Guild Wars 2

Moonyeti.3296:

This right here is my issue with the character. I actually like Taimi, so I don’t want her to get killed or anything, but it does absolutely destroy any tension knowing that there is no way she will be killed off due to the blowback that would cause.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years, as my dad was wheelchair bound. He hated how TV and movies would always have the disabled person always virtuous and moral. As he used to say “Crippled people can be jerks too. Just look at me!”

That’s actually really false. Just type into google “disabled villains”. There are tons. But for a few examples: Darth Vader, Dr No, Blofeld, Davros, even sodding Paul Robinson on Neighbours has one leg LOL.

I think you, and to some extent your Dad were psychologically ignorant to any villain who was disabled, or you are simply unaware of the hundreds actually out there.

Celine.6857:

Moonyeti.3296:

This right here is my issue with the character. I actually like Taimi, so I don’t want her to get killed or anything, but it does absolutely destroy any tension knowing that there is no way she will be killed off due to the blowback that would cause.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years, as my dad was wheelchair bound. He hated how TV and movies would always have the disabled person always virtuous and moral. As he used to say “Crippled people can be jerks too. Just look at me!”

That’s actually really false. Just type into google “disabled villains”. There are tons. But for a few examples: Darth Vader, Dr No, Blofeld, Davros, even sodding Paul Robinson on Neighbours has one leg LOL.

I think you, and to some extent your Dad were psychologically ignorant to any villain who was disabled, or you are simply unaware of the hundreds actually out there.

I was also going to give some examples, but all of my examples were supervillains. So, it depends strongly on genre, and if you’re not into the right kind of thing, you won’t see as many disabled villains.

However, they do exist.

ekarat.1085:

Celine.6857:

Moonyeti.3296:

This right here is my issue with the character. I actually like Taimi, so I don’t want her to get killed or anything, but it does absolutely destroy any tension knowing that there is no way she will be killed off due to the blowback that would cause.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for years, as my dad was wheelchair bound. He hated how TV and movies would always have the disabled person always virtuous and moral. As he used to say “Crippled people can be jerks too. Just look at me!”

That’s actually really false. Just type into google “disabled villains”. There are tons. But for a few examples: Darth Vader, Dr No, Blofeld, Davros, even sodding Paul Robinson on Neighbours has one leg LOL.

I think you, and to some extent your Dad were psychologically ignorant to any villain who was disabled, or you are simply unaware of the hundreds actually out there.

I was also going to give some examples, but all of my examples were supervillains. So, it depends strongly on genre, and if you’re not into the right kind of thing, you won’t see as many disabled villains.

However, they do exist.

Good point, I was thinking more of like TV and lifelike dramas more so than sci-fi or fantasy, where this does occur more often. Kind of ironic on my part as well, considering the forum I posted in.

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

PopeUrban.2578:

It makes sense for her as a character. She’s defined by her rash judgement and childish selfishness specifically because she’s a selfish child. A selfish orphan who is told by her society to fall in line and just give in to her limitations.

So why do I have this selfish crippled orphan asuran child as one of the people in my combat unit? The more you describe her the more unfit for what she’s a part of she appears to be.

PopeUrban.2578:

The plot itself has made that very clear about Taimi. She shows up not because you ask her to, or because she’s the best option, but because that’s what Taimi wants to do.

And that’s why she’s in my opinion bad for the story – not only does she not fit in but I find it incredibly absurd that she can just do what she wants. This is a war – not a playground.

PopeUrban.2578:

Over the course of the living story she goes to great lengths to prove she’s a valuable member of the team, and that she can hold her own

Valuable? Sure – in some situations. In others she proves to be a massive liability. The entirety of her use could have been accomplished with a remote-controlled golem.

PopeUrban.2578:

he’s there specifically because someone needs to fill Zojja’s shoes, and Zojja’s MIA.

But why is she physically there? It really makes no sense. IF she’s so smart and bad-kitten can’t she make a remote controlled golem?

PopeUrban.2578:

It would be extremely out of character for Taimi to say “here, responsible adult, drive my hotrod mega-golem because its too dangerous for little old me” It doesn’t make sese for her motivations as a character. Furthermore it wouldn’t make sence for the PC or Braham to suggest it. With that golem she’s proven her ability to fight even the gnarliest battles. Without it she’s physically vulnerable but no less mentally imposing.

Sure – it doesn’t make sense now because the whole story up till this point is upside-down. This should have been the case from the very get-go. She should never have piloted the golem ( at least not from inside) to begin with.

My point is this – a crippled soldier could perform the real-life duties of a tank gunner or loader in most Main Battle Tanks. Does that mean they have crippled soldiers in tanks? No. Why? Because if the tank breaks down they can’t get out and fight.

Despite her “imposing” intellect – outside her machine she’s a huge liability. Why would you want that by your side?
Dessa is another asura that uses her “intellect” to guide us through fractals remotely. I do not think Taimi couldn’t have played a similar role.

PopeUrban.2578:

Taimi and those around her are very aware of those limitations, and the plot makes no effort to downplay them.

Then – again – I have to ask (because honestly I don’t understand) – why is she frontlining?

You might call it character development – and it certainly is – but that doesn’t make it any less forced or absurd.

Celine.6857:

Harper.6175:

Agreed – And I don’t. But between the two – at least one isn’t disabled and can actually fight.
That aside – I’m almost equal in how much I don’t want either of them with me.

As someone with a disability myself, I am almost insulted :P (jk)… Taimi, albeit disabled has a very huge role to play in her intellect. She brings an awful lot of brains to the team, you don’t just need brawns. She also provides some incredibly funny comments which brings flavour to the game that I love.

People on the side of not wanting her (or Braham now lol) with them when fighting, or whatever, are still thinking too ‘real world’, this is Tyria, fantasy. It’s essential flavour to the game which makes it interesting; plots change or continue with what Taimi has to say about her discoveries, some of which are essential.

There are some key moments in the story where she is vital (without wanting to add spoilers) and we wouldn’t be able to continue… thinking of one particular moment where we’d have been trapped… for ever.

As an interesting concept, my husband looked up her age: she is (in real world) a teenager, but that means nothing in the context of a fantasy world like Tyria even though she is a progeny, she’s a bit bigger lol. Check out some images of an actual progeny and Taimi.

A progeny
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Progeny

Taimi:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi
Last but not least, she shows Phlunt who is boss, and that makes her the biggest hero of all in my book :P

Huge role? Sure
Intellect? Sure
Does she have to frontline for either of these to be a part of the story? No. Not unless you want to force it ( which the writers obviously wanted to).

One problem people keep bringing up is that “oh this is fantasy – everything is cool and totally fine” – no.
Just because the game is set in a fantasy setting doesn’t mean anything can happen and we’ll be happy and just roll with it because " eh it’s fantasy man let it go".

When I play a fantasy game I accept the setting, I accept some pre-determined truths about the world, I accept a lot of the lore as being “in-universe”.
However – I still consider this world ( even though fantasy) should still be rooted in “reality” – not in the sense of non-magical non-mythical elements but in the sense of realistic characters making realistic decisions withing the fantasy setting.

Just because you’ve got a fantasy setting doesn’t mean that automatically “everything works” and “just go with it”.

I have nothing against her involvement in the plot (not more than any other DE 2.0 member – which I’d want gone if given the choice) but that doesn’t mean I’ll just be happy with her totally unrealistic depiction in the game.
Nobody in her condition would be manning the front lines – and even if they wanted to – nobody would let them.

Her entire involvement in the plot could have been made much more realistic with the aid of a remote-controlled golem. There – done – easy.

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

Those moments are there – and are a good indication of why she shouldn’t be in the front lines to begin with.
Secondly – I don’t understand what you mean by “this all figured out”.

You’re approaching Taimi as if the Commander personally had a choice in the matter. You didn’t. In fact the Commander and the part did in fact tell her to ‘scram, kid’

She didn’t. And thus, because the Commander and by extension his party are just, decent, heroic people, the eye-rolled and took care of the stubborn kid. They found out she’s actually valuable.

She decided not to because, as in reality, being in command of the situation does not equate to being in control of the situation.

Of course she shouldn’t be on the front lines. However, Taimi, as a person, feels an intense need to do so. Would the plot be better served if you could just leave her on the side of the road somewhere? I mean, she’s a liability, it would make tactical sense. However, it wouldn’t be very heroic.

What’s a more interesting character, the able-bodied tank gunner that just goes and sits in the tank, or the crippled tank gunner that SHOULD let someone else sit in the tank, but refuses to because it’s his tank, that he designed, and he feels personally responsible for the war the tank is being used in?

You’re attempting to apply logic without accounting for the internal absence of logic in heroic storytelling. All heroes are heroic only because of a schism in logical storytelling. It’s never logical for the underdog to take on the giant monster. The logical thing to do would be to retreat, get a giant army, and come back.

In fact that’s what you did in the original living story.

In HoT, the story begins with that army being completely dissassembled, your close friends being captured, and you and your closest allies taking the shortest possible route to victory because there’s not time to take the most logical option.

Of course she shouldn’t be on the front lines. The fact that she is anyway is what makes her an interesting character. I really don’t want a plotline filled with nothing but Rytlocks. Boring Soldiery types with no apperant physical or psychological flaws. Flaws are what define interesting characters. Overcoming flaws is what defines heroic characters.

By default, The Commander is a legit kitten. Both because it’s the player character, and because ascribing detailed personality traits to what’s supposed to be a character of the player’s design and creation is a bad idea. Any good war story only has room for a very small number of legit kittenes. What makes those stories interesting are the people that aren’t ideal, aren’t sure of themselves, and fight anyway.

Nobody’s debating that Taimi is inappropriate for the role that she’s in. The fact that she’s inappropriate for it and is able to do it anyway is what makes her interesting. The idea you could look all over Rata Sum and not find one other Asuran Child (or adult) capable of that. That makes her the exception which creates a heroic narrative.

Attitudes towards people’s age have changed a lot in the last century. It used to be common for people that young to have jobs, get married, and even fight as soldiers.

Men not much older were put in charge of armies; Henry V and Richard I led troops into battle at 15 and 16.

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

Those moments are there – and are a good indication of why she shouldn’t be in the front lines to begin with.
Secondly – I don’t understand what you mean by “this all figured out”.

You don’t have to like the character or the circumstances at present but the story is sound, and ongoing.

Her disabillity and age don’t make her a plot pariah. I think they’ve done a really good job with her character overall and the way they’ve handled her so far has been brilliant.

PopeUrban.2578:

- snip-

Yes, it is great for the narrative, bad for the immersion.

A fragile being, still able to proove herself in an harsh enviroment, even though no one really accepted her before. Belittled her even.
Now, just because she pushed, bullied and fought her way through, she can show off her skills.

True, a very touching story.

Till we talk about immersion and how she could easily stayed back right in the silverwastes with her new mentor and come after them with a team and give them support from the back.
We could meet her, after we established footholds throughout the jungle.

I mean, this is the territory of Mordremoth where almost everything wants to kill us and we have to traverse by gliders most of the time to get through.

By the logic of the story it means we went by foot everywhere, only because Taimi had to ride her Golem.

