I believe Taimi goal is a red herring.
Permanence in a world of shapeshifters is when a spell’s effects persist indefinitely after the initial cast.
The magic for permanent material transformations has always come from divine/dragon sources. Beings of much larger strength and intellect to mortals.
Even with access to these energies those below the level of champion cannot directly influence an indefinite change without a hive mind, group ritual, or technology (artifact, engineering, etc).
A single Sylvari can permanently manipulate plants but none have shown the ability to change fauna or minerals to flora.
Given that even the Dream can’t impart the requisite knowledge, these kinds of spells require more than just an understanding. We don’t know for sure what is needed. Its possible champions and above simply have more intellect, it’s also possible they have more of the necessary magic, Taimi has neither.
They could pull a Kudu, and have Taimi learn enough for a machine that does what she cannot. But I don’t think they will.
I predict Taimi will see the All and not grasp enough of Dragon Magic to help us. It will be a humbling moment and we all use Braham/fakeLazarus to kill the dragons.
She won’t be injured, or become insane, she will just completely fail.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Perhaps it was too dense. Let me simplify it.
There are two types of spellcasters.
Group A: Gods/Dragons/Champions
Group B: everyone else
Scarlet saw the All and she didn’t become as strong as the pale tree, even with her engineering to boost her.
Taimi may surpass Kudu, but she won’t surpass Caladbolg. She can’t succeed.
We also don’t know what kind of technology is hidden in Rata Novus though. If she’s bringing ommads machine back there...she may be able to redirect the energies of normal and primordus into eachother.
I do not. However. Think that if she does succeed, it will have the desired effect.
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Perhaps it was too dense. Let me simplify it.
There are two types of spellcasters.
Group A: Gods/Dragons/Champions
- they can solo cast permanent changes
Group B: everyone else
- they can’t solo cast permanent changes
- instead they use combined power (Dwarves, Forgotten, Hive Mind)
- or artifacts/technology (Caladbolg, Sanguinary Blade, Kudu’s machine)
Scarlet saw the All and she didn’t become as strong as the pale tree, even with her engineering to boost her.
Taimi may surpass Kudu, but she won’t surpass Caladbolg. She can’t succeed.
Firstly, about your assertion about spell casters and whom can and cannot “cast permanent changes”….how do you know? I don’t remember that ever being stated definitively in lore.
Secondly, where was it stated that the goal of Omadd’s machine was to make Scarlet “as strong as the Pale Tree”? That wasn’t the point of the thing. While knowledge IS power, having it isn’t supposed to change you at a physical level.
Thirdly…surpass Caladbog? You say the strangest things.
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Perhaps it was too dense. Let me simplify it.
There are two types of spellcasters.
Group A: Gods/Dragons/Champions
- they can solo cast permanent changes
Group B: everyone else
- they can’t solo cast permanent changes
- instead they use combined power (Dwarves, Forgotten, Hive Mind)
- or artifacts/technology (Caladbolg, Sanguinary Blade, Kudu’s machine)
Scarlet saw the All and she didn’t become as strong as the pale tree, even with her engineering to boost her.
Taimi may surpass Kudu, but she won’t surpass Caladbolg. She can’t succeed.
Firstly, about your assertion about spell casters and whom can and cannot “cast permanent changes”….how do you know? I don’t remember that ever being stated definitively in lore.
Secondly, where was it stated that the goal of Omadd’s machine was to make Scarlet “as strong as the Pale Tree”? That wasn’t the point of the thing. While knowledge IS power, having it isn’t supposed to change you at a physical level.
Thirdly…surpass Caladbog? You say the strangest things.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
Strength does not only refer to physical changes. Scarlet is not as strong as the Pale Tree because she couldn’t make technology that rivaled her power.
The power in that instance was heralding, the ability to find and wake a sleeping Elder Dragon.
Even if I’m wrong in believing the Pale Tree had the ability to wake Mordremoth, we can compare Scarlet and the Great Destroyer. Both hastened awakenings by four decades. And both relied on resources gained from Elder Dragons.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Taimi wants to redirect two competing dragon energies against each other. We believe Caladbolg had a similar purpose, it directed a bunch of plant magic against death magic to cleanse Orr.
Taimi won’t have help from Jormag or Primordius. At best she can ask the Pale Tree how they made Caladbolg.
