Guild Wars 2

The timeline doesn’t add up. Why Glint not tell me, my gw1 character, how to become exalted? Or may be my character is the first exalted and their leader.

Zayd Akira.1942:

Just gonna put this here; It’s from the “tarir city” post in HoT gen forum.
…

I really like this theory.
Moreover, we know several Mursaats survived from the War in Kryta so maybe we will meet some of them in Maguuma Wastes or… near from a Bloodstone part?

Anet said to have plans for the Bloodstone in future expansions and that’s exactly in what we are But I’m pretty sure there’s a relation between Exalted and Mursaats even if it’s not a “DNA relation”.

If the exalted are “effectively immortal” due to being made of eldritch energy, why did they need to hibernate?

DarcShriek.5829:

If the exalted are “effectively immortal” due to being made of eldritch energy, why did they need to hibernate?

As mentioned in the article, to conserve the magical energy they’d gathered for future use.

lordkrall.7241:

So the knowledge, that existed in people that were PRESENT during the whole deal, was lost?

Clearly Glint at the very least had this knowledge.

Of course she had the knowledge. But the reason why she kept it a secret is not at all relevant to this discussion, or is it? I realize you’re trying to tell me that if this could be kept from becoming known, the same could be true for the creation of the Exalted. However, I find the assumption to be quite cheesy considering that Glint appears to have explicitly sent the Forgotten in order to look for volunteers. You don’t do that in secret.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Uh… you need to replay Prophecies.

No, I don’t. Perhaps you mistake me for thinking they weren’t servants of Glint, which I don’t. It just annoys me that the Exalted blogpost ties them entirely to Glint and doesn’t mention the gods as their actual masters at all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I believe that Agroman refers to the dialogue of this quest. Though it doesn’t really state what he’s claiming.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Keep in mind that two groups of humans attempted to Ascend after Turai and before our PCs in GW1.

And we don’t know who they were.

It’s hinted that they were Ascalonians and the Seekers, but who are the Seekers? We still don’t know.

I forgot about these groups, admittedly. But that doesn’t change the point that knowledge about the continued existence of the forgotten was pretty much lost to humanity 300 years ago and that collides with the idea of Glint sending the Forgotten on a mission to find human volunteers (except if we continue to assume that she restricted them to a specific splinter group of humans within the Crystal Desert at some point, and as I said, it doesn’t sound like that was the specific idea behind it).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Most likely happened after Prophecies’ events.

Anet likes to round things, so them rounding to “300 years” instead of saying “256 years” is understandable. Not desired, can be confusing to those who don’t remember their love of rounding, but understandable.

That’s something I didn’t consider, honestly. All this happening after Prophecies would indeed make the whole thing a bit more plausible.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

10,000 BE according to the Priory’s best guesses. But evidence actually points to it being circa 2,000 BE.

Source? Certainly this has been brought up before, but I haven’t read it yet.

See attached for what we saw in-game as a city of gold.

There’s no mention of the Musaat having a city of gold. What has been mentioned is that have a city of white alabaster with gold filigree. It’s look similar to the Chapel of Naples.

http://64.25.35.116/gameplay/exploring/tyria/story/lore-10-protectorsofkryta1.php

It has also been mentioned in the wiki that the Mursaat and White Mantle have a location around the Isle of Janthir.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Janthir
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isles_of_Janthir

Mursaat structures through Guild Wars have looked like the following:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Onyx_Gate

Aside from there being no mention of the Mursaat having a city of gold, there has been no mention of them even being in the Maguuma Jungle.

The hypothesis I made about Saul mistaken the Mursaat as the Exalted comes from Saul’s lore.

After he was exiled from Kryta he wandered into the Maguuma Jungle for days eventually finding a grand city in the thick forest itself. Exploring the place he meet Winged beings that spoke left melodius sounds.

Saul attempted to find this city again after he formed the White Mantle but never found it this City.

of course as Saul’s lore mentioned he was slightly out of his mind during that time due to constantly wandering the forests surviving on little amount of food and water and didn’t know if what he was seeing was a illusion or reality.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Saul_D%27Alessio

Doug Whisper.2465:

The timeline doesn’t add up. Why Glint not tell me, my gw1 character, how to become exalted? Or may be my character is the first exalted and their leader.

Because the one and only thing Glint talked about in GW1 was the Flameseeker Prophecies which is 100% irrelevant to the Elder Dragons.

Agroman.7190:

Of course she had the knowledge. But the reason why she kept it a secret is not at all relevant to this discussion, or is it? I realize you’re trying to tell me that if this could be kept from becoming known, the same could be true for the creation of the Exalted. However, I find the assumption to be quite cheesy considering that Glint appears to have explicitly sent the Forgotten in order to look for volunteers. You don’t do that in secret.

Unless you don’t want your goal to be jeapordized and it becoming known would do just that.

Then again, we don’t know all there is about Tyrian history – even in the past 250 years. So who’s to say this isn’t as widely known as the existence of the Zephyrites before we learned about them? Or Mordremoth.

When you’re sticking to a single location, you’re going to have to create new stuff or it’ll become a stale story. And when you create new stuff, it’ll be filling in gaps the audience previously didn’t know – whether the characters knew or not is entirely up to the writing team; and no, that’s not always bad story writing.

Agroman.7190:

No, I don’t. Perhaps you mistake me for thinking they weren’t servants of Glint, which I don’t. It just annoys me that the Exalted blogpost ties them entirely to Glint and doesn’t mention the gods as their actual masters at all.

Why would the Six Gods be mentioned?

The blog post wasn’t about the Forgotten. It was about the Exalted.

It wasn’t the Six who worked with the Forgotten to build this counter-measure. It was Glint. The Six were already distancing themselves from the world by this point.

Agroman.7190:

I forgot about these groups, admittedly. But that doesn’t change the point that knowledge about the continued existence of the forgotten was pretty much lost to humanity 300 years ago and that collides with the idea of Glint sending the Forgotten on a mission to find human volunteers (except if we continue to assume that she restricted them to a specific splinter group of humans within the Crystal Desert at some point, and as I said, it doesn’t sound like that was the specific idea behind it).

Here’s a question for you:

If the existence of the Forgotten was forgotten completely by humanity in 1028 AE (exactly 300 years prior to HoT), then why does a document written in 1071-1072 AE (before Prophecies’ main story but after the Cataclysm in 1071) mention them?

Keep in mind that our very first knowledge of the Forgotten – as full of holes as it may be even during GW1’s time – was written less than a year before the main game (post-Searing) – and over a year after the tutorial of the main game (pre-Searing).

With that in mind, it’s pretty obvious that the term Forgotten was not about forgetting their existence, but what the race called themselves. Though it’s known that at least Elonians of ~200 years prior to GW1 didn’t know what Forgotten looked like, that doesn’t mean the Elonians didn’t know Forgotten existed or what their culture was.

So to say that their existence was forgotten 300 years prior to GW2 is… false.

Agroman.7190:

Source? Certainly this has been brought up before, but I haven’t read it yet.