It is very convinient, that the story only shows how she is with us at the crucial points, but not how everyone has to wait for her to catch up or how we have to go the more dangerous routes, just because she is disabled and thus not able to follow as fast.

The Golem is a slow tank and we are sourounded by danger. Danger that is easily able to crack it open and feast on the little Asura.

Then we are in a hurry, run against the time and for some reason are still able to wait for her.

Yes, she has her pro’s, but for this enviroment, her con’s are just not fitting.

Scruffy would need a tank and glider mode, to be able to keep up here.
he would need to be able to disguise, or cloak himself.

he is a big shiny golem and while we have a Charr with a flaming sword, I bet even he is able to dim it in case they need to hide from enemies.

Simply put: very dangerous enviroment, a race against time and a little disabled child who wants to be taken seriously just doesn’t mix well

She has no reason to be there, aside from thte fact that she wants to help.
Okay, I go around every Kindergarden and tell them about the beauty of warfare and how they can help on the frontlines.
I go ahead and ask them if they would enlist right now. How many do you think would do that?
How many people would tell me I am crazy to do that?

Why? Because the general idea is that children shouldn’t be on the battlefield.

I am aware that these are dire times and these are not compairable with our modern times and more likely to things happening in Afghanistan where child soldiers are a thing (because of the dire circumstances), but even they prefer the healthy.

Unless I’m very much mistaken, we’ve all mostly come to agreement. Having Taimi along is right for her character arc, despite the risk to her health, but wrong for the mission. The only point of disagreement is which one of those things the writers should prioritize, and seeing as that is a matter of preference neither side is going to win the other over. Immersion and narrative both have solid points in their favor, and nobody’s right, or wrong, for thinking one of those is more important than the other in this case. If you want to voice your opinion on the matter, by all means, do so, but the arguing with each other’s points is already just going around in circles.

PopeUrban.2578:

However, Taimi, as a person, feels an intense need to do so.

And we all know theaters of war operate exactly according to how each and every one of the participants feel. Sure she shouldn’t be frontlining – but get this – she wants to -oh there it is I guess we have to let her.
That’s why the plot is bad.

Would the plot be better served if you could just leave her on the side of the road somewhere?

Considering I dislike her as a whole – yes. But that answer is subjective.
Instead as yourself – would the plot not be better served if you let her on the sidelines operating a remote golem? Would it not mean she does exactly what she’s doing now only with just a bit more realism and in a more believable fashion?

PopeUrban.2578:

I mean, she’s a liability, it would make tactical sense. However, it wouldn’t be very heroic.

There’s heroic and then there’s just plain stupid. Sometimes the two overlap – but they don’t really need to.

What’s a more interesting character, the able-bodied tank gunner that just goes and sits in the tank, or the crippled tank gunner that SHOULD let someone else sit in the tank, but refuses to because it’s his tank, that he designed, and he feels personally responsible for the war the tank is being used in?

If by “interesting” you mean "which of these characters makes the story unbelievable and ruins immersion then yes – you nailed it with the second one.
Why not have a blind gunner instead? There’s only so far you can push something for the sake of “lets make it cute or interesting” before it loses its touch with reality and just becomes on par with poorly written fanfic.

PopeUrban.2578:

You’re attempting to apply logic without accounting for the internal absence of logic in heroic storytelling. All heroes are heroic only because of a schism in logical storytelling. It’s never logical for the underdog to take on the giant monster. The logical thing to do would be to retreat, get a giant army, and come back.

You are wrong – heroism does not build itself up on the lack of logic. In fact – in most cases heroic actions and outcomes appear because the people involved realize there is no other alternative.
As a great quote once went “out of desperation courage is born”.
A guy jumping on a grenade in order to save his squadmates from the blast remains logical and heroic – as the person is logically putting the mission above his own survival and does what must be done.
Heroism isn’t just about “fighting the big baddie” and even if it is – sometimes there’s no big army to get, sometimes you just have to – and so you do. That’s also heroic.

PopeUrban.2578:

In HoT, the story begins with that army being completely dissassembled, your close friends being captured, and you and your closest allies taking the shortest possible route to victory because there’s not time to take the most logical option.

And have I not pointed out at every turn that HoT’s story was incredibly poor and absurd?

Of course she shouldn’t be on the front lines. The fact that she is anyway is what makes her an interesting character. I really don’t want a plotline filled with nothing but Rytlocks. Boring Soldiery types with no apperant physical or psychological flaws. Flaws are what define interesting characters. Overcoming flaws is what defines heroic characters.

Sure – but can the flaws be believable too? I mean – the context + flaw result should be something that isn’t completely out of whack. Such as a disabled asura frontlining to her heart’s content because why not.

PopeUrban.2578:

By default, The Commander is a legit kitten. Both because it’s the player character, and because ascribing detailed personality traits to what’s supposed to be a character of the player’s design and creation is a bad idea. Any good war story only has room for a very small number of legit kittenes. What makes those stories interesting are the people that aren’t ideal, aren’t sure of themselves, and fight anyway.

I understand what you’re saying – I really do – but there’s a believable way to do it and then there’s what we got with Taimi.

Wanderer.3248:

Attitudes towards people’s age have changed a lot in the last century. It used to be common for people that young to have jobs, get married, and even fight as soldiers.

Men not much older were put in charge of armies; Henry V and Richard I led troops into battle at 15 and 16.

Absolutely – but people at those times were also prepared much earlier to be able to take charge of themselves and do stuff as adults.
I’m pretty sure the monarchs you mention were groomed from birth to be able to do said tasks.

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.4173:

CETheLucid.3964:

Harper.6175:

When you compare an NPC that’s part of the story to the PC you display a lot of ignorance to the basic different roles the two play and both to their importance in the story.

And you do the same with Taimi as a character ignoring moments when she was in mortal danger and the fact she’s kinda out there in the jungle alone right now.

You disregard the times they try to make her character more believable with “she’s a child she has the plot armor” in the same way you might disregard the PCs own immunity in regards to the story.

You’re forgiving of that, but you don’t want to see where this goes because she’s a child with disabilities? I mean do you really think you have this all figured out?

Remind me not to watch a movie with you.

Those moments are there – and are a good indication of why she shouldn’t be in the front lines to begin with.
Secondly – I don’t understand what you mean by “this all figured out”.

You don’t have to like the character or the circumstances at present but the story is sound, and ongoing.

Her disabillity and age don’t make her a plot pariah. I think they’ve done a really good job with her character overall and the way they’ve handled her so far has been brilliant.

I honestly don’t remember many people praising HoT’s story after it came out – quite the opposite really.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Unless I’m very much mistaken, we’ve all mostly come to agreement. Having Taimi along is right for her character arc, despite the risk to her health, but wrong for the mission. The only point of disagreement is which one of those things the writers should prioritize, and seeing as that is a matter of preference neither side is going to win the other over. Immersion and narrative both have solid points in their favor, and nobody’s right, or wrong, for thinking one of those is more important than the other in this case. If you want to voice your opinion on the matter, by all means, do so, but the arguing with each other’s points is already just going around in circles.

Fair – what I’m trying to say is Anet should begin delivering both narrative and immersion – and should stop sacrificing immersion for the sake of token characters with which they can pride themselves because "omg look guys our game is so progressive – crippled children now do what they want woo woo empowering*.

Jaken.6801:

PopeUrban.2578:

- snip-

Yes, it is great for the narrative, bad for the immersion.

A fragile being, still able to proove herself in an harsh enviroment, even though no one really accepted her before. Belittled her even.
Now, just because she pushed, bullied and fought her way through, she can show off her skills.

True, a very touching story.

Till we talk about immersion and how she could easily stayed back right in the silverwastes with her new mentor and come after them with a team and give them support from the back.
We could meet her, after we established footholds throughout the jungle.

I mean, this is the territory of Mordremoth where almost everything wants to kill us and we have to traverse by gliders most of the time to get through.

By the logic of the story it means we went by foot everywhere, only because Taimi had to ride her Golem.

It is very convinient, that the story only shows how she is with us at the crucial points, but not how everyone has to wait for her to catch up or how we have to go the more dangerous routes, just because she is disabled and thus not able to follow as fast.

The Golem is a slow tank and we are sourounded by danger. Danger that is easily able to crack it open and feast on the little Asura.

Then we are in a hurry, run against the time and for some reason are still able to wait for her.

Yes, she has her pro’s, but for this enviroment, her con’s are just not fitting.

Scruffy would need a tank and glider mode, to be able to keep up here.
he would need to be able to disguise, or cloak himself.

he is a big shiny golem and while we have a Charr with a flaming sword, I bet even he is able to dim it in case they need to hide from enemies.

Simply put: very dangerous enviroment, a race against time and a little disabled child who wants to be taken seriously just doesn’t mix well

She has no reason to be there, aside from thte fact that she wants to help.
Okay, I go around every Kindergarden and tell them about the beauty of warfare and how they can help on the frontlines.
I go ahead and ask them if they would enlist right now. How many do you think would do that?
How many people would tell me I am crazy to do that?

Why? Because the general idea is that children shouldn’t be on the battlefield.

I am aware that these are dire times and these are not compairable with our modern times and more likely to things happening in Afghanistan where child soldiers are a thing (because of the dire circumstances), but even they prefer the healthy.

From what I’ve seen so far, Scruffy’s just as hard to crack open as any other member of the party. If it can kill Taimi in Scruffy, then it can kill anyone else. So unless you think some dying kid’s life is more important than any of the other’s, it’s irrelevant.

And a remote-controlled golem WOULDN’T be the same, because I don’t think Taimi has rapid long-range two-way communication – and having Taimi close enough for her to control a remote golem effectively puts her close enough to be in danger, and if it’s remote, it means Taimi is NOT safe inside a suit of autonomous power armor. Furthermore – Scruffy is not slow. It’s always been able to keep up with my commander.

If Taimi’s not in the party, where she has access to the situation, she cannot use her intellect to solve the problems the party ends up in. We’re not strictly an elite combat unit – we’re a fully-rounded adventuring party.

… Then again, telling her “No, you can’t come” may actually work out best for Tyria, depending on how vengeful she is feeling after building an even bigger, stronger golem and killing Kralkatorrik without you.

Harper.4173:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Unless I’m very much mistaken, we’ve all mostly come to agreement. Having Taimi along is right for her character arc, despite the risk to her health, but wrong for the mission. The only point of disagreement is which one of those things the writers should prioritize, and seeing as that is a matter of preference neither side is going to win the other over. Immersion and narrative both have solid points in their favor, and nobody’s right, or wrong, for thinking one of those is more important than the other in this case. If you want to voice your opinion on the matter, by all means, do so, but the arguing with each other’s points is already just going around in circles.

Fair – what I’m trying to say is Anet should begin delivering both narrative and immersion – and should stop sacrificing immersion for the sake of token characters with which they can pride themselves because "omg look guys our game is so progressive – crippled children now do what they want woo woo empowering*.

I wouldn`t go as far calling their goal “empowering” , rather than implementing a broad spectrum of characters of many different origin to show diversity.

Their goal doesn`t have to be empowering.

