Guild Wars 2

Malafide- One last one from me, got to say over all interesting conversation throughout the thread from you and others.

Technically we don’t know why the Elder Dragons are doing what they are doing other than they doing what they doing other than their “need” to consume magical items to feed. Like Korsbaek said if they are preemptively attacking us because they know we would attack them are they really committing murder? At that point it is all a matter of perspective because to them we the bad and they are defending themselves while to us they are bad and we are the ones defending.

Again very interesting points of view in this thread, thanks for sharing.

mad all i have been trying to teach you is that all that mathers is the point of view nothing but you dont seem to understand that, as you or anyone for that mather has the right to say there point of view is true and only thers is true.

Mist.6217:

Malafide- One last one from me, got to say over all interesting conversation throughout the thread from you and others.

Technically we don’t know why the Elder Dragons are doing what they are doing other than they doing what they doing other than their “need” to consume magical items to feed. Like Korsbaek said if they are preemptively attacking us because they know we would attack them are they really committing murder? At that point it is all a matter of perspective because to them we the bad and they are defending themselves while to us they are bad and we are the ones defending.

Again very interesting points of view in this thread, thanks for sharing.

Thanks for contributing as well, I find it a very thought provoking discussion. And regarding the above, I think we can take this back to the Minority Report example. If the Elder Dragons expect us to attack them, but we haven’t actually attacked them yet, then preemptively attacking us is an evil act. It is wrong to commit murder, just because you think others might try to stop you from taking their lands.

They are basically preemptively murdering us, for another evil act that they are planning to commit.

Korsbaek.9803:

mad all i have been trying to teach you is that all that mathers is the point of view nothing but you dont seem to understand that, as you or anyone for that mather has the right to say there point of view is true and only thers is true.

I understand it, but I think that idea is fundamentally wrong. It is the soul reason why dozens of people on our own planet think they have the right to commit atrocities. The sooner we all get away from this false idea that “all moral perceptions are equally valid” the better.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I understand it, but I think that idea is fundamentally wrong. It is the soul reason why dozens of people on our own planet think they have the right to commit atrocities. The sooner we all get away from this false idea that “all moral perceptions are equally valid” the better.

I don’t know if this is partially directed at me, but if it is, you’ve misunderstood me. Moral perceptions are personal, but ethics are shared by groups of people, and by those ethics are set rules and laws. If we ask if something is morally wrong, we need an observer to see the situation through, and attempt to use the morals of the observer. The primary observer is always the person thinking, but one can employ auxiliary observers through assuming the viewpoint of someone else. If we ask about ethics, we’ll have to look through the ethics that apply to the the one observed, not our own. Killing and especially murder is of course against the ethics of every normal human society, but may not be against the morals of some individuals.

if all moral percetions is not equal then whos right?

they are not assuming we will attack them they know given that the knowlege of anyone zhiatn corrups gives hes knowlege to zhiatan so he knows and the first chase cold have been a scout to see what it where that then attacked a mindless mionion risen for garthing food

that will make us the agressor and us the evil once plus you need to remember the last thing that happened before zhiatan whent to bed where he got hunted by the last races;)

Korsbaek.9803:

that will make us the agressor and us the evil once plus you need to remember the last thing that happened before zhiatan whent to bed where he got hunted by the last races;)

The last races were not human, nor Asura, or any of the other races that exist today. Primordus prepared his army to wage war on a species he had never even met. That most definately makes the Elder Dragons the aggressors. The same can be said for Kralkatorrik and Jormag.

Tuomir.1830:

You need to separate viewpoint from reality, or from the ingame reality as the case may be. Krait likely don’t consider themselves evil, so to them, they are not evil. From the perspective of a player with a common set of morale, they are evil. From the perspective of most ingame characters, they are evil. But, “evil” is but a perception, no matter how accurate it might be, so it just depends on the observer. There is no objective evil, not even in games.

No you are factually wrong. The writers have stated explicitly that the krait are objectively evil. That is how they are written. They don’t consider themselves evil, but they ARE evil. That is their purpose in the story of GW2.

Tuomir.1830:

I don’t know if this is partially directed at me, but if it is, you’ve misunderstood me.

No, it was aimed at the person I was quoting. I think I mostly agree with what you stated on ethics though.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No you are factually wrong. The writers have stated explicitly that the krait are objectively evil. That is how they are written. They don’t consider themselves evil, but they ARE evil. That is their purpose in the story of GW2.

Correction, they were written to be perceived to be evil throughly, their actions to be identified as evil. It really makes no practical difference, but since evil is a perception, a being can’t be inherently evil, only perceived as such. In this case, quite reasonably so.

Tuomir.1830:

Correction, they were written to be perceived to be evil throughly, their actions to be identified as evil. It really makes no practical difference, but since evil is a perception, a being can’t be inherently evil, only perceived as such. In this case, quite reasonably so.

“The krait have always been an unapologetically evil race. While we take pains in many instances to provide two sides to any story and to show that even evil races, cultures, and characters have good reasons for their actions, the krait were designed to be straightforwardly “black hat.”

They are quite clear on this. They are an evil race. In a fantasy setting, a race of creatures can be pure evil. Like demons for example. All demons are undeniably evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

Correction, they were written to be perceived to be evil throughly, their actions to be identified as evil. It really makes no practical difference, but since evil is a perception, a being can’t be inherently evil, only perceived as such. In this case, quite reasonably so.

“The krait have always been an unapologetically evil race. While we take pains in many instances to provide two sides to any story and to show that even evil races, cultures, and characters have good reasons for their actions, the krait were designed to be straightforwardly “black hat.”

They are quite clear on this. They are an evil race. In a fantasy setting, a race of creatures can be pure evil. Like demons for example. All demons are undeniably evil.

Enh, i can think of a handful of examples of non-evil demons. of course those are the exception of their respective demonic races and not the rule.

If you look hard enough in various works of fiction, you can of course always find exceptions. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer had some vampires that weren’t evil. But in general, they are. Same can be said about demons.

GW2’s writers have made it very clear that some races in Tyria are, as they put it, apologetically evil. The Krait have literally no redeeming qualities. They enslave and kill and hate everything that isn’t them. They are as evil as you can possibly get.

The Elder Dragons are in their behavior no better than the Krait…. in fact, they are worse.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So, the ball is in your court now. Give me some examples of good things the Elder Dragons have done so far.

Good acts of an Elder Dragon? Jormag had given strength and power to those who asked him for it – those who come from a society where lack of strength means death (a hunter individualistic society). Those who murder are in fact the Sons of Svanir, which Jormag cannot control their view on him or what to do; no more than I can control your views or those who call me the “god of lore” or “lord of lore” or whatever (annoying titles they are -_-).

Zhaitan rose an entire nation that was sunken by dark magic and gave the citizens who los their lives because of Abaddon a second chance, giving them unlife eternal.