Source on which – that the 10,000 date is Priory speculation, or that there’s evidence for the previous dragonrise to be 2,000 BE?

Either way, there’s a lot of sources in both. But the main three for the latter are:

• GW1’s timeline which states the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE – while not directly supported in GW2, The Forgotten Not Forgotten which was added in Season 2 does indicate all other origins-knowledge of the Forgotten still hold true (the race came from the Mists in service to the gods).
• Bad Blood – during which Sieran mentions the oldest dwarven structures are “over 2,000 years old” (e.g., circa 1,000 BE). An odd way to say they’re over 11,000 years old if the previous dragonrise, in which the dwarves lived, was 10,000 BE.
• Return to Camp Resolve – in which Eir states Glint had 3,000 years of memory; supplemented by Glint’s line in Edge of Destiny page 338 that she was placed as guardian of the world 3,000 years prior.

All claims that the previous dragonrise was in 10,000 BE is done by Priory scholars. But we know they’re not always correct. Most likely that was simply a dragonrise.

Also, it would be weird for the jotun to have knowledge of multiple dragonrises – implying surviving more than just the previous, which would place their species at being over 30,000 years old.

The whole expansion had its exposition spoiled. But it doesn’t didnt have its content spoiled entirely.

We don’t know what happens when glints egg gets to the city.

We don’t know if magic is an infinite resource. How fun it would be to find out that killing an elder dragon is harming the planet.

We don’t know how magic actually works. The professions might actually be explained.

And best of all there is a potential for actual writing that had consequences.

We actually know that magic is a finite resource. This was explained in the asura chapter 3 storyline’s main dialogue. And further in Hidden Arcana’s side dialogue. We also know that killing the Elder Dragons will be long-term bad for the world, per Hidden Arcana’s side dialogues.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We actually know that magic is a finite resource. This was explained in the asura chapter 3 storyline’s main dialogue. And further in Hidden Arcana’s side dialogue. We also know that killing the Elder Dragons will be long-term bad for the world, per Hidden Arcana’s side dialogues.

Not really. The implications was that magic levels were balanced. Not that it was finite. Finite implies that the leylines don’t draw magic in from the Mists. And the ED consume it but they don’t process it like water/ore/tumber.

Shevek.2691:

DarcShriek.5829:

If the exalted are “effectively immortal” due to being made of eldritch energy, why did they need to hibernate?

As mentioned in the article, to conserve the magical energy they’d gathered for future use.

But they have enough energy to live forever. Why would they need to conserve? They don’t leak naturally if they’re immortal. A need to conserve would imply mortality. This contradicts the effectively immortal description.

Keep in mind the Exalted body is pure magic so maybe if they use Magic they will be spending their own life force to use that magic.

As a being of pure magical energy that uses magical energy to perform their strong magical abilities it is most likely the risk of spending too much magical energy may result in the Exalted to die from loss of magical energy.

EdwinLi.1284:

Keep in mind the Exalted body is pure magic so maybe if they use Magic they will be spending their own life force to use that magic.

As a being of pure magical energy that uses magical energy to perform their strong magical abilities it is most likely the risk of spending too much magical energy may result in the Exalted to die from loss of magical energy.

Keep in mind that if they can use up their own life force, then they are not effectively immortal.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Not really. The implications was that magic levels were balanced. Not that it was finite. Finite implies that the leylines don’t draw magic in from the Mists. And the ED consume it but they don’t process it like water/ore/tumber.

Er… The fact that magic can be balanced indicates that it is not infinite.

In this case, “balanced” means that the quantity remains within a certain amount. E.g., 1-10. When magic hits 1, dragons go to sleep and radiate it back out. When it hits 10, dragons wake up and consume it.

Infinite does not exist within these numbers, so if magic were infinite then we could lower the quantity down to 1, let alone 10.

And the Elder Dragons do “process” it in a way. They exude magic as they sleep.

DarcShriek.5829:

But they have enough energy to live forever. Why would they need to conserve? They don’t leak naturally if they’re immortal. A need to conserve would imply mortality. This contradicts the effectively immortal description.

Because they are preparing to house a magic eating dragon and will need something to feed it. And while they are immortal the energy needed to maintain the city has to come from somewhere.

It is just easier to go dormant until the dragon arrives than waste energy fighting off possible attackers when it isn’t necessary.

Hey Joe, I know how we can keep people from attacking our city. We can just go to sleep.

Seriously? These exalted smell of BS.

If you were a potential enemy, specifically a MAGIC EATING DRAGON enemy, what would you consider a more appealing target? Some old ruins with no life in it or a golden city pulsating with active magic and inhabited by beings composed of living magical energy?

DarcShriek.5829:

Keep in mind that if they can use up their own life force, then they are not effectively immortal.

As the lore mentioned they are only Immortal by being unable to age, die of age, nor die from lack of food and water.

Exalted can still die by fatal wounds or losing all their magical energy that is used to maintain their body.

Their immortal stats is only given by maintaining their magical energy in their body to maintain their forms. Without that magical energy they will die so hibernation may be one way to maintain their magical energy.

EdwinLi.1284:

The hypothesis I made about Saul mistaken the Mursaat as the Exalted comes from Saul’s lore.

After he was exiled from Kryta he wandered into the Maguuma Jungle for days eventually finding a grand city in the thick forest itself. Exploring the place he meet Winged beings that spoke left melodius sounds.

Saul attempted to find this city again after he formed the White Mantle but never found it this City.

of course as Saul’s lore mentioned he was slightly out of his mind during that time due to constantly wandering the forests surviving on little amount of food and water and didn’t know if what he was seeing was a illusion or reality.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Saul_D%27Alessio

Sorry but this Article doesn’t mention the Maguuma Jungle. It mentions that he was exiled, send somewhere and found a City in a Forest. If he had found it in Maguuma, the Article would’ve told it. It could be that he found the Mursaat in the Woodland Cascades, which is far North and closer to the Isles of Janthir ( which could also be Mursaatr related )

Mara.6782:

They are almost like these http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enchanted_armor

Yep. Just makes me think that the whole visual design of the Exalted is one big troll on those wanting to see mursaat introduced into GW2. The notes on that wiki page specifically mention the visual similarities between the enchanted armor and mursaat. If people were already getting confused by that similarity what better way to troll people than make an upgraded version of the enchanted armor that’s golden, hovers above the ground, & has magic tendrils coming off its back?

Plagiarised.2865:

Really? There’s not enough mystery and unknown in the Guild Wars franchise? I heard some really weird comments on the lore, but that is just baffling.

Agreed, GW has a lot of big holes everywhere.

Agroman.7190:

What the kitten, ArenaNet. I really don’t see any good explanation for this. 300 years ago, the Forgotten had become a myth to most if not all of humanity. I wasn’t until the events of Prophecies that human civilization ran into them again (not counting Turai Ossa a few centuries before). So how is it that we never heard a word about this before? Sounds like another lore mess to me.

Probably one of those, join or die styles deals?

