Guild Wars 2

What happens to sylvari bodies after death? I would assume there’d be some plant-like withering and drying up, after a while, if they are truly made of vegetable matter.

Before that, though, how long after the moment of death is a sylvari considered ‘really most sincerely dead’? As in, no amount of resuscitation will avail? Does CPR work on a sylvari?

In regard to sylvari breathing: is it carbon dioxide in and oxygen out? Or do they emulate humans in this regard (as in so many others) and ‘breathe’ in oxygen?

What do sylvari do with their dead?

Further study:

Are sylvari ‘warm-sapped’ or ‘cold-sapped’? Do they generate their own heat, like mammals, or must they rely on environmental factors? How cold/hot can they get before suffering damage?

Is the Pale Tree subject to the change of seasons? That is, do her leaves change colors in the autumn and fall (deciduous), or is she an ‘evergreen’ (coniferous) type of tree? Or something else? Is there a temperature threshold below which the Pale Tree will suffer damage if not protected?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_tree

Bonus round: what happened to Scarlet’s body? Was it buried? Burned? Bronzed?

I’m not sure there’s much medical science in Tyria as it is. We have magic. I’d imagine their glow fades.

Tachenon.5270:

Bonus round: what happened to Scarlet’s body? Was it buried? Burned? Bronzed?

She was beheaded and Queen Jennah placed her head on a spike in King’s L… Div. Reach.

Does that mean Jennah is Joffrey, and Annise is the Hound?

Freeelancer.2860:

Does that mean Jennah is Joffrey, and Annise is the Hound?

No, Canach is the Hound, Anise is Varys.

TELL ME you can’t see her going “for the realm Captain Thackeray” . . .

Tachenon.5270:

What happens to sylvari bodies after death? I would assume there’d be some plant-like withering and drying up, after a while, if they are truly made of vegetable matter.

Before that, though, how long after the moment of death is a sylvari considered ‘really most sincerely dead’? As in, no amount of resuscitation will avail? Does CPR work on a sylvari?

Probably not, though possibly so. CPR (cardio-pulmonary resuscitation) is stimulating the heart to beat again when it’s stopped. It’s not bringing the dead back to life, no matter what television tells you. I’d say tentatively, only if the sylvari in question died in a way that CPR could save a human . . . let’s just say human since it’s unknown how charr or asura physiology relates (asura might have two hearts or something).

And further, only if there is a 1:1 correlation between sylvari organs and our own in form, placement, and function in the case of “a heart”. I have my sincere doubts but . . .

In regard to sylvari breathing: is it carbon dioxide in and oxygen out? Or do they emulate humans in this regard (as in so many others) and ‘breathe’ in oxygen?

I picture it in my head as them breathing more because they emulate other living bodies that closely. It’s not strictly required but they do it anyway.

Are sylvari ‘warm-sapped’ or ‘cold-sapped’? Do they generate their own heat, like mammals, or must they rely on environmental factors? How cold/hot can they get before suffering damage?

Inconclusive but very unlikely they can generate their own heat like mammals.

Is the Pale Tree subject to the change of seasons? That is, do her leaves change colors in the autumn and fall (deciduous), or is she an ‘evergreen’ (coniferous) type of tree? Or something else? Is there a temperature threshold below which the Pale Tree will suffer damage if not protected?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_tree

Better question – is the climate where the Grove exists at a location where trees are subject to such things have not developed to having tropical climate all year round? Or sub-tropical, as opposed to ‘subarctic’ like most of the Shiverpeaks or something else . . .?

Bonus round: what happened to Scarlet’s body? Was it buried? Burned? Bronzed?

Probably dissolved in whatever spike of energy ran through the Breachmaker.

Tachenon.5270:

Are sylvari ‘warm-sapped’ or ‘cold-sapped’? Do they generate their own heat, like mammals, or must they rely on environmental factors?

If I remember right, from reading Ghosts of Ascalon, they are neither warm nor cold.

As far as cold or hot, it’s probably close to that of a humans levels. Normal plants wilt when it’s too hot, or freeze/die when it’s too cold, so I wouldn’t expect Sylvari to act differently. On the wiki it says that a sylvari in the grove complains that Hoelbrak is too cold.

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them. It can work on a mordrem though!