Outright, their actions of “corruption” are not outright evil. What makes their actions evil is what their minions do after being “corrupted” (side note: the use of the word “corrupted” is solely determined by the races of Tyria – they view the dragon’s influence as corruption, when all it is truly doing is transforming). However, we don’t know how much control the Elder Dragons hold over their minions – as shown by the game and novels, in fact, they don’t hold much control at all. The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan seemingly goes against Zhaitan’s orders by letting the PC and Trahearne pass four champions (I’m sure that would have wtfpwned them). Captain Whiting focuses upon Cobiah and the Maw slaughters risen and living alike. As shown by Sea of Sorrows, there is a lot of the old personality kept even in the more minor minions, but their champions who keep a lot more of their old personality are capable of going against what one would think the Elder Dragon would want.

So when the minions can easily counter-act the master’s orders, who can you truly blame for the acts of evil we see from the Elder Dragons? I doubt that you could call Zhaitan evil for the tidal wave that happened when he woke up, given that it was a mere side-effect of him waking – just as the Shiverpeaks shattering was of Jormag’s awakening.

So the question I ask you is this:

Are the ones who’re evil the Elder Dragons, or the fanatical minions that they don’t fully control who do the actions?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So you’re saying that if I can animate zombies in real life, that I’m not doing an evil act?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Raising the dead would be in any real world context an evil act. But in the setting of Tyria it is a gray area. It is not explicitly okay, and this is pointed out in GW2 several times, but it is not entirely evil either.

I would say that raising the dead as undead can be both good or evil – all depending on the context – or even an amoral act.

If you’re raising mindless zombies who go on killing sprees. That’s evil. If you’re raising an undead army to invade the world. That’s evil. If a friend or lover of yours was killed and you’re raising the person to give him/her a second chance at life. That’s not evil – they may not want it, but you’re trying to do good and you’re intentions are good. If you’re raising an undead with the intent to study how it works so that you can further it – that in of itself is neither good nor evil, it depends on why you want to further it and even that may end up being neither good nor evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would not call that slavery. We do have rules, and prisoners have rights.

Some slaves had rights too. They were called indentured servants. People would still consider that evil. Yet prisons are A-O-K!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No you are incorrect. You are deliberately using the vague term “lesser beings”.

Right, I was deliberately vague. That was my entire point behind the question:

Without context, you cannot call someone good, nor can you call them evil, nor can you call them amoral.

“Murder” versus “killing” “slavery” versus “indentured servitude” or what have you. Minor word choices to separate an act without context from an act with context.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Heroes going off to kill an evil dragon are not evil for the act of stopping that beast from causing more misery. In this case we can clearly tell that the dragons are up to no good, and are a threat to the races around them.

You utterly missed my point. What if they view us as evil? Would they still be evil if they’re under the belief that they’re the just that are fighting evil? That would make them no different than the races of Tyria, who are “killing to end an evil threat”

Both sides cannot be just while both sides are evil. But it is possible that both sides are evil or even that both sides are just.

What if the Elder Dragons are not evil? They may do acts that we see as evil, but we’re not seeing the context. Similarly, to them, we are doing acts that seem evil. If they view us as evil, that doesn’t make them outright wrong. We just view ourselves as good and would disagree with them.

To sum up my entire argument:

Point One: You are presuming context where none is presented and using this presumption to label the Elder Dragons as evil when we cannot properly do so. Using your krait analogy – while the Elder Dragons’ actions may seem worse to us, we know the context behind the krait. They’re brainwashed by their manipulative theocratic leadership to believe that they are the omega race and should dominate all other races (in a way, it is not “the krait are evil” but rather “the krait are manipulated to doing evil by their evil leadership”).

Point Two: Evil by definition is subjective and no one will ever consider themselves evil except for archetypal children fantasy villains. By effect, to the Elder Dragons the races of Tyria are the evil ones. Again to use the krait, they would view us as evil for not upholding to our proper place in the food chain – for trying to defy fate so to speak – but wouldn’t view themselves as evil.

To sound in on this, I don’t see the dragons as any more evil than rival servers in WvW. Granted, there are some big, wet, sloppy bags of kitten that use wvw to justify harrassing other players but it’s basically kill or be killed and both sides understand that.

You may say that the dragons are committing genocide but I could argue that humans irl are doing the same thing. Every time a tree is cut down, we are killing a living creature. Every time we consume chicken, steak, beef, pork or fish, we are eating one of millions that was raised and slaughtered for the sole purpose of feeding us.

Here’s another case to wrap your head around; smallpox. It is virtually extinct, by the hand of humans, with only a small sample in cryogenic stasis, which is used for study. It was a simple organism that was feeding and reproducing, just like we are, but we killed it because it it uses us for food. Considering that 3 million could fit in the punctuation ending this sentence, can you even imagine how many were slain for our peace of mind? Even worse, the elimination of smallpox was celebrated.

But I can still go one step further and this one is controversial. Bin Laden’s death was celebrated. People literally danced in the streets when we received confirmation that a man has been slain. Yes, he did horrible things but I, personally, am just as horrified that others can celebrate his death. But even then I asked myself how I felt and “relieved” was the answer, which made me question my own morality. Am I evil too because I’m glad a man is dead? He had his opinion and we have ours. I can’t even say he’s purely the villain because it’s very hard to believe he would pick on a superpower and really believe he would emerge victorious. It makes more sense to think he may have been provoked and brazenly upped the ante until the escalating “global gang war” came to his demise.

To bring this full circle, I don’t see the dragons as good or evil. I see them as threats which must be neutralized and how we do that shows our morality. If I was in control of the lore, I would have the Pact send representatives to the next dragon and see if we can work out a truce. Saber-rattling the fact that Zhaitan lost (I personally don’t think he’s dead) while trying to extend a loving hand and a kindred heart just might be enough to get them in the negotiating mood. It would be quite the twist if we help an elder dragon go on a diet. It would be even better to have one on our side when we eventually have to go up against another. An even more interesting twist would be a new profession coming out of it: being a dragon minion!

Crossplay.2067:

You may say that the dragons are committing genocide but I could argue that humans irl are doing the same thing. Every time a tree is cut down, we are killing a living creature. Every time we consume chicken, steak, beef, pork or fish, we are eating one of millions that was raised and slaughtered for the sole purpose of feeding us.

You need to look up what the word genocide means before you use it.

Crossplay.2067:

Here’s another case to wrap your head around; smallpox. It is virtually extinct, by the hand of humans, with only a small sample in cryogenic stasis, which is used for study. It was a simple organism that was feeding and reproducing, just like we are, but we killed it because it it uses us for food. Considering that 3 million could fit in the punctuation ending this sentence, can you even imagine how many were slain for our peace of mind? Even worse, the elimination of smallpox was celebrated.

Again, look up what genocide means. Destroying a virus is not an evil act. And it is not genocide.

Crossplay.2067:

But I can still go one step further and this one is controversial. Bin Laden’s death was celebrated. People literally danced in the streets when we received confirmation that a man has been slain. Yes, he did horrible things but I, personally, am just as horrified that others can celebrate his death. But even then I asked myself how I felt and “relieved” was the answer, which made me question my own morality. Am I evil too because I’m glad a man is dead? He had his opinion and we have ours. I can’t even say he’s purely the villain because it’s very hard to believe he would pick on a superpower and really believe he would emerge victorious. It makes more sense to think he may have been provoked and brazenly upped the ante until the escalating “global gang war” came to his demise.

I’m not touching that with a ten-foot pole.

