Guild Wars 2

I’ve been finishing my world completion and was spending quite some time in The Brand fighting Kralkatorrik’s minions when a thought occurred to me. The Branded have a bright purple motif, utilize ranged attacks akin to Mesmer bolts and the Brand itself is contained in a wavy field of corruption that looks like the illusionary veils left by Mesmers. Knowing Lyssa as the patron god of Mesmers, herself rocking the purple motif constantly and being a vein god obsessed with beauty, I started to wonder if there was a connection between Lyssa and Kralkatorrik the crystal elder dragon.

I then looked at the other dragons and the other gods.

Lyssa and Kralkatorrik : Illusionary, purple themed, beautiful
Balthazaar and Primordius : Destructive, fire-based, brutal and unyielding
Grenth and Jormag : God/Dragon of Ice, manipulative, obsessed with death, Grenth’s Door is in the Shiverpeak Mountains
Melandru and Mordremoth : Earth/nature themed
Dwayna and Zhaitan : Goddess of Life and Dragon of Undeath

I know some would say that the Dwayna/Zhaitan comparison is bad and that Zhaitan would be better fit with Grenth but that’s way off. Dwayna is the head Goddess and Zhaitan sits in Arah at the seat of the Gods’ holy city. Zhaitan doesn’t kill, he resurrects which is a corruption of “life giving” powers, something that Dwayna controls. Even if you can argue that Zhaitan is a better counterpart for Grenth, then Dwayna’s wind aspect could match Jormag’s stormy description.

And as for the last Dragon / God, the Deep Sea Dragon would appear to be a poor fit for Kormir….but that’s not the 6th god we’re discussing.

Abbadon and the Deep Sea Dragon : Water themed, highly secretive, concealed

The original sixth god was the God of Water and secrets. He lost his god-hood when he dissented with the other gods over giving magic to mortals. If I were to place bets, I’d say there’s a reason we don’t have a name for the Deep Sea Dragon yet. It’s fitting for the god of secrets to match with an unnamed dragon. I also see this one as being the last we actually encounter.

What do these connections mean? Are these counterparts valid? I don’t know, but they seem to match up really well. 6 Gods, 6 Dragons. The Dragons were dormant throughout the entire reign of the Human Gods and now that the Gods have left, they return. Just seems suspicious.

Maybe the Dragons ate the Gods and absorbed their powers, voodoo-style.

Actually I’ma go ahead and say why are you using Abbadon and not Dhuum? Since Dhuum was a god long before Grenth.

Further you run into more complications when you add to the fact that Abbadon had an unnamed predecessor who he had, sources seem to indicate, that he also deposed of to gain his Godhood.

As many here will likely pop up and say, you can’t fit these puzzle pieces together due to the discrepencies that have arisen over the years. Domains over have switched hands too often, and Gods have fallen and risen that we simply can’t make any accurate correlation between Gods and Dragons. This is also coming from somebody who tried (And failed) to do exactly what you’re doing.

Ratphink.4751:

Actually I’ma go ahead and say why are you using Abbadon and not Dhuum? Since Dhuum was a god long before Grenth.

Further you run into more complications when you add to the fact that Abbadon had an unnamed predecessor who he had, sources seem to indicate, that he also deposed of to gain his Godhood.

As many here will likely pop up and say, you can’t fit these puzzle pieces together due to the discrepencies that have arisen over the years. Domains over have switched hands too often, and Gods have fallen and risen that we simply can’t make any accurate correlation between Gods and Dragons. This is also coming from somebody who tried (And failed) to do exactly what you’re doing.

Why use Abaddon over Kormir and not Dhuum over Grenth? Well, there are multiple explanations that could work there. First off, Kormir and Grenth usurp the mantles of the original gods, as did presumably Abaddon before them. These Gods, are simply embodiments of the same power. Grenth and Dhuum are both gods of death and ice. You’ll say “well Kormir isn’t a water Goddess like Abaddon was”….well, I’d respond by pointing towards her statue in Divinity’s Reach. While she’s not described in most aspects as a water aspect, her statue clearly shows her raising waves of water around her. The only difference between her and her predecessor is their differing affinities towards truth and secrets. I’d bet that despite her being described as the Goddess of Truth, Knowledge and Justice, she also inherited her predecessor’s water domain and that her statue is a direct nod to that.