As for warm/cold-blooded, I’m not sure but GoA says their bodies is colder than humans at least – that there is “no animal warmth to [their] flesh” (page 5). Given that they’re plants, and they have sap for blood, I’m not sure they can be categorized as either warm-blooded or cold-blooded. We do, however, know they feel the cold – there’s a sylvari in the Grove talking about she disliked Hoelbrak for the cold (but this is not universal – it’s a subjective thing like with humans enjoying heat or cold, as there is a sylvari in Wayfarer Foothills, iirc, which doesn’t mind the cold).

As for sylvari death – per Killeen in GoA, her body began to wither within minutes of death. So I think that deterioration of their body is likely immediate and as such a good tell for whether or not they’re dead.

Someone needs to tell that to the sylvari who sit dead on the ground at Tequatl waiting to be resurrected.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them. It can work on a mordrem though!

That’s a good find. Yet another item to add to the list of why Sylvari and Mordrem are nothing alike.

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Tachenon.5270:

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Some vital part which functions either as a heart or with similar “reliance” from the body’s workings.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Some vital part which functions either as a heart or with similar “reliance” from the body’s workings.

then mordrem heart could just be a term given to mordrem “parts” that function like a heart.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Some vital part which functions either as a heart or with similar “reliance” from the body’s workings.

Ah! Then…

“A difference which makes no difference is no difference at all.” ~ William James

“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet…” ~ Juliet, by way of Bill Shakespeare

“Hmm.” ~ kitten nio Hall

Pretty much Tachenon.

Lilyandra.1465:

Normal plants wilt when it’s too hot, or freeze/die when it’s too cold

Eh… depends on what you mean by normal. Plenty of trees can survive long winters and hot summers across the world.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them.

Ha more evidence that the Sylvari are heartless monsters! :P

Equilibriator.8741:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

S2 SPOILERS below, just in case.

Don’t look, Ethel!

If sylvari don’t have hearts, what vital organ did Caithe stab to kill Wynne so quickly?

Some vital part which functions either as a heart or with similar “reliance” from the body’s workings.

then mordrem heart could just be a term given to mordrem “parts” that function like a heart.

Most likely. We’re dealing with plant monsters that are unlike your usual every day plant so mammalian terminology to refer to plant creatures parts seems possible. After all Sylvari have skin, muscle and hair, even though they technically don’t.

Koviko.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them. It can work on a mordrem though!

That’s a good find. Yet another item to add to the list of why Sylvari and Mordrem are nothing alike.

And yet another reason the “Sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions” reveal was stupid. And they claim to have intended that from the beginning, eh?

They’ve never claimed Sylvari and Mordrem to be the same though.
They didn’t say “We were meant to be Mordrem”.

Why couldn’t Sylvari and Mordrem be TOTALLY different, yet both be serving the same Elder Dragon – and in totally different ways?

(not saying the reveal is problem free, but I think a lot of you tries very hard to create/escalate problems that really isn’t that big).
The main issue I guess is that all the previous minions we’ve seen shares the common factor of being extremely 2-dimensional. Is it really that bad that we’re now getting “minions” that’s a little more 3D?

I’m basically with you, Titus. I agree that the Sylvari (and the Pale Tree species) are minions of Mordremoth, but more as an enslaved race and not as corrupted minions, similar to the Mordrem or other minions like Risen, Icebrood or Destroyers. The Sylvari are more akin to the Sons of Svanir in that they (are meant to) serve the dragon, but are not “dragon minions” in the most literal sense.

Sons of Svanir aren’t corrupted nor do they come from the dragon.

The fact that they come from Mordremoth means that they fit one of the definitions for what a dragon minion is.

Titus.4285:

T
Why couldn’t Sylvari and Mordrem be TOTALLY different, yet both be serving the same Elder Dragon – and in totally different ways?

They could. Elder dragons could each have their own “creative moments”, and go about their business in their own way. For example, mouths and eyes of Zhaitan might be a unique type of minion that Zhaitan uses.

The main issue I guess is that all the previous minions we’ve seen shares the common factor of being extremely 2-dimensional. Is it really that bad that we’re now getting “minions” that’s a little more 3D?

That is part of it. Couple a slow build up to where we are now and with every example of a dragon minion having a particular set of features, and it isn’t surprising that we infer that all dragon minions have those properties. If they knew hey were going to take this long, I think they should have stuck a few more hints in the Sylvari personal stories, or when we were first introduced to Scarlet. S1 of the LS seemed to drag on forever without any juicy discoveries, something hinting at this would have been nice. Not enough that it’d ruin the destruction of the The Pact (if that was their plan all along).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sons of Svanir aren’t corrupted nor do they come from the dragon.

