Sylvari and the forest dragon

Sylvari and the forest dragon

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Posted by: jfeez.8209

jfeez.8209

Ive only just started catching up on the gw2 lore (massive gw fan just never looked deeper into the gw2 plot) and i noticed something. Im probably wrong but when you create a sylvari you fight a dragon in the dream(which is it trying to corrupt the dream to make a nightmare) however that dragon is nature based. I assumed that it was nature based because it was the sylvari and that’s what it manifested as, but what if that dragon is actually a manifestation of the forest dragon? it makes sense to me. And what if the nightmare court are actually servants to the forest dragon? In the dream the dragon used the hounds, the same as the nightmare court do, and they both want similar things so its entirely possible Cadeyrn aligned himself with the forest dragon to free the slyvari from Ventari’s tablet. Remember Colin mentioned the forest dragon is in maguuma and when asked about who the next dragon we fight could be said the forest dragon(as well are others :p)…

Anyway just a wild theory that sounds less plausible now i have wrote it down

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Actually, you’re pretty spot-on with a lot of the speculation on this forum. I personally would agree with you on all of that, save perhaps the Cadeyrn bit- I don’t believe the Nightmare Court are necessarily aware of their own corruption. If you’re interested, you can browse through the lore forum’s topics- just about any recent one involving Mordremoth (the supposed name of the Jungle Dragon) has touched on its possible relation to the Nightmare Court.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

Agreed with most part, save for the Cadeyrn bit, too. Cadeyrn was a spoiled brat, forever offended by the fact that he was only Secondborn. However, he was right about the flaws in Ventari’s Tablet (killing the krait young when knowing in what spirit they will be raised is one of the two logical choices, as it would save many, many innocents in the long run – the other being the raid of all krait hatcheries to abduct the children and breed an anti-Oratuss, non-xenophobic faction by raising them in Ventari’s spirit… it’d be worth a try). The weed is definitely not brother to the weed. The weed stifles the blossom and prevents its spread. (And then there’s the “Do not let a wrong ripen into evil” tenet, which immediately contradicts the letting of the detrimental weed’s growth… but that’s an entirely different topic. Sorry for the philosophic rant.)

Cadeyrn broke away because he was denied the rights the Firstborn had received, and because his growing disdain for Ventari’s teachings. However, it was Faolain who introduced the Nightmare that she’d supposedly discovered in Orr.

(Btw, TA story path did no justice to Cadeyrn. The Cadeyrn we got to know from the short story wouldn’t have let a filthy Firstborn to take away his crown, especially not become her witless pawn. Relegating the poor guy to a stupid mid-boss role was really saddening (they even kitten’d up his profession: made him a mesmer whereas he’d been a warrior in Dream and Nightmare).

Scarlet’s Alliance Wars (a.k.a. “Guild Wars 2”)
A fantasy of sci-fi cyborg implants grafted into the desiccated flesh of Guild Wars’ corpse.

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Posted by: Seven Star Stalker.1740

Seven Star Stalker.1740

I kinda felt the same way. I’ve seen most people say, “Oh, that’s a manifestation of the dragons” but the key thing is that if you look in the dream, you;

A) Have ethereal risen fighting ethereal non-risen. If there was to be manifestations of dragon minions, they could just as well have used those or any other variant.

B) Have Nightmare hounds. I honestly cannot see what association nightmare hounds have with the Branded, Zhaitan or Destroyers.

C) Have a forest theme dragon, which Caithe explicitly addresses with, “Destroy the NIGHTMARE before it takes root.” If the nightmare manifests strongest in the form of a Dragonesque variant.. That should account for something that’s being implied, and doesn’t seem to subtley either.

Combine that with all the other evidence that’s floating around, I’m pretty sure we have some kind of general idea of where this is suppose to lead to. But that said, we’ve yet to actually see much of anything else on that matter so I’m actually quiet curious to se how this goes.

What I think is the case is the nightmare dragon is kind of doing what the SoS are with Jormag. It’s probably twisting their ideals to suit its standards (assuming its a he). The other idea I thought of however was this possibility;

Perhaps it’s simply dividing the Sylvari by that corruption, because keep in mind, unless it’s special and what not, it’s ultimately not going to be able to do much to them beyond that, and the nightmare court themselves don’t seem any more intrested in the dragons than the normal Sylvari. Divide and conquer via the nightmare minions it can control.

I ? Karkas.

