The Extinction Theory Reexamined
Given that the Elder Dragons seem to extend the physical state of their minions, it seems unusual that any of them would dispatch armies against uncorrupted Tyrians, save for perhaps Zaithan. (For him, the easiest way to corrupt forms was to interrupt the final rest of the dead and what better way to do that than with war? Zaithan’s consumption of magic is interesting in this regard since it suggests that he appropriated magic not only from first the death of a being (that is, the parting of spirit from body measurable physiologically) but also from the reanimated existence of that same being. This is a model unique to Zaithan, nor is it without merit to speculate thus as the Asuran theorize that we embody magic, suggesting that the creation of a Tyrian may consume magic and the death of a Tyrian may in turn release it.)
Physical augmentation is only one of the exercises of Elder Dragon magic. At least two of the Elder Dragons appear to actually be creating living beings. Indeed, all of the Elder Dragons appear to have something to do with the life cycle of beings. In particular, the most obvious contenders for fulfilling the role of creators amongst the Elder Dragons just happen to be Primordus and “Bubbles”. This is of note as we often associate the most ancient forms of life (and therefore perhaps the first forms of life) with water and earth. Indeed, real-life theories on the most ancient origins of life often speculate that both water (especially seawater which is heavily ionized in comparison to its freshwater counterpart) and volcanic activity play an important role in its development. Of course, this is the magical world of Tyria and we should keep in mind that although we believe that we may know how life developed on Earth, science certainly has no answers for the academics of Tyria: For them the business of life’s origins is best summed up in one word, “magic”. Still, it is interesting to note this, especially when we consider that Primordus has modelled a great many of his armies after three different forms of being: Crabs, Harpies and Trolls. To form his minions after these creatures Primordus must have 1) found these forms useful for combat and 2) assimilated the blueprints for them from somewhere. Certainly, it seems straightforward to consider that the blueprint for trolls was taken from the trolls we commonly encounter throughout Tyria that dwell under the ground, where they are among the first to encounter Primordus’s minions. Explaining how harpies and crabs were assimilated is too vague for definites.
So what is my point? Precisely this, that it is unreasonable to consider that the Elder Dragons were directly behind the extinction of previous species of Tyrian creatures when the overwhelming theme of their corruption is not the taking of life, but rather the preservation of forms of life and even the creation of life. For now then, an articulate answer as to how the Elder Dragons killed off other races is outstanding.
Did a quick skim over your post, will get more into it later. Some things that sparked my interest though:
Think of the dinosaurs. Where did they all go and who is most likely responsible for their demise?
I think Giganticus Lupicus are exactly that – the GW-version of dinosaurs.
In particular, I wanted to categorize the nature of (at least some) Elder Draconic corruption:
Very, very, interesting… My over-analytical mind says we are missing an ED under one of categories. If it’s Mordremoth we are talking about maybe she reanimates rotten plant matter (e.g. the champion rotting oakheart in Queensdale); again bringing to question this Sylvari immunity that they all seem too overconfident and flippant about.
That would give GW2 a nice over-arching theme of undead.
Auroraglade
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working.
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working.
I enjoyed reading this at the very least, and you seem to have some good philosophy touch notes. I’ll be following this thread though I’ve nothing to contribute immediately.
I ? Karkas.
Interesting, but I must say, I wouldn’t consider it “preservation” to be a Dragon Minion. Most Dragon Minions lose any independent will of their own (with a few possible exceptions, such as Labwan the Deceiver). All that is “preserved” is their flesh, and even that is often twisted out of shape.
A species is more than its flesh. It is everything else that the Elder Dragons destroy— the culture, the independent will, the life. The flesh remains, though not “preserved”, rather, “co-opted” or stolen.
Primordus creates life-forms, but the life-forms he creates are created to be soldiers. Once created, by his will, they kill and invade. The diversity and freedom of life has only suffered by his intervention.
Elder Draconic corruption involving some form of crystallization:
1) The corruption of Jormag (the formation of water crystals)
2) The corruption of Kralkatorrik (the formation of mineral crystals, or just as possibly one particular mineral, although not water crystals)Elder Draconic corruption involving the formation of living beings:
1) The corruption of “Bubbles”
2) The corruption of Primordus
“Bubbles” has not corrupted anyone/anything yet.
Primordus does not corrupt, he creates his destroyers from lava and rock.
It’s actually Jormag and Kralkatorrik that corrupt living creatures. (The crystallization by the way seems highly coincidental.)
At least one Giganticus Lupicus survived the last rise of the Elder Dragons – you’ve probably met it in Arah explorable. For this creature, service to Zaithan prolonged it’s life.
I’d argue that undead does not mean alive. The “Giganticus Lupicus” is not actually a member of the species anymore, just like a zombie wouldn’t be considered a human anymore. Zhaitan didn’t prolong it’s life, it killed it and reanimated its corpse.