The All is not the Eternal Alchemy. I don’t think it will be enough.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
While I find most of your ideas very interesting, Daniel, the way you formulate and combine them makes very strange and hard to grasp what you are trying to say.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
- dragon corruption, rite of the great dwarf, the margonites, the searing, the cataclysm, the foefire, the exalted, the cleansing of orr, kudu, jade wind,
Ok. So… the goal of every recorded incident was to make someone “as strong as the Pale Tree”? I don’t think this is what you are trying to say.
I think you are mixing the goal, the specific intention of the people making those events happen, with the final and general effects of those incidents.
The goal of Omadd’s Machine was to look directly at the Eternal Alchemy. Its effect was to give Mordremoth a direct link to Scarlet’s mind. Also she got a glimpse of “the All” and of Mordremoth’s mind, gaining some strenghts and knowledge from that, along a bunch of personality disorders. If this experience made her “stronger than the pale tree” or not, doesn’t have any relevance, IMO, given the resolution of her story.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Are you refering to Scarlet? Wasn’t her goal to awake mordremoth? So… she still had to rely on Mordremoth to awake Mordremoth? AFAIK, she did awake Mordremoth by cleverly using technology (A giant drill).
Scarlet didn’t rely on Mordremoth. Mordremoth was forcibly taking over control of Scarlet’s plans. Her goal – initially – was to confront Mordremoth in a “I will win my freedom” way, but she lost herself by the end and he manipulated her into waking him up.
But it was all done via technology. Only indication of Mordremoth’s influence was the Toxic Alliance.
Side question: When do the Forgotten “combine” their power, as you stated in a similar or comparable fashion to the Dwarves?
Scarlet didn’t rely on Mordremoth. Mordremoth was forcibly taking over control of Scarlet’s plans. Her goal – initially – was to confront Mordremoth in a “I will win my freedom” way, but she lost herself by the end and he manipulated her into waking him up.
But it was all done via technology. Only indication of Mordremoth’s influence was the Toxic Alliance.
Do you think she built everything with just what she gained from the All?
While I find most of your ideas very interesting, Daniel, the way you formulate and combine them makes very strange and hard to grasp what you are trying to say.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
- dragon corruption, rite of the great dwarf, the margonites, the searing, the cataclysm, the foefire, the exalted, the cleansing of orr, kudu, jade wind,
Ok. So… the goal of every recorded incident was to make someone “as strong as the Pale Tree”? I don’t think this is what you are trying to say.
I think you are mixing the goal, the specific intention of the people making those events happen, with the final and general effects of those incidents.The goal of Omadd’s Machine was to look directly at the Eternal Alchemy. Its effect was to give Mordremoth a direct link to Scarlet’s mind. Also she got a glimpse of “the All” and of Mordremoth’s mind, gaining some strenghts and knowledge from that, along a bunch of personality disorders. If this experience made her “stronger than the pale tree” or not, doesn’t have any relevance, IMO, given the resolution of her story.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Are you refering to Scarlet? Wasn’t her goal to awake mordremoth? So… she still had to rely on Mordremoth to awake Mordremoth? AFAIK, she did awake Mordremoth by cleverly using technology (A giant drill).
I’ll try to be clearer.
All incidents in the game where something was permanently transformed by magic came from one of the following:
We have never seen a regular person permanently change something totally by themselves.
I don’t think Scarlet just accomplished it through her own ingenuity + the All. I think she had help from Mordemoth in the knowledge department.
I think Taimi when she accesses the All will not get enough information to invent a solution.
This is obviously my subjective interpretation of the events surrounding Scarlet, and how complex Taimi’s machine will have to be.
No doubt Mordremoth “helped” her.
Scarlet’s original goal was simply to be recognized as one of the greatest in her field. After entering Omad’s machine, she suddenly decided to kill his mentor and take a path of treachery and domination.
IMO is very safe to assume Mordremoth simply landed on her mind and rearranged it to his convenience, destroying all the inhibitions that could have stopped her, planting the proper motivations and goals, and giving her all the info she would need to awake him.
However, while Taimi doesn’t have an elder dragon to mess with her mind, she still have a lot of great info, even some data even Scarlet would have killed to get.
She isn a regular person. She isn’t only a genius, either, but also a well placed scientist: she have access to the multiple researches from Scarlet, Rata Sum scholars, Gorr crewe, and the field experience with the Commander’s team. The pact joint library, and the antecedents from Ogden and Rhoban aren’t small fry either. Basically, the little asura is almost as well informed as the player: IMO, Taimi’s dragon theories could probably be the better informed ones in all Tyrian history.