With Taimi,they went a bit overboard and went with a “traditional” RPG story, that usually doesn`t care for realism.

I mean, how many 14-17 year olds have saved the world in the RPG history.

It is not wrong to have these characters, but in a game like Guild Wars, which so far was tending more towards realistic depictions, it is kinda weird.

Which is even more interesting is, that they starte great with her. With Scarlet she came in and then stood back.
When she entered the mists, she did`t go far, but broke down a few steps in.

Then with LS2 she also stood back most of the time and/or was in areas that were explored, while being escorted by other capable characters.

She made a mistake, then got up again, making her golem more durable in the process, ready for HoT… Which sounds good and all… if it would actually have done something.
It didn`t do anything. Scruffy was the good old Scruffy (maybe a different skin?)

Here is the thing, though. A plan rarely succeds the encounter with the enemy and her shouldn`t have. Scruffy is slow and not agile enough for the jungle. More so with enemies that are faster and stonger then he met before.

It would totaly be okay for ther to stand back and maybe learn a bit about drones from the scrappers and have her a hologram following us.

Even the Rata Novus stuff could have happened, with her suddenly being dropped down in Scuffy, via bombardement, her drone being the signal.

I don`t dislike Taimi, even though she needs to be cut back and learn her place (and I am talking more about her being written. I don`t think it portrays her as intelligent, the way she is right now. If any she is very impulsive and emotional, completly overestimating her abilities and usefullness. Yes she could help, but that role can be filled by almost every other educated asura)

Sartharina.3542:

From what I’ve seen so far, Scruffy’s just as hard to crack open as any other member of the party. If it can kill Taimi in Scruffy, then it can kill anyone else. So unless you think some dying kid’s life is more important than any of the other’s, it’s irrelevant.

And a remote-controlled golem WOULDN’T be the same, because I don’t think Taimi has rapid long-range two-way communication – and having Taimi close enough for her to control a remote golem effectively puts her close enough to be in danger, and if it’s remote, it means Taimi is NOT safe inside a suit of autonomous power armor. Furthermore – Scruffy is not slow. It’s always been able to keep up with my commander.

If Taimi’s not in the party, where she has access to the situation, she cannot use her intellect to solve the problems the party ends up in. We’re not strictly an elite combat unit – we’re a fully-rounded adventuring party.

… Then again, telling her “No, you can’t come” may actually work out best for Tyria, depending on how vengeful she is feeling after building an even bigger, stronger golem and killing Kralkatorrik without you.

I think you quoted the wrong person here.
I never talked about an remote controled golem.
I talked about his physical abilities

And if we talk about being slow, do you know what rubberbanding, technical trickery, or teleprtation to destination means?
That is how Scruffe gets close and after the comander. I have seen him doing that a lot.

Furthermore he is not build to traverse the jungle, the way the comander is able to.
Did you ever see him jump anywhere? Glide anywhere?
He just magicly apears out of thin air.
In Rata Novus the model of him stops at a cliff and then he just appears on the other side several times, without any indication that he uses any teleportation (as far as I am aware).

Talking about durability. Sure, gameplaywise Scuffy goes down like everyone else, but let us just look at it from a realistic or even prefered narrative point of view: Scruffy is a big hunk of metal, which is even more improved at the end of LS2. He is certainly at the same level as a light tank.
That isn`t the case of any other of the fleshy DE2.0 members. They would go down a bit easier.
On the other hand. They are agile, nimble and certainly able to follow the commander thanks to their abilities and tools (they could use gliders for example). They can hide much easier, etc..

Another question is: Why does it have to be Taimi? Can`t we take one of the other “cool” Asura with us? We meet several along the way, all being as capable as her. I mean, most of them served the priory for example.

Sartharina.3542:

Jaken.6801:

PopeUrban.2578:

- snip-

Yes, it is great for the narrative, bad for the immersion.

A fragile being, still able to proove herself in an harsh enviroment, even though no one really accepted her before. Belittled her even.
Now, just because she pushed, bullied and fought her way through, she can show off her skills.

True, a very touching story.

Till we talk about immersion and how she could easily stayed back right in the silverwastes with her new mentor and come after them with a team and give them support from the back.
We could meet her, after we established footholds throughout the jungle.

I mean, this is the territory of Mordremoth where almost everything wants to kill us and we have to traverse by gliders most of the time to get through.

By the logic of the story it means we went by foot everywhere, only because Taimi had to ride her Golem.

It is very convinient, that the story only shows how she is with us at the crucial points, but not how everyone has to wait for her to catch up or how we have to go the more dangerous routes, just because she is disabled and thus not able to follow as fast.

The Golem is a slow tank and we are sourounded by danger. Danger that is easily able to crack it open and feast on the little Asura.

Then we are in a hurry, run against the time and for some reason are still able to wait for her.

Yes, she has her pro’s, but for this enviroment, her con’s are just not fitting.

Scruffy would need a tank and glider mode, to be able to keep up here.
he would need to be able to disguise, or cloak himself.

he is a big shiny golem and while we have a Charr with a flaming sword, I bet even he is able to dim it in case they need to hide from enemies.

Simply put: very dangerous enviroment, a race against time and a little disabled child who wants to be taken seriously just doesn’t mix well

She has no reason to be there, aside from thte fact that she wants to help.
Okay, I go around every Kindergarden and tell them about the beauty of warfare and how they can help on the frontlines.
I go ahead and ask them if they would enlist right now. How many do you think would do that?
How many people would tell me I am crazy to do that?

Why? Because the general idea is that children shouldn’t be on the battlefield.

I am aware that these are dire times and these are not compairable with our modern times and more likely to things happening in Afghanistan where child soldiers are a thing (because of the dire circumstances), but even they prefer the healthy.

From what I’ve seen so far, Scruffy’s just as hard to crack open as any other member of the party. If it can kill Taimi in Scruffy, then it can kill anyone else. So unless you think some dying kid’s life is more important than any of the other’s, it’s irrelevant.

And a remote-controlled golem WOULDN’T be the same, because I don’t think Taimi has rapid long-range two-way communication – and having Taimi close enough for her to control a remote golem effectively puts her close enough to be in danger, and if it’s remote, it means Taimi is NOT safe inside a suit of autonomous power armor. Furthermore – Scruffy is not slow. It’s always been able to keep up with my commander.

If Taimi’s not in the party, where she has access to the situation, she cannot use her intellect to solve the problems the party ends up in. We’re not strictly an elite combat unit – we’re a fully-rounded adventuring party.

… Then again, telling her “No, you can’t come” may actually work out best for Tyria, depending on how vengeful she is feeling after building an even bigger, stronger golem and killing Kralkatorrik without you.

Really? The lack of long-range two-way communication is the issue?
Forgive me but is she not a prodigy? How out of character would it be if she just invented it.
If she’s not safe inside the suit -she’s safe in let’s say Rata Sum. Or any other safe place. You don’t expect me to believe she lives inside the golem 24/7. So wherever it would be safe to get out would be the place to pilot from.

If you could transport information to and from the golem it would become irrelevant if she was or not inside – she could see and hear and interact via the golem and use her intellect through it.

Jaken.6801:

I wouldn`t go as far calling their goal “empowering” , rather than implementing a broad spectrum of characters of many different origin to show diversity.

And I can’t get enough of it – this multi-race story has been amazing and really done wonders for the franchise. I hope they do more of this in the future.

With Taimi,they went a bit overboard and went with a “traditional” RPG story, that usually doesn`t care for realism.

The problem here is the traditional RPG story works when you can identify with the character of the story – that is to say – when the unrealistically strong/capable/lucky character is you – the player.
If it isn’t you it’s a huge waste of time and people get upset. Look at the hate towards Traherne. Look at the hate towards Kormir.
People accept an unrealistic story only if realism is sacrificed in order to make them feel more awesome.

I mean, how many 14-17 year olds have saved the world in the RPG history.

Exactly – many – and it’s been accepted because they were the player character.

Jaken.6801:

It is not wrong to have these characters, but in a game like Guild Wars, which so far was tending more towards realistic depictions, it is kinda weird.

So you see why I’m upset then.

It would totaly be okay for ther to stand back and maybe learn a bit about drones from the scrappers and have her a hologram following us.
Even the Rata Novus stuff could have happened, with her suddenly being dropped down in Scuffy, via bombardement, her drone being the signal.

Probably better than what we got – I agree.

I don`t dislike Taimi, even though she needs to be cut back and learn her place (and I am talking more about her being written. I don`t think it portrays her as intelligent, the way she is right now. If any she is very impulsive and emotional, completly overestimating her abilities and usefullness. Yes she could help, but that role can be filled by almost every other educated asura)

Pretty much this – as with all obnoxious characters in this story we fist must complain about it a lot then it’ll get toned down (See Marjory and Kasmeer in LS s2 vs HOT).

So yes – I’ll complain about it the hopes we’ll get a decent story with more actually interesting things going on.

Harper.4173:

Pretty much this – as with all obnoxious characters in this story we fist must complain about it a lot then it’ll get toned down (See Marjory and Kasmeer in LS s2 vs HOT).

So yes – I’ll complain about it the hopes we’ll get a decent story with more actually interesting things going on.

I don’t think Majory and Kasmeer were a big problem in LS2.
In fact Majory was toned down in LS2. Going from world greatest detective and leader to someone who stands more in the background, while Kasmeer went forward and more proactive, as a sign of her development.
HoT unfortunatly didn’t build upon these two characters, so the end of LS2 is the end of their story mostly.

I didn’t really think they are obnoxious, as Majory was actually my favourite character in LS1, simply because she got things done, in contrast to the rest of the whole world (I won’t go into the whole Scarlet things again)

Their lovestory is kinda cute and replaying the story it isn’t as annoying as some make it out to be. Yes, they are lesbians, so what? Let them have their moments.

Overall however crizism should isn’t bad and should be voiced, but shouldn’t go overbord and into hate or agression against others (which happens here from time to time) (not directed at the one I quoted). I mean it is just a game.

I really don’t find Taimi harms my immersion in a world with such haphazard lore as GW2 in the first place. In a world where lasers, black powder firearms, and bows and arrows all have the same military utility, the entire plot is built around a series of Deus Ex Machinas, and general nonsense is liberally inserted at every turn simply for visual impact.

What makes GW2 interesting is its characters and how they take the absolute nonsense insanity of the world around them in stride. Taimi is no more immersion breaking, for me, than “Rifle” and “Bow” being equivalent options for ranged warfare, or people in heavy armor dodging all over the place like monkeys on PCP. A world in which an asura with a hammer and a Norn with a hammer of are roughly equivalent combat capability. A world in which people literally bring knives to magical laser gun fights like its just another tuesday. And that’s not a disconnect between player mechanics and lore. That’s literally just NPCS, fully in world, making all these anachronisms.

In all that, it’s not at all unbelivable that some kid builds a hotrod golem and runs all over the jungle just fine, while also being the only special snowflake that can unravel all the science things.

It’s heroic fantasy in the most ridiculous setting. This is not GW1 lore, where ridiculous things were constrained and the the world made an attempt at being belivable in the first place. This is GW2, where giant steampunk tanks and magic-powered laser guns find catapults threatening, and a jungle that took down a fleet of airships in a matter of seconds doesn’t immediately crush everyone that sets foot inside it.

