Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
The Dragons might not be evil.
given that the elder races gave up magic when they sealed it in the bloodstone it is a resource that can be taken away and have been done before agienst the dragons
That’s not exactly how it happened. While it is unclear if the Elder Dragons are after the Bloodstones (this is something that I’ve suggested as a theory in the past), even if they did get their hands on it, it is unclear if this would remove our magical abilities. The fight against the Elder Dragons currently is not a fight for the Bloodstones. In fact, there has been no mention of the Bloodstones at all.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
i never said that they where after it but i said that magic can be taken away from people as the elder races put there magic in there and first got it back when the human gods gave it to them, meaning that magic must be a resource your able to contain in some way.
Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Another sort of off-the-current-topic post, brought to you by meee!
Mad Queen Malafide,
To use your definition of genocide (“the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."), the Elder Dragons do not seem to fit any of these. Perhaps a “national” group, but I personally feel like that is stretching the context of the word – especially since they are spread out across the world. They are unique, individual creatures; only grouped together under one name because they look and behave in a similar fashion. I’m not quite sure you can commit genocide on one individual, if it is the only one of its kind.
Especially if you’re killing them to prevent them from doing greater harm to your people(s) than they already have. That’s still self defense.
When the seers made the bloodstone, nearly all magic (including Jotun magic) was absorbed to it. When Abaddon gave magic to the people of Tyria, he gave them access to all that magic drawn into the bloodstone. Then comes wars, destruction, godfall, splitting of bloodstone, and so on. However, before the seers created the bloodstone, magic naturally didn’t come from it – from where, that is not certain, but many skill challenges seem to imply that magic comes from underground, and seems to somehow resonate with places with significant history. But no living being is born with magic in them, instead, some are born with the ability to channel it, originally from all around, and later through bloodstones. Distance doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
I disagree, because some of the minions are also corrupted in their very soul. And besides, turning beings into a state of dangerous vile fanaticism is still an evil act. Do we have any indication that these dragons are trying to transform people into loving benevolent creatures? No. They turn them into aggressive soldiers for their armies. That is evil.
King Reza disagrees with you about his soul being corrupted into evil.
How do you know the Elder Dragons intend their minions to be dangerous and evil?
No, nothing says the ED are trying to make benevolent minions, that doesn’t make them evil. They weren’t exactly benevolent before becoming minions either.
I’m not sure if I understand the question entirely, can you rephrase it?
You said that Zhaitan intended to rule Orr. But if Orr didn’t sink and wasn’t full of nothing but corpses, would Zhaitan still have intended to rule it? Nothing really says he had the intention to do so, just that he did rule a nation of corpses. So what if he didn’t wake up in a desolate nation but instead a thriving, living, nation? Would his actions be the same or different?
It was a rhetorical question – you cannot answer because we do not know what he would have done, because it is not stated that he had the forethought of ruling Orr before he woke up.
Normal people are turned into violent monsters. I think that is pretty obvious.
Then what of the land? Their influence on the land – is that evil?
Maybe they just aren’t compatible with living with creatures not similar to themselves – that they are just so old that when they came into being, such other creatures that could be twisted by their influence did not exist, but when they did, the combination was merely violent.
This would mean that the Elder Dragons are not evil outright, it’s just that their natural interaction with others is harmful. As if they’re unintentionally constantly getting static shocks when touching other things and beings.
Indoctrination is also an evil act. It is a form of mental corruption.
So by your standard – something I think you ignored utterly – Mass Effect 2 claims an evil act is good, by attributing Paragon points to where you have the choice to wipe out a religious sect of Geth, or rewrite their AI so that they refuse their beliefs.
In such a scenario – where leaving one be would result in them being crazed killers – is this an evil act? If no, then take into consideration how the races are. Humans are warmongering for thousands of years. Charr are warmongering for even longer. Asura seek to rule over the others. Kodan are self-rightous pompous kittens. They can all be corrupted. Forgotten sought honest balance not among themselves but the other races and the world; sylvari seek to learn and help the good and rid the evil – both of these races cannot be corrupted. An interesting thought to consider:
Only the races shown in large numbers to do evil in some form are seen corrupted. This ties back to my previous question of “what if the Elder Dragons are trying to protect the world by eliminating the threats that are slowly killing it?” The most violent races are the ones most often seen corrupted (or those seeking corruption in the case of the Sons of Svanir, whose personalities hardly change before and after corruption).
That is where you are wrong. The laws put forward by society, help stop people from committing acts that are considered harmful to that society. But never the less there are acts that are always wrong, regardless of our laws. Such as genocide. Unless you cherry pick a very specific fantasy scenario, genocide is always en evil act. This is where we go back to objective morality. This is why laws do not dictate morality.
Genocide of the KKK or kittens. Evil; yes or no?
Brutally murdering and torturing innocent people is always a wrong act. That invalidates your statement.
You’re using that argument a lot, and I haven’t touched it yet, but now I will. Define “innocent” and ask yourself if there truly is anyone who can match a shared definition of the term. It’s all nice and dandy to use the term and using it to argue who or what is irrevocably evil but ask yourself this:
Who is irrevocably good or innocent? And if such people do not exist, wouldn’t that mean “people who are irrevocably evil” also couldn’t exist?
I have met, read about, and heard of even little children who are far from this so-called “innocent” – yet it is general belief that children are the most innocent of any human (far from it – more of “most ignorant”).
-more in next post-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Now it gets complicated, but this may be one of your best points yet. Good forces killing an evil being, are doing a good act (as the Book of Vile Darkness explained). And an evil creature, may believe that he/she is actually fighting evil, but that does not make it a good act.
However, if a so-called “evil” being believes he/she is fighting evil, how can you prove that person is evil in the first place? Would that not simply be “misguided”? I would not call someone who cannot differentiate between right and wrong yet does something cruel to be “evil.”
Take Canach for example. He is, without argument, a terrorist. He caused terror in an attempt to get rid of the binding contracts keeping the refugees on Southsun Cove. In doing so, he harmed innocents. But his intentions were good. Is he evil? I would say no. He was merely misguided.
Someone who is called evil, but him/herself believes is fighting evil, I would argue is likely to be such a situation. Someone who has good intentions, but is misguided. I would not call such things evil.
But those very same races also do good acts. And they act in retaliation to the aggressors, they did not start this war. People are defined by the sum of good and evil that they do. Not just the evil acts. Granted, some evil acts are worse than others.
By “this war” do you refer to against the Elder Dragons? But honestly, did they? In the case of Primordus, yes. But in the case of the others? With Jormag, we’re not sure who swung the blade first but after the norn were pushed south, at least until GW2’s time (since that’s more questionable), the Dragonspawn only acted in retaliation (the Sons of Svanir – both corrupted and non – act differently than the rest of the group, and the only assaulting non-SoS icebrood we’ve seen are those harrowing the kodan). But with Zhaitan, we know that ships traveled into Risen territory long before Dead Ships left Orrian waters – those ships could have acted as instigators (intentionally or not), thus sparking a war. With Kralkatorrik, his goal was Glint – the Branded were just caught up in a battle far larger than themselves, and since then the charr have been constantly assaulting.
