Guild Wars 2

When Ronan separated from his patrol he came across a cave guarded by terrible plant creatures. That cavern was filled with strange seed-pods; he managed to take one seed before fleeing. Little did he know that seed would turn out to grow into the Pale Tree, the tree from which the sylvari come into Tyria.

We’ve come to know from Wynne that the sylvari “come from the jungle dragon” that they “belong to it”, but what really is the origin of those seeds? We don’t really have an answer. We are brought to believe that those seeds somehow come from Mordremoth itself, either from the combined use of plant and mind magic or even from its own body. However if this was the case the seeds would’ve been corrupted from the start, a being like Malyck (and its tree) would not exist. The Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted.

There could be another explanation: the seeds (and, as a consequence, the plants from which they come from) exist in nature but aren’t corruptible by Mordremoth yet, because they are somehow immature in that stage. Mordrem (you know, the “terrible plant creatures” Ronan encountered) will then guard them, making sure they remain in the cave where Mordremoth gathered them.

If we let a seed grow by itself the result will be similar to Malyck’s tree: this resulting tree’s mind will be neutral in a sense (or sterile), not as evolved as the Pale Tree’s mind, which in contrast was enriched by Ronan and Ventari. On the other hand, when a tree gets corrupted by Mordremoth we will witness a Blighting Tree. By the way, there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree (referring to the entity’s mind, which also projects itself with an avatar), which is in its own unique.

In conclusion: like the seeds and the trees, sylvari are not Mordremoth’s creation. After all, Wynne also says: “we’re meant to serve it”; the jungle dragon intended to corrupt the trees (and what may come with them).

P.S. All of this can be linked to another thread I made about the Dream of Dreams being a Realm of the Mists.

—EDIT— Update on the whole idea (comment link)

I made a mistake when saying that we don’t see any other avatar associated to a Tree. We see Mordremoth itself, the very origin of the corruption, presenting to us in its avatar form once we’re in the Dream (the Realm). It itself was generated from one of those same seeds, it is one of those Trees and projects itself with a reptilian form, identifiable as a dragon, because those were the creatures populating Tyria a long way back. A similar helix to the one we see rotating in the Heart of Thorns (the PoI) can be spotted in the Grove, the actual body of the Pale Tree.
This still doesn’t imply however that the seeds came from him, since we know corrupted creatures can’t naturally reproduce, Elder Dragons in primis.
This would also provide a firmer explanation to why Mordremoth is able to enter the Dream of Dreams (the Realm) and communicate with the Realm’s creations.

This sounds like speculation and goes against what has been officially put out. And the Blighting Trees are the equivalent of the pale tree but have been infused with Death Magic that was not present before since Zhaitan was still alive and Mordremoth did not have access to it. With the Pale tree being removed from Mordremoth’s influence in his weakened state could explain why they were not immediately subservient to him.

What I find weird in your theory is that Mordremoth could corrupt a full-grown tree but not a seed.
In fact, even if it is somewhat weak, I think Sylvari hold some dragon power (if not corruption) solely based on the fact they are able to influence plant growth in order to make houses, clothing, or to change their body… which is made out of plant material. Those from the Nightmare actually grow plants that share some visual with Mordremoth creations (some NPC like Amoxtli noticed the resemblance). That goes in the direction that Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth…. but also children of the Dream.

When you say there is no blighting counterpart of the Pale Tree, I think this is only due to the fact that the Pale Tree itself is not only a Tree. She exists in two different planes : Tyria and the Dream. Actually I think that Ventari’s tablet, and further on (but not thanks to “power of love” … I know it will be transformed soon), the entire Pale Tree is an anchor point of the Dream in the realm of Tyria.

The Pale Tree says that Sylvari are creatures of the Dream during their sleep. Basically she gives them knowledge from this other realm, and as a side effect a free will, in a body meant to obey the dragon.

I know the next question will be about Mallyck but as said in another thread, he is somewhat an aberration to me because with no connection to the Dream he should not be able to talk, read or fight (which are the basics every Sylvari is sure to take form the Dream under the Pale Tree direction) but if he was a simple minion I do not get why he was not simply mindless. Maybe the explanation is a proximity one (far from a champion, guarding his Tree, and his master sleeping) but it would not explained where he took his knowledge from.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

[…] the Blighting Trees are the equivalent of the pale tree but have been infused with Death Magic.

While the Blighting Trees are similar to the Pale Tree, they are not identical. The Blighting Trees (which, on a side note, are actually corrupted) never display a projection of themselves like the Pale Tree does with its avatar.

It’s stated nowhere that they’re infused with death magic, that’s an assumption; while it’s known Mordremoth absorbed some of Zhaitan’s magic I think one of the rare cases where he utilizes said magic (death and shadow) happens in Bitter Harvest, with Logan and Zojja.

To continue, in Morwood Wilds (Auric Basin) we witness mordrem bringing deceased bodies to three Blighting Tree saplings for them to copy; I doubt the cloning process is a 1:1 ratio (1 corpse is needed to generate 1 mordrem) and the act of bringing corpses to the corrupted saplings (in order for them to copy said corpses) it’s more a way of teaching the still growing Blighting Trees how to replicate various templates. The Pale Tree itself learned how to copy humans and keeps giving birth to sylvari without the need of dead bodies. Ultimately, this is plant magic, not death magic.

Ranael.6423:

What I find weird in your theory is that Mordremoth could corrupt a full-grown tree but not a seed.

When I said the seeds are immature I was referring to the fact that in this embryonal stage they have not yet developed a mind of their own (simple as it could be) and hence the dragon can’t yet subjugate it; and yes, in Tyria some plants (if not all) have minds (the trees coming from these seeds in particular are not common trees), even some fungi do.

Ranael.6423:

[…] I think Sylvari hold some dragon power (if not corruption) solely based on the fact they are able to influence plant growth in order to make houses, clothing, or to change their body… which is made out of plant material.

Sylvari make use of plant magic which coincidentally is the same magic Mordremoth uses. By your reasoning, Rangers (and Druids) are using “the jungle dragon’s power” when summoning plants and vines; they’re not, they’re using plant magic, a natural aspect of magic.

Ranael.6423:

Those from the Nightmare actually grow plants that share some visual with Mordremoth creations (some NPC like Amoxtli noticed the resemblance).

The Nightmare is separate from Mordremoth.

Ranael.6423:

[…] the Pale Tree itself is not only a Tree. She exists in two different planes : Tyria and the Dream.

But it is, The Pale Tree is really just a Tree, that’s her physical form. Thing is her mind is very powerful (yes, these trees have minds) and was able to connect to the Dream, hence she’s present both in the physical world (Tyria) and in the Mists (the Dream).
She’s described as being a custodian of the Dream.

Ranael.6423:

I know the next question will be about Mallyck

A whole thread could be opened on Malyck, but I think the best explanation is that sylvari’s genesis is disturbingly similar to Razah’s genesis (read the very first quote in Razah’s wiki page).
Thing is, if we define sylvari as beings coming strictly from the Pale Tree, than Malyck shouldn’t even be treated as one; given that all these trees come from the same seeds, and that the Mists mimic humans when generating sylvari, then Malyck is a sylvari.

P.S. Again, all of this ties in with a couple of recent posts I made: The Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists and On dragon’s corruption – corruption overall.

Sock.2785:

When I said the seeds are immature I was referring to the fact that in this embryonal stage they have not yet developed a mind of their own (simple as it could be) and hence the dragon can’t yet subjugate it; and yes, in Tyria some plants (if not all) have minds (the trees coming from these seeds in particular are not common trees), even some fungi do.

Some plants have sentience, it’s true since Prophecies. But your starting point is to say the Pale Tree is the same than every other seeds in the cave, and that’s where I disagree. First because as you said Blighting Trees are not seen as having their own mind, and also if they would have, their connection to the Dream would then be somehow a protection against corruption through the gift of free will. I really think the Pale has a unique feature in its link to the Dream.

Sock.2785:

Sylvari make use of plant magic which coincidentally is the same magic Mordremoth uses. By your reasoning, Rangers (and Druids) are using “the jungle dragon’s power” when summoning plants and vines; they’re not, they’re using plant magic, a natural aspect of magic.

Rangers are able to tap in nature magic, not necessary only plant magic. The spectra of magic that were available for creatures of Tyria to learn are not necessarily the same as the dragon ones. Look at how magic was thought as being split in 4 schools coming form the Bloodstone (amusingly 4 races gave their magic in it..) and now dragon magic has somehow 6 different major components. Ranger magic is not Sylvari ability to “play” with plant material. Moreover rangers trained their abilities to channel magic while every Sylvari is able to use their power. It is more innate in their case. Hence why I see that as a gift from Mordremoth.

Sock.2785:

The Nightmare is separate from Mordremoth.

Never said it was not separate. I noted (as Amaxtli did) that Mordremoth vines looked very similar to nigthmarish ones. This points to the direction that the power may originate from the same source sans the corruption component.

Sock.2785:

But it is, The Pale Tree is really just a Tree, that’s her physical form. Thing is her mind is very powerful (yes, these trees have minds) and was able to connect to the Dream, hence she’s present both in the physical world (Tyria) and in the Mists (the Dream).
She’s described as being a custodian of the Dream.

She also says her branches extend in this world out in the Dream, yet living in both realm. I do not see why all those trees should have the same function, especially when we see the Dream as a protection against simple corruption. Actually the only way for Mordremoth to convert Sylvari was to hijack the Dream. If he could have used his trees for that, there would be no need of Trahearne as conduit.
Also coming back to corruption, it’s worth noting that Mordremoth sent the Shadow of Dragon to destroy the Tree, not corrupt it. It seems he wanted to at least weaken her protection against him and be able to perform his Call. If he cold have corrupt her, it would have been a much more powerful weapon in the war to come.

Sock.2785:

A whole thread could be opened on Malyck, but I think the best explanation is that sylvari’s genesis is disturbingly similar to Razah’s genesis (read the very first quote in Razah’s wiki page).
Thing is, if we define sylvari as beings coming strictly from the Pale Tree, than Malyck shouldn’t even be treated as one; given that all these trees come from the same seeds, and that the Mists mimic humans when generating sylvari, then Malyck is a sylvari.

Nobody does question that Malyck is a Sylvari. Taimi also said that the primary army of Mordremoth was meant to be the Sylvari. But so far nothing points to Malyck as being a Dreamer (global term that also accounts for Nightmare court and Soundless in that case). One could say that all trees create Sylvari as a factory but those Sylvari are empty vessels. While Mordremoth was sleeping, nothing put the dragon will in them and when he awoke, he could not reach the Sylvari of the Pale Tree because they were already “full” with the Dream will / Ventari tenets. Because NC or Soundless are all defined in comparison the Ventari’s teaching, either against or neutral.

My opinion is that the sylvari are very much Mordremoth’s creation. But they don’t look like the average mordrem because of what Ronan and Ventari did. If not for them, the current tree would’ve spawned in the heart of the maguuma and spawned mordrem instead of sylvan creatures

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth, and for the Pale Tree being away from Mordremoths influence and it being tended by Ventari could be why it became what it was instead of being a Blighting Tree under Mordremoth’s direct influence, and with the Case of Malyck we know next to nothing besides his tree is supposedly in the Heart of Maguuma, and if he had no Dream of Dreams how did he have any concept or knowledge of language/right and wrong/ customs/fighting and so on, he would have been similar to an infant in all those aspects but he is shown as a fully functional/and knowledgeable person

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

I slightly disagree. The pale tree protected the sylvari from Mordremoth’s Call.
But she can’t protect them from the other elder dragons, but also doesn’t need to, because dragon minions are innately immune to each other. Zhaitan couldn’t ‘revive’ the sylvan because they weren’t his to claim.

Amaimon.7823:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

I slightly disagree. The pale tree protected the sylvari from Mordremoth’s Call.
But she can’t protect them from the other elder dragons, but also doesn’t need to, because dragon minions are innately immune to each other. Zhaitan couldn’t ‘revive’ the sylvan because they weren’t his to claim.

I was going off what was stated in the game/lore it is said that the Pale Tree is what protects them from corruption as stated here

Sylvari cannot be corrupted by most Elder Dragons, but simply die instead. This has been revealed to be the Pale Tree’s doing. Ogden Stonehealer hinted that this was caused by their ties to the Dream of Dreams. The only exception to this immunity is the influence of Mordremoth.

It would make more sense now with the reveal that sylvari were meant to be Mordremoths that that is why they cannot be corruptible

Actually the Dream was also protecting Sylvari against Mordremoth. The Dream gives them free will and Mordremoth did not corrupt them in a traditional way. He had to find a way into the Dream and use it to call all of them…. but many did not answer the Call, showing how much of a protection it was. It worked against their own master, yet less effectively as against other dragons but still worked

Now it will be interesting to see if other dragons will be able to corrupt Sylvari in the future after the plant spectrum is now available to all the dragons. In PS Zhaitan corrupted plant material but no “plant people” (infused with plant magic) but I wonder if new dark ice generated by Jormag or his champion could now corrupt Sylvari.

Ranael.6423:

But your starting point is to say the Pale Tree is the same than every other seeds in the cave, and that’s where I disagree. First because as you said Blighting Trees are not seen as having their own mind

But it is like the other Trees, they all come from the same seeds; the difference is in their minds. As an analogy, imagine taking three human beings (they are equal from the start): leave the first one on its own, isolating it (Malyck’s tree); instruct and nurture the second one (the Pale Tree); brainwash the third one (Blighting Trees). In the end they all have minds, but: the first will likely be a simple one; the second will be “improved”, ascended in a way; the third one will be subjugated to your will.
Again, while the Pale Tree is unique it originates from the same seeds as the other Trees. And I agree, its link to the Dream is also unique, we don’t see it happen with any other Tree (that’s what I meant with “there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree”, not that the Blighting Trees have no minds).