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Posted by: Darkbattlemage.9612

Darkbattlemage.9612

I kinda felt the same way. I’ve seen most people say, “Oh, that’s a manifestation of the dragons” but the key thing is that if you look in the dream, you;

A) Have ethereal risen fighting ethereal non-risen. If there was to be manifestations of dragon minions, they could just as well have used those or any other variant.

B) Have Nightmare hounds. I honestly cannot see what association nightmare hounds have with the Branded, Zhaitan or Destroyers.

C) Have a forest theme dragon, which Caithe explicitly addresses with, “Destroy the NIGHTMARE before it takes root.” If the nightmare manifests strongest in the form of a Dragonesque variant.. That should account for something that’s being implied, and doesn’t seem to subtley either.

Combine that with all the other evidence that’s floating around, I’m pretty sure we have some kind of general idea of where this is suppose to lead to. But that said, we’ve yet to actually see much of anything else on that matter so I’m actually quiet curious to se how this goes.

What I think is the case is the nightmare dragon is kind of doing what the SoS are with Jormag. It’s probably twisting their ideals to suit its standards (assuming its a he). The other idea I thought of however was this possibility;

Perhaps it’s simply dividing the Sylvari by that corruption, because keep in mind, unless it’s special and what not, it’s ultimately not going to be able to do much to them beyond that, and the nightmare court themselves don’t seem any more intrested in the dragons than the normal Sylvari. Divide and conquer via the nightmare minions it can control.

Or it could be simply since it is a dream world, thus a world not govern by normal law of nature, the Dragon is a manifestation of a generic fear in all Sylvari. The Elder Dragons are these creatures that can literally destroy the world if they wanted to, this would definitely frighten any of the races. Or it could be the Nightmare Court engineered the nightmare to take the form of a dragon, believing that such a strong form will have a better chance of taking root and converting the non-nightmare sylvari to the nightmare court’s desires.

I’m the Asura Elementalist that stole all your cookies, well except the oatmeal ones.
Chaos always finds a way, who you think Evil learned it from?

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Posted by: Seven Star Stalker.1740

Seven Star Stalker.1740

I kinda felt the same way. I’ve seen most people say, “Oh, that’s a manifestation of the dragons” but the key thing is that if you look in the dream, you;

A) Have ethereal risen fighting ethereal non-risen. If there was to be manifestations of dragon minions, they could just as well have used those or any other variant.

B) Have Nightmare hounds. I honestly cannot see what association nightmare hounds have with the Branded, Zhaitan or Destroyers.

C) Have a forest theme dragon, which Caithe explicitly addresses with, “Destroy the NIGHTMARE before it takes root.” If the nightmare manifests strongest in the form of a Dragonesque variant.. That should account for something that’s being implied, and doesn’t seem to subtley either.

Combine that with all the other evidence that’s floating around, I’m pretty sure we have some kind of general idea of where this is suppose to lead to. But that said, we’ve yet to actually see much of anything else on that matter so I’m actually quiet curious to se how this goes.

What I think is the case is the nightmare dragon is kind of doing what the SoS are with Jormag. It’s probably twisting their ideals to suit its standards (assuming its a he). The other idea I thought of however was this possibility;

Perhaps it’s simply dividing the Sylvari by that corruption, because keep in mind, unless it’s special and what not, it’s ultimately not going to be able to do much to them beyond that, and the nightmare court themselves don’t seem any more intrested in the dragons than the normal Sylvari. Divide and conquer via the nightmare minions it can control.

Or it could be simply since it is a dream world, thus a world not govern by normal law of nature, the Dragon is a manifestation of a generic fear in all Sylvari. The Elder Dragons are these creatures that can literally destroy the world if they wanted to, this would definitely frighten any of the races. Or it could be the Nightmare Court engineered the nightmare to take the form of a dragon, believing that such a strong form will have a better chance of taking root and converting the non-nightmare sylvari to the nightmare court’s desires.

The first point is kinda.. Eh.. It’s a really lame card to pull out, and given the dream is a collection of Sylvari memories and knowledge, it makes little sense that a memories would defy the laws of nature from which they are recorded. But I suppose you’re right to some degree in that sense because the dream does reveal the past, the potential future and the present.

Also, I think you’ve forgotten that the Nightmare isn’t something the Nightmare court Engineered, nor can they really manipulate it, just as (for the major part) the Pale Tree Sylvari can’t really do so either, which is why the Nightmare court do actually want to take claim over the Pale Tree.

Of course, keep in mind we know little about the nature of Mordremoth so we don’t actually have entirely full confirmation that it’s the one dealing with the Nightmare. As I did mention.

