Sylvari's racism ?

Sylvari's racism ?

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Posted by: Dawanarth.4601

Dawanarth.4601

Q:

So a few people are saying that the Sylvari aren’t trust worthy because they are dragon spawned
But since their dragon is dead aren’t they the most trustworthy race(no more relation with a dragon and uncorruptable).

Thank you for your answer.

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

A:

One of the things about racism is that it’s rarely logical. You take one aspect of the culture, amplify it to ridiculous levels and then apply it to every member of that group without looking deeper. In this case, because a few sylvari fell to the jungle dragon, the other races are worried they still might revert in some way, shape or form. We only have the sylvari’s word that the voice is out of their head, and even they can’t truly promise it won’t come back. Plus, as I understand it, this is the first time the dragons have actually been killed. Who can say what the future holds for the sylvari race?

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

Well, Zaithan is dead and his minions are still around.
Furthermore Tequatle got stronger.

However in this case it is mostly panic and fear in the peoples mind. They are still dragon spawn, even if their master is dead.
People don`t trust them.

There is the idea that Elder Dragon Energy has “a will and shape on its own”, to some degree.

It does seek or accumulates in a host, that will become the next ED of that partiular energy.
As long as we don`t know, where Mordremoths energy ended up in, Sylvari could easily be coverted, by the next one who inherits the ED energy.
Which by all means could be a follower of Mordremoth.

Old Mordy has been defeated by Trahearns sacrifice.

Btw. we don`t know where Zaithans energy went. Though the Priory is studying his tail (Or was it the one of Tequatle)ß

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Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

I think it’s mostly just paranoia combined with people not really understanding how dragons command and control their minions. I suspect it doesn’t help that at first Mordremoth only affected 2 of them (Scarlet and Aerin) and then random Pact members turned, then more and more of them. It probably made it seem like any sylvari could turn against the other races at any moment (or maybe that they’re all ‘sleeper agents’ just waiting for the right moment). Especially to people who don’t know the dragons as well as we/our characters do.

However I don’t think they’re any more trustworthy than the other races. True they can’t be turned into icebrood, branded or risen (although I don’t think anyone gets turned into risen now Zhaitan is dead), but that’s not a matter of trust, as far as we know it’s simply being hit with enough dragon magic (and in the case of risen being dead at the time).

The only remaining dragon that converts minions is Jormag (and possibly the Deep Sea Dragon, we don’t know) and that one only targets male norn. Although we don’t know if that’s the dragons preference or the Sons of Svanir.

I think this just puts the sylvari on an equal footing with the other races. They’re not dragon minions and I suspect the experience may have made at least some of them question the Dream, Ventari’s teachings and everything else that tells them how they should act (or I may have been spending too much time with Canach). Basically they have complete free will now and each individual can decide what to do with their lives.

As they did before some will be good, some will be evil and most will fall somewhere in between. Just like the other races.

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I think it’s mostly just paranoia combined with people not really understanding how dragons command and control their minions. I suspect it doesn’t help that at first Mordremoth only affected 2 of them (Scarlet and Aerin) and then random Pact members turned, then more and more of them. It probably made it seem like any sylvari could turn against the other races at any moment (or maybe that they’re all ‘sleeper agents’ just waiting for the right moment). Especially to people who don’t know the dragons as well as we/our characters do.

However I don’t think they’re any more trustworthy than the other races. True they can’t be turned into icebrood, branded or risen (although I don’t think anyone gets turned into risen now Zhaitan is dead), but that’s not a matter of trust, as far as we know it’s simply being hit with enough dragon magic (and in the case of risen being dead at the time).

The only remaining dragon that converts minions is Jormag (and possibly the Deep Sea Dragon, we don’t know) and that one only targets male norn. Although we don’t know if that’s the dragons preference or the Sons of Svanir.

I think this just puts the sylvari on an equal footing with the other races. They’re not dragon minions and I suspect the experience may have made at least some of them question the Dream, Ventari’s teachings and everything else that tells them how they should act (or I may have been spending too much time with Canach). Basically they have complete free will now and each individual can decide what to do with their lives.

As they did before some will be good, some will be evil and most will fall somewhere in between. Just like the other races.

