Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

first off evil is defined with the eyes looking at it nothing else.
killing is not evil as that will make killing a cow or any other living being evil making the deffiernition wrong as nothing done for survival can be evil.

We aren’t discussing killing. We’re discussing murder. And I gave you a very detailed description of what we mean by that.

“Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like.”

Korsbaek.9803:

animateing the dead is not evil and would not be in the real world nighter.

Are you telling me that if I could summon zombies for real, that that wouldn’t be an evil act? (laughs) Well okay then. If you say it’s perfectly fine.

Korsbaek.9803:

and as evil is decided by the sociaty its working in that will make a village sacrifec good if that sociuaty say its good, tho it will still be evil from another sociaty that sees sacriface as evil but that does not make the act they are doing evil in that sociaty.

That doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if they think it’s right or wrong. Some acts ARE wrong by definition. Killing innocent people is such a wrong act. Otherwise you could always find enough loonies to agree with your own particular murderous tendencies. That does not make it right.

Korsbaek.9803:

curseing the soul would nighter be evil or good(as cursing can be used for harm or good that makes curesing neutral)

Cursing the soul, implies that you do not think someone has suffered enough in life, and that you deny him eternal rest. Yes, that is an evil act. It is a form of torture, and torture is wrong.
I think we currently do not know if the corruption caused by the dragons on their minions is a corruption of the soul as well.

Korsbaek.9803:

anything can be seen as evil looking trough the right perspectiv and thats the reason i can call the elder dragon evil for there acts as i dont know the reason for there acts nor do i know there moral code.

You do not need to know their moral code to decide if they are evil. Judge the actions first. Because many actions cannot be undone by good intentions.

Korsbaek.9803:

gods and demons cant be proven to be god or evil. here is a question is lusifer(in the bible hes the master of hell) evil in any way or for?(remember hes also the archangle of light and god right hand into hes trown out of heaven for helping humans)

This is not under discussion. We’re discussing the act of worshiping someone of who YOU know he/she is an evil being. Not the ability to determine a god’s or demon’s evil nature.
For example, if the Sons of Svanir believe that Jormag is evil, and they still worship him, then that makes them evil as well.

Korsbaek.9803:

an evil act for our sociaty might not be evil for another sociaty with anothe set of rules/code and biological featers to take into account

That doesn’t change the nature of the acts. Evil is evil.

sorry i give up on you, your fallen so deep in the trap that i cant show you the way out of it in this chase, as you cant if something you worship is evil or good then you cant worship any thing evil, and none worship a god or anything else they know is evil, the sons worship jormag but prove to me that jormag is evil and we are god and not the other way around and they see it like that will that still make them evil?

and yes if you garther enough people to your sociaty and then sacrifeses people from said sociaty to a god then that is in no way a evil act

whats evil summening a dead body? without respect for the family and friends of the dead yes but evil no

i have one last question to you tho its semi off topic, is a evil action not something you need to do with your own free will before its evil?

I find it interesting how Malafide ignored my own questions and merely quoted a book that is no less subjective than any person reading this thread. Besides, why should a book from Dungeons and Dragons be used to define evil in the world of Tyria let alone for us?

Malafide, your arguments sound extremely biased to me, and you’re trying to argue that there is a set-in-stone definition for “what is evil” when there is, in fact, no such thing. Even one’s own view of what is evil or not may change over time.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I find it interesting how Malafide ignored my own questions and merely quoted a book that is no less subjective than any person reading this thread. Besides, why should a book from Dungeons and Dragons be used to define evil in the world of Tyria let alone for us?

I simply used it because it has a pretty sound definition of evil, and goes deeply into what could be considered evil acts. And I didn’t ignore your questions dear, I merely focused on some of the more outlandish remarks of others. There’s only so much I can reply to in one post. And someone claiming that raising the dead in real life is okay, was an opportunity I could not miss up, I just had to reply to that first.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Malafide, your arguments sound extremely biased to me, and you’re trying to argue that there is a set-in-stone definition for “what is evil” when there is, in fact, no such thing. Even one’s own view of what is evil or not may change over time.

That is true. However, there are acts of which we can all agree that they are wrong, regardless of culture. Murder for example, is always wrong. It is taking an innocent life for your own personal gain, or for other nefarious reasons. That’s a good definition.

Also, I think we can all agree that people are capable of both good and evil acts. I’m sure we’ve all told a lie in our lives. Telling a lie is wrong, but that does not make us evil. Our nature is determined by the balance of good and bad things that we do, and often intention is important as well. If I help an old lady cross the street, that is a good deed. However if I did nothing but wrong deeds, then there’s clearly something wrong with me. And the seriousness of these wrong deeds can be used to determine if I can be considered evil, or less so.

So, the ball is in your court now. Give me some examples of good things the Elder Dragons have done so far.

Korsbaek.9803:

sorry i give up on you, your fallen so deep in the trap that i cant show you the way out of it in this chase, as you cant if something you worship is evil or good then you cant worship any thing evil, and none worship a god or anything else they know is evil, the sons worship jormag but prove to me that jormag is evil and we are god and not the other way around and they see it like that will that still make them evil?

I can prove quite easily that Jormag is evil, by the evil acts that he’s done so far that are of a very vile nature (corrupting people, murder, driving people from their homes, spreading terror among innocents), and by the zero good acts that he’s done.

Korsbaek.9803:

and yes if you garther enough people to your sociaty and then sacrifeses people from said sociaty to a god then that is in no way a evil act

WOW! Let me say from the bottom of my heart, welcome to the club fellow villain! Read this reaction well everyone, and be amazed! Sacrificing innocent people is okay, as long as everyone tells you it’s okay. (slow clap)

Korsbaek.9803:

whats evil summening a dead body? without respect for the family and friends of the dead yes but evil no

So you’re saying that if I can animate zombies in real life, that I’m not doing an evil act? Once again, welcome to villains anonymous! You, me and the evil Queen from Snowwhite should team up. Seriously, there’s something wrong with you.

Korsbaek.9803:

i have one last question to you tho its semi off topic, is a evil action not something you need to do with your own free will before its evil?

No. But it is more serious if you do it of your own free will. For example, killing an innocent child is an evil act, even if someone else tricks you or forces you to do it. Some people are lead down shady paths whether they like it or not. A good person may be tempted into doing an evil act, or forced at sword point to do it. But the act itself is still wrong.

Now to go into some of the questions that Konig had earlier, I think it is fair to also address them.

I wouldn’t say that bringing undeath to the dead is evil, but I would say that the act of killing in of itself and slavery in of itself are evil acts – but again, that’s arguing without context.

Raising the dead would be in any real world context an evil act. But in the setting of Tyria it is a gray area. It is not explicitly okay, and this is pointed out in GW2 several times, but it is not entirely evil either.

I do not agree that killing is an evil act, but murder is. And slavery is also evil.

Prisoners are effectively slaves, enslaved by the judicial system as they are without the freedom to leave or do what they wish. Is that slavery evil? No.

I would not call that slavery. We do have rules, and prisoners have rights.

Tell me if this is evil:

A man lives in a specific location, owning it by right of his peers. On his land he takes in lesser beings, raising them and taking care of them from birth. When they come to a certain age, he butchers them and ships their corpses out to his peers. Others he’ll sell off for a certain price.

Is this man evil? Looking at only what he does, many may very well say yes. Looking at it like that, without knowing what I’m referring to, I’d say that Malafide would say yes. But this is a farmer,. and what farmers everywhere do.

No you are incorrect. You are deliberately using the vague term “lesser beings”. Killing of itself does not have to be an evil act, but murder is. And murder is the deliberate killing of innocent intelligent beings, for your own nefarious purposes. Killing cattle is not murder, because the creatures are not intelligent (not as humans at least) and the purpose is not nefarious. Killing children IS murder. Also, a slave driver might consider his slaves to be “lesser beings”. But they are none the less innocent intelligent fellow beings, and the reason for killing them would also be nefarious. So it still is an evil act.

So in that regard, the races bringing the Elder Dragons’ race into extinction is also evil, correct? If you say no, you’re choosing sides and being biased. In the scenario that you claimed I was “falling in a trap” – who’s the evil ones? The race that nearly got extinct, or the race that came in and did the extinction? The former would be the Elder Dragons and by your very statement, the other races are evil.

No, the heroes in any fantasy setting are by definition considered the good guys (usually). Heroes going off to kill an evil dragon are not evil for the act of stopping that beast from causing more misery. In this case we can clearly tell that the dragons are up to no good, and are a threat to the races around them. Killing them is there for a just cause. There is no nefarious reason why we want to kill the Elder Dragons. We fight them to stop them from killing more people. This is where the the Book of Vile Darkness is spot on with it’s definition of evil.

you are basing that murder is evil from our biological point of view nothing else,
lets take a spieces that cant die be natrue means but it wants to leav this world would murdering it still be wrong.

Jormag is evil from our point of view yes but given we dont know all there is to know about tyria then we cant say that he knows something that makes the elder dragons actions good.

a sociatys rules and normals determens whats good and evil and a sociaty is a huge groupe of people basicly.

there is nothing wrong with animeting a corpse atleast thats considered evil it is tho without respect for the people that person where in contact with.

and no im not evil in any way or form i just dont force my moral code on others and says it evil if its not like this, i try to understand why they will do something i would consider bad nothing else.