Now, if those three Elder Dragons were each instigated into attacking the races by the races, who in turn instigated due to the natural destructions caused by the Elder Dragons simply moving about – be it the rise of a continent or shattering mountains when rising, or one’s breath twisting the land below in a fit of rage over betrayal. Would these three Elder Dragons still be evil? After all, one can then view corrupting into minions to be conscripting and drafting, and in war acts such as striking ports (even if mainly civilian) is quite a common and considered strategic act. If they are evil for such, then most of humanity’s history is evil.
However, you completely skipped over the most important part:
Even the races’ “good acts” prove harmful to the world. The charr who are advancing their science but in a polluting method (like most if not all charr tech is), then they are still harming the world in the long run. If an asura is advancing magitech in a polluting manner, then they are still harming the world. And it is this act of “harming the world” which I present as being why the Elder Dragons could be assaulting the races – one of many possibilities.
You would have to prove this first. Because currently nothing points in this direction. And Primordus even indicates that they may just be creatures of pure destruction.
ahem Clearly you forgot points I brought forth before. There’s one line with particular interest about this:
_*Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan:* Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are – and you must die! _
The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan acts as if us “cleansing” the “corruption” changes things to be its unnatural state.
There’s also Whiting in Sea of Sorrows talking as if Orr is a sentient being.
-more in next post, again!-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
That is a difficult question. One that would never be possible in any real life setting. If we knew the Elder Dragons to be the last of their kind, then by wiping them out we would be committing a wrong act. However, since the dragons have made it pretty clear they do not want to share this world with us, they may not leave us any choice.
You keep going about real life settings, but we’re not really discussing that are we? We’re trying to discern, effectively, “are the Elder Dragons evil?” and by extension we are going into the question “what makes them evil (or not)? why does this make them evil (or not)? and could their acts be redeemed by something else about them (motivations, beliefs, nature, etc.)?”
why is stopping the elder dragons a good act?
because they are evil in our eyes, i will bet we are evil in there makeing it a full circle with evil killing evil when looking at it from both perspectivesThey are objectively evil. As I pointed out, some acts cannot be defended. Primordus for example wanting to destroy everything. That is an outright evil goal.
This is where I utterly disagree with you.
At best, by your reasoning, they would be “conflicted” – doing evil acts yet also doing good acts. But this all depends on unknowns – what are their intentions, their motivations, their reasons and their reasonings, and how do they view others?
We know their actions, but not why they are. In most cases, the races shot first (not Han). In the few situations we see the Elder Dragons’ minions talking, they are acting out of revenge or with the belief – true or not – that the dragons’ influence is not harmful. In some cases, the later could simply be the fanatical-ness of the minions, but that still wouldn’t explain the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s words and tones, as if speaking like what we were doing was evil and unnatural.
and for refrences to that magic can be removed look at the bloodstones and the fact that abaddon gave magic back to the races.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone
and
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic
Ugh. The GW2W’s article for magic has speculation and false facts up the wazoo, don’t trust it.
Also: Ritualists show that magic existed even between the time of the Bloodstone’s creation and Abaddon tampering with it.
Well if I remember correctly, (and I’m sure Konig will correct me on this if I’m wrong), Abaddon gave the people of Tyria the gift of magic. This lead to many wars, and thus King Doric pleaded to the Gods. What the Gods did was split the magic into different parts, through the sundering of the Bloodstones. This would prevent anyone from ever controlling all magic.
That’s what we were told initially, but the Arah explorable mode dungeon tells us that magic existed long before, that the bloodstone was made by the seers and Abaddon simply tampered with it in his granting the gift of magic. Honestly, I question if the four schools originate with the splitting of the Bloodstone now – as well as Doric’s role in the sealing.
And the Gods building Arah on Orr, because they were attracted to the magical powers of Zhaitan, was also copy pasted in later.
Er, no. They were attracted to the Artesian Waters. They tapped into Zhaitan when splitting the bloodstones, but it was the Artesian Waters that drew them from Orr (from across the Mists, might I add).
However, before the seers created the bloodstone, magic naturally didn’t come from it – from where, that is not certain, but many skill challenges seem to imply that magic comes from underground, and seems to somehow resonate with places with significant history. But no living being is born with magic in them, instead, some are born with the ability to channel it, originally from all around, and later through bloodstones. Distance doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Firstly, skill challenges hint to magic being in high concentration in two things: places of many deaths, and water.
Secondly, Oola disagrees with your claim that no living being is born with magic. She claims that we are the embodiment of magic – and it is true to an extent! Ritualists are able to bypass the Bloodstones and had magic beforehand through the use of souls. Demons – and other creatures – use souls as nourishment. At the very least, souls are power. Whether this power can be called “magic” is up to question, however.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
If the soul was a type of energy/magic that the Elder Dragons can consume, could it be possible that the Elder Dragon could view us as a type of living resource? The same way humans view chickens, cows, pigs, plants, and such?
It would also explain why Glint hid away the races, after she was freed from the corruption by the Forgotten. After the Bloodstone sealed away all the naturally occurring magic, the only source of food by then, for the Elder Dragons, might have been the races themselves.
Well if I remember correctly, (and I’m sure Konig will correct me on this if I’m wrong), Abaddon gave the people of Tyria the gift of magic. This lead to many wars, and thus King Doric pleaded to the Gods. What the Gods did was split the magic into different parts, through the sundering of the Bloodstones. This would prevent anyone from ever controlling all magic.
So the races didn’t have magic from the beginning. But they do have it now, for quite a long time. The races of Tyria do not have to be close to the Bloodstones to have magic. The land, I suppose, is filled with magic. And people are born with this gift naturally. Some are more talented in magic than others. And some study harder. The combination of the two makes for truly powerful magic users.
It is also important to note that some of the lore of GW1 regarding the history of magic has been slightly altered, and expanded for GW2. Thus we now have the older races like the Jotun, who also practiced magic. And the Gods building Arah on Orr, because they were attracted to the magical powers of Zhaitan, was also copy pasted in later.
Do we actually have any proof that magic comes naturally to people though? As far as we know everyone can learn to use magic, but no one can use magic at birth.
Until we actually know how magic in Tyria works this stating that we can never lose it is quite silly.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
How do you know the Elder Dragons intend their minions to be dangerous and evil?
No, nothing says the ED are trying to make benevolent minions, that doesn’t make them evil. They weren’t exactly benevolent before becoming minions either.
Fair point. However, it stands to reason that the Elder Dragons are aware of the acts that their minions are committing. So whether they intended them to be evil or not, they sure aren’t make any effort to stop them from doing evil. And that in itself can be considered an evil act as well.
It was a rhetorical question – you cannot answer because we do not know what he would have done, because it is not stated that he had the forethought of ruling Orr before he woke up.
It’s a pity that now that he’s dead, we may never learn more about his motives.
Then what of the land? Their influence on the land – is that evil?
I think the corruption they cause is a vile influence. It’s definitely not natural.
This would mean that the Elder Dragons are not evil outright, it’s just that their natural interaction with others is harmful. As if they’re unintentionally constantly getting static shocks when touching other things and beings.