I am wondering if the racial memory aspect would produce a more ethical culture. We do know that studies in irl humans have shown people behave more ethically when they think they are being observed. But it is uncertain whether the dream recording all of your experiences has this effect.

We know for certain that all of them (except Malyck) share the same mother. We also know that they create their own family units based upon the empathic connections they have with other Sylvari. Does the knowledge that Mother is always watching strongly affect behavior?

My assumption is probably no, given that Faolain showed greater devotion to Caithe than to the Pale Tree. But then again, all Sylvari are taught Ventari’s teachings before they are born.

Just as a matter of logistics, it is highly improbable that all newborns from other races received the same level of mentorship. Every single Sylvari was taught to do Good and what that entailed. And more and more Sylvari will be born with the racial memory of doing Good/other wisdom.

From that I would assume that that Sylvari are the most trustworthy race

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Well, Zaithan is dead and his minions are still around.
Furthermore Tequatle got stronger.

However in this case it is mostly panic and fear in the peoples mind. They are still dragon spawn, even if their master is dead.
People don`t trust them.

There is the idea that Elder Dragon Energy has “a will and shape on its own”, to some degree.

It does seek or accumulates in a host, that will become the next ED of that partiular energy.
As long as we don`t know, where Mordremoths energy ended up in, Sylvari could easily be coverted, by the next one who inherits the ED energy.
Which by all means could be a follower of Mordremoth.

Old Mordy has been defeated by Trahearns sacrifice.

Btw. we don`t know where Zaithans energy went. Though the Priory is studying his tail (Or was it the one of Tequatle)ß

Old Mordy’s power went to Glint’s child, so if it ends up nice and good, the sylvari are fine. But if it’s evil…Sylvari are screwed. Zhaitan’s energy I suspect went to the closest ‘focus’ for its power, Tequatl itself. If its defeat is permanent, then the power from that would have gone elsewhere, to the closest dragon or dragon champion nearby, following the leylines. Which means its possible it went to Bubbles or Primordus, considering how close Orr and the Ring of Fire and ocean are to each other (and since the next zone is confirmed to be in the Ring of Fire, it may have gone to Primordus, if he was there at the time of Zhaitan’s death, which there’s no telling considering how he can move underneath the earth itself).

[hS]
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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

A thing to note: this idea that one of an Elder Dragon’s minions can rise to become the next one? Pure, 100% player speculation- one that’s been around long enough that a lot of us take it for granted, but still. The only actual lore we have on this matter, as far as I can remember, is this interview with Ree Soesbee.

From that, it doesn’t sound like a dragon’s power ‘ends up’ in a place, like it’s all one big energy packet the same way that Abaddon’s power was. It doesn’t even sound like Tequatl necessarily got any of Zhaitan’s energy after he died. All she says is that the power that was already in Tequatl is no longer being controlled and so is evolving and shaping itself. In theory, that should’ve been simultaneously occurring with all remaining risen. Tequatl just happened to be the biggest and baddest left, and so the easiest to spot the difference in.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kratos.4365

Kratos.4365

one question that needs to be answered first (in my opinion anyways), is Glint unique? are the champions self-aware and have their own personalities or are they pure machines and someone managed to give Glint self-awareness that allowed her to do all that she did? if they’re their own beings, then it’s entirely possible that the champions want to take their master’s place as Elder Dragon. the other hand has them as pure machines carrying out their maker’s last orders until all the energy they had gets dispersed through the ley lines into various sponges and the remaining dragons and they just collapse. it’d be nice if the next living world season addressed the champions and other more quirky parts of the dragons

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Old Mordy’s power went to Glint’s child, so if it ends up nice and good, the sylvari are fine. But if it’s evil…Sylvari are screwed.

Mordremoth’s magic – not his domain of power – split into four directions, and even what went north wasn’t fully absorbed by Mordremoth (some went to the Maguuma Bloodstone).

Zhaitan’s energy I suspect went to the closest ‘focus’ for its power, Tequatl itself. If its defeat is permanent, then the power from that would have gone elsewhere, to the closest dragon or dragon champion nearby, following the leylines.

We know that Zhaitan’s energy did go elsewhere – in addition to Tequatl – because some reached the Maguuma Bloodstone.