Korsbaek.9803:

you are basing that murder is evil from our biological point of view nothing else,
lets take a spieces that cant die be natrue means but it wants to leav this world would murdering it still be wrong.

If this being desires death, and asks to be killed, then the purpose is no longer nefarious is it?

Korsbaek.9803:

Jormag is evil from our point of view yes but given we dont know all there is to know about tyria then we cant say that he knows something that makes the elder dragons actions good.

No. Murder is always a wrong act. As the book states, an evil priest may have very good reasons to murder innocent people, but the act is still an evil act. Likewise, the Elder Dragons may believe that killing all other life is the only way for the world of Tyria to survive, but it would still be an evil act.

Korsbaek.9803:

a sociatys rules and normals determens whats good and evil and a sociaty is a huge groupe of people basicly.

Yes. But evil acts are still evil acts. Which is what I’m trying to explain to you. Some acts are wrong, regardless of approval ratings. A whole country may agree that torture is perfectly fine, but it is still a wrong act. A cult might believe that killing babies is the only way to stop their evil god from destroying the world, but the killing of babies is still objectively wrong.

Korsbaek.9803:

there is nothing wrong with animeting a corpse atleast thats considered evil it is tho without respect for the people that person where in contact with.

I was really hoping it wouldn’t come to the point where I had to explain to you, that if you could create zombies in real life, you would be the equivalent of a Disney villain. It is a generally accepted truth that creating zombies is bad, hmmkay? Of course it is not possible in real life, but if it were, animating corpses would definitely be a wrong act.

I seriously hope there isn’t anyone else on this forum that disagrees with that statement. And people call ME mad.

first of murdering someone is evil in our sociaty yes it is tho that does not make it a evil act in it self thats true for all beings(even the once we dont know of) and a dragon cant be considered evil for killing off people as murder is first done when two of equal standing is invualved for that to happenen it should be general accepted that elder dragons is equal to any major race in tyria(and i dont belive they are that) makeing there act of killing of anyone else a killing sprea yes but not murder.

evil is still a mathere of the persons looking at it nothing else. if thats not true then all killing of the innorcent would be evil makeing all that kills a animal evil to makeing the conseption of this invalied as you then say all are evil and killing someone thats evil is not a act of evil meaning that as we are evil then the slaugther of us is not evil.

evil acts can be good acts seen from a diffrent sociaty tho that does not change that the origian sociaty sees them as evil and therfor condem them as evil, tho the othere sociaty will not call anyone doing that act evil.

whats evil about useing the corpes of the dead? heck we do it to this day and will always do it as they go into a circle where the dead gives nutrisiuns to the earth and its under world inhappeters that then moves it to diffrent locations and where it makes something grow that a animal eats(us or something we then kill later in the food chain for food) a corpse is nothing but a husk of meat there would be no wrong in useing it as you see fit if you remove the mathere of respect to the ones left behind.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It is a generally accepted truth that creating zombies is bad, hmmkay? Of course it is not possible in real life, but if it were, animating corpses would definitely be a wrong act.

and here your saying what i have been saying all along evil is nothing else then what the general groupe(in this chase most people) as demad evil, had the groupe demad it a act of good then animating a corpse is not evil but good(i know it must be hard to look at it without being tained with your own moral codes but try)

i have my own values that makes something good or evil and normaly they follow that of sociaty tho i can also look at things without that view as soon as i move to teory and thats all we are working in here, so i have placed a set of values for this conversation and made a moral codes i follow for this thats very diffrent then what my real life moral codes for nothing else then show that evil is nothing else then the eyes that view it

Korsbaek.9803:

first of murdering someone is evil in our sociaty yes it is tho that does not make it a evil act in it self thats true for all beings(even the once we dont know of)

What you are talking about is the perception of right and wrong by different groups of people. What I’m talking about is objective morality. Which does exist. You CAN draw logical conclusion of what is generally bad and generally good. For example, drinking lava is bad. It doesn’t matter if there is a society somewhere that believes drinking lava is good, it is still bad. It is objectively bad.

Korsbaek.9803:

and a dragon cant be considered evil for killing off people as murder is first done when two of equal standing is invualved for that to happenen

That is not true. Murderer and victim do not have to be of equal standing. Murder is simply killing innocent intelligent beings for your own nefarious reasons. Such a nefarious reason could be, wanting to drive a whole society away from lands you want to conquer, or wanting to exterminate intelligent beings that you simply hate. Like what the Elder Dragons do. And since they do not share any sympathy for us, or feel bad about their acts, they are there for committing evil acts.

Korsbaek.9803:

evil is still a mathere of the persons looking at it nothing else. if thats not true then all killing of the innorcent would be evil makeing all that kills a animal evil

No, slaughtering animals for consumption is not equal to murder. Which is why a farmer butchering his cow to sell the meat is not a criminal. But if your neighbor came over to shoot your dog, that would be murder (of an animal, but still murder). The Elder Dragons are not killing us and our children to consume us as food. They are killing us because they want to conquer the lands, and we’re in their way. They openly started wars against innocent beings that did not harm them in any way, and many of which are defenseless against them.

Korsbaek.9803:

whats evil about useing the corpes of the dead? heck we do it to this day and will always do it as they go into a circle where the dead gives nutrisiuns to the earth

We’re discussing the act of using some form of power to make corpses into your obedient servants. In our society that would be an evil act, without a doubt. A witch doctor creating an army of zombies is committing an act of evil. Dr Frankenstein making a monster out of bodyparts that he dug up, and then bringing them to life, is evil.

This is different from a corpse decaying naturally, and being absorbed by the soil. And different from spreading someone’s ashes over the land. It is the unnatural act of bringing something to a state of unlife, which was dead before. The reanimation of a corpse. Not to be confused with CPR, which is saving someone’s life.

Of course, the evil act of raising the dead doesn’t really apply in this case, since in Tyria it is a generally accepted act. That is simply how it was written by GW’s writers.

Korsbaek.9803:

i have my own values that makes something good or evil and normaly they follow that of sociaty tho i can also look at things without that view as soon as i move to teory and thats all we are working in here, so i have placed a set of values for this conversation and made a moral codes i follow for this thats very diffrent then what my real life moral codes for nothing else then show that evil is nothing else then the eyes that view it

Regardless of what your personal moral beliefs are, some acts are by definition wrong, since they harm another person, just to serve the nefarious purpose of someone else. Killing an old lady to take her money, is an act of evil. There is no way to validate it in any moral way. Because life is preferable over death. You wouldn’t want people taking your money, or your life. That is how we objectively define wrong acts.

The Elder Dragons are committing several atrocities at once. I’m surprised that anyone would call into question if they are evil or not. Would any of these deeds be considered good acts, if a human was doing them? Hell no!

And can anyone name any good act that the Elder Dragons have done? Just name one.

from our point of view it is morally wrong to use a corpse in that way yes but thats only from our point of view.

your drawing your conclusion based on human stand point and that is something cant be applyed here, drinking lava is bad from a human stand point, now a creatour useing lava as fluide would need to drink it to survive but they are doing a bad thing for surviving then as drinking lava is bad
im trying to show you that your useing a one pointed view nothing else and your point is western human based nothing else.

animating the dead to use there corpse is the same as makeing a robot and useing that nothing else, the only diffrence here is that the corpse have/had people that your sowing disrespect from our way of looking at the world be desturbing the corpse eternal rest but thats from our belives and view of the world that dont make it evil.
and yes a corpse is nothing but a husk of meat your moveing around, where a robot is something you are moveing about tho it can be metal or it can be meat.

so a elder dragon is not evil as they see us as cattle nothing else meaning that killing us will be the same as us killing cattle, and as you said that killing cattle is not a act of evil then a elder dragons act of killing its cattle is not evil eighter.

objective moralty can only be applyed into the spieces its used on as there is some spices that will call that action you need for survival evil and the othere way around.

The Elder Dragons are committing several atrocities at once. I’m surprised that anyone would call into question if they are evil or not. Would any of these deeds be considered good acts, if a human was doing them? Hell no!

And can anyone name any good act that the Elder Dragons have done? Just name one.

name one evil act that the elder dragons do that humans dont do thats evil.
killing humans, to the elder dragons we are a short lived race that is used as cattle for them so for them its killing cattle, when we kill cattle we are not evil then there act of killing there cattle is not evil.
corrupting there areas, the first thing humans do when comming to a new area is corrupting it to make it convinent for them to stay there as much as possible, that exactly what the elder dragons do so that cant be considered evil unless you call all the races evil but then killing off the evil races cant be a ct of evil eighter per your books defirntion.

a good act they do i cant but as we dont know why they are there and all we cant say they dont have a purpes at all, for all we know they can be the only reason we can sustain our lives on tyria because they take some of the magic into there own bodys so that there wont get so much magic floating freely that it will destroy teria, or some othere reason they are there that makes them a force of nature and derfor they are not evil in any way.

all i see your doing is setting a one sided set of morals that says what we do is good and what the elder dragons do is bad as we have intelligence or atleast we think we do, the gap between the intelligences can be the same gap between humans and cattle for all we know as it is human elder dragons.

Korsbaek.9803:

your drawing your conclusion based on human stand point and that is something cant be applyed here, drinking lava is bad from a human stand point, now a creatour useing lava as fluide would need to drink it to survive but they are doing a bad thing for surviving then as drinking lava is bad
im trying to show you that your useing a one pointed view nothing else and your point is western human based nothing else.

