Guild Wars 2

The Charr are a cool race. Their appearance, demeanor, militaristic culture, Roman legion style organization are all very well done. There is one huge problem with Charr lore and that is the Charr as Smiths or metalworkers. That part of Charr lore just doesn’t add up for two reasons.

1. The Charr have huge claws on the ends of their fingers that would make it impossible to do intricate, skilled manual labor. If you disagree, duct-tape sharp sticks or knives to the ends of your fingers an try to bulid a siege engine or pound a piece of metal into an axe blade on an anvil.

2. The Charr are covered with fur and have long furry tails that would prevent them from getting anywhere near a forge or metalworks where there are bits of molten metal or sparks flying everywhere. The fur of any Charr who got near a forge or metalworks would instantly burst into flames or be covered with patches of singed fur if they had any fur left at all.

Lets face it, the Charr are not dwarves nor would they be physically capable of doing what dwarves do, buildings things out of stone, wood and metal. To put it bluntly, the Charr make lousy dwarves. I dont know who came up with the idea of turning the Charr into dwarven craftsmen but it just doesnt work. The only possible scenario I could see would be that the Black Citadel and everything in it was built by human slaves of the Charr. Of course, depending on large numbers of slaves for manual labor has its own set of problems. Often the overworked slaves become stronger than their lazy masters.

I do like the lore of GW2 but the Charr as dwarven crafstmen just doesnt add up. Significant changes are needed to the Charr race to make the idea plausible. Start with reducing their claws to the size of long fingernails and greatly reducing the amount of exposed fur they have on their bodies. Of course if you did that, they wouldnt be Charr anymore would they? And that is the problem.

Every time I see my Charr warrior swinging a sword I wonder how he could grasp his sword without driving those massive claws of his into the palm of his hand. The Charr’s physical limitations would make it impossible to compete militarily or economically with humans. Humans with their smaller, upright stature, manual dexterity, relatively hairless bodies and much smaller hands would be able to out-build, out-craft and out-work the physically primitive, tribal, carnivorous Charr. The Charr would make lousy farmers, leather workers, cooks, jewlers etc. The only thing the charr would be physically capable of doing would be tearing prey to shreds with their huge claws and teeth.

I know this is a high fantasty MMORPG and a very good one but please try to provide some shred of realism to the Charr as Smiths, Craftsmen and metalworkers. Every time I am in the Black Citadel on my Charr warrior, I find myself looking for the humans who actually built the place. Every time I pass by that huge forge, I expect to see Charr with no fur on their bodies.

Maybe in a future expansion, you can bring the dwarves who actually built the Black Citadel out of exile.

Dwarves are not in exile… they are basically extinct (see ending of GW: EN). They either turned to stone (like you know who in the priory) or died in GW1 (namely the rogue faction).

Cancer.9065:

Dwarves are not in exile… they are basically extinct (see ending of GW: EN). They either turned to stone (like you know who in the priory) or died in GW1 (namely the rogue faction).

Ok then who built the Black Citadel? Human Slaves?

It would be physically impossible for the Charr to do it.

The Charr have thumbs, they’ve used tools (weapons) from before humans came to Tyria. Surely, the musculature of their hands has developed to allow precise use of them claws. And it’s not like a spark would light a charr in fire, at worst the charr smith would get a small bald burned spot on his/her fur.

Gentlemen! Behold! The oddest trend on this forum!
Charr racism!
Duct-taping knives to your fingers is not the same as being born and living your entire life with claws. You have literally no experience with clawed hands, so how do you know how dextrous charr are? They likely grip things differently.
Smiths wear protective gear to prevent burns. And you never think about a human or dwarven smith’s hair catching on fire. In fact, dwarven smiths are more likely to have their beards catch on fire than a charr’s fur.

Charr’s are felines aren’t they? Practically all felines have the ability to retract their claws (Cheetahs excluded but that’s because they need them for running.)

DarthAcerbus.3647:

Gentlemen! Behold! The oddest trend on this forum!
Charr racism!
Duct-taping knives to your fingers is not the same as being born and living your entire life with claws. You have literally no experience with clawed hands, so how do you know how dextrous charr are? They likely grip things differently.
Smiths wear protective gear to prevent burns. And you never think about a human or dwarven smith’s hair catching on fire. In fact, dwarven smiths are more likely to have their beards catch on fire than a charr’s fur.

I know many of you have a soft spot for the Charr. I think they were the most requested race by GW2 fans. That does not change the fact that the charr would be physicially incapable of building anything out of metal.

Another problem with being near a forge and being covered with thick, downy fur is heat. Thick fur and the heat from a forge just dont go together. Like I said, the Charr would make lousy dwarves.

And here I thought I was playing a fantasy game…

Sithis.3564:

And here I thought I was playing a fantasy game…

You have a point there. The idea that the Charr would be capable of building the Black Citadel or anything in it out of metal is pure fantasy :P

Atmaweapon.7345:

Charr’s are felines aren’t they? Practically all felines have the ability to retract their claws (Cheetahs excluded but that’s because they need them for running.)

Retractable claws could work. Unfortunately, the claws on the charrs hands cover half of their fingers and do not retract.

The problem is that you aren’t thinking of any work arounds or their already present lore. One of their legions that they’ve had since GW 1 is even called “Flame Legion.”

Having fur doesn’t automatically mean intolerance for heat. As an example of the opposite, there are normal human people who can wear casual T-shirts and shorts out in the cold snow without it bothering them!

As for fur catching on fire, there ARE such things as flame-retardant chemicals and organic compounds. They might (and probably do) excrete some of these into their fur to prevent them from catching on fire.