The fact that they come from Mordremoth means that they fit one of the definitions for what a dragon minion is.

Technically sylvari don’t come from the dragon either. They come from a seed which may have come from the dragon directly. But more than likely did not.

. . . also, the Sons of Svanir are probably closer to the Nightmare Court as far as things go. Not under the sway of a dragon directly but still devoted to them. Assuming, of course, the Nightmare is a semblance of Mordremoth’s influence . . . and discarding the technicality of “being of the dragon” vs “being noncorrupted”.

(Though the Sons of Svanir don’t quite look like typical norn, sometimes . . . )

SirMoogie.9263:

I think they should have stuck a few more hints in…

Idk about that. There are plenty of suggestive hints all around, which is why the theory has been so very popular for so long.
I understand why Ree wanted to make sure not to give away too much. Actually, I think they gave just about the perfect amount of hints away: enough to start some huge theory discussions, yet not enough for anyone to be able to prove the theory.
If anything I think they gave away too much.

The problem has been, as I see it is, that if you put the reveal in a “*GW-universal” perspective, it can feel very illogical and inconsistent.

If they made each set of Dragon and its “minions” more unique, I think it would be easier to understand and accept the reveal. Say if Zhaitan was still the Dragon of “zombie” mindless minion armies, while Jormag was nothing about minions at all: instead master of the elements wind and ice. Corrupting nature instead of mammals.
Primordus could have been unique in his own way, e.g. a summoner of fiery demons from the mists and the realms. Demons could be his way of, rather than corrupting us, inflicting fear and panic among us to make us fall apart.

Now, don’t take that as serious suggestions – there’s probably more fallacies in that description than there are words. My point though is that there are so many common factors between the minions we have – yet the Sylvari is something entirely else. They are unique. That’s not a negative by itself, but when all the other minions are not: it becomes very illogical.

TL;DR: I think the real problem about dragon minions is not the Sylvari, but rather all the other minions we know of.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Technically sylvari don’t come from the dragon either. They come from a seed which may have come from the dragon directly. But more than likely did not.

“We come from the jungle dragon.” -Wynne

Generations aside, they did – unlike the Sons of Svanir – come from Mordremoth.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(Though the Sons of Svanir don’t quite look like typical norn, sometimes . . . )

Those sons of svanir – most of them being shamans – likely are corrupted and have some semblance of intelligence to continue bringing in more converts.

Titus.4285:

If they made each set of Dragon and its “minions” more unique, I think it would be easier to understand and accept the reveal.

All they really needed to do was make mordrem more different than other dragon minions, and more similar to sylvari, in all honesty.

But mordrem function on the most basic levels we know just like the other dragon minions. Yet sylvari do not. And therein lies the inconsistency – not how they’re made, not their history, not their independence (though why such exists is a question, it is not impossible for other dragon minions, once purified, to have all of these things), but how they function (as in, what they eat, how their so-called “hive” mentality works, etc.).

Suffice it to say, I still think that they tried too hard to make sylvari not obviously dragon minions.

SirMoogie.9263:

Titus.4285:

T
Why couldn’t Sylvari and Mordrem be TOTALLY different, yet both be serving the same Elder Dragon – and in totally different ways?

They could. Elder dragons could each have their own “creative moments”, and go about their business in their own way. For example, mouths and eyes of Zhaitan might be a unique type of minion that Zhaitan uses.

The main issue I guess is that all the previous minions we’ve seen shares the common factor of being extremely 2-dimensional. Is it really that bad that we’re now getting “minions” that’s a little more 3D?

That is part of it. Couple a slow build up to where we are now and with every example of a dragon minion having a particular set of features, and it isn’t surprising that we infer that all dragon minions have those properties. If they knew hey were going to take this long, I think they should have stuck a few more hints in the Sylvari personal stories, or when we were first introduced to Scarlet. S1 of the LS seemed to drag on forever without any juicy discoveries, something hinting at this would have been nice. Not enough that it’d ruin the destruction of the The Pact (if that was their plan all along).

we get a hint in the aether path when scarlet refers to caithes secret and how she knows what it is.

how she knew that caithe knew i have no idea, because it was just something someone told her, there is no relation to scarlet and caithe. Scarlet learned from mordremoth, this has nothing to do with caithe learning it from someone by mouth.