I’m drawing conclusions from common sense. You can’t draw moral conclusions from the stand point of creatures that have no morals.

Korsbaek.9803:

animating the dead to use there corpse is the same as makeing a robot and useing that nothing else, the only diffrence here is that the corpse have/had people that your sowing disrespect from our way of looking at the world be desturbing the corpse eternal rest but thats from our belives and view of the world that dont make it evil.
and yes a corpse is nothing but a husk of meat your moveing around, where a robot is something you are moveing about tho it can be metal or it can be meat.

They are most definitely not the same. One is an act of creation, the other is the unnatural act of bringing something back from the dead (and into a state of unlife). Unlife is the important part here. They are not actually alive, they are undead. Zombies. Zombies are evil.

Korsbaek.9803:

so a elder dragon is not evil as they see us as cattle nothing else meaning that killing us will be the same as us killing cattle, and as you said that killing cattle is not a act of evil then a elder dragons act of killing its cattle is not evil eighter.

Who says they see us as cattle? They don’t feed on us. We’re not food for them. They feed on magic. They exterminate us simply because they see no reason not to. Primordus could have just woken up and said hello. But instead he was already building an army BEFORE his awakening, so that he could drive the Asura away from the underground caverns. The Asura had not attacked him, or done anything against him. But he had been planning to destroy everything none the less. That is an act of evil.

And the important thing to remember here, is that the dragons could choose not to destroy everything. They are not like a force of nature, they do have their own will. They just don’t care about us. Much like a cruel dictator does not care about the people he harms. He may think of himself as good, and of his acts as justified. But the acts themselves are still objectively wrong.

Korsbaek.9803:

name one evil act that the elder dragons do that humans dont do thats evil.

They are committing genocide.

Korsbaek.9803:

corrupting there areas, the first thing humans do when comming to a new area is corrupting it to make it convinent for them to stay there as much as possible, that exactly what the elder dragons do

Oh really? Seen any landscapes twisted into nightmarish aberrations lately in human cities? Cutting down a forest is not the same as corrupting the land. Dumping nuclear waste on the other hand, that is a form of corruption.

And have you seen humans turn other creatures into grotesque nightmarish versions of themselves? Like what Jormag and Kralkatorrik do?

Korsbaek.9803:

a good act they do i cant but as we dont know why they are there and all we cant say they dont have a purpes at all

Irrelevant. They have not committed a single good act. Not one! Thus they are definitely not a force for good. They have however committed genocide. That is evil. They are evil. It’s not that difficult. You don’t have to know their motivations. The act itself is wrong what ever the explanation.

Merciful Grenth, things rarely get so clearly black and white. Does a necromancer really have to lecture people on the nature of evil? You can’t see for yourself that genocide of an intelligent species is evil?

your commen sense is that of a western human being nothing else, now apply a western human beings commen sense to a living intelligent creatur that sees eating anything in the form as we do as evil, then apply there commen sense to us will bring us to evil nothing else.(basicly what im trying to say is that your useing commen sense and moral of on living being and forceing it onto anothere and that is not fair)
and your saying that elder dragons dont have moral, just because there moral is diffrent then ours makes them amoral?

animating the dead or getting a corpse to move agien is not evil and how is it diffrent then makeing a robot? im not bring the person you know back in any way im useing hes flesh nothing else. that is completly the same as useing any othere beings flesh for something.

lets see human citys are each a corruption of the land that used to be, most of my contrues farm land is only possible to be used because of the destroyction/corruption of the land that where there before as almost all our crops could not grow there,
then comes the fact that each build we place is a corruption of the land and destroyction of the land that where there before, removel of forrest is in a huge degre is teraforming the area to a degree makeing a forrest into farmland for cropes but your still corrupting it from its original state witch is the forrest.

if we take it as the elder dragon is makeing genocide on our races then lets look at the genocides of the human races and use the fact that slaying evil is not evil in any way.

we dont even know if the only reason the elder dragons are killing us is because they have to defend themself from us meaning that makeing a army in self defense is totaly valid.

the first thing you need to do is change your look on it and see that your commen sense only applys to your race, as commen sense is made for the convines of the spices makeing the commen sense and the technology they have nothing else so dont try force your commen sense onto a diffrent race where its not valid witch is what your doing. i have not called the elder dragons evil but i have nighter called them good for all i know they can be good but hell they can also be evil i dont know as i dont understand the sense of the elder dragons and what commen sense and moral codes they use as they have one that you can be sure off.

Mike Winters.6871:

But their souls are free zhaitan just keeps the body and mind then throws out the soul except for champions like the eyes of zhaitan

It varies. Zhaitan’s corruption is a very strange one, as there are cases when only the body is corrupted (Crusader Aliyana’s poor soul was left unscathed when her former, risen friends had turned on her, but her body was corrupted into Zhaitan’s servitude), and times when both the body and the soul are affected – King Reza and the dead of the Orrian royalty are the best examples of the latter group. (Btw, there’s little difference between soul and mind in GW. Certainly, mind is more about mentality, but I consider the mind to be a part of the soul that is in connection with the brain, working side by side to make decisions based on morality/emotions (the soul) and physical needs, rationality, instincts. There are times when one overrules the other, however.)

And in my opinion, this difference in corruptive methods depends on the corruptor itself (or rather, the amount of draconic energy invested in corruption): if Zhaitan does it, he can not only bind the soul to the body, but snatch it from the Mists/afterlife. If a simple, mindless thrall does it, only the body is affected, the soul can break free and be unsullied by the curse.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thalador.4218:

I’m pretty sure many of them are glad for release. You forgot their line of “At last…” which is not ambiguous but quite definite on their view on their own undeath in the last moment of reclaimed clarity – when Zhaitan’s remote control curse lifts from their mind.

In light of this, I’m inclined to believe that “Rest…” is also an exclamation of joyous freedom from torment. The risen were snidely denied of their rest (the souls of some were snatched from the Mists even) after all. They can finally depart and be at peace.

See bolded.

Risen while alive don’t want to die. At all. But if Zhaitan’s influence is removed, then that desire of death may come. Though I doubt that anyone would be wanting death unless undead was very painful for them.

And the “Rest…” line doesn’t sound joyous at all. It just sounds… tiresome. Honestly, as if the risen aren’t dying but being tired out (which would probably fit with the books’ description of risen who’d keep going even if chopped to bits).

That we agree on. Yes, they don’t want to die under Zhaitan’s corruption, but then they have taken leave of their senses/are out of their mind because of the dragon’s curse. They are still enslaved, and they’re overjoyed when their torment ends with a final death that also rids them of the brainwash.

We can argue ’till kingdom come whether “Rest…” sounds joyous or tiresome. Maybe both. I say it is also an exclamation of their deserved return to peaceful afterlife, and nothing can change my view on that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I think we currently do not know if the corruption caused by the dragons on their minions is a corruption of the soul as well.

In the case of the kings and queens of Orr it certainly was… but they were all freed upon the destruction of their bodies… the curse was lifted.

Same goes with the Keeper of Grenth’s temple. Grenth wanted him back, and I doubt he would’ve craved the return of his servant so much if it resulted in a corrupt Orrian wraith running amok in the Mists, calling the “little” prince names.

@Malafide: I wholeheartedly agree with your views on evil and murder. Glad I’m not the only who can see this.

The dragons are definitely evil. That is why I actually consider them elemental, eldritch demons that took the shape of dragons/took over the strongest specimen during the primordial Age of the Dragons.

P.S.: That book, if changed to RL setting and examples, would be a good exemplary read for many.

@Korsbaek: Your moral compass is utterly haywire if you think things like that. You’re starting to sound like you actually killed an innocent human being, and now you’re trying to stifle your raging conscience by validating evil and speaking of evil as if it was the most natural thing in the world. Whereas it is not.

Korsbaek.9803:

your commen sense is that of a western human being nothing else, now apply a western human beings commen sense to a living intelligent creatur that sees eating anything in the form as we do as evil, then apply there commen sense to us will bring us to evil nothing else.(basicly what im trying to say is that your useing commen sense and moral of on living being and forceing it onto anothere and that is not fair)

It is entirely fair to make that judgement, because we see the dragons make evil decissions. We see them start wars against creatures that did them no harm. That has nothing to do with hunting for food, it’s genocide. There is a big difference.

Korsbaek.9803:

and your saying that elder dragons dont have moral, just because there moral is diffrent then ours makes them amoral?

No, they literally have no moral code. They don’t care about us, which has been literally stated by the writers. They don’t care if we live or die, and they feel fine with causing any harm to us that they wish. Whether is means killing us, or corrupting us, or enslaving us.

Korsbaek.9803:

animating the dead or getting a corpse to move agien is not evil and how is it diffrent then makeing a robot? im not bring the person you know back in any way im useing hes flesh nothing else. that is completly the same as useing any othere beings flesh for something.

Making a robot, is creating artificial life from nothing. Raising the dead, is using dark powers to make something partially alive, that was dead before. And it is also the creation/summoning of an evil creature. Undead are evil beings.

