But there is a correlation between the Gods and Zhaïtan though.
I don’t remember where exactly I read it (GW1 Wiki, GW2 Wiki or the novels), but the gods actually decided to build Arah because there was an immense source of power there, not knowing it was Zhaïtan’s dormant power.
But there is a correlation between the Gods and Zhaïtan though.
I don’t remember where exactly I read it (GW1 Wiki, GW2 Wiki or the novels), but the gods actually decided to build Arah because there was an immense source of power there, not knowing it was Zhaïtan’s dormant power.
They settled in Tyria and build Arah because the Artesian Waters drew them there from across the Mists. They only unknowingly drew upon Zhaitan’s powers when they were tinkering with the Bloodstone, after they revoked the gift of magic. I’m sure if they knew an Elder Dragon was literally sleeping under their feets, they would have packed their bags and moved their humans somewhere else in Tyria.
But there is a correlation between the Gods and Zhaïtan though.
I don’t remember where exactly I read it (GW1 Wiki, GW2 Wiki or the novels), but the gods actually decided to build Arah because there was an immense source of power there, not knowing it was Zhaïtan’s dormant power.
sigh No. The power the Six Gods sensed and built (or rebuilt – implications imply the city was originally around before the Six Gods walked on Tyria) over the Artesian Waters. They later drew from Zhaitan to enhance the power of the Bloodstone, unknowing what the power they drew came from. It’s a common misunderstanding because you only get the Artesian Waters being what drew the gods during a single story step (Where you summon the Avatar of Grenth) – and after it is completed and you talk to Trahearne. Everywhere else just mentions that the Six Gods were drawn by power in Orr, which naturally people think is Zhaitan – partially thanks to a rather old (2009 iirc) interview by Jeff Grubb in which he stated that Orr is a place of power just like the Central Transfer Chamber.
Either way however, this is the only tie the Elder Dragons and the Six Gods have with each other. It’s a very old hypothesis that they’re tied, but it’s pretty much explicitly stated to not be so. Still, the hypothesis continues to show itself in the form of different people mentioning it.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
And you also have to have a human character talking about this with Trahearne in that step – or at least non-charr. Charr just spout their narrow-minded “hurr-durr, stupid gods” talk , of course.
Scarlet’s Alliance Wars(a.k.a. “Guild Wars 2”)
A fantasy of sci-fi cyborg implants grafted into the desiccated flesh of Guild Wars’ corpse.
“I don’t believe they’re gods, but they were certainly powerful.” Or something of the like. Humans and sylvari (unsure on norn and asura) do have the Artesian Waters dialogue instead.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I do apologize, Nicholas. You didn’t know you were opening a can of worms.
There are two theories in particular- that the Six are somehow inextricably tied to the dragons, and that the sylvari/Pale Tree are dragon minions- that produce a lot of rancor on this forum. They both go back to before launch, I believe, and they both for a while propagated wildly despite repeated efforts to point out that the evidence is wholly against them. This frustrated quite a few people here, and as a result we collectively have a tendency to come down with force on any hint that there might be a resurgence.
So again, I’m sorry. The effort here isn’t to shoot you down or snub you. It wasn’t meant personally is what I’m getting at; the problem is that you’ve just walked into the nearest thing we have to a minefield.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
That’s or Aaron. Its part of the territory. But I do believe that the Six Gods (including the Lyssa twins: Lyss and Llya http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa – counted as one apparently) are poorly developed Lore wise. And I do not agree with them being set aside and essentially put into the “too hard pile”.
The question of their association beings to the fore: what is the difference in power/divinity comparatively? Are the Six Gods that the humans worship equal to the Elder Dragons? Are they as I suggested the extension of the deities will or the creation of them?
While it may be true that the Gods came to Tyria through the Mists. Why did they come? What caused Abbadon to to turn against the others? Did the other 5 discover that it was Abbadon that gave Magic to the peoples of Tyria thus causing the rift? He was after all the God of among other things of Knowledge.
Its clear that these questions illuminate many important missing points of Lore.
That’s or Aaron. Its part of the territory. But I do believe that the Six Gods (including the Lyssa twins: Lyss and Llya http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa – counted as one apparently) are poorly developed Lore wise. And I do not agree with them being set aside and essentially put into the “too hard pile”.