(of course, it could be caithes pale tree dream to do something with the egg, whcih means mordremoth may have told scarlet about this, idk, tbh…i think caithe is going to become the egg)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Technically sylvari don’t come from the dragon either. They come from a seed which may have come from the dragon directly. But more than likely did not.

“We come from the jungle dragon.” -Wynne

Generations aside, they did – unlike the Sons of Svanir – come from Mordremoth.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(Though the Sons of Svanir don’t quite look like typical norn, sometimes . . . )

Those sons of svanir – most of them being shamans – likely are corrupted and have some semblance of intelligence to continue bringing in more converts.

Titus.4285:

If they made each set of Dragon and its “minions” more unique, I think it would be easier to understand and accept the reveal.

All they really needed to do was make mordrem more different than other dragon minions, and more similar to sylvari, in all honesty.

But mordrem function on the most basic levels we know just like the other dragon minions. Yet sylvari do not. And therein lies the inconsistency – not how they’re made, not their history, not their independence (though why such exists is a question, it is not impossible for other dragon minions, once purified, to have all of these things), but how they function (as in, what they eat, how their so-called “hive” mentality works, etc.).

Suffice it to say, I still think that they tried too hard to make sylvari not obviously dragon minions.

what if it was actually the pale tree that was supposed to be a dragon champion? glint had psychic powers, thats pretty special. Elder dragons tend to give their champions special abilities. What if the pale trees special ability was to be able to produce its own kind of intelligent minions that can be ingrained with a purpose that they will follow without hesitation, an intelligent lifeform that could carry out the elder dragons will with more tact than normal minions.

Like Glint seeing the good in life, the pale tree saw the good in her own minions and did not want to watch them all die for the sake of an elder dragon that only seeks destruction, her motherly bonds overcoming her slave like bond with mordremoth.

tl;dr perhaps the reason sylvari are different, is because they are not meant to be direct dragon minions, but a dragon champions secret weapon such as dragon champions seem to get.

In my opinion the Dream is the mind of Mordremoth and the Avatar of the Pale Tree is essentially creating a hidden area within Mordremoth’s mind that allows the Sylvari to grow without the interference of Mordremoth.

Zhaitan gained knowledge from those that he has corrupted and anything experienced by one of his risen is shared with him. The Dream acts in the same manner. Everything experienced by a Sylvari connected to the Dream is passed to the Dream which allows new sylvari to gain access to a small portion of that knowledge.

The problem is that when the PC Sylvari awakens they meet the Shadow of the Dragon. This means that Mordremoth is slightly aware that there is something within his vast mind that he is not fully aware of. As he awakens and gains further access to the area hidden by the Pale Tree he gains more access to the knowledge gathered by the Sylvari. Which would explain why Mordremoth knew about the gathering during Season 2.

Additionally, in my opinion the Sylvari are the minions and not specialized units. They are basically the equivalent to the regular risen of Zhaitan and are meant to be the shock troops. Much like the regular risen they would not be collecting, finding or eating magic. Zhaitan used specialized units to do such things, the Eyes and Mouth of Zhaitan, which he kept quite close to him within Orr or kept under tight guard.

Basically, for Mordremoth the Heart of the Maguuma Jungle is where we will find Mordremoth’s equivalent to Zhaitan’s Eyes and Mouths, if there is an equivalent. Though so far Mordremoth has been shown being able to gain magic from the ley lines through roots and tendrils. Though I would like to point out that neither the Dream Sylvari nor the Pale Tree has ever been corrupted so there would be no need to free them from corruption. The Nightmare Court is a little iffy though.

As for the OP, the Sylvari do not seem to mind the various temperatures as much as mammal-based species. Though they are aware of it and will often state the differences it does not actually cause negative repercussions. Based upon the various Sylvari NPC dialogue and comments in the Shiverpeak areas.

Corana.9837:

In my opinion the Dream is the mind of Mordremoth and the Avatar of the Pale Tree is essentially creating a hidden area within Mordremoth’s mind that allows the Sylvari to grow without the interference of Mordremoth.

Zhaitan gained knowledge from those that he has corrupted and anything experienced by one of his risen is shared with him. The Dream acts in the same manner. Everything experienced by a Sylvari connected to the Dream is passed to the Dream which allows new sylvari to gain access to a small portion of that knowledge.