I would like to go into Konig’s points tomorrow. But it will have to wait. Mad Queens need sleep too.

genocide means killing off something in a systematic order because of what it is

so systematic killing off smallpox because its smallpox is genocide;)

i would argue that raising and killing off anials is not genocide but slavery and forced reproduction with the purpes of murdering them.

and no race sees it self as evil but most likely sees the other side as evil and there for acts on that to defend itself from evil

Humans (and other similar sentient beings) do acts, that can be perceived as bad, to lesser creatures (chickens, cows, fish, plants, insects, and etc.) to survive. That is ok morally, because we are doing that to survive. We also have centuries of thoughts and actions of our ancestors telling us its ok, because they did it as well. Almost like a generational peer pressure.

When a larger race of creatures/beings does the same to us, it is perceived as bad, because it does not fit into our code of ethics and morals. It doesn’t learn nor care about our codes of conduct or ethic. Why should it? We are simply a resource for it to exploit. Isn’t that how humans treat their own living resources as well?

Korsbaek.9803:

genocide means killing off something in a systematic order because of what it is

so systematic killing off smallpox because its smallpox is genocide;)

No. Look up the definition of genocide. I told you, look it up.

gen·o·cide
“erate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.”

Eliminating of a virus is not genocide by any definition of the word.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Good acts of an Elder Dragon? Jormag had given strength and power to those who asked him for it – those who come from a society where lack of strength means death (a hunter individualistic society). Those who murder are in fact the Sons of Svanir, which Jormag cannot control their view on him or what to do; no more than I can control your views or those who call me the “god of lore” or “lord of lore” or whatever (annoying titles they are -_-).

This gift of his, is also a form of corruption. Svanir for example was corrupted, as are the icebrood. They are good people turned into monsters. It is most definitely not a good act, and it is entirely in Jormag’s favor. He creates minions for his army.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan rose an entire nation that was sunken by dark magic and gave the citizens who los their lives because of Abaddon a second chance, giving them unlife eternal.

Bringing back a whole continent from the depths in order to rule it yourself with your army of undead minions, is not a good act. Likewise, there are hints that some Risen are corrupted in body and soul (as was pointed out some pages earlier). Those are evil deeds.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Outright, their actions of “corruption” are not outright evil.

Yes they are. Turning good creatures into evil creatures, is an evil and unnatural act.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What makes their actions evil is what their minions do after being “corrupted” (side note: the use of the word “corrupted” is solely determined by the races of Tyria – they view the dragon’s influence as corruption, when all it is truly doing is transforming).

I’ll give you that one. That is a good argument.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So when the minions can easily counter-act the master’s orders, who can you truly blame for the acts of evil we see from the Elder Dragons?

Yes you can. This is the same reason we can blame cruel dictators for the atrocities that their soldiers commit, even if it wasn’t on their explicit orders. The Elder Dragons make no effort to stop their minions from doing evil acts either, which is in itself an evil mindset.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I doubt that you could call Zhaitan evil for the tidal wave that happened when he woke up, given that it was a mere side-effect of him waking – just as the Shiverpeaks shattering was of Jormag’s awakening.

That is true. This does not hold true for Primordus however.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Are the ones who’re evil the Elder Dragons, or the fanatical minions that they don’t fully control who do the actions?

Both. The cruel dictator that rules them, and the servants that commit atrocities under his rule, are both guilty of evil.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I would say that raising the dead as undead can be both good or evil – all depending on the context – or even an amoral act.

I suppose so. It depends also on if the creature you bring to (un)life are themselves evil creatures.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If a friend or lover of yours was killed and you’re raising the person to give him/her a second chance at life. That’s not evil – they may not want it, but you’re trying to do good and you’re intentions are good.

Regardless of your intentions, if the person does not want to be brought back, it is still an evil act. But I’ll admit that there are gray areas here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Some slaves had rights too. They were called indentured servants. People would still consider that evil. Yet prisons are A-O-K!

That is a difficult subject. But keep in mind that prisoners end up in prison due to breaking the laws that society has agreed upon. It is often a choice they make, and the punishment that follows from it. Slaves on the other hand never had any choice to begin with. Their freedom was taken from them, not for crimes they committed, but because others felt they had the right to take that freedom from them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Without context, you cannot call someone good, nor can you call them evil, nor can you call them amoral.

In some cases context matters, and in some cases it doesn’t. You can judge people by the good and the evil actions that they do. Genocide is never a good thing for example.

there i stand corrected but then the systematic killing of any animal will fall under the catagory you just gave and the killing of cattle is not evil but still genocide makeing genocide a neutral thing remember that.

and you can not say that context only mathers half the time it eighter mathers all the time or not at all

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ou utterly missed my point. What if they view us as evil? Would they still be evil if they’re under the belief that they’re the just that are fighting evil? That would make them no different than the races of Tyria, who are “killing to end an evil threat”

No that isn’t true. Primordus for example, prepared for war before even waking up. Which shows that he did not care if we are good or evil. The writers have even stated this literally, they just don’t care about us. And we can still judge them for the countless other evil acts that they commit, such as killing innocent women and children, and genocide. We are not the ones committing genocide here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What if the Elder Dragons are not evil? They may do acts that we see as evil, but we’re not seeing the context. Similarly, to them, we are doing acts that seem evil. If they view us as evil, that doesn’t make them outright wrong. We just view ourselves as good and would disagree with them.

Some acts are outright evil, regardless of context.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Point One: You are presuming context where none is presented and using this presumption to label the Elder Dragons as evil when we cannot properly do so.

My counter point to this is that we have plenty of context already, through their outright evil actions. I think we have more than enough reasons to label them as evil.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Point Two: Evil by definition is subjective and no one will ever consider themselves evil except for archetypal children fantasy villains. By effect, to the Elder Dragons the races of Tyria are the evil ones.

No, you would have to first come with evidence for this statement. Because all evidence points to them not caring if we are good or evil. You can’t just throw out a claim like that without backing it up.

Korsbaek.9803:

there i stand corrected but then the systematic killing of any animal will fall under the catagory you just gave and the killing of cattle is not evil but still genocide makeing genocide a neutral thing remember that.

AAAAARGHHH! Read the description of genocide! The systematic killing of cattle or other animals is NOT genocide. READ IT! R-E-A-D I-T

“the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. "

Cattle and animals and viruses are not a national, or a racial, or a political, or a cultural group. End of story. And don’t you dare ever call genocide a neutral act. You should be ashamed for that statement, and you should feel bad. Because you clearly do not understand the weight that the word “genocide” carries with it.

we are systematic killing diffrent races of farm animals and by the defernation your giving we are makeing genocide on them no mather if you say we dont as you are systematic killing thos races makeing it genocide;)
it is true that viruses are not a race but the rest of them are no mather if you want it or not makeing our systematic killing of farm animals a genocidek from a racial perspectiv;)

i totaly know what it means and thats why i can call it neutral given that i see our race as nothing more then animals and thats all we are we are from the race of homos and the subspieces kitten sapiens, we are then killing in systematic order other diffrent races makeing it genocide.

name a act thats evil regardless of context.

if we cant claim that we are evil in the dragons eyes how can you claim that the dragons are evil when you clearly state that killing evil is not a evil act?