The question of their association beings to the fore: what is the difference in power/divinity comparatively? Are the Six Gods that the humans worship equal to the Elder Dragons? Are they as I suggested the extension of the deities will or the creation of them?
While it may be true that the Gods came to Tyria through the Mists. Why did they come? What caused Abbadon to to turn against the others? Did the other 5 discover that it was Abbadon that gave Magic to the peoples of Tyria thus causing the rift? He was after all the God of among other things of Knowledge.
Its clear that these questions illuminate many important missing points of Lore.
“What caused Abbadon to to turn against the others? Did the other 5 discover that it was Abbadon that gave Magic to the peoples of Tyria thus causing the rift? He was after all the God of among other things of Knowledge.” – We know the answers to these questions, the wiki will enlighten you. (check the GW1 wiki as well).
There is no correlation between the dragons an the gods, so no they are not an extension or creation of their will…
Whilst where the gods came from is an extremely interesting matter it is unlikely to shed any light on anything. And lore-wise the gods are not poorly developed, it’s just the GW2 kind of spun a few things around in it’s attempt to make the game less human-centric and in the process downplays and sets aside the human gods.
… kind of. I still think there’s a lot more to that story that has been conveniently forgotten. “He threw a temper tantrum because other people took back his gifts” sounds like the victors writing history.
The asian documents, should they prove correct, would be much more satisfying, but I believe that we’ve never gotten 100% confirmation that they’re canon.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
… kind of. I still think there’s a lot more to that story that has been conveniently forgotten. “He threw a temper tantrum because other people took back his gifts” sounds like the victors writing history.
The asian documents, should they prove correct, would be much more satisfying, but I believe that we’ve never gotten 100% confirmation that they’re canon.
I feel like they are (here I mean should be) canon – mostly just because they sound rational and it would be odd for Anet to look back and try and think of a different reason for everything when something had already been written.
Whilst where the gods came from is an extremely interesting matter it is unlikely to shed any light on anything. And lore-wise the gods are not poorly developed, it’s just the GW2 kind of spun a few things around in it’s attempt to make the game less human-centric and in the process downplays and sets aside the human gods.
While I acknowledge that I should have re-read Guild Wars Wiki on some points I raised, I still hold that this above widely accept position is disagreeable to me.
Firstly if the Six Gods are major deities, comparable to the Elder Dragons:
They should not have been effective set to the side, to excuse their action of reducing humanity to a rump of their former strength in Tyria! This is with little doubt the writers intention!
While I will not go into other points of Lore that connect with this such as the Foefire and the Ascalonian exodus to Kryta. It is clear that Humanity is more vulnerable than most would assume. Now more than ever Humanity needs every advantage available – they can’t even secure their lands from the centaurs effectively. And are bearly holding on to their last portion of Tyria (Note my Edonhawke post).
I believe that the Six Gods&Goddess of Tyria should make their presence felt more in some way that would measurable aid Humanity recover some respect. The Lore at present, I believe has gone way too far against them.
The gods had already left Tyria before the events of GW1… I think it’s sort of suggested that with the threat of the Elder Dragons there’s even less reason for the gods to become present once again. You should also consider that the writers have put humanity in a place where they have to stand up on their own two feet, rather than rely on all-powerful deities to fix their problems for them. The writers have done what is necessary to put all of the races on an even footing importance-wise and whilst I definitely think they shouldn’t discount revealing new information about the gods I don’t disagree with the direction they took.
To be honest, I do. Equality is admirable, but it should come primarily from raising the other races to the existing standard, not by gimping the fanbase’s favorite race- and certainly not by gimping them with no explanation. And it just stings all the more because they failed in their aim. Instead of human dominance, we now have charr and asura dominance. Bad enough that they excised some of the most interesting parts of the setting, but we’re also deprived of the mollification that would have come if ANet had succeeded.
I try very hard not to be bitter about this game, but I cannot dispute that they dropped the ball when it came to existing human lore.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(If this reads a bit like a ramble, please bear with me; my reasoning isn’t one developed line of thought but rather a heap of independent evidence and comparisons.)