Ranael.6423:

Rangers are able to tap in nature magic, not necessary only plant magic. The spectra of magic that were available for creatures of Tyria to learn are not necessarily the same as the dragon ones. […] Moreover rangers trained their abilities to channel magic while every Sylvari is able to use their power. It is more innate in their case. Hence why I see that as a gift from Mordremoth.

I didn’t mean to say they use only plant magic but nature magic is more associated with altering the environment in a certain area by summoning spirits. Even though we’ve never really heard of plant magic, the summoning of vines seems to be just that; in general, it’s the ability to summon plants and shape them, and it’s a natural aspect of magic, regardless if it’s under the sphere of influence of an Elder Dragon (consider elementalists using fire magic: it’s not Primordus’s power, it’s a natural aspect of magic). Sylvari seem to have a natural advantage in using plant magic (given that they are themselves plants); would you say fire elementals, which naturally make use of fire magic, all come from Primordus?

There might be some basic primary magics (like red, blue and green being a set of primary colours), but ultimately there are many “colours” (and shades) of magic.

Ranael.6423:

Never said it was not separate. I noted (as Amaxtli did) that Mordremoth vines looked very similar to nigthmarish ones. This points to the direction that the power may originate from the same source sans the corruption component.

Of course the “power” originates from the same source: both sylvari (being them soundless, dreamers or “nightmarers”, or even from another tree) and Mordremoth use plant magic.

Even though the Dream and the Nightmare are separate entities from the Pale Tree, it’s as if they nurtured each other, growing and learning together on the way. Both the Dream and the Nightmare are separate entities to Mordremoth, and as such they reject it but all of them are entities fighting to rule over the Dream Realm; the sylvari (whom are created by the Mists and transported to the “flesh world” by the trees) can be influenced by all, main difference being that Mordremoth is determined to impose its will on other beings while the Dream and the Nightmare present them as a choice.

Ranael.6423:

The only way for Mordremoth to convert Sylvari was to hijack the Dream. If he could have used his trees for that, there would be no need of Trahearne as conduit. Also coming back to corruption, it’s worth noting that Mordremoth sent the Shadow of Dragon to destroy the Tree, not corrupt it. It seems he wanted to at least weaken her protection against him and be able to perform his Call. If he cold have corrupt her, it would have been a much more powerful weapon in the war to come.

Mordremoth seems to be linked to the Dream Realm from the start or if anything since Scarlet was exposed to the “Eternal Alchemy”. We don’t really know what the intent behind sending the Shadow of the Dragon was, but the Pale Tree would be very diffucult to corrupt (given she has a very strong mind in addition to being linked to the Dream), trying to weaken her is a good starting point; luckily we were there to stop it in time.

Ranael.6423:

But so far nothing points to Malyck as being a Dreamer (global term that also accounts for Nightmare court and Soundless in that case).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

With the Case of Malyck we know next to nothing besides his tree is supposedly in the Heart of Maguuma, and if he had no Dream of Dreams how did he have any concept or knowledge of language/right and wrong/ customs/fighting and so on, he would have been similar to an infant in all those aspects but he is shown as a fully functional/and knowledgeable person

We know Malyck is unconnected to the Dream, being born from a tree that itself is unconnected to the Dream, hence unable to guide its “children” (to recall the analogy, the tree’s mind is not developed enough), wasn’t helpful in that; nonetheless Malyck still spawned from the Mists (in the Dream Realm) and came to Tyria via a tree. There are some are some explanations on why it has a human form and basic knowledge:

1. The tree from which he was born came in contact with human templates and “learned” to replicate them, much like the Pale Tree is thought to have done.
2. The Mists themselves (in the Dream Realm), having been in contact with different templates for quite a while now, copied the human template (again, like what happened with Razah). Without a strong mind like that of the Pale Tree, the Dream (as in the entity) was unable to identify these other trees and their creations and stabilize a connection.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

Exactly, the Pale Tree, the Dream and the Nightmare help them resist all the Elder Dragons, not just Mordremoth; all those entities (Dream, Nightmare and Pale Tree) aid sylvari’s minds, they help making their minds stronger and more resistant. In theory any Elder Dragon could corrupt the silvary, but Mordremoth has an advantage over them: it is linked to the Dream Realm and its kind of magics are akin to those of the sylvari.

Sock.2785:

Ranael.6423:

The only way for Mordremoth to convert Sylvari was to hijack the Dream. If he could have used his trees for that, there would be no need of Trahearne as conduit. Also coming back to corruption, it’s worth noting that Mordremoth sent the Shadow of Dragon to destroy the Tree, not corrupt it. It seems he wanted to at least weaken her protection against him and be able to perform his Call. If he cold have corrupt her, it would have been a much more powerful weapon in the war to come.

Mordremoth seems to be linked to the Dream Realm from the start or if anything since Scarlet was exposed to the “Eternal Alchemy”. We don’t really know what the intent behind sending the Shadow of the Dragon was, but the Pale Tree would be very diffucult to corrupt (given she has a very strong mind in addition to being linked to the Dream), trying to weaken her is a good starting point; luckily we were there to stop it in time.

Ranael.6423:

But so far nothing points to Malyck as being a Dreamer (global term that also accounts for Nightmare court and Soundless in that case).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

With the Case of Malyck we know next to nothing besides his tree is supposedly in the Heart of Maguuma, and if he had no Dream of Dreams how did he have any concept or knowledge of language/right and wrong/ customs/fighting and so on, he would have been similar to an infant in all those aspects but he is shown as a fully functional/and knowledgeable person

We know Malyck is unconnected to the Dream, being born from a tree that itself is unconnected to the Dream, hence unable to guide its “children” (to recall the analogy, the tree’s mind is not developed enough), wasn’t helpful in that; nonetheless Malyck still spawned from the Mists (in the Dream Realm) and came to Tyria via a tree. There are some are some explanations on why it has a human form and basic knowledge:

1. The tree from which he was born came in contact with human templates and “learned” to replicate them, much like the Pale Tree is thought to have done.
2. The Mists themselves (in the Dream Realm), having been in contact with different templates for quite a while now, copied the human template (again, like what happened with Razah). Without a strong mind like that of the Pale Tree, the Dream (as in the entity) was unable to identify these other trees and their creations and stabilize a connection.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

Exactly, the Pale Tree, the Dream and the Nightmare help them resist all the Elder Dragons, not just Mordremoth; all those entities (Dream, Nightmare and Pale Tree) aid sylvari’s minds, they help making their minds stronger and more resistant. In theory any Elder Dragon could corrupt the silvary, but Mordremoth has an advantage over them: it is linked to the Dream Realm and its kind of magics are akin to those of the sylvari.

Your are under the assumption that the Seeds did not come from Mordremoth when their is nothing to suggest that, but there is slight evidence that they did with them being hairdos by monstrous plant creatures, their location in Maguuma, that Mordremoth has Blighting Trees. The game has stated that sylvari are Mordremoths which could be why they wouldn’t be corruptible to other dragons, yes the Pale Tree defended against Mordremoths influence but that could be solely from the Seed being removed from mordremoths influence before is Sprouted and being tended by Ventari and his Magic.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Your are under the assumption that the Seeds did not come from Mordremoth when their is nothing to suggest that, but there is slight evidence that they did with them being hairdos by monstrous plant creatures, their location in Maguuma, that Mordremoth has Blighting Trees.

One of the main points I made was that we don’t have an answer regarding the seeds’ origin, hence there’s nothing to suggest that they come directly from Mordremoth either. As I said previously, Mordremoth probably gathered the seeds (which are natural occurrences) and guarded them until its next rise in order to use them and corrupt them (but not until planted and grown because, as I said earlier, the seeds are in an embryonal stage and as such haven’t developed a mind yet for the dragon to subjugate).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The game has stated that sylvari are Mordremoths which could be why they wouldn’t be corruptible to other dragons, yes the Pale Tree defended against Mordremoths influence but that could be solely from the Seed being removed from mordremoths influence before is Sprouted and being tended by Ventari and his Magic.

Wynne stated that, and the Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted. If the Pale Tree was the only case of a “purified” Tree, then Malyck and its tree would not exist and I think this is proof of the seeds being natural occurrences, and it follows they’re corruptible by Mordremoth (and theoretically by other Elder Dragons too).

Sock.2785:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Your are under the assumption that the Seeds did not come from Mordremoth when their is nothing to suggest that, but there is slight evidence that they did with them being hairdos by monstrous plant creatures, their location in Maguuma, that Mordremoth has Blighting Trees.

One of the main points I made was that we don’t have an answer regarding the seeds’ origin, hence there’s nothing to suggest that they come directly from Mordremoth either. As I said previously, Mordremoth probably gathered the seeds (which are natural occurrences) and guarded them until its next rise in order to use them and corrupt them (but not until planted and grown because, as I said earlier, the seeds are in an embryonal stage and as such haven’t developed a mind yet for the dragon to subjugate).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The game has stated that sylvari are Mordremoths which could be why they wouldn’t be corruptible to other dragons, yes the Pale Tree defended against Mordremoths influence but that could be solely from the Seed being removed from mordremoths influence before is Sprouted and being tended by Ventari and his Magic.

Wynne stated that, and the Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted. If the Pale Tree was the only case of a “purified” Tree, then Malyck and its tree would not exist and I think this is proof of the seeds being natural occurrences, and it follows they’re corruptible by Mordremoth (and theoretically by other Elder Dragons too).

Who is to say Malycks tree wasn’t corrupted? We know absolutely nothing about him besides he came from the Heart of Maguuma(where Mordremoth rose) he is not connected to the Dream of Dreams(similar to Mordremoth), he has knowledge he shouldn’t, how to behave, how to talk, how to dress, how to fight and so on he shouldn’t have any of that knowledge due to what we know of his tree that it is not part of the Dream of Dreams.

For all we know he could have been created by Mordremoth and one of the Blighting Trees in the image of Sylvari with Knowledge Mordremoth gathered from infiltrating the Dream of Dreams so he could garner more information on his purified minions and from the world outside of the Heart of Maguuma.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Who is to say Malycks tree wasn’t corrupted? We know absolutely nothing about him besides he came from the Heart of Maguuma(where Mordremoth rose) he is not connected to the Dream of Dreams(similar to Mordremoth), he has knowledge he shouldn’t, how to behave, how to talk, how to dress, how to fight and so on he shouldn’t have any of that knowledge due to what we know of his tree that it is not part of the Dream of Dreams.

I’m starting to doubt you actually read what I wrote, especially since I already provided an explaination on how Malyck has the knowledge he has, and you even quoted me on this earlier.

If you try to follow my thought process, the Pale Tree wasn’t purified in any way (if you’re referring to the same “purification” Glint went through) mainly because there was nothing to purify in the first place! The Tree’s mind was nourished by Ronan and Ventari, slowly enriched by time, up to a point where it was powerful enough to stabilize a link with the Dream (the entity). However, all the trees that come from those seeds are connected to the Dream Realm, because that’s where their "children"’s minds spawn (including Malyck and its tree).

Again, Mordremoth is a separate entity from the Dream and the Nightmare, but the dragon seems to have a connection to the Dream Realm itself.

P.S. If you’re doubtful on why I differentiate between the Dream as an entity and the Dream as a Realm, I investigated that in another thread.

Sock.2785:

(but not until planted and grown because, as I said earlier, the seeds are in an embryonal stage and as such haven’t developed a mind yet for the dragon to subjugate).

I think this is the major thing that confuses me about your theory. Your argument seems to be that an Elder Dragon can only corrupt things with minds, but we know that is not the case. Zhaitan corrupted regular non-thinking trees in Orr, and sea urchins, and possibly even coral. Kralkatorrik is best known for corrupting a massive swath of land- dirt, basically. Jormag’s corruption makes plain ice as often as it does minions.

Mordremoth is a bit of an unusual case- depending on your perspective, you can either argue that their didn’t change the environment the way other dragons have or that the entire jungle was of their making- but either way, we at least have the example of “blighting blisters” to show that their corruption can take root in non-sentient forms.

@Aaron Ansari

There are two stages in the corruption, in order:

1. Physical corruption: the altering of the physical form via imbuing the target with specific aspects of magic.
2. Mind corruption: once under a specific “sphere of influence” the subjugation of the mind can take place.

This is supported by the fact that both Twitchy and Glint retained their altered body form once their minds got cleansed on the Altar of Glaust.

On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.

As you pointed out, Kralkatorrik twisted the environment itself (inanimate things), Jormag creates icy formations all around, Zhaitan corrupted vegetation and sea creatures in general. Let’s analyze these one by one:

• Zhaitan corrupts dead beings and ultimately the ones you listed are exactly that: once living trees and sea creatuers now risen from death by Zhaitan (I’d argue that, in Tyria, all of these creatures have a mind, as simple or as primordial as it can be (or, as you say, non-thinking)). We don’t see Zhaitan really making heavy use of those though; even if he subjugated their minds, they’d be of very little use: mussels, sea urchins, corals, “normal” plants, they’re all limited both in their minds and in movements, and would be of very little use in spreading the corruption. On the other hand, the Elder Undead Dragon doesn’t corrupt objects; I can’t think of any case right now except maybe a couple of Dwayna’s statues in the Cathedral of Zephyrs (but I doubt they are obtained via magic). In this regard, the real mistery with Zhaitan would be the orrian spectral weapons, but they appear to be a mystery in general (orrian ones, “chaos” Forgotten ones, bloodstone ones etc.).

