Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, for natural forces, these dragons are not making a very friendly impression. Keep in mind that unlike an actual natural force, these creatures are aware that they are destroying civilizations and driving them from their lands. They know what they are doing, and they are strategically trying to kill us all. I think it’s a bit hard to not call them evil.

are the elder dragons driving the humans from the humans land or are the reclaiming there land that the humans have stolen from them?
if the are reclaiming then the dragons are not evil for takeing back what is rightfully theres to begin with, that would be the same as if someone when in and toke your house when you where at work, now in your chase you would be evil to take it back.
will you not try kill something or in another way make it so someone you know are out trying to kill you would have the least chances or would make it impossible for them if you could?

This isn’t like for example the way humans took the Charr lands, and the Charr then took it back. The Elder Dragons have been asleep for a very long time, often lying buried underneath rocks and soil as the world continued around them. None of the races took the lands from them, because they weren’t living in them in the first place. They were asleep. And when they woke up, they made sure to drive the other races away with their armies. Keep in mind that the Elder Dragons have been building armies long before the humans were even aware of them. Take Primordus for example, who was already building his army of Destroyers. It is very clear that they started a war against the other races, and made no attempt to live in harmony.

You can’t compare this with humans versus insects, because insects live short lives to begin with. They are food for the rest of the life on the planet, and it has always been that way. Humans killing insects does not change anything about the role of insects in nature. And insects aren’t self aware, or intelligent.

The Elder Dragons are quite aware that the other races ARE intelligent, and that they ARE self aware. They’ve been secretly building their armies to wipe us all out, and a peaceful solution was never attempted. They are quite obviously evil.

I don’t know about the other dragons (they might be neutral or such), but if the Sovereign Eye is of any indications, Zhaitan seems to like toying with his enemies emotionally…
by invoking the name of your Order mentor, and telling you that they're waiting for you.
Last I checked, that’s a pretty mean thing to do, even if you’re a literal force of nature.

Eldrake.1543:

I don’t know about the other dragons (they might be neutral or such), but if the Sovereign Eye is of any indications, Zhaitan seems to like toying with his enemies emotionally…
by invoking the name of your Order mentor, and telling you that they're waiting for you.
Last I checked, that’s a pretty mean thing to do, even if you’re a literal force of nature.

Or it is an offering, but people assume it is teasing.

Also, several of Zhaitan’s minions welcome their death and don’t seem that happy being undead slaves to this dragon. Slavery is bad hmmkay? That’s an evil act.

Sea of Sorrows provides a interesting lines from the risen about Zhaitan’s goal, view, and promises.

Kind of gives a different view, to me at least, on the goals and personality of the Elder Dragons. Conflicting ones, even. But it certainly seems that they have their own intelligence, will, goal, motivation, and desire to survive.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, several of Zhaitan’s minions welcome their death and don’t seem that happy being undead slaves to this dragon. Slavery is bad hmmkay? That’s an evil act.

Disagree. On the “welcoming their death” part. It doesn’t seem that way to me at all, even from the death cries of the mook risen in the games, and especially when adding in Sea of Sorrow’s risen personalities.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Disagree. On the “welcoming their death” part. It doesn’t seem that way to me at all, even from the death cries of the mook risen in the games, and especially when adding in Sea of Sorrow’s risen personalities.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t various Risen utter things like “release me” and such when dying? I can’t quite remember the quotes. But I seem to remember them saying things about welcoming death when you kill them. I could of course be entirely misremembering. And you tend to have a better memory for these things than I do.

The lines that refer to the Elder Dragons sharing the pain of their defeated champions is interesting. I did not know that.

I haven’t really fought Risen recently (while paying attention to what they say) so I don’t recall all of their death lines. But all I recall is “The light fades…” and “Rest…” for death calls. The former sounds like not wanting to die, the later sounds like them just being exhausted, which seems little different than if a living person were to die.

(for the record, my memory is good for things I see, not things I hear… I tend to forget a lot of things I hear but don’t see 8D).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This isn’t like for example the way humans took the Charr lands, and the Charr then took it back. The Elder Dragons have been asleep for a very long time, often lying buried underneath rocks and soil as the world continued around them. None of the races took the lands from them, because they weren’t living in them in the first place. They were asleep. And when they woke up, they made sure to drive the other races away with their armies. Keep in mind that the Elder Dragons have been building armies long before the humans were even aware of them. Take Primordus for example, who was already building his army of Destroyers. It is very clear that they started a war against the other races, and made no attempt to live in harmony.

You can’t compare this with humans versus insects, because insects live short lives to begin with. They are food for the rest of the life on the planet, and it has always been that way. Humans killing insects does not change anything about the role of insects in nature. And insects aren’t self aware, or intelligent.

The Elder Dragons are quite aware that the other races ARE intelligent, and that they ARE self aware. They’ve been secretly building their armies to wipe us all out, and a peaceful solution was never attempted. They are quite obviously evil.

so you say that you know if the land is not zhiatans that we have taken from him will he sleeps and when he then wakes up finding that this had happened should not grow angry and claim it back.
your looking at it with the human standard of time and that you cant as a elder dragon most likely dont use that standard of time given there long sleep and all, there day could be each time they rise and then each time the goes away agien is night time for them. if that would be true then it would be the same as someone going into your land takeing it from you when you sleep and then when you try to claim it back your evil and they are good. what if zhiatan is not trying to eradicate the races but trying to give them what they want instead(eternal life, reunited with friends and famile lost to death) and hes useing the only way he knows of and it might be the right way for him(i know hes inside the minds of the risen he makes but that could be a safty for not creating intearnal strif)

then agien the elder dragons could also represent our gravest sins manifested.
if we could fighere out how magic where made then that could also be a possiblity we need to look at, atleast if magic is from emotions of some kind, that could make the dragons our sins and some othere beings like the gods or something else could then be our virtues of some sort that we all draw power from that would also be a possiblety but thats only given that magic is from emotions or something simular that generats it in the living tings of the world

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, for natural forces, these dragons are not making a very friendly impression. Keep in mind that unlike an actual natural force, these creatures are aware that they are destroying civilizations and driving them from their lands. They know what they are doing, and they are strategically trying to kill us all. I think it’s a bit hard to not call them evil.

Humans tend to kill all sorts of insects and animals, does that mean humans are evil?

are You murdering the whole nations of ants with the whole planning how to destroy each of them? O.o

Some of the recent statements about the Elder Dragons by the writing team, make me think that none of the dragons really care at all about the beings they crush. They are like ants to them.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

are You murdering the whole nations of ants with the whole planning how to destroy each of them? O.o

Isn’t that no different than taking ant killer and spraying it on an anthill?

