Guild Wars 2

The way the lore talks about them is they go through cycles of awaking and becoming dormant again. This is my own personal thoughts, what if when the Elder Dragons awake their over all motive isn’t to destroy all life but in their own way preserve it?

The way the lore comes off to me with their awaking cycle they might serve somewhat the same purpose the Reapers did in Mass Effect (without the whole machines turning on their creators and the world ending a red, blue or green explosion).

What if the Elder Dragons intentional or unintentional purpose is to wipe out the dormant life in Tryia leaving only a few behind and giving the chance for other life to flourish.

I know this isn’t going to be the case, they are evil and want to destroy, just a thought.

The Elder Dragons’ motivations is a very peculiar one. There’s many theories and possibilities; I even believe multiple theories on what could be the case.

However, I can’t really see your theory as being likely. Wiping out dominant life to let non-dominant life flourish? If this was the case, then they wouldn’t go about corrupting all life and devouring/absorbing all magic. It’s a fairly round-about way.

Nonetheless, I wouldn’t call them “evil” – not outright. They’re a threat, but unless they’re willingly acting to corrupt and destroy while knowing that doing so is considered “wrong,” they’re not evil. At worst, they’ll likely to be “misguided” – not viewing the races of Tyria as “beings with merit to live” – no different than how humans raise and harvest cattle (the Reapers were, in ME1 and 2, exactly like this – they effectively farmed sentient life, not viewing them to be of merit; what would you say if cows suddenly started a revolt going “you’re evil for killing us!”).

well i’m of the theory that they’re tyria’s reset button, and that eventually they’ll go on their millenar ciesta if we leave them be. problem with “leaving them be” is that they’ll wipe all life on the planet (or at least the tyrian continent) before going back to sleep.

so not really “giving others a fair chance” and more like “let’s start this from scratch”.

but even disregarding their “motives”, they aren’t evil. they’re as evil as a lion killing for food is evil, or a hurricane passing by and destroying a city (ANet’s favorite analogy). it’s their nature to consume and destroy, it’s not like they’re going “bwahahahahah” as they do it.

I would be inclined to believe the “global reset button” theory, if it weren’t for the fact that the Elder Dragons are intelligent, they seem to be in no way working together, and they seem to also have their own motives/ideas of what they want to do with the world.

Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t more Lovecraftian in nature, and they are only considered a “natural phenomena”, simply because they have been around for all of known history.

Natural Phenomena aren’t neccesarily good things. On our own world, natural phenomena has lead to some of the worse mass extintion events we know of.

The EDs are driven by hunger. We, and probably every civilisation they have consumed, has just been either food or in their way. I dont think evil is the right term. They are however potentially our doom and so that makes them enemies no matter what they are.

One curious question that Ive seen a few times pop up in game is what caused the EDs to come about in the first place? I think until we find out that we cant be 100% sure as to the true nature of the EDs.

They are intelligent beings and their actions definitely aren’t for anything that could be considered ‘good’. On awakening the first thing Kralk did was go and kill Glint pretty much because she was no longer under his control. ‘Good’ and ‘evil’ are socially defined, they aren’t concrete things, so Lutinz is right in saying that it isn’t so much about them being evil but rather them being our enemy.

leaving non dominant creature alive like sylvari? that would explain how corruption doesn’t work on them. although i don’t think this is the reason and motive of the dragons.
we’ll see i guess

The nature of the elder dragons always reminded me of… something.

Of course I know which of these two narratives came first… (EOTN/Utopia)

Oh, and good and evil are not socially defined. They are instinctual. Evil is taking away (things, lives, truth). Good is giving back.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Oh, and good and evil are not socially defined. They are instinctual. Evil is taking away (things, lives, truth). Good is giving back.

Not really.

Killing someone in order to rescue the world would be a good thing in most peoples eyes, yet it means “taking away” something which, in with your logic, would be evil?

Good and evil lies in the eye of the beholder.