I ? Karkas.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I was afraid this thread would be another “sylvari on a whole are dragon minions and the pale tree is a dragon champion!!1!1!!11!!eleven!” thread.

My own theory and research – written in an in-universe perspective for flavor – can be found here — with much older research and theorizing in this thread which is fairly incomplete compared to now. In the former, I didn’t include the DoD experience since it was in-universe and at the time couldn’t think of how to include that sensibly (I blame Thalador for convincing me to write it from an in-universe perspective. :P)

I would similarly agree with most in the OP but disagree with the Cadeyrn bit and most importantly the notion of “freeing the sylvari from the Ventari tablet” – Malyck shows that the Nightmare Court is most definitely not the natural form of sylvari, so Cadeyrn’s direction is just wrong. As Thalador said, Cadeyrn was a spoiled brat when he made the Nightmare Court – a rebellious youth who just says “whatever my parents say, I’ll do the opposite!” and all because he didn’t get the attention he wanted.

Do note that sylvari are immune to corruption, however. So either Mordremoth has found a way around it, or they are merely being influenced and not touched by corruptive magic (since such Elder Dragon corruptive magic ends up killing the sylvari before they could be corrupted).

Overall, the Shadow of the Dragon is just a minor piece of influence – the Nightmare Hounds, the whole lore around the hounds that is, is far stronger piece of evidence.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Darkbattlemage.9612

Darkbattlemage.9612

The first point is kinda.. Eh.. It’s a really lame card to pull out, and given the dream is a collection of Sylvari memories and knowledge, it makes little sense that a memories would defy the laws of nature from which they are recorded. But I suppose you’re right to some degree in that sense because the dream does reveal the past, the potential future and the present.

Also, I think you’ve forgotten that the Nightmare isn’t something the Nightmare court Engineered, nor can they really manipulate it, just as (for the major part) the Pale Tree Sylvari can’t really do so either, which is why the Nightmare court do actually want to take claim over the Pale Tree.

Of course, keep in mind we know little about the nature of Mordremoth so we don’t actually have entirely full confirmation that it’s the one dealing with the Nightmare. As I did mention.

I only briefly played a Sylvari in beta, real life events caused me to unable to continue playing that character. I was under the impression the Nightmare Court had created the nightmare, but I do misunderstand things upon initial encounter. Another thing I took from that brief time was that while the Pale Tree doesn’t actively govern the dream she can manipulate some things, such as sending Caithe into the dream to guide the still to be born Sylvari into correcting the problem. So perhaps this is a result of her fear manifesting in the dream?

I’m the Asura Elementalist that stole all your cookies, well except the oatmeal ones.
Chaos always finds a way, who you think Evil learned it from?

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Posted by: Seven Star Stalker.1740

Seven Star Stalker.1740

The first point is kinda.. Eh.. It’s a really lame card to pull out, and given the dream is a collection of Sylvari memories and knowledge, it makes little sense that a memories would defy the laws of nature from which they are recorded. But I suppose you’re right to some degree in that sense because the dream does reveal the past, the potential future and the present.

Also, I think you’ve forgotten that the Nightmare isn’t something the Nightmare court Engineered, nor can they really manipulate it, just as (for the major part) the Pale Tree Sylvari can’t really do so either, which is why the Nightmare court do actually want to take claim over the Pale Tree.

Of course, keep in mind we know little about the nature of Mordremoth so we don’t actually have entirely full confirmation that it’s the one dealing with the Nightmare. As I did mention.

I only briefly played a Sylvari in beta, real life events caused me to unable to continue playing that character. I was under the impression the Nightmare Court had created the nightmare, but I do misunderstand things upon initial encounter. Another thing I took from that brief time was that while the Pale Tree doesn’t actively govern the dream she can manipulate some things, such as sending Caithe into the dream to guide the still to be born Sylvari into correcting the problem. So perhaps this is a result of her fear manifesting in the dream?

If you’re referring to her as in Caithe, I don’t think so because it doesn’t seem to have any real connection to her. Sure, it’s a dragon, but at that point presumably Noone has seen a sort of forest dragon as of yet, so I don’t think so.

There is however a possible counter argument, and that is that I recall reading somewhere that when Caithe first saw the nightmare (which she obviously rejected, and Faolain accepted on the other hand), apparently they were both thinking of the elder dragons of the time. But I honestly can’t remember the source for this.

I ? Karkas.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I was under the impression the Nightmare Court had created the nightmare, but I do misunderstand things upon initial encounter.

Faolain and Caithe were the first sylvari to ever witness the nightmare – what exactly it is, is left unknown – I recall seeing that it was when the two were in Orr that they encountered it first. Caithe turned away from it, Faolain embraced it but did not fully fall to it.