• Jormag’s territory is filled with icy formations, but not all are sentiet nor hostile. The ones that do interact with us are comparable to elementals, from the small corrupted ice formations (which themselves summon “typical” icebrood elementals) to the enormous ice elemental being summoned in Wayfare Foothills (the Frozen Maw).
  It’s as if the normal (inanimate) icy formations are a crystallization of Jormag’s ice magic.

• Kralkatorrik twisted everything invested by its foul breath, turning the land black and generating a clear and defined aura surrounding the affected areas. The air itself seems twisted: by walking into the Brand its almost like walking into corruption itself. However, we aren’t attacked" by the soil, by the twisted structures or by the air itself, more generally by inanimate things.

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user); difference is they have access to a much greater quantity and, through the millennia, they have learned how to use their magics quite effectively (by specializing), mastering them.

P.S. I made a whole thread about the “corruption”: here.

Taking your claims one by one, as best I can interpret them- do let me know if I get anything wrong here.

Are you saying that Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s inanimate creations aren’t corruption? That seems a peculiar stance. We know, for instance, that even if Jormag’s ice formations don’t move, they can still corrupt creatures that come into contact with it. Ditto for things that get trapped in Kralkatorrik’s non-moving crystals, and since we don’t see how things get trapped in them in the first place, it is an unpleasant possibility that the ‘inanimate’ bits of the Brand are able to capture things. Or are you arguing it’s only physically corrupted, not mentally? If that’s the case, and you hold physical and mental corruption to be separate, how are they able to mentally corrupt creatures?

On Zhaitan corrupting inanimate objects- An argument could be made for how much of the damage to Orr is corruption, and how much is a century and a half underwater and (for the statues) perhaps mundane modification by the risen, but either way we are told that the land itself was corrupted. That was the entire point of Trahearne’s arc at the end of the PS, after all.

On spectral weapons- the dialogue wasn’t on the wiki last I checked, but an asura in the Cathedral of Silence says they aren’t corrupted at all. He claims they’re just magically animated constructs, like golems, and he builds a device that’s successfully able to neutralize them on that principle.

As for Elder Dragons using our magic- I’m not entirely sure why you brought that up here, but for now I’ll just say that I’m convinced by your argument that an elementalist controlling elementals works on the same principles as dragon corruption, but don’t have any evidence that would refute it and so am willing to leave it as an unlikely possibility. It’s not an argument I want to get into here, but I’ll discuss it more if it’s relevant to your points in some way that I’m missing.

On trees and coral having minds- this frankly baffles me. Do you have a reason to come to that conclusion? Or are you just saying it because your theory requires it to work?

Now, the central claims, that mental and physical corruption is separate, and that physical corruption precedes mental corruption. Considering that every creature that’s corrupted physically, and can be corrupted mentally, is corrupted mentally, I see no reason to separate them out like that. I’d say dragon corruption is all one ‘disease’, with the ‘physical’ corruption being how it affects physical things and the ‘mental’ corruption being how it affects mental processes. Glint is pretty easily explained by the Forgotten ritual curing the disease, but not being meant to repair the damage it had already done. It’s hard to draw a parallel to a real example, since we don’t have many diseases that overtly affect the mind and appearance, but the closest I can come is that curing a person of leprosy wouldn’t automatically regrow the damaged or missing extremities. Glint still looked crystalline because it was damage caused by the corruption, not the corruption itself.

Furthermore, in the rare cases where dragon corruption isn’t shown to use as a instantaneous process, we see physical and mental corruption advancing more or less at the same time. Kellach was being driven mad and marshaling risen long before he died and became a zombie, and the Sons of Svanir slowly ice over and slowly loose aspects of their personalities, instead of the first happening entirely before the second (although a counterargument might instead be that the Sons simply loose the ability to talk in the late stages). And then of course, there’s the sylvari, who undergo mental changes before physical ones.

Sock.2785:

However if this was the case the seeds would’ve been corrupted from the start, a being like Malyck (and its tree) would not exist. The Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted.

They can exist if they seeds were purified while still seeds and placed in that cave. Ronan was never said to flee from the cave, but found monsters within it. Those monsters could have been purified mordrem too.

Sock.2785:

There could be another explanation: the seeds (and, as a consequence, the plants from which they come from) exist in nature but aren’t corruptible by Mordremoth yet, because they are somehow immature in that stage. Mordrem (you know, the “terrible plant creatures” Ronan encountered) will then guard them, making sure they remain in the cave where Mordremoth gathered them.

There are two problems with your argument:

1. Why would they not corrupt the seeds in the first place? There is no strategic benefit to not corrupting immediately. Further, all dragon minions corrupt while they are awake, even if they’re trapped (such as Drakkar).

2. If they were part of the natural world and not the Elder Dragon’s cycle (ergo, hibernating minions), why are they restricted to this cave and not existent elsewhere?

Sock.2785:

By the way, there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree (referring to the entity’s mind, which also projects itself with an avatar), which is in its own unique.

Again, your argument has two major issues:

1. The Pale Tree created the Avatar in recent years. Aside from the fact that it’s 250 years older than the Blighting Trees, and has been absorbing magic for herself in that time (rather than for Mordremoth), she created the Avatar of the Tree for the explicit purpose of communication with non-sylvari.

Sylvari could communicate with the Pale Tree by talking to the tree itself directly, and it could communicate back both telepathically with sylvari, and through words made by the wind through branches.

Blighting Trees, on the other hand, have no reason to communicate with non-mordrem – the Mordrem Commanders can do that for them (and every time we see a Blighting Tree, there is a dragon champion overseeing it – whether it’s one of the three commanders or that one annoying, taunting, Champion Blademaster in Auric Basin that we cannot fight).

2. We never see other purified trees, whether Malyck’s tree or another, so we cannot say that they do not create an Avatar to talk with others. It would not be surprising at all if Malyck’s tree were to make an “Avatar of that Tree” to communicate with the PC when/if we ever go see it.

Ultimately, these are two huge assumptions you’re making based on the claim of absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Sock.2785:

In conclusion: like the seeds and the trees, sylvari are not Mordremoth’s creation. After all, Wynne also says: “we’re meant to serve it”; the jungle dragon intended to corrupt the trees (and what may come with them).

This sounds more like they were corrupted but were purified thus removed from their original role of being made to serve Mordremoth.

Sock.2785:

@Aaron Ansari

There are two stages in the corruption, in order:

1. Physical corruption: the altering of the physical form via imbuing the target with specific aspects of magic.
2. Mind corruption: once under a specific “sphere of influence” the subjugation of the mind can take place.

This is supported by the fact that both Twitchy and Glint retained their altered body form once their minds got cleansed on the Altar of Glaust.

While the physical change cannot be undone, they happen simultaneously in all dragon minion cases. It is not an order of events. And, ultimately, the mind is not corrupted – the free will is simply removed. Not subjugated either, removed.

Sock.2785:

On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.

Mordremoth doesn’t corrupt sylvari in the traditional sense. This is a major error on your part. If it did, then we’d not see Mordrem Guard resisting him – dragon corruption is irresistible no matter what, both when it happens, and afterwards.

Yet we see sylvari resist the act of corruption, as well as the mental hold once Mordremoth’s voice goes quiet.

Sock.2785:

Zhaitan corrupts dead beings and ultimately the ones you listed are exactly that: once living trees and sea creatuers now risen from death by Zhaitan (I’d argue that, in Tyria, all of these creatures have a mind, as simple or as primordial as it can be (or, as you say, non-thinking)). We don’t see Zhaitan really making heavy use of those though; even if he subjugated their minds, they’d be of very little use: mussels, sea urchins, corals, “normal” plants, they’re all limited both in their minds and in movements, and would be of very little use in spreading the corruption. On the other hand, the Elder Undead Dragon doesn’t corrupt objects; I can’t think of any case right now except maybe a couple of Dwayna’s statues in the Cathedral of Zephyrs (but I doubt they are obtained via magic). In this regard, the real mistery with Zhaitan would be the orrian spectral weapons, but they appear to be a mystery in general (orrian ones, “chaos” Forgotten ones, bloodstone ones etc.).

Zhaitan is well known to corrupt living beings, actually.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corporal_Kellach – despite Aaron’s claim, Kellach never dies. He does turn rotten and decayed (Vigil instance only) but never dies when that happens.
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fight_the_Mysterious_Quaggan_Affliction – Living quaggans affected weakly by Zhaitan’s corruption results in their bodies decaying
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Crusader_Aisling_of_the_Vigil_recover_lost_skritt_territory – living plants become corrupted and must be chopped down to cease its spread
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Jezza_and_the_Vigil_in_clearing_Risen_from_Fort_Cadence – corrupted bushes here, still living, must be burned to cease corruption’s spread
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Ayomichi_slow_the_spread_of_Risen_corruption – risen corruption spreading from dead fish to the animals which eat it, resulting in corrupted drakes and other wildlife, which then spreads it to tree stumps and other animals
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Brannen_maintain_Caer_Brier – like in the skritt area, living trees are corrupted here and must be destroyed to slow the spread of corruption

Those are the most primary examples.

There is not a single case I can think of with dead plants being corrupted. Those are very much living – leaves are there, still, but the appearance of the trunks are the same as Kellach’s skin before becoming decayed and rotten: purple veins coarsing thickly beneath the skin/bark.

Zhaitan’s corruption entirely affects the living, but it starts weak enough that it appears like a disease and is akin to the Sons of Svanir slowly being corrupted by Jormag – the influence starts low and slow, but becomes more and more powerful and irresistible.

As for corrupting objects:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Jezza_and_the_Vigil_in_clearing_Risen_from_Fort_Cadence – has corrupted Orrian artifacts that must be destroyed as they’re spreading corruption (to the local plantlife)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ossuary_of_Unquiet_Dead – the end of this story step has us destroying Orrian artifacts steeped in Zhaitan’s concentrated dragon corruption.

Two examples off the top of my head, excluding god statues (not just Dwayna’s – all five temples get corrupted, and the statues in Arah are even more so) and the Spectral Weapons. I’m sure there’s many more cases.

-character limit-

Sock.2785:

Jormag’s territory is filled with icy formations, but not all are sentiet nor hostile. The ones that do interact with us are comparable to elementals, from the small corrupted ice formations (which themselves summon “typical” icebrood elementals) to the enormous ice elemental being summoned in Wayfare Foothills (the Frozen Maw).
It’s as if the normal (inanimate) icy formations are a crystallization of Jormag’s ice magic.

Three problems:

1) Ice Formations can fight back. There are many that do, both large and small.
2) Icebrood Elementals are not summoned. They are corrupted ice elementals as can be seen in this heart when Svanir are attacking local Ice Elementals with shards of corrupted ice – ice changes into different kind of ice.
3) Dragonspawn was basically a sentient and hostile corrupted ice formation, and the Claws of Jormag may be too.

Sock.2785:

Kralkatorrik twisted everything invested by its foul breath, turning the land black and generating a clear and defined aura surrounding the affected areas. The air itself seems twisted: by walking into the Brand its almost like walking into corruption itself. However, we aren’t attacked" by the soil, by the twisted structures or by the air itself, more generally by inanimate things.

This is false on three accounts:

1) The Crystalline Giant in Ghosts of Ascalon is the land itself attacking. So is the Shatterers, technically, both the land and air being corrupted into an assaulting force.

Also: I believe the five formations during this guild challenge causes PBAoE damage via lightning. I may be wrong here.

2) The air does attack. I don’t think players can get damaged, but in some areas of the Dragonbrand (such as Varim’s Run in Fields of Ruin) lighting strikes the ground.

3) You treat this as if unique to Kralkatorrik, but Orr is the same. The soil is decayed, and if you look up you’ll see an oily coat to the sky, and in Straits (if not elsewhere) the water is green and putrid.

Sock.2785:

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user)

There is no strong case for this, honestly, given that everyone and their grandmothers call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”.

Furthermore, the Astralaria collection treats it differently than the ley energy which is what “every magic uses” uses.

It seems that draconic energy is derived from ley energy, but that they are not the same thing.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ditto for things that get trapped in Kralkatorrik’s non-moving crystals, and since we don’t see how things get trapped in them in the first place

We actually do:

“Branded crystal shards. They rain down from the sky. Sometimes it catches one of our own, or one of those branded freaks. If you see one, destroy it immediately!”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sentinel_Jaggedclaw

On occasion in that area you can even see the crystals falling. You can even get hit by one (but I don’t think it entraps you). And some sentinels you break free, IIRC, become Branded Charr.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On spectral weapons- the dialogue wasn’t on the wiki last I checked, but an asura in the Cathedral of Silence says they aren’t corrupted at all. He claims they’re just magically animated constructs, like golems, and he builds a device that’s successfully able to neutralize them on that principle.

I believe there is dialogue that says that those are corrupted, but that they’re corrupted Orrian constructs. One of the hero challenges dealing with fighting the things, I believe.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Are you saying that Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s inanimate creations aren’t corruption?

In twisting the environment, Jormag’s icy formations and Kralkatorrik’s crystals are in the end just a representation of the magic itself (magic can condense, think of it as the various states of matter); there’s nothing there for the dragons to impose their will on (unless the high concentration of magic(s) itself spawns minds, like with the elementals). So, those crystals are another way for the dragons to spread their magic all around (hence corruption), by condensing (solidifying) their magic around the place and to define a border of some kind (given a fixated volume, there will be more particles of magic if arranged in a solid state that if in a gas state); unlike Zhaitan, other Elder Dragons don’t have access to an artesian well to make their magic flow around easily, but even the Undead Dragon make use of crystallized magic (Orrian Towers).