Atmaweapon.7345:

The problem is that you aren’t thinking of any work arounds or their already present lore. One of their legions that they’ve had since GW 1 is even called “Flame Legion.”

Having fur doesn’t automatically mean intolerance for heat. As an example of the opposite, there are normal human people who can wear casual T-shirts and shorts out in the cold snow without it bothering them!

As for fur catching on fire, there ARE such things as flame-retardant chemicals and organic compounds. They might (and probably do) excrete some of these into their fur to prevent them from catching on fire.

Ever seen a cat or a dog wandering around an active steel mill?

I have seen a cat sitting in front of an open fire that’s spitting sparks without a problem. One even landed on her once and she ran a mile but she didn’t burst into flames.

Fact is it’s surprisingly difficult to light anything with sparks. It can and does happen but it’s far from guarenteed that one spark would set a charr on fire. And as someone else pointed out they could easily have made and used protective gear out of leather or other materials before they started using forges. Same as humans (who are pretty flammable too) in real life.

As for the claws they don’t retract in-game but that’s most likely because it wasn’t worth programming in something like that when the vast majority of players would never notice. The charr are feline and in lore their claws would almost certainly retract.

Also as someone else pointed out experience counts for a lot. I keep my finger nails extremely short because I just can’t do anything if they reach more than a couple of millimeters beyond the ends of my fingers. My sisters reach about 5 or 6cm beyond the end of her fingers and she can do everything I can because she’s used to it.

Charr’s are felines aren’t they? Practically all felines have the ability to retract their claws (Cheetahs excluded but that’s because they need them for running.)

Lore-wise, I’m pretty sure there’s reference in Ghosts of Ascalon to Ember’s claws retracting, because she brings them out when she’s angry or being threatening. With that and thumbs, I don’t see why charr wouldn’t be able to craft, since as Danikat says they are of course used to their own bodies. Also, have you looked at the Citadel lately? The charr may be capable of fine metalwork (you can’t really have guns, even rough guns, without very fine attention to small details) – but they leave their metal in simple sheets riveted together quite often. A lot of what they use is pretty rough. I’d say they don’t bother with craftsmanship unless it’s functional.

Human blacksmiths have hair on their arms, and it’s generally still there after they get done working, either because of protective gear or simple care and expertise. Working near a forge is not like standing in a bonfire. And as Danikat mentions, sparks in fur mean nothing more than a frizzled spot and a terrible smell.

What about REALLY massive heat, like blast furnaces or the huge pit of molten metal in the Black Citadel? Well, very furry creatures are susceptible to heat stroke, yes, but there are many ways to mitigate that. Water comes to mind, as do fans.

The long claws are tricky, sure, but the artwork makes it clear that even the tip of the thumb claw is still opposable to the tips of the fingerclaws, so they can still grasp. The claws would be less sensitive to heat and cold, but presumable they are enervated with a “quick” similar to other clawed mammals, so they have pressure feedback to prevent them from accidentally puncturing or crushing objects. And when it comes to small, delicate work, whatever makes you think that humans use their bare hands for that? A jeweler uses little pliers for almost everything. Depending on how sharp those Charr claws actually are, they might not even need as many tools as a human would…

Have a hard time working tiny controls with your claws? Don’t build machinery with tiny controls. You could build devices only a Charr could operate (easily) by making recessed controls with narrow openings.

And all of the above works without magic even entering the picture. Once you remember that in this world, magic works and magic users are everywhere, many many more answers become apparent. Too hot? Try some water magic. Need to heat up some metal without creating sparks? Channel some fire magic into it. It’s extremely obvious from Asura tech that there are many ways to use magic that our playable characters never touch on.

Frankly, the physical aspects of the Charr race and their technology are the least problematic aspect of their background; the parts that the OP accepts without question are actually the parts that I have the hardest time swallowing. An entire race of wanna-be warriors descended from pure carnivores? You’d never have a stable leadership.

Charr have always had an affinity for fire. It wouldnt be suprising in the least to discover that they had evolved to be resistant to it. Realistikittenhere fur could be resistant to burning and so offer them greater protection than just bare skin.

Like others I have to disagree with the OP here. Charr metalwrkers likely also have a compound they can apply to exposed areas of fur to further reduce danger from burns. Fire retardants are really not new technology.

As for their claws, i believe they are retractable, even if the claws are not, the charr could still design their tools around them. A wider hilt and/or grooves in the hilt to accommodate the claws and they shouldn’t have any difficulty with tools or weapons. If I remember right they use their claws in place of tools when applicable anyway.

Yanno, somewhere in Lion’s Arch there’s a Charr who’s talking about building up a buisness. She actually mentions the occasional scream of a Charr with its tail on fire. I forget all the exact lines. If I find it, I’ll put it here.

gloves mang?

wear thick gloves → claws dont jab you.

They may also use tools with much thicker pommels, giving their hands more stretch (at the cost of slightly less grip)

the char claw is effectivly the same as your finger tip, it is compleatly possible to hold something like a hammer or a sword without your fingeritps touching or even pointing at you palm or wrist

Lol is this post for real, did the OP even think about this before posting.
Protective gear when working near a forge, boom your idea is down the toilet

In a game about an army of Zombie chickens and hypnotized carnies, people actually wonder how Charr can forge stuff?

Kain Francois.4328:

In a game about an army of Zombie chickens and hypnotized carnies, people actually wonder how Charr can forge stuff?

Dude, we’re nerds. What else do you think we’re gonna do?

You know, I would have thought it’s better to have a layer of rough fur than just exposed skin. It’s practically built-in protection – that flying ember lands on your fur rather than your skin.