Korsbaek.9803:

we are systematic killing diffrent races of farm animals and by the defernation your giving we are makeing genocide on them no mather if you say we dont as you are systematic killing thos races makeing it genocide;)
it is true that viruses are not a race but the rest of them are no mather if you want it or not makeing our systematic killing of farm animals a genocidek from a racial perspectiv;)

i totaly know what it means

You totally don’t know what it means, and you haven’t looked it up! And it makes you look extremely ignorant. Especially considering the severity of the kind of evil we are talking about here, that has a very real historical context.

“Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, Caste, religious, or national group”, though what constitutes enough of a “part” to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

And also:

“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups”

Korsbaek.9803:

name a act thats evil regardless of context.

I already did. Genocide is absolutely evil regardless of any context. But you just don’t understand what the word means. But after posting such an elaborate quotation of what “it is”, even you have no further excuse not to understand it.

Korsbaek.9803:

if we cant claim that we are evil in the dragons eyes how can you claim that the dragons are evil when you clearly state that killing evil is not a evil act?

Circular argument. Fighting evil for the purpose of stopping said evil is a good act. There is no reason to assume the Elder Dragons see us as evil, because they have made no such mention regarding us. In fact, going by the things that Zhaitan’s minions say, Zhaitan simply wants to rule all.

But saying that the Elder Dragons themselves are evil, can easily be justified by the evil acts they commit. Someone who commits several evil acts, and no good acts, is an evil being. It really is that simple.

I believe this discussion is pointless.

People simply refuse to accept anything other than their own opinions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Korsbaek.9803:

genocide means killing off something in a systematic order because of what it is

so systematic killing off smallpox because its smallpox is genocide;)

No. Look up the definition of genocide. I told you, look it up.

gen·o·cide
“erate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.”

Eliminating of a virus is not genocide by any definition of the word.

Check and mate. That definition of genocide only applies to targeted elimination of a certain group. The elder dragons aren’t targeting any national, racial, political, or cultural group specifically, nor is systemically exterminating them. Ergo, The elder dragons are not committing genocide. On the other hand, pact starting systematic eradication of elder dragons would fit the word better, even if it for the purpose of defending against a threat that would destroy all life on Tyria.

Back to the krait. You are saying krait are evil? Then tell me, how can something be anything, when it doesn’t exist? In reality, there are no krait, so what we have of them is the perception of them from the writers who came up with them. If they are written as evil, that’s because with their imagination, the writers perceived them as such.

Tuomir.1830:

Check and mate. That definition of genocide only applies to targeted elimination of a certain group. The elder dragons aren’t targeting any national, racial, political, or cultural group specifically, nor is systemically exterminating them.

Incorrect. The Norn for example were violently driven from their lands, and turned into Icebrood, or outright killed. Genocide does not have to mean the entire destruction of a race. And even if you don’t want to call it genocide, it would still be murder. And murder is still an evil act.

Further more, several of the Elder Dragons, such as Primordus, want to destroy everything. All life. That is mass genocide.

Tuomir.1830:

Ergo, The elder dragons are not committing genocide. On the other hand, pact starting systematic eradication of elder dragons would fit the word better, even if it for the purpose of defending against a threat that would destroy all life on Tyria.

No. We have no indication that the Elder Dragons are a race. What we are doing, is simply waging war on those that attacked us. Keep this in mind, the Elder Dragons attacked us first.

Tuomir.1830:

Back to the krait. You are saying krait are evil? Then tell me, how can something be anything, when it doesn’t exist? In reality, there are no krait, so what we have of them is the perception of them from the writers who came up with them. If they are written as evil, that’s because with their imagination, the writers perceived them as such.

You are missing the point. The point is, that the writers have decided that the setting of Guild Wars does contain creatures that are irredeemably evil. They are not black and white, and it’s not a matter of perspective. The writers have outright stated that some beings, such as the Krait, are just evil. Black hat, pure and simple. It’s a plot device really.

And since this is a fantasy setting, anyone claiming that it’s all a matter of perspective, since no one is purely evil in real life, is wrong. That point is invalid in this setting. That was my point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

Check and mate. That definition of genocide only applies to targeted elimination of a certain group. The elder dragons aren’t targeting any national, racial, political, or cultural group specifically, nor is systemically exterminating them.

Incorrect. The Norn for example were violently driven from their lands, and turned into Icebrood, or outright killed. Genocide does not have to mean the entire destruction of a race. And even if you don’t want to call it genocide, it would still be murder. And murder is still an evil act.

Further more, several of the Elder Dragons, such as Primordus, want to destroy everything. All life. That is mass genocide.

No. Jormag didn’t force nor kill norn specifically, see Kodan an quaggans. Destroying all life isn’t specific to any one group, either, so genocide is not the word. Murder, homicide, is human killing a human. While in a fantasy setting it also applies to beings comparable to humans, it hardly applies to elder dragons. Just as a human can’t murder a rabbit, an elder dragon cannot murder a human.

Tuomir.1830:

Tuomir.1830:

Ergo, The elder dragons are not committing genocide. On the other hand, pact starting systematic eradication of elder dragons would fit the word better, even if it for the purpose of defending against a threat that would destroy all life on Tyria.

No. We have no indication that the Elder Dragons are a race. What we are doing, is simply waging war on those that attacked us. Keep this in mind, the Elder Dragons attacked us first.

I was simply stating that Pact killing elder dragons is more akin to genocide than elder dragons destroying, converting and conquering lands. The Pact aims to destroy all the elder dragons, does it not?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

Back to the krait. You are saying krait are evil? Then tell me, how can something be anything, when it doesn’t exist? In reality, there are no krait, so what we have of them is the perception of them from the writers who came up with them. If they are written as evil, that’s because with their imagination, the writers perceived them as such.

You are missing the point. The point is, that the writers have decided that the setting of Guild Wars does contain creatures that are irredeemably evil. They are not black and white, and it’s not a matter of perspective. The writers have outright stated that some beings, such as the Krait, are just evil. Black hat, pure and simple. It’s a plot device really.

And since this is a fantasy setting, anyone claiming that it’s all a matter of perspective, since no one is purely evil in real life, is wrong. That point is invalid in this setting. That was my point.

I am not missing the point, I am merely looking at it deeper than you are. Since it’s a fantasy setting, nothing in it exists, save for some concepts taken from reality, so no being or race can truly be anything, only perceived as something, and how something is perceived is fully dependent on who is the observer. For example, I do not believe evil exists, nor have I seen hints that evil exists in Guild Wars world, so I don’t think that krait are inherently evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This gift of his, is also a form of corruption. Svanir for example was corrupted, as are the icebrood. They are good people turned into monsters. It is most definitely not a good act, and it is entirely in Jormag’s favor. He creates minions for his army.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Outright, their actions of “corruption” are not outright evil.

Yes they are. Turning good creatures into evil creatures, is an evil and unnatural act.