They’re at least on an even foot with the other races magically, and they’re decades ahead in technology. If you look at the Pact, their contributions are at the very least the most visible. The civilized centers of Tyria are tied together only by asura tech, which the asura jealously maintain control of. Every weapon we had that was capable of harming Zhaitan was asuran. While there had have to be huge and multitudinous changes to the circumstances of the other three races if they’re ever to get a shot at ruling the continent, the charr and asura are each only one problem away from it.
To go back to what I was saying last post, those two races were raised to the point that humanity held in the last game, but instead of doing the same for the norn and sylvari they wrecked humanity and then left all three to wither in shade, as it were.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
Personally I feel like the Sylvari get put on a bit of a pedestal. But I maybe just think that because I love them so much
The Sylvari after all are arguably the most tied to the battle against Zhaitain – considering the Sylvari PC gets a direct Wyld Hunt to kill him.
(If this reads a bit like a ramble, please bear with me; my reasoning isn’t one developed line of thought but rather a heap of independent evidence and comparisons.)
They’re at least on an even foot with the other races magically, and they’re decades ahead in technology. If you look at the Pact, their contributions are at the very least the most visible. The civilized centers of Tyria are tied together only by asura tech, which the asura jealously maintain control of. Every weapon we had that was capable of harming Zhaitan was asuran. While there had have to be huge and multitudinous changes to the circumstances of the other three races if they’re ever to get a shot at ruling the continent, the charr and asura are each only one problem away from it.
To go back to what I was saying last post, those two races were raised to the point that humanity held in the last game, but instead of doing the same for the norn and sylvari they wrecked humanity and then left all three to wither in shade, as it were.
I totally agree with Aaron on this. I should also note that the writers seem to have a short memory in terms of the Norn. Why is the Tier 3 Cultural Heavy armor a Stag design? It should be Bear. Its common to hear the Norn shout: “By the Bear” especially around Hoelbrak.
But back on topic. Humanity is obviously way behind both the Asura and the Charr. And this stems from side-lining the Six Gods&Goddess. That actually is fact. Without these deities the Human Lore becomes devoid of any color and staves creativity in terms of ploy and story options that would be of continental importance. This is also fact.
While I’m not saying that Humanity should ever become dependant on their deities their situation is Dire it can be little worst. Their apparent lack of technology makes me seriously question how they built Divinity’s Reach! In all honesty I do not believe the city can exist based on existing Lore.
For Divinity’s Reach to be built by Humanity for Humanity their level of technology has to be much, much more visually obvious. At this point it time the is not sufficient evidence of it. At this point of time I believe that it could be argued that the city is a mesmeric illusion casted and powered by Queen Jennah.
I do agree that humans should be shown to be will and able to proper on their own without active interference from their deities but they current are not worthy of any respect by either the Charr or the Asura and especially not the Alliances that are now causing pain to all. And so agree with the current story direction cannot be acceptable by any fan of Humanity in Tyria(Ascalon/Kryta/Orr) at this time.
I’d argue that the cultural diversity of humanity would’ve been enough that their flavor could’ve survived… but of course that’s now gone for the foreseeable future too.
Divinity’s Reach doesn’t really bother me. Humans have always been talented at construction, especially the construction of walls. The problem there is that other races’ developments look to be making walls obsolete. At this point deus ex machina is the only chance they have to be restored to prominence.
Or the iron fist of the Dragon Empire. I could live with either.
Personally I feel like the Sylvari get put on a bit of a pedestal. But I maybe just think that because I love them so much
The Sylvari after all are arguably the most tied to the battle against Zhaitain – considering the Sylvari PC gets a direct Wyld Hunt to kill him.
I feel ya. I’m proud to say that my main is a salad, and their storyline just flows the best, both because they’ve got Zhaitan on their mind from word go and because they got to see the whole of Trahearne’s story. The race as a whole has the best motivation to go after Zhaitan, and many of the most prominent individuals in that fight are sylvari… but we don’t see that motivation translate into contribution. The only thing the race as a whole is able to bring to the fight is a unit that is safely expendable. Of the races who need it, though, I believe the sylvari are the only ones who will see a prominence boost. As soon as the devs tire of the “new kid on the block” excuse that’s currently holding them back, I have every hope that we’ll see something truly interesting come of them.