The problem is that when the PC Sylvari awakens they meet the Shadow of the Dragon. This means that Mordremoth is slightly aware that there is something within his vast mind that he is not fully aware of. As he awakens and gains further access to the area hidden by the Pale Tree he gains more access to the knowledge gathered by the Sylvari. Which would explain why Mordremoth knew about the gathering during Season 2.

Additionally, in my opinion the Sylvari are the minions and not specialized units. They are basically the equivalent to the regular risen of Zhaitan and are meant to be the shock troops. Much like the regular risen they would not be collecting, finding or eating magic. Zhaitan used specialized units to do such things, the Eyes and Mouth of Zhaitan, which he kept quite close to him within Orr or kept under tight guard.

Basically, for Mordremoth the Heart of the Maguuma Jungle is where we will find Mordremoth’s equivalent to Zhaitan’s Eyes and Mouths, if there is an equivalent. Though so far Mordremoth has been shown being able to gain magic from the ley lines through roots and tendrils. Though I would like to point out that neither the Dream Sylvari nor the Pale Tree has ever been corrupted so there would be no need to free them from corruption. The Nightmare Court is a little iffy though.

As for the OP, the Sylvari do not seem to mind the various temperatures as much as mammal-based species. Though they are aware of it and will often state the differences it does not actually cause negative repercussions. Based upon the various Sylvari NPC dialogue and comments in the Shiverpeak areas.

aren’t the tendrils and vines just doing the same thing as zhaitains mouth?

i think each dragon has this in common : basic minions, champion/s with special trait, a way of consuming magic and smaller dragons as minions.

in other words, the shadow of the dragon is just like the many dragons you kill when assaulting zhaitan and thus there are many more where it came from.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All they really needed to do was make mordrem more different than other dragon minions, and more similar to sylvari, in all honesty.

Wouldn’t that remove the whole mystery though. Part of the “great epic reveal” is that people like you Konig have been arguing against the theory. If no one had been arguing against the theory, the whole plot would just feel very uninterestiny.
It would no longer be a mystery.

It’s weird, I agree with you that they might have tried a little bit too hard making them not appear as ‘obvious’ dragon minions. At the same time, I feel they’ve also tried too hard making them look like minions (there are just soooo many references to the fight between dream and nightmare and who’s right about “the true nature of the Sylvari”. Littered all over the Sylvari PS.).

That might also be the reason there’s so many things not making sense. When you have such a very strong case on one side, instead of reducing that side’s arguments, I guess you start overcompensating the other side with differences and uniquenesses (e.g. they can’t look or act anything like normal minions – because the sum would then just make it very obvious).

So yeah, maybe they’ve just been trying a little bit too hard – on both sides?

Corana.9837:

As for the OP, the Sylvari do not seem to mind the various temperatures as much as mammal-based species. Though they are aware of it and will often state the differences it does not actually cause negative repercussions. Based upon the various Sylvari NPC dialogue and comments in the Shiverpeak areas.

Getting back to that momentarily, I was reading the other day about trees exploding due to freezing conditions (see also: fire and lightning). Turns out this is most likely a myth, at least in regard to explosions caused by cold temperatures, but evidently trees in extreme cold conditions do suffer from ruptures of their bark caused by expansion of the water in their sap, which can produce a loud popping or cracking noises.

Sidebar: will dressing in thick hides and furs keep a sylvari warm in cold weather?

Also, in regard to the vegetable matter of which sylvari are composed, one would assume it would be relatively soft and pliable, allowing human-like freedom of movement — how would this play into their ability to withstand cold?

And another thing! I was playing one of my sylvari last night, and after several underwater encounters, began to wonder why sharks would bother with attacking sylvari at all. Perhaps a quick nip, due to the sylvari’s potentially enticing movements, but after that?

Tachenon.5270:

And another thing! I was playing one of my sylvari last night, and after several underwater encounters, began to wonder why sharks would bother with attacking sylvari at all. Perhaps a quick nip, due to the sylvari’s potentially enticing movements, but after that?

Hahaha! I’ll be sure to add that one to our wiki Lore discrepancies list! :’D

Its possible that Sharks in GW2 aren’t bloodthirsty, as they are in real-life. They may just be territorial like every other red-named mob.