If your argument is immersion, you’re already playing the wrong game. GW2 requires ridiculous levels of suspension of disbelief to be in any way immersive in the first place. The only consistancy is that the people in the world actually treat its ridiculous internal logic like it makes sense and behave accordingly. If not for the characters, GW2’s world is a laughable funhouse mash of up fantasy and science fiction tropes for no other purpose than visual spectacle.

PopeUrban.2578:

I really don’t find Taimi harms my immersion in a world with such haphazard lore as GW2 in the first place. In a world where lasers, black powder firearms, and bows and arrows all have the same military utility, the entire plot is built around a series of Deus Ex Machinas, and general nonsense is liberally inserted at every turn simply for visual impact.

What makes GW2 interesting is its characters and how they take the absolute nonsense insanity of the world around them in stride. Taimi is no more immersion breaking, for me, than “Rifle” and “Bow” being equivalent options for ranged warfare, or people in heavy armor dodging all over the place like monkeys on PCP. A world in which an asura with a hammer and a Norn with a hammer of are roughly equivalent combat capability. A world in which people literally bring knives to magical laser gun fights like its just another tuesday. And that’s not a disconnect between player mechanics and lore. That’s literally just NPCS, fully in world, making all these anachronisms.

In all that, it’s not at all unbelivable that some kid builds a hotrod golem and runs all over the jungle just fine, while also being the only special snowflake that can unravel all the science things.

It’s heroic fantasy in the most ridiculous setting. This is not GW1 lore, where ridiculous things were constrained and the the world made an attempt at being belivable in the first place. This is GW2, where giant steampunk tanks and magic-powered laser guns find catapults threatening, and a jungle that took down a fleet of airships in a matter of seconds doesn’t immediately crush everyone that sets foot inside it.

If your argument is immersion, you’re already playing the wrong game. GW2 requires ridiculous levels of suspension of disbelief to be in any way immersive in the first place. The only consistancy is that the people in the world actually treat its ridiculous internal logic like it makes sense and behave accordingly. If not for the characters, GW2’s world is a laughable funhouse mash of up fantasy and science fiction tropes for no other purpose than visual spectacle.

However what you are describing is supsension of disbelief.

Even if it is ridiculus, there is still something that makes sense. There is a line to follow.
Things are able to be explained.
Your tank example completly ignores the fact that this is still a magical world and a catapult can be charged magicaly, or throw explosives.
If everyone might be able to wield magic, they way you attack them doesn’t matter as much, if you always have to expect some kind of negating skill.

Like in stargate where there were shields that were blocking high velocity attacks like gunfire, but allowed passing of normal movement for obvious reasosn.
Thus a close combat knife attack is more suitable (I think that also the case in dune)

This is a game narrative, so even more things are simplified and won’t work like in real life.

However it is a narrative none the less, they want to tell a story and if things contradict too much or are too absurd, it crumbles. A child in a supposed highly dangerous area is such a thing.

It is believeable that the fleet is shot down as the biggest thread, but the few survivors are left to fight on their own. Even big organism usually focus on the biggest thread. There is a certain logic behind it.

If we kill an ants nest, we don’t go after all suvivors.

The thing is that her hot rod golem isn’t as capable as any other character in the group.

We can suspend our disbelieve for many other things, but not if they are clearly shown as false.

The golem is not able to jump. He isn’t able to teleport. He has no stealth module.
He doesn’t have anything that would help him survive, like all other characters would.

Jumping or Gliding, a skill neccessary (told us right at the start of HoT) to go quick through the jungle? Nope. Taimi would have to walk the long and hard way.

Again, I don’t mind Taimi. I don’t like her devalueing the supposed danger that should be around us.

Pact survivors are highly trained and the few we see, might jsut be a fraction of everyone else. They are either in high allert, fortified around save areas, have just crashlanded (depending on the screwed timeline), are on the outscirts and the fight at the end is not fought by us alone, but witht he help of others we found along the way.

this is my 2 cents of Taimi:
if we the heroes accepts her suggestions in solving some issues, we the heroes have to be strong enough to accept her decision making as her own alone.
I mean, we cannot consider her mature enough to help us and than not mature enough to help herself

PopeUrban.2578:

I really don’t find Taimi harms my immersion in a world with such haphazard lore as GW2 in the first place. In a world where lasers, black powder firearms, and bows and arrows all have the same military utility, the entire plot is built around a series of Deus Ex Machinas, and general nonsense is liberally inserted at every turn simply for visual impact.

What makes GW2 interesting is its characters and how they take the absolute nonsense insanity of the world around them in stride. Taimi is no more immersion breaking, for me, than “Rifle” and “Bow” being equivalent options for ranged warfare, or people in heavy armor dodging all over the place like monkeys on PCP. A world in which an asura with a hammer and a Norn with a hammer of are roughly equivalent combat capability. A world in which people literally bring knives to magical laser gun fights like its just another tuesday. And that’s not a disconnect between player mechanics and lore. That’s literally just NPCS, fully in world, making all these anachronisms.

In all that, it’s not at all unbelivable that some kid builds a hotrod golem and runs all over the jungle just fine, while also being the only special snowflake that can unravel all the science things.

It’s heroic fantasy in the most ridiculous setting. This is not GW1 lore, where ridiculous things were constrained and the the world made an attempt at being belivable in the first place. This is GW2, where giant steampunk tanks and magic-powered laser guns find catapults threatening, and a jungle that took down a fleet of airships in a matter of seconds doesn’t immediately crush everyone that sets foot inside it.

If your argument is immersion, you’re already playing the wrong game. GW2 requires ridiculous levels of suspension of disbelief to be in any way immersive in the first place. The only consistancy is that the people in the world actually treat its ridiculous internal logic like it makes sense and behave accordingly. If not for the characters, GW2’s world is a laughable funhouse mash of up fantasy and science fiction tropes for no other purpose than visual spectacle.

You’re actually right – GW2 went so wrong with the lore it’s not even funny.
RIP the old GW1 days when the game’s universe and atmosphere wasn’t a complete joke.

Somehow – the things you’ve stated aren’t bothering me – because they’re not really ‘in your face" 24/7. They’re not loud ( they’re not a character – they don’t speak) so you can just sort of let them slide.
Taimi ( just like all of DE 2.0) is in your face – she’s there, she talks, she does stuff and honestly that part annoys me.

As a side-note – I had a feeling GW2 lore would go full trash as soon as they announced the engineer class – somehow I knew the moment they made the step to firearms would be the moment everything goes belly up.

Still – it could have been mitigated, salvaged – but they just decided to “lol omg let’s just do whatever kk lol”.
That aside – I doubt many of GW2’s players even care – I’ve been in very hardcore raid groups ( supposedly hardcore raiders should be very invested in the game) that didn’t even know who Matthias was, why he’s there and why you fight him.

We should keep in mind that story instances and open world events go hand in hand as the instanced missions precede the meta events chronologically: in other words, one needs to play through both to understand all of the story. By this point in the narrative, Taimi is no longer alone in the Rata Novus area (although she’s deeper in than others) as the Rata Novus lane events in Tangled Depths show how Agent Zildi and the Order of Whispers reactivate the city’s defenses and keep the chak at bay. We should hopefully hear an offhand reference to this once we revisit Rata Novus in Season 3 (or even better, see Zildi herself or her brother in a story instance). Not to mention the chak gerents and crowns have been beaten by the Pact in canon, so the chak should be in disarray and less of a threat to our reconnaissance forces for the time being.

I don’t mind Taimi coming along with us in her golem as we have enough technobabble explaining/alluding to how the golem can keep up with us in the jungle. The golem keeps Taimi safe, and her smarts allow her to aid us in our mission, so it’s natural for the Pact Commander to weigh the two options and choose to take her along despite the dangers they may face. Granted, the PC could’ve considered other asura over her, but the story wants us to care for Taimi, and the PC has come to trust her as part of the team, so it’s not too difficult to imagine that under the circumstances the PC chose the one he/she has been working along over others, especially when time was growing short and those other experienced asura were needed to handle Pact operations while the PC went deeper into the jungle.

What I found problematic with Taimi (and Braham to an extent too although at least he got properly chewed out for his rash actions) in the context of the story, however, was how she and Braham undermined the Pact Commander’s authority by doing things on their own without being ordered to. As any drill instructor would tell you, in war it’s imperative to follow the orders of your commanding officer and not head out solo as the latter action may jeopardize the entire team during the mission (e.g. letting enemy scouts see you and alert the main enemy force to your or your allies’ location, or even have said enemies separate you from the rest of the team and thus hindering the team as they either lose you to the enemy or have to spend valuable time searching for/rescuing you, which could get you all killed). The fact that Taimi doesn’t seem to understand this fact (and yes, she’s a teenager with little experience in the army, but she should still be smart enough to understand the danger she’s put everyone and most importantly herself in especially after her dangerous encounter with the Inquest in Season 2) and that the PC doesn’t seem to reprimand her that much for such an action paint the PC as being too lenient, IMHO.

I can only hope that Taimi will become more responsible and more mature from this point onward and that neither she nor Braham (both of whom suffered losses in this campaign, which should make them grow as characters based on the hints we’ve seen) will undermine the PC’s authority with such stunts again as long as they’re part of this new Destiny’s Edge. Likewise the PC needs to man (or woman) up and understand that as nice as being all chummy with your pals can be, there’s a reason why commanding officers have to be harsh to their subordinates while on a mission. Orders have to be followed as ignoring such could spell doom to the entire team and have the team potentially fail the mission even if the PC might provide over 70% of the firepower of the entire team.

With that said, I do look forward to seeing more of Taimi (and potentially the new version of the golem) in Season 3 and find out what information she’s discovered during her stay in Rata Novus. Hopefully the writers will use this opportunity to give us at least off-hand remarks to how the Rata Novans discovered that the dragons had unique weaknesses to soften the blows the narrative took in HoT prime.

Harper.4173:

One problem people keep bringing up is that “oh this is fantasy – everything is cool and totally fine” – no.
Just because the game is set in a fantasy setting doesn’t mean anything can happen and we’ll be happy and just roll with it because " eh it’s fantasy man let it go".

No. You simply have an issue with the character and are trying to find ways to negate the argument that this is fantasy, which is an excellent argument.

By definition:
fantasy
?fant?si,-zi/
noun
noun: fantasy

1.
the faculty or activity of imagining impossible or improbable things.
“his researches had moved into the realms of fantasy”
synonyms: imagination, creativity, fancy, invention, originality, vision, speculation, make-believe, daydreaming, reverie
“the movie is ambitious in its mix of fantasy and realism”

So… “…imagining impossible or improbable things”.

There is no allowance for ‘blurring’ when it comes to fantasy and realism, something is either fantasy or its real. If you want to play realistic games, go play War Online or something because this game is fantasy where anything is possible. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be able to die over and over, dragons wouldn’t exist and there’d be little lore.

Sadly too, a child on the battlefield (even though Taimi isn’t really a child) is very real in some war-stricken countries.

You are entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to this argument, there is only one fact: it is fantasy and Taimi fits fine with that.