Or just taking a hose and doing the same?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Some of the recent statements about the Elder Dragons by the writing team, make me think that none of the dragons really care at all about the beings they crush. They are like ants to them.

that is most likely true hey humans have done the same thing in thousands of years to each other, many of the European colony country’s placed them self as human beings and anyone else as subhuman beings out in the world, that is done to make you loss all remorse with making genocide of them or killing most and making the rest slaves as they are not humans like you or me they are something below that.

if you apply that mentality to the dragons why should it care if it killed a few nations or races along the way as they are only sub beings or animals in its eyes

But this still brings us back to the original question. Are the Elder Dragons evil? They crush us like we were ants, and in the eyes of the other races, this is of course an evil act. In the eyes of the dragons however, we may be nothing more than insects, and thus the morality of such an act is not even questioned. In fact, the dragons may not have a morality to begin with, and probably wouldn’t share our morality if they did.

Does it really matter how the dragons view their own actions, regarding the question if they are evil or not? Does someone have to consciously be making an evil decision, in order for the person to be considered evil? Aren’t some actions morally wrong by default, such as eradicating and displacing whole civilizations?

I’d call the Elder Dragons amoral.

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, for natural forces, these dragons are not making a very friendly impression. Keep in mind that unlike an actual natural force, these creatures are aware that they are destroying civilizations and driving them from their lands. They know what they are doing, and they are strategically trying to kill us all. I think it’s a bit hard to not call them evil.

Humans tend to kill all sorts of insects and animals, does that mean humans are evil?

Yes. See? That was easy to answer.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But this still brings us back to the original question. Are the Elder Dragons evil? They crush us like we were ants, and in the eyes of the other races, this is of course an evil act. In the eyes of the dragons however, we may be nothing more than insects, and thus the morality of such an act is not even questioned. In fact, the dragons may not have a morality to begin with, and probably wouldn’t share our morality if they did.

Does it really matter how the dragons view their own actions, regarding the question if they are evil or not? Does someone have to consciously be making an evil decision, in order for the person to be considered evil? Aren’t some actions morally wrong by default, such as eradicating and displacing whole civilizations?

evil is a mathere of perspectiv and the moral codex trown on to you by your community nothing else same with good, so anything can be evil and anything can be good.
so the elder dragons action can be seen as evil yes and they most likely is from our prespectiv but they are most likely good in there perspective if they have a moral codex but given the fact they normally are a lone type of enemy then they might not even have a moral codex to begin with as there is no rules in a groupe they need to adept to(atleast not that we know of)

Drakkon.4782:

Yes. See? That was easy to answer.

Indeed, but yet the Mad Queen does not agree with it, so clearly there are different standards for different species.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t really fought Risen recently (while paying attention to what they say) so I don’t recall all of their death lines. But all I recall is “The light fades…” and “Rest…” for death calls. The former sounds like not wanting to die, the later sounds like them just being exhausted, which seems little different than if a living person were to die.

(for the record, my memory is good for things I see, not things I hear… I tend to forget a lot of things I hear but don’t see 8D).

I’m pretty sure many of them are glad for release. You forgot their line of “At last…” which is not ambiguous but quite definite on their view on their own undeath in the last moment of reclaimed clarity – when Zhaitan’s remote control curse lifts from their mind.

In light of this, I’m inclined to believe that “Rest…” is also an exclamation of joyous freedom from torment. The risen were snidely denied of their rest (the souls of some were snatched from the Mists even) after all. They can finally depart and be at peace.

Maybe the dragons are just psychotic?

Kralkatorrik is apparently obsessed with “perfection”, so it’s possible he is just an obsessive compulsive psycho.

My point is that if the Dragons are amoral (they have no morals), then the only way to judge their actions is by our own morals. And in that respect, yes they are evil.

Unless our morals would take into account their morals in which they’d be amoral still.

I think of the elder dragons as forces of nature like a tornado or a tsunami. For the most part nothing good will come of them and if there is anything we can do to minimize or prevent their effects of course we would do it but from a rational standpoint they are not evil or good, they just are.

Thalador.4218:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t really fought Risen recently (while paying attention to what they say) so I don’t recall all of their death lines. But all I recall is “The light fades…” and “Rest…” for death calls. The former sounds like not wanting to die, the later sounds like them just being exhausted, which seems little different than if a living person were to die.

(for the record, my memory is good for things I see, not things I hear… I tend to forget a lot of things I hear but don’t see 8D).

I’m pretty sure many of them are glad for release. You forgot their line of “At last…” which is not ambiguous but quite definite on their view on their own undeath in the last moment of reclaimed clarity – when Zhaitan’s remote control curse lifts from their mind.

In light of this, I’m inclined to believe that “Rest…” is also an exclamation of joyous freedom from torment. The risen were snidely denied of their rest (the souls of some were snatched from the Mists even) after all. They can finally depart and be at peace.

But their souls are free zhaitan just keeps the body and mind then throws out the soul except for champions like the eyes of zhaitan

Thalador.4218:

I’m pretty sure many of them are glad for release. You forgot their line of “At last…” which is not ambiguous but quite definite on their view on their own undeath in the last moment of reclaimed clarity – when Zhaitan’s remote control curse lifts from their mind.

In light of this, I’m inclined to believe that “Rest…” is also an exclamation of joyous freedom from torment. The risen were snidely denied of their rest (the souls of some were snatched from the Mists even) after all. They can finally depart and be at peace.

See bolded.

Risen while alive don’t want to die. At all. But if Zhaitan’s influence is removed, then that desire of death may come. Though I doubt that anyone would be wanting death unless undead was very painful for them.

And the “Rest…” line doesn’t sound joyous at all. It just sounds… tiresome. Honestly, as if the risen aren’t dying but being tired out (which would probably fit with the books’ description of risen who’d keep going even if chopped to bits).

Goatjugsoup.8637:

I think of the elder dragons as forces of nature like a tornado or a tsunami. For the most part nothing good will come of them and if there is anything we can do to minimize or prevent their effects of course we would do it but from a rational standpoint they are not evil or good, they just are.

Anet uses that comparison a lot.

But the Elder Dragons are sapient. They are intelligent. They are still greatly different than forces of nature.

Clearly you didnt pay attention to the teacher in the Zephyr Sanctum. Theyre not evil; they just know its time to rise and so they rise, like the tides. They don’t notice or care about those that will be trapped when they rise.
Plus, the dragons were here first.

The Zephyrites aren’t all knowing. They’re as fallable as everyone else is about second-hand information.

Also, its a stupid comparison on the teacher’s part considering the dragon the Zephyrites so admire, Glint, was purposefully hunted down and killed by an ED for betrayal and ruining their plans to kill off all the races back in the day. That’s not rising mindlessly like the tides and just leaving destruction wherever it happens to occur. That’s sapience and free will.

Also, I think the killing of Glint is proof Kralkattorik’s evil. And its not just the action, but the reasoning that makes him so. She betrayed him to protect people and that’s what he kills her over. B/c his plans were to hurt and/or use those people. If Glint can know the difference btwn right and wrong there, so can he. And if he can, so can the rest of the EDs. That they choose not to care doesn’t somehow absolve them of culpability.

Everybody says “they do things I think are evil” or “they don’t think about the things they do.” I think about them like animals. They sleep. They wake up. They hunger, so they eat. Unfortunately for us, they’re higher on the food chain and no matter how much they eat, they can never sate their hunger. For the elder dragons it’s as simple as eat or starve. Self preservation instinct says eat and so they do.