Of course, none of that give any guarantee she would have any success with Omad’s Machine. The machine doesn’t test the subject knowledge. It test the subject’s will. And from that POV, Taimi is just a reckless child.
So, will Taimi “understand” the all? Hard to say, probably not. Will she get any valuable info to make the two dragons fight? Hard to say, probably a little. Will she overcome the dangers of watching directly at whatever is that thing in Omadd’s Machine? IMO that is the true question.
Maybe Primordus and Jormag began to fight the very intant Taimi enters the machine: detroying averything inside her head…
I can’t point any time where Scarlet’s goal was “to be recognized as one of the greatest in her field” – her goal as shown in the short story of her background was 100% “to learn more at any means”. And this included treachery and domination, such as tricking her mentors (while being gleefully uncaring of consequences which, somehow, did not affect her – thus the first case of mary sueness came into place), and joining the Inquest.
Mordremoth did not implant treachery and deception or domination onto Scarlet, she had that even while being Ceara. It’s true that Mordremoth got into Scarlet’s mind ever since entering the machine, but his machinations seemed to just be implanting plans into her – mainly, I’d argue, revolving around the Tower of Nightmares (a ton of obvious and in-hindsight-even-more-obvious Mordremoth references in that content) and waking Mordremoth.
That said, going into the machine and witnessing The All seemed to merely draw Mordremoth’s attention to Scarlet. Similarly, when the PC goes into the machine, they respond with saying “[the dragon] came at me.” So in turn, Taimi going into the machine and witnessing The All will potentially draw her to the other dragons’ attention.
And, well, the last time an asura caught the attention of an Elder Dragon’s mind… Kralkatorrik went fullblown “kill the kitten pest in my brain!” and sent its small army of branded after the asura’s body, as well as attacked personally.
“Don’t quote me on this”
- Amaimon
but I thought Scarlet’s desire was to be the best in the field of scholarly, for sake of having her own path, or for the sake of having the means to get her own path.
Like, I felt she felt that intelligence was the most important tool (or weapon) to have in this world, and that she didn’t want anything to do with an assigned duty or destiny.
While I find most of your ideas very interesting, Daniel, the way you formulate and combine them makes very strange and hard to grasp what you are trying to say.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
- dragon corruption, rite of the great dwarf, the margonites, the searing, the cataclysm, the foefire, the exalted, the cleansing of orr, kudu, jade wind,
Ok. So… the goal of every recorded incident was to make someone “as strong as the Pale Tree”? I don’t think this is what you are trying to say.
I think you are mixing the goal, the specific intention of the people making those events happen, with the final and general effects of those incidents.The goal of Omadd’s Machine was to look directly at the Eternal Alchemy. Its effect was to give Mordremoth a direct link to Scarlet’s mind. Also she got a glimpse of “the All” and of Mordremoth’s mind, gaining some strenghts and knowledge from that, along a bunch of personality disorders. If this experience made her “stronger than the pale tree” or not, doesn’t have any relevance, IMO, given the resolution of her story.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Are you refering to Scarlet? Wasn’t her goal to awake mordremoth? So… she still had to rely on Mordremoth to awake Mordremoth? AFAIK, she did awake Mordremoth by cleverly using technology (A giant drill).
I’ll try to be clearer.
All incidents in the game where something was permanently transformed by magic came from one of the following:
- Elder Dragon/God or their champion
- a group of people combining their power
- a person or people using artifacts/technology
We have never seen a regular person permanently change something totally by themselves.
I don’t think Scarlet just accomplished it through her own ingenuity + the All. I think she had help from Mordemoth in the knowledge department.
I think Taimi when she accesses the All will not get enough information to invent a solution.
This is obviously my subjective interpretation of the events surrounding Scarlet, and how complex Taimi’s machine will have to be.