Koviko.3248:

Its possible that Sharks in GW2 aren’t bloodthirsty, as they are in real-life. They may just be territorial like every other red-named mob.

Nah. Don’t think it has anything to do with them not being bloodthirsty.
What do you do after having had a big steak for dinner – you reach for the toothpicks, don’t you?

not sure if its already been said but plants use photosynthesis and respiration… just saying…

On the various Dragon Minions: Some link was made earlier between Sons of Svanir and Sylvari considering their link to a Dragon. Aren’t we mistaking the Sons for the Icebrood in that regard ?

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

That would make the Sylvari far closer to Mordremoth that the Sons are to Jormag in my opinion.

My preference for my “Sylvari are just an enslaved race” theory aside, there is one compelling piece of evidence for the theory that Sylvari are true dragon minions, and that is the fact that we have never, ever seen a Sylvari ghost. It seems that all free-willed creatures have the potential to become ghosts, including animals and even plants (we do see a ghostly Oakheart in Brisban Wildlands as a skill point challenge, although it’s described as being a spirit of nature. Significantly, it is not described as a Druid). Yet in all this time, despite their sentience and despite numerous opportunities and magical accidents, still not a single Sylvari ghost.

I don’t know if this is because, as created minions, Sylvari do not have “souls”, or if because their link to Mordremoth/the Dream prevents them from rising as ghosts, but it is a strong argument for that theory.

memoies are what make us who we are – ghosts are often explained to be residual memory left over – strong emotions usually tied to them

sylvari memories are stored in the dream so their ‘souls’ become part of the dream – that and the fact that their entire race is only 25 years old so there havent been that much time for ghosts to appear

Dressing in thick hides and furs: it would have the same effect as on others. Clothing generally serves to give back the heat of the wearer’s body, while serving as a layer against the outside. Ideally, it would not let through more cold than the heat the body itself generates. Sylvari are described to have colder body temperature, and so they can endure colder environments. Their clothes will get cold earlier though, because of their lower body temperature.

Getefix.9150:

memoies are what make us who we are – ghosts are often explained to be residual memory left over – strong emotions usually tied to them

sylvari memories are stored in the dream so their ‘souls’ become part of the dream – that and the fact that their entire race is only 25 years old so there havent been that much time for ghosts to appear

That’s the real life “theory” behind ghosts though. Ghosts in fantasy settings are usually the actual souls/spirits of the deceased, who are either unable or unwilling to move on to the after life. The exception may be “lesser” Foefire ghosts, who seem to be basically renacting the last few hours of their life over and over, and may possibly be magical “echoes” of a living person rather than a true ghost.

I do grant that it’s possible that Sylvari “ghosts” simply return to the Dream, however.

Harak.8397:

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

Sons do undergo physical corruption though so eventually they are similar to Branded or Risen. Not sure if they keep their free-will throughout the process.

CureForLiving.5360:

Harak.8397:

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

Sons do undergo physical corruption though so eventually they are similar to Branded or Risen. Not sure if they keep their free-will throughout the process.

if you played mass effect i consider it to be like indoctrination.

They initially join for their own reasons, then slowly lose themselves as they become more dragon miniony. Eventually, all that’s left of them is what the dragon wants them to keep (desire for power, etc).

To that end, they must first join willingly because then they will not be aware of the indoctrination process as it occurs, so they won’t fight it. Everything they want to happen is happening, they just don’t realise the dragon is slowly becoming the voice in their head that tells them what they want.

Equilibriator.8741:

CureForLiving.5360:

Harak.8397:

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

Sons do undergo physical corruption though so eventually they are similar to Branded or Risen. Not sure if they keep their free-will throughout the process.

if you played mass effect i consider it to be like indoctrination.

They initially join for their own reasons, then slowly lose themselves as they become more dragon miniony. Eventually, all that’s left of them is what the dragon wants them to keep (desire for power, etc).

To that end, they must first join willingly because then they will not be aware of the indoctrination process as it occurs, so they won’t fight it. Everything they want to happen is happening, they just don’t realise the dragon is slowly becoming the voice in their head that tells them what they want.