We’ve already been told this is not the first time the elder dragons have risen. What if the first time they rose they were content to just eat and go back to sleep? The eradication of all life would just be a side effect. However, we started fighting back trying to protect the magic we needed to sustain life. So they defended themselves. Every time they rose, they would be fought by beings seeking to protect magic; to prevent the elder dragons from eating. To kill the elder dragons. The dragons (as sentient beings) began learning how best to deal with that. How to evolve to be better predators. This involves things like genocide, corruption, preemptive strikes against perceived threats, and psychological warfare through symbolic victories like at the Honor of the Waves.

This isn’t their first time being awake. They’ve done this before. They know what they’re doing, but it’s a case of kill or be killed. As a rational being, they choose kill.

EDIT: Also wanted to mention this:
“You can’t compare this with humans versus insects, because insects live short lives to begin with.”
It’s a perfectly acceptable comparison. Compared to the elder dragons, humans live short lives. Elder dragons could have lived for millions of years and we know they’ve at least lived for 10,000 years. In the scale of that, how is 70 years not comparable to the life of an insect?

Simplicity.7208:

EDIT: Also wanted to mention this:
“You can’t compare this with humans versus insects, because insects live short lives to begin with.”
It’s a perfectly acceptable comparison. Compared to the elder dragons, humans live short lives. Elder dragons could have lived for millions of years and we know they’ve at least lived for 10,000 years. In the scale of that, how is 70 years not comparable to the life of an insect?

If you conveniently leave out the other reasons that humans are not comparable to insects, like the fact that they are sentient, yes. But I brought up far more reasons than just that one quote you cherry-picked.

Simplicity.7208:

Everybody says “they do things I think are evil” or “they don’t think about the things they do.” I think about them like animals. They sleep. They wake up. They hunger, so they eat. Unfortunately for us, they’re higher on the food chain and no matter how much they eat, they can never sate their hunger. For the elder dragons it’s as simple as eat or starve. Self preservation instinct says eat and so they do.

Only they are quite clearly not as animals. These Elder Dragons plan, they form armies, they have very clear emotions. They try to manipulate other species, and bend them to their will. They don’t just eat and sleep, they also conquer.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Simplicity.7208:

EDIT: Also wanted to mention this:
“You can’t compare this with humans versus insects, because insects live short lives to begin with.”
It’s a perfectly acceptable comparison. Compared to the elder dragons, humans live short lives. Elder dragons could have lived for millions of years and we know they’ve at least lived for 10,000 years. In the scale of that, how is 70 years not comparable to the life of an insect?

If you conveniently leave out the other reasons that humans are not comparable to insects, like the fact that they are sentient, yes. But I brought up far more reasons than just that one quote you cherry-picked.

Simplicity.7208:

Everybody says “they do things I think are evil” or “they don’t think about the things they do.” I think about them like animals. They sleep. They wake up. They hunger, so they eat. Unfortunately for us, they’re higher on the food chain and no matter how much they eat, they can never sate their hunger. For the elder dragons it’s as simple as eat or starve. Self preservation instinct says eat and so they do.

Only they are quite clearly not as animals. These Elder Dragons plan, they form armies, they have very clear emotions. They try to manipulate other species, and bend them to their will. They don’t just eat and sleep, they also conquer.

we know that animals and insects also communicate tho we cant understand them.
animals and insects are very much compareble to humans and elder dragons,
the only diffrense is that the elder dragons can under stand us and we cant understand the insects.

i would say if anyone in this realm is evil it must be the humans(an alien spices goes in and conquers that much land and then begins to wipe out the inhabiters there have been there for longer then our knowlege goes back).

if you judge the elder dragons out from your morals or the charaters morals then ofc they are evil but you cant do that, as you would still not care about any lesser beings the same way as you care for yourself or anyone of same status as you, and yes compared to the elder dragons we are very much a lesser being.

For us, or anyone else for that matter, to know if the Elder Dragons natural, we need to know their origins and how they came to be. Until that happens, we can only speculate.

Alleluia.1320:

Also, I think the killing of Glint is proof Kralkattorik’s evil. And its not just the action, but the reasoning that makes him so. She betrayed him to protect people and that’s what he kills her over. B/c his plans were to hurt and/or use those people.

You say “she betrayed him to protect people” Kralkatorrik says “she betrayed me and tried to kill me.”

And we don’t really know what his plans are. Or his intention. We know he corrupts, and the things he doesn’t corrupt he wishes to destroy. But why? Is he just a narcesist taken to extreme levels (“I’m so great that there should be nothing but me and what looks like me!)? Is he just a huge spoiled brat (”mine mine mine!" breaks what cannot have)? Or is it something else, like trying to obtain everything out of greed (“No matter how it’s done, I will have everything”)? Or perhaps wanting to obtain a version of godhood (“everyone will bow down to me!”)?

We just don’t know. And that is what fascinates me personally about the Elder Dragons.

We know Primordus seeks to kill all life. It’s said everywhere that’s what he and his champions are after.
We know Kralkatorrik wishes to corrupt all things and destroy the rest, Snaff diving into his mind shows this.
We know that Jormag corrupts by convincing others to join, given the related skill challenges, dialogue in Edge of Destiny, and certain NPCs dialogue.
We know that Zhaitan promises power and (un)life eternal. The risen in the personal story and Sea of Sorrows show this.
Though we don’t know about the jungle dragon or deep sea dragon’s actions/goals.

But for all the dragons, we don’t know why they’re after these things. We know they don’t care about the lives that end in an effective blink of the eye (now you see them, now they’re dead-by-age!), but we don’t know why.

“Why” is the question here.

And in order to answer that question, we need one of two things: to delve into their minds (or talk to them/their minions who’ll explain such), and to know their origins.

Maybe they’ve learned to not care because they need to devour magic to survive, and it’s always viewed by the races as something harmful to them so they’re natural enemies on the food chain. Perhaps they’ve grown to hate the little insects that prevent them from getting their food, little different than a bear being annoyed by bees that stop the bear from getting at honey. Or perhaps they laugh and twirl their scaley mustache after crushing a band of heroes. We honestly don’t know much about the Elder Dragons – we only know their actions, which allows us to view them objectively, but not subjectively and that is what the question of “is it evil” requires – because evil itself is subjective.

If all we see is a man killing another man, then we would claim man A is evil. But what if man A was killing man B to save someone? Or in self-defense? Or out of revenge? Or even because man A was brought to the brink of hunger and insanity by society and he thought he must commit a crime to survive, that he must steal food and man B got in the way of man A trying to survive? Is man A still evil then?

Similar situation. We see the action, but not the reason.

You are essentially making a case that there are no evil creatures in the world since there could be an unknown reason for any evil seeming action. You are saying this is true even if there is no evidence to suggest any unknown reasons. This however this is essentially a worthless argument since we must be able to define evil to have this discussion at all. As soon as we accept that evil could be applied to Elder Dragons if they fit description, then the evidence shows that they are evil.