Mara.6782:

They are almost like these http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enchanted_armor

Likely. Forgotten and Mursaat were both ancient races, it’s similar to how it isn’t surprising to see a Charr use a Asuran Waypoint, or a Norn using a Charr rifle.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I mean judging by the fact that the Forgotten worked for Glint, who in turn predicted the fall of the Mursaat, I would say they aren’t exactly on friendly terms.

I don’t know, if someone were to predict that I’d be run over by a car one day I’d be very grateful and also look both ways before crossing the street.

Agroman.7190:

Sadly, I only have it in German so I cannot quote it adequately.

http://www.guildwars.com/en/download

lordkrall.7241:

So a race of hidden lizard-men with very little actual influence over the world being forgotten is used as an argument that massive EXTREMELY strong and dangerous mountain-range sized Dragons (which multiple creatures we actually talk with have faced) were not talked about?

Such as? The Forgotten and Seers are basically gone, the Mursaat weren’t interesting in chatting and both the Dwarves and Jotun clearly had relegated the Elder Dragons to myth and fable.

Plagiarised.2865:

Largely. There’s a difference between largely uninhabited and completely uninhabited. How many is ‘largely’ 90% 95% 99%? How many humans is 1%?

Completely if I recall. The only humans we meet in the desert are the ones we brought with us, all the rest are ghosts.

Shiren.9532:

In my mind all this time, the impressive people were the forgotten – not Glint. They were the ones with the power and knowledge to free a dragon champion. Glint may have decided to ally with the races of Tyria, but the forgotten were the ones that made that possible. It’s constantly portrayed now that the forgotten serve Glint rather than they were allies or liberators of her.

The Forgotten couldn’t beat the Elder Dragons. After freeing Glint and after her change of heart she was the one responsible for hiding the elder races and saving them (except the Mursaat who hide sort of in the mists). The Seers were responsible for the Bloodstones to save some magic from being consumed by the Elder Dragons. So it was largely a combined effort. That and Glint could see the future, so it would make sense for them to work for her for the greater good.

DarcShriek.5829:

Hey Joe, I know how we can keep people from attacking our city. We can just go to sleep.

Seriously? These exalted smell of BS.

Add some magic into it and it doesn’t seem too odd.

Well, now that we know that the Exalted are 100% in no way connected to the Mursaat, let’s put all our Mursaat hope eggs in another basket that comes in the form of the leftover scraps of information from the lore censored raid about a group of mysterious, highly organized, and powerful bandits hiding out in the jungle.

Years after Prophecies warned us about the dangers of worshipping glowy floaty false gods, we get these glowy floaty goody-two-shoes Exalted.

Our GW1 characters must be spinning like dervishes in their graves.

So, we have Exalted information now! I have some mixed feelings. On the one hand, lore! On the other hand, as people have said, it possibly would have been better to leave the mystery a bit longer.

On the gripping hand, this is probably stuff that our characters should have been able to find out beforehand by talking to the Zephyrites, or further investigating the golden cave after defeating the Shadow of the Dragon (which might be where Caithe got the idea to steal the egg in the first place – she knows where the Zephyrites were taking it).

I’ll have to admit to a certain schadenfreude at the mursaat theory getting Jossed. Since the sylvari reveal, bandwagon theories with reasons for doubt, including the Exalted=mursaat theory, have been being granted far too much credibility. Hopefully, this will mean a bit more balance for those looking to inject some healthy scepticism.

The theory that Tarir might actually be the city that Saul first discovered, and the mursaat co-opted it due to visual similarity (the Exalted do have a family resemblance to the Enchanted, as had been pointed out previously, and the mursaat and Enchanted have been believed to be linked before) does seem to have some legs, though. In fact, it’s possible that this might explain this similarity – what if the mursaat knew that Saul had visited Tarir, and they deliberately wore similar outfits in order to fool Saul just long enough that they were themselves Exalted, before taking Saul away before he could reveal the deception? There is the hole that it seems unlikely that the Exalted would seek to be seen as gods, but that was possibly a misunderstanding on Saul’s part that the mursaat were all too happy to exploit. (This would also explain the similarity between the symbol on the door at the White Mantle symbol – Saul based the White Mantle symbol on the symbol of Tarir, and then the White Mantle was twisted into serving the mursaat instead.)

Regarding the confusion between the Forgotten serving Glint or the gods: I’m reminded of Ember’s line in Ghosts of Ascalon when asked what she would do if the interests of the Vigil and the Ash Legion clashed: “Fortunately, that has not happened”. There’s no conflict because from what we know, Glint and the gods were at least allied with compatible goals, so there is no conflict in the Forgotten serving both. In GW1 lore, Glint claimed to be the caretaker of Tyria on behalf of the gods – while this may be one of the things Glint lied about, it might even be that it’s simply a matter of Glint having been absorbed into the hierarchy that leads up to the gods, and asking whether the Forgotten are serving Glint or the gods is a bit like asking whether a British soldier in WW2 was serving General Montgomery or Churchill.

When it came to the Forgotten being in the jungle: We had hints back in GW1 that the Forgotten had once had a presence in the jungle, but had withdrawn. 300 years before GW2 (meaning 50 years before GW1) does seem to have them being in the jungle more recently than GW1 implied – but it was possible that they kept themselves hidden and didn’t reveal themselves to any humans that they hadn’t already chosen to become Exalted. It’s also worth remembering that during this time, Orr was still a functioning nation, and the nation most devout to the gods as well as being reasonably close to Forgotten holdings – it’s possible that the Forgotten primarily recruited from Orr and some Orrians knew this was happening, but it was kept secret from the other nations (which, at the time, were busy fighting the Guild Wars).

Part of me does feel that this would have been an opportunity to reintroduce the Forgotten in the flesh that has been missed, though.

Regarding the lack of any of Glint’s defenders when she died: It seems that Glint predicted her death, and may have ensured that all her servants (including the Exalted, the Forgotten, and the Zephyrites) were elsewhere so they didn’t die with her. This may have been a mistake, however: Glint didn’t seem to know in advance what plan Destiny’s Edge would have, just that she would die herself (which, in the book, happened before Kralkatorrik’s fate was resolved). If she had retained some of her defenders, she would have still died, but the battle as a whole could have had a very different outcome.

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, if someone were to predict that I’d be run over by a car one day I’d be very grateful and also look both ways before crossing the street.

In her dialog with us Glint calls the Mursaat a race of terrible and fearful spellcasters. Not really terms you would apply to your allies. Also Glint fully supported the players in their goal to defeat the Mursaat. While we see no active Mursaat vs Forgotten/Glint violence, I think it’s fair to say that those factions were atleast uneasy with another, if not outright enemies.

Edit: Also I think the Flameseeker prophecy is less like “hey watch out while crossing the street!” but more like you watch a strange video tape and suddenly you get a call that says “seven days.”

While reintroducing the Mursaat might have been lorebreaking, what we got was far worse: a race of glowing floating magical exalted goody-two-shoes Marty Stus.