Jaken.6801:

However it is a narrative none the less, they want to tell a story and if things contradict too much or are too absurd, it crumbles. A child in a supposed highly dangerous area is such a thing.

Why?

When we take in to account that child is:

• A member of a race codified as being composed of the finest intellects in the world
• An exemplary intellect even by her own race’s standards
• Has used that exemplary intellect to design and pilot an one of a kind piece of military hardware
• Has done all of this within the context of a world with the same “but magic equalizes things”

Why, all of a sudden does the appearance and success of one child seem so out of place? Do the Asura, as a race, seem out of place? They have the same advantages and disadvantages in the context of the world as Taimi does on a macroscopic scale. All of their military power is attributed to “Magitech” that allows them to leverage intellect in to offensive and defensive strength. Just like Taimi does. Taimi is simply the Asura ideal turned up to eleven, just like all of the other heroic main characters.

Marjory and Kasmeer are determined and tenacious despite bad circumstances. They’re humans.

Braham is headstrong and foolhardy, yet his impressive physical prowess covers for this weakness. He’s a Norn

Rox is a force of nature through a combination of physical ability and years of military discipline despite being emotionally stunted. She’s a Charr

In fact, the only character that really breaks form is Canach. The only reason he breaks form is to contrast Caithe, who is devoted to the mother tree, inquisitive, and holds dear the tenants of ventari. You know. A Sylvari.

In all that what defines these characters is how they cope with their weaknesses, not how they leverage their strengths. Braham learns to temper his pig-headedness. Rox learns to show emotional vulnerability and make friends. Canach and Caithe learn the value of independance and personal responsibility. Marjory and Kas… well the whole “we’re lesbians” thing took over their plot arc because it’s hard to write a race in a plot hook of ’we just get our butts kicked a lot" without literally making them just boring unstoppable kittenes.

Taimi IS asura. In fact she’s the MOST Asuran character in the game. That’s why she belongs, what makes her fun, and what makes her memorable.

It’s okay to not like a character because of what they represent, but making the “immersion” or “logic” argument in GW2 is just folly. It’s not because “It’s just magic so everything is OK” as much as it is that “It’s magic so the rules are extremely flexible.”

Taimi doesn’t even bend the rules all that much. Certainly far less than Canach, Eir’s fate, the convenient circumstances of the last HoT story mission, the central concept of Glint’s egg, and a host of other things more narratively problematic.

It’s all nonsense to one degree or another. It’s okay to not like some of the nonsense on a personal level. However, the idea that there’s some objective argument against Taimi rather than subjective dislike of the character doesn’t really hold any ground when you really look at the world and its story with a critical eye at this point in the franchise.

I don’t WANT Taimi to be “more reasonable” I wat her to live up to the hyper-asura she IS. I want her to design Scruffy 2.0 as a walking nuclear bomb that teabags dragons two at a time because it makes sense for the character, and more importantly, because the way she approaches these great inventions with a typical asuran disregard for safety and overestimation of her own capabilities creates entertaining stories and fun context for gameplay. That context makes her NEED our player character and other NPCs as much as we NEED her.

PopeUrban.2578:

Jaken.6801:

However it is a narrative none the less, they want to tell a story and if things contradict too much or are too absurd, it crumbles. A child in a supposed highly dangerous area is such a thing.

Why?

When we take in to account that child is:

• A member of a race codified as being composed of the finest intellects in the world
• An exemplary intellect even by her own race’s standards
• Has used that exemplary intellect to design and pilot an one of a kind piece of military hardware
• Has done all of this within the context of a world with the same “but magic equalizes things”

Why, all of a sudden does the appearance and success of one child seem so out of place? Do the Asura, as a race, seem out of place? They have the same advantages and disadvantages in the context of the world as Taimi does on a macroscopic scale. All of their military power is attributed to “Magitech” that allows them to leverage intellect in to offensive and defensive strength. Just like Taimi does. Taimi is simply the Asura ideal turned up to eleven, just like all of the other heroic main characters.

Marjory and Kasmeer are determined and tenacious despite bad circumstances. They’re humans.

Braham is headstrong and foolhardy, yet his impressive physical prowess covers for this weakness. He’s a Norn

Rox is a force of nature through a combination of physical ability and years of military discipline despite being emotionally stunted. She’s a Charr

In fact, the only character that really breaks form is Canach. The only reason he breaks form is to contrast Caithe, who is devoted to the mother tree, inquisitive, and holds dear the tenants of ventari. You know. A Sylvari.

In all that what defines these characters is how they cope with their weaknesses, not how they leverage their strengths. Braham learns to temper his pig-headedness. Rox learns to show emotional vulnerability and make friends. Canach and Caithe learn the value of independance and personal responsibility. Marjory and Kas… well the whole “we’re lesbians” thing took over their plot arc because it’s hard to write a race in a plot hook of ’we just get our butts kicked a lot" without literally making them just boring unstoppable kittenes.

Taimi IS asura. In fact she’s the MOST Asuran character in the game. That’s why she belongs, what makes her fun, and what makes her memorable.

It’s okay to not like a character because of what they represent, but making the “immersion” or “logic” argument in GW2 is just folly. It’s not because “It’s just magic so everything is OK” as much as it is that “It’s magic so the rules are extremely flexible.”

Taimi doesn’t even bend the rules all that much. Certainly far less than Canach, Eir’s fate, the convenient circumstances of the last HoT story mission, the central concept of Glint’s egg, and a host of other things more narratively problematic.

It’s all nonsense to one degree or another. It’s okay to not like some of the nonsense on a personal level. However, the idea that there’s some objective argument against Taimi rather than subjective dislike of the character doesn’t really hold any ground when you really look at the world and its story with a critical eye at this point in the franchise.

I don’t WANT Taimi to be “more reasonable” I wat her to live up to the hyper-asura she IS. I want her to design Scruffy 2.0 as a walking nuclear bomb that teabags dragons two at a time because it makes sense for the character, and more importantly, because the way she approaches these great inventions with a typical asuran disregard for safety and overestimation of her own capabilities creates entertaining stories and fun context for gameplay. That context makes her NEED our player character and other NPCs as much as we NEED her.

Here is the thing, though.
I don’t mind Taimi.

It is just that her being able to get that far just isn’t feesable to me.

The one of a kind golem she is appearently controling just doesn’t display the abilites that would be needed to traverse the jungle as fast as the story is supposed to go.

In the story the heroes do a b-line (mostly) towards their objective and that doesn’t mean they traverse the road on the ground, but going to places where you have to things like jumping or gliding.

Yet in no circumstances they have the golem display these abilities.

In fact instead of giving the golem the usual teleportation effect and ability they clearly show him just popping up beside or in front of you, when there is a gap.
This is shown a few times straight in rata novus.

If this was an ability of any kind, then they would have shown it, because I don’t think Scruffy is a mesmer and able to blink (but even that does have an effect)

So my simple problem with the whole szenario isn’t Taimi directly. It rather is the way they get her there.

The one of a kind ley line golem Scruffy just doesn’t show more abilities then the regular golems around, thus making him slow and not suited to traverse the jungle at the pace the story might want.
It is even more suprising if we put the Chak into acount, which feast on Ley Line energy and to get to Rata Novus you might get in contact with them (or be a great bait for them with your walking ley line energy battery, at least I think that is what Taimi said. That Scruffy is either able to channel or use Ley Line energy now).

I wouldn’t let Steven Hawking in the jungle. It doesn’t matter how intelligent he is. He would slow the group down. Even with a tank-style wheelchair. As long as it isn’t able to have some kind of gliding or flying ability he would get into trouble at some point.

However steven would have it easier.

So yeah, my problem is actually more around Scruffy than Taimi. The big hunk of metal, which glows, possibly attract enemies (though Rytlocks sowrd might do the same) and isn’t really as mobile.

In my opionion Scruffe needs some updates, to get around a bit better. Even if it just them adding a telportation effect, when he crosses gaps (though him transoforming to suit the situation would also be interesting.)

I wonder if Asura really worry about Taimi being a kid like other races would. As a human, a child on the battlefield is just absurd, because “Mah babehs!” It’s a natural response to make us invest in raising our young. But do Asura have that kind of emotional attachment? I mean, I’m sure the asura would much rather send adults into the world and afford at least some protection for their children, but to what degree? Maybe to the Asura, Taimi being a kid in danger is just “mildly upsetting” but logically feasible given her ability (and killer robot). Is there any information on that? I noticed they tend to call their young “progeny”, which is a pretty cold and un-affectionate word for a child. Even the Charr, who make it a tradition to send their kids into war units, affectionately call their young “kits”. But I don’t know if that’s really any kind of evidence of a lack of caring about children.

As for why the other Biconics are perfectly fine with a sickly child coming to battle with them, I don’t know. I guess it’s just something they had to accept begrudgingly.

Jaken.6801:

Here is the thing, though.
I don’t mind Taimi.

It is just that her being able to get that far just isn’t feesable to me.

The one of a kind golem she is appearently controling just doesn’t display the abilites that would be needed to traverse the jungle as fast as the story is supposed to go.

In the story the heroes do a b-line (mostly) towards their objective and that doesn’t mean they traverse the road on the ground, but going to places where you have to things like jumping or gliding.

Erm… we don’t see any of them gliding do we? I may be wrong on that. Fantasy… I don’t care if people are sick of me saying that because the meaning of fantasy still equates to Taimi fitting as a character perfectly fine in these storylines, along with Scruffy. People who are realistic in nature perhaps have a hard time imagining the unimaginable and that will be the bigger problem, not Taimi.

Also, a lot of people have said that their problem is that they don’t ‘choose’ to have her along with them and as commanders of the pact they should decide who they take. Well, we don’t choose to take any of the guys who end up on our side. I 100% did not choose to have Trahearne babbling in my ear all the way through any of the stories :P

Jaken.6801:

Yet in no circumstances they have the golem display these abilities.

In fact instead of giving the golem the usual teleportation effect and ability they clearly show him just popping up beside or in front of you, when there is a gap.
This is shown a few times straight in rata novus.

All of them do that LOL.

Jaken.6801:

If this was an ability of any kind, then they would have shown it, because I don’t think Scruffy is a mesmer and able to blink (but even that does have an effect)

Taimi controls the golem, doesn’t she? Have we ever seen any of our allies’ abilities, properly? So maybe Scruffy does glide, we just don’t see it.

Jaken.6801:

So my simple problem with the whole szenario isn’t Taimi directly. It rather is the way they get her there.

Again, it’s the same for the rest of the team.

Jaken.6801:

The one of a kind ley line golem Scruffy just doesn’t show more abilities then the regular golems around, thus making him slow and not suited to traverse the jungle at the pace the story might want.

Do you have proof of this? No. He’s there, Taimi controls him, its magic, skills, whatever, he’s there. End of.

Jaken.6801:

I wouldn’t let Steven Hawking in the jungle. It doesn’t matter how intelligent he is. He would slow the group down. Even with a tank-style wheelchair. As long as it isn’t able to have some kind of gliding or flying ability he would get into trouble at some point.

