Guild Wars 2

Update

Perhaps anyway…

Hello, new to the Guild Wars 2 universe [snip]

Upon further study and reflection, I have changed my original views on how and why an argument could be made that the Sylvari are the greatest race in all known Tyria. This opinion is very subjective, and many unknown questions are still unanswered. More than any other race in-fact.

It is my understanding that the Sylvari development process is as follows;

(Stage 1) The Dream – The biggest unknown, who, how, or more importantly what is learned here is a big unknown, it is described as a
“lake” and you take a “bucket” from that lake. How big is the bucket?
Are they all the same? Can others learn more or less? Are still unknown… even more important then that is the long term effects and the connection, how strong or weak, whats its purpose, and how much control can one exploit from that link is still up for debate. Memories can be wiped, and replaced with the few interactions I have posted here. Even a sort of makeshift “mental firewall” is in place as pointed out to me shielding fellow Silvari.

(Stage 2) Pale Tree – It is described as the Pale Tree teaching the necessities to its young sometime during the dream but not before they wake up. During this stage, she instills “water is wet”, “fire is hot”,
and what is described as basic living needs. Beyond this, in this stage,
she passes on the teachings of the Tablet. This is why the main character almost word for word embodies the tablets teachings before even waking up. It is during this stage the Nightmare Court believe they are polluting the “well” and the Pale Tree is deviating from its true nature.
The game often uses the word “make” very often in fact. Regardless of the very long post by another member explaining they can’t choose what goes into the well, I found this to be incorrect. But not in the general sense. They are choosing to put pain and suffering tainting the well and have a lasting and prolonged impact on a Silvari’s development.

Never to be confused with free will, it is shown a few times that a
Silvari with enough free will can overcome all. Though I don’t know how much free will you can have when your memories are wiped clean…
The Soundless choose not to hear the Pale Tree for the very reason that this connection can and is being exploited. Though it’s unclear if their connection is totally cut off, or even if that is possible.
(Stage 3) After the first two dramatic stages with many unknown factors, we have the Silvari emerge, still with unknown intent, and an unknown bond to the Dream. It’s very clear that there is a bond, but it’s purpose, effects, and really anything are unknown.
~~
All in all the Dream can impart important memories to the Sylvari, they have a very old and wise teacher that has access to near unlimited experiences herself. They use this to advance their culture at a very breakneck pace. Whether they plateau or not remains to be seen. With just over two decades of history the Sylvari strides remain impressive.

A sylvari doesn’t learn everything within the Dream let alone everything that sylvari learned that went to the Dream, nor does everything a sylvari knows go to the Dream but only the most emotional events do.

A comparison made by devs and by some sylvari in-game is that the knowledge in the Dream is akin to a well, while a sylvari’s knowledge when born is like a bucket pulled from that well.

They similarly don’t have a hive mind (for reasons that are a spoiler to the Heart of Thorns story later on). A sylvari is only tentatively connected to the Dream after awakening, and does not learn any more from it – the most they get is Wyld Hunts which is described as a “constant itch” that doesn’t go away until a certain deed is done or failed to be done (said deeds, the Wyld Hunt itself, being shown via a vision by all accounts).

That kind of flies in the face of telling the Great Tree anything. It’s fairly obvious that the tree only imprints what it thinks is important on the saplings. While not an “instant” hive mind, it’s still able to disseminate knowledge to the masses at once.

There are semi-obvious things that are forced on a sapling and not pulled from a well. Such as walking, talking, and combat traits. Plus the compulsions to explore and learn.

The compulsion to complete a task works even better than a hive mind in some regards. The tree could just assume set any goal this way.

EDIT: With Malomedies he was able to bring Mathematics to “all” of his people. That furthers my knowledge argument.

But her own words the Pale Tree does not control the Dream, but is merely its caretaker. She doesn’t choose what each sylvari takes from the Dream. This also applies to the Wyld hunts as well.

A sylvari may emerge from the tree with a basic understanding of fire magic, but they must learn to master it themselves. This example, or for other classes IMO means they basically skip some of the trial and error/early tiers of knowledge that most other races would learn during childhood school years.

But her own words the Pale Tree does not control the Dream
I believe this to be correct, but can still be taken as a mass learning tool. The Dream is like a playground sandbox, where saplings are allowed to play with any “toy” within that realm. In this case, the “toys” are bits of others shared knowledge.

But regardless of how the journey is perceived, the end result is the same. they learn things that they never experienced themselves. and they feel compelled to complete goals they never set out themselves to accomplished. So there is obviously some degree of control over its saplings. This is almost the pure definition of a hive mind, being able to sense ones death.

Another key piece of direct evidence of a “hive” mind is the first death of the first born. It was described as "Riannoc’s death was discovered, it was felt deeply by the sylvari, described by Caithe as being “like a part of the Dream was torn away”. The Pale Tree says it was as though “the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.”

My interpretation, by this statement all Silvari (unborn) ARE exposed to memories and feelings of living Silvari.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

But her own words the Pale Tree does not control the Dream
I believe this to be correct, but can still be taken as a mass learning tool. The Dream is like a playground sandbox, where saplings are allowed to play with any “toy” within that realm. In this case, the “toys” are bits of others shared knowledge.

And? My only point was that the Pale Tree isn’t the one controlling this like some Borg Queen, not that the Dream doesn’t give some basic knowledge like speech and “Fire is hot” and “water is wet” etc. Its also important to note that no two sylvari get the same share of the “Well” (to use Konig’s analogy) and to reiterate his statement, not everything a sylvari learns returns to the Dream, typically only the ones connect to strong emotion.

That’s the important point to the Dream and the Sylvaris’ connection to it and each other, emotion. The Sylvari maintain an empathic connection to the Dream and a rather tenuous one by all observation, as some of their kind are able to sever themselves from it (The Soundless).

Its also important to note that not all Sylvari have a wyld hunt, actually only a comparatively few of them do (though the number of newly awakened with one is increasing) so most sylvari don’t have a “compulsion” to do anything outside their own individual desires.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

That kind of flies in the face of telling the Great Tree anything. It’s fairly obvious that the tree only imprints what it thinks is important on the saplings.

Not really, and it’s a proven fact that the Pale Tree does not control the Dream nor everything sylvari learns – this is explained in the personal story as a sylvari, and redoubled later on for all races.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

There are semi-obvious things that are forced on a sapling and not pulled from a well. Such as walking, talking, and combat traits. Plus the compulsions to explore and learn.

Who says those are not pulled from the well? There are sylvari who don’t know how to fight, after all. And many sylvari who feel content to remain in the Grove – in fact, most sylvari do not fight and remain in the Grove.

We see that there are sylvari who tend to newly awakened. Who’s to say that every awakened knows how to walk and talk right away? Ours did, but that doesn’t mean every single one does.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

EDIT: With Malomedies he was able to bring Mathematics to “all” of his people. That furthers my knowledge argument.

This isn’t a literal “I studied mathematics so now every sylvari knows it through the Dream” but basically him saying “I learned mathematics and began teaching other sylvari, who taught other sylvari, who taught other sylvari.”

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Another key piece of direct evidence of a “hive” mind is the first death of the first born. It was described as "Riannoc’s death was discovered, it was felt deeply by the sylvari, described by Caithe as being “like a part of the Dream was torn away”. The Pale Tree says it was as though “the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.”

That’s less a mind and more a… heart? The Dream sent an emotion through it to the awakened sylvari. Even then, some sylvari have a strong tie to the Dream, others barely hear it – either by desire (like the Soundless), unintended events (like the Nightmare Court/Scarlet Briar), or by innate talent (like Amaranda the Lonesome). There are sylvari out there who feel nothing from the Dream, even without hardening themselves to it.

That’s not a hive mind.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

My interpretation, by this statement all Silvari (unborn) ARE exposed to memories and feelings of living Silvari.

And what we are saying is that your interpretation was outright debunked.

Five years ago, even six when the sylvari first got their reveal, your interpretation was the common one. Then ArenaNet developers came and corrected us, and we got in-game when it was released and we got further corrections.

Your tone of your messages seem very hostile and “matter of fact” disposition to them. If this is the case there is no point in having a lore based forum, the point of a forum is to promote discussion on the topic to challenge each other’s understanding and interpretation to discover the truth.

That said hypothetically if the developers said the race couldn’t swim but are shown swimming cannon is challenged.

We cannot speculate on what is never shown or hinted at. But even this has an explanation. So a sprout being born with none of these traits could very well happen but would not affect my argument.

For what it’s worth I agree with the well. I also agree there is no “force” as you think of it used and your interpretation of it.