If they do not intend any harm to us, then why are then sending forth entire armies, and sending in their champions to attack our settlements? I get what you are saying, it could be that someone like Kralkatorrik cannot help turning things into crystal beneath his shadow… but then why does it also turn branded creatures into his dedicated twisted minions? It seems awfully convenient.
So by your standard – something I think you ignored utterly – Mass Effect 2 claims an evil act is good, by attributing Paragon points to where you have the choice to wipe out a religious sect of Geth, or rewrite their AI so that they refuse their beliefs.
Rewriting AI in itself is not an evil act. But genocide, even of the Geth, yes that is evil. Keep in mind though that rewriting their AI was part of a plan to actually stop the endless war between Geth and Quarrians. I think that’s what we call a necessary evil.
Humans are warmongering for thousands of years. Charr are warmongering for even longer. Asura seek to rule over the others. Kodan are self-rightous pompous kittens. They can all be corrupted. Forgotten sought honest balance not among themselves but the other races and the world; sylvari seek to learn and help the good and rid the evil – both of these races cannot be corrupted. An interesting thought to consider:
I think we all know that Sylvari CAN be corrupted.
“what if the Elder Dragons are trying to protect the world by eliminating the threats that are slowly killing it?” The most violent races are the ones most often seen corrupted (or those seeking corruption in the case of the Sons of Svanir, whose personalities hardly change before and after corruption).
Does it really seem that way though? Didn’t Primordus prepare for war before even making contact with the Asura? Does it seem at all that the Elder Dragons are trying to stop wars? And do you believe for a second that the Elder Dragons would spare the lives of those other “peaceful” races?
Genocide of the KKK or kittens. Evil; yes or no?
Evil. Genocide is always wrong. Even if you don’t share the ideas of the people in question.
Who is irrevocably good or innocent? And if such people do not exist, wouldn’t that mean “people who are irrevocably evil” also couldn’t exist?
No one of course. We are all capable of good and evil. However, it’s fair to say most of the Norn children that had to flee their settlements (or were killed), did nothing to deserve that fate. I would definitely call them innocent. Or the Asura families that were murdered by Primordus and his army? All innocents.
I have met, read about, and heard of even little children who are far from this so-called “innocent” – yet it is general belief that children are the most innocent of any human (far from it – more of “most ignorant”).
Child soldiers aside, I think most children should be considered innocent.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
However, if a so-called “evil” being believes he/she is fighting evil, how can you prove that person is evil in the first place? Would that not simply be “misguided”? I would not call someone who cannot differentiate between right and wrong yet does something cruel to be “evil.”
Evil people can definitely be misguided, see again the definition at the start of this discussion. But the acts themselves would still be evil, and that makes the person committing them also evil. Even IF that person did not know he was doing evil, the fact that he doesn’t recognize the harm he’s doing, indicates an amoral person, committing vile acts. Evil people often do not consider their own acts evil, nor themselves. But they are never the less evil persons.
Take Canach for example. He is, without argument, a terrorist. He caused terror in an attempt to get rid of the binding contracts keeping the refugees on Southsun Cove. In doing so, he harmed innocents. But his intentions were good. Is he evil? I would say no. He was merely misguided.
He got tons of people killed! Yes, he’s evil. Misguided, also, but still evil. Doesn’t matter if his intentions were good in this case, murder is murder.
Someone who has good intentions, but is misguided. I would not call such things evil.
Some of the most evil people in history had good intentions. As they say, “the road to hell is paved with them”.
By “this war” do you refer to against the Elder Dragons?
Yep.
With Jormag, we’re not sure who swung the blade first (snip). But with Zhaitan, we know that ships traveled into Risen territory long before Dead Ships left Orrian waters – those ships could have acted as instigators (intentionally or not), thus sparking a war. With Kralkatorrik, his goal was Glint – the Branded were just caught up in a battle far larger than themselves, and since then the charr have been constantly assaulting.
Fair point in the case of Zhaitan and Jormag. Kralkatorrik wanted revenge on Glint. Revenge is an evil goal. Context matters however.
Would these three Elder Dragons still be evil? After all, one can then view corrupting into minions to be conscripting and drafting, and in war acts such as striking ports (even if mainly civilian) is quite a common and considered strategic act. If they are evil for such, then most of humanity’s history is evil.
I think it’s fair to say there is a big difference between drafting, and corrupting. When we draft people, we may give them a nice uniform. But we don’t twist their bodies an souls into nightmarish forms. And that still does not excuse the terror the Dragons spread, or their acts of murder.
Even the races’ “good acts” prove harmful to the world. The charr who are advancing their science but in a polluting method (like most if not all charr tech is), then they are still harming the world in the long run. If an asura is advancing magitech in a polluting manner, then they are still harming the world. And it is this act of “harming the world” which I present as being why the Elder Dragons could be assaulting the races – one of many possibilities.
Can you prove that we are harming the world of Tyria?
_*Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan:* Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are – and you must die! _
The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan acts as if us “cleansing” the “corruption” changes things to be its unnatural state.
In the eyes of undead, they may think that way. But we know these waters were normal before. Before the demise of the continent at Khilbrons hands, the waters were clean. I see no reason why this dialogue means anything more than the minions of Zhaitan trying to keep things corrupted.
There’s also Whiting in Sea of Sorrows talking as if Orr is a sentient being.
Under Zhaitan’s influence this may now be the case. We simply do not know at this point.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
Evil. Genocide is always wrong. Even if you don’t share the ideas of the people in question.
So the “good” races are confirmed to be evil then, since we all plan to commit genocide on the Elder Dragons. Thanks for finally admitting what we have been trying to tell you for about 5 pages.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
We know their actions, but not why they are. In most cases, the races shot first (not Han). In the few situations we see the Elder Dragons’ minions talking, they are acting out of revenge or with the belief – true or not – that the dragons’ influence is not harmful. In some cases, the later could simply be the fanatical-ness of the minions, but that still wouldn’t explain the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s words and tones, as if speaking like what we were doing was evil and unnatural.
Evil minions would always see their enemies as committing evil acts. But that does not make it so. You would have to present actual evidence that what we are doing is harming the land. A quote from a dedicated minion of Zhaitan does not make it so.
Honestly, I question if the four schools originate with the splitting of the Bloodstone now – as well as Doric’s role in the sealing.
:/ Yeah, they’ve made a bit of a mess of some of the original lore now.
Er, no. They were attracted to the Artesian Waters. They tapped into Zhaitan when splitting the bloodstones, but it was the Artesian Waters that drew them from Orr (from across the Mists, might I add).
Ah, right. Zhaitan was added later though. There’s a lot of stuff being pasted in there that wasn’t in the original manuscripts.
So the “good” races are confirmed to be evil then, since we all plan to commit genocide on the Elder Dragons. Thanks for finally admitting what we have been trying to tell you for about 5 pages.
No, you’re still simplifying things for the sake of trying to win an argument. That is not what this discussion is about. It’s not about who is right and who is wrong. It is about the definition of evil, and if the acts of the Elder Dragons can be considered as such.