@ Stooperdale
thats only if the elder dragons fit the agreed difernision of evil.

evil is nothing more then how you look at it, as everything can be seen as evil but everything can also be seen as good in the right light.
example man A kills man B would that be evil(most will proberly say yes here)
man A kills man B but now you also sees a scared child behind man A up agienst the wall is man A still evil for killing man B?(many will proberly begin to ask for more information about it before judging now)

any action can be evil and any action can be good its all a mathere of the eyes that looks at it, is any religion evil example we ask true beliver in the kristan belifes and then ask if muslimes, budist and the rest of the religions are evil, then try ask the same question for each of the other religions and there is the point ill make(i think buhdismen is most likely the only one to answer none of them are evil or bad)

Exactly. Evil is always defined by our own morals as a society. Now a Charr society may have slightly different morals than a human society. But there are some things we can objectively agree on. A giant monster exterminating all life on the planet is wrong, regardless of what his motivation is. It’s an evil act, by our own definition of what is right and wrong.

Stooperdale.3560:

You are essentially making a case that there are no evil creatures in the world since there could be an unknown reason for any evil seeming action. You are saying this is true even if there is no evidence to suggest any unknown reasons. This however this is essentially a worthless argument since we must be able to define evil to have this discussion at all. As soon as we accept that evil could be applied to Elder Dragons if they fit description, then the evidence shows that they are evil.

No, I’m saying that you cannot discern if something is evil or not based on action alone. The motive is also important in determining whether someone is evil or not.

And I disagree with there being no motive to their actions. If the belief that the Elder Dragons are natural forces, then their actions would be the same and their minions would hold no shared concepts between them if any form of personality at all. Instead all minions are fanatical and each set of minions (differentiated by dragon) hold different core value alongside their fanaticism to their dragon – be that core value be upholding of strength, a twisted view on immortality, killing all things, etc.

The difference in core beliefs and actions around the Elder Dragons show that they hold different methodologies which imply a different motivation – granted, they could be each aiming for the same thing with the same motivation but with different methods of obtaining that shared objective, but given how Primordus seems intent to kill all life utterly, while the other dragons are more intent on corrupting life (with the possible exceptions of the DSD and JD), I find this unlikely.

But you are correct in saying we must first define evil to label the Elder Dragons as such – however, we each have our own definition of evil and our own boundaries of what equates evil, so some folks will inevitably say the Elder Dragons are not evil. When it gets to that, unless they fall into a universal view of what can be considered evil, this argument becomes purely semantics and utterly pointless as there’ll be no agreement upon whether or not the Elder Dragons are “evil.”

All we can truly do is decide for ourselves whether or not the Elder Dragons are evil. And to do that properly, one must look at all aspects of the Elder Dragons, not just the surface level of their actions (that they kill, corrupt, and destroy all life around them).

For example, what if the world of Tyria’s original shape is the form of the Elder Dragons’ corruption, and after they first fell asleep other races came in and altered the world, killing off hundreds of the Elder Dragons’ own race in an attempt to make their own world. The Elder Dragons would become the victims, their own natural habitat destroyed and their race mostly killed off. What if their actions is just them trying to remake that natural habitat simply because they need that kind of habitat to survive, and view the other races as invaders who are trying to kill them by destroying their home? The other races would be viewed as the evil ones, wouldn’t they? And maybe them making dragon champions is their attempt to recreate their own fallen and near-extinct race out of those who wish them dead? Would they still be evil if all they’re trying to do is protect themselves from what they view to be a threat to their very existence?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Exactly. Evil is always defined by our own morals as a society. Now a Charr society may have slightly different morals than a human society. But there are some things we can objectively agree on. A giant monster exterminating all life on the planet is wrong, regardless of what his motivation is. It’s an evil act, by our own definition of what is right and wrong.

you are looking at it trough very narrow glasses and only seeing one side of it(the one thats hurt by the dragon)
looking at the dragons side we are the evil once for trying to kill it when all its doing is trying to survive.

and your even more evil for trying to forcer your moral at something that dont live by them and most likely dont care about your morals.

and if you want to know im agienst most of the western worlds way of forcing its morals at others, when the wester world have a history 100 times blooder then the rest of the world combined(that history is amoung the reasons they got to dominat and are dominating so much today).

Korsbaek.9803:

you are looking at it trough very narrow glasses and only seeing one side of it(the one thats hurt by the dragon)
looking at the dragons side we are the evil once for trying to kill it when all its doing is trying to survive.

Now you are making excuses for a monster whose motivations you don’t even know.

Let me simplify this for you. Do you believe that exterminating a whole race/society of beings is wrong?

Korsbaek.9803:

and if you want to know im agienst most of the western worlds way of forcing its morals at others, when the wester world have a history 100 times blooder then the rest of the world combined(that history is amoung the reasons they got to dominat and are dominating so much today).

Not all morals are subjective. Morals are formed based on logical conclusions about what’s best for our society. For example, being alive, is better than being dead. No one is going to disagree on that, unless they have some sort of mental disorder. Fortunately we don’t define morals based on the ideas of people who are insane.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For example, what if the world of Tyria’s original shape is the form of the Elder Dragons’ corruption, and after they first fell asleep other races came in and altered the world, killing off hundreds of the Elder Dragons’ own race in an attempt to make their own world. The Elder Dragons would become the victims, their own natural habitat destroyed and their race mostly killed off. What if their actions is just them trying to remake that natural habitat simply because they need that kind of habitat to survive, and view the other races as invaders who are trying to kill them by destroying their home? The other races would be viewed as the evil ones, wouldn’t they? And maybe them making dragon champions is their attempt to recreate their own fallen and near-extinct race out of those who wish them dead? Would they still be evil if all they’re trying to do is protect themselves from what they view to be a threat to their very existence?

You are falling into the same trap of making excuses for a murderous monster. We’re talking creatures here that eradicate all life. Not just life that is a threat to them, but also harmless children.

It’s the equivalent of pointing at a murderous psychopath and saying, he’s not evil, he may have had a difficult childhood. Or maybe he felt threatened by those children, so he had good reasons for his murderous acts.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

you are looking at it trough very narrow glasses and only seeing one side of it(the one thats hurt by the dragon)
looking at the dragons side we are the evil once for trying to kill it when all its doing is trying to survive.

Now you are making excuses for a monster whose motivations you don’t even know.

Let me simplify this for you. Do you believe that exterminating a whole race/society of beings is wrong?

Korsbaek.9803:

and if you want to know im agienst most of the western worlds way of forcing its morals at others, when the wester world have a history 100 times blooder then the rest of the world combined(that history is amoung the reasons they got to dominat and are dominating so much today).