I’m saying they feel compelled, enough sprouts to achieve the tree’s goals. This is explained in the very intro “The Tree fills me with knowledge, it guilds me, it shows me my true purpose” – or something to that effect. Actually, the first few lines of the intro are more than enough to prove my point. “The Tree fills me with knowledge” one has to ask what knowledge? not that really matters that into itself points to a hive mind, and from that very statement it sounds not optional.

Hive Heart? Hive Emotions? Hive Mind? – The bottom line is they each felt and knew when one of their own died. What you are arguing is semantics. They all knew something happened, that none of them took part in, and felt it as if they were there themselves. The -only- equivalent I can draw (though not perfect) is a hive mind. Even going as far as to say a part of the dream was missing.

I believe people initial interpretation was correct, I also agree with your two interpretation of an optional well. In this case, there is actually room for both to fit in. Some could, some couldn’t. Some ignore the Tree pull, most embrace it. There is more than one way to force someone to do something. I can think of no better way then to imprint it on their very nature. Make them think it’s their own will to go out and achieve the Pale Tree wishes. You guys seem to take a few rogue elements, and ideas to bolster your perception of them. We do know the tree has very little control (but does exert some) over what the saplings can learn from the “well” of knowledge they have access to. But what if that well -doesn’t- have that many variating ideas/ideals? To put it in base terms what if I handed you a deck of cards I gave you a choice to pick any one you want, I had no control on what you pick (or so you think) turns out I handed you a deck that consisted of three or four variations of the same cards…? It’s the illusion of choice.

The end result is the same, be it your understanding of it, or mine. They gained something they themselves did not learn, they are the fastest growing civilization by far, and they (to at least some extent) send knowledge to be collected and disseminated to the newer saplings. To finish off the ability to sense death and emotion within their own civilization at the very least. I’m not impressed with this ability into itself, I’m more blown away by the fact that they knew just who died. Feeling death is one thing, feeling specifically who died points strongly to a hive mind doubled by the fact that all feel danger is coming and all feel like they need to stop it.

Edit: A very similar portrayal is seven of nines character. Though disconnected she felt a very strong urge to continue to strive for perfection. This permeated her entire existence, despite being disconnected from the borg. While Icheb chose not to, though admitting the urge for perfection was strong. He was able to resist.

It’s not the perfect contrast but there are remarkable similarities.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Your tone of your messages seem very hostile and “matter of fact” disposition to them.

Not for nothing, but it’s hard not to sound matter of fact when it -is- fact at this point. There are things that are open to interpretation still, but some of the things that you’re talking about have long since been proven one way or the other and Konig is pointing those out.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

-snip-

And I find your own tone to be equally so, particularly in light of how you are lecturing people who have been immersed in the lore of gw1 and gw2 for over a decade (and I’m not referring to myself so much) while you yourself have only just gotten into the game recently by your own admission. The Lore forum is around for us to learn, question, theorize, discuss, and when necessary, debunk. There is still a lot we don’t fully understand about the GW universe (especially taking Anet’s writing style into consideration) but some things have been laid to rest to the best of our ability, with the basics of the Dream being one of them.

Again I state to you, by both the Pale Tree’s and Arenanet’s words, the Tree has ZERO control of the Dream OR the Sylvari themselves (as a group or individually). She is not the Borg Queen, she couldn’t prevent the formation of the Nightmare Court, she couldn’t stop the Soundless from separating from both the Ventari Sylvari and the Nightmare Court, she couldn’t even stop a single sylvari engineer from going to far.

She can’t make a sylvari do kitten if said sylvari doesn’t want to.

Are you saying that both the Tree and Arenanet are lying to the player base? Cause you’re going to need some motherkittening proof is you are.

Riannoc’s death is of note for several reasons, the primary one being that he was the very first of his race to die and as such had a great deal of impact on an empathic people. He was also a Firstborn, and as such had a different connection and relationship to both the Pale Tree and the Dream than the rest of his people. The Firstborn are unique in more ways than simply being the first, they’ve show insight and abilities (such as Caithe’s ability to temporarily re-enter the Dream, with the Tree’s help) so the his death would have been all the more impactful. Next, Riannoc’s death took place in either 1303 or 1304 ae and the first of the second born didn’t awaken until sometime in 1304 ae, so there is a strong possibility that at his death there were only the Tree and the other eleven Firstborn around to ‘feel’ it. Finally its important to note that not even the Tree knew the full circumstances of Riannoc’s death, much less any of the other sylvari. They did not “feel” it as if it happened to themselves, as impactful as it was it was also vague in comparison to what you’ve been implying.

While the Pale Tree may still feel the many deaths of the sylvari, the rest of them have not been shown to.

In regards to the concept of a Hive Mind I’ll quote a certain giant: I don’t think that word means what you think it means. While it may be ‘semantics’ to you, to many of us its important distinctions with the lack of certain attributes, such as the near or complete absence of individualism and free will, mean that the Dream isn’t a hive mind as the term is commonly described.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

-snip-

And I find your own tone to be equally so, particularly in light of how you are lecturing people who have been immersed in the lore of gw1 and gw2 for over a decade

I don’t know how that is possible but I apologize if I mean to question the masses brings offense. You also presuppose that simply being around is the end all. Your statement, this statement not only implies but directly calls out any who haven’t been around as people that are lesser and that could not possibly understand more than a member who has. You also make the time honored tradition of someone who is not used to being questioned by frequently stating you speak for “everyone.”

<Again I state to you, by both the Pale Tree’s and Arenanet’s words, the Tree has ZERO control of the Dream OR the Sylvari themselves>
The former I agree with, for the most part, Sylvari are more “cookie cutter” personalities. We would see more variation, and like I said this is contradicted within the first few minutes of the intro.

<She can’t make a sylvari do kitten if said sylvari doesn’t want to.>
While very true that was not my point at all, proof that you are not only not reading my posts, or understanding them. This is something I agree with. Some resist, most don’t.

<Are you saying that both the Tree and Arenanet are lying to the player base? Cause you’re going to need some motherkittening proof is you are.>
I’m saying your understanding of their statements is incorrect.

<Riannoc’s death is of note for several reasons, the primary one being that he was the very first of his race to die and as such had a great>
I’d say replay and reread the events. She quite clearly said it affected “all” Silvari. Regardless of the reason behind this ability, the ability still happened and exists.

<While the Pale Tree may still feel the many deaths of the sylvari, the rest of them have not been shown to.>
Aside from her saying it did, no. The Pale Tree by your own admission experiences something akin to a hive mind.

<Near or complete absence of individualism and free will, mean that the Dream isn’t a hive mind as the term is commonly described.>
As stated many times now it’s the closest known comparison, not meant to be directly compared to. While the Silvari certainly expresses individualism, out of all the races they are less so.

If you could do me a small favor and exit the conversation, no offense. But you clearly stopped reading my posts and are determined to enforce your understandings on me. You are the type that needs to be told the sky is blue before believing it, and you are the type to not question something even if you see the opposite to be true…

Aden Yeshua.2148:

If you could do me a small favor and exit the conversation, no offense. But you clearly stopped reading my posts and are determined to enforce your understandings on me. You are the type that needs to be told the sky is blue before believing it, and you are the type to not question something even if you see the opposite to be true…

No, and kitten your presumptions about my personal perception or my comprehension. Twice you’ve accused those of us that are disagreeing with you of arrogance in our arguments, and then you go and then have to gall to tell me to stop posting here. Seriously who do you think you are?

Aden Yeshua.2148:

<She can’t make a sylvari do kitten if said sylvari doesn’t want to.>
While very true that was not my point at all, proof that you are not only not reading my posts, or understanding them. This is something I agree with. Some resist, most don’t.

There. Is. Nothing. To. Resist. From. The. Tree.
She cannot control the Dream, she cannot directly control the sylvari, She does not even try. There is a difference between mind control and just doing something because your mother asked you to. Now tell me again about my lack of reading comprehension.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

<Riannoc’s death is of note for several reasons, the primary one being that he was the very first of his race to die and as such had a great>
I’d say replay and reread the events. She quite clearly said it affected “all” Silvari. Regardless of the reason behind this ability, the ability still happened and exists.

<While the Pale Tree may still feel the many deaths of the sylvari, the rest of them have not been shown to.>
Aside from her saying it did, no. The Pale Tree by your own admission experiences something akin to a hive mind.

