Guild Wars 2

Sock.2785:

A fundamental point about the sylvari is that they are a new race, spawning on Tyria for the first time roughly 30 years ago; they’ve never been seen before. How would the Exalted distinguish between the two [mordrem and sylvari] when they’re both made of plants and they first came in contact with mordrem not long before they first encountered any sylvari too.

Trying to making it short, this is my reasoning in a nutshell: the Dream of Dreams is a Realm of the Mists; Mordremoth used to be the sole ruler of said Realm, before the Dream (aided by the Pale Tree) and the Nightmare started to contrast his predominance; the creations of said Realm are spontaneous (like some demons and Razah spawned in the Realm of Torment) and come to the flesh world via these infamous Trees (literally “being born” into growing pods), natural physical one-way doorways interconnected to the Mists, but “proper” Mists portals to the Dream Realm also exist (as shown in this story step); these creations’ minds can be bent by Mordremoth (the Realm’s former ruler) or can be aided in retaining their will by the Dream or the Nightmare, benevolent entities kittenpect the will of their Realm’s creations.

On the Blighting Trees: these Trees, like the Pale Tree, do not decide themselves when to give birth to any creature through the pods; in a way, it’s the Realm that dictates that (because those creature’s very essences spawn in there), and/or its eventual ruler. Having a suitable template for the Trees to copy seems to be a fundamental step though (that’s why we see just now the sylvari, anthropomorphic creations: there was no “human template” to copy during the last dragon rise). When the Blighting Trees are provided with suitable templates, they’re able to replicate said templates.

I don’t see how these Trees can be classified as “dragon champions”, on par to Diarmid, when they aren’t even able to present themselves (because they didn’t had a chance to reach such a state; it would have been useless to Mordremoth).
Again, the Blighting Trees didn’t have a chance, like the Pale Tree, to develop a higher mind and are exploited by Mordremoth solely as “minion factories”; they are no more braindead than any other corrupted being.

On the seeds: you assume those seeds are a form of dragon corruption to begin with, and on top of that you assume they somehow got purified; the whole “purified thing” is nowhere to be found, if not in spectators’ speculations.
Unlike animal eggs, fertilized plant seeds can hibernate and remain in their embryonal stage until favourable conditions are encountered; the point is that (in my view at least) the embryo can’t be considered a living being (with its own mind), hence why Mordremoth has to wait for them to be planted before corrupting them.

On Terebinth: I’ll just say that the Revered Terebinth is still young and growing and wasn’t nurtured from its beginning like the Pale Tree was, whom, on the other hand, became the Pale Tree that we know today after roughly 225 years (when starting to give birth to separate individuals).

Konig Des Todes.2086

[…] the only thing created to be dragon minions, are dragon minions.

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon.. the Mouth of Mordremoth is its physical body (and from its body, the vines grow). It is not a tree. It just lives around one

The vines are roots, and they can expand across most of continental Tyria; as roots, they come from the Tree, which is the real physical body of Mordremoth (the double helix we see spinning inside the tree is its “heart of thorns”). The Mouth of Mordremoth clearly isn’t Mordremoth itself, it is just a creature corrupted by Mordremoth, used similarly to the Mouth of Zhaitan. There would be no reason in referring to it as a “mouth” if it actually were Mordremoth’s original body itself. Also, the vines surrounding the Mouth really do not seem to come from it, as they constrain it, and it also doesn’t use those vines to attack us: the Mouth is not the origin of the vines.

—CONTINUES—

Uhmm….. Destroyers are created not corrupted………..

Sock.2785

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Uhmm….. Destroyers are created not corrupted………..

I addressed this in another thread: when created from the lava, destroyers seems to be either elementals or constructs, hence they should have a mind associated to them, or a mind of their own (as weak as it would be); again, they’d be “created to be dragon minions”.

EDIT: I edited this sentence: “hence they should have a mind associated to them”, I forgot a word.

Sock.2785:

Sock.2785

“Created to be a dragon minion” doesn’t imply they came from Mordremoth, but that they got corrupted by Mordremoth. Dragon minions always need to be corrupted first; nothing is in its origin a dragon minion, it must be corrupted first.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Uhmm….. Destroyers are created not corrupted………..

I addressed this in another thread: when created from the lava, destroyers seems to be either elementals or constructs, hence they should have associated to them, or a mind of their own (as weak as it would be); again, they’d be “created to be dragon minions”.

Again you are going against things stated in game and by Devs.