Speaking of Zhaitan, it really is unclear, as you say, how much of the damage really belongs to the Elder Undead Dragon, but when they say that “the land is corrupted” it’s because the artesian well that reaches to all parts of Orr was poisoned with Zhaitan’s magic(s). “Land” here has to be intended as “territory”, the parts of the orrian region connected to the artesian well. It’s as if Zhaitan’s magic flows through the veins of Orr, reaching and expanding to every corner of the system (still in its “gas” form).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On trees and coral having minds- this frankly baffles me. Do you have a reason to come to that conclusion? Or are you just saying it because your theory requires it to work?

Ultimately what I meant to stress was the fact that they aren’t inanimate things, but living things (hence corruptible by Zhaitan). In rereading what I wrote I see what you mean, I used the term loosely; let me correct myself: mind as in brain: Zhaitan can’t twist the will of these less evolved beings like it does with humans because there’s really no such will in these beings to begin with, but it can still subjugate their basic brain’s functions and control them (like we see it doing with other animals: bulls, chickens, drakes etc.).

Going back to the seeds, given that they’re in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.

-continues-

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Now, the central claims, that mental and physical corruption is separate, and that physical corruption precedes mental corruption. Considering that every creature that’s corrupted physically, and can be corrupted mentally, is corrupted mentally, I see no reason to separate them out like that.

It’s not really clear if the “mind corruption” stage is an active process made by the dragon but it seems it must follow the “physical corruption”; ultimately they aren’t really separate stages, since one is dependent to the other (in the end, not every ice elemental naturally belongs to Jormag). In addition, to recall the quote about the elementalists corrupting elementals when summoning them, the various aspects of magic come from the Dragons’ minds (I’m not saying they created said magics, but that mind and magic are strictly connected); if a mind is strong enough it will most definitely prevail on weaker ones, hence when they corrupt someone (imbue them with their kind of magic) in the body they will definitely subjugate the mind, there’s no reason for them not to do that.

On Glint: as you say, the alteration of the body on its own is not the corruption itself. Interestingly, another strange thing happens: when the dragon dies its minions will still go on “serving” it; I view this as an indication that the “mind corruption” was intended and shaped by the dragon.

So, again, the corruption of the body is a necessary step for the Dragons in order to turn their victims under their respective spheres of influence (in other words, once the body is corrupted, they’ll be able to tune in with their minds and fully twist them to their will).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Furthermore, in the rare cases where dragon corruption isn’t shown to use as a instantaneous process, we see physical and mental corruption advancing more or less at the same time.

Before Kellach completely fell to Zhaitan (when his body was definitely changed and imbued with the Dragon’s magic), he was a beacon for the risen, they followed him and weren’t totally under his control yet. The slow and gradual exposition to the Undead Dragon’s magic didn’t allow Zhaitan to have a full grip on him yet, not until fully corrupted in the body.

Same goes for the Sons of Svanir. They are brought to idolize Jormag, either by advice or by choice; most of them might welcome the dragon’s corruption as a gift, still not realizing what it really involves. Here, when the corruption process is slow it’s the same thing as Kellach’s: they’re not completely under the dragon’s sphere of influence until fully corrupted in the body.

Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.

P.S. Interesting informations regarding the spectral weapons, I totally missed that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They can exist if they seeds were purified while still seeds and placed in that cave. Ronan was never said to flee from the cave, but found monsters within it. Those monsters could have been purified mordrem too.

So, let’s assume this scenario is true: to start with, the seeds and some mordrem along with them were purified by someone from the dragon’s corruption with a process similar to Glint’s cleansing (I guess that’s what you’re thinking about with purified). They were then positioned in a cave (assuming they weren’t purifed in that same cave) and guarded indefinitely by some purified mordrem for whatever reason. Upon meeting Ronan, these purifed mordrem must have thought he was harmless, and not just that, but they must have welcomed him inside, offered him some tea and dismiss him with one seed for him to gift to his daugther (because, as you say, he did not flee, even though it’s implied he did: he snitched the seed and ran away). However, If this were the case (that every seed was purified in a manner similar to Glint’s) then Mordremoth should not be able to corrupt them back. Also, in this scenario, would the cave still be a safe place, still guarded by those purified mordrem, or was it overtaken by Mordremoth? Ultimately, all of this adds more questions than it answers.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Why would they not corrupt the seeds in the same way?

To quote what I said when responding to Aaron: “[the seeds] are in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.”. They weren’t purified because there was nothing to purify in the first place.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2. […] why are they restricted to this cave and not existent elsewhere?

Can you really assert that? I doubt so, since we haven’t explored all of Tyria nor have we come across that very same cave (not that we know at least). In addition to this, we witness another of these trees in its natural state: Revered Terebinth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. […] Blighting Trees, on the other hand, have no reason to communicate with non-mordrem – the Mordrem Commanders can do that for them

Once corrupted into Blighting Trees, they didn’t have a chance to evolve a mind similar to that of the Pale Tree and were just exploited by Mordremoth as a minion factory; they simply can’t project themselves like the Pale Tree (even if they had a reason to). And… are you saying the mordrem commanders communicate on behalf of the Trees? If so, what does that even mean? On a side note, there are stated to be three Bligthing Tree saplings overwatched by Cellona in Auric Basin.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

2. We never see other purified trees, whether Malyck’s tree or another, so we cannot say that they do not create an Avatar to talk with others.

You are under the assumption that the seeds were purified. For once, there’s the Revered Terebinth, an example of these Trees, but it’s still growing so we can’t know if, once matured, its mind will be powerful enough to communicate with its creations (the spirit in vicinity to it, taking the form of a typical nature spirit, is just a spirit connected to the tree). What we do know however is that the Pale Tree was cared for and her mind was elevated in the process, ascended in a way (using the term loosely here) and that Malyck doesn’t seem to communicate with its tree (as implied by Malyck’s conversations), hence it follows that its tree’s mind isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree.

-continues-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

While the physical change cannot be undone, they happen simultaneously in all dragon minion cases. It is not an order of events. And, ultimately, the mind is not corrupted – the free will is simply removed. Not subjugated either, removed.

As I said in response to Aaron, the “mind corruption” (total mind subjugation) has to follow the “physical corruption”. The victims are not completely under the various Dragons’ spheres of influence until fully corrupted in the body.
And… “the free will is removed”? How do you get that and what does it even mean? When an Elder Dragon gain access to a mind (by twisting the physical form setting it under its sphere of influence) it acts almost like a virus: it overwrites the will of the victim with its own. Regarding the few mordrem guards that still struggle with Mordremoth, it’s clear they weren’t yet fully subjugated, still aided in resisting by either the Dream, the Nightmare or the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mordremoth doesn’t corrupt sylvari in the traditional sense. This is a major error on your part. If it did, then we’d not see Mordrem Guard resisting him – dragon corruption is irresistible no matter what, both when it happens, and afterwards.
Yet we see sylvari resist the act of corruption, as well as the mental hold once Mordremoth’s voice goes quiet.

To quote myself: “Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.”. Sylvari are privileged creatures (or, at least, those who possess a strong link to, for example, the Pale Tree), beings connected to powerful entities which aid them in shielding their minds against the dragon’s “mind subjugation”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan is well known to corrupt living beings, actually.

All the cases and the creatures you mentioned (plants, quaggans, even Kellach) are a case of slow exposition to Zhaitan’s magics (except for the corrupted trees, those are already completely turned; trees are living creatures too and as such can come back from death as undead too); unless fully corrupted in the body, the dragon will not have full control over one’s mind: an incomplete physical corruption won’t give a dragon full access to the victim’s mind. Considering Kellach in particular, before falling completely to Zhaitan, he was a beacon for the risen to follow, which weren’t totally under his control yet. So, ultimately, one will fully be under Zhaitan’s control just once dead and reanimanted (risen), in other words when fully imbued with its magics; that’s just how Zhaitan does. To consider another example, the mysterious plague (which we also can come in contact with and which can be cleansed) will slowly imbue those affected with Zhaitan’s magic while simultaneously slowly killing the host.

Regarding Jormag:
1-2) When an ice formation attacks, it can be considered as an elemental (watch the Frozen Maw and the lesser maws, which are the ones to spawn icebrood elementals), while those that shape the environment are a representation of the magic itself (condensed magic).
3) I don’t know about the Dragonspawn (but given your definition that’s equal to an elemental), but I think the Claws of Jormag have the potential of being former dragons now corrupted.

Regarding Kralkatorrik:
1) I haven’t read the books, but this Crystalline Giant really sounds like an animated thing. The Shatterer, on the other hand, really was corrupted: portions of its body, like the legs, are still flesh (it’s clearly visible).
2) Do you sincerely view the lightnings as an attack made from the air? They are a collateral effect.
3) The soil is decayed? How can soil decay per se? As I explored up, in responding to Aaron, Zhaitan’s magic is flowing throught most of Orr (the region) thanks to the artesian well.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sock.2785:

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user)

There is no strong case for this, honestly, given that everyone and their grandmothers call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”.

I’ll discuss this on the other thread; here I’ll just say that mind and magic are intertwined; when magic comes from a specific source (a specific mind) it will be linked to that source.

Here’s a question for you: if sylvari were not created as dragon minions, why is Ruka’s first reaction to the sylvari PC to call them a mordrem?

You would think someone trained to combat dragon minions for two centuries would know the difference between a standard plant creature (that were common when Ruka and the other Exalted were humans) and a dragon minion (which are drastically different than creatures of the same element or whatnot).

Sock.2785:

So, let’s assume this scenario is true: to start with, the seeds and some mordrem along with them were purified by someone from the dragon’s corruption with a process similar to Glint’s cleansing (I guess that’s what you’re thinking about with purified). They were then positioned in a cave (assuming they weren’t purifed in that same cave) and guarded indefinitely by some purified mordrem for whatever reason. Upon meeting Ronan, these purifed mordrem must have thought he was harmless, and not just that, but they must have welcomed him inside, offered him some tea and dismiss him with one seed for him to gift to his daugther (because, as you say, he did not flee, even though it’s implied he did: he snitched the seed and ran away). However, If this were the case (that every seed was purified in a manner similar to Glint’s) then Mordremoth should not be able to corrupt them back. Also, in this scenario, would the cave still be a safe place, still guarded by those purified mordrem, or was it overtaken by Mordremoth? Ultimately, all of this adds more questions than it answers.

There’s nothing to indicate Ronan and the “terrible plant creatures” interacted at all. He likely saw them, saw them monstrous, presumed them hostile, and avoided being seen.

As I’ve said countless time on these forums, the Mordrem Guard are not corrupted – not by traditional means. He basically implanted thoughts, but that’s all. No more. No less. No physical change, no removal of their free will. This is why sylvari can resist “Mordremoth’s call” – because it isn’t dragon corruption. Dragon corruption cannot be resisted and cannot be purified without rare resources.

“In this scenario” – or any other scenario for that matter – we do not know the fate of the cave and its seeds. Presumably they were planted, given the existence of Malyck’s tree. This scenario doesn’t add any question but the same question that must be asked regardless: what makes sylvari immune, and why are the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree freed from corruption?

Sock.2785:

To quote what I said when responding to Aaron: “[the seeds] are in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.”. They weren’t purified because there was nothing to purify in the first place.

Why not just plant them immediately? There is no purpose in waiting from the Elder Dragons’ perspective except for when there’s too little magic in the world for the Elder Dragons themselves to be active. Based on the Eye of the North manual, destroyers were active far before EotN storyline. (“Those who dare to travel below realize the risk they take in doing so, and those who return tell wild stories of monsters made of fire and stone that move in the Depths.” https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Depths_of_Tyria )

And we know that Elder Dragons can corrupt inanimate things – Mordremoth not excluded. We even see them corrupting eggs (risen chicken eggs, risen spider eggs, risen drake eggs, risen raven eggs, branded devourer eggs being prime examples) which would be no less in an embryonic state than seeds.

Sock.2785:

Can you really assert that? I doubt so, since we haven’t explored all of Tyria nor have we come across that very same cave (not that we know at least). In addition to this, we witness another of these trees in its natural state: Revered Terebinth.

If the sylvari have been a long-standing race in Tyria and not in hibernation (ergo, dragon minions) but having seeds so close to civilization then there would be older trees nearby – with the production rate of the Pale Tree, these older trees would have hundreds of thousands of children adventuring out into the world. We’ve seen none, so it actually does stand to reason that there are none.

Re: Revered Terebinth see below.

Sock.2785:

Once corrupted into Blighting Trees, they didn’t have a chance to evolve a mind similar to that of the Pale Tree and were just exploited by Mordremoth as a minion factory; they simply can’t project themselves like the Pale Tree (even if they had a reason to). And… are you saying the mordrem commanders communicate on behalf of the Trees? If so, what does that even mean? On a side note, there are stated to be three Bligthing Tree saplings overwatched by Cellona in Auric Basin.

• There is no reason why the Blighting Trees would be the only dragon champions that are effectively brain dead, especially for an Elder Dragon of Mind.
• No, I’m not saying the commanders communicate on behalf of the trees – I’m saying that the trees have no reason to communicate, because whatever tauntings the mordrem hive mind can offer is done by the commanders near it. Similar to as we never see Blightghast talk but we see the other champions with it (Thaddeus Ghostwright for example) talk, or in Sea of Sorrows we see Captain Whiting talk but not The Maw.
• On that side note: I know. I mentioned her.