I sincerely doubt mordremoth actively helped Scarlet. When you think about, mordremoth was still asleep. I think Scarlet, at the time, was still a normal sylvari, but because she saw “the truth of the world” she knew the elder dragons were the leading tools in shaping the world, in her case, especially mordremoth. I think she just felt it necessary to awaken mordremoth to keep the “engine of the world” rolling
Ceara’s initial motivations were actually laid out pretty clearly when we were introduced to her backstory. “She wanted to construct systems as complex as the ones she saw in nature, to build machines as sublime as the living things she saw each and every day. Her greatest joy as a student came from testing those established systems to expose their flaws in aid of strengthening her own designs.” It wasn’t just learning for learning’s sake, but learning so that she could one-up the natural world- in asura terms, the Eternal Alchemy- itself. That fits what we saw, too: her biggest accomplishment before she switched to Scarlet were the steam creatures, the designing and building of an artificial and self-replicating form of life.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
I can’t point any time where Scarlet’s goal was “to be recognized as one of the greatest in her field” – her goal as shown in the short story of her background was 100% “to learn more at any means”. And this included treachery and domination, such as tricking her mentors (while being gleefully uncaring of consequences which, somehow, did not affect her – thus the first case of mary sueness came into place), and joining the Inquest.
Mordremoth did not implant treachery and deception or domination onto Scarlet, she had that even while being Ceara. It’s true that Mordremoth got into Scarlet’s mind ever since entering the machine, but his machinations seemed to just be implanting plans into her – mainly, I’d argue, revolving around the Tower of Nightmares (a ton of obvious and in-hindsight-even-more-obvious Mordremoth references in that content) and waking Mordremoth.
That said, going into the machine and witnessing The All seemed to merely draw Mordremoth’s attention to Scarlet. Similarly, when the PC goes into the machine, they respond with saying “[the dragon] came at me.” So in turn, Taimi going into the machine and witnessing The All will potentially draw her to the other dragons’ attention.
And, well, the last time an asura caught the attention of an Elder Dragon’s mind… Kralkatorrik went fullblown “kill the kitten pest in my brain!” and sent its small army of branded after the asura’s body, as well as attacked personally.
To be fair, Snaff was going directly into his Mind. I doubt the Antikytheria is directly attached to an ED’s consciousness.
There may be special liberties attached to a Mind Dragon or his Blighting Trees.
Except that the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]” was… Zhaitan’s orb (well, they all kind of did, but Zhaitan’s was the closest and was right up to the camera before crashing into Tyria’s orb; Mordremoth’s was second closest).
Which is actually rather interesting, given Zhaitan was dead at the time that it would be the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]”.
Not to mention the PC claimed to have seen their own role in The All (which is also rather interesting and not yet answered, unless the role is slaying the orbs and throwing The All out of balance… WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF DESTRUCTION! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US AND DIE! FIRE AND CHAOS FOLLOWS IN OUR WAKE AND NONE CAN STOP US IN OUR CRUSADE OF ANNIHILATION!)
Except that the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]” was… Zhaitan’s orb (well, they all kind of did, but Zhaitan’s was the closest and was right up to the camera before crashing into Tyria’s orb; Mordremoth’s was second closest).
Which is actually rather interesting, given Zhaitan was dead at the time that it would be the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]”.
Not to mention the PC claimed to have seen their own role in The All (which is also rather interesting and not yet answered, unless the role is slaying the orbs and throwing The All out of balance… WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF DESTRUCTION! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US AND DIE! FIRE AND CHAOS FOLLOWS IN OUR WAKE AND NONE CAN STOP US IN OUR CRUSADE OF ANNIHILATION!)
The Antikytheria is a map of the cosmos, the PC finding their role is not surprising. Whether they found out they were special in someway is another matter entirely.
The Dragon was probably Mordremoth. He and the PT have proven capable at contacting those in the machine and you hear a growl at the end of your vision. Zhaitan’s orb may have fallen first, but he was dead at that point. So either the sound is part of the experience and represents another growling entity, or Mordremoth contacted the PC’s mind while they were in the machine.
No, The All (or Antikytheria) is only a map of Tyria, the six bodies of power, and how they work together. The cosmos is far bigger than the magical equivalent to a single planet’s magnetic and atmospheric states of being.
And the dragon that plunged into Tyria’s orb was 100% Zhaitan’s orb. If you compare placement to the Priory’s map of the All it lines with the orb marked Z, and it was the fourth to glow and move, rather than the last. The growl was probably Mordremoth’s (wasn’t as high pitched as Zhaitan’s), but the orb that got closest to the camera was definitely the one that crashed into Tyria and was definitely Zhaitan’s.
On main topic:
It should be noted that what we saw when entering the machine is what Scarlet saw but we were in there for a few scant seconds, Scarlet was in the machine for much, much longer and as the short story says:
She saw Tyria as a life-sized globe, fixed in place among cosmic storms and massive clouds of potentiality. She wondered if she would see herself in Omadd’s lab when Rata Sum rotated into view, but then impatiently went on, plunging deeper into the churning void.