Later on Cadeyrn being the spoiled pompous bookah he is, made the Nightmare Court and brought Faolain fully into the Nightmare, where she then took reign over the Nightmare Court. Somewhere along the line, it seems that Faolain likely messed with Cadeyrn’s mind – because when he’s fought in Twilight Arbor, not only is he no longer a warrior but now a mesmer, but he appears as a fanatical followers of Faolain (it was said that he resented Faolain taking his power and position which matches his spoiled personality perfectly). That or Anet screwed up Cadeyrn’s writing when doing the dungeon. But given Faolain’s personality and what Caithe says about her in the dungeon – that Faolain twists people to do her bidding and then uses them to mess with others – it seems equally likely to be what I proposed (and the better writing outcome).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: jfeez.8209

jfeez.8209

Oh man some good info in here, like i said ive only just started getting into the lore properly so i knew i would miss a few things :p I think theres alot more to the nightmare and dragon thing, or even really just with the forest dragon (i hope that this is the next dragon), ive spent the last few days hunting through the world for clues :p Ill def be reading through your theories/research Konig =)

Edit:
Just read through, i missed the oakheart stuff, i would like to think the forest dragons minions where that nightmare court/oakhearts and other nature things, corrupted by his power but thats a massive assumption with no real facts… yet.

(edited by jfeez.8209)

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Posted by: Mickey Frogeater.1470

Mickey Frogeater.1470

Faolain was corrupted on Orr realm of Zaitan!?!

She and those she corrupted are Risen then….

And we thought Sylvari couldn’t become Risen and now it turns out Faolain turned the Nightmare Court into Risen behind their backs!?! After taking over it!?!

No wonder the Nightmare court is worse then it was when it was founded….

No wonder Cadeyrn went from someone who hated Faolain’s taking over the Nightmare Court to being a loyal slave in Twilight Arbor….. He was turned into a Risen

Is Risen corruption of Sylvari only capable of happening in the Dream?

(edited by Mickey Frogeater.1470)

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

Just because it happened in Orr doesn’t mean it had to have something to do with Zhaitan, much less make Faolain risen. Nightmare court are quite visibly not risen, not in body nor mind.

And about the dragon in the dream, the dream is a collection of the memories and experiences of other sylvari, that’s why there were those risen and such present. However, presumably no sylvari had seen Zhaitan at that point (and I don’t see how Anet could have had fitted him in there), so the fear other sylvari held, especially fear towards the dragon, manifested in a twisted dream, the nightmare hounds in the dream formed in a similar manner, though not from such specific fears.

And regarding the hounds, they too are made by the Pale Tree, it would stand to reason that they too are immune to dragon corruption in the same way. The nightmare court turns them to nightmare by putting them through pain and suffering until they embrace it, just like they do with captured sylvari.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Influencing the Dream of Dreams would seem like the only way to corrupt the incorruptible Sylvari. So maybe that is Mordremoth’s thing: Nature and dreams.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

If the Nightmare Court were Risen, then they’d be hailing Zhaitan like the actual risen mooks.

The Nightmare, akittens basic most open form, is negative emotions and experiences. Fear, for example, is what the Nightmare is. Faolain and Caithe seeing the Nightmare for the first time in Orr may simply be that they saw something so horrific that it frightened them both greatly – and Faolain went towards that feeling of fear to explore it, and exploit it.

I think if there’s a tie with an Elder Dragon with the Nightmare, it began after Faolain’s initial exposure to the Nightmare since it is said she wasn’t fully drawn into the Nightmare yet – it was Cadeyrn who did such. So it may very well be that Cadeyrn went out and made contact with Mordremoth’s influence. Would explain how his personality changes from being a spoiled brat with “we will become who we are without the tablet!” to “we will cover the world in pain.” that happens in the old sylvari blog post here.

However, presumably no sylvari had seen Zhaitan at that point (and I don’t see how Anet could have had fitted him in there), so the fear other sylvari held, especially fear towards the dragon, manifested in a twisted dream, the nightmare hounds in the dream formed in a similar manner, though not from such specific fears.

Caithe had seen him. She was in fact the only being who saw him and lived until the Pact’s actions.

And regarding the hounds, they too are made by the Pale Tree, it would stand to reason that they too are immune to dragon corruption in the same way. The nightmare court turns them to nightmare by putting them through pain and suffering until they embrace it, just like they do with captured sylvari.