Genocide against a vast group of sentient beings is evil, yes. But there is no hint of that here. We are retaliating against individuals who attacked us. Now if one of these Elder Dragons suddenly puts up a Sean Connery accent, and claims to be “the last one”, then yes, then we are committing an evil act by not seeking out a peaceful alternative. But that is not the case.
And for the record, Tyria has many species of lesser dragons. Yet we are not hunting them down and exterminating them.
Do we actually have any proof that magic comes naturally to people though? As far as we know everyone can learn to use magic, but no one can use magic at birth.
Until we actually know how magic in Tyria works this stating that we can never lose it is quite silly.
We do have proof of this actually. Oola has stated that we are born with innate magical abilities. But it takes study and dedication to use it to it’s full potential.
And I never stated explicidly if we can or cannot lose our magical abilities.
If the soul was a type of energy/magic that the Elder Dragons can consume, could it be possible that the Elder Dragon could view us as a type of living resource? The same way humans view chickens, cows, pigs, plants, and such?
It would also explain why Glint hid away the races, after she was freed from the corruption by the Forgotten. After the Bloodstone sealed away all the naturally occurring magic, the only source of food by then, for the Elder Dragons, might have been the races themselves.
It doesn’t seem like the Elder Dragons are trying to eat us all at the moment. So that seems unlikely.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
Why would they need to eat us at the moment? They have plenty of magical artifacts around to sate their hunger it seems. If magic was sealed again though, we might be very much at the top of the menu.
Another reason could be that they need us at the moment. Zhaitan needed corpses to turn into minions, and he needed minions to help gather its food and more corpses. If Zhaitan raided the cities and devoured everyone, it would have been cutting into its own future food supply.
We also know that without the Mouths, Zhaitan was basically starving at the point we encountered it. Zhaitan might have been able to feed itself, but if it was starving at the time of Arah story, that would suggest it relied heavily on getting its sustenance from it’s minions. If Orr was nearly picked clean of magical artifacts, Zhaitan would have to expand its domain to acquire more food.
The only Elder Dragon we know use this method, the Mouths, is Zhaitan though, since we know next to nothing definitive on the other Elder Dragons. That only other thing I can think of that comes close, is Jormag using the Sons to send Icebrood into the Mists. The Mists could possibly be a buffet to an Elder Dragon. Magic, magic everywhere!
magical abilities can also be the power to manipulet or channel the flow of magic trough you to make it do your bidding but if there is nothing to channel that ability is worth nothing;)
can you say with out a doubt in your mind that we are not corrupting the world and the dragons are removeing that corruption?
just because the waters we see have always been clean, does not make it how the world should be if its uncorrupt, from some influence. We could be nothing more then life that toke root in that corruption, and evolved to what we have today, but the elder dragons know how the world really should be, given there age, and are uncorrupting it as they move about.
if we have to present that the elder dragons are not evil and you dont have to present anything stating that the other races are good how does that work?
we are good because we kill the elder dragons that are evil. Right now we are debating if the elder dragons are evil or not, so you have to present evidens backing your beliefs that our races are good, without useing the elder dragons as refence as its them thats in question if they truely are evil.
and yes we know that Sylvari can not be corrupted by the elder dragons as we have been told that by the gms somewhere(cant find it now and i give up as the search function is as broken as it is)
Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
and yes we know that Sylvari can not be corrupted by the elder dragons as we have been told that by the gms somewhere(cant find it now and i give up as the search function is as broken as it is)
But apparently they can become part of the Nightmare Court, so I wouldn’t say they are completely immune to corruption in itself.
if we have to present that the elder dragons are not evil and you dont have to present anything stating that the other races are good how does that work?
we are good because we kill the elder dragons that are evil. Right now we are debating if the elder dragons are evil or not, so you have to present evidens backing your beliefs that our races are good, without useing the elder dragons as refence as its them thats in question if they truely are evil.
In any court, people are presumed innocent, until proven guilty. We do that for a very good reason: It is very difficult to prove that someone is innocent. But if someone’s guilty, then there is actual evidence to present. I think I’ve presented pretty solid examples of clear evil acts that the Elder Dragons commit.
There for, unless good evidence is presented that the races are evil, they are good.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
the nightmare court is from all we know not a dragon corruption
the searing, the enslavement of skrit for the porpes of making test on them, ascelonions destroyktion whant me to name more ndicating they are evil?
Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
and yes we know that Sylvari can not be corrupted by the elder dragons as we have been told that by the gms somewhere(cant find it now and i give up as the search function is as broken as it is)
But apparently they can become part of the Nightmare Court, so I wouldn’t say they are completely immune to corruption in itself.
Their shape remains the same. They may be followers of an elder dragon (like Sons of Svanir) or use it’s influence, but they definitely aren’t corrupted. And even if they were, it’d just reinforce Konig’s theory, as the sylvari who abandon the dream and live a life of inflicting pain and suffering could be corrupted, whereas the sylvari of Grove could now. However, there are issues with that theory, namely the very peaceful quaggan and wild animals.
However, before the seers created the bloodstone, magic naturally didn’t come from it – from where, that is not certain, but many skill challenges seem to imply that magic comes from underground, and seems to somehow resonate with places with significant history. But no living being is born with magic in them, instead, some are born with the ability to channel it, originally from all around, and later through bloodstones. Distance doesn’t seem to make a difference.
Firstly, skill challenges hint to magic being in high concentration in two things: places of many deaths, and water.
Secondly, Oola disagrees with your claim that no living being is born with magic. She claims that we are the embodiment of magic – and it is true to an extent! Ritualists are able to bypass the Bloodstones and had magic beforehand through the use of souls. Demons – and other creatures – use souls as nourishment. At the very least, souls are power. Whether this power can be called “magic” is up to question, however.
Ah yes, I was writing that off my memory, seems like I got a few things wrong…
I disagree with the notion that ritualists were able to use magic before Abaddon gave access to the bloodstone – they could commune with spirits, and do other similar tasks, but that couldn’t have used magic in the form we are talking about, since I doubt the forgotten would have missed such a thing when creating the bloodstone and leave the dragons magic to feast on. Later, ritualists augmented their trade with magic, and eventually became what they were in GW1.
And yes, we can assume souls hold power. It is also interesting to note the the bloodstone shards seem to have an effect of drawing in souls as well, but only from close proximity. My theory is that “magic” and elder dragons come from Tyria, and “souls” and creatures with them come from somewhere in the mists. “Magic” and “souls” would be similar power, but in different form. The embodiment of magic that Oola referred to could be this soul.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
If the soul was a type of energy/magic that the Elder Dragons can consume, could it be possible that the Elder Dragon could view us as a type of living resource? The same way humans view chickens, cows, pigs, plants, and such?
It would also explain why Glint hid away the races, after she was freed from the corruption by the Forgotten. After the Bloodstone sealed away all the naturally occurring magic, the only source of food by then, for the Elder Dragons, might have been the races themselves.
I’ve always theorized this was exactly why the Elder Dragons corrupt the living in the first place – and why Jormag devoured Owl (rather than just “killing” it). Ever since finding out that the Elder Dragons consume magic, that is.
Do we actually have any proof that magic comes naturally to people though? As far as we know everyone can learn to use magic, but no one can use magic at birth.