Dragon Minions can be created and Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. The term created refers to origin otherwise they would have used a different word or phrase as to why Mordremoth went after them you can’t dispute the Dev saying they were Created to be Dragon Minions, just like you can’t dispute the definition of created….

BlaqueFyre.5678

Again you are going against things stated in game and by Devs.
Dragon Minions can be created and Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. The term created refers to origin otherwise they would have used a different word or phrase as to why Mordremoth went after them you can’t dispute the Dev saying they were Created to be Dragon Minions, just like you can’t dispute the definition of created….

I’m analyzing the whole sentence: “created to be dragon minions”. Like I said in another thread, elementalists summoning elementals can be considered a form of corruption: in this way, elementals are created (or animated) to be servants, but they have a mind of their own nonetheless; they are separate entities to begin with. This would be equal, on a much larger scale, to how Primordus animate those specific destroyers from lava.

When regarding Mordremoth, it’s not clear if sylvari come directly from him: sylvari spawn from those Trees afterall and it’s also unclear if the seeds, the origin of said Trees, come from Mordremoth.

Sock.2785:

BlaqueFyre.5678

Again you are going against things stated in game and by Devs.
Dragon Minions can be created and Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. The term created refers to origin otherwise they would have used a different word or phrase as to why Mordremoth went after them you can’t dispute the Dev saying they were Created to be Dragon Minions, just like you can’t dispute the definition of created….

I’m analyzing the whole sentence: “created to be dragon minions”. Like I said in another thread, elementalists summoning elementals can be considered a form of corruption: in this way, elementals are created (or animated) to be servants, but they have a mind of their own nonetheless; they are separate entities to begin with. This would be equal, on a much larger scale, to how Primordus animate those specific destroyers from lava.

When regarding Mordremoth, it’s not clear if sylvari come directly from him: sylvari spawn from those Trees afterall and it’s also unclear if the seeds, the origin of said Trees, come from Mordremoth.

Again created to be Dragon Minions means their origin was to be Dragon Minions since they were not just corrupted to be Dragon but Created as in their whole existence was to be a Dragon Minion, this would mean Mordremoth brought the Sylvari into existence otherwise they would have just been Corrupted into Dragon Minions. You are just stuck on your own opinion/bias trying to refute what in game lore and what Devs have stated.

BlaqueFyre.5678

Again created to be Dragon Minions means their origin was to be Dragon Minions since they were not just corrupted to be Dragon but Created as in their whole existence was to be a Dragon Minion, this would mean Mordremoth brought the Sylvari into existence otherwise they would have just been Corrupted into Dragon Minions. You are just stuck on your own opinion/bias trying to refute what in game lore and what Devs have stated.

Ultimately, that’s your opinion.
With the entirity of this thread I’m trying to stress the fact that we don’t really have clear answers, hence my approach is as viable as any other.

We do know solely from a. Dev stating Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. You can’t refute the meaning of Created

BlaqueFyre.5678

We do know solely from a. Dev stating Sylvari were created to be Dragon Minions. You can’t refute the meaning of Created

…I already stated, in responding to you to, that I was resolving the whole sentence: “created to be dragon minions”, and I was stressing that it’s not specified how they were created; we don’t know the creation process… or do we? Sylvari spawn in the Dream (the Dream isn’t Mordremoth) and are born in the flesh world (Tyria) through the Trees. Again, if anything we don’t know how those seeds came to be, and being that we don’t know, it’s anyone’s guess as of now.

Again Wynne herself states: “we were meant to serve it”.
Sylvari aren’t dragon corruption, mordrem are.

How do you even know The Mordrem Guard are Corrupted? Sylvari go physiological changes under a psychological Stressors as shown quite a few times in game, Mordremoth calling to them and influencing their thoughts is a psychological stressor which would account for the change in appearance and not a corruption.

BlaqueFyre.5678

How do you even know The Mordrem Guard are Corrupted? Sylvari go physiological changes under a psychological Stressors as shown quite a few times in game, Mordremoth calling to them and influencing their thoughts is a psychological stressor which would account for the change in appearance and not a corruption.

Such a heavy change in appearance, thick bark and size growth, is nowhere else to be seen, and it isn’t dictated by the sylvari (willingly or not) but it’s Mordremoth corruption. Mordrem guards are completely subjugated to Mordremoth and totally act like dragon minions (with mordrem however I was referring to any kind of mordrem).

We’re starting to repeat stuff that was already addressed earlier in this thread.

This entire thread is rather pointless.