My statement is that the Gods don’t necessarily match with the Dragons, but their aspects do.

Their domains haven’t changed much. You have:
- Fire and War
- Ice and Death
- Wind and Life
- Earth and Nature
- Illusions and Beauty
- Water and Knowledge (Secrets or Truth)

Please enlighten me about where these aspects have changed. Where have domains crossed or been reorganized in ways that can’t be seen as misplaced writing or retcons.

I stand by my suspicion that there is a connection.

Omega.1473:

I’d bet that despite her being described as the Goddess of Truth, Knowledge and Justice, she also inherited her predecessor’s water domain and that her statue is a direct nod to that.

not true. Lyssa is the current goddess of water. That domain went to her when Kormir ascended.

The Breakdown of the gods spheres according to the wiki is as follows:

Balthazar, god of war, fire, and courage.
Dwayna, goddess of healing, air, and life.
Grenth, god of darkness, death, and ice.
Kormir, goddess of order, spirit, and truth.
Lyssa, twin goddesses of beauty, water and illusion.
Melandru, goddess of nature, earth, and growth.

If you’re going to match dragons to gods that’s what you gotta work with.

sigh Not another one. Like the 5+ already existing threads on this isn’t enough.

1. Branded use electrical attacks – they’re purple as that’s Kralkatorrik’s color. They use elementalist animations, not mesmer ones. There’s no tie between Branded and mesmers.
2. There’s nothing about Kralkatorrik that’s related to illusions or beauty.
3. If you’re going to talk about gods to dragons, you have to go with the originals – Dhuum, not Grenth, and Abaddon’s predecessor, not Kormir. Dhuum has no ties to ice, therefore Dhuum=Jormag doesn’t fit at all. And Jormag’s not obsessed with death anyways. Grenth’s Door/Reaper’s Gate location is irrelevant to Jormag.
4. Zhaitan does kill. You can’t have undead without killing.
5. Given Kormir and Abaddon both share knowledge, Abaddon’s predecessor likely did as well – there’s no dragon for knowledge. Furthermore, if you go with Grenth, you must go with Kormir – there’s no dragon for knowledge, truth, order, or spirit. Furthermore, if you go with Grenth and Kormir, then Lyssa’s the goddess of water now.

In short: There is no dragon for Kormir – and if you go with Abaddon, you must go with his predecessor which all indications lead to no dragon for him/her; if you go with Kormir you go with Grenth (and vice versa) in which you get Zhaitan and Jormag but if you go with Abaddon’s predecessor then you go with Dhuum which you get Zhaitan but no god for Jormag. If you go with Dhuum and Zhaitan fits with Dhuum then you got no dragon for Dwayna. Irregardless you have no god for Kralkatorrik (Lyssa doesn’t fit besides “purple” and guess what – Abaddon was also purple!).

This connection fails after Melandru=Sixth Nature Dragon (which is speculative) and Balthazar=Primordus.

Oglaf.1074:

Maybe the Dragons ate the Gods and absorbed their powers, voodoo-style.

Except that Grenth is still very much alive as proven by the personal storyline.

Omega.1473:

Grenth and Dhuum are both gods of death and ice.

WRONG!

Grenth was a half-god and always representing ice and mortality. Dhuum only represents death, which Grenth took over. Dhuum is never once related to ice!

Omega.1473:

You’ll say “well Kormir isn’t a water Goddess like Abaddon was”….well, I’d respond by pointing towards her statue in Divinity’s Reach. While she’s not described in most aspects as a water aspect, her statue clearly shows her raising waves of water around her.

Except that Lyssa took over water after Nightfall, as proven by the human biography question when creating a character.

Those don’t look like waves of water to me, they can easily be waves of ether or some other force.

Omega.1473:

Please enlighten me about where these aspects have changed.

Abaddon was the god of Knowledge and Water (when he became imprisoned it turned to Secrets and the Deeps); with his death, Kormir became the goddess of Truth, Order, and Spirit whereas Lyssa took water, becoming the goddess of beauty, illusion, and water. Kormir also took judgment over from Grenth – at least a portion of it (whereas Grenth judged all before, now he only seems to judge the dead).