Luckily that’s not your decision to make. He is accutely more disabled than Taimi, and doesn’t have a huge awesome golem on his side that can be adapted for probably any situation through Taimi’s intelligence to update his programming (probably) and erm oh yeh, magic.

I think I died way more than Taimi or Scruffy during some of the Mordremoth fights. :P LOL

[Edit] Also, to just add, if people are going to talk ‘real’, in WW2 women weren’t ‘allowed’ to be on the battlefield yet they were instrumental in other ways. My Nanna for example worked for the fire service during the war and made a huge impact. Just because you wouldn’t want to take Steven Hawking into the jungle doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be absolutely vital in other ways. But GW2 isn’t ‘real’ so meh.

Celine.6857:

-snip-

Okay, I agree we don’t see the NPC use gliding, but we get one right at start (never shown) and it is implied to be part of the equipment, thus I expect everyone to get one as standart issue (and since DE2.0 is part of my group, if I get one, they get one as well).

As far as I know Golems can’t jump. Transforming into a Golem usually doesn’t allow you to jump.
I don’t think gliding is possible, but I actually didn’t test that.
Then again, I don’t know if tonic transformations are a valid compairson.

Scruffy doesn’t displayed more abilities then your run of the mill golem. Yes he had an unique design, apearently an armor upgrade and a ley line affinity, but that mostly makes him more durable.

A great thing usually. He might survive more.
The thing i am more concerned with, however, is his ability to traverse the terain in the same manner, the rest of the group is.
Which he isn’t and if we see him, it is usually through cheating . As no real ability is displayed (As in any effect being show, like with every other character)

All other group members are able to jump for example, as it is part of their nature.
Golems so far did not display that ability and the only way we saw them get airborn is by blowing them up or use them as bombardement.

There are golems who can fly, but these are rare and so far Scruffy didn’t display that ability (and won’t at this time, till we see Scruffy 2.0)

As for your comment about fantasy.
Sure you can go with the it’s magic, shut up argument, but even fantasy has rules.
It has nothing to do with with the unthinkable or unimaginative.

it is a question of consistency.
I accept a world where magical golems, who are made mostly of stones, crystals and magic do exist.

I don’t accept it so easy if said golem abilities are on display all around the world and thus their limits are known.

If Taimi had outfitted her golem with some special abilities like teleporting, gliding or the simple ability to jump, then it would have been on display in some form.

The only mention of special upgrade however is her ley line and armor plating upgrades, nothing more.

Also, I clearly said it is okay for Taimi to be there, if said requirements are fullfilled.
Like a simple teleportation effect, when Scruffy appears out of nowhere when he jumps a gap.

Right now it isn’t the case, so thank you for missing my point.

Oh and yes, steven hawking would be helpful in some way, i never doubt that… but he still has to traverse the jungle. As the problem is still with the tech and not with the person.

Jaken.6801:

As far as I know Golems can’t jump. Transforming into a Golem usually doesn’t allow you to jump.
I don’t think gliding is possible, but I actually didn’t test that.
Then again, I don’t know if tonic transformations are a valid compairson.

LOL like it… its funny, I can glide as a quaggan, skritt burglar etc… not sure about a golem. But that made me giggle As for your comment though about golems can’t jump… as a ‘rule’ I’m unsure yeh, although there is a personal story quest in Mount Maelstrom where we are turned into golem suits and we can jump a fair way lol…

Jaken.6801:

Scruffy doesn’t displayed more abilities then your run of the mill golem.

Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have special abilities though.

Jaken.6801:

A great thing usually. He might survive more.
The thing i am more concerned with, however, is his ability to traverse the terain in the same manner, the rest of the group is.
Which he isn’t and if we see him, it is usually through cheating . As no real ability is displayed (As in any effect being show, like with every other character)

Do you say the same for ranger pets, necro minions and so on? Because they do the exact same thing.

Jaken.6801:

As for your comment about fantasy.
Sure you can go with the it’s magic, shut up argument, but even fantasy has rules.
It has nothing to do with with the unthinkable or unimaginative.

I can not disagree more. Fantasy is imagining the unimaginable. There are zero rules when it comes to imaginative, creative thinking. Give me some legitimate ‘rules’ of fantasy…

Jaken.6801:

it is a question of consistency.

In a dynamic world where things are always changing you think there should be consistency? We have had to adapt to the maguuma with new masteries and skills (elite specs). This is progress as we all, including machines and golems I am sure adapt to ever increasing demands for change. Maybe I misunderstand….

Jaken.6801:

If Taimi had outfitted her golem with some special abilities like teleporting, gliding or the simple ability to jump, then it would have been on display in some form.

Again, why, when we don’t see the others do any of these things in the same way?

Jaken.6801:

Also, I clearly said it is okay for Taimi to be there, if said requirements are fullfilled.
Right now it isn’t the case, so thank you for missing my point.

Sorry, not sure which bit of my post you’re commenting on. I was simply talking about others’ views of her being there. I realize your issue is with her golem for some reason lol.

Jaken.6801:

Oh and yes, steven hawking would be helpful in some way, i never doubt that… but he still has to traverse the jungle. As the problem is still with the tech and not with the person.

He may not have to traverse the jungle, he could use technology, for example by use of holograms: Elli for example fights through her hologram, and also Taimi used holograms during the HoT story to be of assistance.

It really genuinely is down to imagination and what you let yourself believe, and when it comes to GW2, anything is possible especially when I, as an asura can activate my racial golem skill, get crippled, hobble to the edge of a cliff, glide down and have my golem suddenly appear next to me ready to defend or fight. Yay! \o/

Harper.4173:

Sartharina.3542:

Jaken.6801:

PopeUrban.2578:

- snip-

Yes, it is great for the narrative, bad for the immersion.

A fragile being, still able to proove herself in an harsh enviroment, even though no one really accepted her before. Belittled her even.
Now, just because she pushed, bullied and fought her way through, she can show off her skills.

True, a very touching story.

Till we talk about immersion and how she could easily stayed back right in the silverwastes with her new mentor and come after them with a team and give them support from the back.
We could meet her, after we established footholds throughout the jungle.

I mean, this is the territory of Mordremoth where almost everything wants to kill us and we have to traverse by gliders most of the time to get through.

By the logic of the story it means we went by foot everywhere, only because Taimi had to ride her Golem.

It is very convinient, that the story only shows how she is with us at the crucial points, but not how everyone has to wait for her to catch up or how we have to go the more dangerous routes, just because she is disabled and thus not able to follow as fast.

The Golem is a slow tank and we are sourounded by danger. Danger that is easily able to crack it open and feast on the little Asura.

Then we are in a hurry, run against the time and for some reason are still able to wait for her.

Yes, she has her pro’s, but for this enviroment, her con’s are just not fitting.

Scruffy would need a tank and glider mode, to be able to keep up here.
he would need to be able to disguise, or cloak himself.

he is a big shiny golem and while we have a Charr with a flaming sword, I bet even he is able to dim it in case they need to hide from enemies.

Simply put: very dangerous enviroment, a race against time and a little disabled child who wants to be taken seriously just doesn’t mix well

She has no reason to be there, aside from thte fact that she wants to help.
Okay, I go around every Kindergarden and tell them about the beauty of warfare and how they can help on the frontlines.
I go ahead and ask them if they would enlist right now. How many do you think would do that?
How many people would tell me I am crazy to do that?

Why? Because the general idea is that children shouldn’t be on the battlefield.

I am aware that these are dire times and these are not compairable with our modern times and more likely to things happening in Afghanistan where child soldiers are a thing (because of the dire circumstances), but even they prefer the healthy.

From what I’ve seen so far, Scruffy’s just as hard to crack open as any other member of the party. If it can kill Taimi in Scruffy, then it can kill anyone else. So unless you think some dying kid’s life is more important than any of the other’s, it’s irrelevant.

And a remote-controlled golem WOULDN’T be the same, because I don’t think Taimi has rapid long-range two-way communication – and having Taimi close enough for her to control a remote golem effectively puts her close enough to be in danger, and if it’s remote, it means Taimi is NOT safe inside a suit of autonomous power armor. Furthermore – Scruffy is not slow. It’s always been able to keep up with my commander.

If Taimi’s not in the party, where she has access to the situation, she cannot use her intellect to solve the problems the party ends up in. We’re not strictly an elite combat unit – we’re a fully-rounded adventuring party.

… Then again, telling her “No, you can’t come” may actually work out best for Tyria, depending on how vengeful she is feeling after building an even bigger, stronger golem and killing Kralkatorrik without you.

Really? The lack of long-range two-way communication is the issue?
Forgive me but is she not a prodigy? How out of character would it be if she just invented it.
If she’s not safe inside the suit -she’s safe in let’s say Rata Sum. Or any other safe place. You don’t expect me to believe she lives inside the golem 24/7. So wherever it would be safe to get out would be the place to pilot from.

If you could transport information to and from the golem it would become irrelevant if she was or not inside – she could see and hear and interact via the golem and use her intellect through it.

The thing is… given the story so far, long-range two-way communication like this would probably require tapping into the Ley Lines to use. It would be a great technology to use once the world’s ley-lines aren’t compromised by dragons. While, thanks to the events of LS 2, she’s managed to hide the Asura waypoint network to beneath Mordremoth’s notice… but they weren’t really an active threat to him and his forces anyway. Just juicy targets. Mordremoth is the dragon with “Mind” as one of his aspects, and while the party’s in the Heart of Maguuma, you can bet he has his attention as firmly on the party as possible – but learns over and over that attacking the Pact Commander isn’t cost-effective. But the moment Taimi steps away from the party, and sends a ley-line connection to it, no matter how faint, we have an uprotected Asura child – And not just any Asura child, but the leading expert on Ley Line magic and Mordremoth in the world. Sure, another, adult Asura could probably fill her shoes – but it would take weeks if not months of going over her note to get them caught up to speed – Time they don’t have.

So, the real reason Taimi is travelling with us in the jungle instead of using remote communication from “If Mordremoth can attack the Mother Tree in the Grove, he can attack us anywhere!” Taimi needs to be able to contribute because she’s the most knowledgeable on the situation. She also needs to be kept safe. And, as we learn throughout LS2 and HoT, the only safe place for ANYONE is Right Beside the Commander (No, not just on the other side of the wall, Belinda.)

The only thing that really bothers me about the story is the character of the commander, and so few options for character development and expression for said commander (It’s worst as a charr, I think.)

Celine.6857:

-snip-

Fantasy vs. story
Yes, fantasy as the name implies is imagine the unthinkable, etc. .
The thing it, we aren’t talking about fantasy alone, but in a story constuct.

A story needs some kind of consistency. There are always some rules and even if they are unrealistic , they are established at some point throughout the story, or else the reader screams DeusEx Machina.

The more of a story is told, be it fantasy or not, it becomes clearer what is possible and what not in a certain context.

Almost every fantasy story implies rules of what is pussible and what not. How great magic always require some sort of sacrifce. That nothing happens just because you want it to, but because you fullfilled the requirements in this fantasy world.
These are rules. These are boundries. These are limits.

There is a reason why something like willpower is often used as something to messure ones strenght in these kinds of szenarios where people just make things up.