Until we actually know how magic in Tyria works this stating that we can never lose it is quite silly.
There are mentions of people who hate “innate talent” for magic, for example – Cynn from the Prophecies manual.
Fair point. However, it stands to reason that the Elder Dragons are aware of the acts that their minions are committing. So whether they intended them to be evil or not, they sure aren’t make any effort to stop them from doing evil. And that in itself can be considered an evil act as well.
Let’s say you own a cat. Now lets say that this cat of yours kills a mouse. Will you punish it for killing the mouse (maybe if it brought the mouse’s corpse into your home, sure, but for just killing it)? Most likely not.
Elder Dragons don’t seem to view the races as something on par to them. Humanity, in reality – that is, us – find this “evil” or even “attrocious” because let’s face it, we’re stuck up due to the fact we’re the only openly sapient race on the planet. Ever read a story where there’s a species which is similarly sentient as humans, and treats humans as beneath the food chain? In most of these stories, the humans will view this other species as evil and vile, as wrong for believing such. But if you truly look at it – it’s little different than how humanity treats every other species on this planet. And for what? Because we cannot communicate, essentially. I’m not going to argue said species is “in the right” or even “not evil” – in most scenarios, they are evil and stuck up (just like your atypical egotistical rich noble/businessman in stories who view common folks as beneath him/her).
Now consider this: we, as far as we know, cannot communicate with the Elder Dragons. They see themselves as above us. As far as we can tell, this is no different than a human treating a cow as beneath them. A mere resource.
If that’s the situation, is the Elder Dragon still “evil” for not stopping a pet from killing other animals?
I think the corruption they cause is a vile influence. It’s definitely not natural.
I have presented evidence that points to the possibility of the contrary (about the “not natural”). So what if it was natural for the world to look that way? That if, by nature, Tyria is meant to be a world of little daylight that holds shimmering landscapes of ice, fire, crystal, and so forth (odd thing about dragon corruption – they all look similar but with different colors and solidity – sans Zhaitan)?
-more in next post-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
If they do not intend any harm to us, then why are then sending forth entire armies, and sending in their champions to attack our settlements? I get what you are saying, it could be that someone like Kralkatorrik cannot help turning things into crystal beneath his shadow… but then why does it also turn branded creatures into his dedicated twisted minions? It seems awfully convenient.
The Branded are doing two things:
- Defending the Dragonbrand.
- Trying to reach Kralkatorrik.
Each Elder Dragon sans Primordus was attacked by the races of Tyria first. As far as we can tell, it may be merely the case that they’re acting in retaliation. Kind of like the fall of Abaddon – Margonites defaced some stautes, Forgotten get annoyed and wage war on the Margonites, Abaddon gets annoyed and starts wiping out Forgotten armada, Five Gods get annoyed and beat up Abaddon.
In this case, Elder Dragon rises causing side-effect natural disaster, races see this as a threat and attack back, Elder Dragon retaliates via minions, enter back and forth.
Rewriting AI in itself is not an evil act. But genocide, even of the Geth, yes that is evil. Keep in mind though that rewriting their AI was part of a plan to actually stop the endless war between Geth and Quarrians. I think that’s what we call a necessary evil.
“Reewriting AI in itself is not an evil act.”
“I think that’s what we call a necessary evil.”
Uhhhhhhh….
I think we all know that Sylvari CAN be corrupted.
Currently, no, nothing shows that the Elder Dragons can corrupt sylvari. We can speculate that Modremoth can indirectly at best, since they never physically change, nor are they fanatical to a dragon, but no, we cannot say we know this for certain.
Does it really seem that way though? Didn’t Primordus prepare for war before even making contact with the Asura? Does it seem at all that the Elder Dragons are trying to stop wars? And do you believe for a second that the Elder Dragons would spare the lives of those other “peaceful” races?
I think of Primordus as a separate issue from the other elder dragons. Truthfully, I think of each Elder Dragon as different in the subject of judgment on being good or evil.
And actually, yes. There is evidence to support that sylvari would be spared. Two cases, in fact, in relation to Zhaitan.
- During Close the Eye you meet a sylvari who went made by the Eye of Zhaitan. The risen could have simply killed her, yet they spared her life. Why?
- Caithe is the only sylvari to have seen Zhaitan and lived to tell the tale. She had to get pretty deep into Orr territory to look at him. Yet she survived?
Makes me wonder what would happen if, lore-wise, a sylvari walked peacefully through dragon minions. Naturally, PCs cannot do this unless coded in a certain event or personal story, but it would be interesting to see nonetheless.
No one of course. We are all capable of good and evil. However, it’s fair to say most of the Norn children that had to flee their settlements (or were killed), did nothing to deserve that fate. I would definitely call them innocent. Or the Asura families that were murdered by Primordus and his army? All innocents.
You say no one is irrevocably innocent, yet label a bunch of unknowns who may not have even existed as innocent.
Child soldiers aside, I think most children should be considered innocent.
Why? Because they’re young? Children are just as capable of evil as an adult. The only difference is that adults – in most cases – are taught what’s deemed evil by others and why they shouldn’t do this; children not always so. But nonetheless, they can still do the acts that is deemed “evil.”
Evil people can definitely be misguided, see again the definition at the start of this discussion. But the acts themselves would still be evil, and that makes the person committing them also evil. Even IF that person did not know he was doing evil, the fact that he doesn’t recognize the harm he’s doing, indicates an amoral person, committing vile acts. Evil people often do not consider their own acts evil, nor themselves. But they are never the less evil persons.
Congratulations, every PC in GW is evil. Congratulations, even you may be evil. Because the PCs and several NPCs seek out the total annihilation of various groups – krait, centaurs, Flame Legion, icebrood, Elder Dragons, branded, Sons of Svanir, Nightmare Court, Inquest, so on and so forth. You could be evil because you may do acts others would consider evil even if you don’t consider it evil.
Hallelujah we are all evil!
-more still coming up-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
He got tons of people killed! Yes, he’s evil. Misguided, also, but still evil. Doesn’t matter if his intentions were good in this case, murder is murder.
Were there actually deaths (other than the Consortium sent to kill him) accounted for? Or just injuries. It’s hard to tell mechanically, and I was sadly out of town for most of the content so I’m not sure.
How does one define murder? He may have killed, but is someone who planted a cherry bomb in a mailpost a murderer when he held no intention on the “prank” flinging a piece of wood towards a kid next door, killing said kid? Or how about a police man who was on duty and got startled thus shooting someone fatally? Is a kid who jumped on a rake playfully, making it fling to hit someone who was carrying something dangerous and in turn that “something dangerous” to kill someone a murderer too? I could go on but now my ideas are becoming uncreative.
You defined murder earlier as “killing an innocent.” But again, how does one define innocent? You completely bypassed this question before. Furthermore, by the law, murder is the intentional and premeditated killing of someone (innocent or no) – which I think is a much more concrete and solid definition. By that standard, if there were fatalities by the crazed karka then yes Canach can be considered a murderer (though he never directly killed). But if his direct actions didn’t result in direct deaths and he didn’t intent for deaths of the refugees, would that still be murder? Premeditated, sure, intentional, no.