What the Pale Tree experiences isn’t the argument here, she is the progenitor of the sylvari, not a sylvari herself (in spite of the appearance of her avatar). And as I stated, Riannoc was a unique case that cannot be attributed to all the other sylvari deaths that have happened since.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

<Are you saying that both the Tree and Arenanet are lying to the player base? Cause you’re going to need some motherkittening proof is you are.>
I’m saying your understanding of their statements is incorrect.

Really now. The cinematics at the end of the first chapter for sylvari PCs all include this line: “No, dear heart. I do not control the Dream. I am simply its caretaker.” How more clear and concise can you possibly get?

Aden Yeshua.2148:

<Near or complete absence of individualism and free will, mean that the Dream isn’t a hive mind as the term is commonly described.>
As stated many times now it’s the closest known comparison, not meant to be directly compared to. While the Silvari certainly expresses individualism, out of all the races they are less so.

Again, no, they’ve been shown IN GAME to be just as individualistic as any of the other races (I’d argue that of the five player races its the Charr that have the least level of individualism, but due to culture instead of biology, but that’s an argument for another time). The ONLY caveat to that is a spoiler that I won’t post out a sliver of respect for your enjoyment of the story, but I will say that in the end it still doesn’t equal a Hive Mind.

Kindly learn to NOT make assumptions about peoples character and general behavior from only a handful of sentences.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

If you could do me a small favor and exit the conversation, no offense. But you clearly stopped reading my posts and are determined to enforce your understandings on me. You are the type that needs to be told the sky is blue before believing it, and you are the type to not question something even if you see the opposite to be true…

No, and kitten your presumptions about my personal perception or my comprehension. Twice you’ve accused those of us that are disagreeing with you of arrogance in our arguments, and then you go and then have to gall to tell me to stop posting here. Seriously who do you think you are?

Only once, and only at you. But you feel very strongly that you ARE everyone. When I call you out, I call everyone. This is not the case. It’s just you, in reference to your “Who are you to question the knowledge of the players that have been around longer” statement. Who am I? I’m the guy politely asking you to create your own topic and have a very deep meaningful discussion elsewhere.

<There is a difference between mind control>
While the very definition of the word perfectly fits here, the Silvari have -no- control to initially participate in the dream. They did not choose to, it’s forced on them. Sure the varying effects are debatable. But there is at least some degree of mind manipulation. Water is wet, dragons are around, we are in danger, ect. But the fact that this is brought up STILL points to you not reading or understanding my posts. It’s not “mind control” as we know it.

In order to buy your understanding of it, I would have to forget the intro, ignore that they even visit the dream state without their consent, ignore that feeling are forced on them, ignore that they “report to the tree”, ignore that the tree feels it’s saplings death, ignore that they experience anything they didn’t participate in, the list goes on.

But in all likelihood, you are not able to grasp the concepts of what I’m talking about. It’s not made to be insulting, but in our short interactions, ALL of your posts have absolutely nothing to do with what I’m saying. Often reiterating points I already agreed with. You might as well start talking about macaroni and cheese, that has much more relevant than the counterpoints you bring up. I just wish to debate someone who is a bit more… centred. No offense but I can’t stand people who claim to speak for the human race. I just wish to speak with another if that is ok?

…anyway. Continuing on, apologies for the double post. Spearheading my train of thought and why I think this way (among other things) is the Nightmare court itself. Which some ARE mindless drones (seemingly) who want to force their will through the dream state.

According to the Official Wiki:
Nightmare to overcome the Dream and will forcefully convert others to their cause. In the end, however, all converts believe the Nightmare’s path is correct, even if forced upon them, and are all more than willing to convince other Sylvari to choose the same path, regardless of how they go about it.

Now why would they try and control the Dream to force others, if the Dream has absolutely no control and is completely optional? Doesn’t this statement challenge the common belief on the effects and influence of the Dream?

Also if I am to understand the structure of the Nightmare Cult I have to break it down. A group of Silvari can and does force others through the dream and rituals to indoctrinate others to their cause?

This thread is going to get locked so kittening quickly…..

What is it with you and this fallacy you keep claiming about how supposedly think I speak for the Lore community (or do I think I speak for the entire human race now?) I got on your case about tone when you called out Konig Des Todes for something you were doing to him and later me. And my own statement about the people that have been around GW lore the longest was not about myself but people like Konig, who along with Drax probably knows more about the Lore of GW than some Anet employees. The two of them aren’t always right, but if one of them puts out some lore info, people around here do tend to give them serous consideration rather than dismissing it out of hand. As to Konig’s tone, that’s just how he is, he a blunt, no-nonsense kinda guy. And if you notice, there are other people in this thread that are also disagreeing with you

I am not supposing myself to be speaking for all when I reference the commonly agreed upon definitions of certain words or terms. Word have meaning, meanings that a collection of people have chosen to adhere to.

And you don’t own this thread just because you started it, that is not how forums work. You don’t get to decide who gets to take part of the conversation. So stop asking, ‘cause I ain’t going nowhere (at least until anet locks the thread).

They don’t choose to visit the Dream, its where they are born, where they are created. Not being able to choose whether or not to experience the Dream prior to awakening doesn’t equate to mind control or a lesser degree of free will. This is not unlike an argument I saw someone try to make about how since human can’t choose to be born, to choose to exist, that humans aren’t sapient somehow. There are tons of things we don’t get to choose in life, like who will we be born to, what our first language will be, whether or not we have to go to school etc. We can’t even control our own emotions. None of this is somehow mind control or lessening of freewill.

You bring up how they ‘report to the Tree’ as some kind of proof they are being controlled. The Pale Tree is their kittening mother, and you know what, when a person’s mother asks them to do something people generally do what they are asked, excluding unfortunate circumstances or very young children. She doesn’t however actually rule the sylvari, the closest thing they have to rulers are the Luminaries, four of the Firstborn that guide their people and deal with other races’ governments. As for ‘feelings’ that are force on them, ALL feelings are forced on a person. You can’t choose when to have an emotion and when not to, no one can truly control their emotions (they may be able to keep themselves from being controlled by their emotions, but that’s a different concept). In regards to the intro, your going to have to be more specific, depending on what choices you make in character creation the intro can be different.

You want to talk to someone else? That’s your choice, but I’m not leaving.

Firstly, if I sound hostile I do not mean to be – I can be blunt, especially when people deny facts, and especially when they deny facts while admitting not knowing the truth as you have.

A word to the wise: if you come in admitting you don’t know, and you’re told something by multiple people, it’s far more likely that those multiple people are correct rather than it being a mass conspiracy to trick you into believing lies.

Ignoring all the hostility towards me and others and, quite frankly, all the posts with such (I will not bother trying to decipher hostility from misconception from theorycrafting)…

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Now why would they try and control the Dream to force others, if the Dream has absolutely no control and is completely optional? Doesn’t this statement challenge the common belief on the effects and influence of the Dream?

Also if I am to understand the structure of the Nightmare Cult I have to break it down. A group of Silvari can and does force others through the dream and rituals to indoctrinate others to their cause?

Firstly, they don’t try to control the Dream. They try to exploit sylvari’s connections to it, and turn the Dream into Nightmare – a bit of a difference, as they’re not controlling either.

Secondly, they do not force others “through the Dream”. Basically, they torture sylvari, this feeds negative emotions through the connection to the Dream, in turn feeding the Nightmare making it stronger. Some sylvari who are tortured succumb to the Nightmare, while others do not (and are eventually killed if not rescued). Those who succumb to the Nightmare have their personalities utterly twisted.

The Dream forces nothing but Wyld Hunts, the Nightmare is not the same. It results in effective brainwashing.

Also, I’ suggest you be careful with the wiki’s wording. If it isn’t quoting the game (primarily as dialogue or UI text), then it’s fan-written words. This means there is subject to interpretation by the writer (and the reader, of course), as well as false information possible (be it out of date or due to the editor being misinformed or due to the editor intentionally misinforming). It may be called the “official wiki” but this is only because it is owned and maintained by ArenaNet, the contents of the articles are 100% done by the GW community.

The paragraph you quoted is not verbatim from any official source, so your mileage on exactness may vary.

@The Greyhawk: Arden is obviously a guy who needs to see proof before ever believing a person, even if he’s green in the field and consulting with folks who have been around years longer.

I myself do not feel inclined to search through wiki articles for dialogues that state the case, so I’m not going to bother

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@The Greyhawk: Arden is obviously a guy who needs to see proof before ever believing a person, even if he’s green in the field and consulting with folks who have been around years longer.

I myself do not feel inclined to search through wiki articles for dialogues that state the case, so I’m not going to bother

Understandable, its a trap I fall into too many times when posting in this forum, resulting in post of just a couple paragraphs taking over an hour to write.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Firstly, if I sound hostile I do not mean to be – I can be blunt, especially when people deny facts, and especially when they deny facts while admitting not knowing the truth as you have.