It appears I stand corrected by Konig.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the confusion between the Forgotten serving Glint or the gods: I’m reminded of Ember’s line in Ghosts of Ascalon when asked what she would do if the interests of the Vigil and the Ash Legion clashed: “Fortunately, that has not happened”. There’s no conflict because from what we know, Glint and the gods were at least allied with compatible goals, so there is no conflict in the Forgotten serving both. In GW1 lore, Glint claimed to be the caretaker of Tyria on behalf of the gods – while this may be one of the things Glint lied about, it might even be that it’s simply a matter of Glint having been absorbed into the hierarchy that leads up to the gods, and asking whether the Forgotten are serving Glint or the gods is a bit like asking whether a British soldier in WW2 was serving General Montgomery or Churchill.

Well, I didn’t say that they didn’t serve both the gods and Glint. I was just annoyed that the gods weren’t mentioned at all. It’s true what Konig says, that they had already distanced themselves from the world, but at the time the Exalted were created, Glint was still serving the agenda of the six (or five, rather) gods along with the Forgotten.

On the other hand, I don’t think that Balthazar would approve of Glint’s goal of a peaceful future.

When it came to the Forgotten being in the jungle: We had hints back in GW1 that the Forgotten had once had a presence in the jungle, but had withdrawn. 300 years before GW2 (meaning 50 years before GW1) does seem to have them being in the jungle more recently than GW1 implied – but it was possible that they kept themselves hidden and didn’t reveal themselves to any humans that they hadn’t already chosen to become Exalted. It’s also worth remembering that during this time, Orr was still a functioning nation, and the nation most devout to the gods as well as being reasonably close to Forgotten holdings – it’s possible that the Forgotten primarily recruited from Orr and some Orrians knew this was happening, but it was kept secret from the other nations (which, at the time, were busy fighting the Guild Wars).

I like this theory very much. However, I see one big weakness within it – if we assume that the Orrians knew about the Exalted ‘project’, what would have stopped Zhaitan from using that knowledge extracted from Risen Orrians and sending his dragon champions after the sleeping Exalted, beings of pure magic?

Overall, the idea of creating beings of pure magic to fight Elder Dragons who feats upon magic seems a bit odd to me (and others who noted on this before).

Mike.7263:

While reintroducing the Mursaat might have been lorebreaking, what we got was far worse: a race of glowing floating magical exalted goody-two-shoes Marty Stus.

Considering we barely know anything about them other than their history and motives, it’s horribly early to start throwing “Mary Sue” around.

Agroman.7190

On the other hand, I don’t think that Balthazar would approve of Glint’s goal of a peaceful future.

Glint really only wanted the Elder Dragons to no longer be a threat. Even after their eventual defeat, I’m sure Balthazar would be happy as long as there is some sort of conflict in which the humans can prove their supremacy in.

DarcShriek.5829:

Hey Joe, I know how we can keep people from attacking our city. We can just go to sleep.

Seriously? These exalted smell of BS.

The article says that the Exalted had allies that weren’t there when they woke.

Meaning that they didn’t leave their city undefended. Though it ended up that way for reasons unknown.

Shiren.9532:

It also explains why the Exhaulted are so visually similar to Mursaat – ArenaNet may have wanted us to have the same impression that Saul did – they wanted us to think the Exhaulted were Mursaat, making Saul’s mistake more believable because we made the same one.

Physical similarity is already explained by the fact that the Enchanted armor were physically similar (particularly in helm, glove, and boot) to the mursaat. Reasons have been unknown for that for some time.

I don’t know why they chose gold, but appearance is likely based off of the Enchanted, not mursaat.

Shiren.9532:

Why would the Exhaulted help Saul? He was a gambler, a thief, a drunk and an outcast. He was exhiled from Kryta – blindfolded on a cart for three weeks and dumped before he wandered for four days before reaching the golden city. If the Exhaulted had no intention of intervening in the affairs of Saul, the White Mantle or the charr invasion, why did Saul think they would? Why didn’t the Exhaulted turn up at all at any point in the following conflict?

The Exalted are stated to be seeking a better world. They’re basically idealists, optimists, and overall kind people going off of the article.

How good of a person can you be if you ignore a starving, hallucinating man in dire need of help?

As for why they didn’t show up – maybe they finished their preparations and went into hibernation between the point of sending Saul back and the charr invasion happening in 1070 AE. Maybe they simply didn’t know – they’re not omniscient.

I personaly don`t like that reveal. It feels like an unnecessary addition to an already rich lore.

How are they more then tools for Glints revenge and by extension just better angels?
You know. Golden light, very powerfull and the only ones who can defeat the enemy, by being similiar?

By similiar I mean: EDs and Exalted are beings, confined to a construct/host body, who gather magic to survive and their purposes (abriged version, if we go witht the idea, that the ED energy is to some degree sentient or has a parasitic/symbiotic nature).

Why a complete new race which seems to have only one purpose? I don`t see them have more relevance, aside from this story.

Okay, they were sealed away in stasis… in the enemies territory… I really hope they explain that and how they didn`t become a tasty snack for Mordremoth, if they are brimming with magical energy.

Why couldn`t the Mursaat work? I mean, we have a 250 year difference. We have a group of only few survivors, but a ton of White Mantle loyal followers. The ability to hide in a different dimension. A big hate against everything ED (btw. these guys are better dragonhunters, than the ones we got). Have them make a big White Mantle army hidden and pop them out now, where they can establish a foothold, by smiting the evil Sylvari.
Two factions with backstory integrated with one swoop, but no, we need new magic protos angels.

While they pose some very interesting possibilties, like proposing connections to other groups, who used similiar abilities. What else do they bring to the table, aside from being a possible sacrifice for our ED in the future?
The way they are described they are allready raising all kinds of flags.

I don`t know. I don´t dislike them, but there is a difference between with introducing something which could have potential vs. something that is allready planted and is known for having potential.

(also the white mantle mostly reduced to bandits is kinda sad. I hope they have some of their armor laying around.)

Erukk.1408:

Glint really only wanted the Elder Dragons to no longer be a threat. Even after their eventual defeat, I’m sure Balthazar would be happy as long as there is some sort of conflict in which the humans can prove their supremacy in.

If that were the case, yes. But the article states that a peaceful future is the goal.

Mursaat had a lot of problems. Not least being: Would we trust them? Humans really shouldn’t because of the whole Kryta thing, and due to the aftermath of that, the mursaat have no reason to like humans and every reason to want to see them harmed. It’d be Palawa Joko all over again, except that at least in Palawa’s case, we knew that Palawa would be just kittened if Nightfall wasn’t stopped as the rest of the world.

That isn’t the case with the mursaat. They’ve already abandoned their former allies before, taking their own escape route from the reach of the Elder Dragons. Why would they risk their remaining lives staying to help (former) enemies when they can just leave again? Assuming there are even enough of them left to matter?

(Which, of course, raises another problem: Enough of what we did in GW1 was undone or shown to be futile in GW2. Having the mursaat come back in number would be doing that all over again.)

I think the Mursaat should be kept mostly in the past. That doesn’t mean they would never appear, but they should, imo, appear in the same manner like Caithe’s Seeds: a flashback that brings new light.