I’d say that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are definitely socially (or I would say culturally) defined! But anyway, I agree that the EDs’ cycles are very similar to the Reapers, and I agree that they’re not what I’d consider ‘evil’, but I don’t think that a motive of preservation is likely. If it was the case, I’d guess it had a lot more to do with the nature of magic and its effect on the world (it would have to be stuff we don’t currently know about) than with the emergence of races as in the Reaper case. The fact that the dragons absorb or ‘eat’ magic is significant (I’m just not completely sure of why, yet).

Narrative-wise, it’s significant because it’s why extremely powerful past races could fail but our cycle could destroy the dragons (more technology, less magic-dependent than the last cycle) – but in-world, I’m not sure!

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Oh, and good and evil are not socially defined. They are instinctual. Evil is taking away (things, lives, truth). Good is giving back.

By this claim, every single living being on this planet is “evil.”

Carnivores are evil because they kill to eat meat, which they must to survive.

Herbivores are evil because they kill plants and eat them, stealing the fruits and seeds to eat them as well, and again they do because they must if they want to survive.

Omnivores are the same.

Congratulations! You just said “life as we know it is entirely and ultimately evil!” And that includes you!

Welp, folks, Aneirin Cadwell is evil. Lets go end his reign of tyranny!

Please go and get a higher education if you think good and evil are instinctual…
I’m not going to add more on to that, Konig does a pretty good job of it.
(Also whats the whole reapers thing O_o?)

lordkrall.7241:

Not really. Killing someone in order to rescue the world would be a good thing in most peoples eyes, yet it means “taking away” something which, in with your logic, would be evil? Good and evil lies in the eye of the beholder.

You’re adding more complexity than necessary. The situation you described is simply doing something which is inherently evil to prevent future possible evil. Another important point to address is that a person cannot be evil. They can only do evil.

…and I’m working on my fourth year of college, which included honors philosophy in my second year. An education doesn’t alter logic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By this claim, every single living being on this planet is “evil.” Carnivores are evil because they kill to eat meat, which they must to survive. Herbivores are evil because they kill plants and eat them, stealing the fruits and seeds to eat them as well, and again they do because they must if they want to survive. Omnivores are the same. Congratulations! You just said “life as we know it is entirely and ultimately evil!” And that includes you!

Nail on the head. I take it you have a problem with acknowledging that you are capable of both good and evil? The best we can do is maintain a proper balance. Just don’t expect ArenaNet’s dev team to handle that. :P

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

lordkrall.7241:

Not really. Killing someone in order to rescue the world would be a good thing in most peoples eyes, yet it means “taking away” something which, in with your logic, would be evil? Good and evil lies in the eye of the beholder.

You’re adding more complexity than necessary. The situation you described is simply doing something which is inherently evil to prevent future possible evil. Another important point to address is that a person cannot be evil. They can only do evil.

…and I’m working on my fourth year of college, which included honors philosophy in my second year. An education doesn’t alter logic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By this claim, every single living being on this planet is “evil.” Carnivores are evil because they kill to eat meat, which they must to survive. Herbivores are evil because they kill plants and eat them, stealing the fruits and seeds to eat them as well, and again they do because they must if they want to survive. Omnivores are the same. Congratulations! You just said “life as we know it is entirely and ultimately evil!” And that includes you!

Nail on the head. I take it you have a problem with acknowledging that you are capable of both good and evil? The best we can do is maintain a proper balance. Just don’t expect ArenaNet’s dev team to handle that. :P

and despite that, you have a very poor and naive definition of good and evil. do you honestly think that an animal that kills to feed himself is “doing something evil”?

but that’s beyond the topic.

Simple =/= “poor and naieve.” There’s genius in simplicity. After so many years of considering a thing — ‘good and evil’ included — one eventually breaks all aspects of a subject down to its root parts and comes full circle to very uncompelling arguments. From using details and examples to prove something… to simply understanding it and allowing others to achieve realization on their own… which is usually the best way to learn.