Fair point in the case of Zhaitan and Jormag. Kralkatorrik wanted revenge on Glint. Revenge is an evil goal. Context matters however.
I punched you for xyz reason. You wanted to hit me back. That’s revenge. You’re evil.
Kralkatorrik likely viewed Glint as a traitor. She’s the reason why he starved into hibernation last time. She effectively attempted murder on him. I doubt that wanting revenge for such a situation can be considered “evil” – certainly not an act of good, but not evil either.
I think it’s fair to say there is a big difference between drafting, and corrupting. When we draft people, we may give them a nice uniform. But we don’t twist their bodies an souls into nightmarish forms. And that still does not excuse the terror the Dragons spread, or their acts of murder.
Souls aren’t twisted. In some cases, they’re utterly excluded from the corruption. But I think you’re taking the term “corruption” a bit too literal here.
Can you prove that we are harming the world of Tyria?
I think that if you go and look at all the smoke coming from the Black Citadel (let alone the other charr outposts), or just take a stroll through the hearts of Metrica Province, you’ll see that the charr and asura are currently harmful to the world. If you look at history – Jade Wind, The Searing, The Cataclysm, Crystal Sea->Desert, the many dozens of wars in human history… how is this not harming the world? How could you possibly argue that effectively destroying an entire region’s ecological system is not harmful to the world?
In the eyes of undead, they may think that way. But we know these waters were normal before. Before the demise of the continent at Khilbrons hands, the waters were clean. I see no reason why this dialogue means anything more than the minions of Zhaitan trying to keep things corrupted.
Oh, really?
You know the state of the world as it was when the world was made? I’m sorry, but no you don’t. No one does. Hell, you cannot even say the waters were clean before the Cataclysm, let alone before the coming of the Six Gods (who are known to have terraformed the landscape of Orr).
-one more post incoming-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Under Zhaitan’s influence this may now be the case. We simply do not know at this point.
The Pale Tree also speaks of Tyria as if it is sentient. Just saying.
Evil minions would always see their enemies as committing evil acts. But that does not make it so. You would have to present actual evidence that what we are doing is harming the land. A quote from a dedicated minion of Zhaitan does not make it so.
But can you prove that “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” wrong? That “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” held the most free will that we saw out of any minion thus far (sans some SoS leaders).
But apparently they can become part of the Nightmare Court, so I wouldn’t say they are completely immune to corruption in itself.
There’s a very large difference between “draconic influence” and simply becoming evil.
This is another reason why I think you’re taking the term too literally.
I disagree with the notion that ritualists were able to use magic before Abaddon gave access to the bloodstone – they could commune with spirits, and do other similar tasks, but that couldn’t have used magic in the form we are talking about, since I doubt the forgotten would have missed such a thing when creating the bloodstone and leave the dragons magic to feast on. Later, ritualists augmented their trade with magic, and eventually became what they were in GW1.
It’s outright stated that the Ritualist profession existed before the gift of magic, and used abilities similar to even “today” (aka Factions’ time). Though the profession changed when “real magic” was introduced, it existed as a magical profession beforehand.
Regardless of how they used magic, they did use it.
Furthermore, the asura also had magic before 1 BE – it was said in an interview somewhere a while back (I think it was between TowerTalk and Ree Soesbee) that the ausra had magic, then felt it spike up in power then drop down lower than before without ever knowing what truly happened.
Given these two facts, I believe that magic isn’t exactly a limited supply (nor is it unlimited – a slow regenerating supply would be best to describe how I believe it to be). As shown through the skill challenges, a lot of deaths creates a concentration of magic. Whether this is due to magic being “attracted” to areas of death, or because such makes magic is unknown. But nonetheless, magic existed in the open world before Abaddon gifted it. Heck, the scriptures of the gods even show this in the fact that the gods themselves used magic. There’s also The Artesian Waters, a source of magic which drew the gods to the world.
There’s a lot that’s telling us “magic existed in the world even between the Bloodstone’s creation and Abaddon gifting it.” It’s just not explicit.
Also: seers, not forgotten, made the original Bloodstone.
It is also interesting to note the the bloodstone shards seem to have an effect of drawing in souls as well, but only from close proximity.
Erm, no they don’t? If you’re referring to the Prophecies’ effect when near those two bloodstones, that’s due to the soul batteries.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I disagree with the notion that ritualists were able to use magic before Abaddon gave access to the bloodstone – they could commune with spirits, and do other similar tasks, but that couldn’t have used magic in the form we are talking about, since I doubt the forgotten would have missed such a thing when creating the bloodstone and leave the dragons magic to feast on. Later, ritualists augmented their trade with magic, and eventually became what they were in GW1.
It’s outright stated that the Ritualist profession existed before the gift of magic, and used abilities similar to even “today” (aka Factions’ time). Though the profession changed when “real magic” was introduced, it existed as a magical profession beforehand.
Regardless of how they used magic, they did use it.
My point is that they used power not recognized as magic by the Bloodstone made by seers.
Furthermore, the asura also had magic before 1 BE – it was said in an interview somewhere a while back (I think it was between TowerTalk and Ree Soesbee) that the ausra had magic, then felt it spike up in power then drop down lower than before without ever knowing what truly happened.
Given these two facts, I believe that magic isn’t exactly a limited supply (nor is it unlimited – a slow regenerating supply would be best to describe how I believe it to be). As shown through the skill challenges, a lot of deaths creates a concentration of magic. Whether this is due to magic being “attracted” to areas of death, or because such makes magic is unknown. But nonetheless, magic existed in the open world before Abaddon gifted it. Heck, the scriptures of the gods even show this in the fact that the gods themselves used magic. There’s also The Artesian Waters, a source of magic which drew the gods to the world.
There’s a lot that’s telling us “magic existed in the world even between the Bloodstone’s creation and Abaddon gifting it.” It’s just not explicit.
If natural, Tyrian, magic comes from underground (and carried up by water), then wouldn’t it make sense for the asura to be able to use it in a weakened form despite the bloodstone? I never said Abaddon gave magic and that there was none before that – just that the bloodstone drained that magic existing on Tyria like a metamystic sinkhole. And technically, binding rituals aren’t spells. When living beings die, their spirit is drawn to the mists, so using their power would be drawing power from the mists, unaffected by the bloodstone.
Also: seers, not forgotten, made the original Bloodstone.
It is also interesting to note the the bloodstone shards seem to have an effect of drawing in souls as well, but only from close proximity.
Erm, no they don’t? If you’re referring to the Prophecies’ effect when near those two bloodstones, that’s due to the soul batteries.
Yes, I should start proofreading my posts, I usually write tired, so, as you may have noticed, I sometimes get stuff mixed up like that. As for the bloodstones, if it was merely the soul batteries, why would they be located on the bloodstones in the first place? They must have some kind of effect on souls, and that effect was utilized by the mursaat.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
My point is that they used power not recognized as magic by the Bloodstone made by seers.
And my point is that that’s not necessarily quite so!
Point back to “magic seems to be a replenishing thing in Tyria” evidence.