A word to the wise: if you come in admitting you don’t know, and you’re told something by multiple people, it’s far more likely that those multiple people are correct rather than it being a mass conspiracy to trick you into believing lies.

Ignoring all the hostility towards me and others and, quite frankly, all the posts with such (I will not bother trying to decipher hostility from misconception from theorycrafting)…

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Now why would they try and control the Dream to force others, if the Dream has absolutely no control and is completely optional? Doesn’t this statement challenge the common belief on the effects and influence of the Dream?

Also if I am to understand the structure of the Nightmare Cult I have to break it down. A group of Silvari can and does force others through the dream and rituals to indoctrinate others to their cause?

Firstly, they don’t try to control the Dream. They try to exploit sylvari’s connections to it, and turn the Dream into Nightmare – a bit of a difference, as they’re not controlling either.

Secondly, they do not force others “through the Dream”. Basically, they torture sylvari, this feeds negative emotions through the connection to the Dream, in turn feeding the Nightmare making it stronger. Some sylvari who are tortured succumb to the Nightmare, while others do not (and are eventually killed if not rescued). Those who succumb to the Nightmare have their personalities utterly twisted.

The Dream forces nothing but Wyld Hunts, the Nightmare is not the same. It results in effective brainwashing.

Also, I’ suggest you be careful with the wiki’s wording. If it isn’t quoting the game (primarily as dialogue or UI text), then it’s fan-written words. This means there is subject to interpretation by the writer (and the reader, of course), as well as false information possible (be it out of date or due to the editor being misinformed or due to the editor intentionally misinforming). It may be called the “official wiki” but this is only because it is owned and maintained by ArenaNet, the contents of the articles are 100% done by the GW community.

The paragraph you quoted is not verbatim from any official source, so your mileage on exactness may vary.

---

@The Greyhawk: Arden is obviously a guy who needs to see proof before ever believing a person, even if he’s green in the field and consulting with folks who have been around years longer.

I myself do not feel inclined to search through wiki articles for dialogues that state the case, so I’m not going to bother

Greyhawk I’m sorry I have no more patience to explain what I mean. I will simply ignore you. 2/3rds of your post has absolutely no bearing on what I’m talking about and if I continue with you I’m afraid it will divulge further into insanity. Thank you for coming to the supposed user defense, you are truly a knight of the people. Again you misunderstood, I made a request, not an order. I don’t own anything nor did I even hint at it. Your lack of reading comprehension is truly astounding.

You are correct, I should be more careful taking the Official Wiki as source material in most cases. As word for word often leads to not true understanding of the source material.

However THIS particular subject and what I’m talking about does not need a word for word breakdown. It’s very simple The Nightmare Court want to control the dream, their means of doing such are not in question. It’s their motivations at all, they want to force Silvari into their order, by using other Silvari. That is because their IS a connection.

Unless you are saying the only way to join The Nightmare court is willing sign up? or torture?

Except that they don’t want to control the Dream. They want all sylvari to “be themselves” which to them means “not follow Ventari’s teachings” and to them, the ideal/optimal manner of doing so is spreading Nightmare – which, again, is not “controlling the Dream” as they are as subject to the Nightmare as sylvari are to the Dream (more so, in fact, as the Dream does not permanently afflict one’s personality like the Nightmare can).

They do not want to force all sylvari to join the Nightmare Court, they want to remove sylvari from following the Ventari Tablet; getting as many sylvari to fall to Nightmare is just what they believe to be the optimal way. They couldn’t care less if the sylvari join the court or not, so long as they help remove the supposed “shackles” of the Ventari Tabelt – the irony of all this is that they’re trading proverbial shackles for a much more real (albeit not physical) set of chains.

And I am saying that the only way to join the Nightmare (let alone the Nightmare Court) is to do so willingly, either from the get go or by breaking down and succumbing to their torture. One cannot simply cast a magic spell and poof that sylvari is now a Nightmare Courtier.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that they don’t want to control the They couldn’t care less if the sylvari join the court or not, so long as they help remove the supposed “shackles” of the Ventari Tabelt – the irony of all this is that they’re trading proverbial shackles for a much more real (albeit not physical) set of chains.

And I am saying that the only way to join the Nightmare (let alone the Nightmare Court) is to do so willingly, either from the get go or by breaking down and succumbing to their torture. One cannot simply cast a magic spell and poof that sylvari is now a Nightmare Courtier.

Though no hinting a spell or any “poofing” going on… You are saying it’s willing, though slightly contradicting information can be found in your post, them not caring what the Silvari do is as far as I can see just not the case. If this was the case they simply catch and release them. They clearly want followers to seemingly power their own version of the Pale Tree.

I will have to study and play more to see if in fact, it’s completely optional and willing on their part. Also, if their motivations intentionally capturing the dream, or a product of them tampering with the Silvari? Arg even typing this statement leads me to believe there is at least -some- connection between living Silvari and the dream.

EDIT: From the Official Wiki
_[i]Sylvari are usually honest, direct and focused, taking most things at face value. With the dream ensuring there is so much in common with the other sylvari, the experience is cherished for creating uniqueness between them. They are eager to learn, experience and understand.

Sylvari morality and ethics are based on those of the Pale Tree. These were formed by following the lives of Ronan and Ventari, during the early growth of the Pale Tree and later written on Ventari’s Tablet situated at the base of the tree. After emergence, a sylvari is guided by older sylvari to understand what they have dreamed and ensure they have a clear understanding of the tablet, their history, and the world.[/i]_

This combined with the intro, and what we see as the average Silvari very heavily suggests the Tree has greater influence than you have been lead to believe. Even the existence of the Ventari’s Tablet and that a majority of Silvari believe this way is proof of this. You’re taking the Nightmare court, as proof the Tree has absolutely no control? (if I understand you correctly) that even people injured and exposed to everything in that dream were entirely up to them? No offense but I hope your wrong, it opens a plethora of plot holes and opens an incalculable amount of questions that may never get answers.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

They clearly want followers to seemingly power their own version of the Pale Tree.

There is no such stated goal of the Nightmare Court to “power their own version of the Pale Tree”. Regular Sylvari follow the teachings of Ventari. The Nightmare Court simply rejects the teachings of Ventari and say that Sylvari should follow their own path.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

I will have to study and play more to see if in fact, it’s completely optional and willing on their part. Also, if their motivations intentionally capturing the dream, or a product of them tampering with the Silvari? Arg even typing this statement leads me to believe there is at least -some- connection between living Silvari and the dream.

The Nightmare Court definitely don’t give people a chance to choose Nightmare or Dream. There is no option once you have been kidnapped by the Nightmare Court. I think that what Konig is saying is that the Nightmare Court don’t desire for ALL sylvari to eventually be part of the Nightmare Court. Currently they know that they are in the Minority, so they are making as much noise as they can trying to destroy the “shackles” of the Ventari Tablet. This “noise” includes torture, murder, and forced coercion to the side of the Nightmare Court.

Narcemus.1348:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

I will have to study and play more to see if in fact, it’s completely optional and willing on their part. Also, if their motivations intentionally capturing the dream, or a product of them tampering with the Silvari? Arg even typing this statement leads me to believe there is at least -some- connection between living Silvari and the dream.

The Nightmare Court definitely don’t give people a chance to choose Nightmare or Dream. There is no option once you have been kidnapped by the Nightmare Court. I think that what Konig is saying is that the Nightmare Court don’t desire for ALL sylvari to eventually be part of the Nightmare Court. Currently, they know that they are in the Minority, so they are making as much noise as they can trying to destroy the “shackles” of the Ventari Tablet. This “noise” includes torture, murder, and forced coercion to the side of the Nightmare Court.

So in a sense, even the game itself thinks the Pale Tree is manipulating the Silvari by the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? Regardless if the Nightmare court believes right, wrong, or indifferent, they believe it is a control mechanism the Tree is using to at the very least influence the Silvari.

It’s kind of funny and ironic that some (or all) on this forum believe without an absolute doubt that the Pale Tree CANNOT influence the Silvari, when one of the game’s factions believe it to be so. heh

From my understanding, nobody is actually doing anything to the tree correct? Nobody’s chopping at it? Burning it? Is this nightmare a result of torturing Silvari? Doesn’t that at least hint at a mental connection? I mean this link is more then hinted at with the deaths of the first.