ArenaNet themselves have stated that sylvari are dragon minions – not just “to be” dragon minions, but are dragon minions.

I even quoted one of the more easily found situations of them.

If you weren’t here for all the HoT promotions where ArenaNet made this explicitly clear, that’s on you. But you’re just trying to say that “canon lore is not canon” in the end.

I made quite a few points actually, if you chose not to consider them as such it’s up to you.

In the the most recent episode of the living world (EP3) Caithe states, paraphrasing: “Mordremoth is their true creator”; however this should be interpreted, would this imply that no new sylvari can be born after Mordremoth’s departure? I doubt that’s the case. If Mordremoth is dead, and new sylvari are being born, was it truly their creator?
Sylvari are not dragon minions, if anything they were created to be dragon minions (that’s what the quote says); Mordrem are dragon minions.

Sylvari don’t come from Mordremoth; how sylvari come to existance has nothing to do with Mordremoth (while how Mordrem come to be has to do with Mordremoth). The Trees’ seeds may come from Mordremoth, but I doubt that’s also the case.

Risen: any material that once life is lego for zhaitan to play with. After resurrection, zhaitan can even invoke the spirit of the body.

Branded: any creature can be branded, including anorganic creatures.

Destroyers: the only known dragon minion that exists without any form of corruption. Destroyers kill and destroy, and bring back memories of ‘effective shapes’ which are used to make new destroyers.

Icebrood: mostly like destroyers, but also include corrupted forms.

Mordrem: Any creature that is born from the ilk of Mordremoth and has their mind connected to Mordremoth. There are two types of mordrem, born of his ilk, and corrupted by his ilk. Born from his ilk are the average Mordrem AND Sylvari, as sylvari are just a reskin of normal mordrem. Corrupted ilk are all plantoid matter that mordremoth corrupted.

DSD: No minions have been shown yet, but they’ve been described that chaotic shadows of tangent tendrils.. so.. tentacly and shadowy.. reminds me of a certain daedric lord

Amaimon.7823

Mordrem: Any creature that is born from the ilk of Mordremoth and has their mind connected to Mordremoth. There are two types of mordrem, born of his ilk, and corrupted by his ilk. Born from his ilk are the average Mordrem AND Sylvari, as sylvari are just a reskin of normal mordrem. Corrupted ilk are all plantoid matter that mordremoth corrupted.

I’ll assume those descriptions of dragon minions are of your own, since you didn’t link any source nor have alluded to any.
I’ll just focus on the sylvari, giving you a question: why do we see sylvari still spawning after Mordremoth’s demise then? The only answer is that they never came from Mordremoth to begin with; they were exploited by Mordremoth (together with the Trees), whose intent was to corrupt them.

And if anything it’s the Mordrem (guard) that are a reskin of sylvari, since it’s the sylvari that get covered in thick bark and grow in size, and never the other way around, so it’s quite the opposite.
Sylvari are not dragon corruption (nor dragon minions), Mordrem are.

In addition, both Mordremoth and sylvari are linked to the Dream (and Mordremoth is not the Dream): that’s where to find their mental link, and how Mordremoth was able to communicate with them priorly to corrupting them.

P.S. What do you exactly mean with “ilk”? Could you use a word other than that, to let me better understand your view?

Sock.2785:

Amaimon.7823

Mordrem: Any creature that is born from the ilk of Mordremoth and has their mind connected to Mordremoth. There are two types of mordrem, born of his ilk, and corrupted by his ilk. Born from his ilk are the average Mordrem AND Sylvari, as sylvari are just a reskin of normal mordrem. Corrupted ilk are all plantoid matter that mordremoth corrupted.

I’ll assume those descriptions of dragon minions are of your own, since you didn’t link any source nor have alluded to any.
I’ll just focus on the sylvari, giving you a question: why do we see sylvari still spawning after Mordremoth’s demise then? The only answer is that they never came from Mordremoth to begin with; they were exploited by Mordremoth (together with the Trees), whose intent was to corrupt them.

And if anything it’s the Mordrem (guard) that are a reskin of sylvari, since it’s the sylvari that get covered in thick bark and grow in size, and never the other way around, so it’s quite the opposite.
Sylvari are not dragon corruption (nor dragon minions), Mordrem are.

In addition, both Mordremoth and sylvari are linked to the Dream (and Mordremoth is not the Dream): that’s where to find their mental link, and how Mordremoth was able to communicate with them priorly to corrupting them.

