus.4285:

Hehe, then we agree Tobias: “retcons aren’t always a bad thing”.
I just thought your question to Koviko looked a bit loaded … I remembered the Reclaim Ascalon thread [cough], and I kinda forgot which side you were on. :P

I’m on the side trying to fine-tune the asura-launching catapult for mass production. After all, we can do a lot of damage sending asura wariors into . . . I mean, over . . . walls.

. . . it also wasn’t a question so much as a statement of what, to me, looked obvious.

I was going to stick with the “lore bugs that slipped through QA,” but yes, retcons. lol

@Tobias: I think that you’re wrong when claiming that if someone doesn’t trust one post by Anet, they won’t believe any post by Anet on the same subject matter. Credibility is an entirely subjective matter in the firstplace, and most people don’t look at companies as individuals, but they look at the individuals in the company.

Simply put, a PR folk will be considered more credible on announcements for the future of the company, but less credible when dealing with bad publicity – because it’s their job to make the company look as good as possible. Angel and Bobby have both played “damage control” on the forums for every single Season 2 release (that alone says something to me), and Angel did so even for Season 1 to explain things that they didn’t put into the game (be it intentional or due to lack of time for development or whathaveyou). This, to some, makes them less credible than if Ree or Jeff were to come out here – or even if Peter Fries and Matthew Medina stated the same thing. But similarly, some will view all Anet personnel equally credible, or find that Angel is more credible. It’s entirely subjective. So no, just because they don’t believe Angel’s statement doesn’t mean they won’t trust any statement that says the same. Unless they’re very short-sighted and thick-headed.

All in all, my opinion on the matter is “if it was planned from the beginning, then they went too far to try to keep the fact hidden, because if you look you can find a dozen differences between mordrem and sylvari alone.”

@Koviko and Titus: On retcons, they are not innately bad. It’s really the ones that create inconsistency rather than those that fix inconsistency that are bad. Like, for example, a certain calendar change or the removal of a certain entire plot of the Personal Story and re-ordering some latter steps are both terrible retcons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All in all, my opinion on the matter is “if it was planned from the beginning, then they went too far to try to keep the fact hidden, because if you look you can find a dozen differences between mordrem and sylvari alone.”

My opinion is that you can’t deal with the fact that sylvari are just different and that’s it – reason might be the Pale Tree spawning them in the human image, after all she is their creator, not the dragon. And the Pale Tree herself was planted on human graves + Ventari taking care of it. Knowing you from your posts, you would probably say that only Altar of Glaust and the forgotten ritual cleanses corruption, but we already saw with Mawdrey that it’s not true and there are other ways of doing that, which means there may be many ways of undoing the corruption that we are just not aware of

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Tobias: I think that you’re wrong when claiming that if someone doesn’t trust one post by Anet, they won’t believe any post by Anet on the same subject matter. Credibility is an entirely subjective matter in the firstplace, and most people don’t look at companies as individuals, but they look at the individuals in the company.

Simply put, a PR folk will be considered more credible on announcements for the future of the company, but less credible when dealing with bad publicity – because it’s their job to make the company look as good as possible. Angel and Bobby have both played “damage control” on the forums for every single Season 2 release (that alone says something to me), and Angel did so even for Season 1 to explain things that they didn’t put into the game (be it intentional or due to lack of time for development or whathaveyou). This, to some, makes them less credible than if Ree or Jeff were to come out here – or even if Peter Fries and Matthew Medina stated the same thing. But similarly, some will view all Anet personnel equally credible, or find that Angel is more credible. It’s entirely subjective. So no, just because they don’t believe Angel’s statement doesn’t mean they won’t trust any statement that says the same. Unless they’re very short-sighted and thick-headed.

“Very thick-headed” describes a lot of people here on the forums. (Myself included.)

But honestly, I don’t think Ree or Jeff would come into this matter at all. For one, I think Jeff is too busy to find time to do so, and I don’t know what Ree is doing but I’m sure its likewise. Though one of the things some writers in my generation were told in the early days of the Internet was “don’t engage in discussions about your plot on the Internet”.

But I still stand by my earlier, somewhat cranky, post. I don’t think it would matter who came down here and said it. You, personally, might revise your thoughts. I expect the tune of the forum would not change all that much at all. And as such – it’s a waste of their time to do so, and from there? I don’t expect to see it.

All in all, my opinion on the matter is “if it was planned from the beginning, then they went too far to try to keep the fact hidden, because if you look you can find a dozen differences between mordrem and sylvari alone.”