Furthermore, the Elder Dragons are not the only threat to the survival of creatures residing in Tyria: Think of the dinosaurs. Where did they all go and who is most likely responsible for their demise?
Just because something isn’t the only threat, does not mean it is not a threat. That would be like saying “We shouldn’t worry about criminals in Europe because there are children starving in Africa.”
Also, how is the absence of dinosaurs proof that the ED are not the only evil? They might have something to do with it. They might not. No difference either way.
For those who submit to the Elder Dragons there are rewards to be had. Jormag is the most commonly cited example of an Elder Dragon rewarding his minions for their service. Although rewards may not appear to be as forthcoming on the part of Jormag’s fellows, nonetheless it is entirely reasonable to conclude that the other Elder Dragons do reward the loyalty of their minions. One of the most obvious rewards granted is biological augmentation: For some, it is immediate; for others, it is a lengthy process. In every case, rather than the immediate death of the corrupted, the life of (at least) the body of the host is prolonged – that is, some form of immortality is obtained. (When I say “immortality” I am referring to the extension of one’s physical existence, as much as one’s ethereal state.)
The greed for power is what drives the Son of Svanor to Jormag, yes. But while at first they grow stronger, they are soon consumed by the power of the dragon. The human they once were dies and their physical form mutates to become a vessel for the will of the Dragon.
The person – regarding all interpretations of personhood – is dead. There is no prolonged life, no immortality. The dragons don’t have to care about loyalty, because the corrupted are already under their full control. The corrupted do not make decisions, the dragon does.
Lastly: Long term the rise of the Elder Dragons is not bad. Balance of magic on Tyria is important for everything living of the planet. Short term however they are threatening to wipe out entire civilizations, so yes, to everyone living on Tyria they are evil.
Primordus does not corrupt, he creates his destroyers from lava and rock.
Not entirely correct.
Primordus can and does in fact corrupt, as stated in the interview linked below. He creates some minions by encasing living creatures (like trolls) in layers of lava and rock.
Did a quick skim over your post, will get more into it later. Some things that sparked my interest though:
Think of the dinosaurs. Where did they all go and who is most likely responsible for their demise?
I think Giganticus Lupicus are exactly that – the GW-version of dinosaurs.
In particular, I wanted to categorize the nature of (at least some) Elder Draconic corruption:
Very, very, interesting… My over-analytical mind says we are missing an ED under one of categories. If it’s Mordremoth we are talking about maybe she reanimates rotten plant matter (e.g. the champion rotting oakheart in Queensdale); again bringing to question this Sylvari immunity that they all seem too overconfident and flippant about.
That would give GW2 a nice over-arching theme of undead.
Dinosaurs existed in GW1 time… and were very alive.
There’s every possibility that the dinosaurs are still alive and well. I suppose that I was merely pointing out that although scholars of Tyria may consider the Elder Dragons directly responsible for the demise of the Giganticus Lupicus, this does not mean that they are entirely correct. Most likely the source of their information is either Jotun oral or written tradition. Much has been made of the accuracy of the Jotun oral tradition – there are members of this forum who argue that the oral tradition is unreliable and should not be used to arrive at any definite conclusions about Tyrian history. For this reason, it is unlikely that the Jotun oral tradition is the primary source of information regarding the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus. More likely, the Jotun stelae is the source. (It remains to be seen however, whether a speaker of the Jotun tongue (i.e. a Jotun) was consulted in the translation of these stelae, which introduces new dynamics to the argument regarding the reliability of any history penned by the Jotun.) The point, of course, is that the history of the demise of the Giganticus Lupicus is not set in stone – indeed, the persistence of the genetic integrity of the Jotun throughout multiple cycles of the Elder Dragons hints that alternative explanations as to the extinction of species may be in order.
As I see it, we have two immediate explanations for the way in which the Elder Dragons destory species: 1) Extermination. Primordus, for example, seems to just kill things and may (along with the other Elder Dragons, of course) have simply hunted the Giganticus Lupicus down one by one. If the Giganticus Lupicus were like the giants are now, there may not have been that many of them and they may not have been able to hide themselves easily. 2) Corruption interferring with the genetic integrity of the species – that is, Elder Draconic corruption renders those corrupted infertile.
What further frustrates the accuracy of the conclusion that the Elder Dragons have corrupted to extinction species of creature is the mystery surrounding the nature of the Elder Draconic cycle. Consider, for example, how frequently the Elder Dragons stir. I have read a post suggesting that the time between their hibernation and arousal is as little as fifty years – an almost impossibly short frequency that would soon render the face of Tyria barren if indeed the Elder Dragons corrupt every single living thing to satiate their hunger for magic. Regardless of how long the cycle of the Elder Dragons actually is, the point is that the Tyrian ecosystem appears to either 1) withstand the constant feeding patterns of the Elder Dragons or 2) recover from said patterns in remarkable fashion. For whenever the Elder Dragons stir, it seems that a race of beings is ready to be “harvested”.