P.S. What do you exactly mean with “ilk”? Could you use a word other than that, to let me better understand your view?

So, your new theory is: because mordremoth is dead, no new mordrem can spawn.
This is a fallacy right from the start. Some champions and high ranked dragon minions can procreate. Just because they stopped receiving orders from their ‘god’ doesnt mean they stopped doing whatever they were doing before. All risen and all mordrem are currently continuing on their last given orders until killed.
And we know they came from mordremoth, because we know that a human and a centaur took an egg from a cave guarded by mordrem. The only reason they look different from all mordrem is because their spawnage was guided by other hands than those of mordremoth.

The mordrem you see are the ‘normal’ form and the sylvari are a mutation on that form. The mordrem guard is a rebukkal attempt at restoring the original form.

I concede the dream is a strange thing. But as far as I understood it, the dream is simply a ‘memory’ shared among sylvari, stored in the pale tree. It was propably a mechanic to give mordrem commands and purposes or intellect prior to ‘birth’.
Since the pale tree was forcefully disconnected from mordremoth’s mind, the pale tree could use the dream for her own purposes. Not even the Pale Mother can control the dream, she can only share its contents meaning the dream has a ‘higher source’.

(ps: by ilk I mean any creature that shares blood with mordremoth. So mordremoth’s ilk are the champions and the blighted trees. And the mordrem are the ilk of the blighted trees. hence the sylvari are ilk of mordremoth, in the sense that mordremoth is their grandfather)

And it’s kind of hard to cite a source when the source is all the dialogue and the three books I’ve read. I’d have to sift through a pile of wikipedia pages and reread the books to cite the exact pages. its just stuff I remember from reading all the dialogue and reading the books.

@Amaimon Never said Mordrem couldn’t keep spawning somehow, that was your own conclusion since you view sylvari as Mordrem, not me. But honestly, while we know Mordrem and Risen kept roaming around after their respective master died, we really don’t know if they can keep spawning as such, and I think that if new minions would spawn they’d respond to a new entity. Also, last time I checked we killed every major Mordremoth’s champion.

Again, Mordrem guard are corrupted sylvari, it’s pretty obvious when you think about it: sylvari turning is the only known case of Mordrem guards.

Mordrem guarding those seeds does not imply that they (both the seeds and sylvari) come from Mordremoth (whatever that would mean).

The Dream (but also the Nightmare) appears to behave as an higher entity, comparable to Mordremoth in a way. In my view the Dream of Dreams is a realm of the Mists, the Dream and the Nightmare are entities trying to rule over said realm, like Mordremoth also was and/or tried to (if you’re interested, here is a link to a thread I made regarding exactly this).

Sock.2785:

@Amaimon Never said Mordrem couldn’t keep spawning somehow, that was your own conclusion since you view sylvari as Mordrem, not me. But honestly, while we know Mordrem and Risen kept roaming around after their respective master died, we really don’t know if they can keep spawning as such, and I think that if new minions would spawn they’d respond to a new entity. Also, last time I checked we killed every major Mordremoth’s champion.

Again, Mordrem guard are corrupted sylvari, it’s pretty obvious when you think about it: sylvari turning is the only known case of Mordrem guards.

Mordrem guarding those seeds does not imply that they (both the seeds and sylvari) come from Mordremoth (whatever that would mean).

The Dream (but also the Nightmare) appears to behave as an higher entity, comparable to Mordremoth in a way. In my view the Dream of Dreams is a realm of the Mists, the Dream and the Nightmare are entities trying to rule over said realm, like Mordremoth also was and/or tried to (if you’re interested, here is a link to a thread I made regarding exactly this).

Well, what is your evidence then, that sylvari are not mordrem? and as I said, the mordrem guard are indeed sylvari turnt, but its more a matter of ‘restoring’ rather than ‘corrupting’, since from a starting point of view, sylvari is the corrupted form.

The thing is that there’s no proof of the opposite either, other than the belief that Mordremoth is the sylvari’s true creator (whatever this vague statement means); this is one of the main points I was trying to stress all along.

Anyway, I can think about a couple of proofs:

• Sylvari need to eat and drink properly, while dragon minions do not: they get sustain from magic (or at least the most powerful minions do).

• Sylvari first spawned on Tyria roughly 25 years ago, there’s no mention of them earlier in history. In addition, their creation can be linked if anything to the Trees.

A common proof (or should I say justification) of the opposite would be that all the seeds were purified from dragon corruption priorly to Ronan taking one: that’s nowhere to be found in lore.