All that the “corruption” really is, is taking flesh and blood and turning it into an element (ice, crystal, etc.) and driving in an intense sense of fanaticism. Fanaticism can lead individuals to do both good or evil, but the act of being fanatic itself is not evil – and in turn, the act of corruption does not turn someone from good to evil, but someone from good and independent to unknown and fanatical.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Bringing back a whole continent from the depths in order to rule it yourself with your army of undead minions, is not a good act. Likewise, there are hints that some Risen are corrupted in body and soul (as was pointed out some pages earlier). Those are evil deeds.

I ask you this:

Where is it said that Zhaitan intended to rule Orr if it wasn’t full of nothing but corpses?

Can you tell me, exactly, how is the Elder Dragons’ influence “evil” – what makes them turning another being from one kind of material to another “evil.” I think you’re putting too much stock on the word “corruption” when it really isn’t. It is to the races of Tyria, but from an objective viewpoint? The only “bad thing” one can really consider is the -effectively – indoctrination effect that it has.

And if altering one’s free will is evil, then why does Mass Effect 2 attribute Paragon points to doing such an act to millions of individuals at one time?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes you can. This is the same reason we can blame cruel dictators for the atrocities that their soldiers commit, even if it wasn’t on their explicit orders. The Elder Dragons make no effort to stop their minions from doing evil acts either, which is in itself an evil mindset.

There is two keys of note here:

1) A dictator makes the orders. And when soldiers commit crimes not ordered, unless the superior just doesn’t give a kitten (making him either amoral or evil), said soldier would be punished.

2) This doesn’t show that Elder Dragons evil, it just shows that they may be evil – or they are indifferent to the act. And it is the later that they are presented as.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is true. This does not hold true for Primordus however.

Incidentally enough, I was going to say “the only Elder Dragon I would consider outright evil is Primordus.” But I removed the sentence for post length.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Both. The cruel dictator that rules them, and the servants that commit atrocities under his rule, are both guilty of evil.

So you’re saying that you will be guilty of the acts that employee that you hired committed?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Regardless of your intentions, if the person does not want to be brought back, it is still an evil act. But I’ll admit that there are gray areas here.

Is it an evil act if you didn’t know the person wouldn’t want to be brought back? If you don’t know, I wouldn’t consider it evil – ignorance, despite what some people may believe, is not evil (nor is it bliss).

-more in next post-

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But keep in mind that prisoners end up in prison due to breaking the laws that society has agreed upon.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

You hit the nail on the head here. “that society has agreed upon". THAT is the true basis behind the definition of evil – acts deemed by a society to be “evil.” Laws are created to punish those “evil” acts, and prison is an act of evil to contain evil (the “lesser of two evils”). There is no universal law, and no universal good nor no universal evil.

If you want to be truthful, then there really isn’t a single thing that can be outright undeniably called “evil” – and the same thing for good. There are just things which harm, and things which help. And even then, whom are being harmed or helped differs – an act that helps one person may be harming another and vice versa.

As such, while we may consider the Elder Dragons to be evil, that does not mean that they are evil. Your “Book of Vile Darkness” is a book written by defining the evil of a fictional society – even if you agree with it, that’s all it is in the end. ALl of your views of what evil is, all of my views of what evil is, or Tourmir’s or so forth – none are an absolute truth of what evil is.

The Elder Dragons’ view of evil would end up being radically different than ours. The risen have shown that their view of evil is those who would “poison” the land by removing Zhaitan’s influence – they honestly believe that we are the ones doing harm to the world.

Now ask yourself this: what if they’re right?

Asura experiments pollute like crazy. The charr’s industrial age advancements obviously pollute too. When magic was more direct, humans and other races used it to destroy and scorch the land (Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, scriptures of Dwayna and of Abaddon and even of Melandru).

What if the Elder Dragons are the world’s means of eliminating things harmful to the world. Are they still evil then? If so, that would mean that the world itself is evil.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In some cases context matters, and in some cases it doesn’t. You can judge people by the good and the evil actions that they do. Genocide is never a good thing for example.

I disagree.

Would genocide of the mursaat be an evil act? They are a selfish race that has, on multiple occasions through multiple generatinos, willingly sacrificed thousands and even almost an entire race just for the sake of preservation. There wasn’t a single mursaat with a redeeming value. Is the GW1 PC evil for wiping them out to near extinction?

How about the Elder Dragons – would wiping them out, committing genocide on them – be an evil act? By your argument, the Elder Dragons are all irrevocably evil. Therefore, it would be a good act to commit genocide by killing them and their minions all off.

You cannot have both ways here, Malafide. Tell me, is genocide when the genocide’s victims are all evil still an evil act? You yourself argued “no” before:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Heroes going off to kill an evil dragon are not evil for the act of stopping that beast from causing more misery. In this case we can clearly tell that the dragons are up to no good, and are a threat to the races around them. Killing them is there for a just cause. There is no nefarious reason why we want to kill the Elder Dragons. We fight them to stop them from killing more people.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/The-Dragons-might-not-be-evil/page/3#post2510037

By wiping out all Elder Dragons, we commit genocide. Which you say is evil.

However, by killing the Elder Dragons which you say are outright evil, you are doing good – not evil.

Your argument has become a contradiction.

Tuomir.1830:

No. Jormag didn’t force nor kill norn specifically, see Kodan an quaggans. Destroying all life isn’t specific to any one group, either, so genocide is not the word.

Then it is mass genocide. Genocide is the right word here. Especially considering Primordus who wants to destroy everything. That is the ultimate kind of genocide.

Tuomir.1830:

I was simply stating that Pact killing elder dragons is more akin to genocide than elder dragons destroying, converting and conquering lands. The Pact aims to destroy all the elder dragons, does it not?

In defense, to stop their evil acts. If we then also go after their women and children, then it’s genocide. But simply stopping the Elder Dragons and their armies is not genocide. That’s war.

Tuomir.1830:

I am not missing the point, I am merely looking at it deeper than you are. Since it’s a fantasy setting, nothing in it exists, save for some concepts taken from reality, (snip for post length)

It’s a fantasy setting. If the writers say that evil exists in their world, it exists. Going all philosophical about it is a waste of time. It’s fiction. The writers of said fiction determine if there is such a thing as evil in that setting.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All that the “corruption” really is, is taking flesh and blood and turning it into an element (ice, crystal, etc.) and driving in an intense sense of fanaticism. Fanaticism can lead individuals to do both good or evil, but the act of being fanatic itself is not evil – and in turn, the act of corruption does not turn someone from good to evil, but someone from good and independent to unknown and fanatical.

I disagree, because some of the minions are also corrupted in their very soul. And besides, turning beings into a state of dangerous vile fanaticism is still an evil act. Do we have any indication that these dragons are trying to transform people into loving benevolent creatures? No. They turn them into aggressive soldiers for their armies. That is evil.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I ask you this:

Where is it said that Zhaitan intended to rule Orr if it wasn’t full of nothing but corpses?

I’m not sure if I understand the question entirely, can you rephrase it?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Can you tell me, exactly, how is the Elder Dragons’ influence “evil” – what makes them turning another being from one kind of material to another “evil.”

Normal people are turned into violent monsters. I think that is pretty obvious.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only “bad thing” one can really consider is the -effectively – indoctrination effect that it has.