Yeah we’re getting rather sidetracked here…

Ah, Aneirin, a philosopher – that somewhat explains it. You are entitled to your arguments and your conclusions, but I don’t think the logic is based on anything absolute here. You are positing a specific definition of evil, which is fine (there is no absolute definition that we would agree on), but you can’t claim to prove that something is evil because it fits the definition of evil you’ve just posited. In short, this argument isn’t going to go anywhere, I think!

Let’s not harass Aneirin because we don’t agree with him/her, ok? It’s an unanswerable question.

Curuniel is right. This argument is evil because it’s taking away my time. Let’s take away this argument so that it can’t take any more of it… :P

~walks away scratching head~

By most standards the dragons and their minions are evil. They do not accommodate anyone or anything else in their world view. You must become their slave or die. They enjoy killing those who do not serve them. Everything is reformed in their image through corruption. They will destroy or corrupt anything to sate their desires. If the dragons have their own virtues then those virtues are not recognizable to the playable races. Any free race that wants to preserve their lives, culture, laws, homes, art, history, families, crops, nation, or anything else will see the dragons as an evil threat.

Even if the dragons have a natural purpose that drives them to act the way they do, unable to achieve their ends by any other means, all the playable races will perceive the elder dragons as utterly evil.

Evil and good are words we use. What they mean are entirely up to us.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Nail on the head. I take it you have a problem with acknowledging that you are capable of both good and evil? The best we can do is maintain a proper balance. Just don’t expect ArenaNet’s dev team to handle that. :P

The capability to do both good and evil != evil is innately natural and at the same time the capability to do good and evil != any form of taking away is evil.

That is just your opinion of what construes as “evil” – just as I have my own view on what is good and what is evil, and how to define it. “Good” and “evil” isn’t natural, if it were then there’d be no subjectivity to it. It’d be absolutes. To you, what is good may not be so to me; and similarly, what is evil to me may not be so for FlamingFoxx.

Your very definition of what counts as evil marks all life in existence as evil, and since all life performs evil for the sole sake of not starving to death, no life in existence can be good, because they perform evil tasks at least three times a day on an average basis. And furthermore, in order to gain something, you must take away from somewhere – as you cannot create out of thin air. Therefore if “taking” is evil, then “giving” would be good, however if you give then someone else takes. By trying to be good, you are making others evil by your “simple” definition. And in turn, by making someone else do evil, that in of itself would be taking their right to not do evil, therefore making you evil. In other words, there is no such thing as a “good” action in your definition of good and evil – everything we can do is nothing but evil. Even if we sugercoat it as something good.

Fairly pessimistic when we use your philosophy. But that’s why it is your philosophy rather than mine. In a similar manner, I told a friend about my philosophy on life and religion, and while I view it as resulting in a carpe diem view of the world, he goes “that’s very nihilistic…”

Anyways, as someone who has a peculiar interest in Philosophy as well, I will state that you are making one entirely fatal flaw in your statement of what construes good and evil, and that is that you refuse to admit the subjectivity of it. You believe you have “the answer” which makes you arrogant and viewed as egotistical. Ironically, this is how I’m often viewed in regards to lore theories (for various reasons, some of which I cannot legally mention!).

Seriously, this feels somewhat off topic. To start with Im guessing we are using a rather generalised definition of ‘evil’ making phylosophical discussions rather difficult.

To avoid the drawn out complexities of arguing ‘Whats the definition of Evil’ lets make the question simple by say ‘To our characters, who have limited awareness of the nature of Azeroth, are the EDs evil’. Now from that we can ask ‘What are the EDs and why are they consuming all magic?’.

It could be very possible that their existance is to balance out some other distructive force we are unaware of because of their existance. Perhaps if they dont consume magic, the magical energies in the world build up to dangerous levels.

Since we know so little its hard to say if there actions are ‘evil’ for the fate of the world. We can say their actions are ‘evil’ to our characters. However, weither the EDs are ‘evil’ themselves really depends on their state of mind. Rarely to people consider themselves ‘evil’ for steping on an ant, pulling up a weed or clearing out mould but to the EDs that could be effectively what we are. Perhaps to them we are ‘evil’. After all ‘evil’ depends on perspective.