However there’s a lot of differences between the sylvan hounds and the sylvari – sylvan hounds don’t seem to learn anything from the Dream of Dreams and may not even be tied to it (which is, IMO, why the sylvari are immune – their tie to the DoD – which means that Malyck is not immune), and they form as pups rather than full grown adults.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

However, presumably no sylvari had seen Zhaitan at that point (and I don’t see how Anet could have had fitted him in there), so the fear other sylvari held, especially fear towards the dragon, manifested in a twisted dream, the nightmare hounds in the dream formed in a similar manner, though not from such specific fears.

Caithe had seen him. She was in fact the only being who saw him and lived until the Pact’s actions.

Ah, that I had missed. Still, the dream of an individual sylvari is a seemingly random collection of memories and experiences, so the chances of that one particular memory popping up are quite minimal.

And regarding the hounds, they too are made by the Pale Tree, it would stand to reason that they too are immune to dragon corruption in the same way. The nightmare court turns them to nightmare by putting them through pain and suffering until they embrace it, just like they do with captured sylvari.

However there’s a lot of differences between the sylvan hounds and the sylvari – sylvan hounds don’t seem to learn anything from the Dream of Dreams and may not even be tied to it (which is, IMO, why the sylvari are immune – their tie to the DoD – which means that Malyck is not immune), and they form as pups rather than full grown adults.

There is no indication that the Dream would be the reason the sylvari are immune to the corruption. But, you raise a good point about them being born as pups. For the sylvari, a childhood wasn’t necessary from the Pale Tree’s viewpoint. Why do the hounds have it? Maybe they indeed don’t learn from the Dream of Dreams, and so have to learn through growing up. Regardless, we’ve never seen sylvan hounds corrupted by the dragons, and the Nightmare Court uses the same methods of converting them than they use for converting captured sylvari.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Yamiga.7863

Yamiga.7863

Influencing the Dream of Dreams would seem like the only way to corrupt the incorruptible Sylvari. So maybe that is Mordremoth’s thing: Nature and dreams.

Or could it be that Modremoth is still asleep, and dreaming?
If I am not mistaken, we dont even know if Modremoth has awaken yet, but even in hibernation he probably can influence the world around him, as Primordius did in Eye of the North with the Great Destroyer.
Nature being Modremoth’s “domain”, it would make sense that he’s likely to interact with plants, hence Sylvaris and the Pale tree. The dragon shape of the nightmare in the first sylvari personnal story could imo be the “physical” aspect of Modremoth’s half-sleeping will (or passive corruption) trying to invade and corrupt the DoD.
I would not consider the Nightmare Court as dragon minions, but merely half-corrupted beings, like some of the Sons of Svanir that are beetween Norns and Icebrood, this half-corrupted state being a consequence of the Sylvari not being fleshy creatures or of the ED having a weak influence, and thus less able to corrupt anything that is not plant related.
Having almost embraced Zhaitan’s corruption, Faolain would just have fallen to a corruption more suited for her kind…

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Posted by: Plunder.8195

Plunder.8195

Something I’ve been thinking about a bit is that maybe the druids have some role in this.
Maybe the sylvari are the minions of Mordemoth, but are “uncorrupted” by the druids.

The druids were active in the region, and apparently the some sylvari structures are resembling druid-structures. Another reason to think that the druids are involved is the elite skill of the sylvari. Why would they be able to summon a druid?

Anyway, just a thought to play around with ^.^

Some thought provoking quote

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

There is no indication that the Dream would be the reason the sylvari are immune to the corruption.

Actually there is. Three points:

  1. Only the things tied to the Dream of Dreams (aka sylvari) have shown to be immune to corruption physically. The question really depends on if the White Stag is also immune, and if Malyck’s brethren are not.
  2. The Dream of Dreams functions very much like the Mists, even the portal to the DoD in A Light in the Darkness is the same kind as the ones going into the Mists.
  3. The Forgotten, which hold ties to the Mists, have magic that’s immune to corruption.

Connect the three dots and you have “things tied to the Mists may be resistant/immune to the twisting effect of draconic energies; and this includes things tied to the Dream of Dreams.”

Maybe the sylvari are the minions of Mordemoth, but are “uncorrupted” by the druids.

Explain Malyck then.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Darkbattlemage.9612

Darkbattlemage.9612

Something I’ve been thinking about a bit is that maybe the druids have some role in this.
Maybe the sylvari are the minions of Mordemoth, but are “uncorrupted” by the druids.

The druids were active in the region, and apparently the some sylvari structures are resembling druid-structures. Another reason to think that the druids are involved is the elite skill of the sylvari. Why would they be able to summon a druid?