Korsbaek.9803:

lets see human citys are each a corruption of the land that used to be, most of my contrues farm land is only possible to be used because of the destroyction/corruption of the land that where there before as almost all our crops could not grow there,

While industrialization can have harmful affects on the land, it is not equal to corruption. When Kralkatorrik flew across Ascalon, he left a shattered ruined landscape underneath him, the sky blackened and filled with bolts of lightning. And all creatures in its wake were twisted into nightmarish corrupted beings of crystal. I think we can both see how building a city, and creating the Brand are not on equal footing.

Korsbaek.9803:

if we take it as the elder dragon is makeing genocide on our races then lets look at the genocides of the human races and use the fact that slaying evil is not evil in any way.

If humans commit genocide, that is an evil act as well. If humans slay evil creatures, without doing it for personal gain (but to protect others, and stop the creature from doing more evil) then that is an act of good. Humans are not by definition evil. They can do evil acts, and some may be more corrupt than others (after all, there are human villains), but the Elder Dragons kill humans regardless of whether they are good or evil. They don’t care.

Korsbaek.9803:

we dont even know if the only reason the elder dragons are killing us is because they have to defend themself from us meaning that makeing a army in self defense is totaly valid.

You only build an army if you need to defend yourself, or if you plan to attack others. If you build an army for the soul purpose of destroying a civilization that has done you no harm, then that is an act of evil.

Korsbaek.9803:

for all i know they can be good but hell they can also be evil i dont know as i dont understand the sense of the elder dragons and what commen sense and moral codes they use as they have one that you can be sure off.

Like I said, you don’t need their motives to judge some of their actions. A thief may steal a loaf of bread because he’s hungry, or he might steal someone’s ring because it’s easy money. Motives matter in that case. But if you commit genocide, the motive no longer matters, it’s genocide. It doesn’t matter if you believe you are saving the world, or if a deity told you to do it. The act itself is evil. Most villains commit their evil acts because they think it is the right thing to do. That does not change the nature of their crimes.

And I realize this perhaps contradicts with the personal faiths of some of the readers on this forum, since some real world religions explicitly praise the genocide that their benevolent deity ordered them to commit. So that is why I’m being careful not to name any specific real religions. But it’s food for thought. Morality is not as subjective as you think.

Thalador.4218:

@Korsbaek: Your moral compass is utterly haywire if you think things like that. You’re starting to sound like you actually killed an innocent human being, and now you’re trying to stifle your raging conscience by validating evil and speaking of evil as if it was the most natural thing in the world. Whereas it is not.

first i have not killed anyone and my moral compase is not haywire in any way all there is to it is i dont force my moral codes anywhere it dont belong it fits any human yes but any othere race it wont fit completly as they might have othere basic things thats diffrent then ours makeing there codes a diffrent way and there sense diffrent.
tho my view of life is diffrent then most people and the same with my view on death.

seeing the dragons trough human eyes will make them diffrent yes that it will tho seen trough there own eyes or the eyes of there race is a totally diffrent mather and the only one able to judge them evil is there own race and thats what im basing the fact that they are not evil on. lets say we had a intelligent being other then humans on earth would it be evil to make genocide on them? would it still be evil to make genocide on them if your race needs to do it for there survival?

Thalador.4218:

@Malafide: I wholeheartedly agree with your views on evil and murder. Glad I’m not the only who can see this.

I’m kind of surprised how few people seem to be on the same page as me. But maybe I can change their minds.

Thalador.4218:

P.S.: That book, if changed to RL setting and examples, would be a good exemplary read for many.
.

If it weren’t for all the other mature content. It is a rather dark book. But the reason I picked it, is because the definitions of evil and evil acts are so clear and reasonable.

Korsbaek.9803:

seeing the dragons trough human eyes will make them diffrent yes that it will tho seen trough there own eyes or the eyes of there race is a totally diffrent mather and the only one able to judge them evil is there own race and thats what im basing the fact that they are not evil on.

If we look through the eyes of a deranged serial killer, then by his morals he’s not doing anything wrong at all. See how that works?

Korsbaek.9803:

lets say we had a intelligent being other then humans on earth would it be evil to make genocide on them? would it still be evil to make genocide on them if your race needs to do it for there survival?

I think you already know the answer to that, if you’ve been paying attention. Ironically, that was also what the ending to Space Above And Beyond was all about.

This question can also easily be translated to an actual real world scenario. What if you are at war with a country, and decide to drop a nuclear bomb on that country. Is that morally wrong?

You should know the answer by now.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

seeing the dragons trough human eyes will make them diffrent yes that it will tho seen trough there own eyes or the eyes of there race is a totally diffrent mather and the only one able to judge them evil is there own race and thats what im basing the fact that they are not evil on.

If we look through the eyes of a deranged serial killer, then by his morals he’s not doing anything wrong at all. See how that works?
.

that serial killer is still a race if its a human then a human moral codes is to some degree ok to put on him but is he of a diffrent race then you cant put the human moral code on him thats all

as something is wrong for a race perspectiv but that might not be true for the next race and there is a big diffrence there as your forceing your human moral down on a dragon that with a high chance live by a diffrent set of moral

Korsbaek.9803:

that serial killer is still a race if its a human then a human moral codes is to some degree ok to put on him but is he of a diffrent race then you cant put the human moral code on him thats all

Yes you can. What matters is that we’re talking about an intelligent being that does not share our morals. So the species really doesn’t make a difference.

For example, if an Asura goes on a killing spree, the act of murder is still wrong, regardless of human morals or Asura morals. And Asura may think less of humans, but murder is still murder. It is no different from a serial killer. What matters is that the act itself is wrong. You are taking the lives of innocents for your own nefarious reasons.

Korsbaek.9803:

as something is wrong for a race perspectiv but that might not be true for the next race and there is a big diffrence there as your forceing your human moral down on a dragon that with a high chance live by a diffrent set of moral

There are no indications that the Elder Dragons have any morals to speak of…. and you didn’t fill in the last question btw. Would genocide of a different species be wrong? Or would dropping a nuclear bomb on a country you are at war with be wrong?

I’d like to know your answer to that. Because I think my stance on it should be clear by now.

genocide of a spices is not wrong if there is a reason for it genoside for the sace of genoside is wrong tho.
dropping a nuke is not wrong but its not evil but its defendly not good eighter.
there is the chase that both the asura and the human both share the point of view that killing is wrong but who says that the dragon shares that moral with us?
a elder dragon has a set of moral if its a intelligent being tho we can then take it to debat if we agree on the set of moral from our stand point but thats a totaly diffrent chase.
the interaction between human and asura gives the human the abilty to judge the asura and the other way around but we have no understanding of the elder dragons and without it we have no means to judge it as we cant say it does something evil seen from its race way of life or not, all we can say is that from our point of view they are evil but that does not make them evil at all, its just our look at them that see them as evil.
an easy example, 2 contrues in war sees itself as good and the other evil or as a lesser race without the rights they apply to themself

then ill make it clear with a row of questions.
why is it wrong to comit a murder?
if you base it on commen sense then where does that commen sense come from?
if you say its a act of evil then what makes it evil?
then you will proberly say that because someone is dead by it then why is it wrong to put someone to death as death is a part of life you can not get around so why is it evil to “help” someone get there faster?
if you then say its because someone is lossing a famelie member/fiend or what not then why is it bad when death is part of life?
all it boils down to in the end is survival of the spieces and thats where our commen sense and moral comes from, then if the elder draong spices need to comit genorcide on the other races to survive its commen sense for them to do so and morally correct.

Korsbaek.9803:

genocide of a spices is not wrong if there is a reason for it genoside for the sace of genoside is wrong tho.

Give me a reason that would make genocide right.

Korsbaek.9803:

dropping a nuke is not wrong but its not evil but its defendly not good eighter.

Does dropping a nuke on a country kill innocent people and their children? Yes.

Is killing innocent people and their children wrong? Yes.

Thus, dropping a nuke is wrong. It is an evil deed. Your reasons for using such a weapon no longer matter.

Korsbaek.9803:

there is the chase that both the asura and the human both share the point of view that killing is wrong but who says that the dragon shares that moral with us?

He doesn’t have to share that idea. The act is still evil.

Korsbaek.9803:

a elder dragon has a set of moral if its a intelligent being tho we can then take it to debat if we agree on the set of moral from our stand point but thats a totaly diffrent chase.

You would have to make that case first, because so far there is no evidence that they have any morals. And regardless if we agree with them, murder is still wrong. There is no situation under which murder can be considered the right thing to do.

Korsbaek.9803:

the interaction between human and asura gives the human the abilty to judge the asura and the other way around but we have no understanding of the elder dragons and without it we have no means to judge it as we cant say it does something evil seen from its race way of life or not, all we can say is that from our point of view they are evil but that does not make them evil at all, its just our look at them that see them as evil.

No, you are still missing the point. You do not have to know someone’s moral reasons in order to judge some wrongful acts. If a serial killer slaughters a school full of children, you don’t need to know his motives. Doesn’t matter what race he is, there is no excuse for it. The Elder Dragons commit such atrocities. You can clearly point them out as wrongful acts without knowing the dragon’s reasons behind it. No argument will make such a wrong act into one that is right.

Korsbaek.9803:

then ill make it clear with a row of questions.
why is it wrong to comit a murder?
if you base it on commen sense then where does that commen sense come from?
if you say its a act of evil then what makes it evil?
then you will proberly say that because someone is dead by it then why is it wrong to put someone to death as death is a part of life you can not get around so why is it evil to “help” someone get there faster?