If natural, Tyrian, magic comes from underground (and carried up by water), then wouldn’t it make sense for the asura to be able to use it in a weakened form despite the bloodstone? I never said Abaddon gave magic and that there was none before that – just that the bloodstone drained that magic existing on Tyria like a metamystic sinkhole. And technically, binding rituals aren’t spells. When living beings die, their spirit is drawn to the mists, so using their power would be drawing power from the mists, unaffected by the bloodstone.
My point was that magic existed prior to 1 BE outside of the bloodstone. Asura used it. Ritualists used it. The gods sensed it.
As for the bloodstones, if it was merely the soul batteries, why would they be located on the bloodstones in the first place? They must have some kind of effect on souls, and that effect was utilized by the mursaat.
I have always seen the bloodstones acting as a conduit for the soul. As if the soul was electricity, the bloodstone a wall plug, and the soul battery the power cord.
It may simply be that the Bloodstones still can absorb magic (or at least the engravings made on those two particular bloodstones), and with what Oola says about beings and souls being used as food by demons…
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I still hold that souls and magic are different. Demons of the mists can eat souls, but they don’t consume magic. Zhaitan consumes magical artifacts through his minions, but not living beings. Ritualists, quoting from Factions manuscripts, “channel otherworldly energies that summon allies from the void and employ mystic binding rituals that bend those allies to the Ritualist’s will”. At the end, it is explained that “where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master”.
Let’s call that mist magic. That magic doesn’t come from Tyria, it comes from beyond. According to my theory, the elder dragons can’t grasp it, and neither could the bloodstone. Meanwhile, the Tyrian magic, regenerating slowly as you put it, would be absorbed by the bloodstone. Much later, the effect of the bloodstone was weakened, so it didn’t absorb magic quite as fast, allowing the asura, living deep underground, quite possibly near the source, to use some of it.
Now what I’m getting at about the bloodstones and souls, is that while magic is drawn to them (and subsequently channeled from them) from far distances, for them to have any grasp on souls, the soul would have to leave the body while on a bloodstone. This would mean that they both are similar powers, but different enough in nature and origin for the bloodstones to affect them differently.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
I’m still stuck on the fact that Mad feels killing off billions of smallpox viruses isn’t genocide because they’re not human, even though they are a racial group by definition of their classification. That’s like saying it’s okay to kill anything that’s not human simply because it’s not human.
Let’s say you own a cat. Now lets say that this cat of yours kills a mouse. Will you punish it for killing the mouse (maybe if it brought the mouse’s corpse into your home, sure, but for just killing it)? Most likely not.
Not a valid comparison. The Elder Dragons have armies, and champions to command those armies. They know where their armies will strike, what atrocities they will commit. This is not like a cat who goes off to return with a mouse. These minions work for their respective masters, and said masters are thus responsible for their actions.
A better comparison would be a president that sends an army to invade a country, and then hears how they killed a ton of innocent people… and then decides to let it slide.
Elder Dragons don’t seem to view the races as something on par to them.
Yet they use their champions to communicate with us, and tempt us to join them. Those two ideas directly contradict each other. If we’re not viewed on par with them, then they shouldn’t be trying to recruit us for their army.
No, I think they realize that we ARE on par with them (or we wouldn’t have defeated Zhaitan), but they do not care for our fate. I think that is blatantly obvious. And it would seem a bit silly to me, that you’d try and defend something that is pretty clearly indefensible.
And for what? Because we cannot communicate, essentially.
It also matters if they build societies. There’s a big difference between just animals, and creatures that have written languages, build cities and a vast culture. And even an Elder Dragon would know that…. if they cared.
Now consider this: we, as far as we know, cannot communicate with the Elder Dragons. They see themselves as above us. As far as we can tell, this is no different than a human treating a cow as beneath them. A mere resource.
It is different, as I outlined above. They recruit us don’t they? Also, we have no evidence as of yet, that they consider us as a resource, other than potential soldiers for their army.
If that’s the situation, is the Elder Dragon still “evil” for not stopping a pet from killing other animals?
Their not pets, they are armies, with a general directing them. Like for example, the Claw of Jormag, who bombards settlements with ice crystals, that then spawn Jormag’s minions.
I have presented evidence that points to the possibility of the contrary (about the “not natural”). So what if it was natural for the world to look that way?
An interesting idea, but impossible to prove I’m afraid. Regardless, even if the world used to look different, it by no means excuses evil acts. Because the races that now inhabit Tyria have no knowledge of the Tyria that was before (and why should it matter?). To change the planet back to what it was, for the mere sake of undoing change, while destroying all life in the process, is an outright evil act. Certainly someone as Zhaitan is aware that his corruption of the land, makes it inhabitable for the life that now inhabits the planet.
I’m still stuck on the fact that Mad feels killing off billions of smallpox viruses isn’t genocide because they’re not human, even though they are a racial group by definition of their classification. That’s like saying it’s okay to kill anything that’s not human simply because it’s not human.
Viruses are not a racial group. They are a collective of micro organisms. You need to read up on what genocide means. I’m not making up the definition of the word. Viruses do not fall under that definition.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
The Pale Tree also speaks of Tyria as if it is sentient. Just saying.
Well it’s possible. Would it always have been alive, or only after Zhaitan brought it back?
But can you prove that “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” wrong? That “dedicated minion of Zhaitan” held the most free will that we saw out of any minion thus far (sans some SoS leaders).
You do not need to prove that they wrong, the acts they commit are by definition wrong. If a violent killer goes on a shooting spree, do we need to look for his motives first, before we arrest him? Of course not.
There’s a very large difference between “draconic influence” and simply becoming evil.
I think that’s oversimplifying the Nightmare Court (even if they do seem like cliche villains).
Erm, no they don’t? If you’re referring to the Prophecies’ effect when near those two bloodstones, that’s due to the soul batteries.
The only thing I noticed is that the Bloodstone caves seemed to attract various creatures to it. But certainly not souls. We know that the Bloodstones themselves affect the environment around them in a variety of ways, depending on the Bloodstone. But yeah, Konig is right. Those were merely the Soul Batteries.
Now what I’m getting at about the bloodstones and souls, is that while magic is drawn to them (and subsequently channeled from them) from far distances, for them to have any grasp on souls, the soul would have to leave the body while on a bloodstone. This would mean that they both are similar powers, but different enough in nature and origin for the bloodstones to affect them differently.
What are you talking about? The Bloodstones do not have any grasp on souls. They do not do anything with souls. They just radiate, absorb and leak magic. I see no reason to assume that in the case of the Bloodstone at the caldera, it was doing anything more than just powering the place. Something dies on it, it absorbs the magic, and the soul batteries receive their power from the Bloodstone. Death simply releases magic. Which is why, as Konig pointed out before, we find places of power near places of death.
“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
you are still saying that we are on pair with the dragons, tho we are nothing compared to them, for all we know they could be recruting us out of passion and to protcet us from ourself there are alot of possiblety.