Except that the Sons of Svanir basicly start out as worshippers of Dragon. Indoctrinated people in the ME series are usually people who start out wanting to stop the reapers, but are either manipulated to think that they can only stop them in a way that eventually (and unwittingly) aids them, or that they cant be stopped and should be placated instead. Scarlet’s madness was closer to the ME indoctrination than either the syvlari at the ending cutscene of S2, or any sons of svanir.
Sons of Svanir start out as ‘maybe not so bad but there are certainly issues here and there’ people. Like the bunch of teenagers marching around on the streets with “hail satan” t-shirts. Thats just not right, but they arent hurting anyone here and now.

Jormag’s influence in a whole feels a lot like the classic devil’s scheme. It makes the case that it has power. That power is better than some moral restrictions. That you should do whatever you want if it actively expresses your power. That as long as you reach out for more power, it will reward you with more power. And finally it tells you how to get more power: become like itself, through itself. And then you are more an icebrood than a son of svanir. But at that point, its better for you anyway. Sons of svanir are just norn with a chip on their shoulders. Icebrood are the champions of the Dragon!

lakdav.3694:

Equilibriator.8741:

CureForLiving.5360:

Harak.8397:

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

Sons do undergo physical corruption though so eventually they are similar to Branded or Risen. Not sure if they keep their free-will throughout the process.

if you played mass effect i consider it to be like indoctrination.

They initially join for their own reasons, then slowly lose themselves as they become more dragon miniony. Eventually, all that’s left of them is what the dragon wants them to keep (desire for power, etc).

To that end, they must first join willingly because then they will not be aware of the indoctrination process as it occurs, so they won’t fight it. Everything they want to happen is happening, they just don’t realise the dragon is slowly becoming the voice in their head that tells them what they want.

Except that the Sons of Svanir basicly start out as worshippers of Dragon. Indoctrinated people in the ME series are usually people who start out wanting to stop the reapers, but are either manipulated to think that they can only stop them in a way that eventually (and unwittingly) aids them, or that they cant be stopped and should be placated instead. Scarlet’s madness was closer to the ME indoctrination than either the syvlari at the ending cutscene of S2, or any sons of svanir.
Sons of Svanir start out as ‘maybe not so bad but there are certainly issues here and there’ people. Like the bunch of teenagers marching around on the streets with “hail satan” t-shirts. Thats just not right, but they arent hurting anyone here and now.

Jormag’s influence in a whole feels a lot like the classic devil’s scheme. It makes the case that it has power. That power is better than some moral restrictions. That you should do whatever you want if it actively expresses your power. That as long as you reach out for more power, it will reward you with more power. And finally it tells you how to get more power: become like itself, through itself. And then you are more an icebrood than a son of svanir. But at that point, its better for you anyway. Sons of svanir are just norn with a chip on their shoulders. Icebrood are the champions of the Dragon!

what i meant was basically what you said, that they keep getting promised more power and more power, to the point they stop thinking becoming an icebrood is a bad thing in any way, where those thoughts are actually indoctrination by the dragon. Then eventually all solidarity thoughts fade away and worshipping the dragon and doing everything for the dragon seems completely normal, like they came to that conclusion all on their own.

I’m sure there are iceDragonDudes that started as people who figured if they only dabbled a little in dragon magic, they could become stronger without losing themselves, then later changed their minds as they became indoctrinated and finally ended up as a fully fledged minion.

Like, thinking if you have just a little bit of heroin, you can enjoy the benefits without any of the downsides.

More questions:

Do sylvari sleep? If so, do they dream — or, ya know, Dream?

We’ve talked about how cold may (or may not) affect sylvari, but what about heat, especially lots of it? Do sylvari exposed to excessive heat experience anything like the human condition known as heatstroke? Humans sweat to cool themselves in hot conditions — what, if anything, do sylvari do to keep themselves cool when it’s too hot? How long can a sylvari go without water?

Bonus: (I asked this one a loooong time ago): if a sylvari drinks colored water, will it ‘colorize’ their veins?

Tachenon.5270:

Bonus: (I asked this one a loooong time ago): if a sylvari drinks colored water, will it ‘colorize’ their veins?

If I make them drink a liquid which fluoresces under blacklight . . . does that mean it works on them too?

. . . could I serve drinks and thus start an impromptu “vegetables only” rave?!

Oh. Oh my.

Lilyandra.1465:

As far as cold or hot, it’s probably close to that of a humans levels. Normal plants wilt when it’s too hot, or freeze/die when it’s too cold, so I wouldn’t expect Sylvari to act differently. On the wiki it says that a sylvari in the grove complains that Hoelbrak is too cold.