Sock.2785:

You are under the assumption that the seeds were purified. For once, there’s the Revered Terebinth, an example of these Trees, but it’s still growing so we can’t know if, once matured, its mind will be powerful enough to communicate with its creations […]. What we do know however is that the Pale Tree was cared for and her mind was elevated in the process, ascended in a way (using the term loosely here) and that Malyck doesn’t seem to communicate with its tree (as implied by Malyck’s conversations), hence it follows that its tree’s mind isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree.

You are under the outright false assumption that the Revered Terebinth is the same as the Pale Tree. It is not.

“Fiana was a gardener who fell in battle here, saving the lives of local hunters in the process. Her death transformed the soil and changed the natural growth of this tree.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gardener_Marithelle

It is a normal, natural tree that got changed by Fiana’s death. No doubt due to the sylvari’s attunement to plant magic.

As for Malyck: He never even met its tree while awake. Not while we knew him. So we cannot conclude that Malyck’s Tree’s mind “isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree”.

Sock.2785:

As I said in response to Aaron, the “mind corruption” (total mind subjugation) has to follow the “physical corruption”. The victims are not completely under the various Dragons’ spheres of influence until fully corrupted in the body.

False. Both happen simultaneously. There is not a single case you will EVER find in the game in which you’ll have a physically changed but mentally sound individual.

Sock.2785:

And… “the free will is removed”? How do you get that and what does it even mean?

I get it from Arah, the entire lore around Glint:

Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

It means that they have no free will. It means that “their will is the dragon’s” – a plot point made throughout the game.

Sock.2785:

Regarding the few mordrem guards that still struggle with Mordremoth, it’s clear they weren’t yet fully subjugated, still aided in resisting by either the Dream, the Nightmare or the Pale Tree.

You don’t seem to get it. There is no “partial subjugation” – except with Jormag, because he wants willing converts rather than slaves like the rest, including Mordremoth.

What Mordremoth does isn’t corruption in the first place. As described by Occam “Mordremoth’s call” takes the form of a “terrible voice”, “strange thoughts”, and a “this buzzing in [their] ears, like a horrible song that no one else can hear.” Which mirrors what we see for Scarlet too.

Sock.2785:

To quote myself: “Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.”. Sylvari are privileged creatures (or, at least, those who possess a strong link to, for example, the Pale Tree), beings connected to powerful entities which aid them in shielding their minds against the dragon’s “mind subjugation”.

They are “prvileged” but not in the fact that they are “already under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence”. That has no involvement with the matter.

Mordremoth corrupts plants, the plants change.

Jormag corrupts ice, the ice changes.

Corruption’s physical changes happen no matter what Material A is. It is always a case of: Material A (variable) changes into Material B (dependent on dragon). There is no ands, ifs, or buts. You will never find any case that is different.

Sylvari are a one of a kind situation because they are purified minions. A situation that has a ton of lore holes in it, but that’s what it is. That’s what ArenaNet has said.

Scarlet and Aerin were not corrupt in body because no Mordrem Guard is. Sylvari have a long standing lore that their body physically changes when dealt with a large amount of psychological stress. We saw this in Canach first, in Scarlet second, and in Caithe third. Then we see the extreme happen – individual sylvari becoming like clones in an army.

Sock.2785:

All the cases and the creatures you mentioned (plants, quaggans, even Kellach) are a case of slow exposition to Zhaitan’s magics

It may be slow exposure, but it’s exposure all the same. They are corrupted, and they are still living. They never die before turning, when they do turn.

Same as the conversion of Sons of Svanir to icebrood.

Sock.2785:

except for the corrupted trees, those are already completely turned; trees are living creatures too and as such can come back from death as undead too

Except those trees are still alive. Look at the leaves.

Trees become barren when they die.

Sock.2785:

unless fully corrupted in the body, the dragon will not have full control over one’s mind: an incomplete physical corruption won’t give a dragon full access to the victim’s mind.

Because the individual is not fully corrupted, not because the individual must be physically corrupted first.

Sock.2785:

Considering Kellach in particular, before falling completely to Zhaitan, he was a beacon for the risen to follow, which weren’t totally under his control yet.

Given that Kellach ordered the risen to attack the Ravenous ship, I call doubt into that claim that they weren’t under his control.

Sock.2785:

So, ultimately, one will fully be under Zhaitan’s control just once dead and reanimanted (risen)

Except that Kellach never died, and at the end he is in full control of the undead. I say. Again.

Sock.2785:

which we also can come in contact with and which can be cleansed

We know that corruption in small details can be cleansed. We do this during the charr personal story with the amulet experiments. Mind you, this is a recent development and does not purify creatures.

Sock.2785:

1-2) When an ice formation attacks, it can be considered as an elemental (watch the Frozen Maw and the lesser maws, which are the ones to spawn icebrood elementals), while those that shape the environment are a representation of the magic itself (condensed magic).

They’re never considered an elemental in either mechanics or lore.

Also you’re wrong about the spawning icebrood elementals – you talk about Corrupted Ice Formations but the ones that spawn elementals are Corrupted Ice which has an appearance closer to Corrupted Ice Cores which are your so-called “shape the environment.”

Sock.2785:

3) I don’t know about the Dragonspawn (but given your definition that’s equal to an elemental), but I think the Claws of Jormag have the potential of being former dragons now corrupted.

Part of a dragon, maybe, given that its legs look skeletal. But the wings and body definitely look formed of ice.

Sock.2785:

Regarding Kralkatorrik:
1) I haven’t read the books, but this Crystalline Giant really sounds like an animated thing. The Shatterer, on the other hand, really was corrupted: portions of its body, like the legs, are still flesh (it’s clearly visible).

I’ve looked at the Shattered thousands upon thousands of times. It’s full body is a stone with insides of air. Just look at its chest, the kitten thing is hollow.

Sock.2785:

2) Do you sincerely view the lightnings as an attack made from the air? They are a collateral effect.

When they’re actively striking something particularly, yes, it’s an attack. The landscape itself is often described as hostile by the Sentinels

Sock.2785:

3) The soil is decayed? How can soil decay per se? As I explored up, in responding to Aaron, Zhaitan’s magic is flowing throught most of Orr (the region) thanks to the artesian well.

That the soil is toxic and infertile. There’s actual NPC dialogue that mentions it, just as there’s Bailey talking about the air being putrid due to the corruption in the air.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1) The Crystalline Giant in Ghosts of Ascalon is the land itself attacking. So is the Shatterers, technically, both the land and air being corrupted into an assaulting force.

Ehh… I agree with your greater point, but not this bit of evidence. The giant was lazing around and looked like a hill, but nothing says that it had been part of the ground- “What it had been before the passing of Kralkatorrik was unknown”. Similarly, unless you’ve seen a source that I haven’t, the Shatterer thing is a theory, and a decent theory, but not confirmed fact.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On spectral weapons- the dialogue wasn’t on the wiki last I checked, but an asura in the Cathedral of Silence says they aren’t corrupted at all. He claims they’re just magically animated constructs, like golems, and he builds a device that’s successfully able to neutralize them on that principle.

I believe there is dialogue that says that those are corrupted, but that they’re corrupted Orrian constructs. One of the hero challenges dealing with fighting the things, I believe.

Went down the list, and saw a lot about ancient weapons imbued with power, but nothing about corruption. Funnily, one of them is even described as ‘masterless’.

@Sock It seems at this point we’re largely saying the same thing with different words, which makes things even stranger. You say that physical corruption must come before mental, and you acknowledge inanimate things can be changed, and once changed, channel the corruption. So why would Mordremoth not do that to the seeds? In fact, isn’t that what you’re saying blighting trees are, pale trees corrupted before they develop a mind?

Regarding the Terebinth- well, Konig was blunt, but I agree with his point there.

Back at Konig, regarding the Shatterer and the Claw- I believe what we’re seeing there is corruption consuming and eventually doing away with the original biology- like the mordrem troll example you cited earlier. Where icebrood specifically are concerned, we see the flesh replaced by ice, and the farther along the process is, both the more powerful and the older they appear to be. Yes, the colossi still have visible bones, but it doesn’t seem out of the question that an icebrood much more powerful, and possibly much older, would have had the bones replaced as well. In fact, I believe that might be a trend among dragons. We’re told the same happens with Primordus when he bothers to corrupt the living, so that’s three out of four dragons- and Zhaitan exhibits a similar process in reverse, when his corruption turns those trees you mentioned more fleshy, and grows monstrous forms out of flesh- the Mouth- the same way Jormag does of ice with the colossi. I don’t have any specific examples of Kralkatorrik following the same pattern, but no proof against either, and it’d be strange if he was the only exception out of five.

It’s not any more certain than your land/ice animation theory, but I don’t think it’s any less plausible, either.

The Shatterer’s has no skin, unlike all other Branded – whereas Icebrood all lose their skin eventually becoming just ice and bone (as far as we know the latest stages for icebrood retain their bones but it’s possible we’ll find some without further north), branded immediately become just skin (or chitin shells in devourer cases) and crystal. His body looks like the same blackened stone as the ground and when it dies it breaks up (like the bloodstone elementals do, actually). Furthermore, it is completely hollow – unlike every single former-creature dragon minion, especially branded.

I find it highly unlikely to argue that the Shatterer was once a living creature of any kind.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Here’s a question for you: if sylvari were not created as dragon minions, why is Ruka’s first reaction to the sylvari PC to call them a mordrem?
You would think someone trained to combat dragon minions for two centuries would know the difference between a standard plant creature (that were common when Ruka and the other Exalted were humans) and a dragon minion (which are drastically different than creatures of the same element or whatnot).

Why would the Exalted know about the sylvari? They’re new to Tyria, spawning for the first time roughly 30 years ago. In seeing a walking/thinking plant Ruka’s association to mordrem is understandable, especially since he already came in contact with mordrem before hand; there’s very little to distinguish the planty corruptions of Mordremoth from the sylvari at first glance. Unless of course Ruka said something like: “Beware of the sylvari, for they come from Mordremoth! Trust me, I can identify dragon minions, I was trained by the Forgotten in doing so.”.
The Exalted weren’t “trained”, as you say, to combat dragon minions, they are simply uncorruptible by “nature”; if anything they were instructed with overwatching Glint’s legacy, but in reality they (once humans) volunteered to. It’s not like they can say if something is corrupted or not, not more than we can anyway.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I’ve said countless time on these forums, the Mordrem Guard are not corrupted – not by traditional means. He basically implanted thoughts, but that’s all. No more. No less. No physical change, no removal of their free will. This is why sylvari can resist “Mordremoth’s call” – because it isn’t dragon corruption. Dragon corruption cannot be resisted and cannot be purified without rare resources.
[…] what makes sylvari immune, and why are the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree freed from corruption?

You kind of contraddict yourself here: in one hand you assume that sylvari turned by Mordremoth into Mordrem Guard are not corrupted (when they are, both physically and mentally) and on the other you assume that the Pale Tree, Malyck and it follows every single sylvari, or any creation of these trees in general, had to be cleansed from Mordremoth’s corruption. Do you see the confusion here?
Also, if they were purified dragon minions and Mordremoth was able to corrupt them back (but you argue that Mordrem Guards are not corrupted), why wasn’t Glint also corrupted back by Kralkatorrik? Unless I’m making the mistake of mixing the two purification processes; otherwise you are assuming things without any basis.

To clarify, would you explain what you mean with “purification” here? Or even point out the source where, to quote you, “that’s what ArenaNet has said”?

Also, regarding the sylvari changing their body, we never see a heavy transformation as we see happen with the Mordrem Guard (they get covered with thick bark all over, there’s no more “green” visible); Mordremoth corrupted them physically by imbuing them with even more plant magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why not just plant them immediately?
[…]
We even see them corrupting eggs

Once the Elder Dragons go back to sleep, it seems like their minions will mostly dissipate (except for the most powerful champions, whom can go in hybernation like their masters; and no, Blighting Trees are not dragon champions), so the seeds are prevented from germinating during this specific unsuitable condition, when the probability of seedling survival is low (difficult for the dragon to corrupt); in addition we don’t know the lifespan of these trees. To add on this, we have no idea if Mordremoth originally had any clue about the potentialities of these seeds, since he just uses the trees as “minion factories” (at least not until coming in contact with the Dream Realm through Scarlet).

The eggs you mention are a different case though (with Zhaitan, but we even witness a case with Primordus): they were obviously already fertilized before being corrupted (dragon minions are sterile, as a consequence of the “physical corruption” which alter their physical structure), but they were already in an advanced stage (fetal); all of this is true unless every single creature fertilized their eggs just moments before being corrupted. As far as I know, plant seeds (opposed to animal “eggs”) once fertilized can remain in a dormant state (watch seed dormancy).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except those trees are still alive. Look at the leaves.

The trees corrupted by Zhaitan are an undead version of the original tree. Their leaves still being there is no different from risen’s organs still being there, it’s death magic. Ultimately Zhaitan physically corrupt the living by imbuing them with his kind of magic (like any other Dragon), finally turning them undead (which implies killing them first).

-continues-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If the sylvari have been a long-standing race in Tyria and not in hibernation (ergo, dragon minions) but having seeds so close to civilization then there would be older trees nearby – with the production rate of the Pale Tree, these older trees would have hundreds of thousands of children adventuring out into the world. We’ve seen none, so it actually does stand to reason that there are none.
[…]You are under the outright false assumption that the Revered Terebinth is the same as the Pale Tree. It is not.
[…]There is no reason why the Blighting Trees would be the only dragon champions that are effectively brain dead, especially for an Elder Dragon of Mind.