No one here said there wasn’t a ‘mental connection’, not myself, not Konig, not anyone else that has posted in this thread. You have misrepresented the point some of us have been trying to make, you have used the Straw-man Logical Fallacy. Or perhaps you should take your own reading comprehension into consideration before casting aspersions about others.
What we’ve been trying to say is that this isn’t a Hive-mind (as the term is commonly understood) nor is there outright mind control (again, as is commonly understood). And whatever the Nightmare Court believes is not inherently reflective of reality within the GW universe. And as for the Dream, its as much an environment, a place, as it is a repository knowledge and experiences.
Are there plot holes? Yes, Arenanet has an imperfect writing style unfortunately, just something that happens when members of the writing team change over time.
You want a Hive-mind race from within GW? Closest you’re going to get is the Skritt, not the Sylvari.

You are missing an important point in this discussion. The Soundless are specifically running away from the mental “noise” of all the other Sylvari with whom they are connected via the dream. This is explicitly explained during some of the early missions in Caledon.

So yes, Sylvari are connected mentally at some level. When Caithe killed her sister, (to save her from torture by Foalin,) the Pale Tree saw the action in the dream.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

So in a sense, even the game itself thinks the Pale Tree is manipulating the Silvari by the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? Regardless if the Nightmare court believes right, wrong, or indifferent, they believe it is a control mechanism the Tree is using to at the very least influence the Silvari.

The nightmare court seeks to detach the sylvari from ventaris teachings, akin to breaking with the laws, norms and customs of their society. Those laws if we will, aren’t enforced on the sylvari through any will of the pale tree. It’s a literal tablet where the teachings is written upon, and in the Grove you can come across sylvari teaching other sylvari these teachings. Had the sylvari originated elsewhere, these teachings would not have been central to their society, as the tablet happened to be at the location where the pale tree grew. There is no control mechanism from the pale tree, other than the wyld hunts instilling a sense of purpose or drive for some sylvari, the teachings is simply a written work in stone produced by a centaur we met in gw1.

If anything, the pale tree and the dream help provide to the sylvari the exact opposite of mind control and a hive mind, it’s a shield protecting them, but to explain that and how this is central to what the sylvari are, you’d need to know the main plot of heart of thorns.

The pale tree doesn’t have any control over the sylvari.

ShaeMtal.9473:

There is no control mechanism from the pale tree, other than the wyld hunts instilling a sense of purpose or drive for some sylvari, the teachings is simply a written work in stone produced by a centaur we met in gw1.

You are correct in all but one point, Wyld hunts come from the Dream, by her own admission the Tree cannot choose or control what hunts a sylvari has or which sylvari even get a hunt.

The Greyhawk.9107:

ShaeMtal.9473:

There is no control mechanism from the pale tree, other than the wyld hunts instilling a sense of purpose or drive for some sylvari, the teachings is simply a written work in stone produced by a centaur we met in gw1.

You are correct in all but one point, Wyld hunts come from the Dream, by her own admission the Tree cannot choose or control what hunts a sylvari has or which sylvari even get a hunt.

Ah, true. Mixed that one up, was a bit late when I was making my post. Thanks. I suppose it would be more correct to say the pale tree can offer guidance or help for the sylvari who have a wyld hunt then, and it would be up to the individual sylvari to choose what to do with said guidance no?

ShaeMtal.9473:

The Greyhawk.9107:

ShaeMtal.9473:

There is no control mechanism from the pale tree, other than the wyld hunts instilling a sense of purpose or drive for some sylvari, the teachings is simply a written work in stone produced by a centaur we met in gw1.

You are correct in all but one point, Wyld hunts come from the Dream, by her own admission the Tree cannot choose or control what hunts a sylvari has or which sylvari even get a hunt.

Ah, true. Mixed that one up, was a bit late when I was making my post. Thanks. I suppose it would be more correct to say the pale tree can offer guidance or help for the sylvari who have a wyld hunt then, and it would be up to the individual sylvari to choose what to do with said guidance no?

Well, yeah. She certainly does have a insight into the Dream and its mysteries, and if nothing else she’s been around for a few centuries and knows a thing or two.

Seems like I’m about wrapping up Heart of Thorns, though I don’t see any hint of this “shield” you are talking about, you’ll have to explain that one to me. In the case of the main character, Caithe, and other Silvari do seem to be born with the tablets teachings in mind before leaving the dream. Now armed with better knowledge on the subject I can tell you that almost ALL of the dialog explaining how much control the Pale Tree has or has not comes from the manifestation of the tree itself. The death of the first was felt throughout and affected the unborn. This was not hinted at being optional. One could even argue that gave birth to the Nightmare Court.

He believes in “darkening the well” to be free of the tablets teachings. Now I don’t know if many, or all of you believe that the well is totally optional and a repository that can be pulled from with absolutely no effect on their growth or development outside of their own intended wills.

I’m here to say you’re wrong. Not only does the Official Wiki say it, and enforces the idea, something you all use yourselves in various posts around this forum, but the game itself.

If you remove (what is arguable) the most biased NPC on the subject, the Pale Tree, what would be left is absolutely nothing to stand on. I know at least one of you is a fan of not listening to the game itself (the Nightmare court is wrong I’m right) but I’ll reiterate the Nightmare Courts position.

They believe that the Pale Tree uses the tablets teachings to shackle the Silvari, they believe that the Pale Tree uses it even in the Dream. There is proof of this not only on the Wiki but in the game itself, this is indisputable in my mind. Like someone trying to tell me water isn’t wet. With that motivation, they seek to “poison” that completely optional well with their own teachings. From what I can see so far they have to some extent accomplished this. There WAS a version of their own tree the Nightmare Tree. I was told on this thread there wasn’t.

The answer is in the Nightmare Court itself if it succeeds the Silvari WILL be affected and different. They will -not- have an option even in the Dream. Because (as with the firsts death) they ALL are connected. At least on some level, and on a level that is currently trying to be exploited for ironically given this thread position the purpose of control.

If these things are so indisputable, mind quoting your sources for why?

There’s nothing I’ve ever seen to indicate the Pale Tree controls the Dream. If she could, then how could Mordremoth utilize the Dream to turn sylvari into Mordrem Guard?

The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

The only thing I saw you mention that is right is this:

The answer is in the Nightmare Court itself if it succeeds the Silvari WILL be affected and different. They will -not- have an option even in the Dream.

And that is because, as it is presented in the chapter 1 sylvari storyline, the Nightmare overcomes the Dream as it spreads. So if “the Nightmare Court succeeds” then there’d be no Dream left, just the Nightmare, and sylvari who fall to the Nightmare are indeed affected and often (but not always) different than before.

As for the shield thing…. Along with the above quote (“only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control”) there is this in-game:

Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
Player Character: You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
PT: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.
PC: Scarlet?
PT: I believe she opened herself to it when she let down the wall of her mind. Mordremoth’s corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

And another out of game source:

Mordremoth wasn’t solely interested in claiming physical territory. It also worked its way into the minds of vulnerable sylvari like Aerin, a Soundless who had consciously separated himself from the Dream of Dreams. Without the accompanying protection of the Pale Tree, Mordremoth twisted Aerin’s earnest ambition to join the Zephyrites, positioning him as its unwitting agent to steal the Zephyrites’ most prized and powerful magical artifact: Glint’s egg.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-story-so-farheart-of-thorns-beats/

EDIT: To expand a bit…

The Dream in of itself is the shield – and so is the Nightmare. The Pale Tree connects sylvari to the Dream (and as a byproduct of such, to the Nightmare). It’s what protects sylvari not just from Mordremoth’s corruption, but all Elder Dragons’ corruption. But with the Pale Tree’s weakened state, Mordremoth was able to “slip through the cracks” which are Wyld Hunts/Dark Hunts to whisper thoughts into their minds unique to each sylvari.

We never see or hear of mordrem connected to either Dream or Nightmare, or feeding either, though Mordremoth is (probably as part of his domain of mind). Unlike other dragon minions, which are linked by mind and will, sylvari are at best linked by emotion alone via the Dream – which is a one way street for such connection (for most sylvari – the level of connection varies by sylvari). Even the mordrem guard are not linked to Mordremoth the same way that risen are to Zhaitan, or icebrood to Jormag, etc. etc. as we see during “Buried Insight”: with the mordrem guard that began to ‘break out’ of Mordremoth’s control. Mordremoth’s influence over sylvari is more traditional brainwashing, whereas other dragons’ corruption are brute force enslavement.

To bring this back to the Pale Tree – she doesn’t enforce or manipulate the sylvari. She does push them to follow Ventari’s tablet because she feared them falling to Mordremoth. But there was no enforcement or manipulation – just your standard teacher/parent figure insisting a child to live with certain manners.