If u read 2nd book on mind set of elder dragon. Snaff said they are beings fead by an all consuming hunger and hatred of live. An empty void that can never be filled. So he bated the elder dragon Kraggy by being happy and content with his life. And so he died with glint cause the human queen its a mesmerizing kitten. dead elder dragon or human queen which out come would u prefer? What military advantage does ebinhawk provide none. Stupid kitten for going their in first place. I’m the queen let be visit the battle front. I’m surprised how calculating zitain is comparably though.

Technically, Fafnir, that’s only Kralkatorrik. And all that really tells us is that Kralkatorrik is – for some reason innate in his psyche – driven to consume/corrupt.

I have personally taken it to be that each Elder Dragon holds a specific “quality” which they exemplify, multiplied. Jormag and the icebrood have an overwhelming mention of power and strength (which is why the Sons of Svanir are drawn to them); Kralkatorrik via EoD shows an overwhelming desire to obtain (greed); Primordus’ minions have been shown to do nothing but kill and destroy, the Great Destroyer’s purpose of rising early was to wipe out all life on the surface to make way for Primordus, indicating a desire to kill/cause genocide; Zhaitan’s minions often talk about immortality and/or avoidance of the Mists and death through Zhaitan’s favor. It’s interesting, that you get:

Primordus: Desires genocide
Jormag: Desires power
Kralkatorrik: Desires obtaining things (can be viewed as exemplifying greed, or reaching for perfection as a definition of perfection is to be/have everything)
Zhaitan: Desires immortality

Deep Sea Dragon and Jungle Dragon are near impossible to really pull from, given the lack of information, but if my theory that the krait’s prophets are the DSD and its champions, and that the Jungle Dragon is influencing the Nightmare Court via the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams, then they could be “flooding the world” and “empowerment through surviving pain” respectively.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, Fafnir, that’s only Kralkatorrik. And all that really tells us is that Kralkatorrik is – for some reason innate in his psyche – driven to consume/corrupt.

I have personally taken it to be that each Elder Dragon holds a specific “quality” which they exemplify, multiplied. Jormag and the icebrood have an overwhelming mention of power and strength (which is why the Sons of Svanir are drawn to them); Kralkatorrik via EoD shows an overwhelming desire to obtain (greed); Primordus’ minions have been shown to do nothing but kill and destroy, the Great Destroyer’s purpose of rising early was to wipe out all life on the surface to make way for Primordus, indicating a desire to kill/cause genocide; Zhaitan’s minions often talk about immortality and/or avoidance of the Mists and death through Zhaitan’s favor. It’s interesting, that you get:

Primordus: Desires genocide
Jormag: Desires power
Kralkatorrik: Desires obtaining things (can be viewed as exemplifying greed, or reaching for perfection as a definition of perfection is to be/have everything)
Zhaitan: Desires immortality

Deep Sea Dragon and Jungle Dragon are near impossible to really pull from, given the lack of information, but if my theory that the krait’s prophets are the DSD and its champions, and that the Jungle Dragon is influencing the Nightmare Court via the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams, then they could be “flooding the world” and “empowerment through surviving pain” respectively.

that’s a pretty interesting view on the dragons.

If the Elder Dragons are not evil, why do they need an army? Why do they need to corrupt other beings to begin with? Why do they manipulate other beings into doing their bidding?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If the Elder Dragons are not evil, why do they need an army? Why do they need to corrupt other beings to begin with? Why do they manipulate other beings into doing their bidding?

If humankind is not evil, why do they need an army? Why do they need to corrupt other being to begin with? Why do they manipulate other being into doing their bidding?

So I take it, it is safe to assume that humankind is evil then?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If the Elder Dragons are not evil, why do they need an army? Why do they need to corrupt other beings to begin with? Why do they manipulate other beings into doing their bidding?

If something does not know how to do something other than to try to make everything like themselves, does that mean it is evil? Is a Totalitarian Utilitarian or Well-Intentioned Extremist evil? Some say yes, some say no; some still – or rather, everyone whether they realize it or not – say it depends on the situation.