I am curious where it was stated that the Seed that formed the Pale Tree was guarded by Mordrem. According to my memory, it was only stated that there were guardians, with no descriptors whatsoever. For all we know they could have been Forgotten enchanted weapons or armor. This is why, in my opinion, it seems most likely that they were seeds of lighting trees that were cleansed by forgotten, but my thoughts are just as speculative as any other.

Narcemus.1348:

I am curious where it was stated that the Seed that formed the Pale Tree was guarded by Mordrem. According to my memory, it was only stated that there were guardians, with no descriptors whatsoever. For all we know they could have been Forgotten enchanted weapons or armor. This is why, in my opinion, it seems most likely that they were seeds of lighting trees that were cleansed by forgotten, but my thoughts are just as speculative as any other.

They were stated to be powerful or monstrous plant creatures iirc.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Narcemus.1348:

I am curious where it was stated that the Seed that formed the Pale Tree was guarded by Mordrem. According to my memory, it was only stated that there were guardians, with no descriptors whatsoever. For all we know they could have been Forgotten enchanted weapons or armor. This is why, in my opinion, it seems most likely that they were seeds of lighting trees that were cleansed by forgotten, but my thoughts are just as speculative as any other.

They were stated to be powerful or monstrous plant creatures iirc.

Thats right. Mordremoth and mordrem werent a thing at that time yet. So they wre just ‘plantmonsters’

I didn’t recall “plant” being a descriptor originally, but I don’t have a source to prove me right, and the wiki says plant so I’ll just leave it for now.

Original depiction we were told:

This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Sylvari

Not “monsters”. Just “terrible plant creatures”. Whether “terrible” refers to personality or appearance is, obviously, unknown.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Original depiction we were told:

This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Sylvari

Not “monsters”. Just “terrible plant creatures”. Whether “terrible” refers to personality or appearance is, obviously, unknown.

Oakhearts and bramblethorns, as well as.. jurandis.. floating seeds.. and ibogas were common plants throughout the world. For a man who has seen some of the world to refer to a plant creature as terrible must mean they’re extraspecial or more terrifying. Dragon minion is a likely subject in this case.

Amaimon.7823:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The Sylvari are stated to be of Mordremoth and what enforces that even more is the fact that the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from corruption from the other dragons sans Mordremoth

I slightly disagree. The pale tree protected the sylvari from Mordremoth’s Call.
But she can’t protect them from the other elder dragons, but also doesn’t need to, because dragon minions are innately immune to each other. Zhaitan couldn’t ‘revive’ the sylvan because they weren’t his to claim.

Didn’t that get thrown out the window when living Elder Dragons started absorbing other forms of dragon corruption? Come to think about it shouldn’t New Sylvari be death touched since you would assume that the Mother Tree being the only living Champion of Mordremoth would start absorbing not just Mordremoth magic but also Zaitan magic; she’s unconscious so it’s not like she would be able to regulate it?

Didn’t that get thrown out the window when living Elder Dragons started absorbing other forms of dragon corruption?

No, what Primordus and Jormag absorbed was the core of the domain and all it’s magic. It gives control over that element, and lets you imbue your own minions with it. Control over said element: Death, and Plant. (weird that was plant and not mind control).
In any case: The elder dragon’s that absorb a domain, don’t get control over the minions of that elder dragon. maybe if Mordrem or Risen walk into Frostbrood or Destroyer territory the others can easily suck out the magic in them, but I don’t know about that. Elder dragons still don’t have any say over other elder dragons’ minions. Don’t forget: Primordus isn’t making Risen or Mordrem minions. He’s making Destroyers which have a dread attunement, or a vine attunement. They’re still destroyers

Come to think about it shouldn’t New Sylvari be death touched since you would assume that the Mother Tree being the only living Champion of Mordremoth would start absorbing not just Mordremoth magic but also Zaitan magic; she’s unconscious so it’s not like she would be able to regulate it?

Primordus sucked up most of Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s magic, leaving a little for Jormag to sink his one-tooth-missing-fangs in. The pale tree was very disconnected from mordremoth to the point that mordremoth couldn’t influence her at all. Not directly at least. I doubt any, if enough, magic got past Primordus and returned to her. I think at best she could’ve gotten some of Mordremoth’s magic back, but that would only make the sylvari.. more.. plantoid..
but theoretically speaking, yes, IF any death magic got past to the Pale Tree it should be possible for a new generation of death touched sylvari to spawn.