None of this, incidentally, is at all related to the original point of the thread: that sylvari “know everything past sylvari learned”.

First off thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking a response.

There is a bit of dialog (quite a bit) that does support that the teachings of the tablet continue long after birth. There is also quite a bit of evidence that the Silvari are influenced (however minor) and however optional, even from birth.

Its also very clear just as in the Dream’s case, the Nightmare and Mordremoth -CAN- be resisted.

To bring this back to the Pale Tree – she doesn’t enforce or manipulate the sylvari.

There is the word I’ve been looking for -doesn’t- my opinion has shifted a bit while discovering more of the story. It has shifted to, as you say, she doesn’t. It optional, she doesn’t choose to, the Nightmare Court can, and maybe will. When we do see her lose composure (death of the first) or Silvari suffering it is “felt” throughout the Silvari.

“Caithe: There you are! The Pale Tree told me where to find you. I have to tell you, Malyck’s tree…”
This is often mentioned also, the Pale Tree seems to know where every Silvari is at all times. This casual and often used statement of “the Pale Tree told me” is a bit more evidence that the Tree is in constant contact with the Silvari.

“Trahearne: Yes. If the Nightmare Court has robbed you of your memory and connection to the Dream, Malyck, she will heal you.

Malyck: And if they have not? What answer will she give us then?

Trahearne: Something true. The Dream cannot lie. That is its nature."

This is a very very important interaction. Not only can a Silvari’s memories be erased, but something else can be put in its place. Trahearne reassures the character that what will be replaced will only be the truth because that is its nature. Now that’s obviously not the Nightmare courts nature…

But more to the direct point, depends can a memory be passed on? Yes. Can that memory be passed on to more than one at once? Absolutely. Can and does the Silvari passdown knowledge gained by other Silvari at, least on a basic level? (water is wet, fire burns) yes. In the Silvari short time awakened do we see a civilization that rivals the others? Yes, very much so.

Here is where it gets tricky. How much does the Pale Tree teach or influence the Silvari beyond the basic necessities? How much can a Silvari learn before awakening? Does it have access to the entire well? Or only a portion of uncontrolled thoughts seep its way into the Silvari?

Specifically, the learning is never directly awnsered. At least one faction in the game believes (as do I) that the well can be tainted and the Silvari connection to the tree can be used as a means of control. The statement by Trahearne proves that if someone with ill intent CAN control a Silvari. The Pale Tree just doesn’t… at least thats what it thinks. My interactions with the tree leave me feeling it’s not her intent, shes not trying to consciously manipulate the Silvari and that her Nature only compels her to tell the truth.

I’ve seen this mentioned to backbone many arguments and its easily most of everyone posts. It is very clear if the person wills it enough they can do anything. This was never my intent to question this. The Tabet was optional for the tree, and for the most part the Silvari. As some NPCs have stated the Tree call is stronger in some than others. It is now more accurate to say (barring the end doesn’t change this) that the Pale Tree itself is of a hive mind, with the ability shown to feel other Silvari, locate them with pinpoint accuracy, able to feel the death, or if that Silvari is corrupted or in danger – at all times. They are easily the most connected race, and what took other Civilizations centuries to accomplish they’ve done the same in decades. It is in my opinion due to the mental connection and the ability to gain knowledge by means of the Dream.

I’d also just like to add (I’ve said this many times now) that the Tree does -NOT- control the well. As with my card analogy she (the nightmare court to) can control what goes into that well. Which often (not always) produces like minded Silvari.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

There is a bit of dialog (quite a bit) that does support that the teachings of the tablet continue long after birth. There is also quite a bit of evidence that the Silvari are influenced (however minor) and however optional, even from birth.

After awakening (technically not “birth”)? Yes. No one denied that the teachings of the tablet hold sway after awakening. Rather, it’s “before awakening” that’s more questionable. While we do see that it can influence some (as proven by the tutorial instance, us seeing a version of Ventari in the dream preaching), most sylvari would likely be unaware of the teachings until awakening – this is part of the purpose of the mentors we can see throughout the Grove, to teach the newly awakened the teachings of Ventari – and anything else of importance that they did not learn in the Dream.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

When we do see her lose composure (death of the first) or Silvari suffering it is “felt” throughout the Silvari.

Nothing indicates that the Pale Tree lost her composure in any of these cases.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

This is often mentioned also, the Pale Tree seems to know where every Silvari is at all times. This casual and often used statement of “the Pale Tree told me” is a bit more evidence that the Tree is in constant contact with the Silvari.

I think you’re taking this a bit too far. The Pale Tree would likely know where we planned to go because we sent a message. There’s nothing in any of these lines that implies a mental communication. After all, it never once happens to us, and there are many cases where a mental communication from the Pale Tree would have been fortuitous. Even in just the sylvari storyline.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

This is a very very important interaction. Not only can a Silvari’s memories be erased, but something else can be put in its place. Trahearne reassures the character that what will be replaced will only be the truth because that is its nature. Now that’s obviously not the Nightmare courts nature…

Again, I think you’re taking the context a bit too greatly.

Amnesia is common across all species, and would be known by sylvari at this point. Because the PC, Caithe, and Trahearne believed Malcyk was just your standard sylvari from the Pale Tree, his lack of knowing it made them believe he lost his memories, and if the Nightmare Court were after him Trahearne came to the conclusion that they somehow caused his memory loss. The Pale Tree would be able to aid Malyck in this theoretical situation because she has access to the Dream, and in turn to Malyck’s memories.

In other words, it was a false conclusion. This is something that is relatively frequent in GW2 – perspectives from NPCs that turn out wrong. Its ArenaNet’s way of adding believability to the world, which most MMOs tend to lack unless it’s a critical plot twist.

This line is not proof – or even support – for the notion that sylvari can control the minds of other sylvari as you seem to conclude.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Can and does the Silvari passdown knowledge gained by other Silvari at, least on a basic level? (water is wet, fire burns) yes. In the Silvari short time awakened do we see a civilization that rivals the others? Yes, very much so.

Technically unknown, and technically no.

On the first – the critical thing is that almost all newly awakened sylvari undergo the tutelage of mentors in the Grove, where they learn the critical things. This may include the “basic level of knowledge” like “water is wet, fire burns”, just as it clearly includes (as we can see from ambient dialogue in the Grove), the teachings of Ventari and their meaning.

On the second: While the sylvari have certainly grown great in numbers, what little technological advances they have largely come from other races (even Scarlet, as ingenious as she was made out to be, only retrofitted other people’s technology – be it charr, asura, norn, hylek, or human). The settlements sylvari have are both outshined and outnumbered not only by human and charr, but even by norn and asura who had suffered a wipe of their territories in the past 200 years. So I would say their civilization does not rival the others – they’re clearly in 5th place among the five races.

Further, their advancement can be – and probably is – more likely attributed to the fact they trade with those civilizations that have long been far above them rather than the shared knowledge of the Dream. In other words, they were elevated partially by the humans and asura, norn and charr – likely in that order of most to least.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

It is now more accurate to say (barring the end doesn’t change this) that the Pale Tree itself is of a hive mind, with the ability shown to feel other Silvari, locate them with pinpoint accuracy, able to feel the death, or if that Silvari is corrupted or in danger – at all times.

This is definitely false. And we know it for two reasons.

Firstly, the Pale Tree (and any sylvari alive at the time) did not know where or how Riannoc died. Just that he did. If she was able to locate sylvari with pinpoint accuracy, then she would have known where Riannoc died and if she had a true hive mind, with access to all sylvari memories either in retrospect or at the moment, then she would have known how Riannoc died as well.

Secondly, there is Scarlet Briar’s death:

Sylvari PC: I come with withering news, I’m afraid.

Pale Tree: I’ve already heard. Scarlet is dead. I am proud that you’re kind enough to come inform me yourself.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree

If she could sense the death of every sylvari, then she would not have “heard” of Scarlet’s death, she would have FELT Scarlet’s death. While the Pale Tree clearly feels the death of some sylvari – as shown with Riannoc and Wynne (both Firstborn who died when sylvari numbered less than a hundred, so this may be a heavy influence on how she felt their deaths), as shown with Scarlet Briar (a Secondborn) she does not feel the death of every sylvari.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

As with my card analogy she (the nightmare court to) can control what goes into that well. Which often (not always) produces like minded Silvari.

The Nightmare Court cannot control what goes into the well – and neither can the Pale Tree.