Anyway, just a thought to play around with ^.^

This could also point to a connection with Melandru and the other five human gods. Perhaps Melandru had a hand in their creation or gave them immunity to dragon corruption?

I’m the Asura Elementalist that stole all your cookies, well except the oatmeal ones.
Chaos always finds a way, who you think Evil learned it from?

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

There is no indication that the Dream would be the reason the sylvari are immune to the corruption.

Actually there is. Three points:

  1. Only the things tied to the Dream of Dreams (aka sylvari) have shown to be immune to corruption physically. The question really depends on if the White Stag is also immune, and if Malyck’s brethren are not.
  2. The Dream of Dreams functions very much like the Mists, even the portal to the DoD in A Light in the Darkness is the same kind as the ones going into the Mists.
  3. The Forgotten, which hold ties to the Mists, have magic that’s immune to corruption.

Connect the three dots and you have “things tied to the Mists may be resistant/immune to the twisting effect of draconic energies; and this includes things tied to the Dream of Dreams.”

There’s any number of dots that could be connected there. When the only example of a being incorruptible we have is the sylvari, we could take any attribute unique to them and say that’s the relevant difference. You say the Dream of Dreams functions very similarly to the mists, but it could just as well be the actual mists that you step into through that portal, and enter a reflection of the dream materialized in there, or it could be just Anet reusing assets. I find no evidence of any special relation to the mists the sylvari would have. Therefore, the only relation between the forgotten and the sylvari would be that the sylvari can’t be corrupted, and that the forgotten have magic that can’t be corrupted. And two points don’t make a trend.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The Pale Tree explains that the Dream is more than just knowledge of the past, but also of the present and future. That sounds just like the Mists to me, especially since the Dream is an aethereal location that mimics Tyria (if not elsewhere too), just like the Mists does. The appearance of being in the Dream – both in the tutorial and A Light in the Darkness – also matches the experience of entering the Mists during the norn storyline.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

Yet Havroun Grechen was turned Risen, despite having arguably much stronger connection to the mists than a generic billy-bob-briar sylvari. Connection to the mists does not give immunity to corruption.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Would a havroun’s corpse still hold connection to the Mists?

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

Is there a reason to believe a dead sylvari would be a different case in that regard?

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Havroun have a connection to the Mists due to the Spirits of the Wild. Upon death, that connection may sever. But for sylvari it is different – they themselves are tied to the Dream of Dreams so there’s no external force to sever that connection, only themselves (thus soundless).

The only way to prove the theory would really be if a Soundless can become twisted by an Elder Dragon or not.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

The connection between a havroun and the mists may or may not sever on death, but the same applies to sylvari as well. Their connection to the Dream is not inherent, it comes from the Pale Tree, and may or may not be severed on death. And again, there is no proof that the dream holds relation besides similarity to the mists – and take into consideration that each pale tree seems to hold a dream of it’s own (“It means my fears are well founded. You were not born of the Pale Tree, Malyck. We cannot see your Dream; you cannot see ours.” -Trahearne).

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It’s actually said Malyck doesn’t have a dream when you read inbetween the lines. If you go with Caithe’s path, you find out he never forgot anything, there was just nothing to remember in the first place.

As to the DoD being inherent to the Pale Tree sylvari – I think it is. Otherwise, the Pale Tree would cut off the Nightmare Courtiers from the Dream of Dreams in order to slow/prevent/stop the spread of the Nightmare. The fact she doesn’t shows that she may not have that capability. Furthermore, we not once see a sylvari soul, meaning that unlike a norn there’d be no aethereal tie for a sylvari – only physical ties. Meaning that the body would retain that tie, since there’s nothing departing it (a soul) upon death. Though that’s still conjecture, there’s still no evidence to support sylvari have souls – even they themselves don’t know what happens to them upon death, in a non-physical manner.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Amadan.9451

Amadan.9451

i may be completely clueless here, but i thought what you see in the dream before you are born in tyria is a forsee of what your wyld hunt is… in this case fighting the dragon

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Posted by: Plunder.8195

Plunder.8195

Maybe the sylvari are the minions of Mordemoth, but are “uncorrupted” by the druids.

Explain Malyck then.

He was still ‘born’ in the maguuma, the sphere of influence of the druids, so I don’t see why they couldn’t influence him.
What this silly idea of me can’t explain is the dream. Something that might be disconnected from their “uncorruption” completely.

Some thought provoking quote

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@Amadan: That’s what we’re told, yes. But people are arguing that what we’re told was a lie or a red herring.