I mean, we know what the Elder Dragons are doing – they’re twisting things to become fanatical devotees of themselves – but we don’t know why. When considering whether the Elder Dragons are “evil” or not really boils down to two things:

1. Does the end justify the means? In this case, we know the means is pretty darn evil. But what’s the Elder Dragons’ intended end and why reach there?
2. Are the Elder Dragons even capable of acting otherwise? Can they be negotiated with, turned away from their current path, somehow redeemed (but perhaps refusing to do so), or are they just incapable of acting unlike how they are now?

Whether or not the Elder Dragons are evil really depends on these two questions.

You can kind of do the same with with Canach. Is Canach evil? Misguided, for sure, but evil? The Elder Dragons can very much be akin to him – trying to do something good for the world, but causing harm to the inhabitants of the world instead (or “as well”).

This makes me wonder if there could be EDs that arent destructive. If they are just acting according to their nature there is the possibility for Dragons to exist that arent fixated on assimilation or distruction unless the cause of why the EDs do what they do effects all dragons.

We still don’t know how Kuunavang fits into the larger picture.

The Elder Dragons are not inherently good or evil. Someone paving over a bunch of anthills to build a parking lot isn’t evil, nor is the parking lot he killed all those ants for good. The way I see it the dragons are sentient forces of nature and their endgame is to reshape the world in their image. Not surprisingly, for the sentient races of Tyria this kind of blows.

Let me elaborate on what I mean when I say that the EDs want to reshape the world in their image: As Konig has already pointed out, each ED we have (at least somewhat) definitive information on has shown to have a certain way of going about things. Based on their actions, we can speculate on what each dragon’s endgame is.

Primordus has a knack for destruction and doesn’t need anything beyond rocks (which Tyria has plenty of) to raise his armies of, wait for it, destroyers! Since he does not require any living beings for his plan, it’s a safe bet they’re part of the to-destroy list, ideally culminating in Primordus perched atop a throne of live destroyers amidst the lifeless, volcano-strewn landscape.

Jormag offers power to those who want it, but is also capable of corrupting living beings who are already dead (cue that norn with the smashed-in head). The fact he’s willing to even bother with those pesky worshippers of his, or even further, offer them incentive to worship him, shows that his vision of (a very frosty) Tyria includes only those who worship him. We can surmise that Jormag wants a world where he is universally worshipped as the epitome of strength, all other qualities and virtues be kitten ed. Anyone not getting with the program could expect to either be killed, forcibly corrupted or (personal favourite) killed, corrupted and raised into his service. Seems everyone is included, one way or the other.

Zhaitan is rather tricky to figure out. His minions blather on and on about joining the dragon and avoiding death/the afterlife. Seems he has a really big gripe with the human gods (their corrupted priests claim he eats gods). Perhaps a hint of jealousy in there? His plan could very well have been to kill/raise everything in Tyria and lord over it as a god himself, the sole source of life (endless, until he sees fit otherwise)/death and anything in between

Kralkatorrik’s motivations are unclear, as we know comparatively little about him and it’s difficult to gleam any long-term goal from his actions immediately after waking. He wanted revenge for Glint’s betrayal and needed to raise some minions to do that, that more or less accounts for the dragonbrand. We don’t know where he’s gone afterward or for what purpose. Snaff’s quick journey into the dragon’s mind doesn’t offer much insight without any comparable trek through another ED’s mind. What Snaff sees is hunger, and a lot of it, but aren’t all dragons meant to be like that? It could be that he needs a dragon-sized magical bagel, or it could be the main force that drives him.

In any case, there is nothing inherently evil in what the EDs want/do. From the player’s point of view, sure, they’re evil because they aim to kill us. For the EDs we’re just varying degrees of “in the way”. They don’t stomp our relatives and break our toys because it’s funny, they just don’t give two kittens about us, in much the same way you don’t carefully avoid stepping on any ants every minute of your life.

Most genocides begin with identifying a group as separate and inferior. Because Tyria has multiple races groups of division naturally occur. The Dragons through their power naturally see them selves as superior.