Not all morals are subjective. Morals are formed based on logical conclusions about what’s best for our society. For example, being alive, is better than being dead. No one is going to disagree on that, unless they have some sort of mental disorder. Fortunately we don’t define morals based on the ideas of people who are insane.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For example, what if the world of Tyria’s original shape is the form of the Elder Dragons’ corruption, and after they first fell asleep other races came in and altered the world, killing off hundreds of the Elder Dragons’ own race in an attempt to make their own world. The Elder Dragons would become the victims, their own natural habitat destroyed and their race mostly killed off. What if their actions is just them trying to remake that natural habitat simply because they need that kind of habitat to survive, and view the other races as invaders who are trying to kill them by destroying their home? The other races would be viewed as the evil ones, wouldn’t they? And maybe them making dragon champions is their attempt to recreate their own fallen and near-extinct race out of those who wish them dead? Would they still be evil if all they’re trying to do is protect themselves from what they view to be a threat to their very existence?

You are falling into the same trap of making excuses for a murderous monster. We’re talking creatures here that eradicate all life. Not just life that is a threat to them, but also harmless children.

It’s the equivalent of pointing at a murderous psychopath and saying, he’s not evil, he may have had a difficult childhood. Or maybe he felt threatened by those children, so he had good reasons for his murderous acts.

anything seen from only one side can be seen as evil or good based how it reflects to the side you see, seeing it from all side is something else tho,

sorry to say but if anyone is evil then its all the current races of tyria based on the fact that none(not even the elder races) know where the elder dragons originates from but that they where there when the got a kitteniness in some kind meaning that the elder dragons are the origian habitators of the world or atleast the first owners of it, how can we get something from the elder dragons without there consent of them iveing it to us in the first place? yep thats called stealing it so we stole a world and are now calling the race we stole it from evil? ok so i go steal all your stuff when you sleep and when you try take it back your evil ok? and to further prove that we are the invaders look at how the humans got to the world(they got here with the help of the gods meaning that humans dont even belong in the world if we are talking place of origance)

and now to show you how wrong you are about all of your statments so far, i dare you define evil so all agrees on that definition, if you can do that i will say that your right.
and to be fair i dont belive complet destruction of a society is evil in any way or form.
and i also belive that forceing your morals onto others are evil.

evil is all a mather of how you see it.
is death evil? hell no its part of life and a naturel thing and because of that cant be evil unless you will call all of nature evil and then all things will be evil but ofc that will also make the elder dragons evil tho.

a psychopath is not evil hes ill per defernition of it so yep i will call him none evil.
trust me when i say that hes world is so many times worse then yours no mather what you have gone trough i can say that without hessitation. and i wont call a ill man evil if hes act that condem him evil is because of his illness and not him

So I have a question: To those who want to argue the elder dragons aren’t evil, do you at least agree that the act of corrupting people/nature, bringing death and undeath where there was once life, and enslaving people is evil? Just trying to get some common ground here.

Korsbaek.9803:

sorry to say but if anyone is evil then its all the current races of tyria based on the fact that none(not even the elder races) know where the elder dragons originates from but that they where there when the got a kitteniness in some kind meaning that the elder dragons are the origian habitators of the world or atleast the first owners of it, how can we get something from the elder dragons without there consent of them iveing it to us in the first place? yep thats called stealing it so we stole a world and are now calling the race we stole it from evil? ok so i go steal all your stuff when you sleep and when you try take it back your evil ok? and to further prove that we are the invaders look at how the humans got to the world(they got here with the help of the gods meaning that humans dont even belong in the world if we are talking place of origance)

Just because the Elder Dragons are older than us, does not mean they own the world they live on. They still have to share it with all other creatures, and they don’t particularly seem to want to share it with anyone at all.

Korsbaek.9803:

and now to show you how wrong you are about all of your statments so far, i dare you define evil so all agrees on that definition, if you can do that i will say that your right.
and to be fair i dont belive complet destruction of a society is evil in any way or form.
and i also belive that forceing your morals onto others are evil.

How can I explain evil to you, when you don’t think the complete destruction of a society (including killing innocent children) is wrong?

Korsbaek.9803:

a psychopath is not evil hes ill per defernition of it so yep i will call him none evil.
trust me when i say that hes world is so many times worse then yours no mather what you have gone trough i can say that without hessitation. and i wont call a ill man evil if hes act that condem him evil is because of his illness and not him

I think you may have poor knowledge of the type of people we’re talking about here. Psychopath isn’t just a simple word you just casually throw around. We’re not just talking about someone who is a bit strange in the head. A psychopath is an amoral person who knows that his acts are wrong by the definition of others, yet commits his acts anyway, and possibly even delights in the suffering of others.

And the Elder Dragons are not much different. They are intelligent, but as Konig already stated, they are amoral; they do not share our morals, and may not even have morals at all. But they know that they are causing death and suffering. They just don’t care what we think.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

sorry to say but if anyone is evil then its all the current races of tyria based on the fact that none(not even the elder races) know where the elder dragons originates from but that they where there when the got a kitteniness in some kind meaning that the elder dragons are the origian habitators of the world or atleast the first owners of it, how can we get something from the elder dragons without there consent of them iveing it to us in the first place? yep thats called stealing it so we stole a world and are now calling the race we stole it from evil? ok so i go steal all your stuff when you sleep and when you try take it back your evil ok? and to further prove that we are the invaders look at how the humans got to the world(they got here with the help of the gods meaning that humans dont even belong in the world if we are talking place of origance)

Just because the Elder Dragons are older than us, does not mean they own the world they live on. They still have to share it with all other creatures, and they don’t particularly seem to want to share it with anyone at all.

Korsbaek.9803:

and now to show you how wrong you are about all of your statments so far, i dare you define evil so all agrees on that definition, if you can do that i will say that your right.
and to be fair i dont belive complet destruction of a society is evil in any way or form.
and i also belive that forceing your morals onto others are evil.

How can I explain evil to you, when you don’t think the complete destruction of a society (including killing innocent children) is wrong?

Korsbaek.9803:

a psychopath is not evil hes ill per defernition of it so yep i will call him none evil.
trust me when i say that hes world is so many times worse then yours no mather what you have gone trough i can say that without hessitation. and i wont call a ill man evil if hes act that condem him evil is because of his illness and not him

I think you may have poor knowledge of the type of people we’re talking about here. Psychopath isn’t just a simple word you just casually throw around. We’re not just talking about someone who is a bit strange in the head. A psychopath is an amoral person who knows that his acts are wrong by the definition of others, yet commits his acts anyway, and possibly even delights in the suffering of others.