Which means its possible it went to Bubbles or Primordus, considering how close Orr and the Ring of Fire and ocean are to each other (and since the next zone is confirmed to be in the Ring of Fire, it may have gone to Primordus, if he was there at the time of Zhaitan’s death, which there’s no telling considering how he can move underneath the earth itself).

During Zhaitan’s reign, the risen had control of the Ring of Fire. If Primordus is at the Ring of Fire, it would be a recent occupation, and Seis’ events imply that the occupation is beginning at this moment.

A thing to note: this idea that one of an Elder Dragon’s minions can rise to become the next one? Pure, 100% player speculation- one that’s been around long enough that a lot of us take it for granted, but still. The only actual lore we have on this matter, as far as I can remember, is this interview with Ree Soesbee.

Actually, it’s an in-game theory:

Ogden Stonehealer: The brotherhood believed that she would one day become an Elder Dragon. She was old and wise, well on her way.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

The point of it not being in one place, however, is true, as shown with Bloodstone Fen’s journals and the ending of HoT, and the ley line events that are born because of said ending of HoT.

one question that needs to be answered first (in my opinion anyways), is Glint unique? are the champions self-aware and have their own personalities or are they pure machines and someone managed to give Glint self-awareness that allowed her to do all that she did? if they’re their own beings, then it’s entirely possible that the champions want to take their master’s place as Elder Dragon. the other hand has them as pure machines carrying out their maker’s last orders until all the energy they had gets dispersed through the ley lines into various sponges and the remaining dragons and they just collapse. it’d be nice if the next living world season addressed the champions and other more quirky parts of the dragons

Glint is said to be unique in her telepathy, and she was purified by the Forgotten.

Champions are self-aware – they can acknowledge their own being, their place in the world, their level of strength, and are intelligent to varying degrees – but they are still enslaved to their Elder Dragons’ rule. The Forgotten removed that enslavement, giving Glint back her will.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

A thing to note: this idea that one of an Elder Dragon’s minions can rise to become the next one? Pure, 100% player speculation- one that’s been around long enough that a lot of us take it for granted, but still. The only actual lore we have on this matter, as far as I can remember, is this interview with Ree Soesbee.

Actually, it’s an in-game theory:

Ogden Stonehealer: The brotherhood believed that she would one day become an Elder Dragon. She was old and wise, well on her way.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

The point of it not being in one place, however, is true, as shown with Bloodstone Fen’s journals and the ending of HoT, and the ley line events that are born because of said ending of HoT.

That was sloppy writing on my part. My bad.

What I meant is the idea that the Dragon’s current most powerful lieutenant would naturally not just replace but succeed its master- that Tequatl would specifically become the next Elder Dragon of undeath and shadow, with Zhaitan’s risen answering to it. It’s not a bad theory, per se, but a lot of it does rest on reading more into the Tequatl patch than was explicitly stated, as well as the unproven parallel to the way Kormir replaced Abaddon, and the disproved idea that a Dragon’s energy would seek for a new host.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

Champions are self-aware – they can acknowledge their own being, their place in the world, their level of strength, and are intelligent to varying degrees – but they are still enslaved to their Elder Dragons’ rule. The Forgotten removed that enslavement, giving Glint back her will.

Are we totally sure that’s all they did? Because if Tequatl and Arah explorable is any indication, there are still plenty of Risen champions out there, even though Zhaitan is dead. We know dragon champions can comprehend and desire free will, and Zhaitan’s no longer pulling any of their strings… so why haven’t we seen champions in the same camp as King Reza laying down their arms? Same question goes for the Mordrem Guard, all of whom retained their memories and intellect after corruption.

Also, when we performed the same ritual, we weren’t converting a self-aware minion. We freed Twitchy the Undead Chicken, who wasn’t even sentient in the first place.

Based on what we learned about magic from the last patch (high concentrations of it change your physiology so that you need to consume it to live, but doing so makes you axe-crazy), I don’t think corruption works the way we thought it worked. I think Elder Dragons corrupt using a process similar to what the survivors of the Bloodstone explosion went through. They’ve just found a way to weaponize it, by establishing a mental link with their victims while they’re being force-fed ley energy.

That explains why the Risen and Mordrem continue to fight, and why they all retain the skills they learned in life despite supposedly being little more than husks. It’s not a lack of free will that’s the problem. The real problem is the ever-present, uncontrollable desire to consume magic.