That is where domains switched over. Other than the fact that Dhuum was never ice.

There was discussions a while back about how the gods never had their powers when they came to tyria, or at least not their mantles as we know them, and that they “stole” or borrowed it from the sleeping dragons and that’s how they got their current assignments, and if that were the case it could fill in lots of holes in the lore and lend credibility to your theory. The similarities between the gods and dragons are a pretty good coincidence, although I’m sure plenty of people have reasons to argue against it. Until we know more it’s all just theory anyway but I for one subscribe to at least some versions of your theory. My idea though is not that the dragons resemble the powers of the gods, but the other way around. Also one last note, the disappearance of the gods might be due to the fact they knew the dragons were awakening and also knew they would have no defense against them since the very powers they wielded were nothing more than essences of the dragons themselves.

Except that in accordance with the Orrian History Scrolls they did have their powers – otherwise Dwayna wouldn’t be able to open portals to other words (Odran only did so with mass sacrifices), Balthazar wouldn’t have been able to sweep the land in flame, or Melandru able to bring forth new life.

The overlapping of domain of some of the gods with the dragons is simply the fact that they both have ties to the elements of nature. It doesn’t signify a connection at all.

Also Omega I do agree with you on the water dragon being one of the last we deal with, and even though the mantle of water was transferred around I think it fits with the Unnamed/Abbadon/Kormir. I have a feeling there’s an expansion or a buttload of new content coming soon so hopefully we will be given more reliable insight into the dragons.

Who is Mordremoth? I tried searching for him on the Wiki, but nothing came up.

Mordremoth is a name given to us by the Crucible of Eternity explorable mode dungeon. A boss in there (Subject Alpha) uses skills from many elder dragons, including a skill named after Mordremoth, which is not tied to a currently known Elder Dragon. Thus it is theorized that Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon that we do not yet know about, whether because it is on a different continent, or perhaps it died during the last cycle, or that it just has not awoken yet.

Although it is an interesting theory about dragons and the six human gods i think that the dragons are more of opposite counterparts to the races themselves. Each dragon being opposed to the beliefs of each race, and when the fight for each dragon comes up during the story leading up to each dragon’s fight will have a head figure for the race that is “destined” to defeat the dragon, such as with Zhaitan and the sylvari. Sylvari believe that they where made to fight the dragons just as some sylvari have had a “Dream” of fighting the dragons (the player being on of them).

Zhaitan is the opposite of the sylvari in that it conflicts with Ventari’s teachings (the ones give to you in character creation to be specific). in that:

“All things have a right to grow” were as Zhaitan wish for only his own growth in power, take from others, taking there dead for his army.

“Where life goes so should I” Following what you were called to do and not what other will you to, such as Zhaitan does with the Risen.

“Act with wisdom, but act.” Act by your judgement and what you learned. while Zhaitan commands his army to act on his will and not act on there own. (this is all circumstantial as this is my view on each of Ventari’s teachings.)

When the time comes to fight Jormag I think it will be a Norn in the story that will lead the player through the fight. The Sons of Svanir believe Jormag to be a spirit of the wild granting power to those who have power. while Norn believe that the Spirits of the wild bless those who are willing to learn and follow them, weak or strong. The Norn also don’t see Jormag as a spirit of the wild but a corruption, and the spirits are normally seen as being pure/

For the other dragons i’m not to sure, Kralkatorrik could be human or charr, do to the what the branding hit and did. but i would say charr more do to it sleeping in the charr homeland.

Primordus could be Asura or Dwarf (they might become playable in a later expansions, highly doubt due to events in GW1 though)

Deep sea dragon could be human or Tengu (if they make them playable in later expansions), also our gate way back to Cantha as well.

sorry for wall of text

I disagree with you Okamaru. Zhaitan doesn’t wish for only himself to grow, based on what we see his minions tell, and one can easily argue all Elder Dragons make their minions do “what other will you to” as well as your argument for Act with Wisdom, but Act – all Elder Dragons make them act with their judgement, not their minions’ – with the exception of the most powerful ones, like the Eyes of Zhaitan, in which even the Risen can sometimes act on their own without Zhaitan needing to address them (though they still act in the benefit of their lord and master, Zhaitan).