Which will promptly send the forums into convulsions of sylvari hate once more. Can’t win them all.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
… kind of. I still think there’s a lot more to that story that has been conveniently forgotten. “He threw a temper tantrum because other people took back his gifts” sounds like the victors writing history.
The asian documents, should they prove correct, would be much more satisfying, but I believe that we’ve never gotten 100% confirmation that they’re canon.
I feel like they are (here I mean should be) canon – mostly just because they sound rational and it would be odd for Anet to look back and try and think of a different reason for everything when something had already been written.
I agree FlamingFoxx, sadly it would seem that ArenaNet has written two separate lores for the game series – having spoken to a guild member who’s part of the Chinese community about the topic a bit, I have learned that a lot of elements are downplayed in China’s version of the game, or outright altered/removed. For example, the notion of sylvari sexuality is downplayed greatly – to the point where, for example, Caithe and Faolain are not lovers.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I agree FlamingFoxx, sadly it would seem that ArenaNet has written two separate lores for the game series – having spoken to a guild member who’s part of the Chinese community about the topic a bit, I have learned that a lot of elements are downplayed in China’s version of the game, or outright altered/removed. For example, the notion of sylvari sexuality is downplayed greatly – to the point where, for example, Caithe and Faolain are not lovers.
I wouldn’t be surprised given the number of restrictions and outright ban-able material they screen for. It’s a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get to China’s large online gamer market.
I wonder though. How do they explain Faolain’s obsession with Caithe over there? That she’s a really clingy ex-“best friend”? Wow, they probably had to change her nickname for Caithe too. It’s hard not to be a little suggestive when you’re calling someone else “dear heart”.
Unfortunately that is what happens when you try and release something in a country full of censorship that has very different ideals to the western world >.>
Personally I would never have release the game if it required compromising what had been built. But of course companies exist for profit, not to maintain creative integrity. Oh well…
Btw the last three post don’t belong to this subject matter that I started.
Not counting your own posts, the last eight posts were off subject. I doesn’t matter much in the end though, since we already answered your question from the OP. There are no known ties between the Elder Dragons and the Six.
Not counting your own posts, the last eight posts were off subject. I doesn’t matter much in the end though, since we already answered your question from the OP. There are no known ties between the Elder Dragons and the Six.
I am well aware that there is currently to existing connection between the two groups of deities. However since both groups have significant levels of divinity and both have made their presence known in Tyria both should know of the other and would have some interaction/communication with each other either as individuals or as a group.
I would assume both are true. The fact that the writers apparently have not revealed any connection is a deliberate move. And I believe that it is because they want to keep Humanity weak as a race and in GW2 Lore terms. Others may argue that this is without merit – I would strongly challenge them on this.
If the connection is made formal then the Lore will change to give Humanity a high status than at present. It is clear that the Elder Dragons every move have resulted either directly or indirectly in the weakening of Humanity’s grip on Tyria.
This Reality would have been noted by the Six Gods&Goddess and they would have acted accordingly. Note that Komir now the Goddess of Truth (including: Secrets and Knowledge) is a former human.
Thus while they as a group may well have elected to take a more hands-off approach to the proceedings since the movements of the races are temporary in terms of the perspective – Komir would not allow the present situation to stand.
She of course would not make the same mistake as Abbadon and act alone. She would present her case to the other five and force them to see the situation differently – and act.
The Elder Dragons are not divine in any way. And the Six Gods were only on Tyria while the Elder Dragons slumbered so there’s nothing to reason that the Elder Dragons know of the Six Gods beyond the knowledge of the minions they corrupt – which would to them be little more than worshiping bodiless ideas given that no minion known is from a time that actually saw the Six Gods (the only known entity to be that old and close to dragon minions is Malchor whom is not corrupt).
Furthermore, the Six Gods didn’t even know of Zhaitan (or at least that Zhaitan was the power source they drew from) when they drew power from him, and there’s nothing to argue that they knew of any of the Elder Dragons.