And the Elder Dragons are not much different. They are intelligent, but as Konig already stated, they are amoral; they do not share our morals, and may not even have morals at all. But they know that they are causing death and suffering. They just don’t care what we think.

first off the fall of sociatys is very commen and happens many times trough history and as i dont see death as evil there is no way that i can see destrouction of a sociaty as evil.
just because they are intelligent dont mean they have to share the same moral as us in any way,
would you care about your enemy if its a mather of life and death.
and you have no right to talk about shareing given your a human being like me and we are the only race on earth that dont share it but forces any change to the area we habitat for our comfort.

i know what a phycopath is and can still say what i said.

the fact that the elder dragons dont see us a equals to them and defnedly not as supirior to them we are lesser being to them in any way shape or form.
then let me ask do you fell remores for the sloughter of cows, pigs or any otherlesser being for that mather?
by calling the elder dragon amoral they dont have moral but how do we know that? have you talked to them or anyone else and lived to tell the tale that shows they have no moral as a race what so ever?
given they see us a lesser beings they also see the right to slay us a cattle as they see fit(or corrupt us) without being evil unless you call any human that kills a living being for evil and if you do that then its you that are not following the moral of the sociaty not the other way around.

are the dragons killing us for fun? if so yes they are evil but there is no where they say that the dragons kill us for fun or corrupt us for fun,

the only time i will say someone is evil is the secoend he is hurting something for his amusmend with no other reason.

killing of a sociaty is not evil as this world is based on surviavl of the fittest so if that groupe is not strong enough to hold its land or what ever it is its killed for then its a natural thing in this world as something stronger needs that to survive and grow

tecniacly a Psychopath is someone that has no felling remorse and emphaty and no moral consicvenses for hes actions. there is no rull that a Psychopath needs to be criminal in any way or form tho they have a tendensy to be it

Korsbaek.9803:

looking at the dragons side we are the evil once for trying to kill it when all its doing is trying to survive.

Unproven but possible.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You are falling into the same trap of making excuses for a murderous monster. We’re talking creatures here that eradicate all life. Not just life that is a threat to them, but also harmless children.

It’s the equivalent of pointing at a murderous psychopath and saying, he’s not evil, he may have had a difficult childhood. Or maybe he felt threatened by those children, so he had good reasons for his murderous acts.

Actually, I’m not falling into that trap at all.

I’m explaining that we don’t know their motives, and if their motives – which wouldn’t be an excuse – were not what you expect, would they still be deemed evil?

You’re falling into the trap of looking at them in a one-sided manner.

In your example of the murderous psychopath with a difficult childhood, I would not say he’s not evil. I would say that he’s evil because of that difficult childhood. About the “felt threatened by” – it depends on the circumstance, but most of the time I would say that’s a very poor excuse.

Feeling threatened by is not the same as actually being threatened by. Which in my example scenario, the situation’s the later.

Alleluia.1320:

So I have a question: To those who want to argue the elder dragons aren’t evil, do you at least agree that the act of corrupting people/nature, bringing death and undeath where there was once life, and enslaving people is evil? Just trying to get some common ground here.

I wouldn’t say that bringing undeath to the dead is evil, but I would say that the act of killing in of itself and slavery in of itself are evil acts – but again, that’s arguing without context.

Prisoners are effectively slaves, enslaved by the judicial system as they are without the freedom to leave or do what they wish. Is that slavery evil? No.

Is a man who kills in self-defense evil? No.

It’s all about the context, not the action. An action without context is not something to judge, because even something that would otherwise be viewed as noble and good will be seen as evil and inexcusable.

Tell me if this is evil:

A man lives in a specific location, owning it by right of his peers. On his land he takes in lesser beings, raising them and taking care of them from birth. When they come to a certain age, he butchers them and ships their corpses out to his peers. Others he’ll sell off for a certain price.

Is this man evil? Looking at only what he does, many may very well say yes. Looking at it like that, without knowing what I’m referring to, I’d say that Malafide would say yes. But this is a farmer,. and what farmers everywhere do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

How can I explain evil to you, when you don’t think the complete destruction of a society (including killing innocent children) is wrong?

So in that regard, the races bringing the Elder Dragons’ race into extinction is also evil, correct? If you say no, you’re choosing sides and being biased. In the scenario that you claimed I was “falling in a trap” – who’s the evil ones? The race that nearly got extinct, or the race that came in and did the extinction? The former would be the Elder Dragons and by your very statement, the other races are evil.

Evil is too subjective.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But they know that they are causing death and suffering. They just don’t care what we think.

There is nothing to claim or support this. In fact, if we were to use the risen’s and icebrood’s own words for this, then it is WE who are causing death and suffering, while they are fixing it.

In a war between two nations, who’s the evil one? Both sides are causing death and suffering, even to civilians in cases. Is America evil for the war in Iraq? Is America evil for dropping the nukes on Japan? Is Julius Ceasar evil for his actions in life? Alexander the Great? They all caused death and suffering. Yet society does not deem them as evil.

Labels such as “good” and “evil” are biased, subjective, and outright lies. They are terms used to glorify oneself and demonize their opponent. And that’s what you’re doing – calling the Elder Dragons evil without even looking at their side of the argument. To them, we could be the evil ones. Saying such doesn’t say that I’m falling into a trap. Because I never claim that they’re good either.

The opponent is always “evil” and yourself always “good” – there’s no one who will openly admit “I am evil.” No one outside of archtypal fantasy villains at least. Which the Elder Dragons are not.

To elaborate on this, I present to you the definition of evil from The Book of Vile Darkness. A book that of course the Mad Queen has casually lying around on her bookshelf. It is quite clear on what evil is, and while this work of fiction is of course not a work of fact. It’s hard to deny that the definition is crystal clear, and also applies to the Elder Dragons.

Defining Evil

“Of course, even if you take an objective approach (snip), evil people might not always call themselves evil. They would be wrong or simply lying to do so, but they might still deny their evil nature. Even the most deranged mass murderer might be able to justify his actions to himself in the name of his beliefs, his deity, or some skewed vision of what is best for the world.
A killer might slay any children he deems weak or unfit to reach adulthood. Another might kill children he believes will grow up and become evil themselves. Perhaps such a killer once had a prophetic dream telling him that evil was growing among the children of the town.
On a larger scale, an evil priest might believe that to better serve his dark god, he needs to destroy an entire village and sacrifice all the residents. Is that evil? Yes. Does the priest see it as evil? No, he sees it as a demonstration of his unending devotion and an aspect of his faith. Or perhaps he does see it as evil and doesn’t care.
A dictator might order the elimination of an entire race of good creatures because she believes them to be evil. She might seek to dominate the world and bring its people under her unyielding fist. But such a despot could also believe that she is a good person and that the world will be better off with her guidance. This attitude makes her no less a villain.

So, does the objective definition of evil imply that intent plays no part in determining what is good and what isn’t? Only to a degree."

It then also lists various evil acts: “Lying, cheating, theft, betrayal, murder, vengeance, worshiping evil gods and demons, animating the dead or creating undead, casting evil spells, cursing (the other word is censored) or harming souls, consorting with fiends, creating evil creatures, using others for personal gain, greed, bullying and cowing innocents, bringing despair, tempting others.”

You may notice that the Elder Dragons are not only guilty of one of these evil acts, but several at once. Is there still ANY doubt that the Elder Dragons are by every definition evil?

(By the way, no one should actually be having the Book of Vile Darkness on his or her bookshelf casually.)