Considering that the Elder Dragons predate all five modern major races, and there are six Elder Dragons not five, I cannot see them as being the opposite of said modern major races – Zhaitan’s awakening even predates sylvari by roughly 75 years.

If they are related to races – something, again, that I doubt due to age – then I’d say that they’re the amplification of the races’ negative sides. Jormag grants power to those who seek it, showing to be the negative trait of norn (seeking to become legendary); Kralkatorrik is shown as trying to obtain things not himself, which is relatable to both human and charr in how they aggressively take others’ lands; Zhaitan through his minions show the desire for immortality, which fits humans in how they seek to preserve themselves in the world (for instance, after the Six Gods left Orrians dedicated themselves to preserving Arah how the gods left it for their eventual return; Canthans isolated themselves to preserve their own culture and themselves from the multitude of threats that came in GW1, humanity in Tyria has a tendency to build walled villages and towns, focusing more on defense nowadays than offensive military abilities).

But this stops with Primordus and asura, as Primordus has shown only the desire to kill all life, which isn’t shown in any asura who are most easily seen as innovators – the desire to advance life, basically. And then there’s no playable race for the DSD, and there’s still the age issue.

Agreed, plus for your statement to hold any truth, they would also have to hold an opposing theme to one of each of the previous cycle’s races. Because we know for a fact at least Primordus and Zhaitan were specifically said to be a part of the last cycle (and the others are assumed as well, it’s just that we get those specific names from the Dwarves) We can assume that we would have to somehow tie Zhaitan, Primordus, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and DSD to the Seer, Mursaat, Jotun, Dwarves, and Forgotten. And I see that mucking things up much, much more.

I see your point but you view it as if they where awoke to counter act the races (or at least that’s how it came across to me) , I was pointing out how the developers came up with the idea and over all theme of elder dragons being opposite to each race. while there are 6 dragon and only 5 races we really only know the name and possibly theme of the sixth dragon, so when the time for the dragon to show up we may have a sixth races. To say they are even tied to the six gods is kind of out seeing as they predated even them, they may not have been active but they where alive. So to dismiss something because it’s been around longer doesn’t really count when it comes to developing parallels.

As for Primordus and Asura, There are Asura who believe in proving there invention no matter what the coast, even if it is someones life, showing a desire of innovation over, life of others.

Narcemus.1348:

Because we know for a fact at least Primordus and Zhaitan were specifically said to be a part of the last cycle (and the others are assumed as well, it’s just that we get those specific names from the Dwarves)

We get Jormag’s name from dwarven legends too, and we know Kralkatorrik was thanks to Glint. The questionable one would be DSD and “Mordremoth.” Though we know there were six ED previously.

Okamaru.8904:

while there are 6 dragon and only 5 races we really only know the name and possibly theme of the sixth dragon, so when the time for the dragon to show up we may have a sixth races.

You do realize that we know even less of the Deep Sea Dragon – the fifth one.

Okamaru.8904:

As for Primordus and Asura, There are Asura who believe in proving there invention no matter what the coast, even if it is someones life, showing a desire of innovation over, life of others.

Those are Inquest, which aren’t really the standard asura. It’s like saying Jormag’s the opposite of Sons of Svanir norn.

Even from a development point of view, they don’t seem to be opposites – from a development/storyline view, I can see how one race would be more focused on one dragon than the rest – though one would think that if this is the case that it’d be humans focused on Zhaitan, not sylvari. As things stand, there’s no Elder Dragon for humans to focus on primarily – DSD don’t really affect them and if theories on Mordremoth hold true, then he affects sylvari the most. Unless we were toview this as not a “race x is more focused on dragon y” but rather “when fighting dragon y, we focus on the lore of race x” which means irregardless of the leading NPC (in this case, Trahearne – if my suspicions are correct, then Jormag’s leading NPC will be Sigfast or Skarti), there will be a focused race in which Zhaitan=humans; and most likely Mordremoth will be sylvari, Jormag be norn, Kralk be charr, Primordus be asura, and DSD be… largos? shrug

But that’s all conjecture into the minds of the developers and their intentions for plot focus, rather than lore.

Either way, I can’t see the Elder Dragons being opposites of races. If that were true, then the norn’s opposite would be wanting to be unheard of, and the charr’s opposite would be peaceful.