I never really get the Mursaat hate. I mean did they actually do something that justified the entire genocide of their race?

Sure, they fled when the elder dragons awoke, they fled to save their people. You can say it’s cowardly sure, but how exactly does cowardice justify Glint’s revenge?

The whole revenge plot of Glint is just insane, make up a prophecy stating that the titans will kill the Mursaat, forcing the Mursaat to do everything in their power to again survive – which meant killing humans. I mean, even if the prophecy was an actual prophecy Glint could have you know… kept her mouth shut and the Mursaat wouldn’t have been any the wiser, probably just chilled in their pocket dimension and wouldn’t have tried to kill the chosen ones.

Then there’s the whole problem of the titans. Was it ever actually explained why the titans tried to kill the Mursaat? I mean Abaddon was evidently not a fan of the bloodstone concept (the same idea which the Mursaat had refused, choosing to keep their magic and flee). But regardless, should we really be allying with a Dragon who, just to get her genocidal jollies, creates a plan to set free the minions of an insane god? Surely that’s a worse crime? The titans didn’t just kill Mursaat, they killed humans and dwarves too. The Mursaat only killed, essentially, in their own self defence, Glint killed for revenge.

I mean jeez, if Glint is the kind of psychopath that the Forgotten and Seers want to ally with can you really blame the mursaat for bailing on them in the first place?

But sure, lets deliver Glints baby to her magically transformed death machines and kill the other Elder Dragons leaving baby glint to consume all the magic in the world!

We don’t know all the details, but before they fled they also waged war on the seers which they won as far as i know. Seems like a strange choice of action if you just want to run away to save yourself.

I would have prefered it, if they released the article a week or two after hot release, so that we could have met them ingame and doubt their claims^^

When it comes to forgotten recruiting humans for the exalted projekt don’t forget that the forgotten had connections with the order of whispers. The forgotten could have easily gotten the order to gather promising people in some secret place where the forgotten then perfomed the tests and rituals. Who knows, maybe some exalted are former whisper agents. Sounds like something like this would be right up their alley.

SoulyD.9125:

We don’t know all the details, but before they fled they also waged war on the seers which they won as far as i know. Seems like a strange choice of action if you just want to run away to save yourself.

The Seer/Mursaat war occurred after the Mursaat had fled. Maybe that was because of Glint’s thirst for blood too. Perhaps it was an attempt by the mursaat to free the magic that the Seers had taken from the world and hidden in the bloodstones, but that makes little sense as by the time of GW1 the Mursaat had won the war and yet they had kept them intact and were the ones protecting/using the bloodstones in the Maguuma and Fire Islands.

It doesn’t seem likely that the Mursaat really had any reason to return to this world, they only did so to stop the prophecy and save themselves. The Seers were most likely the instigators of the war.

Agroman.7190:

I like this theory very much. However, I see one big weakness within it – if we assume that the Orrians knew about the Exalted ‘project’, what would have stopped Zhaitan from using that knowledge extracted from Risen Orrians and sending his dragon champions after the sleeping Exalted, beings of pure magic?

Overall, the idea of creating beings of pure magic to fight Elder Dragons who feats upon magic seems a bit odd to me (and others who noted on this before).

What stopped Zhaitan from doing anything would be the amount of knowledge these orrians would have. I doubt they knew the whole plan, probably only knew (if they knew at all) about a ritual these forgotten put a few chosen ones through. Without knowing it’s purpose.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Not really. The implications was that magic levels were balanced. Not that it was finite. Finite implies that the leylines don’t draw magic in from the Mists. And the ED consume it but they don’t process it like water/ore/tumber.

Er… The fact that magic can be balanced indicates that it is not infinite.

In this case, “balanced” means that the quantity remains within a certain amount. E.g., 1-10. When magic hits 1, dragons go to sleep and radiate it back out. When it hits 10, dragons wake up and consume it.

Infinite does not exist within these numbers, so if magic were infinite then we could lower the quantity down to 1, let alone 10.

And the Elder Dragons do “process” it in a way. They exude magic as they sleep.

I’m sorry perhaps I didn’t explain properly.

You have resources like aluminum which are infinite because the can be recycled 99% and so for the lifetime of the universe we should always have aluminum.

Then you have resources like water. Processes like the water cycle exist. We have gone from high levels in the ice age and we can go to low levels if all the drinkable water in the world is used up. When an organism uses water it is almost permanently removed from the cycle.

Is magic like the former or the later.

Agroman.7190:

Erukk.1408:

Glint really only wanted the Elder Dragons to no longer be a threat. Even after their eventual defeat, I’m sure Balthazar would be happy as long as there is some sort of conflict in which the humans can prove their supremacy in.

If that were the case, yes. But the article states that a peaceful future is the goal.

A peaceful future might be the goal, but a truly peaceful future is also an unobtainable goal at the end of the day, because there is always going to be conflict in same way, shape, or form. I’m not sure if Balthazar would consider them humans still or not, but as long as they are winning all the wars, conflicts, or battles they are in, I doubt he would care what reasoning they are using to justice the violence.

Plus, they subscribe to Glint’s version of “securing” a peaceful future. While their end goal might be peace, love, harmony, friendship is magic, and all that jazz, Glint wasn’t above manipulation and killing/removing undesirables. She seemed, to me anyway, very much of the “For the Greater Good” mentality, and god forbid you or your whole race got in her way or kittened her off.

Another interesting point is that the Forgotten are included in the list of 5 races that worked on the Bloodstones to survive the last dragonrise. And the Forgotten are also stated to have arrived only 3,000 years ago or so.

If the last dragonrise was only 2,000 years ago, that means it roughly coincided with the appearance of humans in Cantha. 500 years after the rise would be their first appearance in the northern lands.

So, still going along with Konig’s time table, it may very well be that some of the Exalted were actually the hero’s from GW1. Obviously, they can’t have a character named after each of us that played GW1, but perhaps some of the other henchmen and heroes that don’t seem to have had much effect are the humans that were found worthy of becoming Exalted.

Swizzle.7982:

I never really get the Mursaat hate. I mean did they actually do something that justified the entire genocide of their race?

Sure, they fled when the elder dragons awoke, they fled to save their people. You can say it’s cowardly sure, but how exactly does cowardice justify Glint’s revenge?

The whole revenge plot of Glint is just insane, make up a prophecy stating that the titans will kill the Mursaat, forcing the Mursaat to do everything in their power to again survive – which meant killing humans. I mean, even if the prophecy was an actual prophecy Glint could have you know… kept her mouth shut and the Mursaat wouldn’t have been any the wiser, probably just chilled in their pocket dimension and wouldn’t have tried to kill the chosen ones.

Then there’s the whole problem of the titans. Was it ever actually explained why the titans tried to kill the Mursaat? I mean Abaddon was evidently not a fan of the bloodstone concept (the same idea which the Mursaat had refused, choosing to keep their magic and flee). But regardless, should we really be allying with a Dragon who, just to get her genocidal jollies, creates a plan to set free the minions of an insane god? Surely that’s a worse crime? The titans didn’t just kill Mursaat, they killed humans and dwarves too. The Mursaat only killed, essentially, in their own self defence, Glint killed for revenge.