Indoctrination is also an evil act. It is a form of mental corruption.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And if altering one’s free will is evil, then why does Mass Effect 2 attribute Paragon points to doing such an act to millions of individuals at one time?

I didn’t say altering someone’s ideas is evil. We do that all the time on this very forum, through discussion. But persuasion and indoctrination are two very different things.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There is two keys of note here:

1) A dictator makes the orders. And when soldiers commit crimes not ordered, unless the superior just doesn’t give a kitten (making him either amoral or evil), said soldier would be punished.

2) This doesn’t show that Elder Dragons evil, it just shows that they may be evil – or they are indifferent to the act. And it is the later that they are presented as.

Indifference to the crimes of your own army makes you just as bad. We know that the Elder Dragons do not punish their minions for their crimes. For example, Jormag lets the Sons of Svanir kill Norn women, even if they’ve been turned. We know that now, he doesn’t care.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Incidentally enough, I was going to say “the only Elder Dragon I would consider outright evil is Primordus.” But I removed the sentence for post length.

I agree. Zhaitan’s motives are more vague. And the corruption caused by Kralkatorrik may have been incidental. The Brand and all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So you’re saying that you will be guilty of the acts that employee that you hired committed?

Depends if you know of the acts, and if you make any attempts to stop said acts.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Is it an evil act if you didn’t know the person wouldn’t want to be brought back? If you don’t know, I wouldn’t consider it evil – ignorance, despite what some people may believe, is not evil (nor is it bliss).

It would still be a wrong act, but no I would not call that evil. This is a good point.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You hit the nail on the head here. “that society has agreed upon". THAT is the true basis behind the definition of evil – acts deemed by a society to be “evil.” Laws are created to punish those “evil” acts, and prison is an act of evil to contain evil (the “lesser of two evils”). There is no universal law, and no universal good nor no universal evil.

That is where you are wrong. The laws put forward by society, help stop people from committing acts that are considered harmful to that society. But never the less there are acts that are always wrong, regardless of our laws. Such as genocide. Unless you cherry pick a very specific fantasy scenario, genocide is always en evil act. This is where we go back to objective morality. This is why laws do not dictate morality.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If you want to be truthful, then there really isn’t a single thing that can be outright undeniably called “evil” – and the same thing for good.

Brutally murdering and torturing innocent people is always a wrong act. That invalidates your statement.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Elder Dragons’ view of evil would end up being radically different than ours. The risen have shown that their view of evil is those who would “poison” the land by removing Zhaitan’s influence – they honestly believe that we are the ones doing harm to the world.

Now ask yourself this: what if they’re right?

Now it gets complicated, but this may be one of your best points yet. Good forces killing an evil being, are doing a good act (as the Book of Vile Darkness explained). And an evil creature, may believe that he/she is actually fighting evil, but that does not make it a good act.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Asura experiments pollute like crazy. The charr’s industrial age advancements obviously pollute too. When magic was more direct, humans and other races used it to destroy and scorch the land (Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, scriptures of Dwayna and of Abaddon and even of Melandru).

But those very same races also do good acts. And they act in retaliation to the aggressors, they did not start this war. People are defined by the sum of good and evil that they do. Not just the evil acts. Granted, some evil acts are worse than others.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What if the Elder Dragons are the world’s means of eliminating things harmful to the world. Are they still evil then? If so, that would mean that the world itself is evil.

You would have to prove this first. Because currently nothing points in this direction. And Primordus even indicates that they may just be creatures of pure destruction.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Would genocide of the mursaat be an evil act? They are a selfish race that has, on multiple occasions through multiple generatinos, willingly sacrificed thousands and even almost an entire race just for the sake of preservation. There wasn’t a single mursaat with a redeeming value. Is the GW1 PC evil for wiping them out to near extinction?

Yes. But here we touch upon the borders of fantasy versus reality. In any real life setting, no entire race is completely evil. Thus, even in a war, you need only dispatch of the government and the army, and can leave the people alone. We don’t know if the Mursaat have family. If we were to seek out their home lands, and kill are their progeny, then we are committing genocide. And that’s wrong. Same can be said about the Krait. None of them have any redeemable qualities. And we are right to kill them off where we see them on our coasts. But does this mean we should dive into the deepest depths of the oceans to wipe them all out for good? That would be genocide, and that is evil.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

How about the Elder Dragons – would wiping them out, committing genocide on them – be an evil act? By your argument, the Elder Dragons are all irrevocably evil. Therefore, it would be a good act to commit genocide by killing them and their minions all off.

That is a difficult question. One that would never be possible in any real life setting. If we knew the Elder Dragons to be the last of their kind, then by wiping them out we would be committing a wrong act. However, since the dragons have made it pretty clear they do not want to share this world with us, they may not leave us any choice.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You cannot have both ways here, Malafide. Tell me, is genocide when the genocide’s victims are all evil still an evil act? You yourself argued “no” before:

In a fantasy setting, probably not. But to be honest, if it meant chasing down every single Krait on the planet, that would indeed be evil. Because as the Book of VIle Darkness already stated, heroes are only good for killing evil creatures in order to stop them from doing more harm. But Krait down in the ocean are no immediate threat to us. We would simply be killing them for the sake of hating Krait, and that’s an evil act.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By wiping out all Elder Dragons, we commit genocide. Which you say is evil. However, by killing the Elder Dragons which you say are outright evil, you are doing good – not evil. Your argument has become a contradiction.

Not a contradiction, but a conflict. Stopping the Elder Dragons is a good act, since they commit acts of extreme evil against all the races. But if they are the last of their kind, then killing them all would be genocide, which is an evil act. So it would be both. Stopping them is good, wiping them out is bad. The logical conclusion would be to find a way to stop their evil without wiping them out. That would be the morally right thing to do.

Phew, this is a long discussion. For those people reading this, and thinking we’re just going in circles. We’re really not. I find all of this most interesting. And Konig brings up some really good points. Hopefully this makes some readers reexamine their own morality.

why is stopping the elder dragons a good act?
because they are evil in our eyes, i will bet we are evil in there makeing it a full circle with evil killing evil when looking at it from both perspectives

and because the sons kill all female norns that gets corrupted or turned has nothing to do with jormag, i could begin worship someone and the gift he gives me is something i wont share with females and now all that join this worshipping has to kill all females that trys to join.
the person i worship has no power over me into the day i turn into a moveing iceblock but im still worshipping him before that.

stopping the elder dragons is not a act of good for us its the act of the lesser evils taken from your oppinion given that i can eighter act evil by killing them or i can die and as we dont want to die we kill the elder dragon, its nothing more then a war, its a war for them and a war for us nothing else, they kill because they are at war with the other races of tyria there is nothing that makes them evil by doing that, there can then come arguments for if the war is justified or not and if its a war we should fight but that does not change the fact that we are at war with them and they have been at war with the races of tyria a hell of alot longer then our races history, and from what we can gess from the fact that they rose last time they where awake they must have been here longer then the elder races to unless they made them or they are a natural force made by the world itself

Korsbaek.9803:

why is stopping the elder dragons a good act?
because they are evil in our eyes, i will bet we are evil in there makeing it a full circle with evil killing evil when looking at it from both perspectives

They are objectively evil. As I pointed out, some acts cannot be defended. Primordus for example wanting to destroy everything. That is an outright evil goal.