GW2 has the mists which is discribed as a space where everything is possible, yet there are rules to it. Like the fractals kittenet themselves.

Going by lol it’s magic or it’s just a fantasy story isn’t enough to point out inconsistencies.

It is okay if these things happen, mind you, it is part of the fantasy alure. However some kind of explanation needs to happen, so the story makes sense.
Not the fantasy.

Like this:
You fight a giant monster, you are down for the count, but then you take a bag of magic dust out of your bag and it becomes a leaf of gras.

The magic dust was never established and you never told anyone that you have it.

Yes, the reader could come to his own conclusions now, since it could have happened ofscreen, but he will never be sure.

Now looking at taimi, she has a very defined golem. His abilities are clear and when he is about to use abilites outside his realm it is the game cheating and not the golems abilities being revealed.

Again, I accept that the golem could be there. However we aren’t shown how and there are good reasons against it (which can easily be debunked, which I also said). Thus it creates a break of immersion.
It’s not that big of a problem actually, but it still has some validity.

Transformations and gliding
I allready said that it isn’t really established what nature transformations are. How they really work.
The fact that msot of them don’t show the abilities of what they are supposed to be displays a great deal of inconsisty anyway.
I just put it up as another point, nothing more.

That being said. Have you seen a golem jump who isn’t a player?
Weren’t we these little golems in mount malestrom?
Again, some inconsitency, thus questionable again.

Consistency
I mean consistency in the whole world. We have seen certain things, which outline possibilities and limits of this world.
If something new happens, it should be handled as such.

Yes the world is changing, but it should be aknowledged in some form. Though I am aware that GW2 is lacking in that department from time to time.
I mean, they litteraly give you the glider in an throw away sentence and you imediatly got it and understand it.

Oh and speaking of masteries, don’t even start. These are just sad in a lore context. For a game that went out of their way to establish completly new alphabet on several occasions and not doing the same for three races, we should learn to understand is kinda sad.
A cool cultural experience dumbed down to gating and a very simple gamemechanic.

Steven Taimi Hawking
Ah yes, a hologram. Why didn’t Taimi think of it? She would be more suitable to use it, then him, right now, though.
He would propably use some kind of drone.

Why might he not have to traverse the jungle and yet Taimi needs to?
Again it is a matter of tech, not the person, as they both might be useful, or not.
I would chuckle if there wasn’t an asura city throughout the story and Taimi would end up just being there and “annoying” (she isn’t all the time. i like her, but sometimes…)

You point out one interesting thing, though: racial golem summon. They also pop up, explode around you or somehow fly in.
Again not expained, but it happens.

I accept it as a game mechanic. There is teleportation magic and asura could run around with a permanent beacon to call them from a central station, but then i ask myself why they break down so easily, or why the usual teleportation effect isn’t shown.

An effect which they use constantly around the world.
I might have to look at this again on my asura.

Jaken.6801:

That being said. Have you seen a golem jump who isn’t a player?

I actually agree with most of your points, but for this one…
Have you ever seen a norn jump who isn’t a player?
An asura?
A human?
It’s not a golem thing. It’s that, mechanically, NPCs are incapable of jumping.

As for the bigger question of whether golems can jump, I see no reason why not. I know they look heavy, but they’re already set up so that everything but their feet is suspended in midair, and they can move that floating bulk at high velocities (Remember the spin attacks?) If there’s any reason they shouldn’t be able to, it’s because their legs aren’t built for it, but Scruffy is more human-like in that regard.

Celine.6857:

Harper.4173:

One problem people keep bringing up is that “oh this is fantasy – everything is cool and totally fine” – no.
Just because the game is set in a fantasy setting doesn’t mean anything can happen and we’ll be happy and just roll with it because " eh it’s fantasy man let it go".

No. You simply have an issue with the character and are trying to find ways to negate the argument that this is fantasy, which is an excellent argument.

By definition:
fantasy
?fant?si,-zi/
noun
noun: fantasy

1.
the faculty or activity of imagining impossible or improbable things.
“his researches had moved into the realms of fantasy”
synonyms: imagination, creativity, fancy, invention, originality, vision, speculation, make-believe, daydreaming, reverie
“the movie is ambitious in its mix of fantasy and realism”

So… “…imagining impossible or improbable things”.

There is no allowance for ‘blurring’ when it comes to fantasy and realism, something is either fantasy or its real. If you want to play realistic games, go play War Online or something because this game is fantasy where anything is possible. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be able to die over and over, dragons wouldn’t exist and there’d be little lore.

Sadly too, a child on the battlefield (even though Taimi isn’t really a child) is very real in some war-stricken countries.

You are entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to this argument, there is only one fact: it is fantasy and Taimi fits fine with that.

You’re so wrong it hurts.
“There is no allowance for ‘blurring’ when it comes to fantasy and realism, something is either fantasy or its real.”

You’re not making the difference between setting and narrative. The setting is one thing – it can be fantastic in its nature but the narrative ( as far as i’m concerned) has to stay realistic.

Is it such a difficult concept to grasp?
I’m trying to explain to you that a fantasy setting doesn’t have to go with the “everything is possible because lol fantasy”. Have you ever encountered more serious fantasy settings? A song of Ice and Fire for example has such a setting – where wacky things to occasionally happen but for 99% of the time people behave realistically – just like they would in the real world ( albeit with some elements changed because there are obvious differences).

You seem to not understand what I’ve been trying to explain – I hope some other poster finds the time to word it better since I’m pretty much at my wit’s end.

I can not disagree more. Fantasy is imagining the unimaginable. There are zero rules when it comes to imaginative, creative thinking. Give me some legitimate ‘rules’ of fantasy…

Yes – but if you go down this rabbit hole consistency goes right out the window.
If there are no rules – there’s no predictability – and without that you can’t really build anything. If you’re going to go with the “power of imagination creative though overcomes all yeah” route then why not have the story go in the direction where they just find a magical pebble – that when thrown kills elder dragons.

It’s fantasy so it works right? Just throw said pebble a few times – or wait – just throw it ONE time because it’s magical and it’ll automatically fly off to the other dragons once it’s killed the one you threw it at initially and kill them too.

Oh – is this plot bad? is the story I’ve written poor? You’re just unimaginative – because this is fantasy.

Now that my example is out of the way can you realize why it’s bad? It’s bad because the narrative has set things up in a certain way (dragons are powerful, dangerous, hard to kill) and the new element I’ve introduced undermines that.
Similarly – having a child on a battlefield ( especially one that’s aloof and cracks bad jokes all the time) undermines the notion that we’re fighting a hard fight pressed by time and undermanned.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Jaken.6801:

That being said. Have you seen a golem jump who isn’t a player?

I actually agree with most of your points, but for this one…
Have you ever seen a norn jump who isn’t a player?
An asura?
A human?
It’s not a golem thing. It’s that, mechanically, NPCs are incapable of jumping.

As for the bigger question of whether golems can jump, I see no reason why not. I know they look heavy, but they’re already set up so that everything but their feet is suspended in midair, and they can move that floating bulk at high velocities (Remember the spin attacks?) If there’s any reason they shouldn’t be able to, it’s because their legs aren’t built for it, but Scruffy is more human-like in that regard.

That’s true.
We unfortunatly don’t see golems or NPC in that regard being able to leave the ground.
They have to follow the ground, which might just be engine limitation.

That’s why I put the “transformation” into an golem in as well. Most of the ones we have, don’t allow us to jump (and some were patched in over the years I think).

Getting into the golem suit for example doesn’t allow you to jump.

Basicly I my therory is mostly based on what we see and experience the most.
Other things are possible, but not shown to us at this moment.

Thats why I said that adding some simple effect here and there, would fix these problems.

However I don’t think these are a priority at the moment.

Jaken.6801:

Celine.6857:

-snip-

Fantasy vs. story

-snip-

LOL, I’m sorry, but the fact I don’t even really understand what on earth you’re on about means you’re literally grasping at straws to make a point even you don’t really fully understand because you know there isn’t actually an argument with this.

Stories, fantasy or otherwise are subject to the writer. They can take it wherever they please. It absolutely does not have to be consistent.

Also, your point was (I think) about Scruffy and his ‘unimaginable’ way of suddenly appearing etc; well I, and others above have already shown that this is ‘consistent’ with other beings in the game so if you argue consistency, at least there is where that is concerned. Thereby, what is actually your point, because you’ve not even addressed how our own pets, minions, and indeed racial golems do the exact same thing.

[Edit] your last post (above) says to me that your actual issue is that you don’t visually see Scruffy doing things. I suggest you use your imagination to fill in these blanks so the devs don’t have to add/change a bunch of things for more than just Scruffy (because once they do it for one, they’ll have to do it for the rest too). As you say, not priority.

Harper.4173:

I can not disagree more. Fantasy is imagining the unimaginable. There are zero rules when it comes to imaginative, creative thinking. Give me some legitimate ‘rules’ of fantasy…

Yes – but if you go down this rabbit hole consistency goes right out the window.
If there are no rules – there’s no predictability – and without that you can’t really build anything.

I don’t want things to be predictable. That’s boring.

Harper.4173:

Now that my example is out of the way can you realize why it’s bad? It’s bad because the narrative has set things up in a certain way (dragons are powerful, dangerous, hard to kill) and the new element I’ve introduced undermines that.
Similarly – having a child on a battlefield ( especially one that’s aloof and cracks bad jokes all the time) undermines the notion that we’re fighting a hard fight pressed by time and undermanned.

I see your point here, but in real war, armies get light relief from, for example entertainers, letters from home… and there will be 100% humour, jokes, camaraderie… Taimi gives us this on the battlefield. There are jokes and funny nuances in story plots too (e.g. James Bond), so why not in GW2?

These things don’t undermine the seriousness of situations….

Only thing that bothered me in the story was how easy the inquest disabled scruffy in that S2 mission “Dragon’s Reach 2” (it would have been way better had Taimi put up some kinda fight before we save her IMO)

Hmmm- alot of food for thought here-
I wonder… As the Pact leader now, keeping a small, seemingly helpless, super intelligent, CHILD under your protection for as long as ‘humanly’ possible…isn’t your reaction (as Pact Leader) to the psychological damage you suffered in “Your greatest fear” story?
Just sayin.
-300 sympathetic Quaggan coos -

I still have the issue with calling her a child though. As several people have explained above, she isn’t actually a child, but not an adult either and is somewhere inbetween.

But when it comes to teens and children in battle, there are plenty of fantasy stories where kids are fighting at the fore-front, and many are also disabled. So, why its a problem for GW2 I’ve no idea :P

An interesting website: http://www.gamesradar.com/10-inspirational-disabled-characters-from-sci-fi-and-fantasy/

Celine.6857:

I still have the issue with calling her a child though. As several people have explained above, she isn’t actually a child, but not an adult either and is somewhere inbetween.

But when it comes to teens and children in battle, there are plenty of fantasy stories where kids are fighting at the fore-front, and many are also disabled. So, why its a problem for GW2 I’ve no idea :P

An interesting website: http://www.gamesradar.com/10-inspirational-disabled-characters-from-sci-fi-and-fantasy/

Yes there are and there is a term for it. Suspension of Disbelief

It doesn’t matter if it as fantasy story or anything, several needs need to be fullfilled.