The lack of free will is just a convenient side effect.

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Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

I think that theory makes a lot of sense. Especially because it ties in nicely to what we know happened to Scarlet, and later the other sylvari.

When Scarlet went into Omadd’s machine she was trying to ‘see’ the Eternal Alchemy and while the entire force of magic in Tyria was flowing through her she was also hit with Mordremoth’s influence. This manifested itself as ‘voices’ in her head – strange thoughts which she struggled to tell apart from her own. I think it was especially difficult for her because the machine appears to have damaged her mind, making her own thoughts more irrational and unpredictable.

But the effect on other sylvari was similar – they heard the dragons voice in their heads telling them to do certain things, usually to attack their allies and come to him. (If you play a sylvari you’ll actually hear this periodically in HoT maps.) Even for sylvari like Canach and the PC who were able to tell the dragon’s thoughts apart from their own apparently the urge to obey was almost overwhelming, they had to consciously fight to resist it.

Add in physical corruption which makes you crave magic and reliant on absorbing it and I can imagine it’d be almost impossible to resist, no matter how much free will you have.

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Are we totally sure that’s all they did? Because if Tequatl and Arah explorable is any indication, there are still plenty of Risen champions out there, even though Zhaitan is dead. We know dragon champions can comprehend and desire free will, and Zhaitan’s no longer pulling any of their strings… so why haven’t we seen champions in the same camp as King Reza laying down their arms? Same question goes for the Mordrem Guard, all of whom retained their memories and intellect after corruption.

King Reza wasn’t corrupted. His body was, and his soul imprisoned – but his soul remained independent. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan was destoyed, it didn’t surrender.

After Zhaitan’s death, the risen still act and function as if Zhaitan lived still.

As for mordrem – we’re told that they’re still functioning but acting hectic without Mordremoth’s ever-present mind communicating them.

I’m not quite sure what you’re asking though, or why you think dragon minions would simply stop when their Elder Dragon is killed. And I don’t get why you think dragon champions “desire free will” – not a single one ever hints at such. Even someone like Faolain who desired freedom at any cost was all “there is only Mordremoth’s will” – dragon minions do not have, nor desire, free will.

Also, when we performed the same ritual, we weren’t converting a self-aware minion. We freed Twitchy the Undead Chicken, who wasn’t even sentient in the first place.

Twitchy would have been a mindless dragon minion functioning solely on Zhaitan’s will (even post-mortem). Without that will to drive it, it’s just mindless – so it lost its hostility and gained nothing.

Based on what we learned about magic from the last patch (high concentrations of it change your physiology so that you need to consume it to live, but doing so makes you axe-crazy), I don’t think corruption works the way we thought it worked. I think Elder Dragons corrupt using a process similar to what the survivors of the Bloodstone explosion went through. They’ve just found a way to weaponize it, by establishing a mental link with their victims while they’re being force-fed ley energy.

You forget one very important thing. Two, in fact.

First, Gorr already proved that dragon corruption works in a very fast function of: dragon/minion drains magic from victim, dragon twists magic, dragon/minion returns varying amounts of magic. More magic means more powerful and smarter minion (into a champion even). Gorr even utilized this discovery to create a weapon that poisons dragon minions utilizing this same method.

Second, the Bloodstone explosion turned everyone mad, but didn’t enslave their will – they’re just addicts, which is vastly different from dragon minions. Furthermore, and more importantly, it didn’t change their physiology at all, while dragon corruption would change it completely.

Dragon minions do not need magic to survive. They seek it because their master desires it. If anything is functioning like the Bloodstone explosion victims, it’s not the dragon minions but the Elder Dragons themselves.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tiefsee.3647

Tiefsee.3647

Sylvari could be a backup/seeds of mordremoth, we don’t know what happens if – eg someone loyal from the Nightmare Court goes into the jungle to steel a seed/gather one out of the decaying body of poor Lady Faolain to plant a new, not so Pale Tree on a new gravejard (i heard they got great fertelizer in Orr) – could result in the birth of a new dragon/new dragon like pale tree with a own (not recruted) army of Nightmare Court soilders

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Nothing says or indicates there are seeds inside sylvari, nor does it seem that sylvari being “planted” would result in a tree sprouting.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.