Hate to point this out: Humans think almost nothing of animals they kill for food/sport this is mindset that leads to genocide

Animal propaganda is used for many human genocides

Not like we ever talked to an elder dragon to figure out there mind set or what drives them and probably never will.

“If something does not know how to do something other than to try to make everything like themselves, does that mean it is evil? "

The elder dragons have more awareness of the world than most creatures. They are intelligent. They seem to have free will. They have knowledge of the culture of other races and the Gods. Yet they unrelentingly perform evil acts so we must assume they are evil. If however there is secret evidence that their nature is unalterable and their nature compels them to perform only evil acts then yes they are still evil. In any way that an agency or tool could be considered evil the dragons would be considered evil.

Awareness and intelligence doesn’t mean you can’t stop instinctual action. “You still need to eat and sleep right? But you’re intelligent and self-aware! You shouldn’t need to do that to live!” It’s kind of like that, how I see your response to my question.

The Elder Dragons eat magic, and effective crap out corruption. As far as we can know, them acting “evil” is no different then you eating an apple then going to the bathroom a few hours later. I wouldn’t call that evil.

Mind you, I doubt that is what’s actually happening, but it is very much possible.

While it is true the Dragons seem to have knowledge of the cultures of these races, I still believe they are more of a force of nature than a force of evil.
From their perspectives we are probably nothing more than ants. Sure we obviously build things of note to us, but that isn’t of the slightest interests to them.

Now is that evil from our PoV? Well yes because we see them as evil, but they are just doing their own thing. Would this mean I side with them? Nope because I will do anything to protect my culture.

“While it is true the Dragons seem to have knowledge of the cultures of these races, I still believe they are more of a force of nature than a force of evil.”

There is nothing to stop them being both at the same time.

I’m surprised that so many posters want to believe in a higher concept that rides above all the evidence of the evil acts by dragon minions within the game. The evidence is shown in every meeting with dragon minions withing the game, in every zone, in every dungeon, in all dialog, in every story line. When Svanir and corrupted minions storm the Honor of the Waves they are not just ensuring the survival of Jormag, the storyline explicitly demonstrates the evil nature of those minions.

But they’re only evil from our point of view. Have you ever killed a bug? Does that make you evil? A genocidal maniac perhaps? A force of nature and evil all rolled into one fly-swatting machine.

“But they’re only evil from our point of view.”

Right! Our (character’s) point of view is the only view that matters. We can talk we like about whether Klingons and Romulans think Elder Dragons are evil but it’s all irrelevant. The only point of view that matters is that seen by our fictional characters in our storyline. There’s no need to go into deep philosophy of what some imaginary characters might think of other imaginary characters. The context of our shared discussion is based on our shared understanding of the stories presented to us in game and those stories show evidence of unrelenting evil.

Actually, they’re not even necessarily evil from our characters’ point of view – most NPCs view them as a literal force of nature. Something that’s supposed to happen – kind of like they’re a physical manifestation of Fate. And though they may be intelligent, this is still possibly true.

But even if it isn’t, we only view them as evil because we only see their actions, not their reason. While one may think that’s an objective way to look at it, that’s not really true. To determine if someone’s guilty in a trial, the judge and jury must not only look at what was one, but why it was done. If that weren’t the case, then killing in self-defense would be irrevocably evil.

The Elder Dragons are not exempt from this fact. We know their actions – and their actions in of themselves are indeed on the evil side of the moral scale – but we know nothing of their action; and just like how killing can be deemed “not evil” in certain circumstances, so too could the Elder Dragons’ actions.

“Actually, they’re not even necessarily evil from our characters’ point of view – most NPCs view them as a literal force of nature. Something that’s supposed to happen – kind of like they’re a physical manifestation of Fate. "

I don’t accept that at all. Dragon Bash seems to represent a majority opinion that elder dragons are evil and should die.

“But even if it isn’t, we only view them as evil because we only see their actions, not their reason. "

While their reasons are unknown we can only judge them on their actions. Their actions are not only evil in effect but they are evil in design and evil in execution. They recruit and create servants that perform evil acts in their name. To use your analogy, a courtroom would convict a criminal if the evidence was present but no motive could be established.