If the Pale Tree could control what goes into the well, then she would ensure nothing that would spread the Nightmare can go in. The Nightmare Court are but simple sylvari, no more greater than any other, and can only put dark memories and emotions into the Dream by inciting powerful emotions (usually but not always in torture) – in other words, exploiting the same methods that normal memories and emotions go into the Dream.

Oh my god… not at you, your points are heard, but sadly irrelevant with what I just learned…

“The true nature of the Dream is unknown even to the Pale Tree.”

What!? Not only found on the Wiki but the Pale Tree just eluded to it… This destroys not only my understanding of it but everyone else as well. All of it is theory crafting if you don’t know the purpose of something it could very well be anything! It could be a mass means of control to produce dragon hunters, it could be as benign as a magic mutation, could very well be anything literally. Jesus… I hope you didn’t know this. We are debating a puzzle that is missing the main piece. Equivalent to us sitting down at a table debating this flashing orb we found and what it does, WE DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IT DOES. Oh my god… hahaha well… the Silvari definitely have potential, their main learning mechanism is not even understood. So any debate on the subject is pure conjecture and chest pounding. Without knowing whats its purpose or how it came to be it’s all… talk.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Without knowing whats its purpose or how it came to be it’s all… talk.

That’s like saying let’s discount everything in astrophysics because the true nature of the universe is unknown to us… even though there are other things that astrophysics explains clearly and fully.

While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics given the right knowledge. Astrophysics however minor in let’s say 20B.C, is almost entirely non-applicable given how much knowledge we’ve “gained”. I can imagine 8000 years from now they will look back at us and think the same god willing. Looking back they didn’t have the right tools, knowledge, mindset, or really anything to attempt Astrophysics, but I’m sure they tried, I’m sure they argued, had debates. More importantly, things that were very “clear” to them then, is no longer clear or proven false.

Astrophysics is the perfect analogy of not having all the pieces, sure we can talk about it, but we don’t have the main piece. Given time with seasons who knows maybe Ronin wanted to create dragon hunters, maybe it turns out the well or lake is magically bound to the tree thoughts, a point is we don’t know the main piece that we need to know to have this kind of debate. On a much less grand scale, I’ve tried peanut butter, I know that I like it, I’ve even seen it made, I don’t understand all the ingredients in it, but I know it’s nature and why it is here, and how it came to be. I have enough information to say if I like the stuff. Apply that to anything that you have.

We can go back and forth all day, year, whatever. That fact is we truly do not know, and that won’t change until we have its main piece. It’s not missing a smaller piece, it’s missing the main component to have this discussion.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics given the right knowledge. Astrophysics however minor in let’s say 20B.C, is almost entirely non-applicable given how much knowledge we’ve “gained”. I can imagine 8000 years from now they will look back at us and think the same god willing. Looking back they didn’t have the right tools, knowledge, mindset, or really anything to attempt Astrophysics, but I’m sure they tried, I’m sure they argued, had debates. More importantly, things that were very “clear” to them then, is no longer clear or proven false.

Astrophysics is the perfect analogy of not having all the pieces, sure we can talk about it, but we don’t have the main piece. Given time with seasons who knows maybe Ronin wanted to create dragon hunters, maybe it turns out the well or lake is magically bound to the tree thoughts, a point is we don’t know the main piece that we need to know to have this kind of debate. On a much less grand scale, I’ve tried peanut butter, I know that I like it, I’ve even seen it made, I don’t understand all the ingredients in it, but I know it’s nature and why it is here, and how it came to be. I have enough information to say if I like the stuff. Apply that to anything that you have.

We can go back and forth all day, year, whatever. That fact is we truly do not know, and that won’t change until we have its main piece. It’s not missing a smaller piece, it’s missing the main component to have this discussion.

Here’s where this idea comes from: See screenie below. The cutscene states that The Dream contains the memories of the Sylvari. It also states that new Sylvari gain awareness within the dream before awakening.

So, clearly:

A. The Pale Tree , who can see into the dream, has access to the memories of the Sylvari, generally.

B. Some of that Knowledge is transferred to new Sylvari. It’s also clear that Sylvari remain connected to the dream to some extent. The Soundless are a faction that wishes to silence that connection. Ergo, the connection exists.

So, ancestral knowledge of the Sylvari is stored and is accessible. To what extent? We don’t know. One NPC Sylvari in The Grove explains that she can sense the emotions of plants, not thoughts, but emotions.

That’s not saying the Dream contains all memories, or that every sylvari learns of all memories (or even any memory technically), like OP thought (and now understands).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s not saying the Dream contains all memories, or that every sylvari learns of all memories (or even any memory technically) like OP thought (and now understands).

Uhh no, that is not what I thought. Even in my hive mind theory there surely has to be a system in place for weeding out nonpertantant information. Can one remember from a dream how to take or put something back together? Certainly. All this side discussion of how, or what does not change this fact. The Silvari can and does learn something it has never experienced or trained for. This is still this fact.

Studying why the nature, origin, and purpose of the “lake” or “well” is hidden from the Pale Tree leads to a few obvious conclusions.

Why use a plot device to obscure this from the Pale Tree, unless it’s to shatter her understanding of it? From a writers point of view why hide it unless you plan to in the future use this? If you aren’t going to shatter her perception or understanding of it why introduce this plot device at all? Why not just let her know? …So evidence thus far on this phenomenon known as the “Dream” and all understanding of it could very well (more evidence than not) be thrown on it’s head.

The thing that bugs me is the community (thus far) seemingly knew this… They knew the origin, purpose, and nature of the Dream was still unknown, yet still spoke from a “matter of fact” position, when that position is impossible if you don’t have those three pieces.

Sure the short term effects can be studied, and we can theorize what we think the purpose or function given all that we know. But we don’t actually know. It appears on the outside to be a mass tool for collecting information about the world, the Silvari (for the most part) seem to be its “feelers” or eyes and ears. Could be used something as benign as looking for the perfect place to plant another tree or have an offspring. It could be a defense mechanism to Slay Dragons when Dragons have been removed or the threat the Silvari are called home (or just wither away.)

Currently there are three known stages of Silvari development, and in every post (save a select few) most confuse including me what stage a Silvari is influenced, some including that guy Greyhawk believe the Silvari are -never- influenced, that everything is completely optional, all the time, that other races are more connected. This is simply not the case in the slightest if it wasn’t for the forum restriction I’d say he’s never played the game, much less the Silvari.

(Stage 1) The Dream – The biggest unknown, who, how, or more importantly what is learned here is a big unknown, it is described as a “lake” and you take a “bucket” from that lake. How big is the bucket? Are they all the same? Can others learn more or less? Are still unknown… even more important then that is the long term effects and the connection, how strong or weak, whats its purpose, and how much control can one exploit from that link is still up for debate. Memories can be wiped, and replaced with the few interactions I have posted here. Even a sort of makeshift “mental firewall” is in place as pointed out to me shielding fellow Silvari.

(Stage 2) Pale Tree – It is described as the Pale Tree teaching the necessities to its young sometime during the dream but not before they wake up. During this stage, she instills “water is wet”, “fire is hot”, and what is described as basic living needs. Beyond this, in this stage, she passes on the teachings of the Tablet. This is why the main character almost word for word embodies the tablets teachings before even waking up. It is during this stage the Nightmare Court believe they are polluting the “well” and the Pale Tree is deviating from it’s true nature.

The game often uses the word “make” very often in fact. Regardless of the very long post by another member explaining they can’t choose what goes into the well, I found this to be incorrect. But not in the general sense. They are choosing to put pain and suffering tainting the well and have a lasting and prolonged impact on a Silvari’s development.

Never to be confused with free will, it is shown a few times that a Silvari with enough free will can overcome all. Though I don’t know how much free will you can have when your memories are wiped clean…

The Soundless choose not to hear the Pale Tree for the very reason that this connection can and is being exploited. Though it’s unclear if their connection is totally cut off, or even if that is possible.

(Stage 3) After the first two dramatic stages with many unknown factors, we have the Silvari emerge, still with unknown intent, and an unknown bond to the Dream. It’s very clear that there is a bond, but it’s purpose, effects, and really anything are unknown.

Some here have posted sorta off topic responses such as “they have free will” to the “Tablet was optional for the tree.” To the absolutely ridiculous “they are not as connected as other races and other races are more connected” – these all detract from the fact. There is a mass learning and development tool in place, this lets the race learn something they did not seek out themselves. From studying the culture and gaining a better understanding of it, in my opinion, the Silvari still make the best Engineers.

You have this remarkable habit of Strawman-ing everything I say, and now I apparently haven’t even played the game. I don’t even know what you mean why you claim I said that “the other races are more connected”. Where did you pull that from? What does it even mean?