Some dragons are definitely made out to be larger threats to a specific race than others, however lets be honest and lets keep this to the one we know of. Jormag is really the only Dragon we see praying on a single Race in the game, and even then I don’t think any of us really understand why his main focal point of corruption is the Norn.

Kralkatorrik, to be perfectly honest, seems to be pretty happy corrupting just about everything near the brand. There doesn’t seem to be rhyme or reason to its growth besides… well just growing outward and onward. The DSD is similarly just screwing over any underwater race that gets too close to its new territory, though arguably I think Krait and possibly Karka were the most effected directly by the Dragon with Quaggan and Hylek being the unhappy recipients of the movement closer to land by each. Primordus you COULD argue is set up against the Dwarves, but I’d actually argue the opposite route in that the Dwarves were set up opposite of Primordus. He wants to destroy everything, the Dwarves manned up and are drawing the line in front of his troops (effectiveness is arguable).

Zhaitan I found in the story to be more a threat to Unity as a whole, hence why I think the devs had so much fun with that whole ‘we must unite’ schtick that we saw throughout the entire story. Lion’s Arch, the city that was under the largest threat of Undead occupancy, marks a unified effort by all five races to live, fight, and exist alongside one another. Next to that we have the three orders, likewise populated by members of all five races (and more depending on your story choices), banding together to fight the greater threat that is a rather big, smelly corpse of a dragon. To say that he was set up opposed of either Humanity or Sylvari would be to put undue importance on either race during the story (either as saying that LA is a Human city or that Trahearne lead the Pact because he was a Sylvari).

If you’re counting minor races, Jormag seems to hold an interest in kodan as well as norn (the large number of norn icebrood is probably just because of the Sons of Svanir).

Incidentally enough, there’s a quaggan in Timberline Falls which tells us an Elder Dragon forced them out of their home (rather than the krait as the blog post says). To quote: “When the dragons spewed their filth across Tyria, the quaggans had to flee.” (next dialogue line) “Quaggans swam upwards, into the air, onto land. There was no other choice. But quaggans found other enemies in shallow waters. The worst are the krait.”

Yeah, Jormag also somehow corrupts quaggan, which seems to be ArenaNet’s card for making people hate the ED’s. Because everyone loves a quaggan, but when anyone sees a risen quaggan or a icebrood quaggan, their hearts begin to melt out of sympathy for the race, and burn with a desire to destroy the evil creature that would hurt poor quaggans.

Confession bear.jpg

I actually think Skritt are cuter than Quaggan.

I actually like icebrood quaggans…

“Quaggan is going to kill you!”

Grenth was the Prince of Ice and Sorrow before he became a God by usurping Dhuum.

Considering Grenth got his power of Ice from somewhere it’s probably from his mother Dwayna the Goddess of Air making her match up with in opposites and nature with Jormag the Dragon of Ice(a perversion of Air if ever there was one).

Zhaitan the Dragon of Undeath’s power is a perversion(as in turns it against it’s nature) of Dhuum the God of Death’s.

Primordus the Dragon of Fire and Destruction’s power is a perversion of Balthazar the God of Fire and War’s.

Kralkatorrik the Dragon of Crystal and Perfection is a perversion of Lyssa the Goddess of Illusion(by making illusion into reality) and Beauty’s.

The Deep sea dragon’s power is a perversion of Abbadon the God of Water’s.

The last dragon(possibly named Mordramoth)‘s power is probably a perversion of Melandru the Goddes of Earth and Nature’s.

Calling Primordus the “dragon of destruction” and Kralkatorrik the “dragon of perfection” is rather speculative.

And I fail to see how ice = air.

And how can the dragons be the perversion of the gods’ power, when they predate the gods(’ influence on Tyria)?

Well not the Gods’ actual power per se, the are a perversion of the Gods’ spheres of influence:

Zhaitan twisting Death or Dead into Undeath or Undead.

Jormag perverting Warm Winds into Cold Icey Winds(As I said Grenth got his Ice powers before usurping Dhuum and since he got his power from somewhere he must of got his powers from his mother(cold air perhaps)).

Kralkatorrik pervert Chaos magic into turning people into chaotic Crystal monstrosities.

Primordus perverts Fire and Lava into Destroyers.