The definition of murder is also interesting. As some people brought up this argument that humans/asura/charr/sylvari/norn fighting the Elder Dragons are committing an evil act themselves. And this is not true for this reason:

Murder

“Killing is one of the most horrible acts that a creature can commit. Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like. The heroes who go into the green dragon’s woodland lair to slay it are not murderers. In a fantasy world based on an objective definition of evil, killing an evil creature to stop it from doing further harm is not an evil act. Even killing an evil creature for personal gain is not exactly evil (although it’s not a good act), because it still stops the creature’s predations on the innocent. Such a justification, however, works only for the slaying of creatures of consummate, irredeemable evil, (snip). Evil beings delight in murder. It is the ultimate expression of their power and their willingness to commit any sort of heinous act. It shows that they are either powerful enough or detached enough to do anything they wish. To particularly evil creatures, especially those with very alien outlooks, murder is itself a desirable goal. Some such creatures hate life and despise all that lives. They relish either death or undeath and thus seek to quench life wherever possible. Such creatures are usually (but not always) undead themselves.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

To elaborate on this, I present to you the definition of evil from The Book of Vile Darkness. A book that of course the Mad Queen has casually lying around on her bookshelf. It is quite clear on what evil is, and while this work of fiction is of course not a work of fact. It’s hard to deny that the definition is crystal clear, and also applies to the Elder Dragons.

Defining Evil

“Of course, even if you take an objective approach (in your game), evil people might not always call themselves evil. They would be wrong or simply lying to do so, but they might still deny their evil nature. Even the most deranged mass murderer might be able to justify his actions to himself in the name of his beliefs, his deity, or some skewed vision of what is best for the world.
A killer might slay any children he deems weak or unfit to reach adulthood. Another might kill children he believes will grow up and become evil themselves. Perhaps such a killer once had a prophetic dream telling him that evil was growing among the children of the town.
On a larger scale, an evil priest might believe that to better serve his dark god, he needs to destroy an entire village and sacrifice all the residents. Is that evil? Yes. Does the priest see it as evil? No, he sees it as a demonstration of his unending devotion and an aspect of his faith. Or perhaps he does see it as evil and doesn’t care.
A dictator might order the elimination of an entire race of good creatures because she believes them to be evil. She might seek to dominate the world and bring its people under her unyielding fist. But such a despot could also believe that she is a good person and that the world will be better off with her guidance. This attitude makes her no less a villain.

So, does the objective definition of evil imply that intent plays no part in determining what is good and what isn’t? Only to a degree."

It then also lists various evil acts: “Lying, cheating, theft, betrayal, murder, vengeance, worshiping evil gods and demons, animating the dead or creating undead, casting evil spells, cursing (the other word is censored) or harming souls, consorting with fiends, creating evil creatures, using others for personal gain, greed, bullying and cowing innocents, bringing despair, tempting others.”

You may notice that the Elder Dragons are not only guilty of one of these evil acts, but several at once. Is there still ANY doubt that the Elder Dragons are by every definition evil?

(By the way, no one should actually be having the Book of Vile Darkness on his or her bookshelf casually.)

first point you make:
that is all a mather of the sociaty you live in that thetermans if thoes acts are evil.

all your evil acts your claiming(looks very bible like to me): first off define evil gods and good gods, then demons, in the game world animateing the dead is not a evil act in any way(look at the necromancer) define evil spells, then curseing(im gessing the curse you place on people and not something you call people) given that any spell can be seen as curseing(for fun lets take healing as an example of a curse, my curse is for your body to regenrate very fast for the next x amount of time thats the ide behind healing(getting the body to regnerat very fast)) now i dont want to go into each creatur you meantion so lets start with defin evil creaturs as your evil for comunicating with them but your a saint if not divine for communicating with god creaturs, and the last 4 out of 5 is something any race does as part of there nature and given that nature is nighter evil nor good then thoes acts are nighter evil nor good.

in a sociaty where its needed to kill the weak for the survival of the race then going to kill of the weak children is not evil in any way,
a priest sacrifiesing a village is not evil in any way given the villiage knows of it, heck in some sociatys it where seen as the greatest honor to be sacrificed to a god.

all your doing is looking at it with todays western moral code nothing else you are not going above it and looking with the eyes of other moral codes where your evil acts are good acts and even seen as the highest honor for them.

murder is not evil in any way its a mean to surviving.
lying can be a evil act but it can also be a good act to do, illustated with this, is it evil to be lying about your famielys location to the enemy?
cheating is also a mather of the situation, is it evil to cheat/scam a person that misstreats hes people off hes power?
is it evil to steal a weapon from someone that you know will use it to hurt others before anyone else can do something about it?
is it evil to betray someone thats about to hurt or kill someone?
is vengeance evil if you take vengeance without hurting anyone?.

to me your are fallen in a trap or about to fall in a trap, that only lets you see it from one point of view.

Korsbaek.9803:

first point you make:
that is all a mather of the sociaty you live in that thetermans if thoes acts are evil.

No, some acts are objectively wrong. Like killing innocent children, or killing innocents for personal gain.

Korsbaek.9803:

all your evil acts your claiming(looks very bible like to me): first off define evil gods and good gods, then demons, in the game world animateing the dead is not a evil act in any way(look at the necromancer) define evil spells,

The book defines evil in general for fantasy worlds. If you could animate the dead in real life, it would definitely be an evil act without a doubt. But the writers of Guild Wars have decided in their universe that necromancy in itself is not evil. Although some people in Tyria disagree. However, if there are gods and demons of which we know that they are evil, and you know they are evil, then worshiping them makes you evil as well. The book is a general reference to what evil is all about.

Korsbaek.9803:

then curseing(im gessing the curse you place on people and not something you call people) given that any spell can be seen as curseing

No, no, no. Cursing someone’s soul. It’s quite specific.

Korsbaek.9803:

in a sociaty where its needed to kill the weak for the survival of the race then going to kill of the weak children is not evil in any way,

Yes it is. Not for them. But the act is still evil.

Korsbaek.9803:

a priest sacrifiesing a village is not evil in any way given the villiage knows of it, heck in some sociatys it where seen as the greatest honor to be sacrificed to a god.

Yes it is! Even if everyone agrees that the act is perfectly fine, it is still an evil act. See the first example that the book gives in the definition of evil. Evil is evil, regardless if a whole crowd of people think they are doing good. Approval does not make it right.

Korsbaek.9803:

all your doing is looking at it with todays western moral code nothing else you are not going above it and looking with the eyes of other moral codes where your evil acts are good acts and even seen as the highest honor for them.

No. Some acts are by definition wrong. And if you disagree, then your own moral compass may be skewed for what ever reason.

Korsbaek.9803:

murder is not evil in any way its a mean to surviving.

Murder in the definition given by the book is most definitely always a wrong act.

Korsbaek.9803:

lying can be a evil act but it can also be a good act to do, illustated with this, is it evil to be lying about your famielys location to the enemy?
cheating is also a mather of the situation, is it evil to cheat/scam a person that misstreats hes people off hes power?
is it evil to steal a weapon from someone that you know will use it to hurt others before anyone else can do something about it?
is it evil to betray someone thats about to hurt or kill someone?
is vengeance evil if you take vengeance without hurting anyone?.

The book gives many degrees for all these examples, which I did not quote. For the record, they are still wrong acts, but this is where context matters. Glint betraying Kralkatorrik is a wrong act, but her reason is not. Thus it is not an entirely evil act. However, betraying a friend so you can steal his money, that IS a very evil act.