Because in the case of murder, that person does not wish to die. You are taking someone’s life against his or her will, for your own nefarious reasons. That is what makes it a wrong act. That is what makes it different from self defense, or from soldiers who are at war with enemies combatants.

Korsbaek.9803:

all it boils down to in the end is survival of the spieces and thats where our commen sense and moral comes from, then if the elder draong spices need to comit genorcide on the other races to survive its commen sense for them to do so and morally correct.

No it does not boil down to that. We are not animals. We have reasoning and choice, and so do the Elder Dragons. We can choose not to commit murder, and so can they. There is NEVER a need to commit genocide. NEVER.

Lame. What I thought would be an interesting thread turned into bickering. I hope you two are having fun. :P

Nayaru.4716:

Lame. What I thought would be an interesting thread turned into bickering. I hope you two are having fun. :P

Are you kidding me? This is a most interesting and deep exploration of morality. It’s a matter of subjective morality versus objective morality.

And I hope it changes the way some of the people on this topic see the nature of the Elder Dragons, and the way they see morality in real life.

unforntly i give up trying to use reason to mad queen as she/he cant see anything other then whats right and wrong from hes/her persepctiv anything else is unimportent and if it brings harm to her/him then it must be evil there is no othere explanation to it.

sorry but i cant agree with him/her in any way at all as he/she as set to mind thakittens wrong and its wrong because its wrong wich is not a way to argue at all, i have used reasoning to deduct that it might not be evil at all atleast from there perspectiv witch dont make them evil.

Ahh, I couldn’t bother going through all of this… But I feel like I should point out that this whole debate is silly. For crying out loud, some of you are talking as if the actions of all-powerful primordial beings that might not even be alive in the same sense as we are were within the reach of our morals.

Second, the original question is answered easily. Do you think they are evil? If you do, from the point of view of the observer you, they are evil. It’s that simple. If the observer thinks something is evil, then for that observer that is a fact.

@ Malafide:

Just going to nitpick here, because there’s been talk of necromancy between you two and I’m interested in your take on necromancy – specifically in Tyria and GW2.

Here in Tyria, we’ve seen two different types of necromancy: Zhaitan’s, and the PC profession as the second.

Zhaitan’s version of necromancy, which is to raise the dead with their souls inside the bodies and force them to do his bidding. As far as we know, though, the spirit should be restored to normal upon the Risen’s death – although I use the Personal Story as my example, that just might be the power of Caladbolg.

Then there is necromancy as we use it as a player-character. With the exception of the shadow fiend (as it’s not a zombie), all of our minions are created from the parts of dead bodies. Not the whole thing, and definitely not forcing the souls of the dead into the bodies to do our bidding.

I can agree that what Zhaitan does is evil – not only does he force people (albeit dead ones) to do his bidding, he also corrupts their bodies (even newly-made Risen seem to have rotted for a while), as well as their minds. “My will is Zhaitan’s!”

But for the player character, are we evil? Sure, we are messing with dead bodies – but we’re not hurting anyone by doing it – especially the dead for whom the bodies originally belonged to. So are Tyrian necromancers evil in that regard?

Korsbaek.9803:

sorry but i cant agree with him/her in any way at all as he/she as set to mind thakittens wrong and its wrong because its wrong wich is not a way to argue at all, i have used reasoning to deduct that it might not be evil at all atleast from there perspectiv witch dont make them evil.

The problem here is that you haven’t actually provided good arguments for your point of view.

• You’ve outright stated that genocide can be okay with the right reasons.
• You’ve outright stated that murder can be okay, if society agrees on it.
• You’ve said that raising an army of zombies is perfectly fine, even in real life.

And I’ve pointed out the mistakes in your reasoning. There is no excuse for genocide. Not even self defense can be an excuse to wipe out an entire race/civilization. Murder is also never okay, because under the definition that I gave of murder, it is always without a doubt a wrong act.

Now that doesn’t mean people can’t commit murder for understandable reasons. A woman may murder her husband after years of abuse. We can understand her reasoning, but it is still a wrongful act. That’s common sense. And fortunately our laws are mostly based on common sense, and less so on just what feels nice.

No matter how you twist your reasoning, the fact remains that these Elder Dragons willingly commit genocide against creatures that initially did them no harm, and were defenseless against them.

Evil doesn’t often come so clear cut.

Keyce.8137:

@ Malafide:

Just going to nitpick here, because there’s been talk of necromancy between you two and I’m interested in your take on necromancy – specifically in Tyria and GW2.

Here in Tyria, we’ve seen two different types of necromancy: Zhaitan’s, and the PC profession as the second.

Zhaitan’s version of necromancy, which is to raise the dead with their souls inside the bodies and force them to do his bidding. As far as we know, though, the spirit should be restored to normal upon the Risen’s death – although I use the Personal Story as my example, that just might be the power of Caladbolg.

Then there is necromancy as we use it as a player-character. With the exception of the shadow fiend (as it’s not a zombie), all of our minions are created from the parts of dead bodies. Not the whole thing, and definitely not forcing the souls of the dead into the bodies to do our bidding.

I can agree that what Zhaitan does is evil – not only does he force people (albeit dead ones) to do his bidding, he also corrupts their bodies (even newly-made Risen seem to have rotted for a while), as well as their minds. “My will is Zhaitan’s!”

But for the player character, are we evil? Sure, we are messing with dead bodies – but we’re not hurting anyone by doing it – especially the dead for whom the bodies originally belonged to. So are Tyrian necromancers evil in that regard?

That is a most interesting question, and thank you for asking this. The people of Tyria themselves are divided on this issue, and so should we be.

Necromancers , calling on the spirits of the dead, and even death itself, to overpower enemies and assist allies. In sacrificing Health and taking curses and diseases upon themselves, they can deal large amounts of damage to those foolish enough to oppose them. Dead and dying enemies become unwilling allies in their hands. Necromancers have the singular ability to absorb Energy from an enemy’s death, and can raise a fighting force from the corpses of their foes. Curses, which often cost the Necromancer dearly, exact an even greater toll from enemies, who find that their Enchantments and healing skills are rendered useless. Due to the sacrificial nature of their methods, Necromancers must practice patience and self-discipline to survive.

I think under this definition of necromancy in GW1, it is not an evil act (but it can be). Because we are not necessarily forcing the souls of the deceased to do our bidding. We are asking them to help us, and then spirits freely enter the bodies we’ve summoned to aid us in battle (at least, this is the Guild Wars Manuscript definition). We are not enslaving anyone perse, but using our own innate magic and willpower to assemble body parts into these mindless minions, and then calling upon spirits to inhabit these vessels. We also do not corrupt any souls. And necromancers also do not usually summon minions at a graveyard, so they respect the bodies of other people. (unless they are evil necromancers, cast out by society)

There are however exceptions. Necromancers can also summon unwilling souls to do their bidding, according to the Guild Wars manuscripts. How do you tell the difference?

It is also important to note that in Tyria, Grenth decides over life and death, and necromancers act within his laws. They have his permission to use these powers, and they respectfully use it. Whether Grenth would act against misuse of necromancy is unknown. There have been plenty of evil necromancers who could use their powers just fine. Dhuum did not think it was fine however, if I remember correctly.

However, the flesh and bones that are summoned from the ground, belong to various unknown creatures, that are quickly assembled into this temporary form. It is a morally questionable practice, since the soil can also contain the remains of human soldiers for example. And in GW1 necromancers could raise minions from the bodies of their deceased party members. Certainly that is an act of defiling the dead.

So I suppose the act of making minions in itself is not evil. But it depends what you make them from, and if the souls willingly aid you. Some of the other necromancer spells also operate in a gray area, because they sometimes involve forms of corruption (such as corrupting boons, and sending forth plagues). But these actions are done in combat, and not for perverse pleasure. So no, I would not consider that evil. But I wouldn’t call it good either. It’s a gray area.

Tuomir.1830:

Second, the original question is answered easily. Do you think they are evil? If you do, from the point of view of the observer you, they are evil. It’s that simple. If the observer thinks something is evil, then for that observer that is a fact.

That’s over-simplifying the issue. There is such a thing as objective morality.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s over-simplifying the issue. There is such a thing as objective morality.

No there isnt.
And saying there is would be over-simplifying the issue

your going from that animating the dead is evil to that the act in itself is not evil can you decide? and from what you say i understand that as long as there i no human remains in it then its not wrong but if there is then its wrong and evil, thats so wrong way of going trough it in my oppinion as eighter the act is evil or its not.
genocide is something done for veriose reasons(one can be survival of your own spieces where you have the choice of makeing genocide on that race or let your own race die)
murder is per defianition wrong yes but killing a person is not but thats given the meaning of murder, as its killing someone within a sociaty that marks them a equals and living under the same set of rules but killing someone can have verisos othere things invalved one can be surviavel and alot of other stuff but as said as long as you see its evil then its evil FOR YOU yes and i have agreed to that but then from another persepctiv where the action CAN and MIGHT be seen as something thats normal and not evil then from there persepctiv the action is NOT EVIL and that is what i have been trying to reason with you.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s over-simplifying the issue. There is such a thing as objective morality.