Korsbaek.9803:

and because the sons kill all female norns that gets corrupted or turned has nothing to do with jormag, i could begin worship someone and the gift he gives me is something i wont share with females and now all that join this worshipping has to kill all females that trys to join.

The problem here is that Jormag knows that his followers kill the norn women, but he doesn’t care. Imagine if I started my own cult, and my cultists started randomly butchering women. And I was like: “Meh, do as you please, I don’t care”. That would make me evil.

Korsbaek.9803:

the person i worship has no power over me into the day i turn into a moveing iceblock but im still worshipping him before that.

If Jormag really is as powerful as he is made out to be, he could easily command the Sons of Svanir to change their ways.

Korsbaek.9803:

stopping the elder dragons is not a act of good for us its the act of the lesser evils taken from your oppinion given that i can eighter act evil by killing them or i can die and as we dont want to die we kill the elder dragon,

You need to start using more punctuation, because it is making your rants almost unreadable. Please start your sentences with a capital letter, and end them in a period. And if the sentence becomes longer than 3 lines, you probably want to end that sentence a bit earlier. Thank you.

Stopping evil is a good act, even if it involves killing the evil beings. Completely wiping them out as a species however, is not a good act. Granted, we may not have a choice. But making peace is always a better alternative.

Korsbaek.9803:

its nothing more then a war, its a war for them and a war for us nothing else, they kill because they are at war with the other races of tyria

They are not at war with the countless norn children that Jormag drives from their homes. He’s waging war on peaceful settlements. And so is Primordus.

Korsbaek.9803:

and they have been at war with the races of tyria a hell of alot longer then our races history

If you were at war with a race in the past, and that race no longer exists today. But still you decide to continue your war against other races that have not done you any harm… then that is an act of evil. It makes you the aggressor.

im basecly just saying that from there point of view we can be nothing more then invaders, invading there land makeing us evil.
You are setting them as evil by setting us as good from our view point and making our view point the objetive truth for the whole system thats the planet we are on, and thats something you cant do. For all we know we could be the evil onces doing harm to the planet we are on and the dragons thats doing good from the planets view point, that would make the evil onces and the dragons doing good as you clearly stats that killing evil creaturs is a act of good.

Korsbaek.9803:

im basecly just saying that from there point of view we can be nothing more then invaders, invading there land makeing us evil.
You are setting them as evil by setting us as good from our view point and making our view point the objetive truth for the whole system thats the planet we are on, and thats something you cant do. For all we know we could be the evil onces doing harm to the planet we are on and the dragons thats doing good from the planets view point, that would make the evil onces and the dragons doing good as you clearly stats that killing evil creaturs is a act of good.

No, I’m not just saying they are evil, because we are good. I’m saying they are evil because none of them commit any good acts (that we know of), and all of them commit several acts that are objectively evil. Not just from our perspective, but from every rational perspective.

-murdering
-genocide (mass genocide even)
-tempting others/indoctrination
-corruption of body and soul
-driving entire societies away by purposefully spreading fear and cowing innocents
-creating evil creatures
-using others for personal gain
-bringing despair
-allowing minions/servants to commit atrocities

So, basically, Malafide, you are saying the dragons are evil because they do bad things to us, and we are good because we fight them? What a nice circle it forms… but circular logic is no logic.

Tuomir.1830:

So, basically, Malafide, you are saying the dragons are evil because they do bad things to us, and we are good because we fight them? What a nice circle it forms… but circular logic is no logic.

No, I’m saying they are evil because they do bad things to innocent people, when they have no need to do so. They do not seek out alternatives, nor seek out peaceful solutions. And in the case of Primordus, seek only to destroy everything. And they do no good. At all.

Please tell me in what context mass genocide of several species, including defenseless and peaceful creatures, and wanting to destroy everything, is ever a good thing?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

-murdering
-genocide (mass genocide even)
-tempting others/indoctrination
-corruption of body and soul
-driving entire societies away by purposefully spreading fear and cowing innocents
-creating evil creatures
-using others for personal gain
-bringing despair
-allowing minions/servants to commit atrocities

That basically describes any civilization throughout history. People may or may not be good, but we willingly allow evil acts to happen to continue to survive, grow, spread, and thrive. Old school survival of the fittest.

The Elder Dragons are doing the same. The difference being we’re the victims, instead of the aggressors, this time. This has nothing to do with good vs. evil, since both sides are guilty of crimes against the other. The only thing this deals with is survival in the end.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

So, basically, Malafide, you are saying the dragons are evil because they do bad things to us, and we are good because we fight them? What a nice circle it forms… but circular logic is no logic.

No, I’m saying they are evil because they do bad things to innocent people, when they have no need to do so. They do not seek out alternatives, nor seek out peaceful solutions. And in the case of Primordus, seek only to destroy everything. And they do no good. At all.

Please tell me in what context mass genocide of several species, including defenseless and peaceful creatures, and wanting to destroy everything, is ever a good thing?

Is a human exterminating an anthill evil? And don’t go saying ants aren’t sentient, what’s to say the elder dragon’s don’t have a higher level of sentience than the “sentient races” do? And from out viewpoint, it appears as if Promordus aims to destroy everything. However, even if that’s so, it’s everything as we know it. From the dragon’s viewpoint, it may simply be reforming Tyria, or even returning it to a former state where it was just fire and stone. The dragon doesn’t, and doesn’t need to, consider the lives of those living in it, because it is so far above them.

Erukk.1408:

That basically describes any civilization throughout history. People may or may not be good, but we willingly allow evil acts to happen to continue to survive, grow, spread, and thrive. Old school survival of the fittest.

But we also do good things! Don’t leave that out. And we also stop evil acts.

Erukk.1408:

The Elder Dragons are doing the same. The difference being we’re the victims, instead of the aggressors, this time. This has nothing to do with good vs. evil, since both sides are guilty of crimes against the other. The only thing this deals with is survival in the end.

The survival argument would only hold true, if the Elder Dragons weren’t sentient beings (and if killing us was a requirement for their survival). You can forgive a tiger for trying to survive. But the Elder Dragons are different. And if you want to make the claim that the Elder Dragons need to destroy us, in order to survive, then you have to back up that claim with evidence first. Because right now, all you have is a genocide.

Tuomir.1830:

Is a human exterminating an anthill evil? And don’t go saying ants aren’t sentient,

It doesn’t fall under the definition of murder or genocide. If we were to eradicate every single ant on the planet…. that would be a different story.

Tuomir.1830:

what’s to say the elder dragon’s don’t have a higher level of sentience than the “sentient races” do? And from out viewpoint, it appears as if Promordus aims to destroy everything.

No, not just from our point of view. That IS his goal.

Tuomir.1830:

However, even if that’s so, it’s everything as we know it. From the dragon’s viewpoint, it may simply be reforming Tyria, or even returning it to a former state where it was just fire and stone. The dragon doesn’t, and doesn’t need to, consider the lives of those living in it, because it is so far above them.

Yes it does. It is a sentient being, and it is aware of the other sentient beings around it.