Again, the thing many people are asking why we still take her along, even if it is counterintuitve for the setting.

Just to make a trope happen. To prove a point. Etc.

If in the real world a unlikely person saves the day the circumstances have to fit. Be at the right time at the right place to be of use.

This is easier in fictional worlds of course, because the writers can make things up.
However they still have to create a szenario that makes sense for the readers, to be accepted.

As you can see, there are people who have an issue with it. As there are people who have no issue with it.

That is how far they go with their supsension of disbelief.

And to be fair the odds aren’t in Taimis favor if we look at the supposed story.

It is supposed to be a very dangerous area, where even the main protagonists are struggling. Where they have to run on several occasions. Where they can only procceed if they are quick on their feet and able to trust and protect each other.

Everyone who isn’t at the top of their game more or less) is seen as a liability or a danger to the mission.

For every fantasy story where a disabled or unlikely hero emerges victorious, how many things needed to happen in his/her favour to make it happen?

Even if he/she is able to counterbalance her shortcomings, how often are these clearly ignored by the danger at hand?

I think you misunderstand the reasons why people are upset. It isn’t something sudden. It something people are able to accept under the right circumstances.

Why do you have a problem with people not accepting her so easily? Even if they give you valid reasons.

It’s clear that a couple of people here have a strong bias against the disabled, regardless of how much they contribute in the real world and in fantasy. Get over it. Disabled people are capable of amazing things. Period.

Jaken.6801:

Why do you have a problem with people not accepting her so easily? Even if they give you valid reasons.

This is a debate and that’s all. No one is dissing anyone’s opinions here, we are all just maturely debating the concept of Taimi as the op first considered, and I completely accept her.

As for (as you put it) ‘valid’ reasons people may have for not accepting her, some reasons may be valid in the ‘real world’ but not here in GW2 in my opinion. Where I am able to use my imagination to accept, and understand Taimi along with whatever magic she may use with or without Scruffy, yours and others’ who have an issue with this character alone, cannot. It’s a simple bias against the character (and indeed possibly the disabled in general, regardless of how influencial I, and others who are disabled can be). They don’t like her, its as simple as that. I hate Trahearne and I’d completely choose to do anything without him. Gladly I killed him so… LOL

But, as people have rightly said, she is very important to us, not least for her knowledge of Ley Energy which is far superior than anyone elses.

Regarding suspension of disbelief, none of what we do in GW2 is real, so you have to give in and suspend your disbelief for anything really in GW2 to make sense.

Interestingly, you’ve not addressed any of my arguments I put forward in response to your last post about Scruffy/Taimi, since again, I believe your issue was over Scruffy!

Celine.6857:

Jaken.6801:

Why do you have a problem with people not accepting her so easily? Even if they give you valid reasons.

This is a debate and that’s all. No one is dissing anyone’s opinions here, we are all just maturely debating the concept of Taimi as the op first considered, and I completely accept her.

As for (as you put it) ‘valid’ reasons people may have for not accepting her, some reasons may be valid in the ‘real world’ but not here in GW2 in my opinion. Where I am able to use my imagination to accept, and understand Taimi along with whatever magic she may use with or without Scruffy, yours and others’ who have an issue with this character alone, cannot. It’s a simple bias against the character (and indeed possibly the disabled in general, regardless of how influencial I, and others who are disabled can be). They don’t like her, its as simple as that. I hate Trahearne and I’d completely choose to do anything without him. Gladly I killed him so… LOL

But, as people have rightly said, she is very important to us, not least for her knowledge of Ley Energy which is far superior than anyone elses.

Regarding suspension of disbelief, none of what we do in GW2 is real, so you have to give in and suspend your disbelief for anything really in GW2 to make sense.

Interestingly, you’ve not addressed any of my arguments I put forward in response to your last post about Scruffy/Taimi, since again, I believe your issue was over Scruffy!

Is she really that needed by us?
Ley Line energy?
has been studied for a longer time than Taimi and was just hidden. Yes she was there as the lid was opened, but we have several sources of research in that matter.

In the tangled depths the Pact had no problem adapting the technology there, even if they saw them for the first time.

So i guess Taimi isn’t as unique as you might think.

Here is the thing. You are saying GW2 is fantasy and as such real world analogy doesn’t apply.

So why is it, that the GW2 world bites back? Why is it that we can find things that just don’t add up, by only using the information the game is giving us? The fantasy world you hold so dear.

It is not like the reasons are only based on real life observations, but on things from the game itself.

Taimi has plot armor. Like everyone else, the story deems worthy as such.

Why is it that you completly ignore when I say, that Taimi could possible be there, but that there are inconsitencies.

I am well aware of why she is there. It is for the story. Romantizising a weak character, who overcomes his disability and shows, that even if the odds are stacked against you, you can pull through.

It is a great story. She is agreat character.
I care about her, that is why I ask these questions.
Why has it to ber her?
Why can’t it be one of the dozens of other Asura we are friends with and have the same or even better experience?

To beginn with, Taimi forced her way into the party. We accepted her because… well actually we don’t have a real reason. Braham adopted her, after being forced to babysit her and then she just tagged along, because why not.
If we hadn’t found something related to Scarlet, which led us to the ley lines, her role in the group would be even more questionable.

That being said there are pros and cons for every partymember and right now we are just following a story. Does it make sense? No.
Why do we accept Canach so easily?
Why do we still keep Braham around?
What happened to Majory, the once only sensible person on the continent (okay, death in the family. It brings every detective down)?
What is the deal with OP Rytlock?
etc.

The story and the world does not make sense in the grand sheme, simply because there are so many things working against each other. It isn’t just a story. It is a game. It has to work on several levels, which often just doesn’t work in its favour.

My example of golems not jumping is something related to how the game works. However since there isn’t much shown to contradict it, it begs the question if it is deliberate and thus part of the worlds story.

We just don’t really know where the game ends and the canon beginns. Thus any argument is viable.

That also adresses your argument with Scruffy. I am fully aware of these things.

And for pets and minions:
Minions are summoned, thus shouldn’t have a problem to be bound close to us and most pets are able to traverse like us or are being magicaly stored, though the latter is more likely a game mechanic.

Again gamemechanic vs worldbuilding. We have to compromise and yes, these things don’t make sense as well.

The thing with the story is, though, that the creators want to make it more cinematic. More immersive, thus it believe it is okay to call them out in fields where they could improve.

In Rata Novus, Scruffy stopps, waits for us to fight off the enemies and then pops up on the other side of the gap.
Add a teleportation effect and it isn’t just a gamemechanic anymore, but established as an ability of Scruffy.

Jaken.6801:

Is she really that needed by us?
Ley Line energy?
has been studied for a longer time than Taimi and was just hidden. Yes she was there as the lid was opened, but we have several sources of research in that matter.

Yes she’s necessary. This has been pointed out by way more people than me in this thread, and the part about Ley Energy was also a big point made by a different person in this thread which was a very compelling reply. Basically that poster had said that Taimi had been the one to study Ley Energy more than any other asura and in doing so, trying to ‘teach’ another asura about all she’d learned for them to take over would be absolutely impossible. She is necessary.

Jaken.6801:

In the tangled depths the Pact had no problem adapting the technology there, even if they saw them for the first time.

So i guess Taimi isn’t as unique as you might think.

I didn’t say she was unique, I was stating how people, disabled or not, adapt – which you didn’t seem to think was possible, but I’m glad you’ve come round :P

Jaken.6801:

Here is the thing. You are saying GW2 is fantasy and as such real world analogy doesn’t apply.

So why is it, that the GW2 world bites back? Why is it that we can find things that just don’t add up, by only using the information the game is giving us? The fantasy world you hold so dear.

Not entirely sure what you mean here. But if you’re asking why can we pick holes in a plot, or misunderstand things, or ask questions… well this would be due to story writing, and us imagining what could be a cause to something. For example, many people had ‘theories’ over Sylvari being actually evil, and then the plot shows those people may be half-right in that they all have ties with Mordremoth. This still is fantasy and we can pick at it, discuss lore, misunderstand things, and imagine all sorts. Doesn’t mean it’s not fantasy.

As for ‘real world’ as I have said before, those who can’t let themselves “suspend their disbeliefs” will ask real life questions to which the fantasy world has no real answer because its make-believe.

Jaken.6801:

Why is it that you completly ignore when I say, that Taimi could possible be there, but that there are inconsitencies.

I’ve not once ignored this. You pointing out supposed ‘inconsistencies’ was the entire reason for my initial responses. You didn’t like the way Scruffy just ‘appeared’, you wanted a visualization of him moving, you didn’t like to imagine ways he may traverse the jungle. I gave responses for this so not quite sure what I’ve ‘ignored’ :P

Jaken.6801:

It is a great story. She is agreat character.
I care about her, that is why I ask these questions.
Why has it to ber her?
Why can’t it be one of the dozens of other Asura we are friends with and have the same or even better experience?

It is her, so let it be. As for actual reasons, (you’re repeating yourself now) I and plenty others have given perfectly legitimate reasons as said above. Its lucky we both like her

Jaken.6801:

That being said there are pros and cons for every partymember and right now we are just following a story. Does it make sense? No.
Why do we accept Canach so easily?
Why do we still keep Braham around?
What happened to Majory, the once only sensible person on the continent (okay, death in the family. It brings every detective down)?
What is the deal with OP Rytlock?
etc.

I guess we may or may not find out. The story is ongoing.

Jaken.6801:

The story and the world does not make sense in the grand sheme, simply because there are so many things working against each other. It isn’t just a story. It is a game. It has to work on several levels, which often just doesn’t work in its favour.

Really quite confused here, sorry. Not sure why the story doesn’t make sense “in the grand scheme” and as for it being a game, lore, stories and game work fine together imho.

Jaken.6801:

And for pets and minions:
Minions are summoned, thus shouldn’t have a problem to be bound close to us and most pets are able to traverse like us or are being magicaly stored, though the latter is more likely a game mechanic.

So, you don’t see Scruffy as ‘summoned’ and therefore he can’t surely just ‘appear’ wherever Taimi is? I don’t get it. All of these things are game mechanics, the point I was making was that it doesn’t matter how Scruffy gets there; use your imagination, or if you couldn’t accept that, realize our own ‘companions’ do the same thing and so Scruffy isn’t ‘inconsistent’.

Jaken.6801:

Again gamemechanic vs worldbuilding. We have to compromise and yes, these things don’t make sense as well.

You seem to have an issue with literally everything in GW2 not making sense… and your argument keeps changing from your original; so I’m not really sure where we are now.

Jaken.6801:

In Rata Novus, Scruffy stopps, waits for us to fight off the enemies and then pops up on the other side of the gap.
Add a teleportation effect and it isn’t just a gamemechanic anymore, but established as an ability of Scruffy.

Yes it’s fine to suggest improvements, but as I said, this kind of thing seems to be your issue only because you can’t fill in gaps using your imagination. The same ‘problem’ (as you see it) happens with every other ‘companion’ in the game, and really isn’t something the developers need worry about (as you also said).