The Greyhawk.9107:

You have this remarkable habit of Strawman-ing everything I say, and now I apparently haven’t even played the game. I don’t even know what you mean why you claim I said that “the other races are more connected”. Where did you pull that from? What does it even mean?

I’d stop caring at this point if I were you. I lost all hope when I read this little gem:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics

Vesuvius.9874:

The Greyhawk.9107:

You have this remarkable habit of Strawman-ing everything I say, and now I apparently haven’t even played the game. I don’t even know what you mean why you claim I said that “the other races are more connected”. Where did you pull that from? What does it even mean?

I’d stop caring at this point if I were you. I lost all hope when I read this little gem:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics

I would have hoped you put aside your need to be right and ego enough to see the strong correlation between your comment and this debate. As pointed out before Astrophysics is a very precarious subject, history has proven that nothing is very clear. Many still believe in the spiritual belief on how the universe was created, others do not, science journals submit around the world a near daily pace to shatter the understanding of black holes, string theory, and just about every corner of the subject. Just like the Silvari, they are missing a few key pieces (origin, purpose, ect) and perhaps always will. If they had these the science community could have something more akin to a solid answer, and in time a final concrete answer could be made. Given the lack of understanding or the disregard on this subject maybe you should “stop caring” though you did care enough to post, maybe you posted just to tell others you stopped caring? That’s it… or you could dare I say it, contribute something meaningful to the debate?

Aden Yeshua.2148:

you should “stop caring” though you did care enough to post

If you read my quote above, you’ll see that I asked Greyhawk to stop caring. At no point did I say that I’ve stopped caring. You claim that I did, and then turn around to ask me why I’m posting here if I’ve stopped caring. What you’ve done here (with me) is what you’ve been doing with Greyhawk this entire thread (which btw he’s already pointed out, see below).

The Greyhawk.9107:

You have this remarkable habit of Strawman-ing everything I say

Maybe you’re doing it subconsciously but you need to be aware of it if you’d like to have a meaningful conversation/debate/argument.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Many still believe in the spiritual belief on how the universe was created

What does that have to do with astrophysics…?

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Just like the Silvari, they are missing a few key pieces (origin, purpose, ect) and perhaps always will. If they had these the science community could have something more akin to a solid answer, and in time a final concrete answer could be made.

Yes, a “final concrete answer” could be made… until someone down the road comes up with another theory that will challenge the status quo and when proven, will become the new “final concrete answer”… until someone further down the road comes up with another theory…

Vesuvius.9874:

If you read my quote above, you’ll see that I asked Greyhawk to stop caring. At no point did I say that I’ve stopped caring. You claim that I did, and then turn around to ask me why I’m posting here if I’ve stopped caring. What you’ve done here (with me) is what you’ve been doing with Greyhawk this entire thread (which btw he’s already pointed out, see below).

Uhh, no. Saying “If you were him” combined with the statement “I’ve lost all hope” a statement very much akin to “I stopped caring” yes, from those statements I can make a pretty accurate assessment that you’ve lost all hope in this debate and stopped caring. I’m glad he has a social counselor to guide him (he really needs it) but I feel like your skills are wasted. – Forget not wanted in the debate, but could you please stop derailing my topic it’s bad enough explaining the alphabet to Greyhawk, I don’t need another trying desperately to prove that he/she has friends on here.

Vesuvius.9874

Many still believe in the spiritual belief on how the universe was created

What does that have to do with astrophysics…?

Cuts to the heart of it, and explains why you are not grasping what I’m saying. If you don’t know how something is made, or it’s purpose, Astrophysics could be turned on its head, and often has.

Vesuvius.9874

Yes, a “final concrete answer” could be made… until someone down the road comes up with another theory that will challenge the status quo and when proven, will become the new “final concrete answer”… until someone further down the road comes up with another theory…

Yes, hopefully to an end conclusion. There gets a point where we know enough of something to tell you how it works. To put it in the most simple terms possible the Avatar of the tree, the Wiki, and a few other NPCs have boiled down to “I don’t know really” what the dream is, or it’s purpose, or how it came to be. This I believe is deliberate, and something that hopfully will be used in the future.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

snip

Look, I’m sure you’re a good guy and all, and that you mean well, but your style of discussion where you go at those who’ve disagreed or challenged you in a rather rude manner aren’t doing your arguments any favours.

You seem very adamant about your view on the sylvari and the dream, but so far it hasn’t done much to convince others. It’s a nice little headcannon if we could call it that, but I don’t see you convincing others or the majority of it. Especially when people like koening can refute more or less all of the claims in such a well laid out manner. You are free to have the headcannon you want, but the way you’ve been going at it won’t convince others of it being “right”.

ShaeMtal.9473:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

snip

Look, I’m sure you’re a good guy and all, and that you mean well, but your style of discussion where you go at those who’ve disagreed or challenged you in a rather rude manner aren’t doing your arguments any favours.

You seem very adamant about your view on the sylvari and the dream, but so far it hasn’t done much to convince others. It’s a nice little headcanon if we could call it that, but I don’t see you convincing others or the majority of it. Especially when people like koening can refute more or less all of the claims in such a well laid out manner. You are free to have the headcannon you want, but the way you’ve been going at it won’t convince others of it being “right”.

I appreciate you jumping in and attempting to guide me, I’m not adamant about any view really. For all we know could go any way, after playing that is what I concluded. I don’t know who this Koening is, I’m sure he’s very knowlegable, but nobody save Arenanet staff should be considered an “end all” of sorts. Again no offense to you but I can’t stand those that claim to speak for everyone, you do not know enough of everyone to make the statements you’re making. What are you proposing is I come to you to find out how to “convince” eveyone, correct? Your post certainly suggests just that. Ignoring the assumption that you hold all the social secrets on here I just as well get a pm instead of chiming in with something directed at me. If we could please get back on topic…

Aden Yeshua.2148:

Vesuvius.9874:

If you read my quote above, you’ll see that I asked Greyhawk to stop caring. At no point did I say that I’ve stopped caring. You claim that I did, and then turn around to ask me why I’m posting here if I’ve stopped caring. What you’ve done here (with me) is what you’ve been doing with Greyhawk this entire thread (which btw he’s already pointed out, see below).

Uhh, no. Saying “If you were him” combined with the statement “I’ve lost all hope” a statement very much akin to “I stopped caring” yes, from those statements I can make a pretty accurate assessment that you’ve lost all hope in this debate and stopped caring. I’m glad he has a social counselor to guide him (he really needs it) but I feel like your skills are wasted. – Forget not wanted in the debate, but could you please stop derailing my topic it’s bad enough explaining the alphabet to Greyhawk, I don’t need another trying desperately to prove that he/she has friends on here.

Annnd now we’re throwing in Ad Hominems on top of Strawmans. Man, I want to meet whomever taught you how to debate.

Aden Yeshua.2148:

ShaeMtal.9473:

Aden Yeshua.2148:

snip

Look, I’m sure you’re a good guy and all, and that you mean well, but your style of discussion where you go at those who’ve disagreed or challenged you in a rather rude manner aren’t doing your arguments any favours.

You seem very adamant about your view on the sylvari and the dream, but so far it hasn’t done much to convince others. It’s a nice little headcanon if we could call it that, but I don’t see you convincing others or the majority of it. Especially when people like koening can refute more or less all of the claims in such a well laid out manner. You are free to have the headcannon you want, but the way you’ve been going at it won’t convince others of it being “right”.

I appreciate you jumping in and attempting to guide me, I’m not adamant about any view really. For all we know could go any way, after playing that is what I concluded. I don’t know who this Koening is, I’m sure he’s very knowlegable, but nobody save Arenanet staff should be considered an “end all” of sorts. Again no offense to you but I can’t stand those that claim to speak for everyone, you do not know enough of everyone to make the statements you’re making. What are you proposing is I come to you to find out how to “convince” eveyone, correct? Your post certainly suggests just that. Ignoring the assumption that you hold all the social secrets on here I just as well get a pm instead of chiming in with something directed at me. If we could please get back on topic…

You, are the one that keeps derailing, not anyone else. You are keeping the discussion from staying civil thanks to how you’ve treated Konig, myself and now Shae. You have Strawmaned us, keep making accusations about “people speaking for others” when they are just making generalized observable statements, you keep telling people what to do as if you actually have ownership over this thread and then tell us we need to keep our egos in check. From the get go you haven’t treated anyone here with respect nor given their arguments respect. If this thread ends up getting locked, you’ve no one but yourself to blame for it.

Also, its Sylvari. With a Y.