@Plunder: Thing is, the Pale Tree isn’t in the sphere of influence of the druids – druids didn’t go that far south, as far as we have seen, even though it’s still within the Maguuma. Malyck doesn’t have much of anything the Pale Tree does – though his tree is supposedly closer to the druids than the Pale Tree, he held no Dream, no Ventari tablet, and so forth.

One thing I forgot about your mention earlier: Druids were once humans – Krytans, to be exact. How exactly would the influence of human spirits that became closer to nature prevent corruption from the Elder Dragons?

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Plunder.8195

Plunder.8195

@Plunder: Thing is, the Pale Tree isn’t in the sphere of influence of the druids – druids didn’t go that far south, as far as we have seen, even though it’s still within the Maguuma. Malyck doesn’t have much of anything the Pale Tree does – though his tree is supposedly closer to the druids than the Pale Tree, he held no Dream, no Ventari tablet, and so forth.

One thing I forgot about your mention earlier: Druids were once humans – Krytans, to be exact. How exactly would the influence of human spirits that became closer to nature prevent corruption from the Elder Dragons?

The tree is not inside the sphere of influence? That’s a good argument against my hunch.
I don’t think that the dream and the “uncorruption” are necessary connected, the Malyck lacking the dream is not really relevant here.
I would guess that the druids’ magic and this nature-elder dragon are very similar and can affect each other in some ways.

How would you explain the sylvari elite skill that summons a druid-spirit?

Some thought provoking quote

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

@Plunder: Thing is, the Pale Tree isn’t in the sphere of influence of the druids – druids didn’t go that far south, as far as we have seen, even though it’s still within the Maguuma. Malyck doesn’t have much of anything the Pale Tree does – though his tree is supposedly closer to the druids than the Pale Tree, he held no Dream, no Ventari tablet, and so forth.

One thing I forgot about your mention earlier: Druids were once humans – Krytans, to be exact. How exactly would the influence of human spirits that became closer to nature prevent corruption from the Elder Dragons?

Er… you’re quite wrong there. The place where the Pale Tree began her growth might not have been inside druid sphere of influence, but the cave where she and other seeds were hidden is more than likely to have been in a western part of the Maguuma – which was definitely druid territory.

As to your other questions: access to Forgotten magic, perhaps.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

It’s actually said Malyck doesn’t have a dream when you read inbetween the lines. If you go with Caithe’s path, you find out he never forgot anything, there was just nothing to remember in the first place.

The Soundless separate themselves from the dream, partially by living away from it. Although theirs is a willing separation, Malyck could have disconnected from the dream of his tree before his awakening, as he drifted away from it in his pod.

As to the DoD being inherent to the Pale Tree sylvari – I think it is. Otherwise, the Pale Tree would cut off the Nightmare Courtiers from the Dream of Dreams in order to slow/prevent/stop the spread of the Nightmare. The fact she doesn’t shows that she may not have that capability. Furthermore, we not once see a sylvari soul, meaning that unlike a norn there’d be no aethereal tie for a sylvari – only physical ties. Meaning that the body would retain that tie, since there’s nothing departing it (a soul) upon death. Though that’s still conjecture, there’s still no evidence to support sylvari have souls – even they themselves don’t know what happens to them upon death, in a non-physical manner.

“I do not control the Dream. I am simply its caretaker.” – Avatar of the Tree

The tree acts as a medium between it’s Dream and it’s children, the sylvari. However, that doesn’t mean it can sever the link between itself and the Nightmare Courtiers at will. But, I’m fairly sure dead sylvari don’t contribute to the Dream (the Pale Tree didn’t know about what happened to Riannoc, for example). That would suggest that the link between the sylvari and the dream breaks on death.

Besides, not having a spirit leave the body would suggest that they don’t have a connection to the mists, as other beings travel through the mists after their death, whereas sylvari may not even have a spirit or soul, and their whole essence is in their body. They could even be just extensions of the Tree, like cells in our body. That in itself could be enough to prevent them from being corrupted, not this proposed connection to the mists.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I would guess that the druids’ magic and this nature-elder dragon are very similar and can affect each other in some ways.

How would you explain the sylvari elite skill that summons a druid-spirit?

By that argument, necromancy and Zhaitan’s magic should be capable of affecting each other in some ways.

And impossible to really say, since we have absolutely no context for the skill and no other connection besides both being located in the Maguuma Jungle. Honestly, it could be remnants of a scrapped lore plot; or it could be that they wanted to make a treant-summoning skill but felt a physical treant seemed too OP so they went with a spectral one and that turned into druids who appear as spectral treants.