The Deepsea Dragon(whatever his name is) perverts Water into Tentacled Sea Creatures.

The Final Dragon(possibly named Mordramoth) most likely perverts Earth or Nature in some way.

I fail to see where Jormag is related to winds – his element is ice, and his powers are mental based. There’s nothing air-based about him – in fact, none of the Elder Dragons have anything air-based about them; the closest we get is Kralkatorrik with his heavy use of lightning, however lightning is present at places of high corruption for Jormag and Zhaitan too, so that’s not saying much (but still its a much greater aspect of Kralkatorrik). Nothing says that Grenth got his demi-god power from Dwayna’s domain. It could be that he just had powers over a domain, and that because of his personality they were cold and mortality (he was always known as the Prince of Ice and Sorrows, as you said, and similarly always represented judgment and mortality).

I fail to see where or how Kralkatorrik is related to chaos magic. Nothing about him is chaotic – no more than any other Elder Dragon, at least. He is lightning, earth, and crystal, heat and electricity (his corruption appears to have been a case of super-heating and super-cooling the land, and in Edge of Destiny there’s a lot of usage of the word “melt” and its various forms). This is not related to chaos magic at all.

In the long run, the only ties there is would be that both groups hold domain over certain elements/aspects of nature. Thing is – chaos and illusions isn’t nature. Lyssa’s the odd-man-out among the Six Gods in regards to having domain over nature – or rather, was until Abaddon’s death, then it became Kormir who’s the odd-man-out. So at the very best, you can only ever have five dragons and gods linked to each other – and even then, Jormag/Zhaitan/Grenth/Dhuum/Dwayna makes things very complicated.

You’ll always have Kralkatorrik without a god, and you’ll either have Zhaitan without a god and Lyssa without a dragon, or Kormir without a dragon.

Unless you seriously stretch things to the realm of disbelief – like saying Dwayna is Jormag’s counterpart because of Grenth being Dwayna’s son – then it just doesn’t work.

And this is ignoring the implications that there are possibly more than six Elder Dragons (you got Kuunavang being placed on par to Glint, and no Elder Dragon has any relation to anything Kuunavang has – e.g., stars – and you got Trahearne stating after Zhaitan’s death in his new little instance that Elder Dragons are beginning to awaken around the world – these two bits heavily imply there are many more Elder Dragons than the six the jotun stelae mentions).

The elder dragons are generally considered to be related to the six gods, since the gods left of with the arrival of the elder dragons. But what are their motivations? Do they have their own personallity and did they make a pact with the other elder dragons or are they just mindless evil all consuming monsters that have no other will but destroying the universe? Do they all have speech? I know that Jormag is capable of communication with the races since he already communicated with Svanir, but what about the rest? It would be really interesting if they would have different motivations and that they would have formed some kind of alliance and that they would communicate in the form of speech.

To me, the lore and the origin of the elder dragons is rather obscure. But in time all relevant questions will be answered. At least I think so.

Except that the gods did not leave with the arrival of the Elder Dragons. Or the Elder Dragons’ awakening, either.

The Gods left in Year 0. The Elder Dragons current awakening began in 1079 AE. The Six left because of Abaddon’s actions, and in Nightfall they just distanced themselves more. But in all, the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ presence on Tyria, and the Six Gods (or at least three of them) are heavily implied if not outright stated to have been gods before coming to the world of Tyria. From what I’ve heard – and unfortunately I haven’t fully explored the place yet to know first hand – the Arah explorable dungeon tells us that the Six Gods didn’t even know Zhaitan was beneath Orr.

As for Elder Dragon motivations, personality and so forth… They do, in my opinion, hold personalities and there is an entire thread on the notion, which I have presented my thoughts on, somewhere in this forum. And the Elder Dragons, we are told, are hostile to each other. As for motivation, I’d say they do, and that its tied into their personality, though this is more questionable. (to summarize the said thread, I believe that each Elder Dragon has a personality and goal that is shifted towards a single concept of a particular desire – Zhaitan seems, through his minions’ speech, to seek immortality; Jormag offers power and finds those with power to be worthy of his attention; Kralkatorrik and his minions seem to seek obtaining things (whether you consider it greed or seeking perfection is argumentable, imo either can be the case based on how Edge of Destiny describes it); Primordus, though its hard to guess, seems to seek genocide of living things (and would explain why he never corrupts living creatures but instead mimics them in his minions); the deep sea dragon and mordremoth are even harder, but of the little we know I’d guess speculatively that the DSD is seeking to drown the world, while Mordremoth is seeking to, as Thalador put it, enforce natural selection by poisoning the world causing those who cannot handle pain to die out.)