Sylvari as we know them spawned on the face of Tyria for the first time roughly 30 years ago, there’s not a single historical evidence of them existing priorly. The trees themselves existed all around but they never reached their full mind potential, at least most of them; the Pale Tree is a unique incident, probably the first of its kind.
Regarding Terebinth, I never said it is equal to the Pale Tree, just that their origin is shared: they come from the same seeds. Also, as you pointed out, it’s stated that Fiana’s death “changed the natural growth of this tree” and not that “it changed the nature of the tree”, it’s radically different. The natural growth of the tree was influenced by that happening, similarly to what Ronan and Ventari did to the young Pale Tree.
As for the the Blighting Trees, never I intended to say they are braindead, just that when Mordremoth corrupts them their mind potential is forever lost (unless it would be possible to purify them like Glint).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They are “prvileged” but not in the fact that they are “already under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence”. That has no involvement with the matter.
[…]Corruption’s physical changes happen no matter what Material A is. It is always a case of: Material A (variable) changes into Material B (dependent on dragon). There is no ands, ifs, or buts. You will never find any case that is different.

I’d argue that them already being under Mordremoth’s “sphere of influence” is a crucial matter. They are already imbued with plant magic. The notion of “Material A into Material B” just breaks down with the sylvari, since they’re already plants, hence already under Mordremoth’s sphere (which doesn’t imply being corrupted); but they’re aided by powerful entities (such as the Pale Tree and the Dream) in resisting the jungle dragon (I’ve gone in detail on this topic in another thread if you’re interested: the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists). Your counterargument to this is that Mordrem Guards (sylvari imbued with even more plant magic by Mordremoth) are not corrupted by the jungle dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that Kellach never died, and at the end he is in full control of the undead. I say. Again.

Kellach never died? Really? At the end he turns undead, fully corrupted (not just diseased). Before turning undead one must be inevitably and technically dead, that’s the very definition of the term.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We know that corruption in small details can be cleansed. We do this during the charr personal story with the amulet experiments. Mind you, this is a recent development and does not purify creatures.

But we do see creatures being purified from small amounts of “corruption” by the priory: mysterious plague.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They’re never considered an elemental in either mechanics or lore.

There’s no doubt the Frozen Maw is a giant ice elemental; we also witness a similar one in the Snowblind Fractal where it’s also defined as an Elemental Source.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’ve looked at the Shattered thousands upon thousands of times. It’s full body is a stone with insides of air. Just look at its chest, the kitten thing is hollow.

If you happen to, try to look at it once more without preconceptions: its legs (the back ones) are quite clearly an indication of a creature being turned by corruption; they look fleshy. Its chest being hollow is just an indication that it was imbued by Kralkatorrik’s magic way more than regular minions; the Shatterer is, after all, a dragon champion.

This is getting stupidly long and repetative so I’m going to summarize my points:

On Exalted:

• Exalted were trained to fight dragon minions because their entire purpose is to protect Glint’s legacy from dragon minions – the Tarir meta and Dragon Vigil story instance proves that not only can they take the heat, they can dish it out too.
• Exalted – including Ruka – were around when plant creatures not tied to Mordremoth were commonplace – in the very odd case Exalted weren’t told what a mordrem was, he’d be more likely to have called the sylvari a Thorn Stalker.

On sylvari as an individual species:

• If sylvari are new to this time period, they could not be a pre-existing species, your original claim.
• If they are a pre-existing species, but not seen in this time period, then they would have to have been hibernating for several thousand years. Only things to do that are Elder Dragons and their minions.
• If they were pre-existing species but not hibernating, they would have been around before recently. They would be known. This is not the case.
• Only alternative would be a brand new species born from nothing. This does not happen naturally so quickly, so would have to be magical. However, everything Ronan and Ventari did, Elonian centaurs have done for centuries if not millennia – no sylvari existed before.
• You say these trees exist. So point them out. You haven’t yet, and I can tell you right now: you never will. The Pale Tree is a one-of-a-kind tree in either game. In appearance, size, and speed of growth.

On Mordrem Guard and sylvari corruption:

• There’s no contradiction at all. Basically what happened is:
  • Subject A (Unknown) was corrupted into Subject B (Mordrem).
  • Subject B (Mordrem) was purified into Subject C (Sylvari)
  • Subject C (Sylvari) were brainwashed – but not corrupted – into Subject D (Mordrem Guard).
• Dragon corruption, by definition, is irreversible both physically and mentally without the aid of external ancient and/or powerful magic. We see a Mordrem Guard return to his own self during Buried Insights. This is impossible if it was dragon corruption. The entirety of the Personal Story makes this very point-blank and explicit. Go replay it. It’s what made the purification of Orr such a huge thing – it was defying the impossible and proving it possible – but even then, it was needing powerful magic. Buried Insight has zero magic, let alone powerful magic.
• As for their physical change – we see some pretty drastic sylvari appearance changes. True, not as drastic as the Mordrem Guard, but all sylvari appearance changes we see otherwise are still seeing themselves as individuals, not identity-less clones in an army for their master. This is why only the leaders look different.
• If any Mordrem Guard are “corrupted” then it would be those reborn from the Blighting Trees, such as the three commanders.

On Glint and recorrupting the purified:

• Mordremoth never bothered trying to corrupt the Pale Tree.
• Despite all of Glint’s defenses in GW1, all of the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders not a single one was present when Kralkatorrik killed Glint.
• My theory is that those directly purified are immune to recorruption (Glint, Pale Tree, Malyck’s Tree, etc.), but those made by the purified can be.
• Even then, sylvari are largely immune as well – whether this is due to the ‘purification’ or due to the Dream is unclear though. I’d argue the latter, that without the Dream Mordremoth can corrupt in a more traditional sense than having to go about with “buzzing in the ears” and “strange thoughts” that he subjects the sylvari to constantly to win them over. We’d need to toss Malyck at an Elder Dragon to know, though.

On “that’s what ArenaNet has said”

• What ArenNet has said is that the sylvari are dragon minions. It was all over HoT promotions. They never talked about how they’re not under his control – that is one huge kitten black gap in lore.

On Blighting Trees:

• Dragon champions, by definitions, are powerful minion-making/corruption spreading minions far faster than other minions (even large numbers of regular minions) and are often capable of directing other minions. This is what Blighting Trees do. That makes them dragon champions.
• “As for the the Blighting Trees, never I intended to say they are braindead, just that when Mordremoth corrupts them their mind potential is forever lost (unless it would be possible to purify them like Glint).” – That sounds like you’re calling them braindead.

On dragon minions over 10,000 years:

• We really don’t know what happened to the dragon minions over the 10,000 years. Most likely they were systematically hunted down by the remanent Forgotten, dwarves, and Glint. But we know plenty survived, and more than just three dragon champions. Like I quoted, there are old legends of the Depths of Tyria of what effectively describes the destroyers existing for centuries.

On seeds and eggs:

• You’re making the error of treating dragon minions as reproducing like standard creatures when we know for a very strong fact that this is not the case – dragon minions, in general, cannot reproduce. At all. The only such forms of this is pregnant creatures being corrupted.
• Which means that the seeds must be germinated, that the eggs must be fertilized, upon corruption. Otherwise they’re hunks of corrupted objects that may or may not become sapient minions of that material directly rather than the creature it should be.

On the Terebinth and relation to the Pale Tree.

• The seeds are not shared and you have no support for this. They look nothing alike either, which if they shared origin, they would. The Terebinth would be a white oak, like the Pale Tree.
• Ronan and Ventari did not change the growth of the tree. Ventari himself outright shows surprise at the Pale Tree’s rapid growth – what was done to it was not done by Ventari.
• In this segment, you also admitted that the Pale Tree is not natural, which was – as I understood it – your original argument. You’re going back on yourself now.

On Risen Trees, Kellach, and “risen are undead”

• Calling the risen “undead” is a massive misnomer – like saying “Mordremoth is the jungle” (he isn’t – he is, at most, just his corruption). Risen are not undead. Tyrians call them undead because they are ignorant. They see rotting people walking. They’re used to these being undead, like from the Cataclysm or under Joko’s command, so they call them undead. But they are not undead.
• Risen can be living or dead, plant or animal, soil, water, air, metal or clay – like every other dragon minion, the material that they once were is irrelevant: it gets changed into something else.
• Animals don’t lose their organs when they die. That analogy is poor and is more accurate comparison to saying the trees aren’t hollowed out – which is true, they aren’t. But they still have their leaves. Which they’d have lost if they died.
• Per Kellach: Go replay the story instance. Pay attention.
  • He doesn’t fall to the ground. He doesn’t even begin to fall. He does the roar animation (same as when risen become enraged/berserking/whatever it’s called) and his model changes.
  • He. Doesn’t. Die. Not until you kill him, where he stays dead.
  • You’re caught on the misnomers used to create subjective truths across the game.

On corrupting things of the Elder Dragons’ sphere of influence:

• Icebrood Elementals make your argument make no sense – you have ice magic creatures (thus “in Jormag’s sphere” by your argument) and they have no privileges and their change is as drastic as anything else (such as norn to Icebrood Norn). And you just constantly ignore this.
• In every single other case your argument falls apart. It only works for sylvari, because sylvari are unique and their uniqueness holds nothing with “what they are made out of” but “their origins and ties to the Dream”. But your argument is speaking in a general sense and against what is known to make them unique.

On the Frozen Maw and The Shatterer:

• It is a Greater Ice Elemental. That’s what it’s called. Note. Ice Elemental. Not Icebrood Elemental. The Frozen Maw is not icebrood.
• My original look at the Shatterer was with the preconception that it was a corrupted being. I saw it all. None of it looked fleshy. Please provide a screenshot with an arrow pointing to this supposed “fleshy” part. Because I’ve never seen it, no matter how many times I’ve hacked at that ankle of his. It looks no different than its head, which looks like finely sculpted stone (and when it moves, almost looks like clay – not flesh – but that’s what the mind would register stone that changes shape as, I guess).
  • I highly doubt that its chest being hollow is not indication it was corrupted with more crystal magic than others. Why would crystal result in hollowness? That makes sense.

Jeeze, even trying to summarize gets long…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On Glint and recorrupting the purified:

• Mordremoth never bothered trying to corrupt the Pale Tree.
• Despite all of Glint’s defenses in GW1, all of the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders not a single one was present when Kralkatorrik killed Glint.
• My theory is that those directly purified are immune to recorruption (Glint, Pale Tree, Malyck’s Tree, etc.), but those made by the purified can be.
• Even then, sylvari are largely immune as well – whether this is due to the ‘purification’ or due to the Dream is unclear though. I’d argue the latter, that without the Dream Mordremoth can corrupt in a more traditional sense than having to go about with “buzzing in the ears” and “strange thoughts” that he subjects the sylvari to constantly to win them over. We’d need to toss Malyck at an Elder Dragon to know, though.

Another consideration is simply that Glint’s mind is stronger than that of the typical sylvari, or that, being familiar with her former master’s thoughts, she’s able to recognise them as an external thought and not allow them to influence her thinking. (Kind of like Occam and Canach were able to practically ignore it.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On seeds and eggs:

• You’re making the error of treating dragon minions as reproducing like standard creatures when we know for a very strong fact that this is not the case – dragon minions, in general, cannot reproduce. At all. The only such forms of this is pregnant creatures being corrupted.
• Which means that the seeds must be germinated, that the eggs must be fertilized, upon corruption. Otherwise they’re hunks of corrupted objects that may or may not become sapient minions of that material directly rather than the creature it should be.

We’ve had this exchange before, but I would point out again that the ‘dragon minions never reproduce’ thing comes purely from the Order mentors and may not be reliable. After all, the orders have only incomplete knowledge of the dragons and their minions: laying eggs of stone and lava that hatch into Destroyers may be the primary means of creating new Destroyers, we just don’t see it very often because usually the champions that spawn new Destroyers in this fashion are safely deep underground.

Similarly, it’s highly likely that Mordremoth’s blighting trees reproduce via seeds. The Blighting Pods aren’t actually that different from a seed pod, after all, and when you’re the Elder Dragon of Plants, why come up with a new system of creating new trees when you can use the one that already exists?

Of course, those seeds might effectively be parthogenesis (who needs genetic variation when Mordremoth’s creations are obviously perfect in any way?) or, conversely, grow into something that has no genetic relation to the parent apart from also being a plant.

Broadly speaking, dragon minions appear to be a bit like a multilevel insect hive. The regular soldiers don’t reproduce unless there’s a tactical benefit to them doing so. The majority of recruitment is through corruption and/or from midlevel queens (the Blighting Trees, the Destroyer Queen, the Bringers of Destruction, possibly the Great Destroyer itself), working up to the dragon that is the ultimate queen of the hive.

• I highly doubt that its chest being hollow is not indication it was corrupted with more crystal magic than others. Why would crystal result in hollowness? That makes sense.

Geodes? :P

“Unfortunately”, the original topic inevitably intercepts with others, spawning different discussions more or less connected.

@Konig: Ultimately you approached and/or refuted most of my propositions guided by various assumptions, common ideas now taken for granted or misguided by misinterpretation.

Let me show some examples of this:

Konig Des Todes.2086

If sylvari are new to this time period, they could not be a pre-existing species, your original claim.

• That’s nowhere to be found in my original claim. I implicitly claimed that the seeds are a natural pre-existing species; in my view sylvari spawn from the Mists (the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists) and come to the flesh world via these Trees, the Pale Tree being the primary example.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Exalted – including Ruka – were around when plant creatures not tied to Mordremoth were commonplace – in the very odd case Exalted weren’t told what a mordrem was, he’d be more likely to have called the sylvari a Thorn Stalker.