Is a groupe of wolfs on pair with any human? no they are not but hell they can kill off a human if they want to makeing your statment off us killing a elder dragon on pair with them invalide for given reasons.
and we have never communicated with any elder dragon but with there champions, and we dont even know if said champion, is a extinktion of the dragons body and there for cant go agienst its will or not.
you are despretly trying to set us on pair with the dragons and we are not even comparable, for all we know we are the evil once and they are the good once trying to save the planet.(look at the events done by charr, human and asura amoung other things)
Commander Korsbaek lvl 80 Guardian
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Ayano Yagami lvl 80 ele
Or, the Elder Dragons are maybe like the queen in a beehive or anthill, and as I said before; they need minions/workers to fully operate and feed themselves. Zhaitan needed corpses to make more minions, so it had to actively confront the living races to make more. If it didn’t, and it solely stuck to Orr, its food supply would slowly dwindle, and it would starve and send itself to hibernation to avoid death.
So the question is, is it wrong for a being to kill other beings if it was a question of survival?
The living races would never send their dead to Zhaitan, even if it played nice, and they would never send it magical artifacts to keep it sated. What was Zhaitan suppose to do? Just twiddle its thumbs in Arah, and go through the painful process of slowly dying of starvation, after it devoured all the magic Orr had to offer?
I’m still stuck on the fact that Mad feels killing off billions of smallpox viruses isn’t genocide because they’re not human, even though they are a racial group by definition of their classification. That’s like saying it’s okay to kill anything that’s not human simply because it’s not human.
Viruses are not a racial group. They are a collective of micro organisms. You need to read up on what genocide means. I’m not making up the definition of the word. Viruses do not fall under that definition.
I think you (and everyone else discussing here for that matter) must read upon definition of genocide and on the historical context in which this definition was made.
From the Genocide Convention as quoted by wiki: “any of the following acts committed with INTENT to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”- Intent in this definition is the most important word when talking about and proving a genocide. This is due to the fact that the concept of genocide was created after WWII as a response to be able to prevent and punish any action in a war comparable to the holocaust and this is why intent is the more important part of genocide than actual killings.
For example let me illustrate this by focusing on two groups of people that were killed in WWII due to Hitler, the first one being the Jews of which a few million were killed and the second one the Russian soldiers on the eastern front of whom 20 million were killed. The point here being that the eastern front should be considered more evil since many more had died, however there was no intent there ( on the front) to destroy the Russian nation and therefore can’t and isn’t considered genocide but a war as it always was. On the other hand the Jews are a totally different matter since there was clear intent of destruction of all the Jews as can be easily proved by all the propaganda the kittens had made in this direction.
Now you might say that the methods are different and more cruel with the holocaust, but looking from the point of international law, if the Russian soldiers were captured, poisoned and burned in the name of strategic advantage or psychological warfare or whatever it would still be war and even if the Jews were individually shot, while they were actively defending it would still be genocide.
Now moving on to the world of Tyria and the small-pox example.
I think it should be established, when applying the concept of genocide to Tyria, that the exact definition of genocide from real life is not sufficient, since it would only be applicable to Kyrta and Ebonhavke. Therefore in my opinion all the playable, lesser, elder, hostile and every other race that I am not aware of that shows some degrre of sentience (which include elder dragons) should be considered as if all were humans in rl international law.
Therefore it is much easier to prove a genocide, before an international court, on the elder dragons than the other way around, since during the personal story I heard many dialogues along the lines that all elder dragons should be destroyed. Whereas I heard no such thing from an elder dragon (correct me on this if I am wrong).
more in the next post—-
I also think that the small-pox example is rather good when comparing the elder dragons and races of Tyria with something in rl (from now on I will use word human as in real
life human, not Tyrian human, I will also consider small-pox as a rl counterpart to playable races).
Firstly because elder dragons like humans were on their respective domains since the beginning of time (when looking at a time-scale of humans and small-pox, since small-pox
specifically evolved to feast on humans) and are therefore much more evolved and intelligent, this difference is even so great that we simply don’t care about small-pox and
usually not even consider to consider them to be sentient or having a right to live.
Which brings me to my second point, we aren’t even bothered enough to kill small-pox 1 on 1 , despite having an immense strength advantage, but there are so many of them and
they are so irrelevant in small numbers that we create minions (vaccinations) that deal with them on their own (microscopic) domain. Just as elders dragons create minions
that deal with playable races so they are not bothered with that, although races of Tyria can easily kill an elder dragon when in larger numbers, just as small-pox can kill a
human. Funny note here vaccination are weakened versions of small-pox just as undead humans are weakened versions of humans. I can take this example even further by saying
that another human (Primordus) doesn’t want to curropt and just outright kills small organisms by antibiotics (destroyers).
Now by considering this analogy and not rendering it into obscurity can you seriously consider humans (elder dragons) evil because they don’t care what atrocities
vaccinations (their minions) might commit on small-pox (races of Tyria)?
And yes I know that small-pox are microscopic organism and that small-pox – human relations might not translate linearly to playable races – elder dragon relations (highly
philosophical question) but I still think this analogy shows the vast difference between races of Tyria and elder dragons. There is no proof of this, but it is hinted by the
sheer age of elder dragons and that is why I think it is worth considering this analogy, but you are free to refuse it.
PS. Mad Queen in my opinion you are, for the lack of better wording, overestimating the evilness of genocide, since you are portraying it as the highest evil possible,
whereas in reality for being convicted of genocide it is sufficient to held a few wrong speeches over radio and I can imagine far more evil things than that. What I think you
are referring to is mass killing or even simpler, a total war.
Elder Dragons don’t seem to view the races as something on par to them.
Yet they use their champions to communicate with us, and tempt us to join them. Those two ideas directly contradict each other. If we’re not viewed on par with them, then they shouldn’t be trying to recruit us for their army.
No, I think they realize that we ARE on par with them (or we wouldn’t have defeated Zhaitan), but they do not care for our fate. I think that is blatantly obvious. And it would seem a bit silly to me, that you’d try and defend something that is pretty clearly indefensible.
Just to point out one thing about this one. If you were a king and there was a war starting would you want those you felt were at your level, other royalty, or would you want people you felt were beneath you to do the fighting? Because kings of old used, for the large majority, peons who they felt were beneath them, hence why they were the king and the peons were just peons.
So just because the Elder Dragons use their champions to ‘recruit’ new members into their armies. It has little to nothing to do with them thinking we are on par with them and more than likely because they do think we are beneath them.
What if the dragons view us other races are mere ants, just in the way of their own plans and their old territory? That would open up a philosophical question.
The way the lore talks about them is they go through cycles of awaking and becoming dormant again. This is my own personal thoughts, what if when the Elder Dragons awake their over all motive isn’t to destroy all life but in their own way preserve it?
The way the lore comes off to me with their awaking cycle they might serve somewhat the same purpose the Reapers did in Mass Effect (without the whole machines turning on their creators and the world ending a red, blue or green explosion).
What if the Elder Dragons intentional or unintentional purpose is to wipe out the dormant life in Tryia leaving only a few behind and giving the chance for other life to flourish.
I know this isn’t going to be the case, they are evil and want to destroy, just a thought.
Mass Effect thing
80’s: Sylvari Necromancer (Main). Human: Thief, Warrior (PvP Main), Engineer. Charr Guardian