I can’t deny the possibility of universal right and wrong, but I can assure, there is absolutely no way a living being could know what it would be. We are all bound to our own viewpoints, being the primary observers for ourselves.

Korsbaek.9803:

your going from that animating the dead is evil to that the act in itself is not evil can you decide?

This has to do with the fuzzy nature of the way necromancy is presented in Tyria, and the abstract concepts that are involved which do not exist in real life (such as The Mists, gods, magic and souls).

It is also important to point out that GW2’s necromancers form their creations from various natural remains in the ground, while the sort of necromancy that we were talking about involved deliberately bringing human corpses to life, and creating zombies.

Minions are not zombies. Minion contain souls, which can be neutral, especially if a necromancer loses its bond with one. I’m not saying it is a good practice, but in GW2 it is a questionable practice. In real life it would definitely be evil.

Another difference is the forces involved. In GW2 magic is a generally accepted concept, and various individuals have a natural talent for it. It appears in many form, and is linked to the human gods. In real life this is not the case, and would without a doubt be an unnatural act, requiring dark powers (if such powers did indeed exist).

Korsbaek.9803:

and from what you say i understand that as long as there i no human remains in it then its not wrong but if there is then its wrong and evil, thats so wrong way of going trough it in my oppinion as eighter the act is evil or its not.

Taxidermy isn’t considered an evil act. But it also involves using remains of deceased creatures. It is not unnatural to display remains of deceased beings who no longer have living relatives to care about the remains.

In GW2 it would without a doubt be considered a horrendous crime to stand on a public graveyard and start raising minions. Such a site is the resting place of many relatives of people that are still alive, and it would be a gross violation of their feelings. The people that are buried at a graveyard are taken care of, so they remain undisturbed. That is the whole purpose of a graveyard. To disturb that peace is a crime in and of itself.

Korsbaek.9803:

genocide is something done for veriose reasons(one can be survival of your own spieces where you have the choice of makeing genocide on that race or let your own race die)

There can never be a situation where you must eradicate an entire species, just to ensure the survival of your own. If you already have them at that breaking point, then killing more of them cannot be justified. You can validate the killing of thousands of enemy combatants, but at some point you are left with just innocent defenseless people. Once you start killing those, you can no longer defend your actions.

Korsbaek.9803:

murder is per defianition wrong yes but killing a person is not but thats given the meaning of murder, as its killing someone within a sociaty that marks them a equals and living under the same set of rules but killing someone can have verisos othere things invalved one can be surviavel and alot of other stuff but as said as long as you see its evil then its evil FOR YOU yes and i have agreed to that but then from another persepctiv where the action CAN and MIGHT be seen as something thats normal and not evil then from there persepctiv the action is NOT EVIL and that is what i have been trying to reason with you.

Killing is not under discussion here. Murder is. I have given a very clear definition of what I mean by murder. I accept the definition given by the Book of Vile Darkness. And this is exactly what the Elder Dragons are doing. They are committing murder.

Tuomir.1830:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s over-simplifying the issue. There is such a thing as objective morality.

I can’t deny the possibility of universal right and wrong, but I can assure, there is absolutely no way a living being could know what it would be. We are all bound to our own viewpoints, being the primary observers for ourselves.

I disagree. We can all logically come to the conclusion that murdering an innocent person for the nefarious purposes of yourself, is always a wrong act. Not killing, but murder specifically, under the definition that I gave. It is objectively always a wrong act.

ok first a given spiece makes a posion in the air that your race will die of now you have 4 ways to go eighter make genocide on said spices, let your own die, travel to a diffrent planet or they gets sent to a diffrent planet. and given we cant travel in space to a degree where sending a spiecs to a diffrent plantet there is 2 options left genocide of there spices or the extiongion of yours,

its murder for us but does the dragons see it as murder if not then they are not commint murder but just killing some cattle, you can only comiet murder on a race you see equal to your own.

ill say it one last time the elder dragons are evil from our point of view but from theres i can not say but they might not be evil in any way from that side and in the mather of fact we might be the evil once from there point of view.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I disagree. We can all logically come to the conclusion that murdering an innocent person for the nefarious purposes of yourself, is always a wrong act. Not killing, but murder specifically, under the definition that I gave. It is objectively always a wrong act.

So, lets say I know that person X will turn into a crazy dictator and start a war that will decimate humanity, would it be evil of me to murder him?
I would do it for the sake of humanity after all, and yet I would murder him, which would be evil in your eyes.

lordkrall.7241:

So, lets say I know that person X will turn into a crazy dictator and start a war that will decimate humanity, would it be evil of me to murder him?

Yes it would, because murder implies nefarious reasons to kill him.

lordkrall.7241:

I would do it for the sake of humanity after all, and yet I would murder him, which would be evil in your eyes.

Murdering someone is always evil, because the reasons for committing the killing are nefarious. If the reasons are not nefarious, but you are trying to save lives, then your reasons are not nefarious, but you are still taking a life when you don’t have to. There are other ways to stop a cruel dictator other then killing him. And people aren’t guilty until they’ve actually committed a crime.

This is why a concept such as in Minority Report would be morally wrong. You can’t convict people for crimes they might/will commit in the future.

Korsbaek.9803:

ok first a given spiece makes a posion in the air that your race will die of now you have 4 ways to go eighter make genocide on said spices, let your own die, travel to a diffrent planet or they gets sent to a diffrent planet. and given we cant travel in space to a degree where sending a spiecs to a diffrent plantet there is 2 options left genocide of there spices or the extiongion of yours,

It would still be genocide, and it would still be wrong. The necessity of the act does not change the nature of the act. Even genocide for the best reasons is still genocide, and there for wrong.

Korsbaek.9803:

its murder for us but does the dragons see it as murder if not then they are not commint murder but just killing some cattle, you can only comiet murder on a race you see equal to your own.

This is also not true. A slave driver may see his slaves as cattle, and they may even be of a different race. But killing them for nefarious reasons is still murder. It doesn’t matter if the murderer feels he’s committing murder. Like I said, he might think that he’s doing the right thing.

In fact, there was a recent case in The Netherlands where a patient in a hospital believed himself to be inside Silent Hill. If he thinks all the nurses are not human, but monsters, does that mean he’s not committing murder if he stabs them? It’s still murder!

Korsbaek.9803:

ill say it one last time the elder dragons are evil from our point of view but from theres i can not say but they might not be evil in any way from that side and in the mather of fact we might be the evil once from there point of view.

But your arguments for this statement fall apart on close examination.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s over-simplifying the issue. There is such a thing as objective morality.

I can’t deny the possibility of universal right and wrong, but I can assure, there is absolutely no way a living being could know what it would be. We are all bound to our own viewpoints, being the primary observers for ourselves.

I disagree. We can all logically come to the conclusion that murdering an innocent person for the nefarious purposes of yourself, is always a wrong act. Not killing, but murder specifically, under the definition that I gave. It is objectively always a wrong act.

From our viewpoint, with our logic. I say “our”, because I happen to share the idea from my viewpoint, but I also acknowledge that my viewpoint is far from absolute. No viewpoint can be absolute, no matter whose, no matter how many share it. Morals based on our logic apply only for as long as our logic applies. If a deranged murderer kills a person, from my viewpoint that is unquestionably evil. However, if the murderer is the observer, from that viewpoint he might not be committing an evil act. In this case, we can quite safely trust that our viewpoint is not fallacious, but it’s not always so simple. Imagine yourself in an empty room, empty besides a red cube in the middle of the room and another person besides you. You both leave, and are asked what you saw. If the other person answers that he saw a blue sphere, was it a red cube or a blue sphere that was in the room?

How this applies to this case? If an elder dragon is the observer, it likely does not consider it’s own actions evil. People affected by it’s actions likely consider them evil. Are you saying you can truly objectively say that one is true above the other?

No, murder simply implies that it was a planned act, no matter the actual reason for it.

Tuomir.1830:

If a deranged murderer kills a person, from my viewpoint that is unquestionably evil. However, if the murderer is the observer, from that viewpoint he might not be committing an evil act.

But he is deranged. His viewpoint does not matter. Murder can be defined as always being wrong, because life is preferable over death, and because someone is being killed against his/her will for nefarious reasons. These constant do not suddenly change because of someone’s different point of view.

Korsbaek.9803:

In this case, we can quite safely trust that our viewpoint is not fallacious, but it’s not always so simple. Imagine yourself in an empty room, empty besides a red cube in the middle of the room and another person besides you. You both leave, and are asked what you saw. If the other person answers that he saw a blue sphere, was it a red cube or a blue sphere that was in the room?

The object is still the same object, regardless of what either person perceived. Both of them could have been hallucinating, and the object could have been a hedgehog. Regardless of what they both think they saw, the object would still be a hedgehog.

Korsbaek.9803:

How this applies to this case? If an elder dragon is the observer, it likely does not consider it’s own actions evil. People affected by it’s actions likely consider them evil. Are you saying you can truly objectively say that one is true above the other?

YES! Life is always better than death, unless someone desires death out of their own free will (in the case of horrible suffering for example). But the elder dragons are taking lives against people’s wills, for nefarious reasons (they want to conquer the land), when they have the option not to. They do not need to kill us to survive, since they feed on magic.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

If a deranged murderer kills a person, from my viewpoint that is unquestionably evil. However, if the murderer is the observer, from that viewpoint he might not be committing an evil act.