I would be glad to give you the definitions of the other evil acts.

More on the other evil acts:

Lying

“Misdirection, tricks and manipulation are tools of the trade for most villains. With such tools, they can lead enemies into traps, both physical and otherwise. A well-told, well-placed lie can redirect a whole army, change the opinion of an entire city’s populace, or simply make an adventurer open the wrong door in a dungeon. Some liars are compulsive, that is, they have a psychological need to lie. Others delight in fooling people. If a villain can get a foe to believe a lie, he has shown himself (at least in his own mind) to be superior to that foe. (snip) Lying is not necessarily an evil act, though it is a tool that easily be used for evil ends. Lying is so easy to use for evil purposes that most knightly codes and the creeds of many good religions forbid it altogether.”

Theft

“Any child can tell you that stealing is wrong. Villains, however, often see theft as the best way to acquire what they want. Evil people pay only for things they cannot take. An evil character needs a reason not to steal. Fear of being caught is the most common deterrent, but sometimes a villain elects not to steal an item because he or she doesn’t want to incur the wrath of its owner.”

Cheating

“Cheating is breaking the rules for personal gain. When evil villains cheat, it’s not just at games. They create contracts with clauses that they can manipulate to trick others. Villains manipulate officials so that evildoers are set free instead of going to prison. They rig their enemies’ equipment so that it breaks or does not function properly. Cheaters may threaten the lives of a councilman’s family to make him vote for their plan. They may use spells and poison to ensure that a particular gladiator dies in the arena so they they can earn a profit by wagering on the survivor. Cheating can take many forms. For example, a cheater might trick two enemies into fighting each other, or fool an enemy’s lover into betraying his or her loved one. A cheater might challenge an opponent to a rigged contest or a fight that is rigged, or simply make an agreement that he or she has no intention of upholding.”

Betrayal

“A betrayal is often nothing more than an elaborate lie, but its implications are greater. Such an act involves earning someone’s trust and then using that trust against him or her. Common acts of betrayal include learning and then revealing secrets, or using trust to get close to one’s enemies for an attack or theft. Betrayal does not have to be intentional. — or at least it does not have to start intentionally. Sometimes a character can be tempted into betraying someone whose trust he or she earned legitimately. Children can betray their parents, a lover can betray a lover, and a friend can betray a friend. However, it can also be more complex that that: A king can betray his people, a husband can betray is wife’s family, and a human can betray his entire race. Virtually any sort of link between two creatures can eventually become the foundation of betrayal.”

Keep in mind that almost all of these “evil acts” can be committed for good reasons. A beggar may steal a loaf of bread because he’s hungry. Or he might even steal it for someone else who needs it more than he does. It is still wrong to steal, but the beggar would not be entirely evil for doing so. Glint’s betrayal was wrong against Kralkatorrik, but she did it for good reasons. Switching from the side of evil, to the side of good, is a form of betrayal that can be seen as a good act. But this is where intent becomes important.

first off evil is defined with the eyes looking at it nothing else.
killing is not evil as that will make killing a cow or any other living being evil making the deffiernition wrong as nothing done for survival can be evil.
animateing the dead is not evil and would not be in the real world nighter.

and as evil is decided by the sociaty its working in that will make a village sacrifec good if that sociuaty say its good, tho it will still be evil from another sociaty that sees sacriface as evil but that does not make the act they are doing evil in that sociaty.

curseing the soul would nighter be evil or good(as cursing can be used for harm or good that makes curesing neutral)

anything can be seen as evil looking trough the right perspectiv and thats the reason i can call the elder dragon evil for there acts as i dont know the reason for there acts nor do i know there moral code.

my moral compase is not wrong in any way i just have the abilety to see it from more then one perspectiv.
gods and demons cant be proven to be god or evil. here is a question is lusifer(in the bible hes the master of hell) evil in any way or for?(remember hes also the archangle of light and god right hand into hes trown out of heaven for helping humans)

an evil act for our sociaty might not be evil for another sociaty with anothe set of rules/code and biological featers to take into account

and what says that glints is going from the side of evil to the side of good and not the other way around i what hard prof that is true for any set of eyes looking at it

what im saying the therm evil is nothing more then a code set by the groupe your in nothing else and a diffrent groupe sets a diffrent set of rules(our races and elder dragons is 2 diffrent groupes) seen from one group the action of the other is evil but good from the other, its nothing more then that, makeing evil and good nothing more then a term used to control the masses and subjet to change depending on where you are.

theft cant be evil given that none owns anything there for you cant take anything that belongs to another person, and who gives you the right to say its your things have you made it(base component witch is pure energy if trased all the way back)?

Korsbaek.9803:

first off evil is defined with the eyes looking at it nothing else.
killing is not evil as that will make killing a cow or any other living being evil making the deffiernition wrong as nothing done for survival can be evil.

We aren’t discussing killing. We’re discussing murder. And I gave you a very detailed description of what we mean by that.

“Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like.”

Korsbaek.9803:

animateing the dead is not evil and would not be in the real world nighter.

Are you telling me that if I could summon zombies for real, that that wouldn’t be an evil act? (laughs) Well okay then. If you say it’s perfectly fine.

Korsbaek.9803:

and as evil is decided by the sociaty its working in that will make a village sacrifec good if that sociuaty say its good, tho it will still be evil from another sociaty that sees sacriface as evil but that does not make the act they are doing evil in that sociaty.

That doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if they think it’s right or wrong. Some acts ARE wrong by definition. Killing innocent people is such a wrong act. Otherwise you could always find enough loonies to agree with your own particular murderous tendencies. That does not make it right.

Korsbaek.9803:

curseing the soul would nighter be evil or good(as cursing can be used for harm or good that makes curesing neutral)

Cursing the soul, implies that you do not think someone has suffered enough in life, and that you deny him eternal rest. Yes, that is an evil act. It is a form of torture, and torture is wrong.
I think we currently do not know if the corruption caused by the dragons on their minions is a corruption of the soul as well.

Korsbaek.9803:

anything can be seen as evil looking trough the right perspectiv and thats the reason i can call the elder dragon evil for there acts as i dont know the reason for there acts nor do i know there moral code.

You do not need to know their moral code to decide if they are evil. Judge the actions first. Because many actions cannot be undone by good intentions.

Korsbaek.9803:

gods and demons cant be proven to be god or evil. here is a question is lusifer(in the bible hes the master of hell) evil in any way or for?(remember hes also the archangle of light and god right hand into hes trown out of heaven for helping humans)

This is not under discussion. We’re discussing the act of worshiping someone of who YOU know he/she is an evil being. Not the ability to determine a god’s or demon’s evil nature.
For example, if the Sons of Svanir believe that Jormag is evil, and they still worship him, then that makes them evil as well.

Korsbaek.9803:

an evil act for our sociaty might not be evil for another sociaty with anothe set of rules/code and biological featers to take into account

That doesn’t change the nature of the acts. Evil is evil.