I mean jeez, if Glint is the kind of psychopath that the Forgotten and Seers want to ally with can you really blame the mursaat for bailing on them in the first place?

But sure, lets deliver Glints baby to her magically transformed death machines and kill the other Elder Dragons leaving baby glint to consume all the magic in the world!

I don’t think there is really a “mursaat hate” as much as they ‘ve proven again and again to be untrustworthy allies. Let’s start with them almost completely erasing the seers from tyria, escaping into the mists to leave all others to fend for themselves, then trying to rule of the krytans, and slay them mercilessly if they choose not to worship them. Only to then attack kryta at full force beforefinally being beaten, and they sacrificed almost all of themselves to try and take ovr kryta, the final mursaat we know about swearing revenge upon us. So i can see why , considering their backstabby nature and very hostile history with humans, they wouldn’t be wanted as allies (especially against the very thing that made them turn their backs to their former allies in the first place)

Glint’s revenge? Mind for a source for that theory ? haven’t really come across anything about that.

Lost in Hyrule.2963:

So, still going along with Konig’s time table, it may very well be that some of the Exalted were actually the hero’s from GW1. Obviously, they can’t have a character named after each of us that played GW1, but perhaps some of the other henchmen and heroes that don’t seem to have had much effect are the humans that were found worthy of becoming Exalted.

Unless they’re doing an awful lot of rounding in that article, the “300 years ago” when the Exalted were created would have been 50 years before the events of GW1.

Shiren.9532:

Plenty of dwarves didn’t undergo the ritual – the ones that died before the ritual took place. With dwarves already serving Glint and the Rite of the Great Dwarf didn’t happen until years later, it’s easy to say “a number of the Brotherhood of the Dragon became Exhaulted and thus had nothing to do with the Rite of the Great Dwarf”.

Honestly this depends on how accurate that “300 years ago” was. It wouldn’t be the first time ArenaNet used “300 years ago” but meant “247 years ago”.

Just like they’ve used “250 years ago” but meant more along the lines of “211 years ago”. (Note: exact years pulled out of my rear end, but the general idea has been done).

But even if that isn’t the case – wouldn’t Glint, who’s working to counter the Elder Dragon*s* want to ensure that there’s maximum defense against Primordus, the first to awaken?

Maybe she intended for the Rite of the Great Dwarf to counter Primordus, while the Exalted were to have other fields. If so, why take resources away from one front for another in a war when you can take resources not being used for the war?

Supply distribution 101.

Shiren.9532:

Forgotten pop up whenever it’s convenient. It was established that humans didn’t even remember Forgotten during the events of Prophecies but this lore article states several of them ran into the Forgotten during the Exhaulted recruitment drive. Why not simply have a secret enclave of Forgotten, hiding away in Maguuma waiting for the day we arrive? MIA can also include “waiting in the city of Tarir”.

Humanity didn’t forget about the Forgotten’s existence. Rather, it’s that humanity lost the name of their race. The very first piece of Forgotten lore comes from the History of Tyria which was written by a human Orrian in 1071-1072 AE (prior to the events of Prophecies but after the Cataclysm). So clearly humanity knew about the Forgotten’s existence.

Just not their name or their exact appearance (the latter at least for Elonians during Turai’s time).

Shiren.9532:

Why did it have to be humans? Why did it even need to be a new faction (were they created to fit the story of being mistaken for Mursaat)?

Doubtful given that they resemble the Enchanted armors from GW1.

Mike.7263:

While reintroducing the Mursaat might have been lorebreaking, what we got was far worse: a race of glowing floating magical exalted goody-two-shoes Marty Stus.

Except that nothing says they’re perfect, therefore nothing says they’re Sues or Stus.

Agroman.7190:

I like this theory very much. However, I see one big weakness within it – if we assume that the Orrians knew about the Exalted ‘project’, what would have stopped Zhaitan from using that knowledge extracted from Risen Orrians and sending his dragon champions after the sleeping Exalted, beings of pure magic?

Overall, the idea of creating beings of pure magic to fight Elder Dragons who feats upon magic seems a bit odd to me (and others who noted on this before).

Why didn’t Zhaitan consume the magic from the Forgotten artifacts lying right under his nose in Arah?

People seem to be forgetting this very important fact: Forgotten magic is thus far immune to dragon consumption and corruption.

Jaken.6801:

By similiar I mean: EDs and Exalted are beings, confined to a construct/host body, who gather magic to survive and their purposes (abriged version, if we go witht the idea, that the ED energy is to some degree sentient or has a parasitic/symbiotic nature).

Why a complete new race which seems to have only one purpose? I don`t see them have more relevance, aside from this story.

I don’t think the Elder Dragons are constructs or pure energy like the Exalted.

Nor do the Exalted show any need of consuming magic to live, like dragons (not just Elder Dragons, but simply dragons).

Jaken.6801:

Okay, they were sealed away in stasis… in the enemies territory… I really hope they explain that and how they didn`t become a tasty snack for Mordremoth, if they are brimming with magical energy.

Everything related to the Forgotten has been immune to both consumption and corruption by the Elder Dragons.

What better place to store a weapon against the enemy then where it’ll wake up, when said weapon cannot be used by said enemy?

Though to be honest, they didn’t hibernate in enemy territory – per the post, they were meant to wake up before Mordremoth did.

Jaken.6801:

Why couldn`t the Mursaat work?

Because, despite people’s desires, they are selfish, evil kittens.

Last time the Elder Dragons woke up, they commited genocide and then fled the world. Last time they showed up they attempted genocide.

See a running trend yet?

They are your typical fantasy-based facist kingdom bent on killing or ruling everyone not themselves.

They’re not good guys. They never were.

Jaken.6801:

(also the white mantle mostly reduced to bandits is kinda sad. I hope they have some of their armor laying around.)

I think you misunderstand the White Mantle plot. They aren’t “reduced” to bandits, but play the role of bandits to hinder their enemies’ political popularity while their inside men (e.g., Caudecus and his cronies by all indication) work to establish their foothold.

Given all the dialogue, it’s actually indicated that most bandits don’t even realize they’re working for the White Mantle. The White Mantle funds the bandits, but are not the bandits – not in large, at least (bandit leaders may be, however).

Swizzle.7982:

I never really get the Mursaat hate. I mean did they actually do something that justified the entire genocide of their race?

Sure, they fled when the elder dragons awoke, they fled to save their people. You can say it’s cowardly sure, but how exactly does cowardice justify Glint’s revenge?

It’s one thing to flee the world when world-ending beings wake up.

It’s another thing to have the greatest offense and defense against the dragons, to bring a race to near extinction, and then flee the world.

The mursaat aren’t guilty of cowardice. They’re guilty of treachery and genocide. Multiple times – because the moment they returned to the world, they just did the same thing again: attempt genocide and be treacherous.