But he is deranged. His viewpoint does not matter. Murder can be defined as always being wrong, because life is preferable over death, and because someone is being killed against his/her will for nefarious reasons. These constant do not suddenly change because of someone’s different point of view.

In this case, we can quite safely trust that our viewpoint is not fallacious, but it’s not always so simple. Imagine yourself in an empty room, empty besides a red cube in the middle of the room and another person besides you. You both leave, and are asked what you saw. If the other person answers that he saw a blue sphere, was it a red cube or a blue sphere that was in the room?

The object is still the same object, regardless of what either person perceived. Both of them could have been hallucinating, and the object could have been a hedgehog. Regardless of what they both think they saw, the object would still be a hedgehog.

Regardless of what the reality is, you act by your perception of it. Because your perception can potentially be flawed, you can’t know with certainty if it’s you or the person you perceive mad that is crazy. If you saw a red cube, and the other person saw a blue sphere, it doesn’t matter if it was a hedgehog all along if neither perceived it as such. It’s a question of whether or not you can trust your own perception to be true when it comes to conflict with that of someone else. No one knows the reality, because we all perceive it through our potentially flawed senses.

Tuomir.1830:

Regardless of what the reality is, you act by your perception of it. Because your perception can potentially be flawed, you can’t know with certainty if it’s you or the person you perceive mad that is crazy. If you saw a red cube, and the other person saw a blue sphere, it doesn’t matter if it was a hedgehog all along if neither perceived it as such. It’s a question of whether or not you can trust your own perception to be true when it comes to conflict with that of someone else. No one knows the reality, because we all perceive it through our potentially flawed senses.

I don’t subscribe to this logic at all. If that were the case, we could never come to any sort of reasonable moral system.

Take the Elder Dragons for example. Their destruction causes immense suffering among the various species on Tyria. The Elder Dragons may not see it this way, but they would be wrong. Regardless of biased perceptions, the suffering is still there.

This is the same reason why we don’t adapt to the line of thinking of mad people in real life. Some perceptions of reality can be proven to be wrong, and some can be proven to be correct. We all have our own opinions on morality, but reality doesn’t suddenly change. A hedgehog isn’t suddenly a red sphere, just because someone sees it that way. If he touches it, it still stings him in the fingers (or gives him flees, because hedgehogs are riddle with those).

first off look up the meaning of nefarious then continue with useing it this way;)
it means soemthing agienst divine laws, sins, crime, abominable(wich means ill omen),
the way you use it makes no sense

we will argue that life is bether then death any day but thats only based on our instinces if said instinces said something else then something else would be applyed.

do you really believe they have the option not to kill us to survive?
magic is mostly dominated by the major races of tyria then killing them to get control of your food supply is the logical choice of actions to take.

the meterfor is there for showing that nighter has the right to say that there truth is the abekitten truth nothing else.

all we have been trying to teach you mad queen is that not everything is the same way as you see it and your oppinion is not the true truth but its effected by you the same can be applyed to me to tho.

why does a supposebly deranges persons view point not mather can you prove hes world is true or your is?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem here is that you haven’t actually provided good arguments for your point of view.

• You’ve outright stated that genocide can be okay with the right reasons.
• You’ve outright stated that murder can be okay, if society agrees on it.
• You’ve said that raising an army of zombies is perfectly fine, even in real life.

And I’ve pointed out the mistakes in your reasoning. There is no excuse for genocide. Not even self defense can be an excuse to wipe out an entire race/civilization. Murder is also never okay, because under the definition that I gave of murder, it is always without a doubt a wrong act.

Now that doesn’t mean people can’t commit murder for understandable reasons. A woman may murder her husband after years of abuse. We can understand her reasoning, but it is still a wrongful act. That’s common sense. And fortunately our laws are mostly based on common sense, and less so on just what feels nice.

No matter how you twist your reasoning, the fact remains that these Elder Dragons willingly commit genocide against creatures that initially did them no harm, and were defenseless against them.

Evil doesn’t often come so clear cut.

The bold part goes against your stance on the Elder Dragons. If there is NO excuse for genocide why are you willing to commit it by killing off all the Elder Dragons?

Murder is also subjective like was said earlier if person A kills person B without a known reason it is an evil act but if the reason was self defense or defense of a family member or child is it still an evil act?

I’ll use your example of a woman killing her abusive husband after years of abuse. Would the family of the husband not feel that what she did was evil? Regardless of if she could prove he was abusive his family would still see it as evil, she could have fled, if she could prove it why not fill charges and have him arrested first, or any other option available to her before turning to taking a life.

If a tribe willingly sacrifices a member every six months and everyone agrees that this practice needs to happen is the act evil? It is not to those within the tribe but it would be to anyone outside the tribe. Now which opinion is more important to the members of the tribe?

Korsbaek.9803:

first off look up the meaning of nefarious then continue with useing it this way;)
it means soemthing agienst divine laws, sins, crime, abominable(wich means ill omen),
the way you use it makes no sense

This is exactly how I meant it. Nefarious is applied in the correct way here. Or to expand on what I mean with nefarious: Wicked, vile, flagitious, heinous, atrocious.

Korsbaek.9803:

we will argue that life is bether then death any day but thats only based on our instinces if said instinces said something else then something else would be applyed.

I doubt there are any living creatures who choose death over life, unless they are experiencing such suffering that death is a better alternative.

Korsbaek.9803:

do you really believe they have the option not to kill us to survive?magic is mostly dominated by the major races of tyria then killing them to get control of your food supply is the logical choice of actions to take.

We are not their food supply. There are many sources of magic in Tyria, not in the least of which are the Bloodstones. Since the Elder Dragons are creatures with a mind of their own, they can choose to kill or not to kill us. The fact that they don’t care, shows they have no sympathy for us, nor for our suffering. That again, is evil behavior.

Mist.6217:

The bold part goes against your stance on the Elder Dragons. If there is NO excuse for genocide why are you willing to commit it by killing off all the Elder Dragons?

Killing evil creatures to stop their evil deeds is not an evil act in itself. I refer to you back to the definition of murder a few pages back, as given in the Book of Vile Darkness. Heroes killing an evil creature is not genocide.

Mist.6217:

Murder is also subjective like was said earlier if person A kills person B without a known reason it is an evil act but if the reason was self defense or defense of a family member or child is it still an evil act?

No. Again, please read the definition of murder from a few pages back.

Mist.6217:

I’ll use your example of a woman killing her abusive husband after years of abuse. Would the family of the husband not feel that what she did was evil?

I already said that it was an evil act. Murder is murder.

Mist.6217:

If a tribe willingly sacrifices a member every six months and everyone agrees that this practice needs to happen is the act evil? It is not to those within the tribe but it would be to anyone outside the tribe. Now which opinion is more important to the members of the tribe?

If a person willingly sacrifices his own life, that is his choice. If someone is being killed against his/her will, it’s murder.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

Regardless of what the reality is, you act by your perception of it. Because your perception can potentially be flawed, you can’t know with certainty if it’s you or the person you perceive mad that is crazy. If you saw a red cube, and the other person saw a blue sphere, it doesn’t matter if it was a hedgehog all along if neither perceived it as such. It’s a question of whether or not you can trust your own perception to be true when it comes to conflict with that of someone else. No one knows the reality, because we all perceive it through our potentially flawed senses.

I don’t subscribe to this logic at all. If that were the case, we could never come to any sort of reasonable moral system.

Take the Elder Dragons for example. Their destruction causes immense suffering among the various species on Tyria. The Elder Dragons may not see it this way, but they would be wrong. Regardless of biased perceptions, the suffering is still there.

This is the same reason why we don’t adapt to the line of thinking of mad people in real life. Some perceptions of reality can be proven to be wrong, and some can be proven to be correct. We all have our own opinions on morality, but reality doesn’t suddenly change. A hedgehog isn’t suddenly a red sphere, just because someone sees it that way. If he touches it, it still stings him in the fingers (or gives him flees, because hedgehogs are riddle with those).

We can have common understanding, and by extension, common morals, when we assume we perceive the reality in the same or similar manner, as normally is the case. We each form out our morals, and consider each other normal when our morals match close enough. It doesn’t mean that we should conform to the perceptions of those whose perception differs from ours, it means accepting the possibility of being in the wrong. And by perception, I don’t mean just sight. If someone sees a blue sphere, and on touch feels a hedgehog, he perceives something that looks like a blue sphere but feels like a hedgehog. He can’t know for sure which one of his senses is faulty.

By the way, this was the definition of murder from the Book of Vile Darkness. For people who don’t want to scroll back and look for it:

Murder

“Killing is one of the most horrible acts that a creature can commit. Murder is the killing of an intelligent creature for a nefarious purpose: theft, personal gain, perverse pleasure, or the like. The heroes who go into the green dragon’s woodland lair to slay it are not murderers. In a fantasy world based on an objective definition of evil, killing an evil creature to stop it from doing further harm is not an evil act. Even killing an evil creature for personal gain is not exactly evil (although it’s not a good act), because it still stops the creature’s predations on the innocent. Such a justification, however, works only for the slaying of creatures of consummate, irredeemable evil, (snip). Evil beings delight in murder. It is the ultimate expression of their power and their willingness to commit any sort of heinous act. It shows that they are either powerful enough or detached enough to do anything they wish. To particularly evil creatures, especially those with very alien outlooks, murder is itself a desirable goal. Some such creatures hate life and despise all that lives. They relish either death or undeath and thus seek to quench life wherever possible. Such creatures are usually (but not always) undead themselves.”