Just because the two groups are very powerful and lived on the same world doesn’t mean they knew of each other – the Six Gods may have known of the Elder Dragons through the Forgotten and Glint, possibly dwarves too, but hardly
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Arguably, the two aren’t incompatible- it’s perfectly possible for the devs to write the gods out in a way that makes sense within the lore. I know that when this has come in the past two of the ideas that gained much traction were that the dragons could be capable of consuming the gods, which would give the deities plenty of reason to stay away, and that even if the gods did get involved the amount of destruction their battle would cause would make their goal self-defeating (the same reason the Valar were unwilling to war with Morgoth a second time in The Silmarillion, for you Tolkien fans). There’s a common thread between the two- as long as the gods getting involved would actually make matters worse, there’s a solid reason for them not to become involved. There’re also theories drifting around that the gods may be dealing with a more pressing threat elsewhere, though I think that would create more narrative difficulties than it would solve.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The Elder Dragons are not divine in any way. And the Six Gods were only on Tyria while the Elder Dragons slumbered so there’s nothing to reason that the Elder Dragons know of the Six Gods beyond the knowledge of the minions they corrupt – which would to them be little more than worshiping bodiless ideas given that no minion known is from a time that actually saw the Six Gods (the only known entity to be that old and close to dragon minions is Malchor whom is not corrupt).
Furthermore, the Six Gods didn’t even know of Zhaitan (or at least that Zhaitan was the power source they drew from) when they drew power from him, and there’s nothing to argue that they knew of any of the Elder Dragons.
I wouldn’t go that far… while they may not have seen the gods themselves, most of Zhaitan’s Orrians are from a time when their avatars frequently put in appearances. I doubt he’d write them off the way the sylvari supposedly do- he just would see no reason to pay them any heed as long as they stayed away doing whatever it is they’re doing now. The other dragons, though, are another story.
Loathe as I am to bring it up, Angel’s follow-up does give us reason to believe that the gods knew about the dragons- specifically the “the reality was that the dragons had gone back to sleep, and the gods felt it was safe to begin returning magic stored in the Bloodstone to Tyria.” part. Even if you choose to ignore the way the ideas are paired, the “felt it was safe” part indicates that the gods had a fairly good grasp on the fact that there were reasons it may have been a bad idea. It makes sense, too- a good deal of the dragon lore in the game comes from Arah explorable, which is more or less doing the same research as the gods did while they were around. All that begs the question, though: if the gods knew, why didn’t they give any warning?
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I don’t understand how the Gods could have NOT known.
The Forgotten were devout followers of the gods and they certainly knew about the dragons. Then there’s glint and the fact that they removed her corruption.
So yeah, the gods had to have had SOME idea about the dragons…
It makes sense, too- a good deal of the dragon lore in the game comes from Arah explorable, which is more or less doing the same research as the gods did while they were around.
Technically, false. Most of the dragon lore comes through the Durmand Priory who have learned it via dwarven and jotun legends. Arah explorable mainly tell us about the surviving races, though a bit in relation to the Elder Dragons via “how they survived” (exception being the jotun which is “what they learned about the ED from their studies”).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Fair enough. But they still gathered artifacts relating to how three of the races handled the dragons, on the site a fourth used for their solutions. They’re also known to have had followers among at least two of the five races that we know survived the dragons. I just don’t see how they could have no idea at all about the dragons… though I could see them suffering from some false assumptions or misconceptions. That they didn’t have a contingency placed could mean that they didn’t expect the dragons would rise again.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
I would be simple, actually. The objects they collected themselves do not speak about the Elder Dragons. One is about mursaat magic which is not directly tied to the dragons, the other is a telescope which again is not directly tied to the dragons, and the third was a giant stone of magic which again is not directly tied to the dragon. They would need to acquire spoken or written knowledge about the Elder Dragons for them to tie those artifacts to the Elder Dragons – we now of their ties to the ED because the Priory had found such knowledge.
In regards to the races telling the Six of the Elder Dragons or not… well, what if they didn’t tell the Six Gods of them? We don’t know when nor why the dwarves began worshiping the Six, whomever said they had a chance before the Elder Dragons fell into myth? Though the jotun have a claim to have been once worshipers of the Six, we don’t know if this true and if so if they had retained non-mythological knowledge of the dragons. With Glint, she lied to humanity about what she was, why wouldn’t she lie to the gods? The Forgotten too lied about Glint to humanity, so they may have to the gods – we don’t know if they’d tell the truth and the full truth at that.
So we cannot assume that the Six Gods knew about the full case of the artifacts or of the Elder Dragons just because the Forgotten and Dwarves worshiped them.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