According to Explorer Syllia in Snowden Drifts, Sylvari are not affected by cold.

So, it probably means that Sylvari experience cold in some other way, or affected by it less than, say, humans, yet they feel it and may form an opinion on it, like it or dislike it.

Equilibriator.8741:

lakdav.3694:

Equilibriator.8741:

CureForLiving.5360:

Harak.8397:

In Edge of Destiny, when Hoelbrak comes under attack by Jormag’s minion, those are Icebrood, (some even showing signs of violent death) not Sons of Svanir whom I liken more with sect fanatics than actual “minions” under the control of a greater entity.

Sons do undergo physical corruption though so eventually they are similar to Branded or Risen. Not sure if they keep their free-will throughout the process.

if you played mass effect i consider it to be like indoctrination.

They initially join for their own reasons, then slowly lose themselves as they become more dragon miniony. Eventually, all that’s left of them is what the dragon wants them to keep (desire for power, etc).

To that end, they must first join willingly because then they will not be aware of the indoctrination process as it occurs, so they won’t fight it. Everything they want to happen is happening, they just don’t realise the dragon is slowly becoming the voice in their head that tells them what they want.

Except that the Sons of Svanir basicly start out as worshippers of Dragon. Indoctrinated people in the ME series are usually people who start out wanting to stop the reapers, but are either manipulated to think that they can only stop them in a way that eventually (and unwittingly) aids them, or that they cant be stopped and should be placated instead. Scarlet’s madness was closer to the ME indoctrination than either the syvlari at the ending cutscene of S2, or any sons of svanir.
Sons of Svanir start out as ‘maybe not so bad but there are certainly issues here and there’ people. Like the bunch of teenagers marching around on the streets with “hail satan” t-shirts. Thats just not right, but they arent hurting anyone here and now.

Jormag’s influence in a whole feels a lot like the classic devil’s scheme. It makes the case that it has power. That power is better than some moral restrictions. That you should do whatever you want if it actively expresses your power. That as long as you reach out for more power, it will reward you with more power. And finally it tells you how to get more power: become like itself, through itself. And then you are more an icebrood than a son of svanir. But at that point, its better for you anyway. Sons of svanir are just norn with a chip on their shoulders. Icebrood are the champions of the Dragon!

what i meant was basically what you said, that they keep getting promised more power and more power, to the point they stop thinking becoming an icebrood is a bad thing in any way, where those thoughts are actually indoctrination by the dragon. Then eventually all solidarity thoughts fade away and worshipping the dragon and doing everything for the dragon seems completely normal, like they came to that conclusion all on their own.

I’m sure there are iceDragonDudes that started as people who figured if they only dabbled a little in dragon magic, they could become stronger without losing themselves, then later changed their minds as they became indoctrinated and finally ended up as a fully fledged minion.

Like, thinking if you have just a little bit of heroin, you can enjoy the benefits without any of the downsides.

The one problem with this chain of thought is an event that, I believe, takes place in Lornar’s Pass. A Son of Svanir first causes trouble for his ex-girlfriend (or something like that), and then runs off to join the Svanirs full time. If you follow him from the one quest to the next, you’ll see the Svanir shaman perform the ritual on him. Just before the start of the ritual, the Son of Svanir expresses some doubt to embracing Dragon’s power. Defeating the shaman has him return to the homestead and express regret over ever joining the cult. So Jormag’s corruption is a little less subtle than all that, and closer to a cult.

As far as sylvari themselves, they definitely do sleep, although I haven’t heard of them dreaming. They might, none have ever talked about it. Again, I’m not the number 1 source on lore, but I’m pretty sure of this. As for the “blood”, I don’t know but I bet they react as many plants do.

Koviko.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari apparently don’t have hearts, so no, CPR wouldn’t work on them. It can work on a mordrem though!

That’s a good find. Yet another item to add to the list of why Sylvari and Mordrem are nothing alike.

Artichokes have hearts, too…
http://www.rolandfood.com/products/Artichoke-Hearts,-Marinated-(%2340820).html

Just because the word “heart” is used does not mean it is a cardiac circulatory pump a la chordate animals.

It’s been a long time, and I can’t promise I’ll try to find it again, but I do remember a sylvari somewhere on the second level of the Grove mentioning the nightly sort of dreaming with an uppercase D.