I wouldn’t be surprised that the Elder Dragons don’t speak, though they do show to think (whether or not they have motivation and personality, they do have thoughts – or at least Kralkatorrik and seemingly Zhaitan do, with an implication that Jormag does too). Can a dragon’s mouth and throat duplicate the required tones and pronunciations for the races’ speech? I wouldn’t be surprised if not. But that doesn’t mean they don’t understand speech (after all, they know everything their minions know/knew).

I like these posts the speculations on the relationship between the six and the elder dragons is always interesting. For myself I don’t view them as connected by similar powers but forces of power that are in opposition to one another. The Six came frm another realm bringing humans with them, for all we know the elder dragons could have been Tyria’s gods and the six could have disrupted what they built. Maybe they awoke to cleanse Tyria of mankind, while all the races have suffered men have taken the bulk of the damage drowned kingdoms, enslaved by an undead lich, etc. It could be the elder dragons want to take tyria back, it could be none of that. One thing I’m sure about is I do enjoy the lore with all the talk of the dragons and the six I always wonder about the giants did it ever explain what happened to them? What killed them off? Did they predate the six on Tyria? If so maybe they warred with the elder dragons and lost. Ah I love talking about the lore!

The Giganticus Lupicus disappeared from Tyria back in 10,000 BE, which is assumed to have been an earlier dragon awakening. The only other awakening we know about is the one in which the dwarves, jotun, seer, mursaat, and forgotten dealt with the dragons, and the exact year of this is “unknown.” It seems unlikely that the dragons awoke just to destroy humanity (as a foreign race) because of the fact that the dragons seem to want to destroy all, and their last awakening had nothing to do with humanity. Much of what you mention, sunken continents and enslavement by undead liches were things completely unrelated to the Elder Dragons, because they were the machinations of the god Abaddon. That being said, someone could speculate that if the gods did, in fact, bring the forgotten to the world, this could have been the reason for the last awakening, but in my mind this seems unlikely. The note about the dragons being the original ‘gods’ of Tyria does seem possible to me though. I have always wondered at this point, especially because of the fact that they seem very rooted on Tyria the planet, and they have only just started to look at the mists and making incursions there.

I cannot see the Elder Dragons wanting to remove mankind but not the other races – as Narcemus said the last time they were awake they fought the mursaat, jotun, seer, dwarves, and forgotten. With the possible exception of the forgotten, those races predate the Six Gods’ presence on Tyria. And according to jotun lore, the Elder Dragons are a cycle of destruction – repeatedly killing off (almost) all life on the world.

As for what killed off the Giganticus Lupicus – the Durmand Priory repeatedly say that they went extinct during the last Elder Dragon rise.

There’s also a very distinct difference between Elder Dragon and the gods. Elder Dragons 1) don’t explode when they die (aka their power can be destroyed, but this is not the case for gods, as proven with Abaddon), and 2) while the Six Gods have realms – that is, homes – in the Mists, the Elder Dragons are limited to Tyria except through utilizing portals to the Mists made by others (such as the portals made by norn havrouns, which they get such powers from the Spirits of the Wild). Meaning that the Spirits of the Wild, though killable and edible by the Elder Dragons, are far more divine than the Elder Dragons. So the ED aren’t likely to be some gods, Tyrian-centric or otherwise.

My personal suspicion on what the Elder Dragons are given how unique they are – even to other dragons – would be that they’re some form of magically made eldritch abomination. Possibly naturally formed coalesce of magic gone sentient (said sentience being gained by corrupting living beings, meaning Primordus is the least sentient of all Elder Dragons). Though there’s little to really support this, just that magical hotspots are prone to make elementals out of the land, and the Elder Dragons both radiate and consume magic.