If the reason for taking a life is not nefarious, then it doesn’t have to be murder. But in the case of the Elder Dragons, the reason clearly IS nefarious. They want to dominate the land, and not share it with us. They care not for our lives, and want to destroy and corrupt everything. That makes it murder under the above definition, and that makes it evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Killing evil creatures to stop their evil deeds is not an evil act in itself. I refer to you back to the definition of murder a few pages back, as given in the Book of Vile Darkness. Heroes killing an evil creature is not genocide.

And that is justifying killing with perceived evil. Without exception, human perceptions are influenced by a multitude of factors, and there exists no such a quality in beings as “evil”. “Evil” is just a perceived stigma usually resulting from interpreting actions from a viewpoint from where they appear harmful for no good cause.

Tuomir.1830:

And that is justifying killing with perceived evil. Without exception, human perceptions are influenced by a multitude of factors, and there exists no such a quality in beings as “evil”. “Evil” is just a perceived stigma usually resulting from interpreting actions from a viewpoint from where they appear harmful for no good cause.

In real life you would be right, but in Tyria you would be wrong. Pure evil DOES exist in Tyria. Like for example the Krait are pure evil.

Source:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadows_in_the_Water_%E2%80%93_The_Krait

The krait were featured in the original Guild Wars game, and we very much wanted to continue their story in Guild Wars 2. We knew so little about their culture and society; as we were expanding the game into new underwater regions, it was exciting to add new depth (pun intended) to an existing race.

The krait have always been an unapologetically evil race. While we take pains in many instances to provide two sides to any story and to show that even evil races, cultures, and characters have good reasons for their actions, the krait were designed to be straightforwardly “black hat.” We approached their focus on religion very cautiously, knowing that the word “prophets” would bring to mind modern religious references. It is important to note that we in no way want to compare krait fanaticism to any real-world faith. The prophets of the krait are false religious figures invented by a ruling priest caste to maintain their control. No part of the krait culture or religion is based on, or intended to resemble, any real-world parallel.

Also, some acts can objectively be considered to always be wrong acts. In the case of the Elder Dragons, we see them actively perform various heinous acts upon the races of Tyria. And this applies to real life as well. A cruel dictator committing genocide is always committing a wrong act, since there is no good way to commit genocide. Stopping someone from committing genocide is there for not an evil act, even if it involves killing said dictator.

And while you may be right that the concepts of “good” and “evil” have a religious connection that supposes moral absolutes, which can not be supported. The concepts definitely apply to Tyria, and regardless there are some acts that are always bad. We can label such acts as evil, if that is the label we choose. We can also call them crimes, or wrong-acts, if we want to avoid the religious connections.

we are not there food supply but we are sitting on the biggest part of it and by killing us they gain acces to that.

the dragons dont kill for being wicked, vile or anything like that(atleast from what i see)they kill for eighter food or self defense, given that the self defense is used before we attack but knowing we will attack, its still a action taken from knowging we are going to attack them.

just because you douth there is any living creatures that will choose death over life does not mean there is none

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Mist.6217:

The bold part goes against your stance on the Elder Dragons. If there is NO excuse for genocide why are you willing to commit it by killing off all the Elder Dragons?

Killing evil creatures to stop their evil deeds is not an evil act in itself. I refer to you back to the definition of murder a few pages back, as given in the Book of Vile Darkness. Heroes killing an evil creature is not genocide.

Wiping out a species is genocide regardless of it they are good or bad, the definition doesn’t change because they are perceived to be the “bad guy”.

Mist.6217:

Murder is also subjective like was said earlier if person A kills person B without a known reason it is an evil act but if the reason was self defense or defense of a family member or child is it still an evil act?

No. Again, please read the definition of murder from a few pages back.

It is only “murder” if the person committing didn’t start out as the person being attacked. Hypothetical example- You attack me with a knife. I pull a gun and shot you. I did NOT murder you since I was defending myself. Now if you came at me with bare hands and pull my gun then shot you rather than deescalating the situation by having you leave then I did indeed “murder” you. (you and I were just examples I wish no harm on anyone.

Mist.6217:

I’ll use your example of a woman killing her abusive husband after years of abuse. Would the family of the husband not feel that what she did was evil?

I already said that it was an evil act. Murder is murder.

Technically you called the act from your example a “wrongful act” not an “evil act”. You called it “wrongful” because those outside the issue could “understand her reasoning.”

Mist.6217:

If a tribe willingly sacrifices a member every six months and everyone agrees that this practice needs to happen is the act evil? It is not to those within the tribe but it would be to anyone outside the tribe. Now which opinion is more important to the members of the tribe?

If a person willingly sacrifices his own life, that is his choice. If someone is being killed against his/her will, it’s murder.

It’s technically only “murder” if person A fully intended to end person B’s life. An accidental death or a death in the process of defending one’s self is not murder.

My answers are all in italic.

Mist.6217:

Wiping out a species is genocide regardless of it they are good or bad, the definition doesn’t change because they are perceived to be the “bad guy”.

The definition doesn’t make mention of exterminating an entire species, only “killing evil creatures” in general. So the definition is correct in that sense.

Mist.6217:

It is only “murder” if the person committing didn’t start out as the person being attacked. Hypothetical example- You attack me with a knife. I pull a gun and shot you. I did NOT murder you since I was defending myself. Now if you came at me with bare hands and pull my gun then shot you rather than deescalating the situation by having you leave then I did indeed “murder” you. (you and I were just examples I wish no harm on anyone.

Yes, and there you are touching on the gray area. But I think we can all agree that in the case of the Elder Dragons their acts are not anywhere near the gray area. The definition of murder given by the book is one in which you positively 100% know that an evil act is being committed. It doesn’t cover all variations of murder, just the one applying to evil acts specifically.

Mist.6217:

Technically you called the act from your example a “wrongful act” not an “evil act”. You called it “wrongful” because those outside the issue could “understand her reasoning.”

Well it would still be an evil act. The problem here is however, that the person committing the crime might be in a different state of mind than the average evil killer. So I used softer words, since the person in question might not be acting entirely within reason. That is why such conditions matter in a court of law. It can be considered a form of mental instability, caused by the abuse itself. Of course in the case of the Elder Dragons, they know exactly what they are doing.

Mist.6217:

It’s technically only “murder” if person A fully intended to end person B’s life. An accidental death or a death in the process of defending one’s self is not murder.

Of course, but I think I already covered that. We’re not talking self defense, man slaughter or killing here. Only murder.

Korsbaek.9803:

we are not there food supply but we are sitting on the biggest part of it and by killing us they gain acces to that.

Are we? Explain please.

Korsbaek.9803:

the dragons dont kill for being wicked, vile or anything like that(atleast from what i see)they kill for eighter food or self defense, given that the self defense is used before we attack but knowing we will attack, its still a action taken from knowging we are going to attack them.

I think you’ll have a hard time defending that statement in the case of Primordus.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

And that is justifying killing with perceived evil. Without exception, human perceptions are influenced by a multitude of factors, and there exists no such a quality in beings as “evil”. “Evil” is just a perceived stigma usually resulting from interpreting actions from a viewpoint from where they appear harmful for no good cause.

In real life you would be right, but in Tyria you would be wrong. Pure evil DOES exist in Tyria. Like for example the Krait are pure evil.

Source:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadows_in_the_Water_%E2%80%93_The_Krait

The krait were featured in the original Guild Wars game, and we very much wanted to continue their story in Guild Wars 2. We knew so little about their culture and society; as we were expanding the game into new underwater regions, it was exciting to add new depth (pun intended) to an existing race.

The krait have always been an unapologetically evil race. While we take pains in many instances to provide two sides to any story and to show that even evil races, cultures, and characters have good reasons for their actions, the krait were designed to be straightforwardly “black hat.” We approached their focus on religion very cautiously, knowing that the word “prophets” would bring to mind modern religious references. It is important to note that we in no way want to compare krait fanaticism to any real-world faith. The prophets of the krait are false religious figures invented by a ruling priest caste to maintain their control. No part of the krait culture or religion is based on, or intended to resemble, any real-world parallel.

Also, some acts can objectively be considered to always be wrong acts. In the case of the Elder Dragons, we see them actively perform various heinous acts upon the races of Tyria. And this applies to real life as well. A cruel dictator committing genocide is always committing a wrong act, since there is no good way to commit genocide. Stopping someone from committing genocide is there for not an evil act, even if it involves killing said dictator.

And while you may be right that the concepts of “good” and “evil” have a religious connection that supposes moral absolutes, which can not be supported. The concepts definitely apply to Tyria, and regardless there are some acts that are always bad. We can label such acts as evil, if that is the label we choose. We can also call them crimes, or wrong-acts, if we want to avoid the religious connections.

You need to separate viewpoint from reality, or from the ingame reality as the case may be. Krait likely don’t consider themselves evil, so to them, they are not evil. From the perspective of a player with a common set of morale, they are evil. From the perspective of most ingame characters, they are evil. But, “evil” is but a perception, no matter how accurate it might be, so it just depends on the observer. There is no objective evil, not even in games.