• For once, why even bother building so close to the jungle? They could avoid mordrem totally this way. But I’m digressing… So with this you are implying that the Exalted cannot possibly mistake a plant creature like a sylvari as a threat, a creature which ultimately they never came in contact with, because they were instructed by the Forgotten in recognizing mordrem (Forgotten’s crash course: “dragon minions for dummies – how to identify them”, attend today, before our serpentine races disappears from Tyria!).
  We know they’ve been at war with mordrem for quite a while now (the Exalted) and it follows they associated plant creatures with a threat, a thing to regard with concern to say the least.

Konig Des Todes.2086

We see a Mordrem Guard return to his own self during Buried Insights. This is impossible if it was dragon corruption.

• I tried to answer that with my own proposition but you never took it in consideration, instead you just kept reiterating your point. Summarizing, I said that those specific mordrem guards (even though I think we interact with just one) are still not fully subjugated by Mordremoth in the mind and are still struggling (given that their connection to the Dream aids them in resisting). It looks like that specific Mordrem Guard that Canach talked with finally fell to Mordremoth in the end.

Konig Des Todes.2086

What ArenNet has said is that the sylvari are dragon minions. It was all over HoT promotions. They never talked about how they’re not under his control – that is one huge kitten black gap in lore.

• The main assumption one can make upon opening this thread is: “this contraddicts lore”, when if anything it contraddicts what we think to be true. Unless you provide me an example (which you didn’t for now), the only real assertion that the sylvari come from Mordremoth comes from Wynne (as I said in the main post), a sylvari herself who stated that she saw it in the Dream. We know for a fact that these dreams can be misinterpreted.

Konig Des Todes.2086

You’re making the error of treating dragon minions as reproducing like standard creatures

• I made it quite clear that those eggs should have been fertilized before the corruption took place (I even said “dragon minions are sterile”). Ultimately, that “minions naturally reproduce” it’s not what I meant to say.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which means that the seeds must be germinated

• Only if you assume they’re corrupted in the first place. After all Ronan snitched a seed, not a seedling.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

You say these trees exist. So point them out. You haven’t yet, and I can tell you right now: you never will. The Pale Tree is a one-of-a-kind tree in either game. In appearance, size, and speed of growth.

• For once, all the Blighting Trees come from those seeds (I said that from the start), but they’ve been corrupted. Secondly, I proposed Terebinth, but it looks like you discarded my latest explanation, not even considering it. I’ll try to propose it again, quoting: “[…] it’s stated that Fiana’s death “changed the natural growth of this tree” and not that “it changed the nature of the tree”, it’s radically different. The natural growth of the tree was influenced by that happening, similarly to what Ronan and Ventari did to the young Pale Tree.”.

Konig Des Todes.2086

That sounds like you’re calling them braindead.

• I explicetly told you that’s not what I meant and you keep going on this route; not much for me to say anymore I guess.
  Also, Blighting Trees are not dragon champions: they just indirectly spread the corruption by producing minions (they’re exploited by Mordremoth as “minion factories”) and we can’t assume they direct minions.

These were just some examples.

— Update on the whole idea (thread; main post) —

I made a mistake when saying that we don’t see any other avatar associated to a Tree. We see Mordremoth itself, the very origin of the corruption, presenting to us in its avatar form once we’re in the Dream (the Realm). It itself was generated from one of those same seeds, it is one of those Trees and projects itself with a reptilian form, identifiable as a dragon, because those were the creatures populating Tyria a long way back. A similar helix to the one we see rotating in the Heart of Thorns (the PoI) can be spotted in the Grove, the actual body of the Pale Tree.
This still doesn’t imply however that the seeds came from him, since we know corrupted creatures can’t naturally reproduce, Elder Dragons in primis.
This would also provide a firmer explanation to why Mordremoth is able to enter the Dream of Dreams (the Realm) and communicate with the Realm’s creations.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mordremoth never bothered trying to corrupt the Pale Tree.

I doubt it even could corrupt the Pale Tree at this stage, given the Tree’s powerful mind and deep connection to the Dream; he might as well shut it down completely by killing it, since it’s identified as a threat now.
After all, Mordremoth even struggles to corrupt sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Despite all of Glint’s defenses in GW1, all of the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders not a single one was present when Kralkatorrik killed Glint.

Are you saying those are Glint’s minions? While some could have been summoned by Glint, they are elementals in the end; they can even be spotted in GW2, in Glint’s Lair, continuing to form long after Glint’s death.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[The Risen] are not undead. Risen can be living or dead, plant or animal, soil, water, air, metal or clay […] But they still have their leaves. […] Kellach

To start, I don’t understand this: are you saying water, air, metals, soil or clay are either living or dead? How can those even be considered Risen? I must have misinterpreted, since it doesn’t make sense to me.
Anyway, are Kellach and some corrupted trees your only examples of “living Risen”? Firstly, the trees just got corrupted and might still be in the early phases, hence still having the leaves attached; secondly, when you assume that Kellach is alive when fully turned, what do you exactly mean? That he still fulfills his living physiological functions?
Yes, Zhaitan can start the corruption process even from living beings, but they cannot be considered proper Risen until fully turned, when their physical body completely changes (Kellach fully turned just at the end), dieing in the process, just to rise (Risen) once again, undead, under Zhaitan’s full control.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

Icebrood Elementals make your argument make no sense – you have ice magic creatures (thus “in Jormag’s sphere” by your argument) and they have no privileges and their change is as drastic as anything else (such as norn to Icebrood Norn). And you just constantly ignore this.

Honestly, I wasn’t even considering this as an issue; and it isn’t, under my viewpoint.
Every ice elemental naturally falls under Jormag’s “sphere”, that’s true (the magic is the same); however, not every ice elemental we see is corrupted by Jormag in the end (it’s not like, upon rising, every single bit of ice belongs to Jormag). Also, why would they have any “privilege” (similarly to the sylvari)? Firstly, elementals’ minds are very simple; secondly, they aren’t aided in resisting the corruption by a higher entity, similarly to the sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[sylvari’s] uniqueness holds nothing with “what they are made out of”

Are you implying that’s what I meant? Because it’s not.
Would you point out to where I (supposedly) said that?
Also, I now understand your “issue” with the ice elementals: it’s called misinterpration.

Konig Des Todes.2086

The Frozen Maw is not icebrood.

While this is true, it is summoned and controlled by a Svanir shaman, and I bet their intention is trying to corrupt it. I’d argue that the corrupted ice formations are a miniature version of the Frozen Maw, themselves preceded by corrupted ice, inert compositions that spawn icebrood elementals upon destruction; main difference being that these minor ice formations are already corrupted.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I highly doubt that its chest being hollow is not indication it was corrupted with more crystal magic than others. Why would crystal result in hollowness? That makes sense.

Another one of your mistakes here: we assume Kralkatorrik uses crystal magic, it’s just common knowledge; that’s one of the forms its magic takes. Even ice is a crystal, this doesn’t imply that Jormag uses crystal magic, which is something that we, again, assume to be a thing.
Anyway, the Shatterer’s legs are somewhat visible on the image found in the wiki (link); there are clear hints of muscle tissue under the tainted skin (it’s somewhat visible from that image).

In conclusion:

Konig Des Todes.2086

In this segment, you also admitted that the Pale Tree is not natural, which was – as I understood it – your original argument. You’re going back on yourself now.

Can the process of nurturing a human child, and trying to guide him/her with your “ways”, be considered unnatural?
Noticeably, the Trees spawning from these seeds (Pale Tree included) do not naturally have a parental figure like we humans do (them being plants), but, like a child, they have the potential in developing and refine their mind.
Give these Trees no stimuli and their minds will be dull; they’ll linger with their physical nature. Give these Trees any kind of interaction with other minds and they’ll assimilate from those. What Ventari and Ronan unknowingly did was exactly that, they transmitted their teachings to the Pale Tree, who slowly assimilated and learned from them, gaining a higher consciousness in the long run.

If any tree or plant could do this (like what you think happened with the Revered Terebinth), why even present us with this “seeds in a cave” concept to start with? Also, funnily enough, the Revered Terebinth looks more like a white oak than the Pale Tree itself (clearly because it’s still young and growing), have you even seen it in game? It also has that typical tangly vibe to it.

Not going to quote, but responding to each of your bullets in order:

• I was listing all plausible scenarios there… I thought I made that clear.
  • As an aside: Okay, let’s argue the sylvari are “spawn from the Mists” (I’ll argue this at the end), what about the Pale Tree? We see a multitude of trees treated like the Pale Tree, or better, for centuries by the centaurs and nothing even close to the Pale Tree. For all your returns to the Terebinth, you ignore that this has been happening for centuries.
• The Exalted/Forgotten built Tarir there intentionally:
  • “We raised this haven at the edge of Mordremoth’s jungle, but no Elder Dragon can touch us here. Our magic shields the city from them. Here you will wait in stasis for the signs, and much time may pass before you awaken to the call.” https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Gold
  • If they’ve been at war with mordrem, and are trained to recognize mordrem, then why would they mistake common plant creatures as mordrem? That’s like saying you’re a norn who mistakes ice elementals for icebrood, or a Rata Novan who mistook embers for destroyers. So yes, I am saying that there is no logical reason why an individual trained with fighting and having been fighting a foe, would mistake an individual of similar “nationality”, shall we say, for being that foe’s nationality.
• That Mordrem Guard in Buried Insight fell to Mordremoth because Canach forced him back to it. That Mordrem Guard explicitly states that it was fully under control. He broke control because, as Canach says, “Mordremoth’s voice was growing to a great bellow as we drew closer. Here, it’s a whisper. It’s a welcome respite.”
• On a quick search: ‘Yes, it’s true—sylvari were created to be dragon minions. And now Mordremoth has called them home.’ There were many other press releases, videos, and such which explicitly state that Mordremoth are the origin of sylvari.
• You were also making it quite clear that “Once the Elder Dragons go back to sleep, it seems like their minions will mostly dissipate the seeds are prevented from germinating during this specific unsuitable condition, when the probability of seedling survival is low” – thing is, that’s treating the seeds like normal seeds even if they were dragon minions. I wasn’t saying you weren’t treating the eggs as if already fertilized, I was saying that like the eggs having to be fertilized, so do seeds have to be able to sprout.
• And yes, we should “assume” they were corrupted in the first place. There would be little or no other time for them to have been corrupted so that sylvari would be “created to be dragon minions” – the only thing created to be dragon minions, are dragon minions.
• We actually do not know where Blighting Trees come from – nothing really implies they come from the same cave of seeds as Malyck’s Tree and the Pale Tree. In fact, given the existence of both Malyck’s Tree and the Pale Tree, it is a safer assumption to believe they did not come from that cave.
  • I didn’t consider it because the Terebinth is nothing like the Pale Tree in any way, shape or form. It just isn’t. Yes, a sylvari’s death there altered the tree, but not in a way as to let it grow rapidly within years, not in a way that it becomes sapient and communicative with those around it, and not in a way that it can move its limbs and roots at will with at least limited degrees. There are ZERO similarities between the two. That’s why I dismiss it… as I stated already. It’s more that you’re not even considering my statement that there is no similarity.
• Actually, there is a route for you to go: to actually explain what you meant if not braindead. You never did.
  • Also, yes they are champions. They’ren ot indirectly spreading corruption, they’re directly spreading corruption. And making dozens upon dozens is a very definition of a dragon champion. Fun fact: minion factories are overseen by a dragon champion. Zhaitan’s were. Kralkatorrik’s are. To quote an NPC:
  • Centurion Bloodfist: “No, they came back the very next day-as Branded, bringing destruction to the Legion’s rear defenses.”
  • Sentinel Whiptail: “But nothing short of a full crystal lieutenant could turn them so fast!”
  • Centurion Bloodfist: “Generally, yes. But there have been no sightings here for weeks. We think we’re dealing with something new.”
  • If it’s creating a lot of minions at a face pace: nothing short of a dragon champion can do that. (Note for clarity: “dragon lieutenant” and “dragon champion” appear to be used interchangeably, or possibly used in the confusing sense that the former is a lower rank of the later). Only in rare exceptions is this otherwise, and that’s usually when the location is steeped in dragon corruption. Which is not the case with Blighting Trees.

• Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon.. the Mouth of Mordremoth is its physical body (and from its body, the vines grow). It is not a tree. It just lives around one – that tree is actually an ancient Stonewood tree which we see a handful of throughout HoT (one collapsed one in Verdant Brink, one upright one we can travel through in Tangled Depths, and the Heart of Thorns corrupted one).
  • Elder Dragons – thus including Mordremoth – are not corrupted. They corrupt. Big difference.
• Mordremoth has a pretty kitten high success rate for “struggling” to “corrupt” sylvari… I’d have to disagree. It’s more that sylvari struggle to not fall to Mordremoth. He clearly has the upper hand in the mental battles.
• Yes, I am implying that the Crystal Guardians and the Crystal Spiders are potentially purified branded offshoots. They are “elementals” because of mechanics only. Back in GW1, especially Prophecies’ creation, the Elder Dragons wasn’t a concept in the devs’ minds – Glint was just a dragon back then, who created all these crystalline defenses because she had a crystal theme to her. Them being purified branded would be a retcon, technically, just as Glint being a dragon champion is.
  • The only ones remnant in Glint’s lair are fragments of the landscape and the facets – though I’ll admit that their presence is an oddity given the total lack of using them when fighting Kralkatorrik. They’re not really continuing to form, since it’s outright stated that the entire lair is degrading.
• “are you saying water, air, metals, soil or clay are either living or dead?” – Everything has a rate of decay. Water goes foul, air becomes unbreathable, metals rust, soil loses its nutrition. Everything decays over time. So, in a sense, yes they are “either living or dead”. Zhaitan’s magic pushes things to those decays – which take different forms over different materials.
  • And anything corrupted by Zhaitan’s magic is considered a “risen” since that is what his corruption is labeled – the term “risen” is a Tyrian made term because the vast majority of his corruption influences the dead who “rise” (or ‘become risen’) and move again (all dragon minion names are Tyrian-made descriptors – destroyers are called such because they destroy all in sight; branded are called such because they come from the Dragonbrand; icebrood are a brood made of/turning into ice; mordrem stem from Mordremoth). In the same sense, anything can become mordrem, icebrood, destroyer, or branded. Their appearance will change to that of decay, plant, ice, fire, or crystal depending on the corrupting force, but the subject being corrupted is irrelevant – all things except magical things tied to Forgotten and the Six can be corrupted. The question is will the dragon choose to corrupt it? not can it be influenced by the corruption? because, as said, unless it’s a rare case, it can be influenced by the corruption… even if it’s a non-corpse being made into a decayed or rotting version of itself.
  • “Living risen” are a rare thing because every Elder Dragon has a preference for what it corrupts – for example Jormag prefers to corrupt willing converts while Primordus prefers to corrupt rock and lava – and Zhaitan’s preference is corpses. But they exist.
  • The trees are, if I’m correct, corrupted for years (Bloodtide Coast is said to have been a place where corpses wash ashore in Ghosts of Ascalon, but dialogue there indicates it’s been under assault since Port Noble was wiped out decades ago)… and it only takes weeks at most to fully succumb to corruption of any Elder Dragon.
  • “when you assume that Kellach is alive when fully turned, what do you exactly mean?” That he doesn’t die between the state of “being alive and partially corrupted” and “being fully corrupted”. He goes straight from living to a risen. Without a death. There is no “dying in the process, just to rise once again” as you constantly claim. It doesn’t happen. At all. Go play through it if you really don’t believe me – he only takes the risen appearance in the Vigil path, btw.
    **_ “That he still fulfills his living physiological functions?”_ Does any dragon minion do this? Do any branded breath? They no longer have lungs. Do they eat? I guess you can say they eat magic (so would Kellach).

• I bring up ice elementals because of your original statement: “On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.” (btw, this would be the answer to “Would you point out to where I (supposedly) said that?” question) That “first stage”, by your argument, is the physical corruption – basically that sylvari are ‘special’ (or privileged – you’re mistaking the use to mean a benefit to sylvari when I’m using it as a benefit to Mordremoth) and only need to be corrupted by the second stage, the mind. While I’d argue the entire first/second stage is a load of false argument (your sole reasoning for it is because the Forgotten ritual didn’t reverse Glint’s or Twitchy’s bodies – all this proves is what we knew: that corruption changes both body and mind (or more accurately, existence of free will) but the Forgotten ritual could only revert one side of the corruption; it does not prove or indicate that “physical corruption must happen first” or that they are not done instantaneously which all other evidence in the game indicates and downright proves).
  • By this argument you had set up, Jormag would be able to skip the physical change with Ice Elementals, or more simply put, not need to imbue Ice Elemental with ice magic. However, he does – we know this because their appearance changes, rather drastically in fact.
  • Basically, your argument on the sylvari should extend to elementals, but as we quite literally see, is not the case.
• The shaman summons the Frozen Maw to kill those who destroyed the totem to Jormag. While corrupting it may be an eventual intention, it is far from the current.
  • Corrupted Ice Formations are not miniature versions of a Greater Ice Elemental. Miniature versions of a Greater Ice Elemental would be… Ice Elementals.
  • Corrupted Ice is not always inert, you know. And yes, I’m referring to the object linked, as well as their alternative forms. They spread outwards, and though they do not strike at players they do destroy buildings and they also imprison individuals (turning them into icebrood – as per the end of this event )
• Kralkatorrik is called the Elder Crystal Dragon. These terms is always the first sphere of influence for the Elder Dragon – and is also the form their corruption takes. Elder Death Dragon, Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Ice Dragon, Elder Vegetation Dragon/Elder Plant Dragon, Elder Crystal Dragon. The only dragon who’s first sphere of influence we do not know is the deep sea dragon.
  • I actually looked specifically at that image. All I see is stone that moves its shape. Which do often look like it could be a partial-liquid, or wet-clay, or flesh… but it’s still stone. There’s no “clear hints of muscle tissue”, just shaped stone. It looks like a well sculpted sculptor to me. Similar to the head.

• “Can the process of nurturing a human child, and trying to guide him/her with your “ways”, be considered unnatural?" Teeeechnically, society does say it is… “nature versus nurture” after all. But this isn’t really what you’re saying because… “in my view sylvari spawn from the Mists” which is definitely unnatural. And I’d disagree, though now I’m not sure if that’s an argument for this page or the other. My main disagreement being that the Dream isn’t a physical place and for them to be “spawn from the Mists” you need portals from the Mists – but the entire time the sylvari are in the Dream, their bodies are in the pods. Basically, their minds are in the Dream while their bodies are forming in Tyria. This would mean they couldn’t be “spawn from the Mists” because, well, they’re born in Tyria…
  • “Give these Trees any kind of interaction with other minds and they’ll assimilate from those. What Ventari and Ronan unknowingly did was exactly that, they transmitted their _teachings to the Pale Tree, who slowly assimilated and learned from them, gaining a higher consciousness in the long run."_ Funny thing is that while you’re constantly going to the Terebinth, you completely ignore the Ancestor Trees I already linked to. Ronan and Ventari do nothing more to the Pale Tree than the centaurs have been doing to trees for centuries. And no sylvari-like spawn come from them. No intelligence of trees shown. Yet “sylvari are spawn of the Mists, but the tree is an old species” or so you seem to be arguing… if the Pale Tree is of an old species, why have the Maguuma centaurs never, in centuries, never created a prior Pale Tree? (And yes, Ancestor Trees are a Tyrian centaur thing too, as seen by the tree in the center of the Dry Top centaur camp).
  • “If any tree or plant could do this (like what you think happened with the Revered Terebinth),” No, you have been presenting that the Terebinth is like the Pale Tree. You are presenting that there have been generations of these trees – because they cannot just be popping out of nowhere, even if the sylvari do. You have been the one arguing that it isn’t just the seeds in the cave. Not me. You. I’ve been saying from the beginning that the is only the seeds of the cave, purified corrupted seeds in dormancy just like Glint’s egg(s), hidden there from an unknown amount of time.
  • “Also, funnily enough, the Revered Terebinth looks more like a white oak than the Pale Tree itself (clearly because it’s still young and growing), have you even seen it in game? It also has that typical tangly vibe to it.” Still looks nothing like the Pale Tree did when young.

(This character limit is killer)

Every comment on this thread seems to be an entire essay lol.
To me it seems pretty well established that Sylvari are dragon minions since not only does the entire plot of HoT revolve around this, it was also mentioned by the devs a few times around the time it was revealed. But oh wel, what do I know :P

I do not think the Sylvari are truly Mordremoths either. He may say they belong to him as a king would say anyone person or animal in his kingdom belongs to the King. Since Mordy is Nature/Plant he may claim them all as his own. For all we know the Sylvari could of been from Melandru . We look at the Sylvari turned by Mordy he not only reshaped their bodies and twisted their minds. Meaning them looking like a human was not what he wanted. Yet we see Malyck is as normal as any other Sylvari.
Second the Inquest know a lot about Dragon Magic, they have been known to experiment on Sylvari, using them like batteries. If the Sylvari was dragon magic the Inquest would of known. They then could of used that Info to easily take political control of Rata sum and get all the other races to easily fall in line against the Sylvari. After all the Inquest would be hero’s to Rata Sum for finding and destroying Dragon minions so close to the new Asura home.

Given the existence of Zone Green in CoE, it’s pretty clear the Inquest had some inkling of clue given it’s full of the Husks and Hounds gained from their alliance/dealings with the Nightmare Court.

A fundamental point about the sylvari is that they are a new race, spawning on Tyria for the first time roughly 30 years ago; they’ve never been seen before. How would the Exalted distinguish between the two [mordrem and sylvari] when they’re both made of plants and they first came in contact with mordrem not long before they first encountered any sylvari too.

Trying to making it short, this is my reasoning in a nutshell: the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists; Mordremoth used to be the sole ruler of said Realm, before the Dream (aided by the Pale Tree) and the Nightmare started to contrast his predominance; the creations of said Realm are spontaneous (like some demons and Razah spawned in the Realm of Torment) and come to the flesh world via these infamous Trees (literally “being born” into growing pods), natural physical one-way doorways interconnected to the Mists, but “proper” Mists portals to the Dream Realm also exist (as shown in this story step); these creations’ minds can be bent by Mordremoth (the Realm’s former ruler) or can be aided in retaining their will by the Dream or the Nightmare, benevolent entities kittenpect the will of their Realm’s creations.

On the Blighting Trees: these Trees, like the Pale Tree, do not decide themselves when to give birth to any creature through the pods; in a way, it’s the Realm that dictates that (because those creature’s very essences spawn in there), and/or its eventual ruler. Having a suitable template for the Trees to copy seems to be a fundamental step though (that’s why we see just now the sylvari, anthropomorphic creations: there was no “human template” to copy during the last dragon rise). When the Blighting Trees are provided with suitable templates, they’re able to replicate said templates.

I don’t see how these Trees can be classified as “dragon champions”, on par to Diarmid, when they aren’t even able to present themselves (because they didn’t had a chance to reach such a state; it would have been useless to Mordremoth).
Again, the Blighting Trees didn’t have a chance, like the Pale Tree, to develop a higher mind and are exploited by Mordremoth solely as “minion factories”; they are no more braindead than any other corrupted being.

On the seeds: you assume those seeds are a form of dragon corruption to begin with, and on top of that you assume they somehow got purified; the whole “purified thing” is nowhere to be found, if not in spectators’ speculations.
Unlike animal eggs, fertilized plant seeds can hibernate and remain in their embryonal stage until favourable conditions are encountered; the point is that (in my view at least) the embryo can’t be considered a living being (with its own mind), hence why Mordremoth has to wait for them to be planted before corrupting them.

On Terebinth: I’ll just say that the Revered Terebinth is still young and growing and wasn’t nurtured from its beginning like the Pale Tree was, whom, on the other hand, became the Pale Tree that we know today after roughly 225 years (when starting to give birth to separate individuals).

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] the only thing created to be dragon minions, are dragon minions.

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon.. the Mouth of Mordremoth is its physical body (and from its body, the vines grow). It is not a tree. It just lives around one

The vines are roots, and they can expand across most of continental Tyria; as roots, they come from the Tree, which is the real physical body of Mordremoth (the double helix we see spinning inside the tree is its “heart of thorns”). The Mouth of Mordremoth clearly isn’t Mordremoth itself, it is just a creature corrupted by Mordremoth, used similarly to the Mouth of Zhaitan. There would be no reason in referring to it as a “mouth” if it actually were Mordremoth’s original body itself. Also, the vines surrounding the Mouth really do not seem to come from it, as they constrain it, and it also doesn’t use those vines to attack us: the Mouth is not the origin of the vines.

—CONTINUES—

Konig Des Todes.2086

Everything has a rate of decay. Water goes foul

The issue here seems to be the use of the word “decay”: I associate this word with the rotting of organic materials. Water or air decaying makes no sense to me, if anything they get contaminated. Also metals don’t “decay” in this sense; if anything some may oxidize or erode over time.
When the Dragons imbue their magic into inorganic things, willingly or not, two things may happen: (1) the object in question just works as a container for said magic; (2) if enough magic is imbued, a mind might start to appear.

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] Zhaitan’s preference is corpses. But they living risen exist.

With his magic, Zhaitan can only control the undead; honestly, that’s just Zhaitan’s way (the Elder Undead Dragon).
Kellach was slowly imbued with Zhaitan’s magic (death and shadow). Do you think I meant that Kellach would need to fall on the ground and wait a couple of minutes to come back as an undead (like a stereotypical zombie would do)? Because that’s not what I’m saying. He was slowly brought to death, he didn’t even have time to fall dead to the ground.

Konig Des Todes.2086

for example Jormag prefers to corrupt willing converts

It looks like Jormag gets mistakenly treated by some norn, mainly by the Sons of Svanir, as a Spirit of the Wild (it isn’t); the various norn “following” the Ice Dragon hope to gain powers from it in the same way a norn draws power from the Spirit of the Bear (on a side note, the grawls are just fascinated in the powers displayed by the Claw); when presented with what Jormag really does, uncorrupted Sons of Svanir may flee (hence the example I made earlier). How (and if) Jormag “whispers” to those yet to be corrupted is unclear, but in the end we know that Jormag enslaves those corrupted like any other Dragon does; the end result is the same, anyone corrupted will fall to the Dragon’s own will.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Basically, your argument on the sylvari should extend to elementals, but as we quite literally see, is not the case.

Ice elementals can’t be compared to sylvari: they don’t come in existance like sylvari do, they aren’t “protected” by a higher entity like sylvari are. The more magic a Dragon imbues in their victims, the stronger they get (sylvari get covered in thick bark and grow in size; ice elementals get imbued with even more ice magic, overloading them, giving them that typical icebrood appearance).

Konig Des Todes.2086

but the Forgotten ritual could only revert one side of the corruption

In the end, it looks like you agree with me when implying there are two sides to this corruption (“physical” and “mental”). Let me explain again how I view this “sphere of influence” thing: an Elder Dragon is able to enslave the mind of those who fall under its “sphere” of magic, those imbued with a specific kind of magic, and only those.