Well, it is not essentially necessary for all “gods” or god-like beings of Tyria to be like the Six. I mean we know that the 6 dragons are equivalent in power to the 6 gods, it is just that for the most part the areas in which they hold power are different. The 6 gods, as well as the spirits of the wild, hold some sway over the fabric of reality (in the sense that they can create portals into the mists, this is also shown through their having of the twin of the Scepter of Orr). The dragons are just as strong, but this is a power that, from what I can tell, they do not have. They are a creation of Tyria itself (or Tyria is a creation of theirs, depending on translation). Obviously this is entirely speculative, but at the same time I can a barren world where Primordius and Bubbles fight largely to create and drown land, while 6th corrupts the land created by Primordius to create vegetative life under his control, and this ends in a titanic battle between forces that in a sense creates the world of Tyria as we know it. During a sleep cycle life evolves, and the dragons evolve as well, it could be an interesting insight into the earliest days of the planet, especially if it started as merely a fractal within the mists and grew from that. Ah sometimes I love just letting my imagination run wild, whether it is true or not

The Scepter of Orr and Staff of the Mists are never said to come from the Six Gods – the only thing on their origin known is that they were gifted to the human kingdoms (never said by whom), and when said human kings became corrupt the gods struck them down and buried the staves with the kings.

I think I made a mistake in one of my posts, About the six Gods being absent. The personal story ( spoilers) reveilled to me that Grenth is still capable of communication, he didn’t leave at all. But maybe he fled? I don’t really know the answer, the thing is that it was never mentioned in the game, neither was the connection between the gods and the dragons, or the capability of speech by the elder dragons ( telepathy maybe ?) it’s all very obscure. What I think that might be some connection between all the elder dragons is their rising in a quick succesive way, wich is either a great coincidence, or evidence there is something that caused this event. What could it be?

Another thing. This is maybe a little bit off the record nut does Anet look at this? This is not a request for an answer from the devs but there are some really interesting posts in the lore category. Some might even be a bit inspiring according to me.

If there is a connection, most likely it has to do with the nature of magic. The human gods, as I understand it, drew their power from the bloodstone, which was meant to store and protect all magic which had not yet been corrupted by the dragons. The dragons consumed all magic they could find. If they thrive on different aspects of magic, it would just mean that they are not in direct competition for food with each other, which would explain how such ravenous creatures could coexist.

Well, the gods had magic before coming to Tyria, because a majority of them ere specified to have been gods on arrival. How much power they may have gained from the bloodstone is speculative at best.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Scepter of Orr and Staff of the Mists are never said to come from the Six Gods – the only thing on their origin known is that they were gifted to the human kingdoms (never said by whom), and when said human kings became corrupt the gods struck them down and buried the staves with the kings.

What if Glint made the 2 Scepters? After all Glint made a prophecy concerning one and the other was found in the Desolation which is the southern half of the Crystal Desert where Glint lives.

It seems unlikely to me that Glint had the power to create something as powerful as those two scepters. I mean she is much less powerful than any of the individual gods, because she is merely a dragon champion, and the Elder Dragons themselves are on par with the gods, according to the lore masters.

then what about either The Elder Dragons or the Seers(creators of the original bloodstone) being the creaters of the 2 Scepters.

I cannot see the Elder Dragons making the two staves – the size is just rofl to consider. Nor can I see why the ELder Dragons, who feast on magic and magical artifacts, would make magical artifacts.

I personally suspect the Orrians made them – just as they made Magdaer and Sohothin and gave them to Ascalonian royalty.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

then what about either The Elder Dragons or the Seers(creators of the original bloodstone) being the creaters of the 2 Scepters.

Nope. Read the wiki on the bloodstone. Elder Dragons pre-date the bloodstone. Also, there’s only ever been one bloodstone, the one created by the Seers. Abaddon just used it.

Kintoun Zetto.2651:

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

then what about either The Elder Dragons or the Seers(creators of the original bloodstone) being the creaters of the 2 Scepters.

Nope. Read the wiki on the bloodstone. Elder Dragons pre-date the bloodstone. Also, there’s only ever been one bloodstone, the one created by the Seers. Abaddon just used it.

Actually, as an addition, upon further research, it is a canonical, conclusive fact that the elder dragons are even older than the 6 gods. Ergo, the dragons are not the gods etc etc.

The dragons are present in Tyria longer than the gods, we don’t have any clue on the age of the gods.