And? All minions are not created equal – Destroyers have evolved as well in the last era or so. They act and for the most part look different than their original counterparts when you look past the “constructs of magma and stone”. The Great Destroyer did not resemble Glint, or Tequatl, or even the Nornbear . . .

(The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag on the other hand . . . look a lot alike.)

That’s the other thing, the Nornbear did not resemble or behave, or have powers anything like Icebrood. It could travel through the Mists. It was an intelligent stalker instead of an almost-mindless force. It doesn’t even resemble what Icebrood now resemble.

But the Nornbear and Icebrood both trace their origin of power back to Jormag.

Same deal with sylvari and mordrem. Same origin, different suite of powers and appearance.

Wow this got heated.

I want to briefly point out that, though I believe the origin of the Sylvari was planned since GW1, I do think think that there were problems with how the story eventually got here.

I think they could have gotten to this point in the story arc in 6 months, if they had cut out all of the filler, instead of the 28 months that it has taken.

They dragged us along for far too long and that has caused some rage, at least from me. I still think it is a neat twist.

As it was mentioned before, I think the fact that the Pale Tree seed was moved might be a big influence on why the Pale Tree wasn’t heavily influenced by Mordremoth until he started waking up. This would also help explain why the Sylvari are so different. They’re not Mordrem made life-forms. They’re free and independent Pale Tree created life forms.

Also, I feel like one should consider that Mordremoth is fairly unique among the Elder dragons. So far, he’s the only one that actually creates living minions out of living organisms. There’s a lot of variability in plants. Destroyers are all rocks and magma. Consistent, durable, and sturdy. Not a lot of variability other than what shape you can make them. Same with purple crystal monsters. Undead are arguably organic enough, but long past the time where they would do things like adapt and evolve to things, not that they woud need to. If they die, just resurrect and try again. It’s all about bio-mass with zombies! And we have no idea what Bubbles’ minions will be like.

The above being considered, even if the Pale Tree WAS a general/high ranking Mord minion this entire time, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sylvari STILL looked wildly different from other Mordrem. She’s not a construct as much as she is a living organic thing.

Psientist.6437:

I believe the Heart of Thorns revelation of the Sylvari as minions was planned from the beginning and is actually the reason for the ‘lore inconsistencies’. The Sylvari story strikes me as being written backwards, with the HoT revelation being written first and their creation story designed to fuel speculation about their true nature.

IMO, “lore inconsistencies” is turning into a cop-out coming from people who just didn’t like misleading themselves into believing a false outcome. I mean, being a supporter of the theory since day 1, as rewarding as it is, I can look back at all the past topics and nod saying, “Yes, it was pretty obvious.”

A lot better than Sylvari being Tyria’s Immune System against all Elder Dragons, were you to ask me.

Titus.4285:

DaShi.1368:

Would be nice if we could just get a nice bit long list of these inconsistencies. If only we had someone who could do it… too bad Koning is seemingly leaving us he seems like the sort of person who could do something like that.

Konig and I started working on a “Lore discrepancy mapping project” some time ago.

DaShi didn’t say that I did :P
But nice work!

Koviko.3248:

I believe that Anet owes it to the fans to make sure the story is the highest quality it can be. If there are “lore bugs,” I just want them to fix them!

Exactly! That’s why I like the lore discrepancies list. However it does seems rather short.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So . . . you’re asking for more retcons.

Retcons aren’t bad. Retcons just mean that the writers can’t see into the future and all knowing about their own lore. As time goes on errors occur, to the writers decide to take the lore into a more interesting directs and inherently retcons are needed.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“Very thick-headed” describes a lot of people here on the forums. (Myself included.)

I like to believe being thick-headed is rather advantageous, it protects the brain you see (yes yes I know it’s a metaphor :P)

BobbyStein.2315:

This makes me very happy because it allows people to channel their energy into something positive—working together to improve the game. Remember that continuity error that went live in episode 7? That was a bug, a mistake. Someone pointed it out. We investigated it and then corrected it.

I must say this rather impressed me. For all the talk of following an agile approach I never actually felt that ANet was following a agile approach in terms of lore, given the policy of release and only minor bug fixes to mechanical aspects of content. Actually being willing to go back and improve and expand on existing lore I think is the best way forward, also it allows me to hold out hope for further expansions to the dialog trees (give me more dialog options please! )