Swizzle.7982:

I mean, even if the prophecy was an actual prophecy Glint could have you know… kept her mouth shut and the Mursaat wouldn’t have been any the wiser, probably just chilled in their pocket dimension and wouldn’t have tried to kill the chosen ones.

Presuming that the mursaat didn’t know that ancient enemies were out to kill them.

Keep in mind that they’ve fought titans before – so have seers and Forgotten. The titans are said to be as old as the Forgotten, even.

Swizzle.7982:

Then there’s the whole problem of the titans. Was it ever actually explained why the titans tried to kill the Mursaat?

Explicitly? No. But we know they were ancient enemies.

Swizzle.7982:

But regardless, should we really be allying with a Dragon who, just to get her genocidal jollies, creates a plan to set free the minions of an insane god? Surely that’s a worse crime? The titans didn’t just kill Mursaat, they killed humans and dwarves too. The Mursaat only killed, essentially, in their own self defence, Glint killed for revenge.

To be fair, Glint didn’t foresee how devastating the titans would be, but she did foresee that the players would close the gate before the full potential of the titan threat could be unleashed.

And I wouldn’t say that starting a war which wiped out almost all of an entire race and keeping up a portfolio of godhood while subjugating another species (and killing amongst said subjugated species at random) is “in their own self defense”.

Swizzle.7982:

The Seer/Mursaat war occurred after the Mursaat had fled.

While we don’t have an exact date, we do know that the war occurred before the mursaat fled the world. We know this from Arah explorable – talk to Randal Graystone, who states that the mursaat betrayed the allied races, nearly wiped out the seers, and fled the world.

Swizzle.7982:

It doesn’t seem likely that the Mursaat really had any reason to return to this world, they only did so to stop the prophecy and save themselves. The Seers were most likely the instigators of the war.

Uh…

Why would you return to a world from the Mists in order to prevent a group of beings hostile to your race, which is prophecized to eliminate you, from entering said same world from the Mists?

Why not… go to a different world?

Keep in mind that the mursaat returned to the world of Tyria “shortly” before GW1’s events per Scholar Yissa.

draxynnic.3719:

Mursaat had a lot of problems. Not least being: Would we trust them? Humans really shouldn’t because of the whole Kryta thing, and due to the aftermath of that, the mursaat have no reason to like humans and every reason to want to see them harmed. It’d be Palawa Joko all over again, except that at least in Palawa’s case, we knew that Palawa would be just kittened if Nightfall wasn’t stopped as the rest of the world.

That isn’t the case with the mursaat. They’ve already abandoned their former allies before, taking their own escape route from the reach of the Elder Dragons. Why would they risk their remaining lives staying to help (former) enemies when they can just leave again? Assuming there are even enough of them left to matter?

(Which, of course, raises another problem: Enough of what we did in GW1 was undone or shown to be futile in GW2. Having the mursaat come back in number would be doing that all over again.)

Well, the past didn`t have to be futile.
The Mursaat wanted to strenghten their position in the world. Maybe even for the supposed comeback of the EDs.
Of course they trampled on the humans at that time, using them as disposable tools, because they saw a much bigger risk at the horizon.
I never said they were benefactors or good guys.
However we still have some MIA if I am not mistaken.

Let`s say we killed most of them and only few remained. Let`s say they only got some White Mantle remnants care to them. Let`s say the few remaining aren`t strong enough to fight, but could teach the White Mantle their ways. Having them raise in power to do, what they weren`t able to. Fighting the EDs effectively.

They would theoreticly be a strong force, but also an unstable ally (with the whole human centric life and the Sylvari are evil thing going on).

Sure, it would be a continuation of their mistake from the past, but maybe to a better extend. Maybe to the point we could redeem them.

btw. isn`t Glint doing something similiar to what the Mursaat did? Gathering loyal followers, sucking out/ converting their high magic potential into something to use later?
Sure, their Souls and Minds are still there, but we live in a world where brainwashing is certainly a thing and Glint might have needed someone to run the whole show.

I don`t think we have here our own Space Marines/Juggernaut/Golem/Angel/Alphons Elric Army, without a price.

Dead armies, be it ascended or revived, always come with an annoying price.

@Konig
I am more thinking in a similiar way. ED Energy seems to look for a new host body, after the old one dies. Or at least one being is able to gain control over it. This can be assigned to some kind of parasitic/symbiotic relationship. Maybe with the world itself.
Nevertheless, ignoring the being in charge, they are magic energy in some kind of body.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m sorry perhaps I didn’t explain properly.

You have resources like aluminum which are infinite because the can be recycled 99% and so for the lifetime of the universe we should always have aluminum.

That’s not an infinite resource.

If you took all aluminum – let’s give it the quantity of 100 – and use it, you’re left with 0. If you recycle all aluminum used and get 99% back, you now have 99 aluminum. After doing this several hundred times, you’d result with 1 aluminum in all the lifetime of the universe.

It is by far finite.

Infinite means that it is uncountable – continuing forever. There’d be no need to recycle.

Magic in Tyria is portrayed like your aluminum example, except that you can recycle for a 100% return. Meaning that our quantity is 100, but can be “refined” (aka consumed by Elder Dragons) to be reduced; however, magic can be “recycled” (aka exuded by the Elder Dragons) to be increased. However, you will always have 100 magic whether it is in the “refined” or “recycled” state.

This is our current statement in lore. But that is not infinite.

Lost in Hyrule.2963:

Another interesting point is that the Forgotten are included in the list of 5 races that worked on the Bloodstones to survive the last dragonrise. And the Forgotten are also stated to have arrived only 3,000 years ago or so.

If the last dragonrise was only 2,000 years ago, that means it roughly coincided with the appearance of humans in Cantha. 500 years after the rise would be their first appearance in the northern lands.

The last dragonrise is indicated to be 3,000 years ago not 2,000. Depending on if you subscribe to the Priory NPCs’ claims (which state 11,000 years ago) or the subliminal history of Glint, Forgotten, and dwarves (which point to 3,000 years ago).

Erukk.1408:

Unless they’re doing an awful lot of rounding in that article, the “300 years ago” when the Exalted were created would have been 50 years before the events of GW1.

As I’ve been saying, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done “an awful lot of rounding”.

Jaken.6801:

btw. isn`t Glint doing something similiar to what the Mursaat did? Gathering loyal followers, sucking out/ converting their high magic potential into something to use later?
Sure, their Souls and Minds are still there, but we live in a world where brainwashing is certainly a thing and Glint might have needed someone to run the whole show.

There’s three major differences.

1) Glint didn’t do this to save herself. Mursaat did – and not only that, but to rule as gods.
2) The Exalted were volunteers. The mursaat took unwilling sacrifices.
3) The Exalted still live, the Chosen did not.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I don’t understand how the Mursaat would just let the Forgotten start to build a city in what is essentially their territory

Do note that the Forgotten have had a presence in the Maguuma since the very beginning. The Prophecies manuscripts mentions that they could be found in “the Tarnished Coast in the west” when describing how widely spread on the continent they were.