That carries a degree of responsibility. You may or may not think of yourself as more intelligent, but that never the less does not give you the right to commit genocide on a perceived lesser species.

That is basically the god argument. That a god would not have to answer for his crimes, if he killed the lesser sentient beings on a planet. And its simply not true. It would still be an evil act.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

However, even if that’s so, it’s everything as we know it. From the dragon’s viewpoint, it may simply be reforming Tyria, or even returning it to a former state where it was just fire and stone. The dragon doesn’t, and doesn’t need to, consider the lives of those living in it, because it is so far above them.

Yes it does. It is a sentient being, and it is aware of the other sentient beings around it.

That carries a degree of responsibility. You may or may not think of yourself as more intelligent, but that never the less does not give you the right to commit genocide on a perceived lesser species.

That is basically the god argument. That a god would not have to answer for his crimes, if he killed the lesser sentient beings on a planet. And its simply not true. It would still be an evil act.

You’re missing the point. We don’t consider ants to be sentient, at least not on a comparable level to us. What makes you think we aren’t the same to the dragons? That is what I mean by having a higher level of sentience, not being smarter. We cannot understand the dragons, so how could we judge them?

Tuomir.1830:

You’re missing the point. We don’t consider ants to be sentient, at least not on a comparable level to us. What makes you think we aren’t the same to the dragons? That is what I mean by having a higher level of sentience, not being smarter. We cannot understand the dragons, so how could we judge them?

Again, you do not always need to understand someone’s motives, to judge their actions. In the case of stealing, it matters. But those are lesser evil deeds. Some evil deeds are so evil, that there are no excuses to be made for them.

And besides, since the dragons actively communicate with us (as Jormag and Zhaitan do) we know that they are not that high above us. They understand us well enough, to understand our wishes and desires, and to try and tempt us with promises of power. This is not like humans, who cannot communicate with ants. There is no way we could possibly tell ants that we don’t want them in our house. The Dragons however speak either directly, or through their champions. They actively recruit the other species to join their armies.

i think that hes trying to point out that compared to the elder dragons we are not sentinel beings in any way. makeing it the same as clearing out forrest and its animals to get more space to live on or reclaim what has been taken from you by nature;)

if a god would kill all lesser beings and he dont see that as a evil act then its not evil in any way(given that the race that god comes from dont see it as evil)

if a new race sprung op on earth and we see that race as evil should we not kill it?
destroying all life would be very bad for us but for the elder dragons i would not know that would depend on where magic come from. but i would agree that protimus is evil into we know where magic is comming from and what hes motivation is for doing it.

a elder dragon killing a groupe of humans living toghter is not objectiv evil, it is on the other hand evil in our yes, as we are doing the exat same thing to gain land or reclaim land from nature.

and to your last post we communicat with alot of animals and promise them something they desire to gain there obidince whats diffrent for the dragons doing the same.
is a dog, cow or any other animal we promise food, shelter and safety not corrupeted by our promise and dont we understand there wishes and diseris well enough to corrupt them enough(we might not be very good at it anymore, tho but the first animals we used where wild animals, now they have growen into a breed of slaves to us makeing knowlege about them unesseary as they only know how to follow us to survive)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tuomir.1830:

You’re missing the point. We don’t consider ants to be sentient, at least not on a comparable level to us. What makes you think we aren’t the same to the dragons? That is what I mean by having a higher level of sentience, not being smarter. We cannot understand the dragons, so how could we judge them?

Again, you do not always need to understand someone’s motives, to judge their actions. In the case of stealing, it matters. But those are lesser evil deeds. Some evil deeds are so evil, that there are no excuses to be made for them.

And where’s that borderline? Who can draw it? You?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And besides, since the dragons actively communicate with us (as Jormag and Zhaitan do) we know that they are not that high above us. They understand us well enough, to understand our wishes and desires, and to try and tempt us with promises of power. This is not like humans, who cannot communicate with ants. There is no way we could possibly tell ants that we don’t want them in our house. The Dragons however speak either directly, or through their champions. They actively recruit the other species to join their armies.

It is never the dragons themselves who communicates with us.

Aren’t the sentient races fighting the Elder Dragons over magic, a resource? We need magic to live the lives we are accustomed too. The Elder Dragons need it to survive, lest they fall into a state of hibernation due to starvation. Conflict is always going to happen between two totally different parties, over a resource like this. Even more so, when one party needs it.

I need evidence that the Elder Dragons need to destroy/control us to survive? We _ killed_ Zhaitan. We showed him, when we killed his champions, and the other Elder Dragons that we will shoot them out of the sky, with either cannons or lasers, and kill them without remorse.

As I said before, survival of the fittest. It’s a war over resources.

“Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, Caste, religious, or national group”, though what constitutes enough of a “part” to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”*
And also:
“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups”

I already did. Genocide is absolutely evil regardless of any context. But you just don’t understand what the word means. But after posting such an elaborate quotation of what “it is”, even you have no further excuse not to understand it.

Every law ever spoken or written by Humans in real life is arbitrary and is always used in a way to defend their own beliefs. Just because a bunch of politicians say something is the the right definition doesn’t mean it is, look at the word Marriage does the Oxford dictionary’s new definition right?. And anyone else that thinks otherwise a stark razing mad loon for not seeing it that way. English is an evolving language and so are international laws what is good today can be see as a crime against humanity in 100 years.

Maybe they are just hungry?

Erukk.1408:

Aren’t the sentient races fighting the Elder Dragons over magic, a resource? We need magic to live the lives we are accustomed too.

Eh, no. The various species are born with an innate talent for magic. They already have that gift. It is not a resource that we are fighting for.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Eh, no. The various species are born with an innate talent for magic. They already have that gift. It is not a resource that we are fighting for.

Do we actually know that though?

The races didn’t have magic from the beginning, it was given to them by Abaddon, wouldn’t that imply that if the supply of magic was removed they would lose their ability to use magic?

given that we know that magic can be removed and then given agien it cant be a talent in any way.
The talent can tho be to use the magic thats there and get it to do your bidding.

and for refrences to that magic can be removed look at the bloodstones and the fact that abaddon gave magic back to the races.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone
and
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

lordkrall.7241:

Do we actually know that though?

The races didn’t have magic from the beginning, it was given to them by Abaddon, wouldn’t that imply that if the supply of magic was removed they would lose their ability to use magic?

Well if I remember correctly, (and I’m sure Konig will correct me on this if I’m wrong), Abaddon gave the people of Tyria the gift of magic. This lead to many wars, and thus King Doric pleaded to the Gods. What the Gods did was split the magic into different parts, through the sundering of the Bloodstones. This would prevent anyone from ever controlling all magic.

So the races didn’t have magic from the beginning. But they do have it now, for quite a long time. The races of Tyria do not have to be close to the Bloodstones to have magic. The land, I suppose, is filled with magic. And people are born with this gift naturally. Some are more talented in magic than others. And some study harder. The combination of the two makes for truly powerful magic users.

It is also important to note that some of the lore of GW1 regarding the history of magic has been slightly altered, and expanded for GW2. Thus we now have the older races like the Jotun, who also practiced magic. And the Gods building Arah on Orr, because they were attracted to the magical powers of Zhaitan, was also copy pasted in later.