[snip convo with Pale Tree]
She soon saw a vague, glowing shape ahead. A tree, she thought…the Pale Tree. Its great off-white trunk connected a broad network of branches and leaves to a root system below. Instead of nuts or berries beneath its leaves, there were sylvari. Thousands of her people hung from the tree’s boughs like ripe fruit ready to fall. Their bodies did not move, but their eyes shifted and rolled, eagerly taking in their surroundings.
[snip further description of PT + sylvari + red vine]
With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.
Scarlet began with a vision of The All (what we ended with), then saw the Pale Tree (our second vision), then pushed beyond it.
And when she went beyond… “She had been thrashing violently in the isolation module for days now”
What we saw != what Scarlet saw; she saw much more (whether more subjects, or the same subject in greater detail, is not entirely clear)
@konig
A dragon came at them, not an orb. I am not disagreeing which orb was Zhaitan. I am saying the dragon the PC saw/heard was Mordremoth.
We don’t know whether the Antikytheria is showing different levels of the Eternal Alchemy, but we have no reason to assume the visions are separate. When Scarlet saw the All she expressed a desire to zoom in. As she plunged deeper she saw the Pale Tree. Since the context is a map, this implies magnification.
The PC is on Tyria so naturally a detailed depiction of the planet includes them.
On the main topic:
I doubt Taimi can perform her task without a dragon’s/powerful entity’s assistance. And even if she could, she will be harmed for trying.
Edit: this brings us back to the OP
Those that aren’t champions+ rely on a group/hive mind, or an artifact/technology to perform the functions of stronger minds.
The Pale Tree is still sane after experiencing Scarlet’s vision.
And even though the PC would obviously want a Caladbolg that cleansed corruption, the one we ended up making with the Pale Tree’s help is inferior.
Knowledge is literally power. Being able to hold all that information in one brain separates a dude from a diety.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
The dragons are represented in the cinematic by orbs. There is no literal dragon in the cinematic, and that’s pretty point blank obvious. So ergo, the “dragon” that “came at” the PC would have been an orb, and the one that went to the PC was Zhaitan’s, not Mordremoth’s.
The description of What Scarlet Saw was certainly showing more than what we saw. And that’s ignoring the part where “she went beyond” the vision (not just zoomed in, she “plunged through and went beyond”).
Not to mention the PC claimed to have seen their own role in The All (which is also rather interesting and not yet answered, unless the role is slaying the orbs and throwing The All out of balance… WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF DESTRUCTION! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US AND DIE! FIRE AND CHAOS FOLLOWS IN OUR WAKE AND NONE CAN STOP US IN OUR CRUSADE OF ANNIHILATION!)
………..I like this…….I like this a lot.
Except that the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]” was… Zhaitan’s orb (well, they all kind of did, but Zhaitan’s was the closest and was right up to the camera before crashing into Tyria’s orb; Mordremoth’s was second closest).
Which is actually rather interesting, given Zhaitan was dead at the time that it would be the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]”.
Not to mention the PC claimed to have seen their own role in The All (which is also rather interesting and not yet answered, unless the role is slaying the orbs and throwing The All out of balance… WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF DESTRUCTION! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US AND DIE! FIRE AND CHAOS FOLLOWS IN OUR WAKE AND NONE CAN STOP US IN OUR CRUSADE OF ANNIHILATION!)
Either Omadd’s Machine showed us our actions with Zhaitan literally lunging at us right before we killed him at Orr or Zhaitan was secretly alive yet we somehow killed him unknowingly using Omadd’s Machine… I would assume the former myself.
The dragons are represented in the cinematic by orbs. There is no literal dragon in the cinematic, and that’s pretty point blank obvious. So ergo, the “dragon” that “came at” the PC would have been an orb, and the one that went to the PC was Zhaitan’s, not Mordremoth’s.
The description of What Scarlet Saw was certainly showing more than what we saw. And that’s ignoring the part where “she went beyond” the vision (not just zoomed in, she “plunged through and went beyond”).
If Zhaitan was coming at them they would have said that. Likewise if spheres were coming at them. Now given that they also don’t mention the growling, the PC did not experience the vision as we did. Their language implies a dragon they haven’t fought yet.
And I am not ignoring anything. The Antikytheria is three-dimensional. Zooming is on one axis, going beyond is on another. It no different than going from planet to city to steet view on Google Earth.
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