Also note that the article never mentions a timeline on when Tarir the city was founded, only that the Forgotten did it. For all we know it could be thousands of years old. All we know is that the Exalted themselves were created some 50 years before GW1.

Ayrilana.1396:

See attached for what we saw in-game as a city of gold.

Now I’m curious. How does the Golden City architecture compare to the ruins the Asura found when they arrived on the surface (e.g. in Rata Sum)? Could they be old Exalted structures?

Erukk.1408:

Mike.7263:

While reintroducing the Mursaat might have been lorebreaking, what we got was far worse: a race of glowing floating magical exalted goody-two-shoes Marty Stus.

Considering we barely know anything about them other than their history and motives, it’s horribly early to start throwing “Mary Sue” around.

Considering the Exalted supposedly retain their personality and memories from their time as humans, I’d say they are anything but Mary Sue’s and have very strong potential for proper character and flaws and everything that comes with being a human.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m sorry perhaps I didn’t explain properly.

You have resources like aluminum which are infinite because the can be recycled 99% and so for the lifetime of the universe we should always have aluminum.

That’s not an infinite resource.

If you took all aluminum – let’s give it the quantity of 100 – and use it, you’re left with 0. If you recycle all aluminum used and get 99% back, you now have 99 aluminum. After doing this several hundred times, you’d result with 1 aluminum in all the lifetime of the universe.

It is by far finite.

Infinite means that it is uncountable – continuing forever. There’d be no need to recycle.

Magic in Tyria is portrayed like your aluminum example, except that you can recycle for a 100% return. Meaning that our quantity is 100, but can be “refined” (aka consumed by Elder Dragons) to be reduced; however, magic can be “recycled” (aka exuded by the Elder Dragons) to be increased. However, you will always have 100 magic whether it is in the “refined” or “recycled” state.

This is our current statement in lore. But that is not infinite.

Lost in Hyrule.2963:

Another interesting point is that the Forgotten are included in the list of 5 races that worked on the Bloodstones to survive the last dragonrise. And the Forgotten are also stated to have arrived only 3,000 years ago or so.

If the last dragonrise was only 2,000 years ago, that means it roughly coincided with the appearance of humans in Cantha. 500 years after the rise would be their first appearance in the northern lands.

The last dragonrise is indicated to be 3,000 years ago not 2,000. Depending on if you subscribe to the Priory NPCs’ claims (which state 11,000 years ago) or the subliminal history of Glint, Forgotten, and dwarves (which point to 3,000 years ago).

Erukk.1408:

Unless they’re doing an awful lot of rounding in that article, the “300 years ago” when the Exalted were created would have been 50 years before the events of GW1.

As I’ve been saying, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done “an awful lot of rounding”.

Jaken.6801:

btw. isn`t Glint doing something similiar to what the Mursaat did? Gathering loyal followers, sucking out/ converting their high magic potential into something to use later?
Sure, their Souls and Minds are still there, but we live in a world where brainwashing is certainly a thing and Glint might have needed someone to run the whole show.

There’s three major differences.

1) Glint didn’t do this to save herself. Mursaat did – and not only that, but to rule as gods.
2) The Exalted were volunteers. The mursaat took unwilling sacrifices.
3) The Exalted still live, the Chosen did not.

Then again, can we trust Glint? What if she just wants to safe her child and help it attain EDs power for her own selfish desires? Who says, that we don`t exchange one evil against another.

Yes, the Mursaat were evil. However if history as told us, people can change. A reduced group of people might not want to do the same mistakes then their predecessors.
Sure they played gods, but mostly because they could. Humans were their tools. However how much do we really know about what happened? Do we really know everything?

How willing are the Exalted really? Glint was able to use some mesmer magic if I am not mistaken. She is also very powerful. We can easily bring brainwashing into her cause as well.

The Mursaat also had volunteers. They had people who believed and died for them willingly. Even if they were mislead, they still choose to do so, even for the wrong reasons.

We only saw a glimps of what really happened.

It wouldn`t be the first time, we see something that was supposed to be completly evil, to be not so. I mean, just look at the Charr.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The mursaat aren’t guilty of cowardice. They’re guilty of treachery and genocide. Multiple times – because the moment they returned to the world, they just did the same thing again: attempt genocide and be treacherous.

So are Humans and the Charr, and the Asura have in the past tried to wipe out the Skritt too. But I guess it only matters if you kitten off an Elder dragon champion? Then you can say goodbye to your entire race.

The Mursaat didn’t take over Kryta because they got off on taking over and being worshipped as gods, they took over as a means of getting rid of the chosen ones – To save their own race. Otherwise why not take Orr, Ascalon and Elona too? The were doing something very specific, sacrificing the chosen, charging soul batteries and keeping the door to the Titans closed. That doesn’t scream evil, misguided maybe, but they weren’t doing it out of malevolence but a desire to preserve their race.

As for the war in Kryta, most of the Mursaat were dead, the rest were being hunted down, again it seems like their main motivation was self preservation. I don’t recall Queen Salma ever trying to secure peace with the Mursaat, in fact wasn’t it she who declared war on the White Mantle? With the prophecy over it doesn’t seem like there would be any need for the Mursaat to keep sacrificing the chosen.

So when Glint/Humans/Charr kill people for the hell of it it’s fine, but when the Mursaat do it to save themselves it’s wrong? Sounds like jingoism and racism to me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m sorry perhaps I didn’t explain properly.

You have resources like aluminum which are infinite because the can be recycled 99% and so for the lifetime of the universe we should always have aluminum.

That’s not an infinite resource.

If you took all aluminum – let’s give it the quantity of 100 – and use it, you’re left with 0. If you recycle all aluminum used and get 99% back, you now have 99 aluminum. After doing this several hundred times, you’d result with 1 aluminum in all the lifetime of the universe.

It is by far finite.

Infinite means that it is uncountable – continuing forever. There’d be no need to recycle.

Magic in Tyria is portrayed like your aluminum example, except that you can recycle for a 100% return. Meaning that our quantity is 100, but can be “refined” (aka consumed by Elder Dragons) to be reduced; however, magic can be “recycled” (aka exuded by the Elder Dragons) to be increased. However, you will always have 100 magic whether it is in the “refined” or “recycled” state.

This is our current statement in lore. But that is not infinite.

From this statement I take it you mean that magic in tyria is a closed system. But the only way to recycle it 100% is with dragons consuming it.

So in the event of no more dragons we could get to 0 from overspending and have no way to reduce and recycle the magic trapped in living/non living things.

But this causes so many questions.

• How would Glint 2.0 solve any of this? The magic is still bound in living things. And the extraction process that we know of causes death.

• Why would they call exalted immortal when they run on magic and magic is finite?

• Revenants, ritualists, and rangers draw on energies outside the dragons reach. Do they constantly suck magic out of the world?

• Are mesmers and guardians more eco-friendly because they bind magic to temporary forms? Can one expect the magic of their creations to return instantly to the environment? This in contrast to the magically created water of elementalists.

More importantly for me at least:

• How did they not think that magic was a temporary resource when they acknowledged that water is, and elementalists can create water with magic?