I saw nothing in Dragon Bash that said “they are evil!” Rather, all I saw was “they are a threat that we must overcome!”

Threat != evil

Regarding the “evil in design and execution” – the former of that, design, is really subjective as well. How does something become “evil in design”? And how are the Elder Dragon’s actions such? Zhaitan, for example, corrupts corpses, and Primordus the land. Those acts in of themselves are far from evil. If they viewed the races of Tyria as a plague – as a threat to themselves and are merely acting in retaliation and/or in preemptive strikes against what they view to be a threat to their well being – which, by the way, if we were to take the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s words as truth regarding “Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are – and you must die!” as truthful, then that is exactly what they’re doing. Attacking the races out of self-preservation.

And about “evil in execution” – again, how does one define what’s evil in execution. By killing someone? Again, self-defense comes into play. As just one example.

It seems to me that you’re looking at this in a very one-dimension view, thinking of only white and black, at only one side of the argument of how to define something evil or not. There’s just far too many unknowns and variables, all lying in the Elder Dragon’s pscyhe – their view on the world, their reason for their action, and whether or not they are even capable of not doing their current actions.

And if you really think about it, what’s the pattern of events here with the Elder Dragons? They wake up causing mass destruction (not their fault, they’re just rising from slumber!); they attack primarily in retaliation, at first only killing those who enter their territory (little more than a territorial animal like wolves); and for centuries they’re actually avoiding their spread of influence (for whatever reason). Only Primordus had pre-emptively attacked the races, while Kralkatorrik is arguable, depending on the reason/exact cause of the Dragonbrand (it was certainly not a passive action as we were first led to believe, but was his goal to brand the entire land? He was after Glint, who betrayed him, so I doubt that he was intent on killing hundreds as he reached her).

I haven’t yet finished reading Sea of Sorrows so I don’t know if it’s mentioned that Zhaitan made a pre-emptive strike against the races, but nonetheless, other than Primordus no Elder Dragon has, to my knowledge, made the attack first. So in effect, all of their actions could be solely in self-defense!

Stooperdale.3560:

While their reasons are unknown we can only judge them on their actions. Their actions are not only evil in effect but they are evil in design and evil in execution. They recruit and create servants that perform evil acts in their name. To use your analogy, a courtroom would convict a criminal if the evidence was present but no motive could be established.

So the dragons are evil, that must make us the good guys, right?

Let’s be judged on our actions and not our motivations! We gave Khilbron the Scepter of Orr. We protected innocents on the way to their sacrifice. Loosed the titans? Whoops. Palawa Joko? He was our ally, guess we’re super evil at this point. Let’s just forget the whole Guild Wars and the countless deaths when we ran out of other threats.

The asura, who secretly desire to dominate all races on Tyria, it’s not like a whole faction of them are trying to harness the powers of the EDs to this end. How evil could they be, really?

The Charr conducted genocide in Ascalon and worshipped the Titans, not even a hint of evil there.

I guess the Norn get a pass here, as serving Jormag isn’t a central part of their culture. The Sylvari are too new and just haven’t had time to slip up yet, I expect great evil from our salady friends.

So I ask you, if we’re the good guys, just how bad does that make the EDs?

lordkrall.7241:

If humankind is not evil, why do they need an army? Why do they need to corrupt other being to begin with? Why do they manipulate other being into doing their bidding?

So I take it, it is safe to assume that humankind is evil then?

That argument really doesn’t hold any water, since human kind is defending itself, while the Dragons are attacking. They are quite obviously the aggressor. And humans don’t manipulate others to make them their mindless servants.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan, for example, corrupts corpses, and Primordus the land. Those acts in of themselves are far from evil.

In what reality is corrupting the land and other beings not considered to be an evil act?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That argument really doesn’t hold any water, since human kind is defending itself, while the Dragons are attacking. They are quite obviously the aggressor. And humans don’t manipulate others to make them their mindless servants.