Er… you’re quite wrong there. The place where the Pale Tree began her growth might not have been inside druid sphere of influence, but the cave where she and other seeds were hidden is more than likely to have been in a western part of the Maguuma – which was definitely druid territory.

As to your other questions: access to Forgotten magic, perhaps.

And where do you get that it was in the western part of the Maguuma (which, btw, would be off the map)? We don’t know where Ronan was when he found the seed. So we cannot properly say if he was within or outside druid territory. However, being guarded by fierce creatures… doesn’t sound very druid-like.

And how would the druids get access to Forgotten magic? The Forgotten haven’t been near there for nearly a millennium before the druids disappeared.

The Soundless separate themselves from the dream, partially by living away from it. Although theirs is a willing separation, Malyck could have disconnected from the dream of his tree before his awakening, as he drifted away from it in his pod.

Location actually has nothing to do with their ties to the Dream. They distance themselves from the city because of the city noise there is. Becoming Soundless takes constant meditation and definitely intentional separation from the Dream – and distancing from those who are part of the dream is merely an aid to that.

But, I’m fairly sure dead sylvari don’t contribute to the Dream (the Pale Tree didn’t know about what happened to Riannoc, for example). That would suggest that the link between the sylvari and the dream breaks on death.

That is an oddity in of itself – even if there’s a link severing upon death, there should still be knowledge of the moment of death in the Dream, let alone the moments before said moment of death.

Besides, not having a spirit leave the body would suggest that they don’t have a connection to the mists, as other beings travel through the mists after their death, whereas sylvari may not even have a spirit or soul, and their whole essence is in their body. They could even be just extensions of the Tree, like cells in our body. That in itself could be enough to prevent them from being corrupted, not this proposed connection to the mists.

Unless it was their bodies rather than spirit that was tied to the Mists. However, spirits in of themselves aren’t tied to the Mists – that’s just where they go when finding rest.

I know there are other possibilities, but that doesn’t counteract the one I proposed in of itself.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

Spoiler alert:

I thought the nightmar court were servents of craggy. From Gw2 2nd novel they tryed to get glint killed also they said that you would be safe from the dragon rising if you joined them. Kragy demostrated some mez abilities when fighting Glint also becoming transparent like a cloud for a montain that is a large feat.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

Spoiler alert:

I thought the nightmar court were servents of craggy. From Gw2 2nd novel they tryed to get glint killed also they said that you would be safe from the dragon rising if you joined them. Kragy demostrated some mez abilities when fighting Glint also becoming transparent like a cloud for a montain that is a large feat.

The only thing Kralk has in common with mesmers is the color purple. If there was anything to take away from the BotFW LS, it is that he/it is probably more inclined to air magic, and its different aspects (wind, sun, and lightning), like Glint was and the Zephyrites now are.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It was stated in an interview during “sylvari week” way back when, that like normal sylvari, the Nightmare Court are still wanting to kill all the Elder Dragons.

BTW, Kralkatorrik turned into a sandstorm, he didn’t become t ransparent or anything. He has more in common with elementalists than mesmers (fun fact: in the latest GuildMag interview, the devs, think it was Jeff, lists in a sidecomment what the Elder Dragons are “attuned” to – fire, vegetation, undeath, elements, water, ice" – so IMO, Kralkatorrik isn’t so much “crystal” as he is “elements” which fits him well, having used fire, lightning, and earth magic-related abilities himself, as well as for his minions).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

I still prefer to believe that the whole “kralky turned into a sandstorm” thing to be more creating an illustration of how difficult fighting him within the storm was over him actually doing it, but I have only my opinion on the matter. Though I do think removing the crown that Glint worked so hard to put on his head would be a simple matter of poofing into the sandstorm again and letting it fall to the ground…

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

To me, the wording does not sound like an illustrative metaphor or whathaveyou.

This time, though, there was nothing to strike. The Elder Dragon’s flesh had melted into a sandstorm. She tore at it with claws and fangs, but Kralkatorrik was as insubstantial as a dream.
The dream turned on her. In midair, the Elder Dragon rolled to its back, talons reaching up. Glint tried to loft away, but those claws solidified and grasped her. […]_

There is allusion and illustration used there – the reference to a dream – but the “melting into a sandstorm” and “solidified” bits don’t seem such at all.

It honestly doesn’t seem like Kralkatorrik even registered the yoke’s presence or at least importance, reading through the battle with him in the novel. Though I’d be willing to slap it up to yet another plothole of Edge of Destiny.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.