Oh?
I see quite a few human aggressors as well, both in game and out in the real world.
That would mean they are evil, doesn’t it?

I assume you have not read Edge of Destiny?
Or Mesmer’s overall are quite adapt at “manipulating others” to make them mindless servants.
This is also seen quite a bit in the real world where people are manipulating other through love or power.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In what reality is corrupting the land and other beings not considered to be an evil act?

So, human beings in the real world are evil then? Because we are quite clearly corrupting the land and other beings.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That argument really doesn’t hold any water, since human kind is defending itself, while the Dragons are attacking. They are quite obviously the aggressor. And humans don’t manipulate others to make them their mindless servants.

I didn’t know obvious aggressors only defended their territory. I guess Branded are mindless aggressors of pure outright evil for fighting only those who enter the Dragonbrand.

Don’t enter the Dragonbrand, and you won’t be fighting Branded. Interesting concept. Totally makes the Branded pure unrelenting evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan, for example, corrupts corpses, and Primordus the land. Those acts in of themselves are far from evil.

In what reality is corrupting the land and other beings not considered to be an evil act?

Let’s stop using the word corrupting for a minute, because all that really means in the Elder Dragons’ sense is “turning into a minion”

In the statement I said, there is no “other being” – just dead bodies. Those beings are no longer related to the body. It’s just a lifeless husk. Is it evil for a necromancer to use a corpse to make an undead minion? Or a doctor to study a cadaver? Is it evil to cut down trees to use them for lumber? Or polluting the air from using machines?That’s little different than what I was saying in those two cases.

I’m merely playing devil’s advocate, but I think folks are too quick to judge and solely relying on the view of the races, who suffer first from side-effects.

Fox to answer your question on the reapers they are a robotic race in the mass effect series that every 50,000 years would come and systematically annihilate all intelligent life throughout the galaxy. They would also corrupt and influence living beings as agents or use them as foot soldiers. I do not want to get to Ito it in case anyone here is playing/interested in the series, but the comparison is similar with the EDs because they are a super powerful race that tends to wipe out life for unknown purposes(find out why the reapers do at the end of ME3) I would highly advise playing the series tho the end of 3 kinda sucked kitten…but the gameplay/lore/story are fantastic for it

I note with interest that someone on the GW2 Wikipedia page describes the ED as a “Lovecraftian” species…in other words, an extraterrestrial force utterly disinterested in the lesser races it encounters. Tyria’s peoples are no more than prey to them.

The expression comes from the works of horror legend H.P. Lovecraft, and it does seem to describe the ED somewhat.

Thoughts?

I thought the Elder Dragons were just natural forces, like gravity, natural disasters and so on. The appear maybe as magic grows and builds up. Not necessarily goal oriented towards destroying life. More so just not caring enough to avoid destroying those that get in their way or actively harnessing life forms of Tyria as tools to harvest magic for them.

Fey Zeal.7032:

I thought the Elder Dragons were just natural forces, like gravity, natural disasters and so on. The appear maybe as magic grows and builds up. Not necessarily goal oriented towards destroying life. More so just not caring enough to avoid destroying those that get in their way or actively harnessing life forms of Tyria as tools to harvest magic for them.

Remarks made by Zephyrite NPC’s aboard their vessel would indeed seem to bear that out. But the overall feel of our personal storyline gives the ED’s a definitely malevolent feel. Zhaitan is furious that the peoples of Tyria are banding together to defy him and his fellow dragons.

Yeah, for natural forces, these dragons are not making a very friendly impression. Keep in mind that unlike an actual natural force, these creatures are aware that they are destroying civilizations and driving them from their lands. They know what they are doing, and they are strategically trying to kill us all. I think it’s a bit hard to not call them evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, for natural forces, these dragons are not making a very friendly impression. Keep in mind that unlike an actual natural force, these creatures are aware that they are destroying civilizations and driving them from their lands. They know what they are doing, and they are strategically trying to kill us all. I think it’s a bit hard to not call them evil.

Humans tend to kill all sorts of insects and animals, does that mean humans are evil?